Transcript of How Do You Know When Work Becomes Trauma? Toxic Work Culture with Natalie Holder

Welcome to Notes from the Edge, where we have the conversations we should have been having all along. We talk about the things that we're not talking about. I'm your host, Lisa Lacey, writer, trauma educator, executive advisor, and author of the upcoming memoir Notes from a Certified Madwoman. Welcome to the edge. Hey, hey, my friends! Welcome back to another episode of Notes from the Edge. I am your host, Lisa Lacey, and this is the place we have the conversations we should have been having all along. Guess what? You ain't talking about it. So today we're gonna, and today our special guest is Natalie. who is an employment attorney, workplace strategist, author, and former corporate people and culture executive who now helps leaders and professionals navigate complex workplace challenges and career reinvention. Boy, don't we like reinvention in here? She has over more than 2 decades working in employment law, HR compliance, and organizational leadership, including leading global HR compliance for Starwood Hotels and Resorts and serving in senior diversity leadership roles.

Roles.

She has been inside those rooms where consequential decisions about organizations, employees, careers are made, and has provided court-ordered training in high-stakes discrimination matters. Her book Exclusion draws from real experiences involving accomplished professionals who were quietly, silently enduring workplace harm that was often nearly invisible to everyone except the person living through it, and we talk about that all the time. Today, through Quest Employment Initiatives, Natalie works with professionals navigating job insecurity, exclusion, organizational change, and major career crossroads, helping them identify what she calls the unseen path towards a more fulfilling, impactful professional future. Natalie, welcome to Notes from the Edge. We are so I am well.

Thank you so much, Lisa. It's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah, yeah. So it's Notes from the Edge, so we're just gonna dive right in. I want to talk about your book Exclusion that includes stories of high-functioning executives, and I've been in that role while silently surviving things at work that people couldn't necessarily see. So there is such a thing as workplace trauma. What does that look like, Natalie?

Workplace trauma comes in so many different forms, but oftentimes we don't want to admit to it, or we think that we are being hyperbolic. We think that we are, you know, overexaggerating the experiences that have come to us. And so workplace trauma is anything that has occurred that is harmful distressing, and really has deep-seated impact on you. And it's the experience that you continue reliving even after the incident. So many of the people who I interviewed for the book— so I spoke to over 200 professionals from a number of different industries, from law to finance to the arts— because these are people who all were performing at high levels. These were people who went to the best of the best schools. These were people who, you know, had the pedigree in where you automatically assume success. These are people who, when they found that they were not getting informally mentored, or when they found that they were, you know, perceived to not be performing well, or when they found that they were being bullied, They felt as though, well, maybe it's something that I did. They started bargaining and they started to lessen the impact of what was occurring to them.

A lot of times we think that a workplace trauma has to be something dramatic, like there has to be a shooting in the workplace or that there has to be some sort of physical manifestation of harm and hurt. However, sometimes it really is just that very tacit experience of exclusion. That makes us feel as though this is something that has been deeply rooted and also impacting your feelings about how you perform and who you are, your identity in the workplace. And so I remember there was this one individual who I spoke to who went to one of the best law schools in the country, performed at the top of his class, and he was at a major New York City law firm. And he was working on a matter And one day, he happened to be walking through the office, through the hallways, and he noticed that the entire team was meeting with the client except for him. Now, this wasn't a matter of him being junior, and so therefore, he wasn't invited to the meeting because there were people who were even— who had even less seniority than he had who was sitting in that meeting.

However, he remembered that experience. That was a defining moment for him in where he felt like, do I really have an opportunity to advance in this organization? Is this something that I even confront? Is this something that I live with silently? But it was something that was the signal for him to say something might need to change here.

