Transcript of Suicide, Radical Listening & the Truths We Leave Unsaid with Sean Wellington New

I'm a Gator, I'm a Gator.

Oh, I'm just a ghost sports girl. Welcome, my friends. Welcome back to an episode of Notes from the Edge.

I am your host, Lisa Lazy, and this is the place where we have the conversations we should have been having all along. Guess what? You ain't talking about it, but apparently with Sean today, we're gonna be talking about it.

Our special guest today is Sean Wellington.

Hey guys, just a content note, We're going to be having a very candid discussion because this is Notes from the Edge about suicide and ideation and grief and some heavy stuff. If you need to tap out now, please do so. Take care of yourself as you listen. All right. Sean Wellington is the founder and host of Suicide Noted. He is a longtime podcaster. It is an independent, independent podcast. He has candid long-form— I hate that we call conversations now long-form conversations, but we have to. With suicide attempt survivors and people who have experienced suicidal ideation. Since launching his podcast in 2020— what a great time to do it for people that were so isolated— he has facilitated more than 400 interviews with survivors across 47 states, 27 countries, listeners around the world. He's logged more than 3,000 hours editing human speech This is interesting. And shaping complex personal narratives through his private practice as a narrative coach and audio architect. He helps people give voice to difficult histories, high-stakes transitions, and truths that have remained unsaid. He is available for speaking, institutional training focused on narrative architecture. We're going to talk about what that is, Sean, and suicide conversations with radical listening.

Sean, welcome to Notes from the Edge.

How you doing today, my friend?

I'm better after that introduction. You made me—

well, that's all you did.

I mean, I have busted my ass for a while. Yeah, that's true.

Well, and it's— it always sounds different when somebody else is saying it. When you're like, hey, I'm awesome, it's harder to say. I'll say it for you, you're awesome.

So Sean, we're just gonna— we're gonna either talk about the questions that I have for you, or we're gonna ditch them all together. What I want to know— what I want to know right now is What happened for you in 2020 to make you go, I need to do such a bold, ballsy podcast and have survivors on? What happened?

Um, bullet version, ready?

Yeah, go.

Late '90s, best friend kills himself.

Uh, okay.

A few years later, Sean gets sick. Sometimes Sean talks in third person, he doesn't know why. Uh, has a weird intermittent, probably autoimmune thing, and it doesn't get fixed. It doesn't get named. He goes to a lot of doctors. I gotta stop saying he— I'm right here. Anyway, uh, I learned quickly that people— I learned quickly that people, friends, family, co-workers, clinicians, doctors, are not good at listening. And it—

at that time Right.

It became very loud for me. It's only my experience. And that, uh, it's not that I hadn't experienced bad listening before. It's just when you're sick and you're desperate and your life is falling apart and you really need someone to shut the fuck up and listen, you very quickly realize how few people there are like that. And that's—

and you realize who your friends are. Oh man, do you realize who your friends are really fast?

Of course, of course. And, and And that's the first time I started to think, when it goes on for months that turn into years, I'm checking out. If this doesn't get better by a certain period of time, there's no way I can exist in this world. I can't navigate this space constantly feeling like shit, losing friends. I never go out. I don't have my— it's just, it wrecks your life.

Yeah.

So I'm giving you a sort of 20-year-plus history consolidated. In 2000, late 2007, I have a hospital stay, terrible experience. Psych unit, wrong place. Desperation. Okay, this is One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Not for me. About 10 years later, second stay at a really good prestigious place.

Sick for a while.

Well, it gets complicated with physical and mental health, right? They overlap and it gets weird. At 2000—

just a heads up, I have a congenital blood disease that's high risk and life-threatening. Almost just died again at the beginning of the year and then turned 50 right after. That's why this podcast exists.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

I know, just like survived 10 events of pulmonary embolisms. Like, they usually drop people.

That'll give you the— that'll give you the motivation. So real quick, second hospital stay, 2019. Bad experience. So the point is, I get out now, I'm like 50, or at that time, not quite 50. This is the time when you'd be like, damn, you look good for over 50.

But you look good with those red glasses over 50. Yeah.

But no, I had, I had gone to a couple a couple of conferences about suicide. I heard the speakers, I say, this is ridiculous.

What was ridiculous about it?

It was fluffy, it was bullshit, it was all recovery.

False positivity shit, stuff like that.

Toxic positivity, recovery arcs. There's a place for it. However, there was no place for everybody else. I literally was in the back of a conference room in Washington, DC, took out a piece of paper or a pad that I had, and I wrote Suicide Noted. I was like, oh, that's a cute name. I'm the type of guy that would go through a thousand names. No, no, that's the name. You know, it still took me a few months to go and make the podcast because whatever, I just— I'm all over the place with ideas. Yeah, but I looked and I researched and I said, who's out there having honest conversations with people who've tried to kill themselves or think about it? And the answer was not zero, but very few, and nobody doing it the way I thought it could be done.

Gotcha.

So on— in July, I just sat my ass down as a half joke and figured out the stuff that tends to be overwhelming. By 2020, it's not that hard to start a podcast. Yeah, even for a guy like me.

Yeah.

Who knows shit about tech. And, and from the first conversation I had with Courtney in Louisiana.

I'm from Louisiana. So obviously Louisiana.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, this is my lane. And now it's over 6 years. And I haven't missed it. I haven't missed a week. I haven't missed a week.

Wow. Congrats.

My friend. Talk, talk to me in 6 years.

I know. I know. I'm like, how the hell am I gonna keep this up?

What's crazy is there's still— when I say nobody's talking about it, I don't mean literally nobody. Of course I don't know all the conversations that are happening in the world right now, but I'm going by my experience, basically for what I can find online.

And you were looking. I was looking.

Of course. Yeah.

So I'm looking for— to hear the stories. I can't really find them. Couple of exceptions. There's a woman that did some great work, thought her work was very important, and I said, I want to go harder, I want to go deeper, I want to be respectful and ethical and responsible in the way I do it. But I think a lot of the stuff that is being done is being done with kid gloves. It is not helping anybody. And all the safe stuff is the safe for the person— is everybody else but the person who wants to talk about it.

Yeah, because it silences us, right?

100%. 100%. 100%.

Silences us. That's true.

I won't do the 1000%.

Yeah.

Uh, there's a place for some of this stuff. It is born presumably out of something. With good intentions, but what often gets missed is what trickles down. And you cannot measure silence. I've yet to find a way. So let me tell you how many people are out there that are silenced. And when I say that, and I know I go on and on, I'm going to rant. You need to cut me off. You don't know who's being silenced. That's the irony for lack of a better word.

No, we don't know until they're gone.

Well, they're dead or they reach out in some way. And what will happen?

Nobody was there.

Here's the thing. Oh, they're silenced because they don't want to talk because there's so much shame. That's part of it. You know what you're not talking about? Why they're not talking? They probably tried to talk about it. They got their ass shut down.

