Transcript of Can Worms, Sprouts & Laughter Change Your Life? with Cathy Nesbitt

Welcome to Notes from the Edge, where we have the conversations we should have been having all along. We talk about the things that we're not talking about. I'm your host, Lisa Lacey, writer, trauma educator, executive advisor, and author of the upcoming memoir Notes from a Certified Madwoman. Welcome to the edge. Hey, hey, my friends! Welcome back to another episode of Notes from the Edge. I am your host, Lisa Lacey, and this is the place we have the conversations we should have been having all along. Guess what? You ain't talking about it, so we're gonna. And today's guest is Kathy Nesbitt, and Kathy is a health and wellness advocate, environmental innovator, love that, entrepreneur, inspiring speaker, and founder of Kathy's Crawley Compositors, established all the way back in 2002. Known as a passionate worm advocate, Kathy teaches people how to transform household organic waste into nutrient-rich soil through indoor vermicomposting. You're gonna have to help me with this, Kathy. She believes worms will play an increasingly important role in waste management, soil production, and global food security. She is also the founder of Kathy Sprouters and Kathy's Laughter Club, bringing together what she calls simple solutions for some of today's biggest challenges: worms for healthier soil, sprouts for accessible nutrition, and laughter— I love this, you know we love to laugh in here, even about the hard stuff— for greater health.

After encountering criticism and negative reactions to her unconventional mission, she discovered laughter yoga. Daily laughter became an essential part of her process. Now she's an award— multi-award-winning entrepreneur, avid cyclist, and gardener, and she uses education workshops and speaking to inspire people to live more sustainably, care for themselves, and discover the power of actually laughing. Kathy, welcome to Notes from the Edge. How are you today, my friend?

Hello, Lisa. I'm excited to be here.

I know, we get to laugh. That's what we do in here. Everybody gets done and they're like, that was actually fun talking about hard stuff.

Guess what?

We can do both at the same time. So I absolutely love that. So you have spent more than 20 years, even after facing some criticism, and I want to talk to you about that, how you worked through that, building what you affectionately call the Worm Empire. Take us back to the beginning. So that sounds like an out-of-the-box idea, and you faced some criticism, but you kept going, and it paid off for you. So take us back to the beginning of how, how did that happen?

Well, I'm located in Canada, in Canada, just north of Toronto, largest city in Canada.

Okay.

And in 2002, the landfill for the Greater Toronto Area filled up. Wow, right? I know, it's like, oh, and they're so big, they're so big, right?

I know.

And I think that's the thing is it was like, oh, we could put today's trash in there, it fits. We don't have to worry about it. But then when it filled up, it's like, oh, holy cow, what do we do now? And Canada, second largest country in the world, and we couldn't find a place to site a new landfill. We started to export our garbage to the United States.

Wow. Did not know any of this.

Yeah, little dirty secret. And not anymore.

Yeah, we all know now. We all know now. There's a lot of people that know now, Kathy.

And I had a solution, indoor composting with worms.

Yeah. Okay. But why worms? What brought you to worms?

Well, so it's composting. Composting is generally done outside. No special equipment, maybe a pile or a composter. You wouldn't have a pile of rotting stuff in your house. So this is— the worms are in a box. He said outside the box thinking, I'm like, well, it's kind of in the box. They're not free range.

It's in the box, out of the box.

But it's in the box. So it's, it's, yeah, so the worms are in a container. They require a carbon-nitrogen mix, just like composting. So it's composting with worms, and you can do it in the house. You can do it outside too.

It sounds so simple.

So simple. It is.

Yeah, it sounds so simple. What, what brought you to this? You just, you saw that there was a gap and you wanted to fill it? There was a need?

Well, a few things happen. Like, how did it come about? Uh, so I'm from Toronto, and I, in 1993, I bought a house out of the city. Like, I couldn't afford to buy in the city, just like today. Sounds like today's story, doesn't it? Yeah, people can't afford to buy in large—

can't buy a house anywhere.

I can't buy it anywhere now. Yeah, that's true. So '93, we bought a house outside the city, and I still traveled to the city for work. I couldn't wait to start gardening and composting. And in 1993, a teacher friend asked me to look after her worm bin for the summer. I didn't want worms in my house. And now that's my life.

'Cause people think worms so creepy, right? I mean, people think worms gross, right?

Right, they're creepy, they're crawly, they're icky. If you've had an experience with worms, like after a rainy day, somebody chased you around or put it in your shirt or a fishing incident, Yeah, you're not looking to worms fishing.

Yeah, yeah, right.

