Transcript of Sexual Addiction & Betrayal Trauma: Boundaries, Grief and Healing with Roxanna Johnson

Welcome to Notes from the Edge, where we have the conversations we should have been having all along. We talk about the things that we're not talking about. I'm your host, Lisa Lacey, writer, trauma educator, executive advisor, and author of the upcoming memoir Notes from a Certified Madwoman. Welcome to the Edge. Hey, hey, my friends! Welcome back to another episode of Notes from the Edge. I'm your host, Lisa Lacey, and this is the place we have the conversations that we should have been having all along. In here, we talk about the things you're not talking about. You don't want to talk about them. But we're gonna, and hopefully you'll learn something today. And today's guest and today's topic are so near and dear to me because I believe it's so needed. Our guest today is Roxanna Johnson. She is an author, speaker, and advocate whose work centers on helping women and spouses heal from betrayal trauma, which we now know does way more than we learned earlier. With faith, compassion, practical wisdom, and truth. Her message is shaped by lived experience, guys. She's been through it, and we honor that in here. Research and years spent supporting people in recovery communities.

After discovering that her husband of nearly 24 years had maintained a hidden pattern of sexual addiction throughout their marriage, she began the difficult work of understanding what betrayal trauma can actually do. Codependency, boundaries, forgiveness, and recovery. Her book, Forgotten in the With Sexual Addiction: The Journey of a Spouse, because families do not have or get enough support and education. Her book gives voices to spouses and partners who are frequently overlooked while the attention remains on the person recovering from the addiction. She teaches that healing is possible even when the addicted partner does not choose recovery, and she's got such a fascinating story. So we're going to stop it there because we were already doing the podcast before the podcast. And we had to stop it. Roxana, welcome to Notes from the Edge for this very pivotal topic. It's so nice to have you.

It's so nice to be here, Lisa. I really look forward to this.

Good. I'm glad. I'm glad. If it's okay, we're just going to jump right in and see what rabbit holes we dive down today, what people need to hear. We'll go where we go. So you call the day your husband disclosed to you this hidden sexual behavior the bomb.

I do.

So what happened?

What happened? It blew up my life. And I found, as I've worked with, you know, hundreds of women, that they all have a similar— they call it D-Day, they call it all sorts of things, but it's, it's a day that rocks your world. It's a day that changes you because what you thought your life was is not what it is because someone has been deceitful, someone that you were supposed to trust, be able to trust. And that is exactly what betrayal trauma is, is it's when someone that you are supposed to be able to trust breaks that trust in a financial, sexual, emotional, physical, or even mental way. And so it's a new science. When I went through this, betrayal trauma was not a recognized term, although it had been researched in the 1990s. It still was— it hadn't floated up to the surface, and largely that's because The families and spouses of anyone who struggles with addiction, or partners or friends, were largely in a way ignored. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but what happens is the services and the clergy and people who are well-meaning think, well, if we can just help the person who struggles with the addiction, be it alcohol or sex or gambling, if we can fix them, then that will fix the family.

And that is not true, because when you live in a dysfunctional place, and addiction brings dysfunction to the surface, It changes you, and you almost begin what I call a dance to survive.

And trauma for everybody, right?

And so back, everybody, back to the bomb. When a person's behavior or substance abuse or sexual, you know, misconduct comes into the light, All of a sudden, for me and for many others I've worked with, is you realize that dance didn't work. And that brings up so many emotions and so many feelings, and you start to wonder if your entire life is fake. And that comes with all sorts of, uh, problems as well.

Yeah, it really does. It really does. And I think, I think too, there's so much shame, there's so much stigma, even still with science backing this, that we do such a great job of hiding some of it that when it finally does come out, it's like we're almost not believed, right?

Because we did such a good dance. Yeah, most spouses are not believed.

Yeah.