And that's the better question to ask, Natalie. We're really into asking better questions in here. And the question, does something need to change here so that I can be— to your point, getting people To that place of fulfillment. And what's so fascinating about trauma is that a workplace trauma like that, being excluded, can bring up something that happened to you when you were 10. It really can. It can, it can be very sneaky that way. So, and then you do keep reliving it. It stays sticky. I like to call it sticky. If it's sticky, Then there's a deeper layer there. So it's good that it made him look at it like, hmm, is this a place that I belong? And really, at the end of the day, we all just want to belong. So tell me this, because I wish somebody had told me this when I was in corporate. physician education and a high-functioning survivor, um, and silently suffering behind the scenes because I didn't have language for what I was going through and I was not gonna say a word. So why are high performers sometimes the last people to leave?

You know, you said something very critical right there. You didn't have the language And hence, if you don't have the language, how can you speak up? How can you advocate for yourself if you don't have the language? And once again, it's a question of, is this something that is significant enough for me to speak up about? Is this something where I really feel as though I need to actually address this? And so I found in my research that more often than not, people didn't feel that they really should have, you know, said something. People felt as though they could just grin and bear it. However, I'm a big believer in grin and Berenstain Bear it. So remember that book, the Berenstain Bears from like the '60s and '70s? I know I'm totally dating myself right now.

I'm with you. I'm right there with you.

But it was this children's book in where these bears who took on human form, they always had some sort of moral lesson. In their books. They always had some sort of moral lesson in whatever they were going through, and they were very productive as a family. If you remember, they were always working and retooling. And so the whole idea of, yes, you are in a space in where you might not be able to necessarily address something the way that you want to— the question is, what are you learning from it? The question is, how is this going to make you better? The question is, what are you going to be able to leverage at another time? And so that's the grit and Berenstain bear it. And we're in the moment because I'm a big believer in not just simply getting up and leaving just because you're done, disgusted over nonsense endured. Many times we feel as though we must be like Carmen Sandiego and being on a plane and we whisk our hat off and we're just like, I'm out of here. Goodbye. I often say that's taking the leap in where you're letting gravity pull you down to a very detrimental fall.

You haven't planned your exit.

Yeah.

You haven't planned what that next step is going to look like. So I'm a big believer in getting the language. I'm a big believer in developing the language and the words for yourself, if no one else. Because with trauma, if you don't address the issue, you are likely to repeat it over and over again. I have worked with clients who, as a coach, I work with clients who I have seen making the same mistakes in different organizations, all because they were afraid to call what they experienced trauma. They'll call it stress. They'll call it a disappointment. But being honest about something being traumatic all of a sudden now opens up a whole different avenue and a path for being able to resolve and remedy, and most importantly, to leverage the moment. And so that's really where I find that when people actually do develop that nomenclature, that's when they're able to now figure out, all right, so this was traumatic. Do I want this to happen again? If the answer is no, then how am I going to plan for the next time? For instance, I once had this client who experienced something that was traumatic for her.

You know, she had been downgraded in her role. And she was planning to leave the organization immediately. You know, many times when we think people just simply stay and they will endure difficulties, I mean, look, according to Gallup, almost 70% of people leave due to, you know, poor leadership.

That's a big number.

It's a big number. I mean, it's a bigger number than when people— than, you know, the numbers of people who are leaving because they're not paid enough.

Right.

And so a lot of times the knee-jerk reaction is, all right, I need to get out of here. I need to find a new space. And in talking to this person, she was leaving an employer who was very scattered, who wasn't very well organized. And when she told me about the interview with the new potential employer, he had barely looked at her resume. He asked her about 2 questions and the interview lasted less than 15 minutes. And this was a senior role.

Wow.

And she was talking to the senior leader of the organization to whom she would be reporting. And I thought to her, and I asked her, what similarities do you see between the organization that you're in right now and the organization that you're leaving? Because as a coach, I cannot tell her what to do. Coaching is about getting people to come to their own realizations. Because we all progress at the rate of our own self-interest. And so I could sit there and I can tell you exactly what to do, but until you're self-interested, until you get to that place where you feel like this is something that works for you, you're not going to take my advice. So it's true.

It's true.

And so I asked the questions that get people to have their own awareness and their own awakening. And when she realized, oh my gosh, what had occurred to me in workplace number 1 was traumatic. Being downgraded in my role is something that really shocked my psyche, my sense of self, and my sense of self-worth.

Hmm.

