Transcript of "Jon Bernthal" New

Hey guys, happy Smartless. We're gonna smartlist the hell out of this. We're gonna really podcast it up today. I hope you're ready. Put your helmet on, clean your ears, 'cause it's coming in. Welcome to Smartless.

Smartless. Smartless.

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Late afternoon. Late afternoon podcast.

Well, let's just start off by saying happy birthday to Will.

Hey, happy birthday, Will. Oh my goodness.

It's so crazy. On my birthday today, this finally— I was finally able to shit this out. I had this lucky horseshoe, this horseshoe up my ass the whole time.

Turns out that explains a lot.

Explains a lot, doesn't it? Yeah.

Now what happens now that it's out of your ass? Does that mean it's all downhill?

No, no, I'm gonna put it right back where it came from.

I mean, the horse is still up there.

Shawny, you little devil.

Will, did you get anything enjoyable for your birthday? Did your boys take good care of you?

What happened? I got a nice candle from JB and Amanda. Oh, that's nice. With a beautiful card.

$3.

I could tell by the candle that JB had picked it.

Yeah, exactly. It's— you know me, I like my candles and my soaps, and that candle right there from Jenny Kane is just about the tippest, toppiest. It's a two-wick candle. You know, three-wick, you can't really control the burn. You know, you're gonna have a side that doesn't really keep up with the other side.

You're gonna get a weak side. You're gonna get a weak side on a three-wick burn.

Sure, the wax is gonna flood the other one, and then you're screwed. Um, but with kind of like a metaphor for us, I'm a two-wick burn kind of guy.

Yeah. And so I got that. I got a nice sort of self-care thing from Shawnee, a little gift for Tiff.

Are you going to— now, don't— a lot of people just like—

geezer, Tiff—

they let the treatments expire. They forget they've got them. Not this one.

By the way, I had to take out a loan for this one.

Yeah.

Oh, geez.

Huh.

You once gave me a self-care thing.

Panic. This is—

oh, is it the same?

No, no, this is a new one. I'll get you— I'll get you this one too, Jay.

You're damn right you will.

This is tough. We can't even go broadcast on this one. It's so—

really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She just comes right over to the house and, um, uh, no, but, uh, you will— let me just say, you will not complain.

I will not what?

Complain. Well, that's not true. No, we never know about you, but yeah, you know, I like to speak. He's a real squeaky wheel. And then Danny and Dottie Dee gave me some nice books.

Oh, that's nice.

Beautiful books, yeah.

That you're going to read in one sitting.

That I'm going to read.

Now, do your boys panic about what to get the guy who's got it all? Or do they know what they're doing?

No, I tell them not to get me anything. I just want to hang out. So I got to have them.

I'm the same. Yeah, because I don't want people stressing about buying me something. I don't want anything.

I know, but people like to do it. We had this conversation ad nauseam.

It's a bad relationship.

Right, but as long as you say no gifts, 'Gifts, please,' then at least it takes the pressure off.

Yeah, yeah. But I, I always ignore that. I, I don't know. I learned at such an early age, you always show up with— even if you just go over somebody's house to visit, you always show up with something.

Yeah.

Oh, you guys still there?

Well, yeah, we're just thinking about it.

Treats you've always brought over, you know. Yeah, you're, you're never without at least a cookie, right?

Either for myself or for others.

Yep. Uh-huh. Yeah. Hey, I brought you this. Don't touch it.

Yeah, we had a great, uh, we had a great cake last night.

Oh my God, I saw the photo.

I was waiting for the guy to come out to say, do you want another piece?

I know, I know.

Like, nobody came out for a second.

The guy, they only, they, they only, they only cut up half of it.

Waiting for the guy. Were you waiting for Jen to say, can you have another piece?

Or yeah, yeah, or somebody.

I was like, did they not?

What, now what type of cake was it? It wasn't the Rice Krispie one, is it?

No, no, it was a classic It was a classic Duncan Hines yellow cake with chocolate frosting, but done in a way— it was—

Did you bring your own hot fudge, you fucking shit pig?

No, I did not. That's your move. By the way, last year, my birthday, do you remember when I brought some kind of butterscotch or something for the sundae?

To the restaurant.

Where do you think this bit's coming from?

To Tower Bar. And so then everybody's giving me shit, and then Kimmel is giving me so much shit, and then the ice cream comes out, and everybody's like, "Hey, can you pass that?" It was caramel sauce. Everybody used it, JB. It was hilarious.

Now, last night when you had that cake— first of all, what flavor is yellow vanilla? Is it just vanilla?

Yeah, it's a rich vanilla.

All right, fine.

Like a French vanilla is usually kind of—

is it an angel food? Is that what it is?

I don't know what it is.

What did you call me?

But it was fun. You were missed, JB.

It was really— yeah, JB, you were missed.

You were missed being there.

Damn.

And it was cool. We ended up asking— we, we got the kids involved, uh, Mape.

And that was the best That was the best thing of the night.

Will started throwing—

Will started throwing tables.

We're talking about everything that's going on in the world. No, what's going on in the world. And I said, you know what? And the kids were at the end. Arch wasn't feeling well, but Abe and Mape were there. And I said, what do you guys think about what we're talking about and all this stuff that's going on, what all the grown-ups are talking about right now in the world? And are you guys stressed and blah, blah, blah?

And Maple said, I say open up the strait. Isn't that what Maple said? Let's just open the strait and just let the oil flow.

Dude, they both gave really good, thoughtful answers that were really representative. Yeah, it was so interesting to listen to them.

Yeah, it was wild to look over to both of them who I've known since they were tiny and have these incredible— It was dope. Yeah. Incredible opinions, thoughtful thoughts.

They're both very bright.

Yeah, they really are.

Tell you who's bright is our guest. I am excited for our guest today, man. This is— Yeah, this is a dude that I have been such a fan of for a long, long time. And he's done— His number of credits are insane. He, uh— Sean, you're gonna like this, okay? He studied at the prestigious Moscow Arts Theater in Russia. Okay? And then he went— I'm pretty sure he went to Harvard and got a Master of Fine Arts, or he did something in there. He studied crazy theater, has done a ton of theater. He's currently in a show on Broadway. I don't want to say the title of it. The show because you're gonna know who it is immediately. He's done— Adrian Brody— countless, countless great performances in Wolf of Wall Street. He was in a small part in Sicario, Baby Driver, Wind River, and then had great, great parts in, uh, Ford v Ferrari, King Richard. Uh, you also know him as the Punisher. He's going to be in The Odyssey. He was in The Accountant, Accountant 2. He's been in, uh— I got to know him by watching him on The Walking Dead, but I loved him in this series We Own the City.