And, and a lot of that— and I'm speaking specifically of, um, of betrayal trauma with sexual addiction now, um, because— and, and I have, I have no animosity for the person who struggles. In fact, I have deep honor and reverence for those who struggle and fight that struggle. Because it takes a Herculean effort. But, um, it, it is something that you can't describe about the spouse, and they have to address what has happened to them. And, and, and, but, but part of that addressing is that they have to face and tell people that their spouse or their partner or their parents are not the people that they portray themselves to in public. Yeah, that's one of the reasons why pornography addiction or sexual addiction or sexual compulsion, you know, compulsion, whatever it's called, because there's many names out there That's one of the reasons why it is so damaging, is because the person who is experiencing it has lived in deceit and their facade is almost bulletproof. And then when you add betrayal on top of that, so the spouse learns that their life is not what they thought it was, and so they become hypervigilant.

They become— they, they start checking everything. They become sometimes, until they find some recovery, they become controlling. Um, they can't regulate their emotions. Um, about 70% of these spouses, um, show symptoms of PTSD. And so what you have happening is, to the outside world, many times these spouses look like they're crazy.

Yeah, in fact, it's crazy-making. Yes, crazy-making. Yes.

And, and because this— the, the person struggling has become so good at the facade of I'm a Mr. or Mrs. Nice Guy.

Yep.

They can turn the button or, or turn the switch, I call it, almost instantly. And the other thing is they have their drug. Yeah. And, and so they go to their drug to regulate, and meanwhile the spouse or the partner has, has nothing to go to. And they oftentimes, they're so seeped in isolation and shame that even what social support they had disappears because people don't know what to make of them.

It does. It does. And I want to circle back to something very important that you said because I want you to speak to us about it. This experience of betrayal trauma as it relates to sexual addiction is a biological experience for the spouse as well. It is not just an emotional experience. From your research and from working with hundreds of clients. Speak to us about that, because you talk about the distrust, the hypervigilance, the controlling behavior, that I don't want it to happen again, what's happening.

Yeah, yeah, your world becomes unsafe. And so this, this trauma is cellular, it's in every cell of your body, and it breaks your fight-or-flight system. And so you, um, I remember being in a meeting that I had attended 100 times and having a panic attack And largely that's because you have no outlet for all these emotions and your body and your mind are screaming at you that they're not safe and they're not. And until you start implementing some of the pillars of recovery, that your body and mind screaming that you're not safe, it doesn't know the difference between a bear attacking you and this happening to you.

That's— that is the person you thought was safe is a threat now. They are a literal threat now. And so, and so no— and nobody's coming to you going, hey, you need recovery too, by the way.

Heads up, by the way.

Yeah.

And the other thing is, is I remember thinking, what is wrong with me? What has happened to me? And I was a competent adult, and actually I could flip the switch and go to work and be a professional except on the worst days. And, and so, um, you know, my message to women is that you have to find a place that is safe to share your story. You have to learn what safety is and build a safe place for yourself so you can rediscover your own soul and you can make yourself safe no matter what your partner chooses.

I love that. It does tend to make us feel like an empty shell of ourselves when we're— and when we're at the end of it. Yeah.

And, and the rebuilding is hard and it takes a while. I do not want to set anyone up for failure, but there is hope, and you will become a better per— you will become the person that you want to become because you will invest in yourself. If you do not let this addiction have power over you and the person who struggles with the addiction, if you learn the tools to show up as you want to show up, then you become the person you want to become.

I love that. I love that. And you're speaking to something that's so important because in the previous relationship, before everything came to light, it was all about the other, right? We were so other-focused, walking on the eggshells. And what are they doing? And what's happening? And whose voice is that? And whose glasses are these? And yes, yes.

And I call it the pretzel period of my life because I would twist my body, my mind, my schedule, and even my soul into a pretzel to keep the peace.

Yep.

And so when the bomb blew that illusion up, yeah, boy, I was angry. And a lot of spouses will be angry. But, but then you start doing the work and you find that that anger is a secondary emotion to all the hurt from the betrayal. But at the same time, that anger is not wrong or bad. It lets people know that something is wrong. And it, it, if they will, it propels them to begin a journey to make things right in their life.

I love that, using justified anger as fuel. And it does hide grief a lot of times. Talk to me about the grieving process of this journey.