If I don't deal with this now, I'm most likely going to go back into another situation where I can deal with the same kind of person over and over again. So having that language, having that you know, equipment. And I call the language equipment that's helpful in terms of being able to address workplace trauma.

I love that. Well, and step one is, is in your philosophy, calling it trauma. Just getting to that place is hard to find and to see. And I'm a big fan of mentorship. And I'm a big fan of transformational coaches. They were the game changers for me that finally got me moving forward. And so working friends out there, if you're super stuck and you're not sure what next steps are, Natalie would be a great place to go to help with any transitions rather than, you know, blowing the place up, right? Just being like, hey, I'm out of here, no plan, nothing. And then you're right, Natalie, if we do not learn the lesson in the pattern, we're going to repeat it. And unfortunately, that trauma might be bleeding out at home too. Because it doesn't just stay at work, right? Talk to me about kind of the overlap there.

The frayed relationships professionally and personally. You see them as you're an employment lawyer working with individuals. I remember when I represented plaintiffs. So in my career, I've represented plaintiffs, management, and truth in the law, I've worked for the government. And so I sadly remember my days of representing plaintiffs where many of my clients were on antidepressants. Even though we might see, you know, a big number in the news about someone who settled this major lawsuit or someone who won a major lawsuit, understand that a lot has been going through that person's life along the way through that litigation. And so whether we're talking about frayed experiences or frayed relationships with loved ones, with our partners, with our children. Definitely what's happening in the workplace doesn't have this containment for most of us. It bleeds out into what's happening in our social lives. And so for people who are trying to make that decision, as you mentioned, people who might feel stuck, I actually have a pivot assessment on my website, NatalieHolderSpeaks.com. And the pivot assessment is a very short, in-and-out assessment in where I ask questions that hopefully will unlock some thought process that may be new to you.

And I even, you know, I have a quantifier in where on a scale from 1 to 100, where are you in terms of, are you ready to make the pivot?

I love pivoting. I love some pivots. And Natalie, make sure we have the link not only to your website, but directly to that assessment. So we'll put both in there. So people, you don't have to write it down. There's going to be a clickable link. But yeah, That's a great idea because it may be time for a pivot. But why are pivots so scary?

Pivots are only scary, and I shouldn't say only, but pivots are mostly scary when we haven't really done our homework around why we're leaving and what we're going into. So many times we're thinking, all right, so it is time to pivot. But it's important to interrogate the pivot. Are we pivoting because of behavior? Are we leaving an organization because there is discord, because the leadership is poor? Or is it that there's content that's making me leave? Is it a matter of the mission is something that I've outgrown? Is it that, you know, the role I'm in is something that no longer meets me where I am? And so—

Those are great questions to ask.

Yeah. And if you're not asking these questions, that now creates a little bit more of confusion around why are you leaving? How and why is this next step really a good one for you? I already remember when I was leaving US Capitol Police. It was after January 6th. And I knew that I needed an environment that was more safe for my family. I have a young child and I wanted to make sure that I was going to return home to him every day. And even though nothing is guaranteed, I wanted to increase my chances. And so I knew it was time to start moving from the US Capitol Police. And I remember when I had gotten the offer from Stanford University, which to me was— it was kind of like now being asked to play in the big leagues. It was now being invited to play in the major leagues. I started to really question why was I leaving and what was I leaving? There was something I was finally being honest with myself about why I was leaving and what I was giving up and what was scary to me about leaving Capitol Police.

Being a senior leader at Capitol Police, I carried law enforcement credentials. Law enforcement credentials automatically are recognized by other police and law enforcement professionals. As someone who has an African American family, particularly men in my family, I enjoyed a little bit of privilege in that anywhere I went, if I was driving, I always had my credentials somewhere, you know, visible. I wouldn't flash my badge like you see on television, but law enforcement could always recognize when they would see the badge in the car. I remember one time I was in my home and, you know, some police officers wanted to talk to any potential witnesses about something that had happened on my block. And when the police officers entered my home, they had this very brazen and very authoritative stance to them. However, when they looked at my shelf and they saw the law enforcement credentials, one of them asked, are you LE, law enforcement? And I said, yes, I am. All of a sudden, he became much more deferential.