Guys, it's Jon Bernthal.

Yeah, the great— oh my gosh, I kind of got it.

Hey, guys.

Hey, buddy. Jon, what a thrill, man. I'm such a fan, dude. I'm such a fan of what you do.

This is so cool.

That's so cool you say happy birthday, Will. And I have to just—

Sing it, Jon. Sing it.

Man, I would sing it, but I'm trying to save my voice for Broadway right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Holy fuck. But Will, man, I just want to tell you how much I just was blown away by your film, man. Oh, yeah. You know, like, just such a— beautiful dive into— yeah, but just like about fatherhood and being a husband and being an artist and like refalling in love with your wife. And it just like— I don't know, it was one of those things where, you know, like I, I found it on like the perfect day and the perfect time, and it just filled me with so much. And it really was your performance. It was just so— I, I reached out to Bradley about it as well, but it was just such a human, gorgeous, uh, deep felt performance. And yeah, it was awesome, man.

So thank you, man, for that. Thank you very kindly. Thank you, dude. And, and, and, uh, I know you, you mentioned that you're saving your voice. Uh, John is currently, as you guys know, in Dog Day Afternoon on Broadway. Big hit with my, with my good buddy Johnny O is in that too. Uh, oh yeah, the best, the best. Johnny O. And, uh, I mean, how's that going, man? How's, how's the play going? I mean, it's a hit, as Sean said.

I mean, look, it, it's been, uh, it, it's so cool that folks are coming to the theater that don't normally come to the theater. I, I love seeing It's so many people that we see outside say it's the first time, not just that they've ever been on Broadway, but that they're coming to the theater. Like busses are coming in from Staten Island, which is so great. And yeah, I mean, not to be a total cheese dick, but I did. I kind of— this thing, you know, sort of saved my life, and I kind of came about it in Russia. That's really where I figured this thing out. You know, that's really where my formative years were. And, you know, theater there is very vital, and it's for everybody. It's not this sort of exclusive thing for the gentry. It's for everybody, and it's a part of everyday life, and it's enormously important to folks. So it's really cool, I think, that this is just sort of expanding the theater audience. And it's been a thrill. It's been a thrill to see how much people dig it.

Yeah, I mean, you mentioned it, I mentioned too that you don't—

that you—

that you were— you studied in Russia. And I'm kind of so interested because you grew up in Maryland, which I want to get— we're going to come back to Maryland because we're going to come back to, uh, We Own This City, because dude, okay. But you, you ended up studying theater in Russia. I'm like, how? Walk us through how that happened, man, because that's extraordinary.

It seems like— well, yeah. And what, like, what time was that? About what year was that?

So I lived in Russia from '99 to, I guess, 2001. And, and, and honestly, I mean, it's something, you know, I went to went to school to play sports. I played football and baseball, and I played baseball in college. And— but I was getting in all kinds of trouble. And really, if there was a dead end to walk down, I was walking down it and just running into every kind of wall. And, you know, I really sort of found theater on— you know, on an accident. I was just an idiot, and I signed up for a class, and I thought I was taking the class with— 600 kids in it and sitting in the back of the theater watching movies. But me being the kind of asshole that I was, I signed up for the, you know, the intro to theater class, which was just 10 people who took it very seriously.

Wait, you thought it was like a movie theater?

I totally did, man. That's what I heard. All the athletes were like, you have to take an art requirement. And I had no idea. And, you know, I've told this story before, but the first assignment was to bring in something that was deeply important to you and to share it. With the class, and I had never seen such weird— I'd never experienced something this sort of insane of these grown people talking about an object that was so important to them and emoting and breaking down. And I'd never really been around theater people before. And slowly but surely, it came to my turn, and I didn't bring anything. I didn't have anything because I was such a donkey. And, you know, but I was going to fall baseball practice right after, and I had my catcher's glove with me. So I just launched into this story about how my mother had given me this baseball glove on her deathbed. And my mom's like alive and well in D.C., but I launch into this story and I'm crying my eyes out and everyone in the room is crying their eyes out. I'm like, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait.

I'm just, I'm doing the acting, you know? And like snot was coming out of my, I was just so upset 'cause I got lost in the story. And so this wonderful woman, Alma Becker, who my first theater teacher ended up marrying my wife and I, And she kicked everybody out of that class and she just ripped my ass for violating the sanctity of her studio. But she's like, you know, you got something. And my punishment was to audition for the play. And I got into it and I did the play. And she was the one, when I wound up getting in a little bit of trouble and I couldn't finish school, you know, I said, look, this is something I really wanted to do. And I had no idea sort of what the pathway was. And she said, look, there is none. But if I were you, I would try to get into the Moscow Art Theater and go study over there. That's amazing. Yeah, it saved my life. I mean, and being in Russia—

Yeah, but what part of that for— I mean, I'll show my ignorance here because I'll bet the Moscow—

Again?

Yeah, that school is a clear pathway to stuff. But what— you didn't know that. Why would you think that that would be, "Oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

I'll go to Moscow to figure out how to break into, you know, New York or Hollywood." Yeah, I wasn't really thinking about kind of, you know, breaking in wasn't really even in the, you know, like staying out of trouble and just finding this thing. And really just this sort of blind faith I had in this wonderful woman. And it's just such a testament to how beautiful a teacher, you know, the role that they can have in a young person's life. And, um, It's just astounding. She saved my life. And it's really cool being here in New York and being on Broadway because I do feel so much of— I'm very— I feel like I'm very in touch with that 18-year-old kid, with that kid who found this thing and would have never believed in a million years you would have the opportunity to go out there, you know, in front of this kind of audience every day. And Alma is very much with me, you know. We lost her a few years back, way too young. But I think I just had blind faith in her, and it wasn't really a pathway to New York.

I didn't know what an agent was. But it was that school, that place. Wow.

Did you— I mean, like, I'm an idiot. Like, my perception of going to Russia now, I would never step foot in Russia just because of the, you know, I watched the news.