Yep.

And they're not doing it again.

Yep.

They tried one conversation. It might take one conversation. It might take 5. It might take 10. They're not talking about it. And if it's with somebody they don't like and don't need to have a relationship, Relationship over. If they're a kid with their mom, um, everything's fine, Mom.

Yeah, I'm fine.

Whatever the words we use to deflect the conversation, then Mom's like, I have no idea what I— what, what— why he won't open up to me. I have an idea. Sorry, I have a pretty good idea why. I don't know for sure. I'm not saying any of this is easy, but it's necessary. You gotta, you gotta let people talk. Yeah, period. That's the only reason I exist. That's what I do. I just let people talk.

Just like, I've created a space, you get to say it, you get to say it.

I don't livestream. I told you before you hit live, I was like, it's pretty courageous to go livestream. I don't— I had my reasons. One of them is you say anything you want, I send you the recording because you might want to cut something out, but I don't want you to hold back while we're talking. Yeah, well, I think it's pretty— yeah, it's a nice moment. Yeah, but also, so yeah, by the time it gets out, they're okay with everything. But I don't want you to hold back when we're talking. You can cut it later, but let's go in as hard as we can. Yeah, with you, you know. And I go hard, like I'll push back sometimes, and I have rarely had a guest be like, dude. But also, they find me now, so they already know that I'm the sarcastic New Yorker who's not fucking around. Like, they know this, you know. The ones that get scared by that, they don't reach out to be on my podcast.

Right?

So I got a very self-selected group of suicide attempt survivors and ideators who are down with me and my style. And you'd be surprised.

Let's go.

You would be surprised. I mean, it shouldn't be me, Lisa. What do you mean?

It's a sh—

what I mean is, and I wrote a manifesto, by the way, with a lot of help of AI. And one of the lines I love that Claude wrote, but I, I okayed it. It was just something like the fact, the fact to, to the establishment, to the system, to the mental health industry and etc., etc. The fact that a random dude in, at the time, North Carolina was the one to create the space to have open conversations about suicide should be an absolute embarrassment to you. Yeah, I think I got it right, but you're lucky I did.

How many lives have you saved, my friend, just because you let people talk? You don't know, right? You don't know.

No, no, you know, but you know, you know, you know, it's important to say is that my mantra— if that's the right word— sometimes my through line. For example, when I'm editing, do I keep— when I— do I cut it? Do I cut this or not? Because, you know, sometimes a 2-hour conversation, you got to cut some stuff out. My through line is not, I want to help this person stay alive. It's a consequence often of people hearing it, sure, of people talking to me sometimes, sure. No, it's less shitty, less alone. That's what it's about. Now, as a byproduct, people maybe want to live, maybe, but my job isn't to save your life. My job is to create a space so that you and others can feel less shitty and less alone, full stop.

Let's take—

you have agency over your life, Lisa. If you want to take your own life, you're an adult. I assume you, you thought real hard about that for a really long time. There are some exceptions, sure. If you're having a schizoaffective breakdown, if you're a 13-year-old whose girlfriend just— of course it's a little different. But by and large, most adults, you don't go into something like that lightly. You don't wake up one day and just kill yourself. Has it happened in the history of the world? Probably. It's a, it's a, it's a—

John, I think that's what people miss though. I think that's what people miss. People are like, oh my God, it came out of nowhere. It never comes out of nowhere. It never comes out of nowhere. I'm like, I've been trying to tell you guys this for years, you know?

Yeah.

And you're not even getting it.

You're not getting it.

Correct. Right. I, yeah, I agree with you. I've never had a guest that, again, 400 is not 4,000 or 40,000.

That's a big number though, my friend.

It doesn't represent everybody, and I don't pretend it does. Right.

Right?

And I have a select, self-selected group. They gotta like my style. They have to have Wi-Fi. They have to speak English. They have to be okay sharing their story. It limits the number. That's fine.

Right.

I will never be able to talk to the 800,000 people who did die. Over last year. I can only talk to the people that survived the attempt, or think about it, but that's many millions. So I'm talking to a tiny fraction, but nonetheless, 400 is not nothing.

Yeah.

And even the ones that use the word impulsive, I said, tell me how impulsive it was. And when you really start talking about it, it's like, yes, in that moment I just like took it all, veered the car into the tree. But if you listen to the whole conversation, the shit started when they were 12 and now they're 40. Is that impulsive?

Not at all.

You know, we could play with words, but yeah, the, the overarching larger stuff, uh, it builds, man. It builds, it builds. And we're so good at— because I know one of the words I see right behind your right shoulder is performing. And that can sound pejorative in some contexts, but it's, it's a survival for many people.

Yep. What did you perform in order to survive?

That's literally one of the questions you asked, but you're supposed to wait to the end.

But we're gonna wait till the end because I want to know.

Because sometimes I don't even just throw it in the conversation. I had one of the guests yesterday, she was like, I have never performed in my life. I was like, well, that's a great answer. She's like, I've never worn a mask. I said, I wish, I wish I could say that.

Oh man, if I were talking to her, I would have pushed back hard on that shit.

Oh, I needed you to co-host for me.

Come on. I mean, Lisa, Lisa, but Lisa, like, you You were— I mean, we're performing right now to some degree because we're human.

Yes.

So in a maybe different way of using the word, right? But like, we— oh, this isn't the same version of me when I'm out.

That would be in a boardroom, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

Or on a— yeah, I mean, there's some overlap almost always with who we are, how we present, you know, but yeah, we show up.

Yeah.

But, but by performance means inauthentic, no. Yeah, I'm not gonna lie to you. I'm not going to be dishonest. The only things that could possibly be dishonest— some so unaware of stuff about myself that I'm actually telling you what I think is the truth and it's not. But I think at this point I'm, I'm getting decent at knowing myself.

I'm not the best that we have with the awareness that we have, but we don't always have awareness, you know?

Yeah, for sure.

We don't always have awareness, you know?

I mean, I, I One of the things I've gotten aware about is how bad I am at almost everything. Like, because I'm around all of you all— not you necessarily, but all this, like, I'm on—

what am I?

You all know, no, no, no. Like, everybody's so fucking good at everything. All the coaches and all the leaderships and the thought leaders, and I'm there, and they're so good. I'm like, I'm bad at almost everything. I mean, I'm pretty good at having conversations and listening. And I've gotten better at editing, but I'm like, holy shit, I suck at like almost everything.

Listen, man, I'm not a thought leader. I actually just had to change my title for— look, I did corporate education for 30 freaking years, 3 decades. So when I was originally on LinkedIn, I was going to be an executive coach, like, like executive coach. Well, you had a few clients and I was like, your business is fine, but your fucking relationships are a hot mess. That's where I can help you. So I had to change it. And my website guy who used to be one of my coaches a TEDx program. He was like, yeah, that suits you way better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Executive coach. Yeah, I had to change, I had to change my title.