And so I took on the challenge because I knew the value of the worm compost, the, the end product, but I didn't want to do the process. I didn't want to have worms in my house, but I said, okay, let me try, let me, let me do this. And for one summer in '93, I had worms in my house. It was awful. I was a fruit fly farmer because I would open up the lid, throw the food in. I, I totally didn't want to befriend the worms.

Yeah, at first.

At first.

Yeah.

So that was my experience. At the end of the summer, I kept them alive. I separated the compost. That's what I wanted, the black gold. Gave my friends back— my friend back the worms. And I said, I'm never doing that again. Okay, I'll just go to a worm farm and buy some worm poo if I want worm poo. Like, there's so many worm farms around. No, there isn't.

There's one on every corner, girl. Right.

And I got on with my life. And then I was getting my psych degree. It took me 15 years. Stay in school, folks.

Congrats.

Thank you. It wasn't about the paper. I just love learning. Yeah. In 2000, I graduated and I got a job at a group home. I have a psych degree. I got a job at a group home working with challenged adults. They had 10 homes and a farm and they didn't compost. So here they have all of this food waste. Yeah, and they're paying people money. Yeah, right. They're, they, they're paying big money to get rid of this food waste because food waste is the devil, right? It smells bad, it attracts fruit flies, rodents. Like, imagine a grocery store not getting rid of the rotting produce every day, right?

Right.

That— what kind of shopping experience would that be? Fruit flies, rodents. Like, it would be awful. Yeah, smell, right? All of those. Okay, so we pay a lot. So I approached management and I said, why, why don't you compost? You have a farm.

Yeah.

And you have a vocational program where the, the clients—

they could do it. Yeah, yeah. And it would give them something to do and take part of and be proud of. And yeah, right.

And their response was We don't need the fertilizer because we have cows.

Wow.

So it was the first time I was like, oh my gosh, people don't connect what they do. Here they are creating all of this food waste, paying big money to ship it away when they could just turn it into soil. Like, you don't need it, sell it, or put it on the grass. Like, it's— yeah, it's non-toxic.

It's— and you called it black gold. I love that. I love that.

Right? Because it is. It's nutrient-rich fertilizer.

Well, it's grounding just to hold it in your hand. It is, you know. Yes.

Um, so that was kind of my second introduction. Like, have you ever done something, Lisa, and you're so excited about it, and then you do it and it doesn't turn out the way you thought?

Always. Yeah, happens a lot. I have a lot of big ideas, right?

And so then you go, I'm not going to do that again. But then somebody says, hey Lisa, why don't we do that thing that you did that didn't work out. And you get that feeling, and there's somebody like, ah, no, not for me, that didn't work out. Well, when that happened, I was like, okay. I came home that day from work, and I was like, it's an institution, they're not getting worms anytime soon, they're not doing this anytime soon. They got to have meetings. Is it a good idea? Do we have money?

Oh yes, right, all the bureaucracy.

Yeah, right, all the red tape, all the stuff. Yeah. So I came home and I was like, huh. I had my first introduction in '93. Here we are, 2000, and I started to Google, and I was like, oh, like red wiggler worms. And I started to look at worm composting, okay? And I found all of this material, like the worms, they— like, they're the original alchemists. They turn garbage into gold. Oh, they turn something that we find objectionable into something usable.

Very usable, right?

And I had this— wow, my fear of worms turned into awe. I was like, oh my gosh, everybody needs this. And I heard, or I read, that the average Canadian slash American family creates a ton of organic waste in a year, and that a pound of worms and their descendants can transform a ton of waste in a year.

So I found— that's it.

Yeah, well, not in a little box, right? If they were given space to grow, in theory, yes, that could happen. Okay.

Okay.

So I was like, oh my gosh, everybody needs a pound of worms, and I'm just the one to put a pound of worms in every house. And I set forth.

And I set forth. Okay. But you faced some criticism. So tell our audience about— well, I'm sure because nobody likes worms. And they especially don't value and appreciate them until you educate them. I just got an education. Thank you. We might be doing it. I'm looking at my backyard now. I'm like, why aren't we doing this? So I'm going to be checking you. We're going to be talking when we're done. But you faced a lot of criticism. And those of us that have a dream, a gnawing, a mission, we know we— and see, it kept showing up for you, right? Kept showing up for you. And so what was that, 3 times it showed up for you? 3, 4 times. So how did you get past the criticism?

Well, I just set forth. I just, um, was like, okay, what— okay, what happened is I got injured at work and I came home from work and there was an ad in the paper and it said, are you a woman? Do you have a business idea? And it was a 6— it was a course to write a business plan, a 6-month course to write a business plan.

Wow.

I was like, what?

That's a sign, right?

There's a— that's a pretty big— that's a pretty big sign. Yeah. And so I was like, holy crap. I, I said to my husband, I'm quitting my job, I'm taking this course, I'm going to start a worm business. Why not?