You might not come back.

I might not come back. What was it like for you then, and would you ever go back?

Oh, I would love to go back.

This was what, 15, 20 years ago? Yeah, I mean, now you can't. It was '99, so 20— you know, that's when I first went. I mean, it was a wild time. You know, people referred to it as the Wild West there, you know? There were shootings at the Duma, which is like their Senate. You know, the Chechens were blowing up apartment buildings in town.

Wow.

It was completely wild. People were really— it was still at the beginning of this—

And you're like, "And I have a curtain at 8:00 PM, people. I got to get through the streets." Yeah. But I do think—

you know, for me, you know, a few things at play. I mean, I think I sort of considered myself at the time, you know, I was a boxer, I was sort of, you know, considered myself a street-smart kind of guy. So to kind of go into a world where not just it's a different alphabet, they speak a different language, but it was just so wildly different than anything that I ever saw. And I will say, I encountered, you know, real brutality. There's a real brutality on the streets that— at that time was sort of impossible. It will find you one way or the other. But also mixed with this unbelievable, just profound beauty and this reverence for the arts. You know, there's a statue on every corner of a playwright or a poet or an actor. And honestly, at that time in my life, you know, I don't know that I would have, you know, responded, you know, really to American theater training. You know, to be an actor in Russia was such a revered, And it was a very, for lack of a better word, it was a very masculine thing to do.

Do you think, Jon, sort of coming from your background then, like, going to a place that had that, that was like, it's almost like in-your-face arts in a way. I mean, reverential and also, like, appreciation, but so, uh, you know, that it was so sort of startling in that way, and it was so in-your-face. Do you think that that actually kind of woke you up to it in a way that you might not have appreciated here in America? Do you know what I mean by that?

I do. I mean, look, I think for me personally, and again, I know it sounds maybe, you know, apologies, it sounds maybe grandiose, but I really do feel like it saved my life. I was getting in so much trouble and my life just was making no sense. And I, I, I gave you structure. It gave me structure, gave me something to believe in. It connected me with something spiritual. And then when I went over there and my teachers were all folks who kind of came up in a system where public gathering was outlawed, so for them to do plays You know, they were doing plays in subway tunnels and abandoned buildings, and had they been caught, you know, both the audience and the folks on stage would have been sent away, sent to prison. But it was so vital to them that they had to do it anyway. It was religious for them. And so for my teachers to be those kinds of people, you know, they're— I mean—

It makes me think, like, Sean, you're like, "Hey, any fun theater stories?" Like, "Yeah, I once got shot in the head for doing a monolog." Yeah, John, sometimes I'll ask you, I ask people who are into theater on the show, I'm like, "Do you have like a staple hilarious, like, something wrong line?" "Did you ever forget your lines?" Yeah.

Like, theater story, you know, like a classic something went wrong. Uh, so, but I can't imagine.

Yeah. So, those ones in Russia must be insane.

Wait, John, wait.

I'm sorry, Jason, I just wanna— we're in the theater here for a second. Jason, this is— 'cause it involves you. You're on Broadway right now. You're doing the show. The show's over. Do you have people come backstage? Go ahead, Jason.

Jason has— do you want people backstage when you're done with the show? He's obsessed with the rules of people going backstage because I hear if you don't go back, you're being rude. And I figure if you go back, you're being presumptuous. That, like, you know, hey, you're famous, I'm famous, we don't know each other, but, uh, you probably want to say hi, you know?

Oh man, how do you answer this without getting in trouble? Yeah, I don't know. I, I I—

I— We've asked everybody, don't worry.

No, no, look, you know, it's such a weird thing because I don't want to know who's there. And I feel like there's always a way that the information kind of sneaks through. I mean, Eben and I have done a thing. There's a guest list. So almost every night, Eben and I, you know, I think last night we said Barack Obama was there. The night before, I think we said— we always make shit up just to crack everybody out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

But I don't know. I— you know, I— It's a very— I really appreciate when folks come back and it's not an awkward— you know, it's really—

it's really—

it's like a hotbed of awkwardness, I feel like, a lot of the times. Even when people are— they're clearly moved. It clearly was. But you know, you're so tired and you're in a weird sort of state.

Yeah, and that's just it. You're kind of obligated to make them feel comfortable because it's your house, you know?

You're back there and you're dressed up in tights. And they're obligated to make you feel that they loved it, you know? Right.

Jason, Jason, do you think that there's a world now, like next week, if you're in New York, you go and you see, which you should go see, I wanna come and see Dog Day. I can't wait to see it. Jason, can you now, having had this conversation with Jon, do you find that you could show up next week?

Only because we've had this conversation so that when we see each other it's not gonna be awkward, we'll give each other that little look like, I'm here.

Man, I would want you to do exactly what you wanna do. Like if you wanted to come back, I would want you to come back, but if you didn't, I would want you to feel so totally good about that. Yes, no, yeah, yeah, yeah. And enjoy your night.

I just assume people want to get home, you know.

We'll be right back.

And now back to the show.

John, do you do the, the any kind of warm-up stuff with your voice?

Like, are—

I mean, do you even think about where you place your voice and how you support it so you can do 8 shows a week and all that? Because you do If you don't know how to do it, you do tend to— people tend to lose their voices pretty quickly.

Yeah, no, it's a battle, and that was the thing everybody said going in, and I know, Sean, you know it so well. It's, you know, it's like physically— that's one thing I sort of feel like I always have in the bag, you know, like the physical thing. You're not gonna exhaust me that way. This is fucking exhausting. I mean, this is unlike anything I've ever done. But, you know, if you do see it, You know, I speak in a much higher register when I do the show. And I think that that helps. But yeah, I definitely warm up. And, you know, Kate Wilson's working with us and she's incredible. You know, she's like one of one.

I just did this show a few weeks ago called The Unknown. And in it, every single night for 7 shows a week, the op— on page 1, I— there's this stalker stalking me.

Oh, my God.

There's this stalker stalking me outside of the house. And I would do the same movement every single time. I'd go up on the ball of my foot, right? I would go on the ball of my foot looking like I'm looking for the stalker outside the house. Look at this. No.

Oh no, I have a boot on. Walking boot.

I have a boot on because of the play.

You didn't hear about boots? Boots.