I'm so glad you asked me that question, Lisa. You know, the spouse of any type of— the spouse of anyone who struggles with any type of addiction has to grieve. But the spouse of someone who struggles with sexual betrayal has to grieve a lot of things. And, and, um, in my book I encourage people by some questions. So is Is your marriage what you hoped for? Do your children— do they pay the price of the duplicity in your home? Is your life what you hoped for? Do you have people you can trust? Those are all things that have to be grieved. But grieving is a sorting process, and grieving is one of the major parts of healing because you go from negotiating, from being angry and negotiating about the pain, to being able to sit with it and look at that pain and accept that pain as part of you.

And it's not linear. And you told us directly, it's not always fast, you guys. So do not put yourself on some fictional magical timeline. It takes what it takes.

Yes. And, and, you know, um, Jack and I were lucky because we were directed— this was such a new thing. They— people didn't— you know, I had never heard the term sexual addiction, and pornography addiction was not yet a pop culture term as well.

No, nobody was talking about it, right?

Yeah, right. But I— we were directed. So my husband—

who Jack is, first of all.

Okay, Jack is my husband. We had been married for 24 years when I became really seriously ill from complications from a small surgery. And when I say seriously ill, I mean 12 hospitalizations in 7 months.

Wow.

Okay, a lot of trauma. Yeah. And, and my favorite definition of addiction is the inability to handle intense emotions. So as the way this life and, and my God, my higher power works, I believe, um, he sets in motion things that will bring things to light, and in that cruel, awkward way that sometimes life works. Um, Jack's fear that I would die propelled him to take something that had been totally secret for all those years, and it escalated, and it escalated into physical acting out. And that's why he was, um, he was trying— he was in so much shame himself, he thought by giving a sterile disclosure that he could relieve that shame and, and start anew. Well, he didn't understand recovery either at that point, but to his credit, he was so frightened by all of his behaviors that he checked himself into an inpatient rehab facility for 30 days. And, and they attended a 12-step meeting every night of the week, and one of those 12-step meetings was for Sexaholics Anonymous, and that is where the pieces started to fit together for him.

Well, and let's circle back to you, because again, we're talking about the spouses. So when did you make your decision about what your next chapter was going to look like after this disclosure to relieve some of the guilt that was pressuring on him?

Yeah, well, um, it didn't relieve any of the guilt when he gave that sterile disclosure, and And I actually had an advantage because I had been raised in an alcoholic home. And so when he gave that sterile disclosure, I went into shock. But there were still times that my brain was working and I recognized patterns, okay? And it was those patterns and what I believe was the Holy Spirit that blew things up completely because, um Uh, I heard in my mind what I believe the spirit saying, check his wallet, which I had never done before. I had never had reason to. And in it, I felt I found motel receipts. And then, um, the things I had learned because of my childhood kicked in, and I knew that I had to protect myself at point. So I met Jack at a park. We both had flexible employment at that time. And I said, I don't know who you are or what you are right now, but if you don't get help immediately, I will divorce you. Because, because the news was so bad. But like I said, to his credit, he checked himself in. But that propelled both he and I toward resources.

And that is something that I would tell your listeners, is because this is still a new science, but there are resources out there. Um, there's my book if you want to read a personal journey that also gives guidance for finding your recovery. It lists what most programs call the pillars of recovery, which is educate yourself about addiction.

Absolutely.

Okay, um, social support. Now, I found that in, uh, 12-step meetings that were connected to, um, SA, so it was Essanon. But I found a really good group, and it wasn't the first group I found. So I would tell you—

I love that. You have to find the right fit for you. Keep looking, keep seeking, you will find it.

Yes, right. If you attend a meeting for 4 weeks and you don't feel connection or hope from that meeting, move on.

I love that.

Yeah, find another resource. The third pillar is competence. Therapy. You cannot go to a marriage counselor to help with this. You need to find someone who understands betrayal trauma and who understands sexual addiction. Okay, that became a bottom line in, in my marriages to addicts, and, um, it became a bottom line that I stood behind because in one marriage The person did choose recovery in another marriage. He chose— he didn't want to recover. But these principles I'm talking about have helped me regain my identity, my worth, and my peace regardless of the outcome of the relationship.

And your trust back in your own intuition and a higher power, right?