I love you. I love it. What I love about my husband, this is what I love most about him. In 8 years, there's never been an idea I've had that he's like, that's crazy. Ever, ever. He's like, I'm proud of you, baby. Go get it, go get it.

You know, that's what—

that support helps. Yes, we need support, not criticizers, because we, we don't know how the idea is going to work out. But so many times, family, I find, especially like the podcast, for instance, you know, it's doing so well, and my mom's like, I don't even know what you do. And so I'm like, you guys don't get to know what I do from now on. That's what I— so You know, guys out there, if you're getting criticism, just tell your supporters. Don't tell the people that are not going to be supportive of it, right?

So, and here's the thing about family. I mean, family, God bless them.

That's what my personal coach told me. He goes, just, you're from the South, Lisa, just have a bless their heart attitude about it. It's so cute. Bless your heart.

Because they want to keep you safe. They want to make sure you're okay. And they're like, they're That's a cuckoo idea. Just get a job and work until you die. Like, you'll get a gold watch in 30 years. Why do I need a watch when I retire? Stop it.

No, I want a gold watch now. So I'm going to go make some black gold for my gold watch. Well, so it sounds so playful. You dealt with the negativity and the resistance. Did the criticism cost you anything personally, or did you have to walk away from friendships or relationships in order to pursue your dream and your mission and what you believe to be your passion at that time?

Yeah, uh, well, I decided that this was so important. Yeah, me, just the idea was given to me, and this was really important, and we need it. Yeah, we need this so bad because we were exporting garbage. Yeah, 6 million people in the Greater Toronto Area, half live in condos, townhouses, without space to do outdoor composting. They didn't have a solution, and I had a solution for them. Um, so I thought— I knew it was really important. I don't have an entrepreneur background, so anyone listening going, oh, I don't, I don't know anything about that— neither did I. Yeah, I think that's the thing when you're naive and you just are like, I got an idea, I'm just gonna do it.

And well, what I love about what you did is you also filled the gap You saw the need, you were inspired, the worms kept showing up in your space, and you followed your heart.

That's it. I knew it was needed, and so I did set forth. I would have a table wherever I could to educate people. And I have a psych degree, so I'm fascinated by what people do or don't do, why they don't do what they are meant to do or whatever. I find people fascinating.

I really do.

They are fascinating. Aren't they?

That's a good way to look at them too. Well, you're so fascinating, right?

How interesting.

I'm stealing that one.

Smart enough.

How interesting. Yes. No, some people will never smarten up.

That's true. It's okay, we can't change them. Yes, we just need to be wayshowers.

You can't, you can't change them. And so follow your heart, follow your mission. And I always say on the show, if there's a gnawing that is not going away, That is your purpose. That's your purpose. I agree. Placed there by the divine God, goddess, whatever, that source energy, higher power, whatever that is for you, that was placed on your heart for a purpose. And what I love, Kathy, about what you did is you birthed the creation. You had the idea, then you birthed the idea into creation and brought it into the world. And I think that's so beautiful when we're able to do that. This podcast came about very much that same way. I have a congenital blood disease, and it's very high risk, life threatening. And I almost died again from clots at the beginning of the year, and I turned 50 right after, and I had to pivot. I was like, I'm not fulfilling my mission. And it was to finish the memoir, get this information out into people's hands, and get other people's stories out into the world. So very cool. Very cool. So laughter yoga. Okay, talk to me about this experience.

So you discovered it during a difficult time. So it was helpful to you. So, and we know from science, it's science, that laughter helps. But what is a laughter yoga experience? Educate us on that.

Yeah, so laughter yoga came about in 2012. One more person said, ew, worms in the house. And I'd heard it hundreds of times in the previous 10 years. I mean, maybe thousands. So many times I wasn't listening. I was like, la la la, no, you need this. Yeah, people don't buy what they need, they buy what they want. And they didn't want what I was flogging. So that day in 2012, I heard it, I felt it, I questioned everything. I was like, ah, what do I do, Universe? Help me, I don't know what to do. Help. I've been at this for 10 years, you know. I took on school workshops, over 100,000 students have seen my presentation.

Wow.

I've done great work. I mean, it's great. And people were still saying, ew. So I said, oh my gosh, what do I do? I don't know what to do. And the very next day I was introduced to laughter yoga. The very next day. What? And so that was 2012. Um, one more. So, okay. Um, a speaker did a, like a 5-minute introduction to laughter yoga.

Okay.

That same week in 2012, I was at a networking event. Hundreds of people. The very first woman I met was from a laughter yoga teacher, and I was like, okay, twice in one week, come on, you gotta jump on that. There's a sign.