I mean, look, you know what, let's be straight about it.

That's where the money is. And I'll tell you, and this is important. I'll tell you where the money isn't.

Where's the money?

Not, not in my pocket.

Because you're talking about the real shit.

Because if you want to get paid, sometimes people don't want to hear it. Not sometimes, most of the time. If you want— if in specifically in the suicide space, not just mental health, suicide— if you want to get paid to speak, you better be a prevention speaker.

What do you mean by prevention speaker?

I'm going to show you my story of how I tried to end my life, or I'm going to tell you the story about how I almost tried to end my life, or I'm going to tell you a story about someone who close to me ended their lives. Don't do it.

That's not helpful.

That's the spine of most of those talks. They all sound a little different because people look differently and their stories are unique. That is what it is. It might be a little bit around awareness. It is not what I talk about.

What are we missing, Sean? What are we missing in those talks? Tell me.

Like, do you mean in the conversations or in the one-way presentation?

No, in the talks. So say somebody's like, hey Sean, I want to book you for a $3,000 talk on stage to talk about suicide and Suicide Noted and what you have discovered and interviewing the 400 survivors. How would your talk be different than their talk?

It wouldn't be directed at the survivors, it would be directed at everyone around them. Oh, I don't— I, I have had the conversations with the survivors. The, the problem is not them, the problem is everyone around them.

What does everybody around them need to know?

Um, it's— we— it depends on how much time you have and how much, how much, how granular you want to get. Because look, it's hard. I'm not going to pretend that if your sister or your partner or your mother is thinking about suicide, that is easy. I have— what I— I'm objective. I am removed. You are mostly a stranger when we talk. I have a lot of advantages to be able to listen so right and hold the space. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, if it's my best friend, it's a little different. If it's my wife, it's a little different. I'm not married, by the way, ladies out there, but if I had—

I love all ladies.

So I don't pretend that it translates so neatly into very, very emotional, love-charged relationships, but there's some.

I'm glad that you recognize the delineation of when you're close, close, close.

Yeah, harder, much harder, but it doesn't take away—

conversations have to happen.

What? So what's— you asked a question, which is a hard one to answer. What, what, what, what are we missing? I think was what it was.

Well, I, I, and then I, I'm sorry, I asked you two questions back to back. The second one was, how would your talk be different? And you said, you already answered it. You said it would be directed at everybody else.

Correct.

So what does everybody else need to know? Does it circle back to the listening that you opened up with?

I don't like that word, but yeah.

Why don't you like the word listening?

Overused. People don't know how to do it. It doesn't matter what the word is if you don't know how to do it. Like, it doesn't— it's just a word and people put fun, cute little things in front of it.

Like, it's completely active listening.

Yeah. Like, let's call it a radical active. It's like, it's the same shit.

Radical active listening.

It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. How many adjectives do you need to add to it? Like, you're creating this unique concept. You know what most of it is? Here, here, it's, it boils down to a few simple things. But tactically, if you were to teach it, it's hard because it's nuanced and it's personal. And sometimes people— here's the thing, and then I will answer the question— that people don't want to admit, particularly in Western culture where we can do anything we set our minds to. That's a lie. I can't dunk a basketball and I never will be able to. All right? Some people are just better at it than others.

I was in basketball and they— my coach just said, give it to Belinda, who was my fucking bully and the tallest girl in school.

Yeah, okay.

So yeah, I can't dunk a basketball.

I don't know how you got to be better listeners. Some of you just are.

Okay.

That's okay. Let's, as a starting point, we're not all starting at the same place.

Okay.

Fair. Fair.

I don't know if I answered the why I don't like the word. It matters less than what are people getting quote unquote wrong, or let's frame it positively, what they can do better. It's like there's two parts to that because if you're afraid or just uncomfortable with it, I really can't help you with that. I don't know how to get you out of that. What I know are the consequences. If your fear and your discomfort are getting in the way of having open and honest conversations, I can tell you the impact that's probably having on somebody. Now, I'm not a fucking life coach or a therapist or a counselor, and if you're dealing with trauma or your own grief or whatever, and that's the reason you're uncomfortable, I'm not the guy to talk to. I'm just not.

Yeah.

Okay. But if you can sit with the person, the question really might be, and here's my, my My talk, if anyone ever wanted to fucking pay me for it, would be, um, I'll do it for free too, um, not to the people that are in the uncomfortable, fearful, or obviously shaming, critical, because no one wants to talk to you anyway, right? It's for the people who think they're doing well, that are well-intentioned and don't understand why the person's closing up. I'm going to tell you why. Because you, because you're probably talking too much. Which is ironic because I'm ranting right now.

You need to shut up too much.

Wait, you need to— you need to—

suffering.

So your goal— so if we could take what I do on my podcast, and I'm gonna give myself a little pat on the back, okay? One, shut up. You have to stop talking. You have to let the person talk. And included in that are often very long, for some people awkward silences. And there's a reason. It's not performative. It's hard for people to find the words to this stuff. Sometimes it's hard. They're testing that they can actually trust you. Yeah, among other things. Let it sit. I don't care how long. I have never once had somebody say to me Why are you just not talking? What's the— never. Is it— has it happened? Sure. Then I would say, I just wanted to make sure you were done. No problem. Stop talking. Like, if literally there was one takeaway, here's the problem. If it is a rant that someone needs to snotty cry and they— you just need to be quiet, you know, those, and then just give them a hug.

Yeah.

And then, and then, and then just give them a hug. You don't have to say a damn word. The problem is most of the time it's conversation and you have to, meaning the person in support in this case, you have to open your mouth. And when you do that, things tend to go awry and you don't know why.

And they shut down. We shut down.

We sometimes shut down or we change the way we talk.

We do.

We don't necessarily shut down.

We—

perform because, well, they're getting uncomfortable. Well, my, my older brother who I've known my whole life, you love me, I know you care. Um, but you've already, you've already made it clear with the way you're engaging with me I can't be completely open and honest.

Why?

Well, you didn't say that presumably explicitly. But you're leading, for example, off with any number of things that I call conversation closers, or we're not really being honest about it, it's conversation killers. And they're all the things we've all dealt with, and we've often done ourselves. For example, like unsolicited advice. Never needed, ever, ever.

Oh, hate it.

Hey, so I've been really hot. I don't have the list in front of me, but it's just a bunch of shit we all deal with. So you could literally say, if you never did the following things ever, ever, it wouldn't be— you would only be helping this conversation.

Yeah.

You never need to offer some sort of platitude. I mean, if I actually— there's an excep— I have a friend who told me when I'm feeling down, and I'm lucky that she was so vocal about this, when I'm feeling down, I want someone to say it's going to be okay. So when someone's communicating with you, How to communicate with them. Of course, honor that. But if you don't have that information, and often you don't, you can ask, but sometimes you just don't, or they don't know. Oh, I don't know. I just want someone to hear me. Okay.

