Transcript of What Do We Reach for When Purpose Is Gone? PTSD, Gambling Addiction & Life After War with Sean Carberry

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Welcome to Notes from the Edge, where we have the conversations we should have been having all along. We talk about the things that we're not talking about. I'm your host, Lisa Lacey, writer, trauma educator, executive advisor, and author of the upcoming memoir Notes from a Certified Madwoman. Welcome to the Edge. Hey, hey, my friends. Welcome back to another episode of Notes from the Edge. I am your host, Lisa Lacey, and this is the place we have the conversations we should have been having all along. Guess what? You ain't talking about it. So today we're gonna, with our special guest, Sean Carberry, and today we're going to be talking about what do we reach for When the thing that gave us purpose, identity, adrenaline, and belonging is suddenly gone. Sean Carberry is an award-winning journalist, writer, editor, and former war correspondent who spent more than 15 years reporting from some of the most dangerous places in the world. His journey took him through countries including Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, Syria, Yemen, and the Dominican Republic of Congo. From 2012 to 2014, that's 2 full years, guys, he served as NPR's last Kabul-based correspondent covering Afghanistan while living inside the constant intensity of conflict.

He is the author of Passport Stamps: Searching the World for a War to Call Home, a memoir about chasing dangerous assignments in search of meaning, tribe, which we all need, and purpose. Which sometimes isn't a linear journey. But then coming home created an entirely different kind of story. He returned home carrying undiagnosed PTSD, without a job, and without much support for reentering civilian life. And then he eventually found another source of adrenaline and belonging, the high-limit rooms of Maryland casinos. And over the following years, he became one of the casino's highest-tier players while gambling away enormous amounts of money and trying to understand what he was actually chasing. He now has a new memoir, Doubling Down— great name— a memoir of war, PTSD, and the dangerous bets we make. It explores what happens after the war zones, the trauma, the gambling, identity loss, risk, and what it means when danger follows you home in forms you never expected. Sean, welcome to The Edge. How are you today, my friend?

Great, thanks, Lisa. Pleasure to be with you.

Yeah, I'm glad to have you here. Well, it's Notes from the Edge, so we're just gonna jump right in like we do.

Sure.

Um, you describe coming home from Afghanistan as being like wired for danger, and then the civilian life felt so small. So what did the danger give you in hindsight, now that you've been through this journey, that the small civilian life seemed to be missing at first when you first came home?

Yeah, you know, I think it's not even just the danger itself. I think some of that is just, it's the way I was always wired for excitement, for motion, for stimulation. That a big part of the war journalism was just the experience to be out there, to see things yourself, to go places that other people didn't was certainly, you know, part of that sort of thrill-seeker personality. Um, you know, I, I, I, it's funny because I, I look back and I look at the things that I've done, and to most people they seem extreme and, you know, crazy and edgy and adrenaline junkie kind of stuff. And I look at it and go, okay, but I look at people who, you know, free climb Yosemite or do, you know, X Games sports, you know, BASE jumping or things like that. I'm like, That's crazy adrenaline stuff. What I did is nothing compared to that. So, you know, it, there's this sort of spectrum, but, um, you know, clearly I was someone who was drawn to adventure, excitement, seeing things, experiencing things. There were, you know, there was a whole mix of things that ultimately drove me into wanting to do war journalism.

Um, but yeah, after, after coming back, um, There was just so much of that experience. The, you know, you are wired, you are on high idle, um, you know, you're— it's like a car engine that's revving at 3,000 instead of 500 RPM. And when you come back into a world where everything is sort of slow by comparison and day-to-day things that are stressful for for people are whether or not, you know, yoga class started on time, um, and whether or not there was, uh, any soy milk left at Starbucks when people went in for their coffee. And all these kinds of normal things after that, that time and that experience were just really hard to process. But I think a big part of what was really happening that, uh, you know, took me years to realize is just the notion that when you are in Dangerous environments or in traumatic circumstances, uh, one of, one of the ways you cope, or I guess don't cope, is, you know, you keep moving, right? You're— you don't slow down enough to process the fact that, hey, there's danger around, or hey, there was a horrible attack yesterday that I covered and people I knew were, were killed.

Um, you're, you're moving. You're onto the next story. You're in that stream. And coming back is really what happened is just everything slowed down so much that all this stuff that had been accumulating behind me, you know, kind of like towing a trailer full of stuff and you hit the brakes and it slams into you, right? I mean, that's—

I love that analogy.

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's like a Wile E. Coyote kind of thing or something, but That's, um, I mean, it's really kind of what, what happened is that all of a sudden, as things slowed down, all these things, these experiences, these feelings started to kind of creep in. And I felt like I can't, I can't talk to anyone else about this. You know, no one, no one I know, no one who's around me now has a frame of reference.

Yeah.

Um, there were a few people from my time overseas and in Afghanistan who had come back to DC and So a handful of people I could sometimes get together with, but everyone else, you know, had lived very different things. And so I didn't want to, you know, I didn't want to talk about things. I didn't want to burden people with things. And, and interestingly also, I didn't want to answer a lot of questions.