Yeah.

And, and her club was 5-minute walk, so this was Toronto, large city.

Oh, fun.

5-minute walk from my mother-in-law's place. Okay, come on. And she would— my mother-in-law, she passed in 2021, but she's— she used to tell people, if Kathy asked me to do something, I say yes. Because it's always an adventure. So I told her, yeah, I want to be the adventurer. I said, hey Mary, you want to go to laughter yoga? And she was like, what's that? And I said, I don't know, but I don't want to go alone. So we go to— and I'll talk about what it is in a moment. So we go to laughter yoga, we walk there, and it's weird if it's your first time. It's awkward. There's no jokes. It's not comedy. There's things that inspire the laughter, but we're looking at each other, we're like What the— what is happening here?

Have we lost our minds?

Yeah, what is going on? But we were, you know, the good attendees. We're laughing, we're doing the thing, even though we're looking like, okay, weird, hahaha.

Okay, right.

We end, we go, we're walking back at the end of the session, we're walking back to her condo. It was like, oh my gosh, that was so weird. Oh yeah, that was awkward. That was so weird. And then it was like, oh, I feel great. How do you feel? Oh, I feel great too. Let's go again.

Go towards the weirdness, guys. Go towards The weirdness, right? So how you felt, you felt better.

It was so beautiful. Like, we slept great, we felt great, and so it became our date night. We would go out for dinner. My mother-in-law was so nice. She's like, we better not have garlic. It's like, no, no, as long as we both have it. And it was really beautiful. Then the club had to close. Like, she was renting space and the numbers were dwindling. This was at a very busy intersection in Toronto, like 20,000. It's Condo Ville. 20,000 people live at that corner, and attendance was dwindling because people didn't know the value of laughter yoga. And she closed. Like, you're not in business to lose business, to lose money, right? Or even break even. When people go, oh, I broke even, it's like you could have stayed home and broke even. Yeah, you don't need to do anything to break even.

Yeah.

So I said, oh, I gotta learn how to do this. I want to get trained. So I got trained as a leader. I love that so much. I got trained as a teacher, so I teach leaders now.

Oh, to spread the message and get them to open their businesses.

Yeah.

Oh, that's wonderful. Okay, so tell us what it is though.

What happens in it?

What happens in a class?

Yeah, so laughter yoga started in 1995 by a medical doctor in India. And his goal is world peace. There are clubs in over 120 countries.

Wow. Right?

Not jokes or comedy because jokes are cultural. Two people going somewhere, not funny for those two. It's probably about them.

Yeah.

Right? And like a joke in India might not— it might not land in North America.

Right.

Okay.

Right.

So there's little games to inspire the laughter. The yoga part of laughter yoga, it's not doing yoga and laughter. Laughing. It's laughing as a cardiovascular exercise.

There's a little bit— really working your core too, it sounds like.

Yes, I have rock hard abs from laughing.

I love it, I love it.

Yeah, people are like, you need to start there, you need to start with that, because our diaphragm is attached to all of our organs.

Yes.

So when we're laughing, you know, all of our organs are moving around.

Well, and, and that probably helps ease tension too, right?

Sure does. Yeah, laughter is the antidote to stress, right?

We don't play enough, do we?

We do not. We do not. And, and I think even less— I thought it was bad during the cuckoo time, but it seems like it's even bigger now. I mean, 2020, it seems even like— so BC was a little bit kinder to us, and then you know, the lockdown in Canada. We were shut down for 2 years.

Yeah.

And like, because we're, we're, um, I don't know, we're, we do what we're told, I guess. I don't know.

Anyway, lockdown, people were in isolation. There's mental illnesses now going into the DSM-5 that are pandemic-related specifically. Like, so it was a, it was a rough time. We even, we loved it. We actually loved it. But, um, it was hard, hard for us to get back out into the world. It took us a little while. We were slow to get back out into the world. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I'm an extrovert and even so before 2020, I was doing like between 100 and 200 events a year.

Wow.

And then shut down right now. Nothing.

Oh no.

Doing nothing, which I loved it too. And now somebody might say, hey, Kathy, do you want to do this thing? It's 2 weeks out. I'm like, oh yeah, that sounds fun. I'll do that. But as the date is approaching, I'm like, um, do I really want to go? And so I question, like, how do introverts who were introverts before, how do they get out at all now? I'm sure they love 2020.

Yeah, yeah, a lot.

But now, how do they get it? How do they get out now? Anyway, that's so—

I've noticed that people— this is just my personal philosophy observation. I think people— you know what, the, the 2020 to 2024, whenever, whenever we got out, um, could have brought us so close together because we all faced our mortality at the same time. But it did not, in my opinion. Just my opinion. I think people came out a little angrier.

