Transcript of Charli XCX

Hi, my name is Charlie Xex, and I feel nervous about being Konan O'Brien's friend.

Fall is here, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brand new shoes, walking loose, climb the fence, books and pens. I can tell that we are going to be friends.

Hey there.

Welcome to Conor O'Brien Needs a friend.

Joined as always by Sona Movesassian. You didn't change your last name when you got married.

I didn't change it. No, it's a lot of paperwork.

Yeah, and a lot of consonants. What? What's Tak's last name? Is it Takasian?

No, it's not Takesian.

I always think it's his first name plus Ezezian.

I know, but that's not how our opinion names work.

Movesesian has a lot of consonants in it.

It's a lot of letters that really shouldn't be next to each other, like the V and the S.

Oh, I know. It's an explosion at a Campbell's soup factory.

Okay, who has an apostrophe in his last name?

How awful is that? I'm here in my glass house. I'm firing stones. I thought I was safe, and apparently I'm not. Matt Gourley joining us as well. There's a fine name, Matt Gourley. None of you are O, Brian, or. It used to be Matt Gourley.

Long, long long ago. What? Mac Gourley. You were Mac Gourley?

No, I'm told the last name, the same name.

Oh, you got rid of the Mac?

Well, I didn't personally. I've just heard long ago that it was Mac Gourley. Oh. Mac Gourley. You guys are looking at me like I did this somehow.

Wait, so your name would be Matt Gourley? That's impossible to say. I would have thought that it would be named Matt. Matt McGorley. You know what? They dropped it.

I think it was Matt Gourley until you were born, and you were born Matt, so they knew that they had to lose the Mac.

Yeah.

He was born with a, Hi, my name is Matt, on his chest. I was. It's interesting that we're talking about birth and related matters because you are going to be taking a leave of absence for a while. This is big news.

What's going on?

Well, I'm having a baby.

Not my wife, I am. Yeah, you're doing it all yourself. I won't say ask when specifically, but this is going to happen soonish?

Soon, yeah. God only knows it may already have happened the way this seems to be going. Who knows? Amanda's just got this feeling that it's coming early. Oh, boy. Yeah, this is a girl. We're having another little girl.

That's amazing.

I'm over the moon. I'm excited about this.

Well, I think I'm the first one to make this analogy, but to me, it just feels like you're going from one on one defense to zone.

Is that something I just thought of?

That implies that I understand sports in any way.

Also, it implies that I've never heard a thousand people say that.

Well, you've had two kids.

You obviously have two kids, but they came at once. You won the lottery in getting it over with.

I did. I know a lot of people think twins is hard, but I think having a little kid and a baby and doing that all over again, that's harder.

Yeah, because Glenn is already anticipating it.

Two at the same time.

I can't even imagine that. I know. One punched the other out first. Is that what happened? There was a brawl inside the womb.

Oh, probably.

Yeah. Then Mikey punched Charlie, and he went flying out like the way cowboys would fly out of a bar room.

Yeah, there's a lot of brawl still happening.

Did you have little windows, little doors down there that went- Saloon doors. Saloon doors. Yeah. And punch and then... Oh, God. This is highly problematic. Did you hear piano music? Punch. Anyone It's like someone flying out. Mikey punched Charlie. Charlie goes flying out. Then, wow, Mikey comes out himself to finish the job, and they just punched each other down the hallway of the hospital.

That's how my birth happened.

Well, Sorry. Just can't get that image of the saloon doors.

Don, because what I think is, you're talking about my vagina.

Yeah, sure.

Do you mean your saloon door?

That's horrible. Is your vagina spring loaded? Oh, my God. Does it go...

Anyway, I just like the idea of saloon music coming out.

Listen.

So I had a C-section.

Yeah. Okay.

So your stomach is a saloon door? Yeah.

Oh, God. No, no, that's different.

That's a cellar door.

You leave. The kid looks around, sees a tornado coming. Not yet. Goes back in again.

Oh, my God.

Yeah. Get in here, Toto. Hurry, hurry. So anyway. Oh, my God. Vaginas are saloon doors. C-sections are, of course, Kansas. Kansas cellar doors. Well, let's get back to the real story here, which is that you and Amanda are having a second child. This is very exciting.

It's exciting. I'm old to be a dad, so it just- No, you're not. Yeah, I mean, I am. I mean, this is just not how it's typically done, but that's how it's going to happen.

When you're not old to be a dad, look at Michael Douglas, I think, had children when he was- Robert De Niro, Al Pacino.

They're having children at 80. Yeah. Doesn't it seem wrong?

You're young compared to them.

Compared to them?

Yeah. They'll have the same bedtime.

I go to bed before my children already.

They just seem picturing Al Pacino in the crib with the baby. I guess it's good night.

What do you want to bring me some crackers.

You're going to get a swine ax. The hell? It's only six. I can't believe we're in here. Give me my milk. I can't do it.

Have you noticed that mama has a big ass?

Anyway, a lot of people are doing it, and they're much younger than you.

Yeah, I know.

So it's going to be fun. Older than you, you mean?

You're right. You know what I just revealed? This is what I'm saying. I just revealed that I'm too old to be a dad. I can't think properly. Oh, no. Yeah, that thing that Sona said, that's what I meant. You're much younger than they are. This is LA, baby.

Everyone's having babies.

Yeah, you're like a studio head. Yeah.

Yeah. You're going to be in a house full of girls, including your cat.

I know. I'm going to be the only man.

You know what?

Even that's pushing it.

I know. If you need to boost the testosterone around there, I'll stop by. Oh, dear.

We don't need a deficit.

Why did the estrogen levels just spike?

I'll come. I'll get there.