Mm-hmm.

You know, this is something that, that comes up a lot with veterans. And I think a lot of people are used to it with that community where people come home from war. And a lot of people, you know, good-natured way, want to ask questions and want to know what was it like? What was, you know, Vietnam, the Pacific in World War II, Afghanistan like? And a lot of people, most, you know, veterans I've encountered don't want to answer a lot of those questions.

Yeah.

And, you know, there's a host of reasons, but I found myself feeling that kind of thing too. People wanted to know, what was it like? Were you scared? Were you in danger? And I, uh, I felt like, okay, there are 2 problems. One, I'm not sure I want to be pushed into thinking about some of those things right now.

Yeah.

And 2, I'm not sure you really want to know the answers, um, because some of them are, you know, pretty, pretty gruesome or difficult or things like that. And, uh, it was, it was a moment that I finally really understood my, my late grandfather who had served in World War II. and never wanted to talk about it after he got back. He, um, you know, I remember as a kid wanting to know what was it like in the Navy in the Pacific, and he would maybe tell a joke to distract you and change the subject. And I never understood that until I got home and was in this space where I'm around people who can't relate, I can't relate to them, Mm-hmm. and I'm not busy enough to be distracted. And, you know, there were other elements. I was grieving sort of being home and that job ending. You know, the assignment was over and there wasn't another war for me to move on to or another assignment to kind of stay in that. And so there, you know, there was a huge mix of things going on that was so far beyond anything as an individual I had the ability to comprehend or process.

And the lack of any type of reentry support just left me kind of dangling. And, you know, as you noted, there was a bright shiny object that, that pretty quickly caught my attention.

Well, and so let's head there. Let's talk about that bright shiny object. So, and then I do want to circle back to what you feel we need to do to be more supportive for reentry. Absolutely. You're heading into bright shiny objects, so let's follow it. We like bright shiny objects, don't we? Yeah, squirrel, let's squirrel.

Yeah, um, so it was, it was about 6 weeks after I got back, and at that point, um, you know, I was keeping myself busy looking for a new job, but for the most part I had a lot of free time. And I just remembered, I thought, you know, I think I heard something that a casino had opened in Maryland. while I was overseas. So I hopped on the internet and there it was. And so, you know, Tuesday afternoon, nothing better to do, like, okay, I'll head up. And I did. And, you know, fairly innocent, played some, some machines, gambled maybe a couple hundred bucks, nothing that was at all, you know, financially consequential at that time. Um, but, you know, it was fun. It, um, it passed the time. There was some danger and risk to it, the potential of, of, you know, hitting a jackpot. All those things that kind of tripped some of the receptors were, were there. And, uh, so I did that. And then I think the next week I went back and then kept going back because nothing else better to do and would go spend more time. Gradually started increasing the amount that I was playing.

Uh, some of that is, you know, you watch other people, you know, I'm playing 25-cent video poker machine and that game had a maximum jackpot of $1,000. And I remember one time someone in a machine next to me hit something and the machine locked up and someone came over to pay her and she won like $5,000. And I was like, wait, how do, how do I do that?

I want more.

Yeah. And, and I looked and I was like, oh, she's betting $1 instead of $0.25. And then you start realizing, okay, the way you get bigger jackpots is you risk more. Okay, let's do that. Uh, and started pushing the bet. And then as I was doing that, um, after a few months, you know, I started getting offers from the casino. And, you know, I'd get an email saying, hey, you have a $150 food credit for the month of June, and you have this, and you're invited to this drawing. And all of a sudden it was throwing stuff at me, and I'm like, oh, okay, this is, this is fun, this is cool. Uh, next thing I know, I'm at a machine and this, you know, tall, attractive woman comes up to me And says, hi, I'm your new casino host. And I was like, oh, okay.

Um, I'll take it.

And, and she's like, you know, let me know if you need anything, if you want dinner, if you want tickets to a show. And so, you know, the stuff just started coming to me and it was giving me validation. It was giving me excitement. It was giving me things that weren't really existing in my life outside the casino. And then with the gambling itself and realizing, hey, you know, when you hit $2,000, that's kind of exciting. And then you go, all right, let's try for more. And you up the denomination from $1 to $2. And the next thing you know, you're betting $30 a hand on a 3-line video poker machine with a maximum jackpot of possibly $35,000. And then one day you hit that jackpot. And then you realize, wow, that's possible. So days where I'm down an insane amount of money that I shouldn't be gambling with the resources I have, I go, well, you know, I'm down $15,000, but I could hit for $20,000 or $30,000. So keep going. And unfortunately, there were moments where that paid off. Uh, you know, I write about moments where I was, you know, at it.

I was down $12,000, $13,000 one time, and within a minute hit jackpots. I hit a jackpot on one machine, it locked up. I moved to the next, hit another jackpot, and I was up $2,000 after like 8 hours of agony of losing money. And that, that roller coaster, all those different things that that releases and fires in the brain just hit all the things that the danger of the war journalism and all those things, it was very much the same chemistry. And so I'd say it was both a cliché and inevitable that I would end up in high-stakes gambling after coming back from Afghanistan.

