Transcript of The Longest Distance: Men’s Mental Health, Male Loneliness & Emotional Healing with Daniel Sterling

Welcome to Notes from the Edge, where we have the conversations we should have been having all along. We talk about the things that we're not talking about. I'm your host, Lisa Lacey, writer, trauma educator, executive advisor, and author of the upcoming memoir Notes from a Certified Madwoman. Welcome to the edge. Hey, hey friends, welcome to another episode of Notes from the Edge. I am your host Lisa Lacey, and this is the place where we have the conversations we should have been having all along. Guess what? You're probably not talking about it, but we're gonna talk about it today. And today's guest is Daniel Sterling. And what happens when a man spends his life chasing achievement, recognition, the next version of success, only to discover what was really important was the few inches between his head and his heart. Today's guest is a writer, memoirist, speaker whose work explores relationships, communication, male isolation— we want to dig into that— and what it takes to raise boys into emotionally whole men. Daniel grew up in the early years in the Wild West of Aspen, Colorado, where risk became second nature. He pursued success through professional alpine ski racing, reaching the top 10 in the U.S. before moving into television news broadcasting, screenwriting, and filmmaking.

But the recognition he believed would bring fulfillment ultimately left him disillusioned and searching for something he could not yet name. And it looks like we lost Daniel, so I'm going to finish telling you about Daniel while he comes back into the Studio. Okay, friends, after emotionally cratering in midlife— I love this, that men crater too in midlife— Daniel crossed paths with a remarkable mentor who introduced him to self-study, personal accountability, and a more examined way of living. That relationship helped him confront destructive patterns and reconsider ideas. His first book is Hungry: A Memoir of Self-Discovery, Furthering of a Soul, and Evolution of Spirit. It's candid, it's humorous, and we are going to wait for Daniel to come back into the studio. Let me see what happened.

Hello.

You missed your whole awesome bio.

That was an awesome entry, uh, preamble, an intro. Thank you.

Welcome back. It's from the end. We, we went ahead and told a little bit more about you, but we're at the part where we're highlighting your book, and I want to make sure we do because Hungry: A Memoir of Self-Discovery, Furthering of the Soul, and the Evolution of the Spirit. And I think that's the journey we all need to be on. So welcome back to Notes from the Edge, Daniel. How you doing today, my friend?

Very well, Lisa. Thank you so much for having me on. Excited to talk to you.

Yeah, I'm excited for this combo. I think it's much needed. So you have said that at 8 years old, um, you found what you called a chemical surrogate for affection. So what does that mean and how did that shape you into adulthood?

So yes, um, I was 8 when I won my first ski race and I was flooded with all these good chemicals, And I was like, ooh, this is good. So I was, from that point forward, cuz I ski raced another 16 years, I was just so determined to win and feel that again. And really what I was looking for was recognition and accolades, but really to be seen. And because, I mean, don't get me wrong, my parents gave me a lot of really good things, but there was pretty much a free-for-all in our house. 5 kids, 2 cousins living with us. And so I was one of the youngest too, so I was largely unseen. And, um, I had to be a quiet kid because I had an older brother who just terrorized me. And anytime I spoke up, it gave him an excuse to go after me. So I withdrew. And so I'm, I'm looking around for a substitute for the love in my home that had gone missing. Sadly, sadly. So I became a very driven, determined, edgy kid and grew into the same version of that as a man.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, Daniel. I did the same thing with performance. I was a competitive dancer and an actor, uh, from the time I was 5, and that was my escape, and that's where I found the applause. And it was never enough though for my family. It was never enough no matter what I achieved, um, and I, I Did that well into adulthood until I hit a total mental collapse. So, but that's a story for another day. So you became, you became, you used that drive to become a top alpine ski racer in the country and later pursued broadcasting, filmmaking, public visibility. When did healthy ambition become the performance that you felt like you had to maintain and that became a chore for you?

Well, let me just say that I didn't— I don't— looking back, I don't consider any of my ambition to be healthy because I was fixated and so emotionally invested in these positions in the world that I was so out of balance and so misguided that none of it was healthy. But I will say that I wouldn't change any of it. I don't believe in regrets, number one. But I also know that I had to go through all of it. I had to live it and suffer with it honestly, because that's what I did until I was 39, and that's when I was writing screenplays. So 5 screenplays later, I pretty much bottomed out. You talking about— you talk about emotionally cratering, that's what I did. And that's when I met this mentor, and she began to talk to me and slowly began to reframe my entire life in the best way possible. But I look at those first 30 years as a necessary preamble for where I am. Because I, as she used to say, the only thing people listen to is pain. And that's what it took for me to just be desperate and broken and discouraged that I began to look around and say, there's gotta be a better way, a better way to live.