Hmm.

He became much more respectful. Can I take off my shoes in your house? It was now a matter of, I'm no longer someone who you're policing. I am now your equal. And I'll admit that was something I had to be honest about, that this was something I was giving up.

Yeah.

And so it was scary to give that up because I equated that with the safety of my family. However, I knew it really was time to leave because I needed to be in an environment where there was a faster pace in terms of being able to seek the kind of change When we're talking about professional development and organizational development. And I'll never forget on my last day when I still had the pit in my stomach as to, am I really making the right move? Is this really the right time? We had launched a peer support program. And the peer support program was something that was actually researched and developed by my office. And we supported a particular official who wanted to move forward with this initiative. Matter of fact, it was her initiative, and we just basically supported it. We gave her the resources. And when she pitched it, I want to say about maybe a year before January 6th, she got no traction. They didn't like it. Why? Because they didn't like her.

So it helps to be liked.

So not only did they kill the messenger, but they killed the message, which is something that sadly happens in organizations, right?

Yeah.

And so fast forward after January 6th, it became painfully obvious that we needed a strong peer support program. And so they didn't reach back to her to have her help stand it up. They decided to cobble this thing together. And so on my last day of work, I wanted to see how did, you know, I wanted to see the physical manifestation of the peer support program. And I looked at the room where they were hosting They were hosting it in a room that didn't have a doorknob. And what happens when you don't have a doorknob in a door?

You can't get out.

You can if you push it, but you have this circle in the door because there's no door.

Oh, it was just open.

It was just an open hole. It was just an open hole. And when you're talking about peer support, which is the, you know, confidential sharing of grief, stress, trauma, all the things that you're encountering as not just a human being, but as a human being in law enforcement. Being put in a room where there's very little privacy because of this missing doorknob, I said, yeah, it's time.

The doorknob.

I said, this right here is my signal that it is time to go.

It's time to go. I love that. But again, I love the fact that you took the time to go, what is it that I'm leaving? Why am I leaving? What is it that I want? You mentioned wanting more growth in your next steps. So knowing where we are, who we are, what we want, what we desire are all really important steps in that process. And sometimes we can't see because we're so in it. And again, that's where mentorship comes in. That's where having a transformational coach comes in, because what we do is help you see, hey, here's possibly another perspective. You're looking left. Maybe you should just take a look right and see what might be there for you. So, but yeah, leftover doorknob. I love that. Yeah. No privacy. No privacy. But it's sometimes it's the little things too, right? Sometimes it's the little things.

Absolutely. And I can support your advice of seeking out a transformational coach. I'd even up the ante a bit and say that I'm a big believer in having a personal board of directors. That if you have all of these major corporations, so any publicly traded corporation in the United States has to have a board of directors. So think your Pepsi, your Coca-Cola, your Amazon, your Google. They all have to have a board of directors. directors. Why? To protect shareholder interests. If you don't have a personal board of directors, who's protecting your interests?

Yeah.

And so, I believe that your personal board of directors should consist of the 4 people who align with the 4 quadrants of your work life. You should have someone who has been a chief executive officer, someone who served at a very high level of an organization because they do a very good job of translating emotional talk into business case talk.

Hmm.

And so, instead of whining and saying, oh, this is unfair. I don't like this. They're the ones who understand how to put percentages and dollars to whatever it is that you're looking to get. You should also have someone who is a futurist of sorts. Someone who's a business insider. Someone who understands where your industry is going. So, this was the person who back in 2000 would have told you, you might want to look at working in technology. If you're in music, think about working in technology because this is where music is going to. People are no longer going to be walking around with these CD Discmen. They're going to now start streaming their music electronically. So, this is the person who helps you understand what might be coming down the pike before most people would know. You should also have someone who's a contrarian. And oftentimes, it's our partner. It's the person who knows us best who can be a really good contrarian because the people on your personal board of directors people who are obsessed with your success. These are the people who want to see you do well.

Obsessed with your success. Surround yourself with people obsessed with your success.