I love the fact that you're letting us know about the biology related to this because I think it's really important. And you, you hit on it several times that it's hitting in your brain.

Yeah.

On the same receptors that the risk and the danger would hit on. So I mean, biology is a component in any of our addictions that, that we struggle with. And mine was the bottle for 20 years because I was running, running, running, running. So Um, what did war reporting and gambling have in common emotionally? So we've talked about it biologically. What did it kind of have in common emotionally for you?

I mean, certainly, you know, excitement is sort of the, the first word, and that obviously covers a lot of ground. Um, it was, you know, it's, it's risky, it's edgy, it's unique, it's something that other people sort of look at with a sense of, you know, wonder and, and awe and excitement and, um, you know, some admiration. Like, oh, that's, you know, amazing, you were a war journalist. Like, well, okay, you know, maybe, but also when I started, I was an idiot and I didn't know what I was doing and not necessarily getting into it for the most, uh, you know, upstanding of reasons. I mean, there's ego and competition and— all that. So, uh, you know, by the time I, I had been doing it for a while, I'd learned a lot about the, you know, the profession and the obligations and the seriousness of it. But there's still— it was, you know, it was a degree of sort of thrill and the unknown and all that. And gambling, yeah, it's, um, you know, it's excitement, it's danger, it has enormous upside potential.

Um, I love that word potential. That one will get you every time.

Yeah, enormous.

And in a few relationships like that.

Yep. Yeah, yeah. I think that's, that's the thing is, um, the upside's potential, the downside's real in, in some of these circumstances.

I love it, and I love how honest you are about speaking about it. So, so, um, thank you. Um, let's Let's get back to your reentry that led to the gambling.

Yeah.

Um, people often imagine PTSD as like nightmares, flashbacks, falling apart, but yours showed up differently. So talk to us about how PTSD manifested for you. What did it look like? Because I think this is an important question to answer for people out there that may be struggling and don't have language for it. And I'm gonna plug in my computer while you talk.

Yep, no problem. Um, yeah, I mean, I, I think, you know, there is clinically, there is a difference. There's acute PTSD, which is, I think, what most people are kind of used to and, and what shows up in pop culture and movies. It's, you know, the soldier, it's Chris Kyle coming back from, uh, a tour and, you know, having terrors or nightmares or sweats or things like that and reliving moments of, of, you know, a very specific traumatic incident. So I think most people are familiar with that and think of PTSD through that lens. But chronic PTSD is, is its own thing and variant. And, you know, that's— it's much more— that's like sort of the, the boiling frog analogy, you know, where you're in the water and the temperature keeps rising, but you don't really realize it. And, uh, you know, that was the thing for, for me. I mean, there were certainly moments Where there were, there were, you could say traumatic moments. There were incidents, you know, I was on bases when incoming fire came in and exploded nearby. But a lot of those moments were so fleeting that you didn't have time.

You didn't know it was coming. So you didn't build up fear or anticipation or anything. It just happened and it was sort of over. And then you're like, wow, that was really close. But the constant stress of being in an environment where you are operating on that high alert and high idle and everything's a possible threat. And you might get into moments where you're riding in an armored vehicle with some, you know, 19-year-old soldiers who are talking about the video games they were playing the night before. And, you know, you kind of get lost in this little moment riding through some village in Afghanistan, but then you step back and think, wait a second. a vehicle got hit by an IED in the same village 2 days ago, and we're going out there. And, you know, you kind of get pulled back into that threat vigilance thing. So that's, you know, part of it is just years of being on that high threat level and scanning for danger takes a toll and doesn't shut off the moment you're outside the environment.

Yeah.

And the other side of that that coin was just the, the consumption of so much negativity, of pain, of death, of suffering, of, you know, every day in that work, you are, you're usually covering something bad. You're covering an attack. You're, even if you're not witnessing it, you know, there'd be an attack in southern Afghanistan that killed a few people. I'd have to report on that. So You know, I wasn't there. I didn't see that one, but I'm still that day writing a story about people killed in a Taliban attack. And then, you know, over time things did get closer and closer to me when, you know, there was one night that it took me years to recognize how impactful that night was when the Taliban attacked a restaurant in Kabul where a lot of international people would. would dine, and I had eaten there the week before, and I was with a group of friends nearby. We were getting ready to go out to a party at, of all places, the Russian Embassy, and it was an ABBA-themed party because life in Kabul is bonkers. But there was an explosion and then gunfire and then a pause, and then there was more gunfire, and so, you know, we put down our drinks and went into work mode.

And over the course of the night, found out that the Taliban had attacked this restaurant, killed 21 people inside, and some of our friends were among the victims. And so, you know, people that we had just hung out with days before, played tennis with, whatever it might be, were gone in that attack that was deliberately targeting the international community. which hadn't really been the norm there. And so, you know, it's things like that where, I mean, that was literally a more acute trauma type of thing, but that was just piling on to years of covering these types of episodes. And, um, again, walking through hospitals after the attack. I mean, that night we did go to the hospital to talk to doctors to find out, you know, what's happening, how many victims came in, what can you tell us? So you're just consuming Just, you know, I would say it's, it's— you're consuming the worst of what people do to each other all day, every day for years. And again, you don't just shut that off and, you know, you don't Ted Lasso that and goldfish it or whatever the, the expression is and move on.

