Transcript of How do you break free without labels? Faith, Neuroscience & Recovery with Rose Ann Forte

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Welcome to Notes from the Edge, where we have the conversations we should have been having all along. We talk about the things that we're not talking about. I'm your host, Lisa Lacey, writer, trauma educator, executive advisor, and author of the upcoming memoir Notes from a Certified Madwoman. Welcome to the Edge. And this is the place where we have the conversations we should have been having all along. Guess what? You ain't talking about it, so we're gonna today with my guest Roseanne Forte. Roseanne Forte is an international bestselling author, addiction and behavioral habits— important word— specialist, and creator of Choose Freedom Program. For years, Roseanne looked successful from the outside. We talk about that so much in here, you guys. Corporate executive, leader in the church, wife, mother— somebody who knew how to perform competence while privately disappearing inside a toxic relationship, alcohol use, a lot of shame, and the exhausting need to make everyone else happy. When traditional recovery language did not resonate with her, Roseanne began exploring a different path, one that combined neuroscience, behavioral change, and her Christian faith. What she discovered was not simply a way to stop drinking. It was a way to understand brain changes, how shame was keeping her stuck, and how to transform without reducing somebody to a label.

We talk about labels a lot in here too. So today, Roseanne's going to talk to us about addiction, faith, neural pathways, toxic relationships, identity, And what it means— I love this— to stop performing goodness, ladies, while quietly suffering and disappearing underneath it. Roseanne Forte, welcome to Notes from the Edge. How are you today, my friend?

I am wonderful, and I'm super excited to talk to you about all of these things that you mentioned.

Oh, I can't wait, I can't wait. Well, look, we're just going to— we're going to dive right in. So You did not connect— because it's Notes from the Edge, so we go straight in— um, you did not connect with the labels that were used in some traditional 12-step recovery programs. What felt limiting in that language to you?

Yeah, especially because I had been a Christian for decades, and I understood that we all fall short. Like, I, I knew this intellectually. We all fall short of the glory of God. Like, Why, when I fall short, do I get a label, right? And I don't think I'm alone here either. I've read a lot of books on recovery, and even those that have or are massive supporters of the traditional, you know, steps and labeling, and I understand there's a purpose and a place for that, But if I read those books, several chapters are about the fact that they couldn't come to terms with a label. And we'll just go there— alcoholic, right?

Yeah.

And so I, I'm not alone. A lot of people are not alone. It's not until you hit what I call the brick wall that you go, okay, maybe I need some help here. And, and these people are here with welcoming, loving, open arms. So they have saved millions of people, but I, I want to speak to the millions of people before they hit the brick wall.

Yeah, we want to catch people before the collapse.

You know, uh, because I do think the shame and the hiding and the fear of being committed to a lifetime of meetings, a lifetime of an identity that is found in labeling, it's, it's not attractive.

No.

It wasn't attractive to me. I understand why it works once people are inside. I don't know if you understand, you know this statistic, but just alcohol— like, I do alcohol substances and behaviors, thoughts, emotions— but just in alcohol, do you know that less Less than 8% of the people diagnosed with alcohol use disorder reach out for help. Less than 8%. How successful do you think we are at solving the problem with the less than 8%? Let's give it a good— a best-case scenario. I've never really heard anybody say beyond 50%. So we're helping 4 out of 100 people with that problem.

Yeah, well, even if you look at some recovery programs that are the gold standard that you would go through that you hear about, even their own statistics say 28% achieve long-term sobriety. Third-party studies indicate 5% achieve long-term sobriety. So it's working for some people, but absolutely to your point, how do we talk to and speak to the people that it's not working for once they realize what— and the problem is, and Roseanne, you and I were having a podcast before the podcast, and maybe you can speak to this right now. The problem is when so many people, because that's the gold standard, do this, work it, and it'll work. And if it doesn't work, we think we're a personal failure.

