Transcript of South Beach Sessions - Judd Apatow

You're listening to DraftKings Network. You know, I always have a little voice in me that's saying, what should you be doing right now? There's something you're not doing. You're not fixing something or you're not punching something up. And, and it's a little bit of like a panicked voice. And so it's kind of hard to shut it off completely. to just have an open, clear head. And so that's what the therapy and all the psychedelics are for. Can you quiet the old voice that's like in a panic to not screw up?

I have rarely been happier to have a guest in front of me. What a creative force this man I really admire almost everything that you've done, and I don't mean to say that I don't admire things that you have done, but your resume is extraordinary.

Yeah.

Judd Apatow, writer, producer, director. Here's a partial list. You tell me what you think is missing here that I have erred in not mentioning. So you have had a hand in writing, producing, or directing The Ben Stiller Show, which is ahead of its time, The Larry Sanders Show, well ahead of its time, Cable Guy, Liar Liar, Bruce Almighty, Happy Gilmore, The Wedding Singer, Freaks and Geeks, both Anchorman, Men, 40-Year-Old Virgin, Knocked Up, Superbad, Forgetting Sarah Marshall, You Don't Mess with Zohan, Walk Hard, Bridesmaids, Girls on HBO, Funny People, Pineapple Express. What am I missing?

It's too long already. It's way too long. And some of those I just like, you know, was a helpful punch-up friend. You know, things like Happy Gilmore and Liar Liar, you know, which was always the most fun thing ever because you're not responsible, but you can come in and try to pitch some jokes that may Help for friends.

But that, when I, when I give you that list of things, is there any one or another? Because the pivot you've taken now where you're doing documentaries on some of your comedic idols, I think is just so wonderful for a number of reasons, at least in part because you used your grief with Garry Shandling to sort of turn it into this thing. Did you have any idea that that's where you were headed with some of this? Because you're now making documentaries on some comedy greats.

Well, the documentary started with a documentary about the Avett Brothers, who are an amazing kind of Americana band. Rick Rubin one day said to me, you should do something with them. I'm about to make a record with them. And he said, life is better when you're around them because they're just like really like great people. And it turned out to be true. So for years we followed the Avett Brothers around. No one was paying us to do it. I just was following this instinct to listen to— to Rick, and then we were able to set it up on HBO. And that led to doing a 30 for 30 about Dwight Gooden and Darryl Strawberry, who I watched when I was in high school when they first came up. And then sadly, when Gary passed, I made all these little videos for his memorial. I became kind of obsessed with producing his memorial because I just didn't really know what to do with myself. So I, I made all these little 10-minute documentaries to show his life and his career. And then at some point, I thought, oh, you could put all these together and tell people who Garry really was.

But that became somewhat of an obsessive project because I just, you know, I loved Garry so much. He was so there for me and kind of gave me every opportunity of my career, just about, and taught me everything that— I think I dealt with grief by trying to tell the world who he was because I think he wasn't sure how to do that. Who he was, you know, down deep.

What a gift, though. So you're saying when you didn't know what you were to do with yourself, you mean, like, in the grieving process of losing your friend?

Absolutely. But also in the moment, you don't really even know that's what you're doing. You're just in a fever dream. And suddenly you're in this project, and you're working something out because it just left such a giant hole. Not just for me, for everybody, because Garry was the person who You know, loved to hang out, write jokes with anybody, read your script, give you notes. And even now, we all feel it like, oh yeah, no one replaced Garry. There's not a guy like that around, both personally and, you know, being a genius.

The Zen Diaries of Garry Shandling was just beautiful, though. Like, it was just whatever you set out to do there, you did it. Like, what a touching, moving tribute to a friend of yours to have the grief become that.