Yeah, because of this repetitive, right, the repetitive, um, movements that you do every single day. So don't you— is any part of your body just like feeling that? Any kind of like physical?

Well, can I answer this for you, Jon? You see, Jon doesn't mainline fucking ding-dongs. Yeah, tuna fish sandwiches.

So it's not like acting like a person who needs to be cut out of their house, you know what I mean?

His calf, his calf can, can withstand a little, a little press because he's getting over 1,100 steps a day.

Okay, I, I will say I, I try to box or go to the gym every day, and I do think It really does help that you're doing something else.

For Tracy and Sean, the gym is a thing that you do.

It's spelled G-Y-M. Oh, okay, got it.

Not gym.

Hey, Sean, what was— without prying too much into your history and your flavor of trouble that you like to get into, what was it that you found about the theater that was a bit of a—

Oh, Jay, I thought you were gonna say, like, what was your favorite kind of Coke? 'Cause I preferred Colombian. 'Cause I don't mind a Speedy brand every once in a while.

That's it. No, um, what, um, what was, like, uh, what did you find theater did for you that alleviated some of that, uh, the cause?

I found that the exact same energy that I tapped into when I was young and sort of my way of, you know, my best friends on the planet are still the guys that I grew up with. They're my best friends, and I think that we were wise wild kids. And we, we, um, and I think our way of honestly telling each other that we loved each other was, um, taking crazy risks together and, and doing things that we shouldn't have done. And I, I felt that for me, the, the very same thing, the reckless abandonment and the high wire act. I'll say like the violence, the, the, the, like, let's just throw it all away, like, whatever this is, we're fucking going. Finding that but using it, tapping into that same thing, but it wasn't landing me in jail. It wasn't landing me in trouble or getting kicked out of schools. It was actually bringing joy to people and making me find different parts of myself that I knew how to sort of access really well. But it was— I mean, again, without sounding like a cheesedick, it was using it for good. And it did.

It saved my life.

Yeah.

I mentioned Walking Dead. That was the first time that I feel like I remember seeing you on a regular basis in something. And I was like, I remember watching that show and thinking, who the fuck is this dude? He's so locked in. He's so dialed. Like, this dude is— he's got something. Was that a thing? Was that a major turning point, do you think, in your professional career? Walking Dead?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And just in my life in general at that point, I got married. Right after season 1 to my wife, who I met the day I got home from Russia. She was an ICU trauma nurse. We grew up together. She's seen the worst of me, hopefully the best of me. But, you know, she's my whole life. And had my first child in the beginning of season 2, surrounded by people who had young families, you know, doing this work, and the work still meant so much to them, and they were just family and work. Um, but yeah, I think with Frank Darabont and that show, you know, it— none of us in a million years thought it was gonna be kind of the juggernaut thing that it was. There was such humility to it, and people believed in it so much. And it's funny because if you— you know, if you put, you know, 6 or 7 people out in the woods and you say, "Okay, there's zombies out there," if one person isn't going 100% towards that fucking truth, like everything else is bullshit, you know? So the show was just such kind of total commitment right from the beginning.

And, um, yeah, it, it's, uh, I, I was just so grateful to Frank and, and, and, and, and so grateful to be a part of that show, uh, you know. It was definitely, definitely life-changing.

Yeah, I imagine. Well, it's funny you say that. Yeah, like everybody's got it. That show had such a great ability to, to keep the tension, uh, just so taut at all times. Like, you were just, like, always on the edge of your seat. And you're right. Imagine if you had one guy just kind of dialing it into the frame. Yeah, phoning it in. You know what I mean? Like, "That guy doesn't seem that worried about what's going on." Hey, John, what—

Talk about the sort of that transition from how acting sort of was serving you in one respect early on, and then as sort of your demons— You started to get some distance from your demons a bit, and it's really starting to focus fall in love with the, with, with, with, with the acting and the, and the, and the talent you were recognizing in yourself, and you started to shape some technique, I would imagine. And talk about that transition into, well, wait a second, I'm no longer kind of that guy. I'm kind of really becoming more this part of myself, and this could actually become a career, an occupation, and I'm kind of decent at this. And, and, and, uh, like, was there a point where you realized, oh wait, I'm kind of, I'm kind of all in on this now, and I don't really know how to do anything 'else, and I like that, and this is gonna be it. Let's really become this guy.' And was there that moment, or did it just kind of happen naturally as jobs kind of progressed, and now you look back and you go, 'Wow, now I am this'?

Well, look, I mean, I think that, um, I think that there's something— I don't know if you guys feel it being, you know, with everything you guys have done and who you are, but for me, I know the healthiest relationship that I can have with this thing is to, um, just to, to, to be hungry and, and, and to not really be at any place of arrival. And what I love about it, it's the same thing I love about being a dad, is that the only thing that's for certain is you're gonna fucking fail. You know, like, you're gonna mess up, and you gotta, like, you gotta, you gotta own it, and you, and you gotta acknowledge it, and you gotta work through it. And each one of those mess-ups ups, and each one of those failings is such an unbelievable opportunity for connection and, and teaching and growing together for both you and your kid. And, and I, I, I feel so— I feel like it's the exact same with what we do. And I'm, I'm again, I'm just like very, very grateful that I get to do something that I can always just— I'm always chasing and trying to get better at.

And I will say, at the time, yeah, for sure. And, and, and like right now, like doing this play, like to be this at this age and at this point in my life and still be terrified is such a thrill, you know.

It's dope.

Yeah, for sure.

It's very cool.

That's why you do it.

Yeah, yeah. But I will say, for me, luckily, um, things started to kind of work out for me at the exact same time that, uh, I started a family. And, and, and I will say, it's just for me, my life has become, you know, really, really simple and clear. It's them and it's this. And I'm very happy with that.

That's not a coincidence, by the way. That's not a coincidence. I think we all know, like, for me, I had the similar experiences. Having kids has cracked me open in a way that it's allowed me to be open to all sorts of things. And so I always believe that those kinds of things go hand in hand. And, you know, it's funny, you were saying this thing about, you know, you're going to make mistakes. And I always think about— I remember watching this documentary about this. —soccer team, but the coach is a very famous coach, José Mourinho. We were talking to the team. The team kind of got down on themselves, and they were down at halftime. And he comes in. They filmed his speech to the team, and he was like, you guys are acting like every time there's a mistake or the other team gets a goal or whatever, it's the end of the world. And he's like, the other team is going to score. Right. You're going to make mistakes. They're going to get a goal because they're trying to do the same thing you are. But the trick is, what do you do?