Yes.

Yes.

And to find the contrarian who is going to hold a mirror to your blind spots, who is really cheering for you, that can be challenging. But you do need a contrarian because this is the person who's going to ask the questions that maybe no one else is asking. And you definitely aren't asking yourself.

Yeah.

And then lastly, I'm a bit biased. I do believe you should have an employment lawyer or someone from human resources as that last part of your board of directors. Because employment lawyers and human resource professionals, we understand the law, but we most importantly understand how it translates in the workplace. We understand how policies impact people. And we also understand how to maneuver. The compilation of these 4 people oftentimes will help to identify new and different options. They'll also help to identify different ways of expressing thoughts and ideas. Most importantly, knowing how to pitch, knowing how to pitch an idea that may fall flat if you don't have the right words, the right language, or even sometimes the right support.

Yeah, I was gonna say, what an amazing support team underneath you, and all 4 being your cheerleaders, but just in, in different aspects. I absolutely love that. And yes, my friends, always have somebody that can call you out on your BS. You need somebody in your corner that can call you out on your BS. That would be, in, in my situation, my partner too, that sometimes says, hmm, that's a little too crazy. You got some crazy ideas. I go with most of them, but that one's a little too crazy. So And I love you. However, and maybe not this idea. So I love that. So you said something that belongs on this show totally. Like everything, everything about your philosophy is so Notes from the Edgy. But you learned that fine, I'm fine, was the price of admission. So what did fine require? require you to perform professionally? And what did it cost you as a human underneath that resume?

So whenever someone often asks, how are you doing? How do you respond, Lisa?

I'm fine. I'm great. I'm good. All is well.

And that becomes I would say our automatic response. It also becomes, I would also say, our badge in the organization to them, to ourselves, when we might not necessarily still be met where we are in terms of professional growth, in terms of being with leaders who recognize us for what we bring to the organization. Yes.

In terms of even the work that we might be doing.

We might even be on the endpoint of someone mistreating us, but still we'll say, I'm fine. And so with the professionals who I had the pleasure of speaking with in research for my book, I found that many of them were very good at compartmentalizing. And sort of, like I said, they were bargaining as to whether or not if they did something else, would they now be liked? Would they now be insiders? So a big portion of the whole idea of being an outsider or being excluded is that you are someone who's not on the inside of your organization. Your leadership has their inner circle. And if you're on the peripheries or the outside, you— and when I say being on the outside, meaning that you're the person who's not being chosen for the plum projects. You're not the person who is being considered for advancement opportunities. It could be something as blatant As I had one professional who was in line for a role, highly qualified. However, the senior leader told this person, I'm not choosing you because I trust so-and-so more so than you. And so it's carrying those kinds of experiences and trying to figure out, okay, so what can I do?

And so I did find that The people who were able to take those experiences, however, and turn them into opportunities. And when I say opportunities, those are the ones who said, I don't want anyone else to feel this way. So I might go out and create my own company. I don't want anyone else. I mean, seriously, I must say a number of organizations were founded by the people who I spoke to. I also found that because of the experiences that the people had experienced, they also found that they were going to decide to be better leaders themselves, even in that organization.

And so— Oh, that's a good one. Yeah.

They decided, when I finally am at that seat of leadership, I'm going to make sure that people have the resources and the tools that they need in order to succeed. And so I found that there was a lot of— I mean, it was kind of— we were joking earlier that you don't curse the darkness, you light a candle. However—

I was going to say your mama's quote. Yes. Yes.

However, as you opine that, yes, you do need to, however, have that darkness sometimes because that's where the work is starting. That's where you are thinking of, how do I light this candle? And so, I found that the people I spoke to, even though they had, let's say, reasons as to why they might not necessarily have been able to leave an organization immediately, and they endured, they, however, endured with intent and endured with purpose because eventually they knew that they were going to create something bigger and better.