Yeah, it almost felt like Gary, you know, Gary-driven. Because I think in some way Gary was trying to figure out how to talk about his spirituality and what he had learned in his life, and he hadn't quite figured out how to do it. So he was playing around with some really experimental stand-up about it. And he had thought about making a TV show based on all his journals, because he had journals since the '70s. And so I thought, well, I think this is what Gary wanted to do. So it felt very collaborative, you know, with him because there were these journals and he would write in the journals every lesson he was learning about comedy as he learned it. You know, there was a page where he says, you know, the key is, you know, to be yourself. No one cares about the jokes. They care about you. It's like Elvis. You don't go to hear the song. You go to hear Elvis. And every day he'd have a little thought like that. There was one about don't be competitive. And it's literally like, don't care what, you know, Jay Leno and Jerry Seinfeld and Robin Williams are doing.

Stay in your own lane and just focus on what you do. You know, it was a constant talking to himself.

Don't be competitive in comedy. Good luck with that, right? Like all of the, all of the people in comedy end up being that. And it's a bit of a poison, I would say.

Well, they're all trying to get on Letterman or The Tonight Show and get these opportunities. And, you know, obviously he was in a class of kind of the masters. And, uh, but it, it, it did seem to work because he always would carve his own path. You know, he'd have a show on HBO when no one else did things like that, or on Showtime. And, and it didn't seem like he was always in the same business as everybody else.

Is there anything you've made that has made you cry, uh, in the making of it like that did?

Oh my God. I'm a big crier. I can, I can cry. You know, I could cry watching the same thing over and over again. You know, a lot of the documentary is about, you know, his brother, you know, passing when he was a little kid, and how his family didn't really talk about it. And he was left alone to deal with it, and how that affected him, it affected his relationships. And, you know, one day we found in a journal, he wrote a letter to his brother, thanking him for having such an impact on him. on him and saying, you know, I'll see you on the side, I love you. And I don't know if he wrote it for therapy, you know, because sometimes you do things like that to work through things, but it was so beautiful. And when we found it, I thought, oh, so we're not wrong in our assumption that this really defined, you know, how he developed his personality. And every time we would work on that sequence, I would cry. It's just so open. and beautiful and kind of everything life, you know, should be.

The Norm Macdonald documentary, also beautiful. You thought to yourself while making— I guess I'll ask the question this way. What do you like best about it?

Yes, that's gonna be on in October, Norm: The Tale of Norm Macdonald. And I think that's a really interesting documentary because what we were trying to follow was how Norm presented himself to the world. Norm, you know, was kind of a mysterious character. You know, he had this really unique sense of humor. People didn't really know him personally that well. And I think on purpose, you know, he didn't share that much in his stand-up act. He didn't really tell you the truth about what he was feeling about, you know, his life and the experiences he was having. So, we made this choice to do a documentary where we didn't interview anybody. Because whenever anyone talks about Norm, the stories are kind of crazy and it makes him a caricature. And even I had, you know, stories where, you know, when I was helping out on— I know I was visiting Billy Madison set and we were all like, hey, let's go get dinner. And we called Norm, hey, Norm, we're gonna go get dinner. And we all walked down to his room with Sandler and knocked on his door. And we kind of hear ruffling inside, like there's someone in there, but no one's answering the door.

We're knocking, Norm, we hear you in there. There's no answer. And then finally, like, we left. Whatever, Norm. And then like hours later when we saw him, we're like, Norm, we heard you in there. And he just went, heh heh heh. And that's all you got. So we thought, why not? look at everything he said publicly, his jokes, his sketches, you know, he wrote a novel, and some of the interviews were very deep near the end of his life, and just create this, you know, collage of his life and let people make of it what they will.

But what did you like best about it? The reason I asked the question is because I've followed Norm Macdonald. I've done— the way that you set it up, I've done the Norm Macdonald rabbit hole. And the thing that I love best about what you did is, oh, was the Was the whole story a joke? Was the whole thing a joke? Like, you don't know anything that's true. He's a mystery. And so what a great tribute to an artist that at the end, the whole story's a bit of a joke and you don't know what's true.