And there's gotta be more to life than this.

Just, and a better way to feel, right?

Yes. Oh yeah.

Yeah. A better way to feel about yourself.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because eventually, so I find it so fascinating because you describe this emotionally cratering in midlife. Um, right before you got your mentor. And I, I love that because I am, I'm going through menopause right now and it's the biggest neurobiological transition any woman goes through in her life. We don't talk about it enough. Um, and it has transitioned everything, my boundaries. I mean, it changed me on a cellular level. And I think it's important to know that men go through a version of that too at times. Um, so talk to us about the, the collapse and, and how she didn't come into your life by accident. That was serendipitous at, at the least. Um, so talk to us about the collapse and then how she appeared for you.

So, uh, I am convinced that there is some higher power that's been looking out for me, honestly. Because the way I met her was all these moving parts. Um, I was living in Southern California and the final straw there, I mean, I was broke, behind on rent actually, and couldn't get a job at Blockbuster Video of all places.

Mm.

Because I thought, well, learn about movies. I'll watch a lot of movies and I'll be a screenwriter. So I ended up going to Tahoe and working with a friend siding a house. He was a— I was a carpenter, he was too. So I went to one day of a writer's conference and met this woman, and we sort of fell into bed and fell into a working relationship. She was a business writer and a novelist. She was editing a book for Lloyd, who was a psychologist who had a men's group, and he took pity on me, invited me to the men's group where I met this gentleman Daniel, and he said— I got to know him, we became friends— and he said, you should meet Glad, she's amazing. And I said, sure, why not? And she said— I said, what's amazing about it? She says, well, she sees everything, she's conscious. And I thought, conscious, what's that? So I met her, and the minute I shook her hand. I swear to God, she looked all the way through me, and I just felt, oh my God, I think I'm in for it. So we sat down to dinner, and she said, well, tell me about your childhood.

So I spun this story that I have. I kind of like the story, you know, um, about a mother who's pretty amazing. She went on this game show and won $15,000, tic-tac-toe. And that was seed money to build our ski lodge in Aspen. And she was a writer and my brother was an Olympian. So I told her this, glad this story, I spun my tale of the family. And at the end of it, she looked at me and she said, "Well, that all sounds great. Why are you so miserable?" And I thought, oh my God, am I that transparent? And apparently I was. But that was—

or she was just that good. Some of us are just that good.

Yeah, yeah.

And well, I, I love that because— oh, we lost Daniel again. Daniel keeps clicking the off button. I'm not sure what's happening, guys. When he first came on, we were having sound issues. Hang on, let me message him. What's up?

Sorry, don't know what's going on, but here we are.

We're good, we're good. Well, it's the energy, right? Maybe it's the energy that we're, uh, we're putting out today. So, okay, I want to talk about this. Because this is at the core of how you work with people and what you teach. Um, you call the distance from the head to the heart one of the longest distances you have ever traveled, and you kept living primarily from your head. So what helped you get embodied and into your heart finally as a man?

Love it. Great question. So when I would get in a difficult place with myself, this is where I was. I became very mental. And when I met her, really, I was my, I was my ego. I mean, I was my story. I was a ski racer. I was a writer. You know, I was all these things that I was propping up my insecurities is what I was doing very clearly. So Um, but I was always a feeling kid, you know. I, I always had heart, and I, I liked who I was when I was in my heart. But I only allowed myself to go there with typically with girlfriends, right? Because with the men in my town and the boys, the older boys who were a bunch of hardasses, it was not safe to do that. So I was very guarded with all of that, a lot of armor. So Very much so. And so it, it was a process of, um, coming to know myself so well that I could get into my heart instantly because I, as I gained this self-knowledge and began to understand understand my own values and who I was and who I wanted to be, then I became much more comfortable in the world.

And I could respond to any situation and say, okay, what's going on? And who— what do I want to do about it? And who do I want to be in the moment? So I can access my heart at any time, but I'm very discerning about that. It depends on who I'm with, you know, is this a person that, you know, I wanna give that to and I wanna have that trust.

Yes, exactly.