Right. Yeah. And that's where the shame comes in too. And I feel like I struggled for a decade, oh, trying to hide it, you know, in several forms. And alcoholism gets worse as time goes on, um, and so you're just trying to manage it, hide it. Yeah, I mean, only on weekends, only after 5, only with friends. Yeah, only on holidays. Yeah, uh, and there's a lot of what I call mental gymnastics going on for a long A long time. And I just— I wish— I am so glad that we're talking about this because I wish I had been aware of alternative methodologies. I didn't tell my counselor, I didn't tell my therapist, I didn't tell my pastor.

I was a—

I was a leader in the church. Talk about shame. I understood the word of God and the Bible, but There's, you know, I'm not supposed to have these problems. And, um, it was really, uh, when you talk about hiding, I— the mantra I used to have in my head was, you know, let's just say I'm in any circumstance and we're having fun and we're smiling, and, and in the back of my head it would be, yeah, but if you really knew me. That's a lot of shame, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think, I think for me, there was some of that too. Like, you would be disappointed, you wouldn't like me. Yeah, I got it. I got it. Well, um, so you didn't connect with those labels, and you struggled for over a decade. So how many people— what, what work brings together Christian faith and neuroscience? First of all, let's talk about the word habit. I love this word. In addition to neuroscience, let's kind of go down a brain science, neuroscience, habits rabbit hole because I know you know a lot about it.

Yeah, and this is what blew my mind. Let me just give you a backstory to how, you know, I came to healing. I went, um, like a good Christian, I went outside the church, you know, and what I loved was, um, there was a program and it said, why are you drinking attractively packaged poison? And I loved that perspective because it took the focus off of me and onto a deception I was believing. And so I entered that coaching program. The thing I also loved was, let's put it aside for 90 days and see what shifts. And at the time, there was no way I could comprehend quitting forever. And that is, that is what keeps us stuck. Like, I have to do this forever. And they're like, no, let's just do it for 90 days and see what happens. Well, I was so transformed in 90 days, I couldn't believe it. My confidence was back, my weight was down, my blood pressure, my resting heart rate, uh, friends, connections, everything. And I was so into this, I was like, this is kind of a secret sauce. I want to work with you. How can you— how can I get involved and help other people?

Because that's what we all want to do once we find this freedom, right? That's what you and I are trying to do.

Exactly.

Help other people. Don't, don't, don't get stuck in shame. Find your freedom. And so I, I started being what was called an enrollment coach and then a client journey coach. Um, and then I started studying the science behind what they were teaching me. And I was like, no way, because I had been a Christian for 30 years. I had studied the Bible and there were just all these connections to what they were doing with how we were healing. And I was like, what? And there were just a bunch of faith-based people coming in filled with shame, the same type that I was. And I— don't worry, you're going to hear God's word and biblical wisdom in here. We're just not going to use the same words, right?

Yeah.

And so some of the things that just truly changed my life, and this It's so simple. We talk about it all the time, but gratitude— there's so much science in gratitude. And it's once we can shift our thinking, we literally change the structure of our brain. We start thinking about the glass half full versus half empty. And in addiction and habit change and, and a lot of my work, right, I'm, I'm having people practice things for 84 straight days in a daily devotional. And part of it is listing gratitude for 84 straight days. And that might be really hard at the beginning, really hard, because there's just— we're just in a state. But if we're tracking it, wait, I slept better, I had a better conversation with people, I'm connecting with my kids, not, you know, I, uh, my blood—

I love that as a goalpost. I had a better conversation. It can be so simple.

Oh, it can be.

It can.

Yeah. And just, I was doing one of my devotionals on a habit I have about picking up my cell phone, and but what was coming up in gratitude, because I did it in the winter, was heat. You know, just being grateful for your cup of coffee, for the heat in the house, and we don't realize how good we have it. We, we just, the simplest things can come out. But when we're tracking it and we're trying to put aside something that's kind of stealing the joy in our lives, it's incredible. And so, um, it solves for the next scientific thing, which is cognitive dissonance, right? Believing 2 competing thoughts about the same thing.