I love that. Intention is everything. When we're intentional, We're leading our lives with mission and purpose, even if we're in a temporary situation that may not be optimal for our growth long term. Yes. So, and again, you and I wouldn't be doing this today if it was not for all the darkness that we had seen and gone through and walked through and talked to people about. So it's Part of the human experience. It's going to happen. It's going to happen at work. We spend a lot of time at work. So it's, it's not like we're going to be able to walk in those doors and not be humans in there as well. So, and I think some self-compassion goes a long way too. That's a theme that's been coming up All day. You know, how many times do you see people that you work with blaming themselves, right? Does that happen? It's my fault. You know, maybe I should change instead of making changes within the organization or instead of working with somebody to help to move on to a place that will help them grow. So how many times does shame and guilt come into play?

in some of these transitional decisions?

I would say more often than not, especially with people who had been sold the dream that if I go to the right school, if I get the right grades, if I do my work, I will have access to greater positions, opportunity. There will be a level playing field. However, they were playing a very different game than the one that they were in. And so unfortunately, there is that bargaining. And I'd even say that bargaining goes to the extent of— and I'm even going to draw upon an economics term to describe this, and it's called satisficing. It's the whole idea of satisfying as well as finding something that's sufficient. And so it's not necessarily Settling. So settling means that you're not getting what's good enough. Satisficing means that you have enough to satisfy your needs as well as it's sufficient. It's not maximizing. Maximizing is when you say, these are all of the components that I need, these are all the checkboxes that I need, and I'm not going to move forward until I get all of these checked. That's maximizing. Satisficing is where you say, well, You know, I'm still highly paid, the work is still interesting.

I might not be respected, I might find that I'm not invited to meetings, I might find that I'm being paid less than someone else on the team, but it's good enough for now. Yeah. And that's another level of bargaining.

Yeah, good enough for now. But that still means it's temporary. Good enough for now means this is only temporary, and I'm going to go somewhere with intention that is going to, to use your phrase, and I love it, meet you where you're at and where you want to go. So, um, I want to get into bias because sometimes exclusion, and you've brought that up a couple of times, doesn't look like exclusion to the person doing it.

Mm-hmm.

So you've discussed perceived performance And what researchers call my-side bias, where we process information through beliefs we already hold. Let's go down that rabbit hole. Talk to me about that.

Think about the last time that you had to relate to someone. So think about the last time that you met someone and it felt like this person had been in your life all your life. This person just resonated with you. There was probably something about that person, or I should say some things about that person, that felt familiar to you. Whether it was that the two of you grew up in the same town, whether it was that the two of you went to the same school, whether it was that you two may have, you know, the same social scene. There had to have been something familiar about that person, or I shouldn't say had to, but oftentimes there's something very familiar As human beings, like likes like. If I can identify with you, if I can, you know, in some way see myself in you, if you remind me of myself when I was younger, or if you remind me of myself as how I envision myself when I get older, Mm-hmm. I can find myself to identify you— identify with you a whole lot easier than with someone who I just don't see points of commonality.

And so, in the workplace, they often say that it's good ideas, it's good hard work ethic that will get you further. However, there was great research conducted by Stanford a few years ago called the Common Grounds research. And Common Grounds found that the person who necessarily— like the person who actually gets advancements in your organization isn't necessarily the person with the best ideas. It's the person who is able to connect with the senior leader in the organization.

Hmm.

And so that is the person who gets more airtime. That is the person who gets more access. And so when you're making decisions in terms of recruitment, retention, and promotion, who to recruit, who we bring into the organization, who do I want to provide with resources so that we can develop this person eventually into a senior leader? it's a lot easier for me to find the person and to actually want to invest in the person who I identify with. And that is a bias because in the decision to support one person, you may be deciding not to support someone else, all things being even. And so as a leader, it's important to just acknowledge that that may be happening. I'll admit, I once worked with someone who I must admit, I thought that she was a walking disappointment. You know, I— we just had very different senses of how to work. However, here was the thing: she got her work done. She was someone who I could not say didn't get her work done. How she got her work done might have grated on my nerves sometimes, but I had to admit, she got her work done in a way that she was performing.

And so if you have someone on your team, whether you like them or not, you have a duty to make sure that they're not left out of any sort of mechanisms that are meant to support them.