I mean, that's, that's there. That does rewire you. That does change how you interact with humanity every day. And so All those things, that's what I came back with, was, you know, the years of just seeing the worst things that people could ever do to each other and living in these high-stress, high-danger circumstances. And, um, yeah, there was nothing at that moment. There was no forced intervention from, you know, from NPR when I got back. They're, they're approach at the time was, hey, there's a guy you can call. Um, you know, they had sort of a consultant. And of course, we all know no one, you know, no one volunteers in situations like that, whether, you know, no, no soldier is going to volunteer, no cop volunteers after they're involved in a shooting, you know. So of course I wasn't gonna volunteer. And also, I had no idea. at that moment where my head was relative to, you know, polite society or normalcy. Um, I just, just didn't know because I had no frame of reference, right?

Yeah.

And then there was no one to point out to me, it's like, hey, you're not aware of this yet, but here's the stuff that's churning in there, and here are the things that you're going to need to deal with, and here are things that are going to surprise you. And, you know, again, you, you just You don't know it yet, but there's a lot that you need to process. And here are some healthy coping tools other than, you know, it's the, the quip I make, the, the firm of, uh, whiskey, Xanax, and Ambien. Um, which, which—

Get rid of that anxiety and help you sleep and, uh, take the edge off a little bit. Yeah.

I mean, that, that was, you know, kind of the nightly recipe for a lot of us in, in the war zones is, uh, You know, you just go through a stressful day and you medicate yourself to sleep and get up and start over. And, you know, that might be a short-term coping mechanism for a couple of days, but not a long-term strategy. And so, yeah, I, I came back with, uh, with a drastically different brain than I went overseas with.

Mm-hmm.

And no one to, to explain how to function with that and what things What things were going to fade and temper and things that I could work with, and what things were, you know, sort of permanent hardwiring. Um, and, you know, it's still like, yeah, I, you know, I admit, like, random fireworks, I jump. Uh, you know, there are certain sounds that's just part of my wiring at this point. Um, there are other things that are, uh, you know, that, that do sort of trigger little bits of panic. But yeah, I wasn't having night terrors. I wasn't having all the, the acute PTSD stuff. So again, no reason for me to think, um, that I proactively needed to, to do something. You know, I could get up in the morning, I could brush my teeth, I could go feed myself. Um, I was functional. Um, I was then, you know, hiding in a casino, and then Uh, you know, another dangerous bet that I made was a relationship that, um, was also, uh, high upside potential, um, but turned out to be abusive and, and violent that I never would have— I never would have gotten into if I hadn't been already broken from that experience when I met that person.

And she was filling again.

It—

there was, you know, there was, there was loneliness going on after that, but there was, uh, that danger. And she provided an immense amount of danger that, um, I, you know, brought into my home against my better judgment, even seeing red flags early on, that I took on as, um, a bit of a challenge to try to see if I could Fix it and make it work. And you know, I did what a lot of people do in abusive relationships: is I make the problem, I make myself the cause of the problems, and think, oh, if I can, if I change this, or if I do this differently, it won't trigger that reaction from her. Instead of saying, wait, no, that reaction is completely, you know, asymmetrical, out of bounds. Like there is no justification whatever for a person doing this, or breaking things in your house or hitting you. Um, but I, again, that it was hitting all the wires. It was dangerous.

It was chaos. Yeah. Yeah.

At a time when everything else was just too quiet for me and I wasn't doing anything that was giving me that meaning and purpose and, and filling a lot of those things. So, you know, it was all just that, that pattern of You know, obviously I have a higher appetite for, for dangerous excitement than, than most people. But again, I just, I had nothing to, to help me process and position myself, have coping skills, recognize that, okay, you're feeling an urge for some danger right now. Don't go to a casino or don't go out to dinner with this person who is gonna cause problems. Um, go do this instead. Channel it here. Um, you know, so there was really none of that in the early years until, you know, I, I just sort of just kept breaking things, uh, myself. And, um, you know, eventually started the process, started to, to work with some different therapists here and there and realize things. And eventually Uh, in 2021, when I sat down and started writing the first book, was really the moment when I, you know, embraced that as a vehicle. I, I got to a point before that where I was getting ready to kind of check out.

Um, and, you know, it was in the depths of COVID and lots of things were just bottoming out. My gambling was off the hook, my job was frustrating, I was lonely and isolated, and I'm like, I'm done. You know, it's just enough. And, uh, and fortunately, and largely by virtue of, of Squeak, my Afghan cat who I brought home with me, I kind of took a pause and it's like, well, I can't leave this little jerk on her own. Um, so I guess I gotta get up tomorrow and figure out what I'm gonna do.