Oh, that is some crazy-making behavior right there. Boy, oh, it'll drive you Right.

I love it. I need it. I can't live without it. What, you know, versus I hate it, it's ruining my life, I need to stop. 2 different, completely opposing conversations about the exact same thing. And so solving for cognitive dissonance is solving for truth. And, you know, whether or not we're a believer, um, you know, in the Christian faith— I, I believe the Bible contains a lot of truth. Well, even if you're not a believer, people believe The Bible contains a lot of wisdom, right?

Yes.

And so that's what we're doing every day. We're solving for cognitive dissonance. Like, yeah, what's true? And, and the gratitude is working together in this, right? The truth is my life is getting better every single day. I choose a different path.

Yeah.

Um, something that really changed my life was studying positive intelligence. And that's the science of shifting your thoughts from negative to positive. I got trained and certified in that. And again, your brain will light up, the right side of your brain will light up when you learn to shift a pattern of thinking from negative to positive. the parts that deal with love, compassion, empathy, creativity. Well, guess what? The Bible taught in 2 Corinthians 10:5 talks about capturing your thoughts and redirecting, demolishing thoughts that are not of God and redirecting them.

Yeah.

And so again, blowing my mind about how these things are happening. There's the science behind gratitude— I mean, meditation, right? There's so much science about how meditation can make us feel less anxious and stressed and shift our brain structure. Well, guess what? The Bible says meditate on my word. So, you know, again, I was just studying all the science and, and just, it was it was making me crazy.

And then validating it, right? Yeah, through the word of God that you already knew. So yeah, I think, I think what's happening now, Roseanne, is that, uh, what people knew thousands of years ago, science is now going, oh yeah, they were right, you know?

Right, this is 2,000 years ago. And by the way, you know, Romans 12:2 talks about do not conform to the patterns of this world. And I think when we get stuck in addictions, right? We are conforming to this immediate gratification. Get the girl, get the guy, reduce the anxiety, come home from work, take, take the glass, relax, right? That's patterns of this world. But instead, be renewed, be transformed by the renewal of your mind. Well, it's all— that was written thousands of years ago. And only in the last 100 years are we talking about understanding It's a terrible tattoo, but I have that tattooed on my arms.

Romans 12:2, be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Yeah, and I have just change your mind on the top of it as a reminder that we can at any time consciously choose to work towards a new default. And I think new science around addictive behaviors being habits, right, make sense for people that traditional recovery programs may not work for. So I always say, look, if you try it and you do give it your all and it's not working, instead of blaming yourself, instead of shaming yourself, instead of going back out, do what you did— keep seeking until you find. I promise you, if you keep seeking until you find, you will find what you need. But there are so many different modalities out there and find the one that fits your design and build. And it sounds like you landed on yours.

Yeah. And Lisa, I want to get back now to the habit thing because this is how my work transformed. So I knew, if I'm talking to anybody that's recovered from this, I understand addictions can transfer, right? You got to be careful. So when I wrote, um, The Plans He Has for Me, which is for the, the alcohol, and you can use it for substances, I knew it was about habits. And, um, I, I wrote in there habit, habit, habit, habit, because once you solve for this physical, uh, addiction, which, um, can resolve inside 2 weeks to a month for most things, you're left with the habit, right? And so I ended up meeting a psychiatrist who's the medical director of the American Association of Christian Counselors, and he's the one that said, he goes, What's the end? This isn't about alcohol. This is all about— this is about every thought, emotion, and life-interfering thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. And I go, well, I kind of know that, but I'm an expert in alcohol. And by the way, before that, cigarettes. So, um, and, and so we ended up collaborating and updating the same devotional for habits.

And, and I've been working for years with people and trying to find the languaging that feels more comfortable for people. And so now I call myself a habit and addiction specialist. Right? When people can put themselves— nobody wants to go, I'm addicted, but they can say, I have a bad habit.

Yeah, fair enough. Fair point.

Fair point.