Yeah.

If you don't want someone on your team, there are ways. Talk to your employment lawyer and talk to your in-house counsel. There are ways to make sure that that person's not on your team. But if you're going to keep that person, you have a duty as a leader to make sure that you are investing in this person. And so, to make sure that I was being fair to this person, I made sure that every morning we had a kickoff meeting. We would all do a round robin of what are we all working on. I always made sure I asked, does anyone need any help? And I always made sure that there were opportunities placed for this person to go to conferences, to take the time to, you know, invest in their own development, and to make sure that this person could continue to be an asset to our team.

Yeah. Yeah, because it— again, going back to us being human beings, even though it's the workplace, we all still want to just belong. And if we have that sense of belonging, we're going to be much more productive. So I— it's a good question. You're great at asking the better questions. It's a good question for leaders to ask, am I doing this? You know, am I, am I promoting just because of like? Am I promoting because we went to the same school? Or am I actually looking at who's going to be best for this position? And then how to handle it if you do end up promoting somebody. I mean, what do you do with the rest of your team? So, and I love your word duty. Leaders do have a duty. To the people that they are in service to, because that's what it is. They're in service to them. So I, I love that wording. So eventually somebody listening here, okay, might go, oh, I'm stuck. This is my workplace. I don't know what to do about it.

So Natalie, Now what?

What if we have a listener out there that's listening today and is like, man, I've been on the fence for a while. I'm completely stuck. I don't know what— I have no plan. I don't like it here. I don't know where to go next. What do they do today?

First, take the pivot assessment.

Which will be right down there. Clickable link, guys. We'll have it straight away for you.

But I would also, in all seriousness, question and, you know, ask that person to sit for a moment and to ask the crucial question of, what is the signal that has led them to believe that the environment has become an environment that no longer meets them where they are, that they've either outgrown the behaviors or the content of the work? Once again, you've got to be I'd say honest about what is it that's making you feel as though you do need to make a move. It could be money, and there's no shame in that. It could be a matter of realizing that you're in an organization in where it's an up or out model and you don't see yourself moving up. And so you might also be in an organization where you realize it's a boomerang organization in where in order to move up, sometimes you've got to get out. And so, you know, it's really just taking a very strong inventory of what is making you believe that, yes, I do need to move, because that really will help you to determine your next steps. Because I don't believe that we all, as human beings, we have a finite number of experiences in where I've only lived a certain type of life, I've only been to certain places, I've only read certain books.

But when I start to reach out and talk to other people, I've now doubled That, you know, level of experience. I'm a big believer in reaching out to your professional associations. I remember when I was planning to leave my first job as a lawyer, I became an active member of the New York City Bar Association, and I sat on committees with people who I was able to have the beyond-the-brochure conversation with around how do we— how did you get to your firm? Are you interviewing? And actually, that is how I landed at my next firm because of the networking that I did. So I think it's a matter of, yes, identifying what is making you believe that it's time to make a move. Because also, the move doesn't necessarily mean that you leave the organization. The move might mean that you need to go somewhere else in your organization.

Yeah, or have a change of perspective within the organization, like some of the people that were going to stay temporarily but work with intention. And do the best that they can, uh, without the resentment, without the griping, without all of that that comes along with it. So stay there, work with intention as you're developing a plan. We're going back to how you opened up and have a plan for your exit.

Awesome.

If you are exiting. So Natalie, how— one more time, Can people reach you if they are like, oh, I need some assistance, I gotta reach out to Natalie? How can they reach you?

You can reach me at natalieholderspeaks.com. And after you take the pivot assessment, I give all, uh, participants a 15-minute free consultation.

Oh, rock on! That is perfect, guys. All right, guys, you're completely set up. So if you're listening and you're like, ah, I don't know, but it's not feeling right for you. Definitely reach out to Natalie. All right, Natalie, before we let all of our guests go, we always ask 2 questions. Are you ready for them?

All set.

All right. The first one is this. In your own life, what did you perform in order to survive? And what did dropping that role, mask, or performance do for your life?

So what did I do in order to survive?