And so, and that is the fourth pillar is a spiritual awakening and/or reawakening. And can I tell you a story, Lisa?

Of course, we love stories in here. That's what we're here for.

Go get it. So, and I found this to kind of be true of a lot of spouses, that when they start seeking their own recovery, they have a perception of who their higher power or who their God is that is— it can be punitive, it, it can be dismissive, or, or, um, you know, I'll, I'll use my visual that followed me from childhood. Um, I pictured a God that sent someone, an angel or something, around to follow me around and, and catch me doing things that were wrong. You know, that's not an understanding God. And so when it's more shame on shame, right? Yes, yes. I, I was in— in fact, what it did is it made me feel like somehow I deserve this pain. Somehow I caused the situation, and I know I'm not alone in that belief. So Lisa, I want to give your listeners a mantra to repeat as many times as they need.

Oh, I love mantras in here. They can do such miracle work. Give it to us.

So I want them to look in the mirror and, and say things like, I am beautiful, I am worthy, I am good. But I want them to also look look in the mirror and say, I did not cause this and I cannot cure it. It's not my fault and it's not my job. Yeah.

Oh, that's a big one too. You're— many of us are the caretakers and the nurturers and the guys.

Yeah, your spouse, your parent, your child has to choose their own recovery.

Yes, their own growth.

And the very best influence you can have on them is to pursue your own healing.

I love that. Do your own work first. And Roxanna, tell me, and I, I— have you seen it in the women that you work with when you just work on you miracles start happening around you. The toxicity will sometimes just take itself out. New people will come in that are on this newer vibration that you're on. It is crazy. I just turn and focus on you, right?

And, and that spiritual reawakening that I told you about, at that point I didn't believe that God even knew my name. And so my recovery journey I had to find the God who knew my name. And now I see God as my cheerleader.

Yeah.

And, and I also see myself as worthy of love and worthy of boundaries and setting up parameters that, that will help me to feel safe in my own life. And that, that's a big step because when I started this journey, I was— I didn't even know what a boundary was. And, and then when a lot of spouses, when they start this journey, they use boundaries as control.

How are they different? Talk to us about boundaries because that was on your— that was on our hot topic for the day.

Yeah, so So let me tell you a couple of stories again, and I'll try not to get sidetracked so I can finish.

Oh, we also like rabbit holes here, so you're in a, you're in a perfect place.

A good space.

Cool.

Okay, so I think, so I have been taught about boundaries, and I am a word person, so I have to tell you that I had 2 pages worth of boundaries, but they were all about Jack. Okay, and, and about 2 years into working recovery, I had not yet firmly committed to the marriage, but we were working at it. And but fights saved themselves for the end of the day. And this, this is common in these marriages where you let all the, the little slights and the little slips and—

oh, they build.

Oh yeah. And you get, you get ready for bed and someone says something and it just erupts.

Mine was every quarter.

I would hold it in for about 2 or 3 months and then I'd just be like, oh yeah. And so, um, I, I went to my safety net of, of women that I trusted and my therapist, and we were working on a boundary. And I happened to be lucky enough to have a bedroom downstairs. And I said, "Jack, please go downstairs and sleep. I am not feeling safe in your presence." Well, the problem with that is that when you need boundaries the very most, the other person is usually not in a place to honor that boundary. And so, Jack would say things like, I'm not going downstairs. This is my house. This is my bed. This is, you know, and, and it just—

you gotta know, you gotta know.

It just escalated the fight. And then I went to the other tool that I had used during my dance of all those years to keep the peace, was a little bit of manipulation, which is, well, I'm gonna tell your sponsor. Well, that blew up as well. And I just tell all the places that I failed to, as instructive, and also to help your listeners know that this is a, this is a, um, a journey that you will practice and practice and practice until you daily practice.

Yes, probably managing for the rest of our journey here, right?

Until your soul knows you got it right.

Okay.

And one night my soul said 'You go downstairs, Roxy.' Yes, yes. I gathered up my stuff and Jack said, 'Where are you going?' And I said, 'Downstairs.' And it was the best night's sleep I had had in months. Oh, and the beauty is, is I started holding boundaries that way where it wasn't about Jack, it was about keeping me emotionally safe. But what the beautiful part is that Jack started noticing that I was holding boundaries, and he started being curious about it. And, um, I still remember the day— and, and when you start to hold boundaries, you start to, uh, develop your self-awareness again.