Yeah, I mean, he definitely had a bit of a Bob Dylan-esque instinct that when people asked you questions, sometimes you told the truth, sometimes you didn't. And sometimes the interviews were really interesting because he would open up. and talk about religion and philosophy, and sometimes people thought he was joking. And so there were all these— I remember there was a great interview from Hawaii, like morning radio, and Norm was just really telling the truth and opening up, and they couldn't even handle it emotionally. It threw them that he went to this serious place. And so, yeah, it is one of those documentaries where you decide what you make of it. Like, We don't know what's true, but hopefully it brings you to a higher truth. And for me, the higher truth was he was just a unicorn, fascinating, unique person who loved his family and loved to make people laugh. He was a little bit of a, you know, a rascal, you know, like he, he got a kick out of, you know, how he presented himself. But the most important thing to him was he loved making people laugh and finding ways to do it in a style that he respected.

You love making people laugh as well. Without giving up too much information, just a wildly efficient way that you took out in this documentary both Kevin Spacey and the executive Don Ohlmeyer. Just, you did it in a really spectacular way. When along in the process did you decide, I'm not gonna do any interviews? Was that from the very beginning, or did you start that— because that's an unusual way to make a documentary.

Um, I— that was kind of an early thought, you know, because it really was, do you hound all his friends and try to create some sort of reality of who he was through all of those people? But the truth was, he didn't necessarily open up to many of those people. And it seemed much more valuable to do a deep dive of him talking. Because I don't know if he went as deep, you know, with people who would be able to— express it. And even when he passed, you know, no, he didn't tell anybody he was sick. Only like 3 or 4 people knew. So even when he was on the road with, you know, Adam and David Spade, they didn't know that he was sick. And so he, you know, his life in a way was really bifurcated because he was going through something and he didn't want people to—

Sick for a long time too.

Like 9 years. And then he had cancer when he was very young in his early 20s and got over it. So, it is somebody who looked at life through the lens of being right on the edge of losing his life for a lot of his life. And I don't know exactly how that informed his dark sense of humor or unique sense of humor. But definitely, he was experiencing something that was much more profound than everyone knew. You know, I think a lot of people might have been like, you know, what's with Norm? And then there's a lot going on with Norm, and he would share it, but not through the lens of, here's what's happening to me. So, there were these amazing jokes about having cancer, but he always applied them to other people, you know.

You also have done a documentary on Maria Bamford. When you decide to do this pivot, because you've done it on Bob Newhart and Don Rickles, you've done an assortment of legends, do you have a favorite among the documentaries?

I mean, obviously, the Garry Shandling documentary will always mean the most to me because it's so personal. I'm just happy when I don't mess them up because I love these people so much. And so I feel like these documentaries, in a lot of ways, will be the portal through which people go to find their work. You might watch the Maria Bamford documentary before you've seen all of her specials. And I think in 50 years, When people go, you know, who was Mel Brooks? They might watch the documentary, then watch Blazing Saddles. So, I feel like some responsibility to frame the whole thing accurately and in a way that would make you want to know what the art is.

But how'd you make the decision to pivot that way? Because it's not what you were doing before, and all of a sudden you're a documentarian. And if people look at your previous work, it's a wonderful evolution of your creativity, but if they look at your previous work, they wouldn't really have the context for what it is that you're making now.

Yeah, well, I started out in somewhat of a historian mode as a kid because I was so interested in comedy that I started a high school radio station where I interviewed comedians. So—

You got better guests as a high school kid than I get for this show, and I'm not meaning to insult you when I say that. It was amazing to see the high school— like, the high school Judd Apatow. How the hell are you getting some of the biggest names in comedy to do your high school school show?

I think I just lied to all the bookers, and, you know, I wouldn't really clarify that it was a high school radio station. So if you called Los Angeles and said, you know, I'm trying to get an interview with John Candy, I'm from WKWC Radio on Long Island. I also think that no one wanted to talk to these people, you know. So if you think about the early '80s, before the internet, before any of this, if you were a publicist and you represented Garry Shandling and someone called and said, can I do an interview for the radio with him. They were probably happy to have gotten them an interview so they could look like they're doing their job. And none of them sniffed out what it was really for. And then I would show up with this giant, like, you know, tape recorder from the AV squad. And they would always have a look like, oh, it's one of these. But then they would always be really nice. And then, you know, I would grill them until they kicked me out. Like, how do you write a joke? How do you— Write a movie.