Yeah, you know, people were nice People were nice for about the first 2 weeks. It was like, yeah, we're gonna have a little 2-week holiday, and people were nice and kind, and we were banging pots for the care workers, and we were making noise, and we were grateful. And then we're, we're, um, impatient. That's, that's the word.

So people, that's a good word for impatient now. Yes, you can see it on the roads even. I don't know about you guys up there, but yeah, here it's like Everybody's aggressive drivers now. It's like they forgot how to drive. Everybody wants to be first, and it just seems like people are, um, maybe it's not more on edge, more stressed. Yeah, yeah, more on edge, more stressed. So everybody needs to go find some. I might even go find some laughter yoga. Now I'll tell you, I'm a martial artist, so yoga is usually not my jam, but laughter is my jam. I love laughing, love it. My husband and I, we crack up every single night. That's why we're still together, I'll tell you, because we're just silly and we play and we're still friends and we still like each other. And all of that matters, you know. Absolutely.

Yes. I'm not into yoga either. That's why it's kind of a misnomer, because it is not doing yoga. The yoga part of laughter yoga is the practice of the laughter and the deep diaphragmatic breathing.

Okay, gotcha. Gotcha. That develops some really good abs, guys. Don't leave that part out. Maybe you should start with that part. Look at my abs. Just go around showing people your abs. Look at my abs, guys. So you connect worm sprouts and laughter as simple answers to complicated problems. So where's the connection there? What are we missing?

You know, I think before 2020, I thought I was a juggler. Like, what do you need? You need worms? I have them. You want sprouts?

You want laughter? What do you need?

And then I realized, like, all that thinking time, it's like, oh, 2 years to think. Okay, let me out.

Yeah.

I realized that all of my offerings, Lisa, offer a simple, sustainable, beautiful life. Worms for amending the soil. So you're managing your food scraps, you're turning it into black gold.

So you can use for the sprouts, right?

No, for the soil. So the sprouts that I'm doing is hydroponics, so it's with water. It's okay, separate. But it is nourishment. It is food. The, the, this, the worm poo, the black gold, is for growing in the garden, for your houseplants, or for in the garden. So you, because in North America we have destroyed the soil. Corn, wheat, and soy, those are our big crops, and acres and acres of corn, wheat, and soy. That's not how nature intended it. So if we're going to do that, we need to apply a lot of chemicals. And we do. And those chemicals are so harsh. You know, people will wash their vegetables or whatever in water thinking they're just washing off the chemicals.

They're not because the water has chemicals, right?

Well, not— yes, yes. And if it washed off in water, it would wash off when it rained, and it doesn't. It sticks. It sticks and it gets in. Now we've got glyphosates, which goes into the freaking vegetables. And, and so that—

so what are glyphosates?

That's one of the chemicals that they're, they're adding that is for corn, wheat, and soy, not specifically for all kinds of crops, but that gets right into the product.

Oh, okay.

So then if any bug eats it, the bug dies. So then when we eat it, it kills our bugs. Our microbiome is disrupted because of the— I was going to say the crap that we're eating.

It's okay, you could say crap on here. Crap's not going to get us an explicit rating, which by the way, our ones that have explicit ratings do so much better. So say crap. Crap is good, right?

But so, so we're growing this beautiful corn that looks lovely, there's no bugs on it because it's got so much chemical residue that the bugs can't survive. So when we eat that, it's destroying our microbiome.

And so what I think—

we're sick and we're sick, we get really— and we're getting sicker.

Yeah.

Um, yeah. So what is the, what is the connection between worms, sprouts, and laughter? So worms for amending the soil, so we're managing our scraps. Sprouts for eating, grow your own. Like, you can buy sprouted sprouts, but they're expensive. It's super fresh food. So it's— you might buy alfalfa sprouts and they smell funky or they kind of have that slimy feel. That's the bad bacteria that's already starting to grow. Your sprouts are already going bad. Throw them away and they cost a lot. So grow your own. And then the laughter for overall health and health and wellness.

Yeah, I was sprouting in our previous house with just a little box and I was doing broccoli sprouts and wheatgrass, and it was so easy to do. Yeah, it was so easy to do. Yeah. And buying so much better. Yeah.

Yeah. Buying seeds or beans in, in seed form, you know, buying organic is the way to go because you're sprouting for your health. This in, in seed form, the cost is nominal from conventional you know, sprayed or going into a store and getting it.

Yes, correct. Big difference. Because if we go like to Earth Fare up here, uh, it's way expensive because that's the organic store up here, as opposed to doing sprouting yourself. Yeah, right. Way different. Yes.