Yeah.

But like, don't get in the way of the conversation, but people don't understand that. Like, they're not there for your advice unless they ask, then they just give, give your advice. But yeah, or you can ask them, I had this idea. It might help. Do you want to hear it? Yes or no? If they say yes, you give it. If they say no, that's it. Don't.

Boom. That's how every relationship should be, actually.

So I think about it as, as you got to stay quiet more for them to be able to open up. Promise, they probably want to talk more than you think they do. They're probably— we talk about dying to be heard. It's not— it's a cute expression, but there's a lot of truth to it. Um, silence is number one. I can't cultivate curiosity in people, but the way I can do my job well is I am insatiably curious about human beings, especially ones that are suffering. It's not hard for me. People say, isn't it hard for you to sit with people who are in pain or were in pain? I say, no, everything else in my life is hard. This is fucking beautiful. When I leave—

I can do that, Sean.

That's why I'm doing it. That's why I ended up being the guy. I, and it's weird because you wouldn't have thought it, but like, so cool. All right. People say, well, it sounds like, are you getting off on it? I'm like, what do you mean? Am I getting off on it? I'm like, you love hearing people sing?

Do you want somebody to ask you that?

Oh yeah. It's like, it sounds like you like really like hearing people talk about their pain. I'm like, no, I like creating space. And you asked me my why, I think. In so many words. Yeah, I created the space that wasn't there that I needed.

You filled the gap 100%. Yeah.

And guess who feels that? I'm selfish, motherfucker.

I'm selfish.

I'm fucking selfish, man. Yeah, I did it in part for me.

Yeah, but you're in my dream job right now.

Seriously, you could, you could be selfish and selfless. Ironically, they can coexist.

Yeah, I've done this for free and feed people at the same time.

Yeah, I mean, it was a passion project that at some point they tried to monetize in between a membership, and I'm fiscally sponsored so people can give tax-deductible donations. But I've done the math with, with the conversations plus the editing. $3,000 is probably not— is, is lowballing it. I, I worked it out to be like 20 cents an hour I've been working for, for 6 years. I'm fucking broke. I got 20 people I haven't edited yet. And I got 3 more conversations. Yeah, I can't do it all.

Wow.

And, and, and I'm— the need is going to outlive me. I have to find somebody who will eventually replace me. I'm— no one's, no one's stepping up.

So I don't want your job, man.

One more thing, because we— how people talk is like, I could talk about that for a long time. Just wanted to add it. One more thing. There are things you're doing that are probably— and I don't mean body language. Sure, all that matters, but just the basics, like talk less, be curious, which I don't know if you can actually do if you're not curious. I, uh, Celeste Headlee had that great quote I saw on one of her talks, and she says you don't have to act like you're or look like you're paying attention if you're actually paying attention.

Fair.

But I don't know if we can get people to do that if they don't actually want to know. Some people don't want to know that their brother wants to kill himself.

Some people don't want to know. It sounds like a song, but my husband's a musician. I'm gonna tell him that title.

No, listen, I mean, so that's the thing. If you don't want to know, maybe you're not the right person they should be talking to.

Well, maybe. And stop. Yeah, because you're gonna make it worse.

Probably. Yeah, because what's going to happen is they're either going to walk away, they're going to fake it for a while, they're not going to come back to you probably to ever talk about it. No, not really. But again, if this is somebody in your life, you, you got to say something that you're a total asshole, you're not going to ignore them. So when it comes up, you're going to just say whatever it is to get out of the conversation. That's like 98% of what conversations are. They're not even conversations.

Yeah, they don't happen.

They don't happen, man. That's right. Even if Silence. Don't kill the conversations. We can't get into all the conversation killers, but quick fixing is one of them. Pontificating is another. Platitudes is another. And denying is— and I mean, it's, um, I will send you my list. You can share it with people if you want.

Please do. Please.

None of them are not— cheerleading is one of them, in my opinion.

Go, go, go!

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All of this.

So you got this. Yeah.

Are there moments when that might be the right— okay, here and there, but the core of it, that your defaults is what I say. Don't default to them.

Mm-hmm.

Your default should be mostly just to be quiet. They don't work. It's all bullshit. They do not work. Oh, but in this— okay. There's always an exception in a— but let's break down why it was okay then. Maybe. Don't use that as your default. Your default should be shut up. Be curious. You can ask why. That's a whole myth.

Love the word why.

Stop with this, you can't ask why. You can do whatever you want. You'll get the message if it's okay or not pretty quickly.

But see, why requires curiosity. And can you teach curiosity? Oh wait, you cut out. You cut out, guys.

Hang on.

Sean sometimes has problems with the sound, so he's going to fix it for us. But yeah, guys, while he's fixing his sound. We love asking better questions in here. Why is a great freaking question. Not what's wrong with you, but why do you feel this way? Why do you want to do that? Why is a great question. I still can't hear you. Oh, you're coming back now. You're on. Oh no. Now you're still muted. All right, I'm just gonna talk, guys. Okay, all right, so I think we need to find a stage for Sean is what I'm thinking. Yeah, because we started Notes from the Edge— I think you're back, Sean— we started Notes from the Edge to have these real conversations, and I think other than Harold, who is the CEO of the World Mental Health Forum, who lost 4 people to suicide. Um, his, his mother, his daughter, his brother, someone else. And, uh, he quit his job in entertainment industry to start the World Mental Health Forum. His name is Harold Asman. He's an amazing dude. You're good now? Yeah, yeah. Um, but he talked real about, uh, suicide. But yeah, he said, this hasn't happened in my life by accident, and I can't continue to work in the entertainment industry now that I know what I know.

And he honors, uh, survivors, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But part of, for me too, is I'm balancing that. I am— I lean pretty heavily towards agency and autonomy, And so that's a tough one to balance, right? Like in the prevention— Tell me, because we live in a world where we have to save everybody's life at all costs. Zero prevention, prevention, prevention, prevention. That's the dominant narrative. The AFSP and the other large organizations, it's what they tout. That's all you see on Facebook and Twitter and everywhere.

Yeah, but your philosophy is it's our own damn life and we get to do with it what we want. Right.

Yeah.

And some people will push back in these scenarios. Where do you really— and I say, one of my questions is, yeah, I want to— if, if I were able to talk to you from the grave and a year later you regret your decision, I don't want you to kill yourself. No, I just— I don't think people understand that how much people are struggling and that they very rarely come to this decision lightly.

No.

And if you haven't— when, when somebody tells me Well, so I, you know, one of the questions I always ask is, what are these myths or misconceptions about it in your experience? And top, the number one answer is it's not selfish. Now, of course, I'm asking the attempt survivor. I remember saying, I wonder if I asked the loss survivors if they would feel differently. I had some guy reach out and said, I'm a loss survivor. I lost my partner. I'm in a community of loss survivors and we don't think it's selfish. I was like, I'm going to, can I read this on the air? Because I check. Check, right? So some do, some feel that way. Um, I had people literally use that word when they heard about my friend's death, you know. So, um, one of the things I found that's fascinating is what most— I won't say all ever— people who are contemplating suicide do more than anything else, way more than their plan, is think about everybody in their life for years sometimes. That's all.