Yes, it feels lighter. Yes.

Yes. And I think that speaks to the habit. And I can speak to anything if it's, you know, a life-interfering thought or a life-interfering behavior or a life-interfering substance. They all kind of work the same way in our brains.

Yeah, well, many people know a behavior is harming them, yet they still are unable to stop. So what, from your, from your research and your work with other people and your, your lived experience in doing this, what is happening in the brain when a habit becomes so wired, and then shame becomes attached to it? So how do we get those habits so wired in our brain?

Well, we repeat them over and over and over again, and, and we can repeat our subconscious or unconscious mind, depending on if you're in the medical field. Um, but it's just a tape recorder, and it is completely indifferent to what you practice. It just remembers what you practice. And the best— I love giving the example of getting a new job and needing to, you know, use your Apple Maps or your Google Maps to get from one place to the other, to find the route.

Yeah.

And then eventually you practice, you practice, and you practice. Well, your brain is energy efficient. It's like we don't want to learn the same thing every, every time we, we do something. So once we practice, it becomes automatic. Well, eventually we're talking to our friend about what happened, you know, yesterday with the kids, and we got to work. We took left turns, we took right turns, we stopped at red lights, we, we had— we looked in the rearview mirror to see if cars were coming, right? And somehow we safely got from point A to point B without ever thinking about it, right?

Yeah.

It was automatic. And basically our brain, we can train our brain. And the more— that's a simplified version of our brain forming habits, right?

Yeah.

But what's happening in addiction is it's a dopamine shot, right? It's a real wee kind of thing, which is why we're attracted to it. Because, you know, we go to a behavior or we go to a substance Because it does solve for the anxiety and it does check us out for a moment. And so we go, wow, that worked. I want to do it again. Well, the problem is that's bringing neurotransmitters like so far above the level where our body was designed to do that. If we continue doing it over and over and over again, our body is amazing. It says, well, you're using that substance or that behavior to bring all the neurotransmitters I need for joy, so I don't really need to make it anymore. And that is the frightening part. That is why we lose joy in ordinary things that we do, right? Because our body has now relied on the substance or the behavior to provide The hit.

Yeah.

But then it starts interfering with our life. It starts interfering with our time, with our money, with our relationships, right? With our peace, with our, you know, all aspects of our life. And then we don't understand, well, why can't we stop? Well, we've changed the physical structure of our brain. We've changed the the trigger and response, you know. Mine was I'm stressed, or yeah, mine was I'm stressed. I think a lot of people do that with these substances and behaviors.

Yeah, totally relatable, totally relatable. Yeah, and I think it starts with, you know, one thought at a time, right? We start shifting one thought at a time, and then eventually the cool thing is, is you have a new default, you have a whole new operating system. But those at the beginning, that's why support is so important. Because you, you mentioned something I think is important to bring attention to. At first, like, peace feels like boredom, feels like holy terror. Things are not chaotic. What do I do with myself?

Right? Yeah.

So that's where support is so vital to the recovery process. So, and the right kind of support, because for me, you know, when I got out of inpatient rehab, went into outpatient rehab, and then did 2 meetings a day, 6 days a week for 2 years. And Roseanne, I was still feeling like crap. I was still having a really hard time. I was really struggling. It just wasn't the situation for how I'm built and designed. In addition, it wasn't the situation for my previous traumas. Because what was happening is the, the, the— they were getting reignited, right? They were, they were getting brought up just in sitting in those spaces, hearing all of these stories that my body was not built and designed to carry or hold without somebody there to hold space for me. So it wasn't the right fit for me after I outgrew it. But It helped get me a starting point, right? So yeah, I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world, but I eventually outgrew it. So, and needed something different, needed different modalities, and there are so many. So let's talk about, for the person listening who has tried, okay?

So there's somebody out there going, wait a minute, I'm— this isn't working for me either, and I thought it was me. So what do you want them to understand today if they're listening and they're like, oh my gosh, like they may have heard this 10 times, but they're listening to you and it finally hit home for them? What would you like them to hear today about what next steps for them could be?