This is what I'm going to do now, by the way. You're going to have to tell me to stop asking you questions because I'm going to do the same thing. Where does your ambition come from?

I'm not sure exactly. I mean, I was, you know, from Long Island, grew up on Abbott and Costello and Marx Brothers movies in the afternoon and on Saturdays. It certainly was the moment when SNL was created. Monty Python, Second City, Steve Martin, Richard Pryor, like All of that was happening right in the '70s when I was growing up, and I was just endlessly fascinated by that and by talk shows like Mike Douglas and Dinah Shore and Merv Griffin. I would watch it endlessly, and I think in my head somewhere, I just liked that world. I was like, I think I'm supposed to be in that world. How do you get in that world? Where is that? Who are these people? And my grandfather was a jazz producer who also produced like the first Janis Joplin album and You know, they were friends with people like Steve Lawrence and Edie Gourmet. And I think they knew Bob Newhart a little bit. And, and, but their best friend was this woman, Totie Fields, who was kind of a Joan Rivers type figure in the '60s and '70s. Really, really funny. And they loved her so much that we would go see her and she was beloved.

And she would go on stage and she had her leg amputated because she had diabetes and she'd They'd bring her on in a golf cart, and then she would make jokes about having no leg. And I think on some level I thought, oh, if she's the coolest person in the world, you know, this odd lady with one leg, and people are giving her standing ovations, I think I'd like to be in a place where that's possible. I didn't think that consciously, but I think when I look back at it, I think that must have had a profound effect on me just seeing her.

How old were you?

Probably starting— well, they talked about her from the moment I was born, and they always talked about her like she was the coolest person in the world. There's a really funny clip of her on YouTube where she's on the Mike Douglas Show, and the other guest is Gene Simmons from KISS, and he's in the full KISS outfit. It's like 1977. And she, you know, she's just like looking at him kind of laughing, and he's like, I'm from another planet. And And then she goes, uh, wouldn't it be weird if you— we, we found out you were just a nice Jewish boy? And she just kind of busts him. And he's like, yeah, yeah. He's like, yeah, wouldn't that be weird? And she— and then at some point somebody goes, how did you know? And she just goes, 'cause of the hook. Because she's Jewish. And she just busts him on TV. It's so funny. Um, so, and I think maybe like You know, you're a kid, my parents are getting divorced, like, the house is kind of chaotic. And comedians had answers for what's going on in the world, why do people treat each other a certain way?

So I think some of the questions I want answered about reality, I was getting from comedians, not in the house as much.

And you're what age though? And where are you gonna go when you say, I want to get into this world? With what? With stand-up in mind? With what in mind?

Well, it started with a quiet dream to get into stand-up. My mom, when my parents got divorced, got a job seating people at a comedy club. And so I would go to all the shows and see people like Jay Leno and Paul Provenza. And then at some point I asked to interview people. And then at another point I said, can I be a dishwasher at the comedy club? So I got a job as a dishwasher and then a busboy. And at that point, people like Eddie Murphy were still coming in doing stand-up, and Rosie O'Donnell when she first started. And so I was at the center of this little club on Long Island, East Side Comedy Club, and all these people like Bob Nelson and Rob Bartlett and Robert Klein would, would come in, and I would watch and never tell people I wanted to do it. Just scared to death of that because I was so little. It seemed really embarrassing. But I got to watch people like over and over. And, and then one day I worked up the courage to go on their open mic night and it went okay enough to be willing to go on a bunch to try to see if I could figure out how to do it.

And that was in high school.