What do you mean, they think about other focused?

They are, they are trying to balance how can I stay in this world for my— the people that love me, versus my— I'm in so much fucking pain.

Yeah.

So when I hear that somebody tried to end their lives, what I hear isn't selfish. Typically, it's never for me, but it is— that's how much pain they were in, that they were— that they, that they have 3 daughters they love, love more than anything. They're not stupid. They know the impact. Yeah, that's how much pain. You cannot rec— you don't know the pain somebody's going through. What if the pain they were going through was akin to someone like the moment you break your arm, and it's the kind of pain that like if you don't get morphine within 10 minutes, you're gonna flip. Like, what if you don't know that? Maybe that's actually what they're feeling. Probably not, but like, you just don't know. We're real quick to make assumptions and think we know and label, and you don't. And the only way to know, unless you read minds— and tell me, give me a call if you—

you can't read minds, folks.

The only way—

you can't make assumptions either.

If you're a mind reader, this doesn't apply to you.

You can stop listening.

The way—

the way you have some mad spiritual gifts, my friend.

Yeah, the way to do it, I'm telling you, The only way I found to do it is to let people tell you about it and not get in the way. Yeah, that's a lot of it. And yeah, then sometimes you gotta— you're engaged in a conversation, and that's, that's, that's a, you know, these little, uh, you, you, you can listen to all the acronyms you want, that's not going to help you too much about how to have a good conversation. The QPR and the ASSIST and these others and prevent That's a starting point.

Dude, I did all the acronyms, all the acronyms in the world, all the acronyms, and I was still waking up going, I don't want to be here.

And I— why do I break— why, why, why do people still talk to me? I'm breaking all of them. Not intentionally, I just think some of them are dumb and they're made by people who, who are either don't know any better or maybe just like I got a pretty high paying— I mean, the CEO of the AFSP makes over $600,000 a year. That's cool. You should be paid. That is not in line with what other nonprofits that have been around for 39 years pay their CEOs that have the record they have, which is really mostly not measurable and in many ways abhorrent.

You can't measure this.

A lot of it's not measurable so that it—

because you don't know.

So, so that what do they measure is how many people showed up to the walkathon. You can measure that. Okay, but the suicide rate's gone up, and I'm not blaming them that the suicide rate's gone up, because maybe if they weren't around, it'd be double.

Yeah. Okay, so yeah, I'm going to tell you something right now. I've got a big talk coming up in December, and the title of the talk is— check this out, uh, so I, I am menopausal, and what I was not prepared for, well, with my blood disease, I can't take treatment, none. Because it causes clots, and I have a clot— a congenital clotting disorder.

So my fucking doctor, my male doctor, gives me Subvalium, and he's like, wing it. I was like, are you kidding me? That's it? That's it? I just killed my husband's plants and made him cry, and you're telling me to wing it? I did. I was just like, ah, in a menopausal rage.

What I did not realize is suicidal ideation is highly compatible with menopause.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The highest suicide rate for women across the globe is, guess what age? 50s.

Ah, no, it's actually— it's— I think you're going to be wrong. It's over 80.

Is it over 80? I thought it was— I thought it was 45 to 65.

So you know what? Okay, guess what? Guess what? They're both— they're both high.

I mean, they're high everywhere. Everybody.

But, but We know 75 and older, and that, and that comes with some differences. Is that you're getting to the end of life? There's a lot of reasons why at 75, 80, 85, there's a higher percentage that don't pertain to people a little younger. But middle-aged women, perimenopausal, menopausal, the chemical changes, amongst other things.

It's the biggest neurobiological change women go through in their entire fucking lives, and nobody's talking about it.

So few people.

Nobody's talking about it, right? So I— the, the— it's a, it's a small business expo, so I have to do work. So the title of the talk is, is menopause and depression affecting your work? But I'm going to introduce that a study in 2025— dude, they're just now studying menopause in 2025, right?

Just starting, just starting.

And now they have linked suicidal ideation to menopause. And suicide. But again, we don't know because people are gone.

So that's the only way I— so it made sense to me that if I can't talk to dead people, I'll talk to the ones that tried. And then somebody a couple years in said, you— what about the people who are thinking about it? That's actually a larger group. Are you curious about them? And I was like, I really am curious about them. I wonder if the attempt survivors are going to have a problem with this. You didn't try. You're not, you're not part of the club, man. You didn't actually try to off yourself. One person emailed that. I was like, I'll make the decisions, but thanks for your feedback. Um, you do, you do, you do 2 years of work at the time and, and all the exhausted research, and then I'll take your thoughts into consideration. But thank you for your email.

Um, did you reply?

Did you? Yeah, I was, I was nicer than that. I'm being a little dramatic here. I'm making myself look like a bad guy, and I'm not a bad guy.

You're a good guy, man.

Um, I'm like, uh, doing this work. Well, I'm like, I want to be tough guy, but at the end of the day— but the thing is this, you don't have to talk to— if I, if I said to you, Lisa, you know, there's this podcast where this person talks to suicide attempt survivors, and it's really open and it's really honest. You don't know anything about them or the podcast other than what I shared. Describe this person. I guarantee you most people are like older woman, maybe a former counselor or therapist or nurse, really soft-spoken. Hmm, guess what?

And then I see you, you're like, what's up?

Who the fuck is this guy? But it works. I'm not gonna be the guy that said, well, if I can do it, you can do it, because I've got some skills, I'll tell you.

Not—

no, listen, not everybody can sit with people in pain. That is true. Emotional suffering.

That is true. And then add it to— add to that, engage. Have a 2 or 3 or 4 hour conversation.

Wow. You just let them go?

I direct and let them go. I'm facilitating too. I'll do that in part because they need structure sometimes, because they're— it's— go tell you a life story, good luck. It's hard. The questions matter. Me summarizing for the audience and them matters. The things I do matter. There's a narrative framework, but yeah, I wanna talk about that narrative.

So Narrative Coach, talk to me about that. Well, talk to me about that.

Let me just be really honest about one thing.

Okay.

I have a branding issue. Okay.

Okay.

If I stay in suicide, unless I get a grant, then I've tried, I don't make money. I've tried just about everything, and I, I want to dedicate much more time. So how do I make money? So in the last couple years, you know, I did, and I— it was something, but it wasn't enough. Because you got to remember one thing on social media platforms, they don't share my stuff. They don't make it easy for the world to find.

Oh God, I didn't even think about that. No, they won't.