I'll do it. I'll You know what?

Yes. It is very exciting. How long are you going to be departing for?

I'm going to be gone for about three months, but I'm sure- What? That's way too long. I know. Hey, man, it's modern times. Paternity leave. Yeah, baby.

Wow. You know who would not like this conversation at all, my wife, because I never got any maternity leave, and she was like, What's going on? Got to do another show, baby. America demands it. Turns out they didn't.

But don't worry, Amanda will be here in my place.

Very good.

She'd be great, She would.

I will be popping in and out just because we've recorded ahead some and stuff like that. You know what I mean? Like, next episode, I think I'll be there for the interview and things like that, so it may seem odd.

Quick question, and I don't want this to sound crass or bullying or in any way intimidating.

Do you get paid while you're gone?

That's a question I have for you. You have a good question.

Adam, how does this stuff work?

You don't have to answer that. I don't want you to be on this spot.

We're going to have this conversation.

Well, I'm an independent contractor. I'm not salaried. Perfect.

But you also So you support paternity leave and a man with his new child. Listen, I want to make sure that everyone's taken care of, and I believe in everyone having good childcare But of course, my hands are tied.

I am but a figurehead on the SS, Conan O'Brien.

Is this going to be me and you?

Yeah. Okay. No, wait. I think David is going to sit in. We'll get some David in here. Yeah, we'll get David to sit Of course, Bley will be yelling and pitching a mile a minute.

Yes.

Yeah.

Hey, guess what? With those energy nuggets, we can't go wrong. Yeah.

I reserve the ride. If there's some stellar guests, I'm coming in.

Oh, trust me. Yeah. Hey, the whole cast of Blivelblur, their cast, Men of the Smith. I don't know.

What? Men of the Smith?

No, Men of the Smith. Men of the Smith? That sounds like a Star Wars erotic calendar.

I I would watch that. That's when I watch Star Wars.

Men of the Smith. Blivelbler. Also, Men of the Sif. I said it like there was vomit in my mouth. Men of the Fifth. Men of the Fifth. Well, listen.

The 2026 erotic Men of the Sif calendar.

Oh, man, check out February. His Dizzle Dazzle goes on forever. Oh, boy. Listen, we should get into it. Listen, sincere congratulations to you and Amanda. Thank you.

I joke, I'm thrilled.

You I know you.

I'm anticipating it very much, so I'm nervous, but I'm excited.

Okay, well, good. Could be a godfather. Here we go.

Today's guest.

That was awkward.

Today's guest.

Gosh.

It was good enough for Sonas, kids, but that was just weird. Hey, you want to hear real awkwardness? Just press rewind just a little bit, and you'll hear the sound of just Nothing. Nothing. Hey, today's guest is a Grammy award-winning singer-singer-songwriter who now stars as a fictionalized version of herself in a terrific new mockumentary film, which I've seen, and I loved it, The Moment.

We're very excited she's here today.

Charlie XCX. Welcome.

I might be your polar opposite it in every way. No, no, no. Although I'm huge in the clubs. You should know that.

Yeah. Huge in the clubs.

I'm huge in the London club scene. I bet.

You just never saw me, but I was huge. But my daughter and I saw your movie two days ago and loved it, really loved it. When the movie was over, my reaction was, Well, I don't worry about her because you are so smart. It is such a smart movie. Thank I think just the right thing for you to be doing at this moment, and we'll talk about that in a bit. We'll really get into it. But I just wanted to start by saying, A, my team gets to see a lot of cool people. They're pretty excited today, to the point where when your car pulled up, people ran up to the window. Oh, my God. Everyone who works for me, and they're all young, they run up to the window and they were like, It's a white Explorer. It's a Ford. It's a Ford. I'm like, Get away from the I threw myself on the hood.

I'm sorry. We hit him off with the wipes.

You turned on the wipes? Yeah, good for you.

But you're a very inspiring person because I love the arc of your career. It hasn't all come quickly for you, but it's been amazing. What I wanted to start with was just your origin story, your superhero origin story, which is you lived dual lives growing up. Yes. Because your mom and your dad came from completely different worlds. Is that right?

True. Yeah. My mom grew up in Uganda. Her and her family had been there for years. She's Indian, and she was removed from the country by Idiamin in the '70s. Then she came to the UK then, and her and her family were be housed. I remember she told me it was like when they touched down in the UK, weirdly at the airport that's opposite where my parents still live now, she'd never experienced snow before. This was the first time she had ever been somewhere so cold. They gave all of the kids these huge fur coats. She's like, stepping off the plane.

Wait, why are they handing her a pimp coat?

Yeah, I don't know. She's like, it was a cool welcome, I guess.

You mean like when you go to Hawaii, you get a lay. When you come to London, you get a stuff.

Yeah, you get a giant fur coat.

Welcome. They were like, swagged out, I guess. Then my dad, he is adopted and his adopted family is Scottish, so we say he's Scottish. But he grew up near where they raised me. They met in a club on New Year's Eve.

Emma Am I right? You were born in Cambridge, which I was in Cambridge weeks ago.

How is it there? I haven't been back for a minute.

It's Hogwarts. I was hanging around the university, and it was just, oh, my God, Hogwarts exists. Yeah, totally. And this is it. But it was lovely. It's almost like a theme part because it's exactly what you think the quintessential old British university should look like. Yes. But you then have this, I wouldn't say, schizophrenic, but dual world that you're living in, where if you're hanging out in your dad's world, in whether it's Essex or Cambridge, you feel like an outsider, I'm imagining in some ways. Then if you're visiting with your mom's people, that's a whole different experience.