Hmm.

And, uh, the book, the first book became that journey into really processing and healing. And, you know, I think like any author will say when they're writing memoirs, you start writing things down that you plan to write, and then these other things pop up and you start noticing threads and patterns. And I realized that that book was going to be sort of my— it's telling the story of my progression through war journalism, how I got into it, why, the learning process. But it was the arc of my mental health and changes as well, as I could see as I went along how I was reacting differently and interacting with people differently and getting darker and, um, you know, really struggling with how do I process all this stuff that I consume every day and look at humans as having any redeeming qualities anymore.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so So that was, you know, really where the journey kind of, kind of turned and processing. And, and so, you know, I did, I did work with some people here and there, but it ended up doing, you know, too much of the work myself, um, in finally processing and realizing and recognizing years later the headspace I was in when I was making those bad decisions after coming back from Afghanistan.

Yeah, and the reasons why. I mean, you have very— a very high level of clarity about the reasons why, the biology, the emotional reasons. I mean, uh, 15 years is a really huge chunk of change. So to be in, you know, a high alert status, seeing the worst things humans can do all day, every day, will absolutely affect somebody. So, Sean, what was the— what was the— was writing the book the kind of catharsis for you where you started piecing everything together and going, oh, whoa, I've been through some dark stuff and almost checked out? And was it— was that the catharsis that you needed? I mean, what was the shift for you where you're able to talk about it?

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I, you know, the, the one thing is everything's in, in my my books. I mean, to, to, uh, some— to friends and family, to uncomfortable detail.

Is that scary for you? Is it— is it released yet? When does the book release?

Yes. Yeah, the new one, the new one just came out, uh, August 15th.

Congratulations.

Yeah, the first, the first one was, was already too much information in, in some circumstances. Again, it's, you know, I knew when I was writing, I'm like, It's easy to write for an audience who doesn't know you. Like, there's, you know, it's like, whatever. We all read things from people we don't know and go, wow, that person went through crazy stuff. Or that person is, you know, we're like, that person's nuts. I can't believe they did this. And it's, you know, it's removed. But then when, you know, I thought about this, like, wow, how are friends going to react when they're reading me talking about how I did some really crazy stuff? And I am talking about some very personal stuff and some relationships and details and some of the things that go on in war zones and hookups and whiskey and whatever. And it's like—

Hookups and whiskey. That's the title of your third book. Hookups and whiskey.

I love it. Yeah. Although I guess it should be whiskey and hookups because that's more of the sequence.

Yeah, true. True that. Or simultaneously. You never know. You never know.

Um, but, uh, but yeah, I just, I just, that was a conscious decision I made when I started writing the first book because again, it's another cliché. Like every foreign correspondent writes a book at some point, you know, they come back and they, they write a book about their experiences. And I feel like there were so many journalists who had written better books than I could. They had experienced more. They were higher profile, whatever it was. They had you know, on some level a better story to tell. But I also felt like a lot of the books often focus on what they, what they saw. They were external-facing. And when they reflected on themselves, there tended to be a little bit of bias toward making themselves look good.

Well, and readers can sense that. And I was just going to say about a memoir, because we just changed— my publisher and I just changed my memoir to autofiction to give me some more freedom because My, my mother is still alive. That's all I'm gonna say. She's still alive. So it's now fiction. But readers know when you're leaving stuff out, my friend, and you know that. You, your spidey sense was picking up on that as you were writing because you told the truth in the memoir, and you have to if you're gonna write one.

Yeah. And, and it was that— I mean, that was part of the, part of the healing was just going, going into all of it and saying, okay, this is, this is gonna be what I bring to the table. I'm not, I wasn't the most famous journalist. I didn't have the most intense war reporting experiences, but I'm gonna tell you my personal journey, good, bad, and ugly in all detail.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm gonna tell you that, yeah, when I started, I had ambition. I had certain things that were driving me to wanna report from Afghanistan after 9/11. Um, it was, again, some of it was professional competitiveness. It was ambition. Um, I didn't really know what that work entailed. I didn't know what it was like, but it was also that romanticism of, you see war journalists, you're like, wow, that's, you know, frankly, that's badass.

Yeah.

Right. And so there's like, yeah, I gotta, I gotta do that. Um, so yeah, I, I went into it without enough understanding and knowledge and bumbled around. And I talk about that candidly, that I walked into some stupid circumstances that I was lucky to get out of alive. Um, you know, my— one of my first trips, getting detained at gunpoint in Sudan. Uh, and I just— I was like, wait, what's— you know, I was like so confused by it that I, I couldn't even figure out that I should be scared or not. Um, fortunately, you know, it was, it was a quick—

Maybe that was a good thing.