How do you cope with it? That's the thing. And that always stuck with me. And I sort of apply it. I don't know about you guys. I think about that shit all the time in my life. When stuff doesn't go exactly my way, I go, yeah, shit's not going to always go your way. Right. Okay. I can't fall apart when it doesn't. Yeah. I got to go, okay, now what? What can I do now? You know what I mean?

And sometimes things go— just the sort of proximity to real tragedy and and real failure and, you know, these things— sometimes life hands you such a kick in the ass that will change your entire perspective. But also, you know, there's real tragedy that I think comes part and parcel with it. But sometimes you just get close to it. Sometimes it's just a reawakening or you get close to something or you think maybe somebody's sick and they're not. And I just— I feel like it is apt— But it is so true that with each, you know, sort of failing or fall or tragedy, they offer such an opportunity. And I do think, you know, primarily, the job is now to be a parent. And you got to hold it together. And you got to show them the different lenses that, you know, that just changing your perspective, how much can be gained by that.

Well, I'm able— luckily, I'm able to show my kids a lot of failure. So it's good. There you go. I'm very open with them. Me too.

Yeah, me too. How old are the kids?

How many kids, John?

I have a 14-year-old, a 12-year-old, a 10-year-old, and then my little, uh, 4-year-old niece has come to— oh wow— to live with us the last, the last few years too.

That's great. Are any of them showing any interest in what you do?

Oh gosh, no, man. No, no, no. I mean, have they come see the play? Yeah, they've come to see the play and they're coming again this weekend, but my kids are all, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're very into sports and, and, and the outdoors and You know, and it's, you know, they have very full and beautiful hearts, each one of them. And each one of them is so, you know, such an individual. You know, it's there for them, I think, if they'd ever want it. But I think right now, you know, what I do is not too cool to them.

How do you— 'Cause I think about this for myself. I've got two girls, 19 and 14. Beautiful. I haven't had a perfectly straight line towards where I'm at, you know, emotionally or otherwise. You know, I didn't do, you know, the perfect thing all the time. But I like where I've landed, and I don't think I would have landed in this spot had I not banged into a couple of walls. And so, as I see my girls growing up and— you know, when they go through things that are not sheltered, I start to think, well, how would I react if they make a wrong choice? You know, if they— and because, like, I don't wanna be hypocritical. I like the way my adversity has sort of shaped me. And so I battle with that as a parent. You know, you want your kids to have a pristine, you know, travel. So how, you know, like, I'm sure your kids are— they've gotta have—

By pristine, do you mean, like, protected? Like you want them to—

No, but I mean, I think it's just a natural instinct. You don't want your kid to ever make a mistake. You don't want anything to— Yeah, but right. So I just, I wonder if my kids ever started to experiment with some of the risks that I went through, I wouldn't wanna be, I wouldn't encourage them to do that, but I certainly wouldn't be unaccepting of them coming to me afterwards and saying, "Yeah, I screwed up, I did this." You know, so I'm not sure what the question is, but you know, I guess, would you, how tolerant would you be if your kid kids started to walk down somewhat of the same path you did, knowing that you came out okay, you know?

Yeah, I mean, it's such a good— look, I mean, it's, it's, it's— again, it's like, these are the questions where we're, you know, you know, as parents, it's like, you know, we're— it, it's such a blessing to be this obsessed with these people's lives and their well-being. And I think adversity is such an important word. There's absolutely no way that I could do the things that I could do, put food on the table the way that I if I didn't get the licks that I got and the bumps that I got and was in the valleys that I spent a lot of time in. And so I knew, you know, instinctively, I know with my children adversity is so necessary. And how do I teach my kids the things I've learned but also know they cannot learn them the way that I learned them? Because there was so many times, and I'm sure it's the same for you guys, where this shit could have gone either way. It was razor fucking close. And we've lost people. I've lost people. I've lost my freedom. I've been in situations where, okay, by the grace of whatever you want to call it, it just went a different way.

But oh my gosh, I've seen it really not work out. And so from a young age with my kids, they were competing in martial arts. They were like, everybody needs to know how to swim. Everybody needs to know how to defend themselves. Defend themselves. Everybody needs to know how to be in the outdoors. And how can you sort of under the umbrella of safety put them in really, really hard, challenging situations where they can learn from? And I think moreover, I think especially for my boys, you know, how do I teach them, you know, in this day and age where there's so few role models out there for these young boys, how do I teach them that like, Yes, like it, like it is absolutely paramount that you are a protector, that you're a provider, that you're somebody that can be counted on, that, that people in a crowd, if something goes wrong, will you guys have the know-how and the ability to be helpful? But also equally important, are you sensitive? Are you kind? Are you vulnerable? Are you open? Are you curious? Do you not judge? Do you, do you, are you hungry for conversation?

Are you hungry to learn? Are you hungry to be challenged by somebody who thinks, looks, feels, prays to somebody completely different than you? Are you confident enough in yourself to approach any conversation but also be nimble enough to listen and to be swayed and to be changed?

I'm not, I'm not, Jon. I need your guidance. Jesus Christ, I need your guidance so bad. No, man.

But you know, it's all of it. You know, like, that's what's so cool about it. And I do feel, I don't know if you guys feel the same way, same thing, but I do feel these paths for me are really lining up where the work, at least the work that I want to be doing, you know, really has a— it really informs this. It informs me as a human being. I get a deeper understanding. But also, you know, one day my kids will look at it and they'll say, one, yeah, Dad was working his ass off, but two, you know, that there's a message there, that there's a humanity there that they see in all people, even when you play a monster, you know, that there's there's, there's a little kid in there. There's a scared little kid in there. And, uh, and, and that, that it's never too late. It's never too late to bring something out of the valley.

How in the world did you gather all this wisdom? It's in— what you— everything you just said, seriously, it's incredible.

He doesn't spend all his time watching Below Deck eating Swedish Fish, you know what I mean?

Like, he's not— I gotta cross that off my—

I gotta cross it off my list. I mean, what are you—

what are you talking about? He's out of the world, okay? No, traders, traders, traders.