Yeah, totally. I mean, it's funny. It's like I grew up in Essex, and I went to school in a town called Bishop Stoughtford. It was a lot of kids, predominantly. Then on the weekends, I would go and visit my mom's side of the family who lived in Crawley. That was a very much more like Traditionally Indian set up. Big family gatherings, so much food, Bollywood, playing in the background, speaking Gujarathi, except I never really learned much apart from Jolly Jolly, which means quick, quick. That's all I know.

That's really all you need to know.

Yeah. Then sometimes doing prayer and sometimes going to mosque and things like that. Then not really having any of that experience when I was going to school or during the weeks, really. It was hard to really feel that I fit into either world, I suppose, because most of my classmates' touch point for an Indian person was a pooh on the Simpsons. It was like that was what an Indian person was. It was a bit jarring, but also it was also, I must say, it was okay. My mom had to struggle a lot more with dealing with racism and things like that when she was not only growing up, but even when she was living in our town. I remember one day she came home because she had a milkshake thrown over her and been told to go home and things like that. I've been very lucky that I haven't had to experience that, probably because I'm a lot more passing than she is. But yeah, it is interesting being from both worlds and not particularly feeling like I belonged in either. It's also funny because I think doing what I do now, I definitely feel that sometimes when I Google myself, which I do, I sometimes see that people are mad that I don't really talk about this side of my life that much.

But the reason that I don't is because no one asks me. Now that you have sat here and asked me, I'm more than willing and happy to talk about it. I just feel very awkward about using my culture as a USP. I find it to be a little bit grotesque, and it's not something that I feel like I really want to do because there are parts of me that feel just distant from both sides of my upbringing. But when someone asked me about it, I'm so happy to talk about it.

I don't know what you think about this, but I've always had this notion or theory that it's good for an artist to be maybe slightly uncomfortable when they're younger. That may sound like, Oh, that can't be true. But I feel there's something to the idea that not feeling particularly cool when you're a kid or not being sure what your identity is. It's like the sand in the oyster that gives you the pearl. It may be something that you can access. Is that possible for you?

Oh, my gosh, 100%. I wouldn't say that that just comes from my my heritage. It's like that, I think for me comes from feeling I felt like I was a loser. It was like coming in, which I feel like so many artists have that experience of they're just They just feel so isolated and alone and uncool and all the things or whatever. I don't know. I definitely felt that way and still do. I think it's actually why I used the word nervous at at the top of this is because often when I meet people, I'm at a party and it's nighttime, and there are so many additional things that can help me feel relaxed. If you know what I mean? We're talking about hot chocolate. Yes. I'm not drinking hot chocolate right now. You know what I mean? It's like- Then you should try hard drugs.

Yeah.

Matt, she doesn't know what hard drugs are. I don't. Everyone thinks I do, but I just don't. But yeah, so it's like in the cold light of day, sometimes I do get a little bit nervous, and I revert back to that younger girl who I think sometimes would feel really out of her comfort zone when meeting people and feeling like... You have to establish that you're a functioning human with a brain and things like that. Sometimes it's like,.

But I'm telling you, I think a lot of people listening can relate to this. It's a lot of people that would look at you and the stunning, astounding success you've had in the career you've had and say, Oh, She's just cool and she knows it, and that's who she is, and they don't understand the chemistry behind it. There needs to be moments, big moments, where you're insecure, where you think, I don't have any ideas. Sometimes imposter syndrome. Everybody, all the people I admire have that in moments. Of course. They can access it. I'm someone who can go up in front of a lot of people and take charge and be perfectly in control. But I can also, in a second, after I'm done with my performance, access the me that's 16 years old, bad skin, doesn't know how to talk to girls, way too skinny, feels like a loser. That person is always lurking around, and I can access that person, whether I want to or not in a second. That's just part of the formula.

Yeah, I agree. I think it's the duality of both that makes a good artist. I can't imagine if you were just so chill and confident and happy with yourself all the time, you'd make terrible art. I know. Probably.

Yeah, exactly.

No, that's why nothing would enrage me more than if a really good-looking guy that I knew in high school who was an incredible athlete, went on to become the seminal artist. That would be enraged.

It was a nightmare.

I would say, no, whatever success I have is my consolation prize for years of celibacy. You don't need to know about that, Charlie. That's my problem, not your problem. Okay, I'm going to tell you a way that that your parents are different than mine.

There's many ways, but this is the biggest one that stands out to me, the way that my parents are different from Charlie XCX's parents. Your parents took you to perform at illegal raves. Never happened with me. I heard that fact, and I thought, this is really interesting because you were young at the time. They were taking you to illegal raves. These are parents who really, they were out of their comfort zone, especially your mom, to go to a rave and to take you to this world is a level of support that to me feels phenomenal.

Yeah, of course. Obviously, at the time, I was like, Can you guys wait outside? You're cramping my style. I was so ungrateful in a way because who wants to go to the rave with their parents? It's so fucking embarrassing.

Especially when they jump on stage.

You're like, Oh, God. But But also, I will say they were very, very respectful of my space and stuff when we went. Yes, now with hindsight, I'm like, Wow, that is so cool of them. They didn't have to do that. They drove me up there and would hang out in the back. This is late stuff. I would go on at 4: 00 AM. You know what I mean? They were so cool of them to do that. I will say when I said to them that I really had this big plan to move in with one of the rave promoters. When I was 16 in a warehouse in Hackney Wick, they drew the line there, and they were like, That sounds like a bad idea. I was like, Does it? I think it sounds amazing. They were like, Yeah, no. They were supportive.

I like them even more now.

I know.

They did draw the line.