If your mother doesn't work that summer at that comedy club, does it end up going the same for you? You're still going to find a way in? It's—

that's a good question. I mean, Maybe, you know, it's— I mean, that was the road taken, uh, and very aggressively so. But I also think I had a feeling as a kid that I couldn't really rely on adults to succeed, that I needed to figure it out myself. So in a very unhealthy way, I thought, you got to figure out how to get a job. And so I had that mindset at like 15. Like, if you study this and study this and study this, You'll be ahead of everybody in understanding how this world works. And if you start doing stand-up at 17, if it takes you 10 years to establish yourself, you'll still be 27. So in a very neurotic way, I was pacing myself.

And, uh, before that, because the family comes from music, is music the idea, or is something creative the idea, or is it always I'm going toward laughs? from as early as you can remember?

I mean, I was very influenced by musicians. You know, Loudon Wainwright was somebody that I really looked up to because his songs were funny, you know, and dramatic. And also, there was a feeling in our house that Art— that my grandfather was just a very cool guy. You know, that he was doing Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker, people like that, and that he had carved his own path. You know, that in the beginning of the creation of the music business, He would, with his own money, hire people like Charlie Parker and just give them money to go in a recording studio and record a song. And then he would print it and go to the record stores and sell it like individually. And that's how he got in the business. And then he started his own label and worked for other labels. But I thought, oh, you have to be a hustler to do this. This isn't the normal ladder. You have to come up with your own way in.

What has the adult you figured out about what the 12-year-old still wears from the divorce and the chaos of the household?

Well, it's always just like a type of hypervigilance that is currently unnecessary. You know, so you're always trying to get rid of, you know, that energy that was in a panic to save itself. you know, you still have it. And then you go, oh, this is just distracting from life. You know, I always have a little voice in me that's saying, what should you be doing right now? There's something you're not doing. You're not fixing something or you're not punching something up. And it's a little bit of like a panicked voice. And so it's kind of hard to shut it off completely, to just have an open, clear head. And so that's what the therapy and all the psychedelics are for. Can you quiet the old voice that's like, In a panic to not screw up.

And it comes from the 12-year-old confused by the divorce or the—

The 12-year-old is like, I better be on my game. You know, I better figure this out. Or, you know, I don't have anyone to catch me.

What are the specifics that you remember if I ask you 11-year-old Judd? What's going on? What's going on with 11-year-old Judd? What's going on in the house?

Well, I mean, I don't think anything like so unique. from anybody else's house other than it was an interesting period in the late '70s, early '80s with just how people dealt with divorce. Because I think people were just very willing to let their kids be in the center of it. So now everybody kind of consciously uncouples and they have therapy to figure out how not to mess up their kids. But in the '70s, they would just scream at each other in the middle of the house. And so you knew what was going on and you knew what all the fights were I knew my parents were going to get divorced weeks before they told me because I could just hear it through the walls. And so I think there was something traumatizing about that. And the fact that no one knew how to talk to the kids about it. Like, you know, the story I always tell is, you know, my dad's a very sweet man, but he didn't really know how to communicate about any of it. So one day I was in the house and I see a book. I lived with my dad.

And it said, you know, Growing Up Divorced. And I looked at it and I was like, that's interesting. There's a couple of things that seem to make me understand a little bit of what was going on. But I never talked to him about it, never finished the book, just read like, you know, a couple of chapters. And then like 4 or 5 years ago, I said to my dad, you know, you never like asked me how I was doing. Like, you never really— I didn't go to therapy. You didn't. And he's like, I know I helped you out. I left that book out for you. On the coffee table. And I'm like, you left that book out? Yeah, I put it on the coffee table. Grown Up Divorced. And I'm like, yeah, but you never asked me if I read it. Like, you didn't know if I read it. Well, it moves. It moves over to the other side of the coffee table. And that, and that was like the communication level.

Just very male.

Yeah, at the house, you know. So my mom was just pissed that my dad wasn't really, you know, getting deep into it. And so, you know, you wind up with your friends trying to figure out your parents. So you'd have your, you know, your friends are all— their parents are all getting divorced, and you would just share the stories and try to go, what the fuck is going on with these people? And it made all of us very on top of our game of we have to be responsible and be able to be employed.

Do you think if they had somehow stayed together happily that you wouldn't have been an anxious person?