I'm so excited that you even asked that question. Um, not— I'm gonna hold off on the next steps because the try and the fail That's part of it. And I didn't realize, I didn't realize this. So what was happening is I was coaching and I was talking to a lot of people who wanted to quit. And some were like, yeah, I'm ready, I'm in, I'm done, you know, let's go. And some were like, um, no. And, and then they're like, I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm trying. So I ended up writing a book called Prepare to Quit. Like, what is it? I looked at the difference. What's the difference between somebody who's, I'm ready, and somebody who says, can't? And I started putting 8 keys together that were important. And one of them is accountability, of course. And, but then I ended up asking people for endorsements on the book and some medical professionals, psychologists, psychiatrists, they're like, I don't know if you know this, but you hit upon something called the transtheoretical model of change. I'm like, what?

You're like, that sounds very fancy. Yeah, it's a thing.

It's a thing that all the medical professionals know, that in addiction there's stages of changes. There's pre-contemplation, there's contemplation, there's preparation, there's, you know, and there's all these stages. And I'm like, what are we doing? We're, we're, we're sending somebody from I have a problem to go to those meetings or sign up for this. And when— and, and this is what I'm so excited about telling people. Now, of course, there's a spectrum, right? If you need rehab, if you need medical intervention, this is— not what I'm talking about. Um, but I am trying to talk to the 95% of people that like, yeah, I gotta do something about this, what do I do?

Yeah.

Um, but practicing and failing is part of understanding and learning, as long as you take out the shame.

Yeah.

As long as you take out the shame. So I'll give you an example, is practicing awareness. I used to be like Groundhog Day. Every day, come home from somewhere, it's 5 o'clock, and I'm just gonna have one glass of wine every single night. I don't know how I did it. Passing out on the couch and blacking out later and not remembering what I watched or ate the next day, right?

Mm-hmm.

But stopping long enough instead of shaming myself for it, but understanding the facts of what's going on. One, I lied to myself. Just one. And I can't believe I didn't stop long enough to be aware of this. I would just do it automatically. Just one. Yeah. But when we stop and we address the facts— wait, I, I said just one, and it's never just one.

Yeah.

And I, um, I passed out and I don't remember things, right? And boy, that really sucks. It really stinks. Um, and then Maybe make a note of that. Yeah, not say I'm a loser, I can't do anything right.

Right, be aware of it. Yeah, create awareness.

And then do it Tuesday, and then do it Wednesday, and go, wait, I see a pattern.

Yes, yes.

And awareness is kind of, you know, without the shame, it's really the first step of, of this practicing cognitive dissonance, the truth. I also think it's important to understand that it's the substance, it's not you. And yeah, okay, we got duped into believing a lie about what that substance would give us, but it's that thing that's causing the problem. It's not me. So I want that thing out of my life, right?

Yeah.

It's like a toxic person. You talk about trauma, Right? We don't want toxic things in our life.

Yeah.

And so, um, yeah, I just think that's, that's really important to— for people to understand that the try and the try and the try and the try, that's the part, if you can take away the shame, that should give you the confidence to go, you know what, that thing stinks, I gotta get it out of my life. And, um, yeah, so, well, yeah, and statistics—

and guys, check these, they change all the time— but, um, statistics will say that somebody has to try to quit a minimum of 7 times before they achieve any long-term sobriety. So it is absolutely part of the process, and I love the fact that you wrote a book called Prepare to quit, because for some of us, we have to build into it.

Absolutely.

In order to sustain it.

So let me share something really cool with you too about Romans 12:2, because a lot of people stop at, you know, do not conform to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, and they stop right there. But there's a continue— there's a comma and there's a continuation, and it says that by testing you will know what is the good and pleasing and perfect will of God. Well, that word testing— we don't, we don't test things in scientific experiments just once to know it's true, right? We have to test things over and over and over again. And if we're aware and if we're develop— we're aware of patterns, then we're testing and we're developing truth and we're developing— we're getting rid of cognitive dissonance and we're wanting something better than to lie to ourselves every night and say just one.