And it's fun to do, and you're in charge of the freshness.

That's true, that's true. Oh, hang on, we've got Pascal! What's up, my friend? I didn't see you. Hang on, I'm gonna put comments on screen if I can, Kathy, so you can see them. Pascal says criticism in those cases is your fuel to make your holistic dream come true. And then, your worms rock. Laughter yoga, heard of it, very cool, huge stress reliever. Cool thinking, communities, markets, bios, and natural food produced via local growers seems to pop up again and again.

Love that.

What's up, Pascal? Pascal's gonna be a guest on the podcast soon too.

Yay! Good.

So there is something wonderfully rebellious about building a business around other— around the fact that other people found it strange and you did it anyway. So how can you talk to someone right now who may have what they think is a crazy freaking idea, but it's not going away? Guys, if the idea is not going away, that may be your purpose or your mission here, truly. What would you say to them today if they're gnawing on it but they're maybe scared of what other people will think, or they keep telling themselves, no, that's too weird? What would you tell them?

This has been said before, but if not you, who? If not now, when? And why wait? Why wait, like, until everything's lined up? Because it's never going to be lined up, folks. It never is. You got to just jump in and do it. There's going to be learning curves, or you're going to make mistakes and be like, oops. I'll have to tell you, I was— I thought, okay, I'm—

I—

there was a Eco Fair, so environmental. I was like, oh my gosh, this was in '02, my very first event. So I'm like, oh, these are my people. It took, it took my husband and I 3 weeks to get all of our bins ready, do all the stuff, right, get all the product ready. 3 weeks for our first event. We went and bought one of those tents and a table.

Yeah, I've done a metaphysical fair before, I get it. It's a lot of prep work.

Yeah, so we go, we set up, we, we had like, I don't know, 30 or more bins ready to sell, and, and it was a whole weekend thing. So we're there, this— these are our people, like, of course we're going to sell out because these are our people. Oh my gosh, not one sale.

Oh no.

Until my mother-in-law came. She came the last— she came on the, on the Sunday at the end of the fair. My, my my in-laws arrived and she's like, oh, she lives in an apartment, so she wanted to— she lived— she wanted to get one of my worm bins. So she bought a worm bin. When she— when they went away, I said to my husband, they didn't even get a family discount. They paid full price.

Oh, they had to charge full price because they're our one customer. She's our one customer for all weekend. Yes, they're tough.

One bin, right? So, so, you know, you have this great expectation and Oh, Lisa, the shame, the embarrassment. Like, oh, now we're packing up all of this stuff. And I got to tell you, like, I can feel it even now, 24 years later, how that felt. And yet here I am, 24 years later, still standing, right? Because you get over it. It's like, okay, don't take so many next time because maybe you'll—

sorry, you learn as you go. You learn as you go.

You learn as you go. Like, Okay, so all right, even, even our people might not be buying, right? Because it was a ways from the car. And like so many things that you don't think about, like, oh, they might not even know that worms was an option in the house. Yeah, so you got to introduce the idea and then people go to— so I say it's about a 3-year sales cycle for a one-off. Like, I don't have repeat customers. Ah, for any entrepreneurs, Well, I need them. I do need them, but I got to keep going for more customers. Thank God I have all this energy.

Volume. Yeah, yeah, we got some energy too. So after more than 2 decades as an entrepreneur, advocate, and educator, how do you define success for you, Kathy? For you?

Success for me is waking up every day, being grateful, thinking, what am I— what am I got— what have I got to be grateful grateful for? What is on my gratitude list? Because when, when we're grateful for something, when I'm grateful for something, more things appear. And the opposite— I mean, not that I don't have bad days, everybody does. Yeah, I just have a lot of tools now. I have a lot of ways. Success for me is managing my nervous system. I think that's, that's our role today. We're in this stressful—

oh my gosh, everything's coming at us.

Everything's going on, right? There's war, there's famine, you'll never get a house, there's no mate for you.

It's expensive, gas is expensive. Yeah, yeah, right.

The world's falling apart, our house is on fire. Okay, all these things, still we're standing. I'm like, they're— it's like, oh, they're still standing. Like, they threw a pandemning at us and still here we are, we're still standing.

We are. Pascal says, winner winner chicken dinner, Kathy. Yep. Must give a shot at the title. So your inner soul fun and trying what you love as a biz or venture is cool anyway. You're your own balance. I love that. I love that. Thank you, Pascal. Thank you. Uh, what I love about what you did, Kathy, is you said a soul yes, right? It kept presenting itself, so you kept seeing it in your field, and you were like, okay, I don't know what this means, but I'm going to say yes to this weird stuff, this laughter yoga, these worms and sprouts for health. I'm going to say yes. And you kept saying the soul yes. And that's such a beautiful journey. Such a beautiful journey. I want to— how do we— can we get— do you ship worms? Do you ship worms?