I'm sure there was some genetic anxiousness there to go. And, you know, you know, they were anxious people. So that was going to happen anyway. And so, you know, anxiety is a weird thing, because it's so destructive, but it's also your fuel. And it keeps you going. So, you know, I'm always having these conversations, you know, with my kids, like, well, you're— you could look at things like you're anxious, or you could look at things like you're excited. And that it's okay to be anxious. But I've certainly had periods where My anxiety is kind of chemically off the charts and has to be dealt with, uh, because I'm just so obsessed with getting something right. Or I can feel that there are forces that are going to make it harder to get it right, you know, because a lot of times these are big collaborations. And what if you disagree with someone in the collaboration about your intentions?

Uh, the panic attacks, right? You had panic attacks.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I got really— I was with Adam Sandler in Vancouver, and he was shooting Happy Gilmore, and I was helping out with some revisions, and I just had a crazy panic attack. But, you know, I didn't know what it was, so I just thought, oh, I smoke pot, I'm too high, and that's why my heart is racing and I'm sweating and freaking out. And then it just kept happening a few times, and then— I flew to a wedding and kind of in a panic attack the whole time and not knowing what it was, just thinking I'm going crazy. And so they're there, the bridesmaids get up at the wedding and they start singing Ryan Adams' All for Love. And my brain melted and I had the worst panic attack and I had to leave the wedding. I watched it through a little hole in the door. And And then I had to, you know, figure out what it was. Then when someone said, oh, that's a panic attack and here's what you do to calm that down, you know, I was okay. I still don't like to sit in the middle of a row at a Broadway show because I always have this feeling like, what if I have to get up in the middle of Death of a Salesman and I cause chaos in the room?

You know, so there's some things that are remnants. Aisle seats is a key.

How did you get the tools to solve that?

Uh, we're just that, you know, just like therapy. And then when people explain it to you, it's, it's, it's not the hardest thing to deal with. It's just the opposite of what you would think. You would think you, you want to push to not have these thoughts, but the way panic attack goes away is you allow yourself to fully feel the thoughts and kind of have some sort of separation where you're observing it, and then it kind comes down. But if you try not to have the thoughts, it's like smashing a mirror and it just gets way worse.

What is your relationship with all that now beyond, hey kids, it can also be fuel, this is a part of me? And what is your relationship with anxiety now?

I think it's a never-ending journey of how do you reduce it? And so, you know, there was a period where I really thought, what— who am I under this anxiety? Like, who would I be if I didn't have any? Like, that's how intense it can be.

Like, oh, like it's a part of you. Like, you're saying this is a part of who I am. I'm never gonna totally necessarily solve it. I just have to learn to live with it.

Like, it's like, even what kind of a human would I be if it didn't exist? Is there a part of me that's completely different underneath it that's being, you know, being swallowed up? And, and I think That's something that, you know, I've done kind of some psychedelics, and that's usually what it's about, is like, can you let go of this kind of hyper-concern and just be present and, you know, let go of all of that? Or let it be there, but go, okay, you're over here, sit down. I see you. You're fine. Thanks for your help, anxiety, but I'm okay. You know, and so we could be side by side.

Right.

We don't have to be at war with each other, but the part of me that's not anxious can kind of take the wheel a little more.

There's real learning and wisdom in that, though I don't know if there's much serenity in it.

Yeah, that's— I mean, that's the point, is how many moments of serenity do you have during the day, and how much, how much can you drop, drop it? And it's— I feel like a lot better these days, uh, you know, than I did before. You know, I think there's some wisdom that comes with Having been through a lot of stuff and thinking— I mean, I'm a real, you know, pop psychology addict. So I feel like in the last few years I found some ideas that make it easier for me to process all of this.

I would imagine though, that if you were not obsessive compulsive about however it is that you make these things, you feel like they wouldn't be as good. Yeah.