Oh, I mean, shut you down. A lot of stuff gets shut down. Yeah, but here's another thing people don't think about. You see my— let's get Sean's name out there. You know what right now that means? More work for Sean and less paid work because the podcast doesn't pay, right? So I'm in a real interesting backed-up corner. I want to talk to as many people— I want to talk to as many people as I can, but unless I can like outsource the editing, I'm just one guy. There's only so much I can do. And then it'll end up being that we talked today and your episode isn't out for 10 months.

No, that's good. Today or tomorrow, by the way, it's just saying.

Yeah, wink wink.

So, um, so you're gonna be out, you're gonna be out tonight.

Oh, I've tried, I've tried all kinds. So, so back in the day, I was a personal narrative story coach. That was like predating. I had a company or an organization called True Stories That Matter, but that was personal story, beginning, middle, end. Like if you know anything about The Moth, that kind of story. What I'm doing with these people is different. There's a narrative framework, but it's not a I'm just going to talk for 7 minutes about my life. It's right, 2 hours, and then I narrow it down to an hour. But there's—

that's a lot of editing work.

Yeah, Sean, I mean, but you know what, you know, you know, it's really interesting when you, when you edit and you edit and you edit is you hear yourself and the conversations again and again And again, and you can let you— one, I can get better at what I do, but then you hear it over and over and you're like, okay. And I don't know if there are clear patterns that have emerged. I mean, there are some patterns that emerge and some similarities, at least with my guests, but I am obsessed with conversation. I mean, I just think the mechanics of it are fascinating to me. The way even, like, sorry, I'm even like evaluating you because I can't not.

Oh, I can tell.

I'm like, and I— and people will be like, oh, you shouldn't cut people off ever. That's just not how the real world works. But so I do it, but I own it, right? So I'll cut—

oh yeah, you'd say it. Lisa, sorry. My mom was like, I'm gonna be a bitch and you don't like it, or you could not like it. Look, I'm like, I'm hanging up now.

I, I don't know if this will make sense to most people listening if they don't know a little bit about audio. I edit on one track, not two. And the only reason that matters is if I talk over you and then I edit, you're gonna hear that. So I either cut it or leave it. It doesn't matter the details, but if you edit on two tracks, you can cut one person out, but it's much more time consuming. I edit on one track, which makes me think you're gonna have to edit this. So, so don't talk over them, which is good anyway. Right, right. But the point is I fuck up a lot and you know what I do? I say, Lisa, I should have talked. You're in the middle of telling me the story about your first attempt and I just cut you off. I'm an asshole. My bad. Would you please, can you go on? I'm sorry. And they're always like, sure, because we're in the middle of a conversation. It's not an interview. Question, answer, bop. But now if I did that every minute, it's a problem. I don't do it much, but I own it.

And that's a good thing for people to do.

Yeah.

You're not going to be perfect. That idea is not even a real idea. It's a concept that doesn't exist. It's ridiculous unless we're talking about something measurable, which this is not.

It is not.

Own your shit, man. You talk—

if you're—

I think that—

oh man, you could save lives if you own your shit. I'm telling you, I promise you. If you're listening, and I'm just—

and I'm not— and I'm not— I mean, I'm not talking broadly about everything. I'm even just talking within a conversation because that's what I talk about. So I'm not saying own your— sorry I cheated— or I'm not— I'm not giving you marital advice about owning your shit. What I'm saying is, um, by the way, cheating isn't usually good for relationships, but I'm single, so what the fuck can I— by the way, ladies, I'm single. Um, but I'm in Mexico, so good luck finding me.

Are you in Mexico? I didn't know you were in Mexico.

So But like, if I'm in the middle of a conversation, guys, because if somebody's talking to me about going through something hard— and by the way, not all the conversations I have are only about their suicide. I'm just talking— we'll just talk about their life. Yeah, it's just suicide's the best starting point ever because you can talk about anything once you go there.

Yeah, everything is open, everything's cake.

Yeah, and 3 hours later we're tired and I go back to the world. Wow. I like I— but, but you have to understand, I'm in my lane. I'm good at it. I like it. I'm doing— I'm helping people, I think. And then I hang up and I go back to the world that I don't like. So is it hard for me? No. Other, other things are hard for me.

But this is your jam.

This isn't hard for me. Living is hard for me. I'm a passive suicide ideator. I've been thinking about taking my life on and off for 20 years. I understand some of what you're saying. I never presume to understand anybody else's life experience, right? So I want to be careful with that word, but I know what fucking pain is. I know what feeling unheard is. I know what feeling marginalized is. Yes, even as a middle-class, able-bodied, heterosexual, male, privileged motherfucker, I've been in some pain. And we can—

living with that.

We can allow for white guys to be in pain too.

Yes, living is hard. I don't want to gloss over that. You said that this fucking life is hard, and if you throw anything at us— mental illness, yeah, psychiatric, so—

and then you do what you do to cope, right? Why does Sean— here he goes again, third person, I know you noticed that— I drink almost every night, not to excess, but it's none of your goddamn business anyway. Uh, you know why?

Why do you want to drink, man? No, no, no, I just can't because I end up in prison.

Just let's just talk about— And because, and I'll share this openly, anything you want I'll share. Because, and you know why it's not, it's not just verbal diarrhea? Because a lot of people out there are going through this and a lot of them won't talk. So maybe they hear this. I'm not saving shit for anybody. But if somebody tells me— I've heard it, I've been on the other end. I'm like, goddamn, I feel that way. I'm a middle-aged, single, broke guy who's busting his ass. That's a tough spot to be in, who probably has some undiagnosed shit for sure. But the cognitive ability to run a podcast for 6 years, you know, so we're balancing it out.

I got some sleep and editing, teaching yourself how to do it.

I got the relationship issues and I got all the shit. So people cope. Why would you drink if That much to cope because life is hard. That's why. But you realize the damage it's doing? Yeah, you think I'm fucking stupid? Of course I know the damage it's doing.

I can tell people that in my life because, I mean, you have your blood disease. I'm like, everybody fuck off. I'm living with it. I'm the one living with it.

Do you realize that smoking is likely to end your— yeah, I'm not— I'm on— I'm in the world I'm aware. Obviously what you're unaware of is what it's doing for me.

Well, Sean, listen, you'll love this. Listen, listen, listen. So my husband and I are celebrating 8 years of recovery together because we avoid prison that way.

Seriously.

And I mean literally, because I'm a convicted felon.

Long story there.

But, uh, yeah, 8 years ago. But he is 16 years younger than me. Okay, now I didn't know how old he was when I met him because he grade early. Grade curly. He had a full beard. Wait, and when he told me his age, I was like, oh hell, we were already— we were already chatting, and I was like, I gotta run.

But listen, cougar— I'm not a cougar because apparently you are, Lisa.

A still small voice said lean in.

Okay. And his, his hand was on the back of the couch, and his still small voice said lean in. So I touched his hand and it was fucking electricity, and it's just been But I will tell you this, yeah, he is 16 years younger and, and I am 50 years old and I run businesses and I've raised a kid and I've survived the suicide illness and psychiatric institutionalization and jail. And yeah, sometimes I have to pull the authority, you know.