Absolutely. Very much so.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, fascinating. So that answers your question, Bob. It does. It answers it perfectly. And what's so interesting in, in, in my life, I'm, I'm working with my transformational coach right now to drop some armor. You know, I grew up in a situation where it was toughen up, suck it up, man up, and I to man up. I was in male-dominated industries my whole life. Um, I got a lot of armor up. Um, but, um, it would be vulnerable with the wrong people, people that were not safe. And boy oh boy, that can make you not want to do it. So friends, when you, when you, when you drop your armor for the first time, make certain that it's with somebody who has earned your your wisdom and your trust, you know, through proving that.

Lisa, you touch on something that I think is a really important issue. Um, being a woman, I can't imagine what it's like to go out into corporate world, as an example, where to advance, and, you know, I feel like in many ways you got to become very male. And I hear stories about women that wanna just come home and put all that down. Yeah. And, um, be taken care of a little bit, be nurtured, loved, cared about. Um, so I have a lot of compassion for women that live very male energy all the time because it's not a happy place to be.

At least, yeah, it was, it was a tough gig. And I was a martial artist for 11 years. I'm not training currently because I've got a knee injury. I'm nursing a blood clot, actually, that I'm nursing in my leg. Long story there. I have a congenital blood disease. But yeah, I was— it was my job to educate, you know, groups of 300 to 500 physicians at a time. And they're a hard crowd. They're a really hard crowd. So Yes. And again, I got told to man up, so I was like, well, okay, I guess this is what we're doing. I even have some guy friends sometimes that I'm like, I'm, I'm a female. I got like, I'm not a dude, I'm not a dude, because sometimes they'll say dude things. So yeah, I have to remind them sometimes. Yeah, I have to remind them sometimes. So we hear a great deal about loneliness right now, and I believe there is a loneliness epidemic right now. And we have never been so, quote, connected digitally but so disconnected on a human level. Isolation is running rampant, um, and especially men. So what are boys taught at a young age?

Because, you know, for all of us, this stuff starts in childhood, friends. It does. So you got to go back and look at it. That's part of the work. What are we teaching our boys directly or indirectly, maybe unconsciously, that later makes things like vulnerability and intimacy and asking for help feel not safe or maybe even dangerous?

A huge topic, and I'm writing about it now. So I guess you could say the premise of this book I'm writing is really I'm presenting myself as The best example is a bad example. So my childhood, you could look at it and say to parents, don't do that, because, um, you know, uh, I joke about Aspen, but back when I was growing up, there was something in the water, I swear to God, because there was a lot of hard-ass fathers and sons and It was treacherous. A lot of male aggression and tying poor kids to tape them to the flagpole at Halloween. That was one of our traditions. It's like, it's just horrendous. So I would never presume to speak for anyone else or what it is that they're doing to boys today, but I can only speak from my own experience, and that is that Um, we gotta have parents that are in balance. And so the kidneys—

and also know your children, know who they are, right? If they are a little more sensitive, if they are a little more emotional. You know, my, my current husband, we're in the South, we're in the South, and he is a very sensitive soul. He is very emotionally intelligent, and he just wanted to— he was a classically trained guitarist since he was 5 years old, but they made him play football, forced him to play football. He was a small kid, but that's what you did down here, you play football, right? So just something that simple is an example of not knowing who your kid is, right? He didn't want to do it. It hurt. It scared him. He was little.

Yes.

Um, in a position that was painful, and all he wanted to do was play Metallica on his guitar, right? He wanted to be in the band. So I, I think it's important to know our children as humans outside of us. Does that make sense, right? Yeah.

Well, yeah, I mean, that, that That's setting a low bar, for the love of God. I mean, if we're going to have kids, we got to raise them. So that means engaging with them. It's like, what is it that you really want to do? So your poor husband forced to play football. My mother signed me up for piano lessons after school when I was without a packed lunch. So second, third grade, I was starving and school all day and then having to walk 3 blocks for piano lessons, still so hungry I couldn't see straight. And nobody paid attention. My mother certainly did not and did not properly feed me. So I suffered just as your husband suffered in a different way, but the end result was the same, and that is my mother did not see me or my needs. Yes, and that's, that's a tragedy.

Yes. And it affects your relationship choices and relationship behaviors well into adulthood. So, and, you know, yeah. And so in our relationship, I think it's the first time for both of us that we can fully be ourselves without having to wear any mask at all. And it's so lovely, man. It just, it's so freeing because you don't have to think. It's one less thing to think about.

Well, yeah, when I, when I trust this person that, that they're not gonna trample this disclosure, this very vulnerable disclosure that I'm about to make to them. Yes, that's everything. Once that trust is established, then, then two people can really soar in a relationship. Yeah, I, I know.