I mean, To me, the stress doesn't come from the making. The stress comes from getting someone to allow me to make something, right? Trying to sell something or get it set up with people who get it and are supportive. You know, stress comes from, you know, the idea that, you know, you're making something and someone's going to pull the plug, or you're making something and, you know, someone's going to have, you know, ideas that they can enforce that you think will ruin it. And, you know, to me, making something wrong is the thing that gives me anxiety. It's not even if it's successful. It's just that if— can I get to the end of it and be proud of it and get through the whole system?

Of the things you make, what would you assign as a percentage to the things that you get to the end of proud of?

I mean, most of the time I feel like I gave it my best effort and I don't feel like anybody I think I do get through that process, you know, most of the time and feel like I pulled it off. It's just, was that a difficult journey or was it easy? You know, a lot of times, you know, the collaborators are really fun and the whole thing is easy. The Mel Brooks thing, the whole thing is easy. HBO people are so great to deal with. You know, my partner, Michael Bonfiglio, who directs with me, Mel was great. You know, he didn't even want to see it until it was done. He's like, I don't want to see it till you're done and I can't force you to change it. And that's pretty rare for someone to say that.

It's weird though, because what you're talking about, uh, it sounds like you've done a great deal of learning, but if the greatest issue is like, is this going to get screwed up, uh, in the selling or anything else, you've arrived at a time in Hollywood where everything is just garbage. All around you in terms of selling stuff. So you've arrived at the pinnacle of success and still have to worry about selling shit.

Yeah. And it's harder to reach people. It's hard to reach people because there's just so much stuff. And how do you— how do you become part of a cultural conversation when just— they're just dropping new things all the time? So if I can make something, you know, that's on HBO Max and you go, oh, every time I turn it on, They're kind of telling people to watch it because that's what you want. Because you can make things and they disappear down the algorithm and they stop pointing them out, and you go, oh, no one would ever know this exists. You know, how do I have things on streamers that I feel like people haven't seen much?

Go ahead and promote them. Go ahead and tell— go ahead and tell people what they need to find. What's the list of things that they need to find because you're upset that they haven't seen them yet?

Well, we've produced the movie Pee-wee's Big Holiday, which is on Netflix, which is really funny. I directed a movie called The Bubble, which is on Netflix. That's kind of about, uh, people trying to make a movie during COVID And, you know, things like that. Uh, Undeclared, which isn't on a streamer, although you could watch it on, uh, I think they're all on YouTube, uh, because we didn't get all the music cleared, so we can't get a legal, uh, streaming. And so, yeah, and, and even for things that aren't mine, every once in a while I'll go Does anyone know that, uh, that's, uh, that's out there still? Or do they think it disappeared? And sometimes they take it off, all of them, for no real reason. And you go, oh, that'll never be seen again. If they just go, yeah, we don't want it on our platform and we own it. Because I never thought about that, that I could make something for a platform and they could just decide to never let people see it ever again. And I have no control over that.

What represents your greatest heartbreak in terms of things that you've made? Because you've, you've, you've made some pilots and stuff with some major stars that never see the light of day.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we made the fun— the one that we always talk about is called North Hollywood. And right when Curb Your Enthusiasm started, we thought, well, we want to do a show with a script, but with a lot of improv. And so—

Who was in that?

It was Amy Poehler. And Jason Segel and Kevin Hart were the 3 leads, but also January Jones was in it and Judge Reinhold, and Adam McKay had a really funny part in it.

And no one's— and it just never made it. No one's seen it.

No one has seen it. It's pretty scrappy, but it certainly showed the charisma of these people. Like everything that they did that was successful, there's a reflection of that in the pilot. We just did it for ABC, and right in the middle of shooting it, someone said, yeah, ABC doesn't want to do edgy things right now. They want to go back to like the Mork and Mindy, Laverne and Shirley vibe. So while we're shooting it, we're like, oh, we're dead. And no one watched it and said, well, we don't want to do it, but we should make something with this Amy Poehler, this Kevin Hart. Uh, like, we didn't even get those calls. Like, we recognize, you know, These are stars of the future. Uh, so that's always a heartbreaker, but, but, but we did have fun doing it.

Is that the top of your list on heartbreaks?