Uh, no, seriously, it's— it— you're just— that was just incredible, everything you just said.

You know, you went through— he went through the—

he went through the fire.

But Sean, you— I mean, look, you— I— everybody that I know here on the— on this thing, Sean, you, you, you came— you didn't have any— nobody handed you this. This is— you had— you came from a, uh, you know, you had a single mom household. Your dad left, which we make fun of all the time, John. It's super funny the way he left. It was so sudden. Fantastic. And it was really wonderful. 5 kids, just left them all. Just one day, just gone, just evaporated.

Just tire screech.

Yeah, just like he was on— start like on the USS Enterprise, he just got beamed out of there. So, so, so, but I mean, Sean, you grew up in that, and you, you had to kind of fend for yourself, and you found your way, and you were a talented dude. And JB, you were out in the world working since you were a kid, and you had to kind of fend for yourself as well. Like, you know what it's like. And none of us knew anybody. I didn't know anybody in show business.

Well, you had like— how many, how many maids and servers did you you have to leave your house.

I mean, we ended up reducing after the crash of '87. We reduced a little bit. But at boarding school, everybody was—

anyway, it doesn't matter, parking spot for all of them, you know.

It's like— but, but the, the point is, like, you, you— I bet you have more— it feels like, John, what's, what's nice is you have real access to your experience in a way that's very— that, that you're— you stay very in touch with it. And that's great because you can kind because your kids can learn from that. And that is a thing that I try to do. I try to— Jason, like you were saying, I have those moments where I'm trying to understand their experience, where they are, trying to identify with where they're at, where I was at at that age. I have 3 boys. I have 2 teenage boys. And I spend a lot of time going, "You know, they're going through it. They're going through those years." And I go, like, "Let them have the thing. And also, don't make it about me and like, 'Hey, when I was a kid.'" Just let them have those things, but try to identify with them. Those moments. And it's not always easy, you know, but you try to do it as much as you can. Yeah.

We'll be right back.

Back to the show.

Jon, do you have— because everything I could talk to you about, all this stuff you were just talking about, forever. I love talking about—

don't give me another—

Jon, do not give me another— he's going to try to go side chat.

He's going to try to go side No, now do your kids get—

do your kids feel like Dad is overwhelming with all of those kind of, uh, teachings and kind of parenting, or do they actually listen to what you're saying?

I'm not sure, you know. I'm not sure. Look, I, I, you know, like, I took my oldest son boxes. I'm his trainer. I coach my, you know, I coach them in football, and I, and, and I, I've coached them in basketball since they were young. Um, you know, I coached my daughter. I The thing that I know they see is what I saw in my dad. And, you know, my dad was the guy that when people in the neighborhood, people around D.C., my friends, they all had their own relationships with my dad. When they were in trouble, they went to my dad. He was their coach. He was the guy that he'd call them straight. You know, he wouldn't bullshit them. He'd help them. He always had everybody's back. Back. Yeah. Um, and he wouldn't judge. He'd be, let's, let's, let's work through this, let's get through this, and then we'll deal with the judgment and all that shit later. But he was a guy that could really be depended on. And so I think my kids have seen that, you know, I have real relationships. You know, we, we live in, you know, this small town of, you know, we live in Ojai and we've been there 15 years.

I love Ohio. It's such a small— yeah, it's beautiful. And it's, it's a beautiful community where that you still can, you know, raise other kids. You know, you parent other people's kids. You know, kids come to me and, you know, I teach them how to box. I've been coaching football there for the last 6 years. And, you know, we have a theater there where the kids come. And so I think that the one thing my kids know is that it's not— I'm sort of the same with all of them. And if a kid comes to me, it doesn't matter if he's my kid or your kid, you know, I really, really I want to give them whatever I can give them with, with while saying, look, I don't have the fucking answers. Like, I, I hit every wall you can hit, right? But like, it's never too late. And let your parents love you, you know, whether you're, you know, whether you're, whether they left or not, whether they're incarcerated or not, they love you.

So, Sean, by the way, he started, he started a theater, uh, basically like a theater and a theater festival in up in Ojai. Is that right?

Oh, I didn't, I didn't know that. Yeah, that's cool.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's just, you know, in, in the town, it's, it's, it's, it, it, the town has given me so much and I love it. And, and, um Since my first exposure to it, you know, I saw something in the young people in that town, you know, 10, 15 years ago where there was such sturdiness and such grace and kindness. It's yes, sir, no, ma'am, but there's nothing repressed or suppressed. The kids are curious. There's a really strong onus of the young people in Ojai to get out, go see the world, go experience things, and then come back and raise your family there. And it's a really beautiful community. But I will say, over the past, you know, 5, 10 years especially, so many folks have moved up there. And culturally, it's really a place in conflict because the tipping point has kind of happened. You know, we see it in big cities all the time. Definitely happened in D.C. where I grew up. But, you know, in Ojai, it's really gotten bad. Gotten to a place where, you know, the public school there, which was a real bastion of public education, has really suffered because of the influx of Angelenos that have come up there.

And so I just— I love that school. I love these kids. I love these institutional Ojai families. So we built a theater in an old defunct school building. That's so cool. That is dope. And all proceeds go to the public school theater department. And, you know, we were able to raise— That's amazing.

Amazing. Yeah, it was really cool. Sean's agreeing to do a show there next year. It's great.

Good for you, Sean. What an agreement. What a way to agree to something.

You know, Will always makes fun of me because whenever I go to a party or a dinner, I want to leave right away. And I'm like, I learned it from my dad.

Oh, good shot. Look who jumped on. Look who jumped on. I did teach you something. Now, you mentioned DC and Maryland, and I want to get to— because it was one of the— For me, it was a show that really— I thought, like, wow, it really fucking just blew me away when you played— was it Wayne Jenkins? Yeah, yeah, on We Own This City. Did you guys see that on HBO? This David Simon show? It's unbelievable. And what's cool is now kind of just talking to you, I understand you— I can see that, like, you brought some of your own knowledge of all that kind of stuff and, like, sort of the dark are guys who ended up staying on the wrong track or got on the wrong track and never got off in this really— I mean, Wayne is a very compromised character, right? And he does— And I think that somewhere along the line, when he started, he thinks he's doing the right thing, right? Like, he thinks he's fighting in this, but he actually ends up sort of going rogue or bad or whatever. But he sees himself not as doing that.