I'm actually— I never did ship them out of the country. I was only shipping within Canada. I'm only talking about worms now. I always sell worms locally. I sell worms locally now, but I'm really— because of 2020, we have a global mental health tsunami. I mean, it was here before, it's just bigger now. It is. Because how do you torture people? Isolation. Yeah, I said no. Even in prison, you don't want to be in solitary confinement. Yeah, right. So we have this— I think you said it— we have this mental health pandemic. It really is so big, and I want people to care about the planet. I truly do. But when you're in a mental crisis, it's not possible.

You guys, take care of you first.

You first.

That's it, right?

So now I'm focusing on me.

Yeah, regulate. Exactly what you said. Regulate your nervous system. And you said a keyword too— tools. Get some new tools. So, Kathy, do you work with people? Are you writing a book? I don't know, you seem like you'd be an author. A great book. Like, how can people get in touch with you if they have questions about what— about sprouting, about, uh, laughter yoga, if they want to get credentialed, um, if they want to start composting with worms? How do they reach you?

Yeah, so my laughter page is kathysclub.com.

Fun.

I would love to invite you and your listeners to my free laughter club. It's, um, Tuesday mornings 9:30 AM Eastern, 30 minutes of super fun self-care. Kathy's Club.com. Yes, yeah, incorporate tapping, brain gym, qigong. We're celebrating 6 years. We started in June of 2020. 6 years of our congratulations. Thank you, it's beautiful. I have a wonderful following on there. I get 25 to 30 little Zoom squares Wow, that's a good number. Yeah, 3 or 4 are groups. Long-term care, community living, seniors and special needs is my wheelhouse for laughing.

That's a great idea. We play music in nursing homes is what my husband and I do, so they love it. So yeah, yeah, yeah. And you get them to open up or have memories, and yeah, it's beautiful. That's one. Although one lady was like, go home, go home. She apologized the next time. My husband was so excited though. He was like, My first heckler! He was so excited about it. He was like, yes, I got my very first heckler! He's finally going to have like a live, live show. We're doing a benefit for the VFW, so we're gonna have a live show. So, because normally he just plays for the dogs at home or in the nursing home, I was like, babe, you're too talented to be doing this, so you need to be out in the world. But, and I just, I'm his metronome. So Kathy, talk about weirdness. I have a cabasa, I have a gyro, I have chimes. I have, um, a foot drum, like any weird instrument that makes noise. I have, um, clusters of nuts that I use to make noise. So that's all I'm doing. I'm his metronome behind him with these— this box of weirdness, right?

People are like, what do you do? I'm the percussionist. They're like, you play drums? I'm like, nope, I just play random noise with random sound tools.

And it works.

Yeah, well, the thing is, is when he plays, he's actually played classical guitar since he was 5. And so, but when he plays, he'll get off, right? So he needs— I'm just, I'm sitting in the back, I'm staying on beat. I was a dancer, I was a martial artist, so I know rhythm. So I just stay on the beat with random weird instruments. I love that.

That's so great.

Washboard. I do the washboard. Board, which is super fun. I'm from the swamps of Louisiana, so that's very fitting. I had a guy hand-make my washboard in Louisiana, so that's cool. So yeah, we, we get into some weirdness in our household. We like, we like the weird stuff. So all right, laughter, laughter club, what's it called? Kathy's—

Kathy's Chuckle Club.

Oh, Kathy's Chuckle Club, and it's every Tuesday at what time?

9:30 AM Eastern.

Okay, perfect. All right, and we're gonna put the link, guys. You don't have to worry about finding it, and you just It'll be a clickable link where you can sign up, join her. How else, how else do people reach you if they have—

I also have a training. I'm also a laughter yoga teacher, so I teach leaders.

Okay.

It's wonderful for anybody that wants to. I do online or in person.

Okay.

And, and that information's on my, uh, laughter page as well.

Oh, we have so much to talk about, Kathy.

Oh, and it's so wonderful for people, like for yoga teachers, to add laughter or school teachers, yeah, in corporations. It's not necessary to lead laughter club, but just to have the history of why laughter is so beneficial. Laughter is medicine. It's complementary magic medicine. There's no contraindications. Like, you don't— no one's OD'd from laughing. It changes your state in an instant. Oxygenates our beautiful body. Our body—

one of your regulation tools, I'm assuming. Yes, it is.

Absolutely. Yeah.

One of your regulations. Well, Kathy, that is so beautiful. And you know what? Congratulations for 25 years ago saying yes to the weirdness, even though people didn't believe in it. You did. And you know what? You are happy and content and joyous and satisfied, and that's what we're all looking for, right?