You start to build that self-respect, right?

That self-respect. You start to trust your own intuition. And I still remember the day that Jack and I went out to dinner and he said, 'You're moving on, aren't you?' And he didn't mean divorce. He meant he could see that I was finding a better way. And I said, 'I am, and I'd love you to join me.' That conversation was pivotal because what happens is when you start holding boundaries for yourself and keep— start keeping yourself safe, then you are able to invite your loved one into recovery instead of demand it, because you don't need them to recover for your safety because you've learned how.

Yeah.

Okay, I'm gonna tell you another failure story.

Okay, so we like the— we like the comeback stories in here too.

Yeah, so my husband Jack, I, I lost him about 7 and a half years ago to heart disease. And so even during the time of him fighting his addiction, um, he just— hospital visits were, were part of our lives, and they were terrible triggers because he would flirt with the nurses and that— and, and then he would be angry and say he wasn't flirting. And, and it was awful, and it traumatized me. So I set the boundary that I would leave when he started flirting with nurses. Okay, we had, we had discussed what flirting was. He couldn't understand it, and so I needed to keep myself safe.

Yes.

Well, the first time I tried to hold this boundary, it was the middle of the night. It was an ER room, and it was awful. It was, it was so painful. And I stayed, and I seethed, and I became so angry I erupted. That's not a good way to handle a trigger. But then I left. That was good. But then the old tape started playing in my mind. A good wife doesn't leave her husband in the ER room. How will he get home? And I forgot about self-responsibility. And, and, oh, that's a great word.

Yeah.

And keeping myself safe. And, and I call it self-wise. A lot of times our society tells us that boundaries are selfish. No, they're self-wise. And so on that night, I went back to the ER room. It was awful. He was angry. He had, in his mind, he was vindicated because I had been awful to him. And so it took—

it was just torture for you.

Yes, and it overrode your own boundary. Yes, yes, yes. And so I learned, and the next time that a nurse flirted with, with him was actually in an ICU room, which is critical care. So again, it was very serious. And you know, by that point I had developed my best boundary, which is, and still is to this day, when I feel unsafe or demeaned or bullied or any negative emotion in my soul, I give myself an permission to take enough space and time to connect with myself again and to connect with God which allows me to make the next right decision.

For you?

For me. And so in that ICU room, I did not return until I was emotionally stable again, until I knew I had my own back. Yeah. And the interesting thing was, again, that, that Keeping that boundary allowed Jack to become curious, and it allowed us to have what I called, um, Flirting 101 classes. And he eventually understood. See, that's the beauty of recovery, is it allows you to learn to talk about just the premise of your whole podcast. It allows you to learn to talk about the difficult things.

Yeah, so things that people aren't talking about, right?

So Jack was in hospitals until the day he died, and we could talk about anything. Wow. And it wasn't—

you held boundaries lovingly but directly with skill and self-care.

And you said a key word: I lovingly detached. Yeah, because along with codependent, we can become counter-dependent, I call it. And that was my favorite form. See, that's what I saw modeled in my alcoholic home. And counter or contra-dependency is: I hate you, I don't need you, and I want you to know that. And so I both pandered to Jack sometimes, and sometimes I was contra or, or counter-dependent on him. And I had to instead learn to lovingly detach, which is, I need space and time to keep myself safe here, but I wish you well on your journey. I hope for your happiness as much as I hope for my own.

Yeah, but I have to go find my own. Yeah.

Yes.

And I have to feel safe on the journey because, Roxanna, safety is foundational.

It is. And, and I want all of your listeners to understand that if Jack had not learned recovery if he had not chosen to invest his soul in recovery, that marriage would have been terminated. And I am comfortable saying that. I actually filled out divorce papers as another boundary because there was a very serious relapse. And, um, and Jack As is common, he kicked and clawed and screamed and yelled about that boundary. In fact, he threatened suicide because of that boundary, and he— which put himself— he went to an emergency room, and so they put him in a psych ward ward for 5 days. Yeah, now that was the toughest boundary I ever held, but I knew in my heart I wasn't trying to control Jack. I kept that boundary because those relapses, those physical acting out relapses, were so painful. And I, at that point, I knew Jack had enough recovery that he knew what he was doing.