Yeah, they're great. I think it's cool. My dad was very much a self-made guy. He worked super hard his whole life, working class background, really did his thing and did everything that he could to have more for himself. I think He was very much like with the whole rave stuff, he was like, Oh, if you're really passionate about this, then you should go and perform because maybe then you can do that for real. I think most parents would be like, You shouldn't do that. That feels unreliable and stressful, and why don't you pursue something else? But I think he was always a bit of a dreamer, which sounds like a horrid cheesy thing to say, but he really was. I think for him, it was like, Oh, if you're passionate about something, that's really cool. Let's try and figure that out. I feel very, very, very lucky for that. It's very cool.

Do you ever say to yourself, I could have been a really good tax attorney?

All the time. All the time, yeah.

Because when I was watching your movie, I was like, I'm sorry. I said she's amazing, but tax attorney. We don't have a lot of them. I know.

Yeah, my side hustle.

It would be so great if that was your side hustle. After a massive show, where are you going? Well, I've got to go over these.

Who does your books? W2.

As a kid, you were listening to Spice Girls, no doubt, Britney Spears, and Then at some point at a young age, you start thinking about writing yourself, and that is a leap. What does the early, early writing for you look like? Is it pen and paper and trying to write things out in a book, or is it playing around with a musical instrument?

It was a lot of keyboard, playing the keyboard. I had this Yamaha keyboard, and I was making a lot of beats on there and then recording separately all the different layers. Yeah, it was like writing lyrics and then trying to figure out cords and very much piano-orientated. I think it all began because I had this boyfriend who turned out to be gay. Honestly, all the signs were so there. He was the coolest. Not many 15-year-old boys are that cool. He was so cool. He had great style, great taste. He made me a mixtape of stuff that I had never heard before. I think it was like that was the moment where I was like, Oh, he opened my eyes to all of these different artists that I hadn't really been listening to that much before, some indie bands, and then stuff like Gang of Four. I don't know, a lot of stuff that it hadn't been on my radar. At that point, I think I had the hunger to try and write things myself a bit more.

Well, I mean, step number one is always you have to put stuff into the machine. You have to open up your head and a volume of not just a type of music, but every type of music. They call it having big ears, but just the more stuff you're listening to at an early age, I swear to God, they're going to figure out that it happens almost on a neurological level. You can redirect, your synapses can grow, You can teach yourself that it's a big musical world out there and it becomes part of you. But a lot of it's just osmosis. It's just listening, listening, listening. Something that really interests me about your career, which is there's so many ways that I can't relate to what you do. I admire it, but I can't relate to it. One thing I can relate to is that I started as a writer and I would write for other people. I would write things for other voices. I listened and watched a lot of comedy, but then I would write someone, a known performer. I did that for years before I solidified my thing. I think I know early on, you're writing for a lot of other people, and that was your way in.

In some ways, it's helpful because you can observe. You're clearly crazy intelligent. You could observe other people, how they're living, what it's like to be a huge star, and you can stand off of it for a little bit and participate, but not get the full blast right away. Does that sound right?

It's interesting. It's like there is this misconception that I was writing for people first. I actually made a record first, and it was really good. It was critically claimed, but it sold about, honestly, 11 copies. It was really like no one bought it, basically. No one bought it, no one really heard of it, apart from the five people who reviewed it, love them. But there was a small fan base of people who were into it. It was called True Romance. I was signed at that time to Atlantic Records, and I'm pretty sure they would have dropped me there and then after that album. At this point in time, this is, God, what, 2012? I could be so wrong, 2013. But this was a point in time where record labels had so much more power over an artist in their career and whether they could even have a career. I mean, I think it's so different now. But back then, it was like, especially being a woman making pop music, it was like, if you didn't have a label, forget about it. You know what I mean? But right at the end of that album campaign, which it wasn't even a campaign.

It just came out, whatever. I wrote this song called I Love It, which was sung by this Swedish band called Iconopop. That became a big I think that started my career of writing for others. If I hadn't had that, then, yeah, it probably would have been accountant or whatever for me.

Tax. Listen. Let me point out, there's still time. I know. I know. I know a guy who can help you.

Great.

I know your team doesn't like what I'm taking you down.

They love it. It's responsible.

If you would take three years off, just hear me out.

Our first law school. We'll do it later. Yeah. Good. Well, that song, too, I know you're singing on that song as well.

I am, yes. Yeah.

That experience of you getting your music across and working with another artist or through another artist, you have that period of time. You have this long arc of making very successful music. My daughter, who I told you is massive fan, been listening to for years, long before Brad, and was a fan of yours. And then, so when the moment comes that Brat comes out, Brat Summer, the whole cultural phenomenon of that, you're probably maybe a little better prepared if you can be prepared for something like that.

For sure. I mean, 100 %. It's funny. I guess as an artist, I had already dabbled in commercial success through Yeah, the songs I had written for other people and been a feature on. That had literally taken me around the world and allowed me to perform on different stages and things like that. I had this second-hand experience, as you were saying, of pop star success It was a success, but I was the one photobombing the photo rather than in the main center frame. But it was cool. I was cool with that. Then I had my own song, this song called Boom which was in this film called Fault in Our Stars. That was my big like, Oh, now she's going to do it. It didn't really happen. I don't think I was ready then. I didn't really have my brain fully dialed was an artist brain in a way. I wasn't connecting all the pieces of the puzzle together in the way that I do now when I think about my work. Then after that, I went into this other world of, Okay, now I'm going to really make underground stuff and work with my freaky friends and things like that.