Exactly. Well, you are writing about this. I'm so excited. You are writing about Raising Boys Into Whole— I love that— Whole Balanced Men, um, and Balancing the Masculine and Feminine. I love that too. Um, what do parents, mentors, and men themselves do differently, um, if we want not only men to heal as adults now but to prevent boys from having to heal when they're 50 years old?

So I would just return to what we were just talking about, and that is that both parents engaging the boy, and if they pay attention, they're going to know what's important to them, what upsets them, what, what they really want to do in this life, in this young childhood. And give them the freedom to do that.

And ask. And give them choices, yes.

Ask. Not an interrogation, but a genuine interest. What is it that interests you? And then I think it's really important to celebrate effort, not results, but, you know, I was so impressed by how hard you worked on that project. I mean, for a kid to hear that, man, who— what kid wouldn't want to hear that? Yeah. So I never heard it, and I never heard it until I was 40 years old. So to, to, um, nurture a boy in that way they grow up into a young man who goes out into the world so much more, uh, sure of themselves, quietly confident in who they are, and with no need to impress. And these— this swirl of insecurities that drive young people crazy, they don't have to deal with that. They're still figuring things out. Their brain is still forming.

Right.

But they have so much of a better sense of themselves that they are so far ahead of everybody else. It's incredible. So it honestly doesn't take a lot. It takes nurturing and rigor and guidelines and structure and love and support. So these masculine and feminine.

Yeah.

And effort without question, and it actually shouldn't even be said. I mean, effort on the part of the parents. So be engaged in who they are and what they want.

I love that, engaged. I love that word, Daniel. Be engaged, be curious, ask questions to get the genuine answers, and then honor the answers that you hear. I love that. Now talk to me about the balance between the masculine and feminine in boys and men.

So this may not be the most politically correct thing to say.

We're on a show called Notes from the Edge. You're safe.

So I think that having a little fear of the father is probably a good thing. Because it calls kids to attention. It's like, ooh, I don't want to disappoint him. And I know if I, if I go with my friends and do this bad thing and break his windows and, or steal this, I know he's going to be pissed. And do I, I really want to live with that consequence, the disappointment, um, that I would see on his face? I think that's healthy.

Yeah.

So You know, they get from the mother the warmth and the love and the support, not the hovering, God forbid, and the wanting to fix everything for them. I mean, kids need to fall and fail and get up and fall and fail and get up again and struggle and look to their parents to say, you know, am I okay? And the father says, you're good. Go and play with your friends. And, um, if it's bad enough and they, you know, they need the mother and it's, you know, a cut, it's serious and it's Band-Aids and a little first aid. Yeah. But put them back in the game and let them figure this out on their own.

Well, because what happens if you hover and you do everything for them, guess what you get? You get a human being— I know this firsthand— you get a human being that does not know how to make decisions for themselves.

Yep. And problem solve.

Yep.

And, and understand that it's uncomfortable to fail. It's uncomfortable to, you know, be uncertain and not have the answer, but to work through that that. On the other side of that is pride in oneself and assurance and the thought that I can get through this because I got through these other 10 things that I just did. So I have great faith in me. And yeah, faith in yourself, that actually is evolution. That's what it's supposed to look like.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Yeah, if we, um, and you know, look, if there's, if there's parents out there listening and say your, your boys are of an age now, they're almost out of the house, it's never too late to re-engage. It's never too late. Trust me, I had to reconcile my daughter. I had 3 years in the house of me in recovery and Um, we learned a lot during those 3 years. So it's, it's never too late to re-engage with your children. It's not. But guess what? You got to work on you. You got to work on you so you're coming at them as a whole person to help them be a whole person.

That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. You got to work on you. Yeah. So go ahead.

I was going to say that for a parent to go and take ownership of some way that they failed their kid, there's a lot of power in that, and it releases everybody involved. It's like, I, I'm very sorry that, you know, I divorced your father, and here's— here was my role in Here's what I did, and I'm very sorry that I handled you this way. I'm very sorry that I handled my business this way. I was doing the best that I could in the moment, but I owe you an apology.

Yep, goes a long, long, long way. And then change to behavior.

Yeah, that we have to follow up and, you know, be that person now. It's like, I'm not gonna do that anymore. I'm not gonna be that person in your life. So yeah, because language is, I mean, an empty apology that doesn't do anybody any good. So the behavior is everything. We gotta follow up and be that person.

Because words are just words until they're actions. Words are just words until they're actions. So, well, Daniel, where can people find your book? When's it releasing? When's the new book releasing?