He had the tools.

Yes, he had tools. He had a support network. And I knew that it was becoming a choice again for him.

He chose not to use. Yes.

And so I told him, and this was after I let him come home after a serious relapse, I said, I am filling out divorce papers because if this happens again 'You know enough to choose recovery, and I am comfortable. I have given our marriage every chance, and I will not be able to find a good, um, attorney when I'm in an emotional— when I'm trying to recover from the emotional spiral that sometimes relapses bring.' And so that's right.

What insight.

Yeah. And, and, and, you know, I am a person of faith, Lisa, so I prayed about that boundary. I knew it was right.

Yeah.

And also, as an epilogue, because I've had, you know, 17, 18 years since all of this happened, I can, I can tell your listeners the epilogue.

Fuck, you know.

So about 2 years later, when Jack had learned to be totally honest, which was a learning process as well, and when he had totally chosen recovery, he came to me and told me that that boundary did— it was a deterrent on a time when he had the opportunity to relapse again. And when I say opportunity, I simply meant mean he was in a situation where he could have relapsed and gotten away with it.

And he chose not to because of the boundary that you set lovingly but directly, and you meant it, right?

And he knew it because I had held my boundaries. See, if you, if you say a boundary and then you don't hold it, it's just a threat. Yeah, and especially bottom lines. If you've decided that something is so important to you that you're willing to end the relationship, you need to spend some time with your higher power and make sure you're committed, because otherwise it's just a threat. And all threats do is continue the dance.

The dance has some underneath you as you implement those new boundaries too. You know, where you have your friends there, you have your, your community there. Hey guys, I just set this boundary. When it comes time to enact it, I'm gonna need some support.

Yes. So Cloud and Townsend wrote— it's an old book on marriage and boundaries, but it is a beautiful and good book. And that is something that they stress is that you need support to hold your boundaries. Now, you know, at this point, um, I had a good therapist who became my friend and my confidante. At the same time, she was Jack's friend and confidante. Some therapists have that unique ability where they do not take sides and they can be loving and honest with each party and with both spouses.

Which is helpful. Yes, it is.

And also at that point, I had what I call a net of recovery friends who understood the language, they understood the feelings. And I want to tell your listeners, I have a dear friend that I worked with that I also saw in some of these 12-step meetings that I attended. But she couldn't find one that resonated with her. She made her own. Ah, I love it. Yes, if you can't find it, make your own. Yes, I love that. And the only thing that I would tell your listeners is make sure it's not a gripe session. You want to—

yes, that will be harmful to your—

yeah.

Your cellular level.

You want to share from what I call a recovery perspective, which is, this is the pain I'm feeling, this is the situation, and either I need help, can someone suggest something, or these are the tools that I'm going to or have used to move forward.

These are the steps I'm going to take. Yes, these are the choices I'm going to make. Or, I am so confused right now. Is there a perspective out there? Yes, be clear about your wants and needs in those moments. Yeah. And I think finding the right space where you can feel safe enough to be clear about what your wants and needs are in that moment. And friends, people will show up for you.

And raise your higher powers. Yes, will guide you. So that brings up another story. So in the odd way that God works, guess who was my best confidant during the early stages of fighting this addiction?

I don't know. I will—

yeah, what a question to ask you, huh? My dad. Oh, he had quit drinking. And he was the only person that— yes, and I didn't have to explain that I could love Jack and hate Jack at the same time.

So was there a reconciliation in your relationship kind of there in, in having him as a confidant through these trials?

You know, my dad never really learned to talk about what he had gone through a lot. But he had a lot of healing. And yes, um, my dad—

we—

I was setting another hard boundary, which is, if, if you cannot be honest, you cannot live in our home, because the dishonesty was so prevalent. And my mother had phoned me and said, that's not fair, he won't I don't think anyone loves him. And I couldn't talk about it with her, so I just said, Mama can't talk about it, because I was deeply hurt by that. Because it was like, what about me, Mom? What about someone loving me?