Anyway, it's a very interesting— It's a very complex portrayal, and I love that show. I mean, that must— Tell me about working with David Simon and what that experience was like. It's excellent, man. Thanks, man.

I appreciate it. That one is my heart. And, you know, it was such a thrill and an honor for me. I think first and foremost, you know, at that time, in the wake of Freddie Gray and in the midst of George Floyd and everything that was going on in this country, and for me just being so— I think naturally, based on people in my life and based on my own experience, I'm so revolted by the flag waving in this country, the people on either side of the polls just waving their flag full of rhetoric, but they've never been in the valleys. They've never been in the situation where they're actually rubbing elbows with the other side. So you can't— there's no access to recognizing decency in each other. There's no access for empathy. There's no access for access to friendship or for any level of understanding because you're just staying on your mountaintop, you know, from the— you know, just waving your flag. And so for me to go into this project, you know, that— you know, in Baltimore, which is sort of like right in the tip of the spear of race and policing at that time, you know, and get this front row ticket and also just to have the access coming in sort of with the street cred of David Simon and how much The Wire where, you know, in that city, that Wire for both the guys on the street, the people in the community, and for the police, like, that is, like, required watching.

Like, the cops that I know in Baltimore, they watch that every year to remind them that it's not personal, it's business.

And— You guys gotta see it, yeah. I would love to. You've seen The Wire, right? You guys have seen The Wire, right?

Yeah. Not yet. Yeah, yeah.

So for me to kind of go in there like that, you know, I got to go— you know, I rode out with those guys every night for 3 straight months. Months and went on SWAT raids with the county SWAT team and the city SWAT team, but got to know Wayne, got to know that whole unit of the Gun Trace Task Force. So I made unbelievable friends and I was able to see— I'm just so grateful to really see it in that way. But I think more than anything else, man, and look, he was considered the most corrupt, the most vicious, the most sort of vile you know, police officer in the history of that city. So to go into the police department and say, hey, I want to ride out with you guys, I want to be around you guys to research this, this very, very ugly chapter of their life. I learned quickly, you know, with policing, you know, how other than the victims and the community that are just drastically devastated by corrupt policing, it's also good cops are are just— are terrorized by it. And their careers are completely destroyed by it.

And their safety on the street is totally upended by it as well. But I think mostly, you know, for me, the key for me was how do you play this guy and not just play him as a monster? How do you find, you know, some sort of— And it was interesting, man, because every single person who knew Wayne— and it was the first thing I said to him when I first met him— Everybody who talked to him said, you know, even if he was in the middle of robbing a drug dealer or, you know, shaking a guy down, making a false arrest, no matter what it was, if any of his kids needed him at any point, if there was ever an issue with the kids, he would run home immediately. And it really hit me, you know, how can you engage in such corruption knowing that most likely this is going to have a bad end because criminality almost always does. Always ends bad. How can you be that attuned to your family and, and, and you're really doing one to support your family because you feel like you're not getting paid what you deserve?

But, but, but that sort of conundrum and dichotomy, you know, really was at the crux of who I think he is and why he was so kind of torn apart. But, but he wasn't just a monster, right?

Right. He's— well, yeah, no, he's compli— Sean has— you had a little bit of criminality. Remember that time you guys almost got a ticket? Scotty double parked while you ran into Chipotle. I remember that, that story.

Wait, when I was in— when I was in— when I was in college, I stole a turkey sandwich from a 7-Eleven and I got arrested.

Are you gonna play the turkey sandwich in the movie? Hey, John. Yeah, John, I'll read for it.

John, you're such a great communicator, and you're sick. Yeah, it's unbelievable. You're such a great communicator, and you I have such a passion for community and country, and it seems like you do not shy away from opportunities for leadership. Uh, you've— you ever thought about politics at all? Do you see that ever? I mean, no, I know. No, no, I, I think everybody has that reaction anytime anybody ever thinks about it or it's mentioned them. But you look at our— I don't— I'm not asking, I don't care what side of the political spectrum you're on, but you look at our current leaders, our current Like, you yearn for someone that can communicate like you and that can have the kind of genuine passion for people, for our condition and community. And we need folks like you if you ever have the time. So you got my vote. Yeah.

I vote Chase Adams. Be careful, bro. Look, I mean, look, I appreciate that. I think the people that know me well, my brothers, I have a brother who's, a cancer surgeon, the head of oncology at UCLA and orthopedics. He's like, that guy should be running for— that guy is— yeah, but you know, I really believe that what we do can really be effective. I just do in my heart. And I think that, you know, for me, I feel most natural and most authentic, honestly, coaching and teaching and doing it in my community on the one-on-one. And I think, you know, and I think as far— I do really feel that what we do can really provide a service and can create real change and can really, you know, bring human beings together, and that's what I really want to do.

Yeah, and you do it as well as you can.

Yeah, and he does it, like I said, like in We Own This City, like, it is a great lesson in a lot of sort of really complex issues in that way. So you are being of service, well, like, through your art. Makes me smile. Yeah, you made me smile. And then, I mean, dude, you got so many cool things.

He's not getting votes, he's getting smiles.

You got so many cool things coming. You've done so many cool things, and it's like you're like accelerating, man. Like, you're just like, it's awesome. And I'm so psyched that everybody's getting to see you work in so many different ways. You've got this summer, you've got, uh, the new Spider-Man: Brand New Days coming out, uh, with, with, right, with the Punisher in it. And, and, uh, that trailer like broke every record when it came out. The trailer is so sick. Yeah. And, and, and I'm not like a huge I'm a huge, like, superhero movie fan, and even I'm like, fuck, this movie looks dope. And then you're in The Odyssey, right? In Chris Nolan's The Odyssey. Nice. Can you talk a little bit about working with that? Because obviously Chris Nolan's one of the greats.

Yeah, look out. You had to slug it out there with that fucking drip, Matt Damon. Oh, God. Yeah, sorry.

Talk about his squeaky wheels. Yeah, that time. God, it's just— what a complete— You made it. You made it, though. He's a terrible guy.