When Brat happened and people were into that record, I was actually at this point where I was like, I'm just going to make this record for me, and I don't really care if anybody else likes it. This is for me, this is for my fans. I felt like I was at a point in my career where I could really sustain being able to do what I wanted, even if the album wasn't commercial actually successful. I was totally at peace with it, and I'd been so swinging on the pendulum back and forth between what I wanted as a person, as an artist prior to that. But with this record, I was down the line. I am ready for it to flop, and I am going to stand by it. I love it. This is for me and my fans who give a fuck about what I'm doing. Then obviously, it didn't really happen like that. A lot more people than my hardcore fan base into the record. I think because I had had this prior journey before of being in the background of the photos and having this almost type moments, I felt like I'd seen so much.

I'd also experienced so much of what the industry is and how people come and go and how people treat you when you're on top versus when you're not. I I think, not to sound jaded, it's not that I was jaded, I think I'm just quite realistic about Fame and the industry and how serious or unseriously you need to take it. I don't know. I feel really thankful that I got to have the experience that I had prior to RAP because I think I would have been a nightmare if I hadn't. Honestly, I think it would have been quite a dangerous concoction of things all coming together.

It makes you feel sorry or have empathy for people. There are people that have that when they're 19, 20, 21. Oftentimes, that can lead to drug addiction, mental illness, because I don't think people are meant to experience that. It's not something biologically we're meant to be able to handle. I'm just curious because there's a little bit of false modesty about Brat. It wasn't just successful. Very few times can you say that an album is a cultural phenomenon. This really was. It was artistically a smash, but it took on a whole life. The color and font of the album became a thing. That's when you know you've done something interesting. When you're passing by a coffee shop and the color and the font is telling you buy a Mochucino, and you're like, Okay, this doesn't even have anything to do with Brat. They're trying to use Brat to sell a Mochucino.

This is weird.

Was there a moment when you've had success before, you'd been playing before people, for a long time? Was there a moment that crystallized for you where you thought, Oh, my God, this is weird. This is big. Or was it all fluid in a way? You're in a flow state.

I flow state. Also, I'm very bad at doing the thing where you look back and acknowledge success. I'm like, Next thing, let's go. I don't know. I can sit here and talk to you guys and say, Actually, yeah, it was really cool. But in the moment, I wasn't really thinking like that. I think I find the whole social experiment of the whole thing really fascinating. I think the way that people interact with pop culture has always been a huge inspiration to my work. For me, this was like, Oh, my God, this was like the cherry on the cake of everything I had ever hoped for because it was so interesting to see how people, fans, haters, brands, presidential campaigns were interacting with what I was doing. I found it very, very Yeah, fascinating the way that trend cycles happen. Yeah, that's always been such interesting feel for me and for my work. I'm fascinated with how people engage with stuff like that.

This has all served you really well because the moment is your movie, and it is a mockumentary, which I don't think quite describes it because it's a Yes, it's a pretend documentary. It can be very funny at times. But the thing, and Sona, you saw it as well, the thing that struck me as I watched it and I thought, this is true. This is very, very true. I'm speaking as someone who has nothing, no connection to that world in that experience, but you can tell when something is authentic. And this is a very smart, honest, funny, wry look look at what you went through. No, it is not factual, but it's true. I was really blown away by... When you watch the movie, you get a really good sense of what it's like to be you. I know it's a version of you, but it felt to me like a very honest, cool, innovative document, and I loved I really did. I don't know what your experience was, Sona. You know what?

It reminded me of something you said, which is a lot of times people try to justify their paychecks, and it seemed like there was a lot of characters in here who were trying to justify their paychecks in a way. It shows you It shows you what it really is for people who are such a big part of the zeitgeist to have so many voices that are just coming at them. I mean, it was really funny. Alexander Skarsgaard. Oh, my God.

He's hilarious.

He's amazing in it. He's so good. He's so incredible in this movie. But everybody is so funny. It's also very real, and it's such a great glimpse into what it's like to go through what you went through.

We're big Rachel Senate fans, and she was sitting in that chair. We weeks ago, and we were talking about her new show, and I just adore her. I love that she's playing this version of herself, which isn't all that flattering, and it's really funny.

The Kylie Jenner.

Oh, my God. Kylie, she But also I love that she comes in and encounters you at a weak moment and gives you this advice, which is comically, she's telling you, You got to go for it.

You got to do this.

But in a way, you're thinking, No, don't listen to Kylie.

I She looks ethereal.

Her lighting is insane.

I look insane. I love the song about the fruit.

There were so many moments that are... Alexander Skarsgaard is coming in, and he's this very awkward, weird energy. But to your point, Sona, it's a really good point. The thing I like the most about the movie is something that happens all the time in any entertainment endeavor, which is you are you. You are a real person living in the world. You have these experiences. You are following your own North Star, creatively making your stuff. Then you hit this mother load of insane success. And you're right, credit card companies, Frappucino companies, sneaker companies, banks, presidential candidates. Everybody moves in, and then you have a team. And as we talked about earlier, a lot of your work is flow state work. But now people are saying, Now, hold on a second. It's not good for Arby's restaurant. If you say, Fuck in the song, could you instead say, I enjoy Arby's?

And you're saying, What? Why would Charlie XX be I like Arbies. It would really help.

That is depicted so well in this movie, and it is funny, but it's also not just a funny movie. It also felt like very much a snapshot of where we are right now. I think people are always trying to depict a lot of movies about famous people and people going through fame. I thought this was the truest depiction I've seen in memory of what it's really like.

Right. Because, yeah, it's like, thank you for saying all of that, by the way. It's so you. You really got the film, which is great news.

You thought I was an idiot. And the car ride on the way over in your white Ford. Who is this idiot?

That's why I said nervous.

He was nervous. Then they showed you a picture of my hair and you went, What is that?