What did you perform in order to survive?

What did I perform in order to survive? You know, I think that sometimes we go in lockstep with what's expected of us. So if you go to medical school, you're supposed to become a doctor. If you go to architecture school, you're supposed to become an architect. So I went to law school, so I thought I needed to be a lawyer. And so I performed as an attorney for a number of years. And I enjoyed being an employment lawyer. However, when I finally got honest with myself, I realized I enjoyed our employment laws when they were in a position to be more proactive as opposed to reactive. In other words, I enjoyed being able to work with groups in terms of culture repair. Culture repair is the work that organizations will do, you know, when they want to stave off and be proactive about making sure that there are, you know, safe psychologically, culturally, in all different ways that they're creating the kind of environment in where people really feel as though this is a place in where I can grow and I want to grow.

Yeah.

It's also huge. Cultural repair is also the work that organizations do after workplace crisis. It's the work that gets an organization from broken to better. But ultimately, it's using our employment laws to really make sure that people understand how they're landing on each other. And so, in identifying the top 10 indicators of a broken workplace culture, that was the work that I really should have been doing. It's funny, as you use the word perform, and I guess the reason why I didn't latch onto it initially was that a big part of what I wanted to do was perform instead of being a lawyer. So I always joke with people that I could have been the MrBeast of employment law. I really could have been because when I was still at a law firm, I was creating these video vignettes that were the conversation pieces for culture repair.

Nice.

I was creating these video vignettes that visually showed what my clients were going through and really creating an environment where through this media, through this medium, that people could actually now identify who they were in the vignettes or identify the other people on their teams that they would want to have the conversation of about and learn from. And one of the videos, within like a couple of days, got to over 100,000 views. Wow. And this was back in like, I want to say, 2005, 2008, 2009. And I wanted to shut it down. I was like, no, no, no, this is not— Were you panicking?

You're like, there's so many people.

Because I felt as though I was not performing as an attorney if I was in this space of people who were now watching these videos. The videos were really meant for me to be able to travel with as I was going to different organizations delivering cultural repair. It wasn't intended for people to just sit at home and watch the videos. And actually, one of the videos is still up there. It's called Dinner at the Boss's House. And like I said, it really went to a place I didn't expect. Had I been honest with myself, I would've leaned into it as opposed to reject it.

Because you thought you had to perform lawyer instead of perform, perform.

Exactly, exactly.

I love that. 100,000 views. That's hilarious. And then you're like, oh no, everybody knows I do this now. Everybody knows I can perform. I love that. And I love the work that you're doing trying to create cultures that help people grow in the workplace, because again, we do spend so much time in it. So last question. What do you wish we were having more conversations about? What are we not talking about that you want to hear us talk about?

I think it's a time for us to have conversations around what does it mean to be supportive of other people? What does it mean to make sure that you really are, as a leader, creating the space for the people you like and don't like?

Hmm.

To be able to thrive in your organization. As an employee, it's also being proactive about your own career. It's also making sure that you're supporting yourself. You know, as I had a colleague years ago who had a great way of framing it, she said, your career is a two-way street. I can't, you know, it can't be a one-way street where the organization is pouring into you and you're doing nothing back. You also have a duty to make sure that you are making yourself available as someone who can be mentored, making yourself available to the leadership that will help you if you find that you are being bullied, being able to advocate for yourself. Also, like I said, let's call a thing a thing. If you have experienced that workplace trauma, it's also getting the help that you need.

Yes.

Whether it starts from your personal board of directors, Or professionally paying for the help with an employment lawyer, a coach, whoever might be that person who might be able to provide the answer that you're looking for.

Yes, my friends, if you, if you cannot find the answer yourself, uh, seek and find support, and seek it and it will show up for you. So, well, my friends, I'm also going to ask you guys out there, as I always do, what might you be performing in order to survive? And what would setting that role, mask, or performance down do to lighten your load just a little bit? I'm Lisa Lacey, your host, here with our lovely guest Natalie Holder. When you find the answer to that, we'll see you at the edge. Thank you so much, Natalie.

Thank you, Lisa.