Just one, and it's never just one. Yeah, just one, maybe 3, maybe a whole box now. Here we go.

I can barely believe I actually said that to myself night after night after night. And no wonder. I mean, I didn't have awareness of it, and no wonder I was beating myself up.

Yeah, you know, it's, it's so— well, we, we do it in almost everything because of how we're conditioned. I think especially as women, because, you know, um, being good and being the caretakers and the nurturers and the ones taking care of everybody else, it's really easy to forget about ourselves in the process. So, Roseanne, if somebody out there is stuck and they've tried some other things and they haven't worked. One, where can they find your book? 2, where can they find you to work with you?

Uh, my books and me can be found at www.choosefreedom.today. And yeah, choosefreedom.today. There's so many free resources. I also have a podcast called Say Goodbye and Imagine. Um, I have devotionals for, uh, for habits and for alcohol. I have the Prepare to Quit book. So yeah, just lots of things, blogs.

Oh, I love it. Well guys, listen, you don't even have to write that down. We're going to put it in a clickable link down at the bottom of the podcast for you. All right, Roseanne, we always ask our guests 2 questions before we close out. Are you ready for them?

Okay, I'm ready.

All right, here we go. The first question is, in your own life, what did you perform just to survive, and what did setting that role mask or performance down do for you?

Hmm, yeah, I, I performed. I was on a treadmill, is what I, I call it, of just doing life without thinking about it. I was checking boxes. of performance. Like, oh, if I, if I finish this, if I get the promotion, if I get the raise, if I study scripture, if I show up, if I volunteer, like, right?

Yeah.

Um, good Christian, good executive, good, you know, good person. And I was really trying to be all those things, right? And what happened, um, because I was hiding something Because I was filling my life with shame instead of truth.

Mm-hmm.

Is I felt it. I felt like, but if you really knew me, right? So this horrible cycle of self-talk, of brutal, brutal self-talk and self-hatred. I call using substances a form of self-hatred. And I did. I hated myself. I just had to fake it through, you know.

Yeah, no more faking now though, right?

Freedom, freedom, freedom. And, and that's why I, I call it Choose Freedom, because every day we have a choice to listen to the lies of this world or to choose a path that gives us peace and joy despite circumstances, right? And yeah, I want I want to choose that path.

I love it. I love it. Well, Roseanne, what do you want us to be having more conversations about? What should we be talking about more of?

I think we have to start having conversations, uh, more conversations about the fact that we're all distracted by the lies of this world. There's always something. You may not see it on the outside. That's what you're trying to so desperately to, to share with people. You might see it, not see it on the outside, but we all do. I've done enough coaching to know that it doesn't matter how successful somebody is or how somebody looks on the outside. There is some pattern of behavior, some pattern of thought that is wreaking havoc. with them.

Tormenting.

Yeah. I like that word, tormenting. And if we can all start talking more honestly about it, um, because that's what, that's what these— the accountability does, that's what the groups do. They give you a safe place to talk and share and know that you're not alone. Because when you are in your head you think you're the only one having the problem. Well, I'm sorry, alcohol alone is 30 million people in the U.S. And then—

Big number.

Let's add some drugs to it, the number increases substantially. Shopping, pornography, gambling, let's keep adding. Oh wait, food. There are food addictions too. Now we're talking about the majority of population, right?

Everybody has something. So can we get okay with saying, I'm not okay, I'm struggling, and I need help?

Yeah. Amen.

Yeah, I agree. Well, and friends out there, as we close out, I'm gonna ask you the same thing. What might you be performing in order to survive? And what will setting that role mask or performance down do for your life? To maybe just make you feel a little bit lighter. I am your host, Lisa Lacey. This has been our lovely guest, Roseanne Forte. And when you find the answer, we will see you at the edge. Thank you, Roseanne.

Thank you for having me.