No, you never know. You're so locked into the edit and you're like, Are we insane? It feels clear to us. And then you're like, whatever. Anyways, no, you're smart. You're really so smart. That's great.

You know what I always say?

Charlie, when someone likes my work, I say, You're smart. I know. When someone has any problem with it, I say, You're an idiot.

That's how I'm going to do press for this film.

It's Who here is an idiot?

You can show yourself out.

It's going to be really good.

You know what's really nice, too, is you have proven yourself a million times over with your abilities in music and as a performer, you're very funny.

Oh, thanks, gosh.

No, no, but you really are. You're very funny.

And the way you play things, because a lot of people think being funny is about saying a line in a funny way. And yeah, okay, that's true. But there's so much of it, which is almost harder to do, which is reactions. And so much of the movie is watching your face, watching what's happening to you. And you are the avatar for the audience. So we're watching it thinking, Jesus, Skarsgar is a weird guy. And other people are listening to him saying, Well, he's a big deal, and he's got a neck scarf, and yes, yeah. But you're taking it in, and your face is You play the comedic moments really well. Thank you. It was very funny. Thank you. And then someone turned me on to your movie reviews that you do.

I was reading your movie reviews, which you do on...

What is it? Letterbox. Letterbox. Okay, I'm cool.

Letterbox. What is it now? He said, putting on his glasses. It's a letterbox. Young lady, go to your room. You're like a complete unknown. You said, There are a lot of songs in this. Moneyball. This isn't for British people. I love this one because as you know, I did a thing once, we did a film, parodying Mad Max: Furry Road, and I was... His name's the Doof Warrior. He's the guy that hangs off the front of the truck in Mad Max Fury Road.

You don't need to tell me, friend.

Playing the guitar that shoots flame. Yeah. Your review for that fantastic movie, Is the guitarist dead? Hope so. I was just like, Oh, okay. You're also a comedy writer, which isn't fair because I've worked it out my whole life, and then you step out of a rave and do it, and I can do it really well. But I would think your sense of humor would...

It's so important to everything. It's so important to music and to just staying sane.

Yeah, absolutely. I I think it's like I have to take everything with a pinch of salt, but then at the same time, I'm also an emotional wreck, and it's balancing the two things. I try and approach everything I do with acknowledgement of both sides of my personality, whether that be making music or doing press or even the film itself. I think that's an important part about the film. It's To go back to your point about it being what you feel is an accurate depiction of fame or success or whatever the phrasing was that you used, it's so ridiculous, really, isn't it? The world that we live in or encounter, it's amazing and exciting, but it's also pointless and ridiculous and then also so rewarding sometimes. Sometimes I I'm the complete total villain. I don't just mean in the film, I mean actually in my life, in my world. I can be a fucking nightmare sometimes. You know what I mean?

What's your about that?

I think for me, it was really important that I wasn't landing in this morally perfect place at the end of the film because That has not been my experience with working in the music industry. It hasn't been my experience with Fame. It's complex. You don't always land in this place where you're like, And now I've tied up all the loose ends. I was a great person. Everybody loves me, and that's the end of the book. No, it's like, you hurt people, you burn people, you are really rude to your sweet manager on text one day, and they're having probably the worst day ever, but they're professionals, so they don't say anything back. You cancel a show, whatever it is. I don't know. But it's all so heightened and crazy. Yeah, of course. I hope that we show that in the film. I hope that whilst I acknowledge I can be like that sometimes, I also hope that I try and be a nice person. I hope that I wouldn't be the real person to ask about that.

Well, no, we've talked to people and you're a monster. That's just the way it is.

I'm talking about the people right outside, so you can let them go. Okay, good.

Fired. But yeah, they have to go. I won't tolerate that on your behalf. No, what I love is that in your work, you've made it a mission to tell girls, and you have a massive influence with young women to say, I'm scruffy, I say dumb shit, sometimes I fall down because what's modeled for them often is perfection, is fairytale, is perfect lighting, is things that they can't possibly compete with, no one can compete with. You have gone out of your way to, I think, be true to the you that's in a rave at 4: 00 in the morning. Do you know what I mean? It's sweaty and it's chaotic and you improvised some stuff and this went well, but I just knocked that light over and smashed it. Someone's going to have to pay for that, but it's not me. Whatever. I think you've been very good about Which I admire. And you're not doing it to be a good person. You're doing it because that's the way you see the world. Absolutely. You're not saying, Oh, I'm going to do this good person thing. You're doing it because that's how you see things and that's how you see yourself.

And you want these young women to see you that way so they can see themselves that way.

Yeah, totally. I would hope that, as I said, I am a good person to those who meet me in real life. But I didn't decide I wanted to make art to be a role model.

No, that's not where it comes from.

It can never come from there. I should not be put in that category at all. I don't want that I don't think it is an artist's responsibility to be a role model. I think opinions on that have changed as the relationship between fan and artist gets closer and closer and closer, but I don't really subscribe to that belief personally. I think it's like, if I can show people that fucking up sometimes is actually fine because we're all human and we all probably do it, even if we claim to not on the internet where we're being our best, most curated versions of ourselves. I think that's good because I would have loved to have seen that when I was younger. But I also am probably going to mess up at that at some point, too. It's like, that's just how it goes.

I don't want to give anything away, but the end of your movie, not to be careful here because I don't want to give it away, but it's the end of your movie is you having to make a choice, a big choice, about how you're going to present yourself on stage. I'm not going to say what happens, but people are pressuring you to put on these, the outfits we're used to seeing when someone does a world tour or a massive arena show, something, and you're putting on these dresses and things that really aren't you, but people are saying, No, you got to wear this because this is the next step. I was thinking, was there any point where you were looking at any of those dresses thinking, This is actually, I really like this.