Yeah, it was. I mean, it's a quick and mild incidents. Fortunately, you know, I wasn't taken for days, and I know people who were. And so, you know, I don't want to make light of things like that. But in my case, again, I sort of talk about myself as the Mr. Bean of foreign correspondence, if you know that TV show, that, you know, that sort of clueless, blundering, and yet everything always seems to come out okay. And that was, that was my early years. And then, you know, I learned and things got more intense, and I really started to learn the the responsibility I had to the people I was reporting on who were suffering, who needed their story told, who I needed to make sure I didn't re-traumatize as I'm asking them to tell their story and things like that. So, you know, there's this whole growth, uh, thing that I'm talking about. But yeah, I, I go into what was going on in my head the whole time. And then in the second book, it's like, yeah, here's here's what was going on. Like, I was, you know, I was doing this out in the open too.

I mean, that's the thing that was different. Like, I'm, I'm grateful that my response wasn't, you know, substances when I came home. And, you know, at least gambling was socially acceptable and I could talk about it at work. And in fact, like, coworkers wanted to hear stories like, oh, did you hit any big jackpots last weekend? Like, I was doing this high roller thing that a lot of people think of and be like, wow, that'd be cool to walk into a casino and people are handing you drinks and know you by name and, oh, you know, Mr. Carberry, your table is ready and stuff like that. Um, so it was, you know, it was vicarious entertainment for a lot of people, uh, as well. But, you know, obviously they're getting the sanitized version. They're hearing about the wins. They're not hearing about the nights that I'm standing in a hotel room at the casino with a glass of whiskey staring at the giant bathtub in the bathroom going, why not?

Mm-hmm.

Um, you know, I just flushed away all the money I have available to me. Um, I sold my car. Why not just, just crawl into the tub and, and, you know, send a message to the casino that Hey, this is you brought this on. You seduced a misfiring brain with all your stuff and sucked me into something that again I didn't fully understand and didn't realize how it was hitting all those receptors and making it so hard for me to go wait, I should really stop this because I can't afford this instead of going I need to find out how to get more money so I can. keep doing this.

It's slippery. It sneaks up on you so, um, subtly, you know, over, over time. Any, any kind of addiction does. So you've seen firsthand how institutions can depend on people's willingness to endure extraordinary circumstances and then leave them alone.

Mm-hmm.

just like, okay, thanks, see ya. Um, what needs to change for people who are coming home, um, and, and re-entering this— how you called it— small, ordinary, civilian life where we're concerned about our damn soy milk at Starbucks when somebody not so far away from us is scared for their life on a daily basis? How can we make changes there?

Yeah, it's so— as I've found over the last few years of trying to make this change, this is— it's a really stuck problem. And there are reasons, you know, we look at how hard it is, like society— as society, we've accepted that veterans need help when they come home. We've accepted that war changes people. And that service members go through things and, um, coming home is, is difficult and traumatic in its own right. And so there's a VA, there are mental health services. None of it's doing enough. None of it's meeting the full need, but it's there. And there's, there's at least open recognition of that.

And people talk about it. Yes.

Right.

Yeah.

And so, you know, there's still stigma, stigma. I mean, I know service members who have struggled with whether or not to get help, even though it was, you know, available and encouraged.

Yeah.

But so at least it's there. On the civilian side, the journalists, diplomats, humanitarians, contractors, people who go to these places, there isn't a centralized entity for any of them, right? There isn't a news organization health and mental health entity. It's up to the individual organizations. You know, is the New York Times, NPR, Reuters— are these organizations going to take care of their own people? And what do they put in place to deal with that? That's the only really systemic thing at the moment. And some organizations have gotten better. And I know you know, from talking to people in the industry, there's, there's more recognition, there's a little more openness, but there's still— there isn't anything really structured. And, uh, I, I know people in, you know, humanitarian organizations said, yeah, I got home, there was nothing. My organization didn't talk about it, didn't think about the fact that, you know, I just spent 2 years in South Sudan during a civil war and came home and they didn't Didn't offer me anything. So, you know, that's kind of where things, things are. So it's up to the organizations. There are some foundations that are trying to look at it, you know, more broadly.

There, there are organizations that look at, you know, mental health and journalism or trauma and journalism, but they're also really just a drop in a bucket and they're not integrated into things. The The one thing that I landed on as something that I think is something that can be implemented and gets at the issue where, you know, a journalist doesn't want to raise their hand, right, as I was saying before, and especially if you're still in the game, like you come back from Ukraine and you don't want to go through counseling because you're afraid you're not going to get sent back to Ukraine and you want to be there when the Russian troops are pushed out. You know, everyone wants to be there at the big moment of the story. Uh, people want to be there when Saddam gets captured or Gaddafi gets captured or whatever. So they, they push themselves too far at times, and they fear that if they take a break or ask for help, that they, you know, they get taken out of rotation. So how do you get past that? Well, you, you make it mandatory.

Mm-hmm.

You make it structured kind of like an officer-involved shooting. It's like, no, we're not giving you the option of counseling. You're going to counseling. part, you have to clear this hurdle before you're allowed back in. Therefore, it's no indictment of you. It's not a character thing. It's not your—

It's everybody does it.

It's everybody does it. So—

And that does wipe some of the stigma because you've got to do it. So there's no discussion about it.

Right. So it's, so it's a level playing field in that regard.

Love that.