Well, that's a nice thought. I wish I could tell you. I, um, so I've— the, the memoir is finished and I'm shopping it to literary— it's 152 of them actually, so, uh, and publishers as well. So it's a, it's a hard nut to crack. And so I'm learning that social media presence is the secret. So there's no book out yet, but I'm working on it, believe me, and in the process writing one. So you can find me, I have a Substack. I've written, I'm starting to write newsletters, which are excerpts from the books, which is kind of fun. And I'm learning, AI is actually teaching. So Substack is Daniel Sterling Writer, and Instagram is Daniel Sterling Writer. And the website, the author website is Daniel stirling.com. So, all right guys, you don't have to write that down.

We'll make sure you have all the links right here. We'll pull all the links where you can just click directly on them. So we just wanted you to say it, but yeah, we make sure you guys just listen. Don't— we'll, we'll have clickable, clickable links for you. Well, Daniel, before we close out, we always ask our guests 2 questions. Are you ready?

I'm ready.

All right, in your own life, what did you perform in order to survive, and what did dropping that role, mask, or performance do to improve your life or change it?

What do you just survive? That's your first question.

What did you perform in order to survive? And what did dropping that role, mask, or performance do for you?

Uh, great questions. So I mentioned before that I was my ego. I was a ski racer. I was, you know, on television doing all this crazy stuff as an outdoor reporter, and then I was a screenwriter. And so that's how I self-identified. That, I guess you could call it a performance because it was. And I, I wanted to know who that person, who I was beyond all that, but I was sort of clutching all of that to me because it was all I had out in the world. And so when I showed up with my mentor, I was my ego. And so as I began to set all that aside, because at the time I was sort of full of myself, even though I didn't have a lot of reason to be, but I was argumentative and defended. And so as I began to drop all that and embrace, I guess you could say, a more humble person. It was incredibly liberating where I didn't have to have the answer and I didn't have to fight and I didn't have to argue. And I could be very discerning about, you know, what, what I took part in in the world.

But it was a great day when I could say, you know, if I say some snarky thing to my sister or a friend trying to be funny, I can grab it immediately and go, "Ooh, I think I just went a little far. If I did, let me know." So I don't have to defend it. It's like, "No, it was just humor. I was just playing with you. Don't take it so seriously. What's your problem?" So it became about ownership and accountability. And that was a great day for me.

It's a great day. So much freedom in it because then we don't have to pretend anymore because the performance is exhausting. So last question is, what do you wish we were having conversations about more often? What do we need to be talking about that we're not?

Well, accountability, personal accountability is huge. Communication. Communication is huge. And the two to me go hand in hand because whatever is happening, if I'm in a dialogue with whoever it is, it doesn't matter. Those are just variables. But I have to assess, you know, what it is they're saying to me. Is it mine or is it not mine? So I can, first off, I'm gonna take ownership if it is mine. And, um, good Lord, I'm losing my train of thought here.

No, you're spot on. You're spot on. Personal accountability is what we need to be talking more about because guess what? If everybody in this globe took personal accountability, boy oh boy, this would be a completely different place. Because instead of all playing the blame game or the victim game or the it's you game or the divisive game, um, we would be working on ourselves. Because I'm telling you, when you work on yourself, everything around you gets exponentially better. Absolutely. When you, when you create consciousness. Yeah. And consciousness, you talked about awareness.

Yeah, very much so. Yeah, I have to know myself and, yes, you know, my blind spots, my defenses, all of that. So when I become less defended, then I'm going to be a much more pleasant person to be in company with. I mean, it's really pretty simple.

It's simple, but it's hard in application. Hard to do. Yeah.

So yeah, if you can put down the defenses and take ownership of whatever it is that I've done that where I've stepped in it or gone too far, take ownership of that and it starts to change my life in really great ways.

They're amazing.

Where I don't have to be defended and, um, you know, accusatory, and it's all about the other person. So I go in first.

Yeah, apologize first, be of service. Yeah, own your stuff, know what's yours. I love it. I love all of it. Well, Daniel, thank you so much, guys. You don't have to write his stuff down. We're going to put the links right here where you can just click everything. Uh, Daniel, we're excited to see when, not if, the new book gets signed, uh, by an agent and then into publishing. Um, in the meantime, guys, you can find him on his socials and his website. And don't forget, ask yourself, what did you perform in order to survive? And what do you think dropping that role mask or performance would do to improve your life? I'm Lisa Lacey, and when you find the answer to that Welcome to The Edge. Thank you so much, Daniel.

Thank you, Lisa. Great show.