And, and sometimes people can't meet us where we're at. That's why we continue to seek until we find the people that I promise you will show up. I love that your dad did. Yeah.

And so 10 minutes later, I still remember, I was in between meetings. I worked on a university campus, so I was actually walking. Wow. And I answered the phone and I said, because I get abruptness from my dad in those years, but I said, Dad, I know Mom sicked you on me. I don't—

I know what you're gonna say. Yep.

I don't want to talk about it. And my father lovingly and gently persisted, and he said, Roxy, he said, your mom says you're holding a boundary. And he said, tell me what a boundary is. And so I tried to articulate. And when you have betrayal trauma, the speech center of your brain is affected. It's hard to start talking about what you're experiencing. So I was very unsure of my ability to explain this to my father, and he listened and listened. Now remember, he was an alcoholic, and so some of his children have struggled with addiction, and my younger brother was struggling at that point, and my father had held boundaries, but he didn't call them boundaries. So he said, 'You mean when I won't let your sister-in-law and her children be on the street and I bought them a house, but I don't care if your brother loses his house and I won't give him money because of what he will do with it?' He said, 'Do you mean that's a boundary?' Ah, oh, it's such a great moment. Yes, I exploded with relief. So to your listeners, God's going to bring you someone. Yes.

And, and those people will help you hold these boundaries.

Yes, have them underneath you, have them underneath you. Well, Roxana, I believe you were sent here to the show today to helps so many people who are out there struggling alone in the confusion that comes with this, in the fear that comes with this, in the shame and guilt that comes with this. How can people find you when they need you?

My website is ForgottenSpouse.com and it has a contact page. Just fill it out and it will send me an email. My book is available on Amazon and soon through IngramSpark. So soon it will be available in independent bookstores, um, and it's called, um, The Battle— Forgotten in the Battle with Sexual Addiction: The Journey of a Spouse. Um, I would love to talk with your listeners. It is my passion to help people see hope find hope and discover themselves.

Yeah, there is hope, friends. So today is not the day to give up. You guys don't have to write any of that down. We're going to put all of the links where they're clickable. You can just click right on them to find Roxanna. Now, Roxanna, we always close out with 2 questions with every one of our guests. Are you ready? All right, our first question is: in your own life, what did you perform in order to survive? And what did dropping that role mask or performance do to help you?

You know, I know those questions, and even when I thought about them, it made me cry because I lost myself. I became overly responsible overly competent, overly, um, performing. Yeah, I would twist my soul, and in the process I lost my preferences. I almost lost my personality. And so that's what dropping it gave me back, is I learned to be Roxy again, and I learned to have my passions, my delights. I bought a motorcycle. Yes, sister!

Yes!

And I rode it. I rode it for 10 years, and I loved that bike. Oh, and I love that. I became Roxanne.

And see, you, when your soul was being twisted into a pretzel, you didn't even think about riding a bike or how much joy you would get out of it, because we don't— when we're twisting ourselves into the pretzel, we are not thinking about our wants, needs, values on a cellular and a soulful level. So exactly, yes, yes, us, us, our wants, needs, values first, and then we are pouring from an overflowing cup to those we love, care about, and are in service to. I firmly believe that. All right, Roxy, what's this? The love Yes, yes, it allows us to show up for ourselves in love so we can show up for others in love. What do we need to be talking more about? I have a feeling I already know the answer to this, but what do we need to be having more conversations about, my friend?

We need to be having more conversations about the dysfunctions in our homes and the effects on every single member in that family, and we need to allow our spouses and our children to talk about what is painful to them and where they don't feel safe, and allow them to learn and practice holding their own boundaries and having those boundaries honored.

Practice safety. I love that. With that, my friends, we're going to ask you guys out there What are you performing in your own life in order to survive? And will you consider today what might happen or change for you if you drop the role, mask, or performance? And with that, I'm your host Lisa Lacey. This was our guest Miss Roxy. And when you find the answer to that, I will see you on the edge. Thank you, Roxana.

Thank you.