And, and then it's, you know, because again, people don't know that they need it. And so hopefully they go through it and, you know, realize that they actually do need the counseling. The other thing that needs to happen on the front end is, you know, I went through hostile environment training courses, and this is an industry that kind of popped up especially after 9/11. And when embedded reporting started becoming a big thing, journalists were required to get training in, you know, how do you do trauma first aid. So dealing with, uh, you know, after an explosion, how do you recognize a minefield and avoid it? How do you negotiate checkpoints and things like that? So all these sort of physical security things, but there was never any discussion in those courses about the psychological, emotional, mental impacts of like, how do you deal with the aftereffects of a day when You know, someone you know was killed, or you're on a patrol with US forces and come under fire. How do you process that? What are good coping skills and things like that? So building some resilience on the front end so that when you're going through things, you can handle them better.

And then on the back end, pull you back in and say, okay, we're going to put you through, you know, reentry counseling. So.

That's where I love that you have tools on the front end that you're given. You, you have awareness of what you're going to be facing. Sounds like there was some little surprises in there for you. And then you have support on the back end. It makes, it makes too much sense.

Right. I mean, that's, that's the thing. It's like, okay, I'm, I'm not that smart that I just came up with a genius idea that no one has thought about before. Clearly, people have thought about this and it hasn't been implemented. And so the question is, you know, why? Is it that there just hasn't been the focus and the pressure? And some of my cynical take is, you know, you look at what's happened with veterans, you know, you look at the suicide rate, right? Mm-hmm. That has been an absolute crisis. And that, unfortunately, it shouldn't have come to that to be a driver for some of the services and things. But it did. And that forced, you know, a reckoning over mental health and providing the services. That kind of thing hasn't happened in significant numbers with civilians. You know, it happens here and there. And I know of examples of some journalists and other people who did take their lives after battling with PTSD and other things after some of those assignments, but they're not in numbers that have created kind of a collective societal reaction in a sense of, hey, we've got to help these people.

Yeah.

And I think it also still comes down to the fact that, you know, civilians aren't often recognized as being in these places and experiencing a lot of the harms and trauma and things like that. And so there's still, you know, a whole awareness thing of saying, hey, yeah, you know what, diplomats do have traumatic experiences in war zones.

Obviously.

And, and some don't come home. Humanitarians, aid workers, uh, contractors, all these people that are out there experiencing different variations. Yes, they're, you know, they're not pulling triggers, they're not in certain circumstances that are unique to, to veterans, but, um, they are asked to do things, and some of them are spending years in these places doing incredibly difficult things that society isn't recognizing and that the systems aren't there. So it's still, you know, we're very much at the front end of this. It's like the whole battle with mental health and the fact that the word mental shouldn't be a separate category within health, right?

Mm-hmm.

It's health, and it shouldn't be this other thing where Oh yes, we have some coverage in your insurance plan, but not enough for you to really commit to doing the therapy that you want to because it's going to cost you thousands of dollars out of pocket.

Yep. And we're a year-long waiting list just to get into somebody who is—

who are taking new clients. So, um, you know, we're still very early in the, in the phase of, of solving mental health, of raising awareness around different communities that need it and figuring out, okay, who, you know, who owns it and where are the points where we can build this in? And I think, yes, news organizations absolutely should make that a mandatory thing that they provide. And humanitarian organizations and others need to build that in. And You know, I, so again, I'm, you know, super grateful for this opportunity to talk about it because this is how, you know, this is how we do it is we have these conversations.

I was going to say the same thing. Yep.

You know, I tell people, here's all the stupid stuff I did that I probably wouldn't have if there had been help and support and these things. So let's save the next person from, you know, losing, uh, years of, of their money in a casino and getting into relationships that they shouldn't have and all that. Um, you know, I mean, look, we can't stop ourselves all the time from, from making dumb decisions now and then, but I think there are things that, uh, you know, we can do a lot better in, in recognizing when people are going to be vulnerable, when they're, you know, they're broken, when, uh, you put them in a situation that you owe them the, the help and support for, you know, for, for the service that, that they provided.

Well, I love that you put everything in the book. I love that you went there. That takes a lot of courage and bravery. And I think you coming on shows like this one and advocating is going to make a huge difference. The first step is actually talking about it. So you're raising awareness that this issue exists. And what you suggested is a very simple, um, addition to, to what's going on. So guys, let's get it together. Let's get it together.

Yeah.

But yes, there is a mental health crisis across the board, um, you know, uh, with, with veterans, with reporters, with even menopausal women. I mean, across the board, we're all struggling right now.

Yeah.

And you, you hit it that, yeah, our insurance, I'll cover $20, or I won't cover this provider, or there's a year-long waiting list, or, you know, you need this modality. But I mean, when I went to DBT, it was a $25,000 program that had a year-long waiting list, but I was persistent and ended up getting in. And It was so clinical in nature, it ended up not helping. So again, it starts, Sean, with you and I having this conversation today. So I, I admire it, um, your bravery, your courage. Um, thank you for, for throwing it all in the book. It's gonna change lives, um, because people are gonna see themselves in you, um, and perhaps seek the help that they need. A little bit earlier sometimes. And I love how you put it with the casino kind of luring you in. That's pretty sneaky too.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that, that's, you know, another, another rabbit hole for another time.