I, I hope so. I, I think that, uh, because we're living in this stressful state, we've made— we've normalized stress to such a point that we have trouble experiencing joy. And joy is our birthright, right? So we feel guilty sometimes if we are experiencing joy because we're like, oh, we get in our head, there's so much stuff going on. How can I be having fun over here when they're struggling over there? My response when people say, how can I laugh, there's so much going on in the world, I say it's essential that we laugh because there's so much going on in the world.

We have to laugh. I love it. And Pascal says, percussion or the heartbeat of music. It was a strato-fab to see you both. Gotta go, big project to attend to. Pascal, good luck. Thanks for joining us today. We appreciate you so much. All right, Kathy, we're gonna make sure you have— we have all your links so people can find you. Um, before we go, we always ask our guests 2 questions. Are you ready for them?

I'm ready.

Okay. All right. The first question is, in your own life, what do you feel like you performed in order to survive, and what did dropping that role mask or performance do to improve your life? Hmm.

Well, I was a secretary for 20 years.

Okay.

So I was a people pleaser, and it did serve me at the time. I mean, I guess it did. I mean, I was a great secretary because, like, what a great job for a people pleaser, right? Tell me what to do and I'll do it better than anyone else because I don't want to lose my job, right? So it served me at that time. How it served me more— like, I would say I'm fully recovered now. I'm not a people pleaser at all anymore.

Recovered people pleaser. Yes.

Um, I would say I don't give a crap anymore what you think.

I'm going through menopause, my bullshit filter is gone. I'm like, guys, I'm telling everybody, no, they— I am rocking this boat, girl, let me tell you. Because I, I just, I have to conserve my energy, seriously. Like, and I— it's either a soul yes or a hard no. That's it. Usually there's no gray, you know. And what I love, you said something earlier that I wanted to circle back to too. The event. Say you say yes to something, and people pleasers, here's what they would do. Two weeks would come up in that event and they don't want to go to that event, but they'll force themselves to go to that event, right? Because they committed to the event. Friends, there is nothing wrong with backing out if you don't want to go, right? It— that's, that's part of saying, you know what, I don't want to.

I changed my mind.

Yes, I changed my mind. Sorry, guys. You know, with no defense, no over— because there's people pleasers, boy, did we over-explain ourselves.

Yeah. Oh my gosh, I would cancel—

yeah, I would cancel a doctor's appointment that I'm paying because it was only 24 hours notice, and I'd be like, I got this and this. It's, you know, cancel the appointment and they're charging you anyway. So yeah, I— and I would say I'm sorry for my existence, like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you know, take I'm sorry unless you are relating to somebody's experience or saying condolences for any losses that they have. But say, I apologize, if you've done something you feel guilty for, you know, been an ass to your husband, whatever happens on occasion in menopause. Um, so yeah, but stop apologizing for your existence and the fact that you draw breath. And find some, some laughter yoga. And Kathy, you and I are going to talk about that certification because it's interesting. It's interesting how life happens. I've been looking for my next certification to add to my list of many, many certifications. So, all right, friends. Oh, one more question, Kathy. One more question. Question. Last question. What do you think we need to be talking more about? What conversation should we be having that we're not?

I know a lot of people are talking about mental health, but we really need to be upfront with how we're feeling. Yeah, you need to not just put it aside and mask it and do the things. We need to confront it head-on because, you know, especially feelings like shame— shame can only exist in silence.

Yep.

As soon as you voice whatever you're feeling ashamed about, as soon as you voice it, it has less power already.

It absolutely does. It releases it a bit immediately. You know, I spent 20 years struggling and nobody knew it, and by the time I came forward with it. There was like, there's no way that was happening in the background. And I said it absolutely was. So please, guys, we'll say this again, and we said this on the last— with our last guest. If you are struggling, share it with somebody who is safe for you, please, to share it with. Because if you share it with the wrong person, they may shut you down permanently. So, you know, make sure they've proven themselves to show up for you and support you, and then figure out what to do from there. But step one is admitting to yourself that you're struggling. Then and only then can you take that to somebody else that you love, care about, and are, and are in service to each other and, and share it. But please don't struggle in silence. Yeah, Kathy, I think that's a great point. And on that, we're gonna go ahead and close out, friends. I'm gonna ask you guys the same question. What are you performing? In order to survive?

And what might setting down that role mask or performance do to help you? Just something to consider. I'm Lisa Lacey, your host, and we've been with our guest Kathy. And when you find the answer, we welcome you to the edge. We'll see you next time. Thank you, Kathy.

Thank you, Lisa.