Look, I think with Chris, you know, it's like— I think with— you know, I think you get to see sometimes people doing, like, exactly what they're put on this earth to do. And that's how I feel about Nolan. I mean, I think there's these stories— again, you know, everybody kind of going in, "Oh, you have no idea how hard it's gonna be and how rigorous and how, you know, there's no—" And for me, I'm like, "Let's fucking—" Like, I love that. It's music to my ears. There's nobody who's working harder on that set than he is. And the directors that I've gotten to work with, you know, like Denis, you know, Scorsese or Polanski or, you know, there's so many of them. You know, they're all so enormously different. But the thing that I feel like is uniform among all the greats for me, I don't know if you guys feel this way, but, you know, they've done so much work, they know it so intimately well, Well, um, but there's really an atmosphere of exploration and freedom once you get to work. And I find no bigger sort of telltale sign of mediocrity than people who it has to be a certain way.

And I couldn't believe that within this unbelievable structure and this unbelievable understanding of exactly what he wanted, um, you know, he still, um, both inspired and, and not just allowed but demanded, you know, real freedom and creativity with it within every moment.

Like, yeah, do you find yourself like working with him in like, and these huge pieces that you're doing? I mean, it's The Odyssey, for Christ's sake. And is it— and within that, there's like a spirit of like, hey, let's find it.

Like, I, I, I absolutely, absolutely. And, and, and, um, you know, I, I think in these films, you know, I You know, I did this movie Fury some years back. Oh, yeah. And I did the Pacific, which was sort of the next in the Band of Brothers. And you know, there's these movies sometimes where there's a group of guys and you're all just sort of like slogging it out together for the thing and you forge these unbelievable relationships. You know, and there's a group of men in this movie that, you know, were Odysseus's men, were Matt Damon's men. And it was this group of actors actors, you know, they did 8 months in like 8 different countries. Worked so incredibly hard. And, you know, what was cool is, you know, I was only on the movie for a couple months. And— but I got to really be a part of that group for the time that I was there. And that was such a blessing for me. I think that, you know, the best thing that this offers, this life, is the people that you meet along the way and the relationships that you get.

That's what you're gonna die with. And I was so honored to be a part of that group of Odysseus's men, and that I felt just a taste of what, you know, the real long, hard slog, the adventure was. And, you know, that's my big— that's what I'm most grateful for. That's great.

And then I mentioned— yeah. And then you— and then Spider-Man with Tom Holland, the great Tom Holland. I love Tom.

I mean, look, you know, like, I got to— you know, I have a Punisher— Punisher special that I wrote that's coming out next week that I'm really excited about. And then I'm also doing the Punisher in Spider-Man. And, you know, with Tom, 'cause Tom was in The Odyssey as well, you know, I've known Tom since he was 17. We did a movie in Ireland together. I made his Spider-Man audition tape and he made my Punisher audition tape while we were in Ireland. No way.

No way.

And I gotta tell you, man, like, this fucking kid, when he was 17 years old, old, and they're like, everyone was auditioning for Spider-Man. This dude, he was like, I'm gonna get like, I am Spider-Man. And I was like, look dude, like mathematically, I just gotta be honest, like I don't know. But like, he had such unbelievable conviction and belief, and he's so fucking talented. But beyond all of it, like there is not, there is not a better guy. Like he was raised so well. I love his family. I I love his better half. I'm so proud of the man and the movie star and the human ambassador that he's become. I love his relationship. He's really in love. They really have a great thing. I love them. And it's so cool for me, you know, now, you know, whatever it is, 10 years later to come back and, you know, I spent the whole— you know, we did 2 movies back to back with each other and I love this guy. That's great.

Be happier for him. Oh, that's so good, dude. Well, we, we couldn't be happier for you, man. I mean, you're just such a— you're so great. And, and like JB was saying, you're such a great communicator. It's, it's just awesome to listen to you talk about stuff.

So happy to have met you.

I know, man. Your energy is just sick. And, and, and you've got so much going on. You've got, you got Spider-Man: Brand New Day comes, uh, July 31st. You've got The Odyssey opens June 17th. And of course, Dog Day Afternoon on Broadway. So congratulations, man. It's just such a joy, yeah.

Jon, see if you can find a work ethic before we see you again, okay?

I was gonna ask you for a theater story, but next time, I would love to hear just a tragic theater story. I have tons of them. Me too. They always make me laugh really hard.

Well, we're gonna see you backstage. I'm gonna drag Jason backstage. Stage, and we're gonna come on, guys.

Come on, get your ass out here, Willie, and, uh, drag me out of this apartment.

I'm gonna come in a couple weeks. Let's go see it. Uh, the great Jon Bernthal.

Jon, thanks for joining us, dude.

It's such an honor, guys. Thank you so much. I appreciate you guys.

Really appreciate you, buddy. See you soon.

See you, guys. Have a wonderful night. Thanks for having me, guys. Yeah, yeah, man.

Bye, buddy. Bye-bye. This guy.

Yeah, I mean, you know what, you know what I find— but he was great.

Well, I think I'm gonna put him— I'm gonna put him on the best with, uh, Alicia Keys, Lionel Richie, Jon Bernthal. For your— for a favorite, my 3 favorite guests.

Yep. He's— I agree, man.

He's— I'm— or I should say, instead of not favorite guests, favorite interviews, right? So we don't offend some people that are my, you know, some of my favorite people. Amongst your favorites. Amongst my favorites. Thank you.

Yeah, yeah, there you go. Yeah. Um, you know, though, to be— and I really mean this, and this goes for you guys too— I think you have to No, I think, you know, it's a big compliment. I think you have to be super, super, super fucking smart like he is and like both of you are to be talented, to be that talented. You have— I don't know that dummies are talented.

I've met a couple, um, but, uh, but, but, but true, you're, you're right. I think what I mean with— yeah, without the, um, yeah, yeah, but I mean, there's all kinds of different talent though too, right? I mean, yeah, yeah, you know, I, I, I think it's clear that he's drawing on his checkered past, uh, when he's playing these incredibly complex characters and, uh, tapping into stuff he knows.

JB and Sean, I— please go watch We Own This City. It's on HBO. You're in New York for the next little while. You got time at night, watch it, an episode at night. It's not very— it's so, it's so good. I found his portrayal to be astonishing. Like, it's, it's really, it's really something.

I love And you know, all the stuff that he's doing in Ojai, which is, you know, there's a neighboring town just outside.

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