I think maybe you were. Well, okay. There's a green one you wear that I must have. Oh, gosh. Because I've got a killer ass. Oh, God. Well, come on, Sona. You've seen it.

I have it. I can't find it.

I showed you that shit. I can't find it. I have no ass, famously. My ass was lost in a terrible accident years ago.

I got to say no, there wasn't. But there was actually the opposite experience where I'm not sure if I'm Is this something I can say or not? But we'll-We can always take it out if you can't say it. We'll find out. But there is this moment, actually, where I'm on the way to making the decision at the end of the film, where I'm trying to decide what show am I doing? I'm in a rehearsal for this more traditional show. On the day that we shot it, I'm wearing this this outfit that is not something I've ever worn before. It is green. I know the outfit very well. Green hair, green eye shadow. I'm up on wires. When we were shooting it, I was up on wires up and down for most part of two days. But before I went up, my creative director in real life came over to me and she was like, Are you okay? I was like, Yeah, I think so. She was You know you look really, really lame right now. I was like, Really? She was like, Yeah. Then I cried. Then she cried. And she was like, You've never looked so uncool.

I was like, Oh, my God. And then the director came over and was like, You ready to shoot? I was like, I fucking hate you.

That's great.

And he was like, But this This is the point.

But you know what's really funny? I honestly don't think we're giving anything away because if I heard this, I'd be like, I have to see this movie, and it doesn't give anything away because we won't tell you what happens. But it's a moment in the movie where you're getting some pressure to do the more traditional thing.

We always see pop artists up on wires. It's just spend more time up in the air than on the ground. But what really made me feel is a visual that people have to see, which is they hoist you up and you're in the midair and you've got your outfit on and your boots and you're holding the microphone and you're just singing but not doing any.

You're doing the exact same thing you would be doing. You're not moving. It's not Cirque de Soleil. It's if they took a tax lawyer and hoisted them in the air and told them, Now do your work. You were just there saying, Well, if I were... That really made me laugh. There's so much stuff like that in the film.

You know what I will say from shooting that scene? I got to say, I have so much respect for artists who do go up on wires because it is really hard. It's really hard to look good and poised and effortless. It's so hard. I really was at points It's all got cut from the film. I was really trying to look good, and I looked like Sugarplum fairy. It's really hard to look serene and gorgeous. It's so impossible. So respect to Pink and whoever who's doing all the flips and stuff. It's very hardcore.

No, it's amazing. Yeah, it's cool. That people can do it and sing and move. Yeah, impossible. We should do the podcast sometime when it's the three of us up on wire, and then you can be our guests and we'll hoist you up.

Then we'll tell you you look lame.

You can wear that green dress.

You'll tell us to fuck off. It'll be a nice show.

Charlie, I am delighted, absolutely delighted to meet you. Just It's so funny because the thing that keeps inspiring me is people that are much younger than me who are oftentimes in an art form that maybe I don't understand that they're doing something completely different. But I see the same things over and over again, which is really hard working, true to themselves, disciplined, honest, and brave. I look at all those qualities, and time and time again in history, those people do really great things, and I get inspired. I'm this geezer who's like, That's cool. I'm really glad you're out there. I'm really glad that you're doing your work and doing it so beautifully. Love the film, and please come back sometime because it's been an absolute joy talking to you.

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I had a great time. Oh, good.

Thank you. All right. We'll talk about this tax thing. Yes, perfect.

I think you're wasting your time in music. No, come on. She's good with numbers. I know she is.

Okay, it's time for review the reviewers. This is where I go to Apple Podcasts. I pull out one of them, just flowing sea of five-star reviews. Beautiful. For this podcast. We reviewed it, and then we reviewed the review.

I'd like to review you right now.

You said review.

The audience won't know what I'm talking about. I will have cut that out.

I don't think so. I think you're going to keep it in because you're going to know it's-I'll cut that out, but I'm going to keep this part in. Yeah, better comedy. I would keep it in. It's good.

I'm going to cut all this out. Okay. All right, this is from Kalebraia86. Okay. Sibling Rivalry, five stars. Love, love, love the podcast. When you, Sona and Matt, have an infectious sibling rivalry, what do you think day-to-day life would have been like if you three were actually siblings and grew up together in the same house?

Oh, wow.

Well, I don't think we even have to suppose what this would be because we know. We We know. I mean, to pick any period of history, pick any situation anywhere in the world, the three of us living in a house day to day as siblings, would be exactly what you think it is.

Even as kids, would it be any worse or better?

I think it would be- Let's adjust the ages so you're like two years older than me and I'm two years older than Sona. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

So there's just a two-year gap between each of us.

Am I the oldest? Yeah. Yeah, still the oldest. Okay. Well, I mean, my brother Justin could speak this very well. I would be 24/7 bits.

I would recruit him in bits. I'd be recruiting both of you into my bits and making you participate against your will.

It would be a tough life to be born.

It would be tough.

Are we ourselves in this scenario? Yes. That I would pummel the two of you on a daily basis. What did I do to you? Just because it's like you're an easy target. Yes. You're just going to be like, I'm painting my figurines or whatever you're doing.

Yeah, he has his figurines. Yeah, he has famous architects of the early 20th century, and he's doing his little paintings of the figurines. Yeah, he would.

I'm just I'm going to kick him and I'm going to beat you up because I think that happened to me a lot, and it made me a much tougher person. My brother was bigger, and he beat me up a lot.

Did you beat him up?

I tried. I fought back. I think if I had weaker people, around me, I would beat them up. So I think I would just cumble with the two of you.

Danny was just stronger than you. And I think he was a real nerd. He carried a briefcase around as a kid.