Hold up, like, one, one, you know, you can always be a guest on my podcast.

You're eligible.

Well, you're obviously eligible, right? You've tried to kill yourself.

Yes, well, the first time when I was 15. Yeah, but it was handled very strategically. I'll come tell you.

It will be easier because I'll— because then it'll become the Suicide Nota podcast right now, and you don't want that.

Oh, don't do it.

Don't, don't start.

Look, we're at 50 minutes.

45. Give me one more, give me one more, and then I have one final question.

You got the floor.

I wanted to just complete something, a loop that wasn't closed. Okay, talked about branding.

Yeah, what's going on there?

This isn't me complaining about anything. The world is the world. I made my choices. I've earned my place in the suicide world with 6 years. I can get on a stage and in 3 months be making 10 grand a speech. I choose not to because that's not the message I choose, and others are already doing it. Okay, so there are other things that I do. So, you know, I— you did a little homework. I have had I'm not selling shit. I have something called the Missing Record and the Final Record, and they're both essentially the same thing, but one's just a higher-end, longer process. And they're simply this: there are people that are having conversations or not having the conversations they want to have, and it's a way to have a conversation sort of with me so that you can share that information with people that you want to have this, that you want to, um, communicate with, like your mom who you haven't talked to in 10 years. Who's 80 years old, who, by the way, that's my story, uh, you're never going to be able to have a live conversation. And if you try to do it yourself, like audio message, the email, it's hard.

So the service— and this is a relatively new service, both of these— okay, well, one's called the Missing Record and one's called the Final Record. Actually, the link that you shared on your, uh, LinkedIn post, shaungwellington.com, is actually going to the one that's the more expensive one. And that's for like, like We get, you do, you have like a 6-hour marathon with me and I cut it to like 90 minutes. That's like legacy stuff. That's like legacy stuff.

Love it.

But I think the thing that's gonna be more common and it's much more reasonably priced, I think they're both priced fairly, but not for everybody. And I also do a pay it forward type of thing, but nonetheless is like the thing where you're not gonna have that conversation, you're not gonna write the letter and you're gonna die. So if you want it to be unsaid. I'm not a conversation coach where I'm getting in there with you and your mom. No, no, no, no, that's not my shit.

You're not a mediator, correct?

Yeah, I'm a guy who can bring the story out of you. You've got some of it, you don't have all of it because this stuff emerges when someone listens well. So maybe no one's ever even done that for you. And then we have an honest conversation, and then you can include to use my voice in it or not and talk directly to your mother or not. Like, there's different ways you could structure it. But that's a new thing for me because for the past few years, I'm trying to figure out a way to use the skills I have to make enough money to expand the work that doesn't pay.

Yeah. Well, I need both those links. I need both those links and we're gonna, we're gonna talk cuz I've got some ideas for you actually. Yeah.

If this is the final word, can I ask you a question?

Uh, yes, you may. What do you got?

It's gonna be asked to you on my podcast. As well. Here it is.

What is it?

You're 50 years old, you've tried to kill yourself.

Yes.

You have a life-threatening disease.

Yes.

I have a pink and purple pill. If I give you the pill and you take it, you go to sleep, you don't wake up, there is no pain, and nobody knows it's a suicide. What do you do with it?

I hold on to it.

Why?

Just in case.

Thanks for answering. Appreciate that. That's honest. That's what honesty looks like.

Yeah, that's what we do in here, man.

I mean, I, I like it. I like it. I like your style. I like your program. I fucking am so jealous. You have no idea.

I'm pissed. No, because listen, I get on here and I'm like, hey, Sean, we're going live on everything.

No, because my friend, my friend, fucking friend tells me— I'm like, because I was, you know, because I listened to a little bit of your podcast before we talk. But I get on there, I see— oh, I'm like she's got like all these thousands of reviews. I'm like, fuck this bitch. Like, I've been at this shit for 6 years. I mean, I got some really good reviews and some really nice ratings, right? But like, who the fuck are you after 6 weeks? What? Like, you haven't paid your due— now you've paid your dues in other ways.

I know I did, man. Yeah, yeah, listen, I had a friend that had to tell me that 'Cause I told my mom and my mom's like, I don't even understand what you do. So this morning I was crying to one of my friends and I was like, she sucks. She doesn't understand how good this is and what I've actually done in 6 weeks. She's like, Lisa, it took decades for you to get here.

I was like, 100%. Let me, let me, let me squeeze this in real quick.

All right. What you got?

Cause you do have a big audience.

Yeah.

I am not a $10,000 keynote speaker, but I am a paid speaker. And it is— I have two, two very similar presentations. One's called The Silence Paradox and one's called Less Shitty, Less Alone. Um, and they are aimed at people around— not just people who want to kill themselves, people in pain, which is everybody because you're alive.

Yeah.

And it is a different type of talk than you're used to, and you will walk away with nothing else— not every tactic and trick in the toolbox, because no one's doing that in an hour from the stage. You will leave with a different kind of awareness so you can maybe get started in that direction.

Perspective.

And I don't fuck around. So if you don't like the real truth, I'm not the guy. But if you want to actually see if maybe what you're doing is getting in the way, which is the best starting point, and you have people— and you know, you got to be somebody who can afford it. Like, I, I'm flexible. I'm not this guy who's trying to make a gazillion dollars, but Working for food.

Yeah, yeah.

What I've said in my style and my exceptional good looks are something you want to talk— I, I— then we can talk and maybe I could get on one of your stages, whether it's virtual or in real life. But I'm in Mexico, so it's probably virtual. Full stop. I'm done. And scene.

I don't know, can you travel?

Like, yeah, but you got to pay me for that.

Okay, well, we'll talk.

We'll talk.

The thing is, I can't—

I'm not medically released to travel right now because of my— I can't take long drives because it causes clots. I can't fly, certainly, because the altitude change causes clots. So the talk in January or December is in Atlanta, which is only an hour from us. Yeah, so I can drive there. So I can— but I've got some ideas for you, so we're going to talk. So my job would be to ask you questions. Okay, my turn, because we're at 57 minutes and I keep it tight at an hour. I don't, I don't let you roll for 4 hours. All right, in your life performance. What have you performed in order to survive? And did you— and if you did drop that role mask or performance, what did it do for you?

I think I've— I don't know how to answer the question. I think when you're asking that, it's a mask type of performance, right?

Maybe.

I think mostly I am like one of your other listeners where like, I kind of mostly rolled through life not being unfiltered. Unfiltered but still performing.

What do you mean, right?

Well, I, I'm pretty open and I'm pretty honest. I don't fuck around. I'm pretty straightforward. I speak French clearly, fluently. Um, that's cool. But no, I just mean I say fuck a lot. But that's just, that's just like, that's just the New York thing. The French is irrelevant.