But yeah, I think you should come back next month. We have a lot of my favorite guests on for round 2.

Happy to do it.

And that's—

yeah, because it is, it is a very predatory system and it is something that's growing now because it's moved into online and sports betting. And so gambling is really infiltrating Society, and I'm I'm lucky that I never lit up to online or sports gambling. It was just one game, one experience. It had to be video poker in the casino. The whole thing was what lit me up, and so in that regard, I'm lucky compared to other people with heavier gambling addictions. But yeah, it's that is that's definitely another conversation, and you know super grateful that we've at least been able to have this one, and that that you're. championing this kind of work and, and discussion as well.

Yeah, we need, we need to see the best in humans more than the worst in humans. That alone can give us hope to want to not check out of this place and stay here. So, and what you're showing us is, is the good side. So thank you, my friend. All right, um, where can people find the book if it just went out? That's so exciting. Are you a little nervous? Are you a little nervous because you told it all in it?

Uh, no, at this point I'm, you know, after the, the first book when I, when I overshared once, I'm like, okay, from now on, you know, you just get all that for me. Yeah, you get, you, you get it all. That's, uh, that's, you know, it's part of the ride. Um, I love it.

Where can we find it?

Yeah, the new one. So doublingdown.net is, uh, is my site and it's got links. This, the new one is actually currently just ebook. Um, it'll soon be audiobook. I just finished tracking the, the recording. Now I gotta spend a couple days editing myself down, but—

Cool.

There'll be an audiobook. But yeah, doublingdown.net, it goes to my site and it's got, uh, info on both books. And, um, it's got a link also. I have a Substack where I, uh, you know, I've written some more behind-the-scenes stuff and some of the things that didn't make it into the book because the first draft was way too long and things like that.

So All right, very cool, guys. You don't have to write that down. We'll put it in clickable links for you. Sean will talk after and make sure I have all of that. Now, Sean, before I let all of our guests go, we always ask 2 questions to close out. Are you ready?

Yep.

All right, question number 1: In your own life, what did you perform the most in order to survive, and what did setting that role mask or performance down do for your life?

So I would say, you know, really through the, the gambling episode, um, I performed that I was okay, that I was showing up to work every day as a highly functional professional who on the job, um, had it all squared away, had it locked down, who, um, did everything well, and similarly was kind of the person who was there for other people. In moments whenever I felt like I was in a tough spot, I would immediately pivot to helping someone else. So it was always that, that, that mask of showing up, performing, being there for other people, and not addressing you know, sort of the, the creeping ruin underneath. And, uh, and yeah, I mean, that moment in 2020 when it was just coming to a head, um, and being able to stop and say, hey folks, I'm a train wreck.

Um, use that, guys. Use that one if you need it. Yeah, yeah, this is the train wreck going on over here, guys.

Yeah. Or, you know, I talk about the, the smoldering dumpster rolling behind me. Whatever, uh, whatever imagery you like. I, uh, I, I'm, I'm happy with that. But, uh, but yeah, at least just then saying like, you know what, I, I can't be here for you today because I gotta be here for me today.

That's big.

And that was something that, you know, it's still hard. I mean, my, my instinct is still to, to forget about what's bothering me today if a friend's like, oh my God, I had this horrible day. I'm like, okay, forget my stuff. I'm I'm here for you. It's like, no, wait a sec, I need to spend more time here for me. Um, and so that's still, you know, still a constant challenge of, uh, of not just sort of— I guess, I guess that's sublimating, I think, or, uh, avoidance, whatever, whatever the technical term is, of, uh, not dealing with my stuff and instead focusing on other people.

It takes practice. To start putting ourselves first if, if we haven't. And if we're looking for any kind of distraction, it takes practice. So beautiful answer, my friend. All right, last question. What do you want us as humans to be talking more about that we're not talking about, that we're hushed up about?

Yeah, I was— I mean, this, this one's super easy. It really is coming home. Um, it is really that, that notion that, um, you know, across the board for service members, for civilians, for people who do these things, who go on these assignments, who take these risks, who answer the call to serve in whatever way it is, that they're going to, you know, hopefully— sadly not enough come home, but most are going to come home and they're not going to come home the same. And we need to recognize that and we need to provide everything we can to, to help make coming home and staying home, um, where people want to be.

Um, yeah, coming home. Thank you, Sean. All right, my friends, as always, when we close out, I'm going to ask you guys the same question I asked Sean. What in your own life might you be performing in order to just get by And what is going to setting that role mask or performance down do to lighten your load a little bit or to keep that, that dump truck trash bin from hitting you in the rear end? So, all right, friends, listen, I'm your host, Lisa Lacey, here with our special guest, Shawn Carberry. We will be seeing him back for round 2. When you find the answer, we will both see you at the edge. Thank you, Shawn.

Thank you, Lisa.