I did not.

And I know that's you.

We just got to get the word out of that.

I literally know that's you.

No, I know this for a fact that she showed me. I did not carry a briefcase.

You told me you had a briefcase when you were in college.

You did have a briefcase. You said you did when you were doing.

You've told me on this podcast.

I know, but I was probably bullshitting. I did not have a briefcase.

My brother really wanted to work in finance for a really long time, and he had a briefcase.

Her brother Danny had a briefcase.

He said on this podcast that he had a briefcase. I don't know.

I can't remember.

I don't know that I did have a briefcase.

I forget every podcast we record.

I don't think that's true. I would be the first to admit I had a briefcase. No. I think you know what I had?

Is it that you really wanted a briefcase?

You've talked about a briefcase. No, what I said is that I really loved office supplies. I love the ideas of having a stamp. I love the ideas of having one of those pressy things that makes a little medallion on the paper.

An embosser.

An embosser. That's cool. No, I'm saying I know this is terrible, but I really wanted an intercom where I could go like, Hello, Louise. Get those memos out. I love that. My dream when I was a little kid was to be a mid-level Soviet bureaucrat. So your brother had a briefcase. You showed me a picture once when you're all little kids, and he's standing there. I think he's wearing one of your dad's suits. It's too big, and he's holding a briefcase.

Yeah, he does. He used to hold a briefcase. But then he got older, and then he became a jock, and he was a football player, and he was huge. He'd have to work out all the time. We would fight over the remote or whatever and things like that. I got really tough because of him. I feel like With you two as my siblings, I just beat you up all the time.

Let's keep in mind, in this scenario, I'm two years older than you. I'm your older brother.

You're four years older than me, and I would still beat you up.

You still beat me up? Yeah. You know what? That scans.

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, I think he would beat me up.

I'm taking abuse from both sides. You are.

First of all, I think you die after a year. I'm being honest. I think I open my veins in a warm bathtub.

I don't want to be living this life at all.

No, you open your veins in a bathtub, but we find you, bind you, and then beat you.

Because I'm incapacitated.

That's too good a way for you to go. Oh, my God. But no, people are looking for you, and then you're found in a bog. What's left of you? They find glasses floating on top of the water. I knew you'd be dead.

We'd kill you so fast.

No, you'd be gone. Then Sona and I, I think you would quickly realize this guy's going on to things. He's going to monetize these bits. You wouldn't want me dead because you'd know you can sponge off me the rest of your life as you do now.

I wouldn't want either of you dead. You're my siblings, right?

Yeah, you sure love us.

Yeah, I sure. But I'll fight you. That's how people show affection.

You know what? Even if we don't kill Gourly, he dies of the milk sickness. I know. He's very weak.

He dies I'm sorry.

You are. Yeah, you'd get the rheumatism. When you'd have braces, you'd have braces on your chest and your legs.

I did have braces on my legs.

I know. I shouldn't laugh. But you know those braces you had? Make them out of a cruder material, and that's what you would have in this scenario.

Wicker.

Yeah.

Okay. Then I do say, after you're gone, we do feel badly and we go visit your grave for a little while. Just a little bit. Then we move on because I'm a big deal.

I've faked my death just to get away from you guys, and I'm living You've happily, happily, anywhere, anywhere but here, right now in this time that I'm not even joking, we're out of this role-playing scenario.

It's like Tom Sawyer, Huck Finn. You're up in a tree, you faked your death, you're up in a tree listening to your own eulogy, but then you fall out of the tree and you're killed.

I fall right into the grave.

We roll you right into the grave we've already done. We're like, That works.

I think what happens is I'm a ghost. I'm a CIA thing. I had to fake my death. I got multiple I'm doing my own thing. I think we all know that's what's happening.

I think you die, you become a ghost, but then you're sickly as a ghost, which has never happened before. Other ghosts are like, That's not supposed to happen. Then you die as a ghost and become- I find a second level It become a more translucent ghost, and then you're still sick, and you can't... Because the pathogen keeps getting spread. Oh, my God. Then you're just a ghost that's wheezing and coughing and blowing your nose, as you are now all the time.

Oh, my Oh, my God.

Other ghosts are bullying you.

I think it would be fun. Do you think our parents would constantly... At dinners and stuff, they'd just... Would our parents leave us?

For good, yes. Right, that's what I mean.

I think the parents would move out.

They'll be like, We got to go get cigarettes. But then, again, they'd have that hint that that Konan guy seems like he's monetizing this bit thing. We better just keep in touch just to get some of that sweet scratch.

But when you were a kid, no one was like, he's going to monetize this. They were like- Luke knew. Did he? Oh, that's cool.

They were saying, No, he didn't. He had an abacus, and he was figuring out.

I think that what you do now, while you can monetize it now, back when you were a kid, it's concerning. Yeah. Right?

They're going to monetize this, and they're thinking, we need to institutionalize.

Yes, that's what I mean.

But some of our best artists have been institutionalized. Okay. I just made that up. I don't think that's true. I know.

I don't know what that is either.

Okay, well, I think we answered that question. That was review the reviewers.

Conan O'Brien needs a friend. With Conan O'Brien, Sonam of Cessian, and Matt Gourley. Produced by me, Matt Gourley. Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Jeff Ross, and nick Liao. Theme song by the White Stripes. Incidental Music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering and Mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brenda Burns. A Additional production support by Mars Melnick. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Brit Kohn. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Konan? Call the Team Coco Hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It, too, could be featured on a future episode. You can also get three free months of SiriusXm when you sign up at siriusxm. Com/konan. If you haven't already, please subscribe to Konan O'Brien Needs a Friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.