Like, it's this Louisiana swamp thing. Me too, man. Don't—

oh, okay, let's go. Yeah, I think, I think I don't have— help me answer that question because I don't know how to answer a question in which it's like, how did I perform? Because I think you might not agree with me, but I respect the fact that you're probably okay with that, is I think we're always— even when we're— the mask is totally off, it ain't totally off.

You can't be 100—

you can't be 100% exposed all the time.

There's always a place where you're gonna have to perform. I will agree with that. Yeah, work, you got to perform, right?

Right. Well, not in my case, but yeah.

Well, yeah, yeah, because you've got your dream job. You just— we gotta get—

no, I have my dream volunteer work. It's not a job.

No, it's— we go, we go, we go.

So, so, yeah, we, we have versions of ourselves that show up appropriately in a work setting.

Appropriately, right, right, right. Yeah, but like, so you don't get fired.

Yeah, right. But I, I try to be open about my stuff that I've gone through, in part for me, in part for others. But I haven't talked— I wouldn't tell you everything. Oh, some of it may be just like, why would you tell her that? It makes no sense. But like, the thing— there's, there's shit about my life I actually brought up here. I guarantee you it is easier for a man to tell he wanted— he was thinking about killing himself— and to say he's fucking broken in debt. I guarantee you it's easier for a man to say he wanted to kill himself than say he can't have an erection. You want to get real? Now, I can have an erection, for what it's worth, ladies. Just so you know, I'm just— I'm just saying, like, we think suicide's the thing, the most taboo thing. There's actually other stuff that we're even less inclined to talk about. I'm— I'm north of there. Yeah, I'm north of 50, baby, and I have no savings. I have no IR, whatever the hell it is. I have no fucking plan. I gotta get this shit done because this guy's not probably— I'm not stupid either.

No, you're actually a very intelligent human.

I know where— I know where this is going. I know where this is going. So it motivates me to move more and work more. Um, but this probably doesn't get it done end well. I don't know. I mean, I don't mean suicide. I just mean like it could be the 68-year-old guy with no family or friend. Like, what happens to that guy? We don't have a place for those people.

He gets a lot of cats. I don't know where. Well, he finds out because I have a chance to be an Italian Greyhound lady.

No, man, I'm telling you, I don't know if there's a site called sugarmama.com, but if there is, ladies—

oh my God, oh my God, that's like that.

I'm telling you, I am I'm telling you the most likely outcome for me in the next 10 years is it's going to be an older rich woman who wants someone who listens well and doesn't have a high, uh, interest in sex. That I'm telling you the outside, like it's not about sex. It's about like, can you just being her, being company? And I'm super rich and my husband died 10 years ago.

And I'm a millionaire.

I like your, I like, I'm going to be like, that's like me being like kind of like a cabana boy. Like an old kabaddi boy.

God, listen, last question, and I know what it's going to be. Well, actually, I don't know. I don't know with you, actually. All right, what do you wish we were conversing more about?

What conversations do we need to keep having or having more of?

What do you think it was going to be?

Well, I figured it would be about suicide, suicidal ideation, but it sounds like you've got some other things that we could be talking about too.

I think we need to be talking about how we talk.

Damn, that's good.

Let's go, Meta.

That's good.

I think we need to be talking about how we talk, and under that umbrella are all these words that some of them I like and some of that I don't, you know. Sometimes, like I said, I don't like the word listening. The word listening is fine, but just how do we engage? How do we talk? How do we do it?

That's where you come in, because you can help people with that.

Yeah, I could help that if they want help and they're willing to, and they're willing to change a little bit.

Yeah. Um, oh, you got to work with people that want to change, man. It's really difficult to pull people. You can't pull them.

It's hard though, because I wish I sometimes wish I could just be a fly on the wall and hear their conversations and be like, come here. I don't always have that luxury, so it's actually hard of you, for example, Lisa, like me and this hot young guy I'm married to We are always fighting, actually.

Like, he looks like a young Gerard Butler, just saying.

He hates that.

Just saying. Like, oh, we're fighting. It's like, it's all right, I can give you some thoughts. And it's actually like, I want to be in the rooms and I can't. It's hard. And if I'm in the room and you're— then you're performing for me.

Yeah.

So to get—

because then I know you're like, somebody else is there, right?

So you're not gonna be real.

I'll be real with my spouse in a way that I'm not gonna be real One of the things I wanna do when I do a, when I, when I, when someone, I, if I could actually get on a stage and I've been on a few stages and that was more for like my storytelling world is I wanna be able to play some stuff from the podcast with my guest permission, of course, and say, here's what I did well, here's what I did bad. Or, or, or they're talking, what would you say here? Like, I wanted to get it as real, as close to the moment as we possibly can because one-way presentations are like really removed from that. Yes, you can talk about things and yes, you can make people aware and then they leave and go back to their lives.

And unless you have a follow-up to them though. Yeah.

Well, yeah. I mean, it's literally is designed unless we form a circle and it's in the round and I invite people on stage, like an immersive experience. Sure. We can do, I mean, I used to do stuff in theater that was this immersive type of thing where I was in it talking to people and I loved it.

You know, that's what I went to school for was performance and storytelling.

Is that right?

Full scholarship. Yeah.

You're talking to an award-winning storyteller, by the way. Every goddamn major—

Georgia for like a year.

You're what?

On the circuit, storytelling circuit.

Like, oh, you were doing like folklore and fiction?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was doing, I was doing personal narrative, which is the Redheaded Stepchild. But nonetheless, your way—

you're harder. My grandma's story was real hard. She, she got murdered in a DV situation. They didn't like that story.

That, and my, my organization, which kind of started also during the pandemic— 2020 was a great year for me, actually. And actually, there's a lot of people I talked to who were on my podcast, they thrived in 2020. Isn't that crazy? People automatically assume that it would be the worst thing. There was more isolation. I think there was a peak in suicide, suicide attempts, even though those are very hard to measure. But from some of my guests, they were like, the world slowed down.

Quieted. We loved it.

I, I created everything in 2020.

It took us forever to come back out because he's hot.

I'm in menopause.

How hard is it to say house up with a really hot guy?

He didn't really— look, his biggest fear is people dying on him, and he married a chick with like a congenital blood disorder. Institution.

I know.

God love him. He's a—

you gotta—

he's a good one. He's a good one.

Yeah, he's one of the good ones.

So Lisa in Georgia might be, uh, I'll let her reach out to me, a podcast guest of mine in the upcoming whenever.

I'm down. I'm down for it. All right, friend, listen, we got to wrap this up. Friends out there, remember, we always close out and ask you the same question: what are you performing in order to survive? And what might dropping that mask, role, or performance do? For you. I'm Lisa. This is Shawn, our new friend. When you find the answer, welcome to the edge. We'll see you next time. Thank you, Shawn.

Thank you.