I think so, because it didn't air. Like when you make something that you like and you go, oh, no one will ever see this. You know, that's always rough. I mean, you know, there are heartbreakers that we couldn't do a second season of Freaks and Geeks or Undeclared, you know, or The Ben Stiller Show. Those are all one-season shows that we were really happy with. That went away. So that's always a bummer because you're like, oh, I think we're doing good work. And then you just have to stop.

What's at the top of your list if you had to just choose one on fun making it?

On the experience of making it? I think we had a lot of fun making Knocked Up just because everyone was in it. And it really was a way to say, here's everybody that we think is really funny and should be making their own things. And so you know, having just watched it the other day for the first time in 20 years, I was like, wow, look at all these people just on their game, just young and hungry and hilarious. And it really captures like a moment of who they were and their level of passion and craziness. Like, and it's all in the movie. You know, it was like— I mean, it's a weird comparison, but it's like when you see the Beatles in like 1960s 5, and they're like 24 years old, and they're just filled with piss and vinegar, and they're going hard, and they're ambitious. And, and so that's a fun one because it's all in the movie. You could feel it.

How'd that happen that you watched that again?

I had to update it for 4K. So I never really watch them again, not consciously. I just, I kind of just don't. And I had to watch This Is 40 and Knocked Up to, to update them to 4K so that there's better transfers. So it was the first time I watched it where I didn't remember the jokes because it had been 20 years. So I remembered a few things I see on like Instagram, you know, when little clips come up, but there were whole hunks that as they came up, I was laughing because I didn't know what the next joke was.

I would imagine that your process is such that by the time that you're finished with it, you're finished with it. Like you're tired of it. You don't want to see it again.

Yeah, well, you're also at a place like you locked and you want to feel like it was great, but you're so worried that you screwed something up that you enjoy like, okay, I guess I'm done and, and I'll just send it out into the world and, and see how it does. And then you see it at a couple of premieres and then you, then you're just thinking, okay, now I have to do something different. So I don't want to think about that too much because I'm trying to think of a new road. And so you wind up not watching it.

What film or project took you the longest from beginning to end?

The longest? I mean, one of the ones that took the longest was Superbad, just in the sense that Seth and Evan Goldberg, you know, they started writing it when they were in high school or junior high school even. And They were doing revisions and we were all doing table reads and we just couldn't get anyone to make it for a long time because it was unknowns. It was kids talking filthy. It was some stuff that wasn't happening in the culture. And they had a great vision for why they thought it would be great. It was the movie that they wished someone would make. And the story we always tell is the, you know, we couldn't get it made. So we thought, let's add another producer who has more power than me. And we brought on this producer, and he was really into it. And then one day we find out he's been named the head of Paramount, and we're like, oh, we're definitely gonna get to make this movie now. And then the first thing he did as the head of Paramount was to say he wasn't gonna make Superbad. And so then it took, you know, a couple more years, and, you know, after 40-Year-Old Virgin did well and Anchorman did well, suddenly, you know, Amy Pascal was open to take that kind of swing.

I know it's difficult because there are so many projects, but when I ask you if you had to choose one that you're just proudest of, of everything it is that you have made, where you feel just the personal pride of true enriching fulfillment, what would you choose?

I'd have to say probably Freaks and Geeks because it just seems to touch people so deeply. You know, Paul Feig, you know, had this great vision, and then everybody spilled their guts into it. And I just think it just so moves people, and it's still so funny, and it seems to be kind of ageless. And, you know, it was a big collaboration guided by Paul, who was very specific about what he thought it was about. And, and then the actors and actresses were so amazing that you just felt like, oh, something kind of magical is happening. This is like a thing. And then they basically were indicating they were going to cancel us almost the entire time. So we took every idea we had for 5 years of a show and just kind of said, I think we need to do all the best ones now. And then we also got very bold because we were angry we were going to get canceled. So we did some really intense experimental type of episodes, which came out great because we were kind of doing them as a fuck you. Oh, you're going to cancel us? Well, then we're going to do this kind of episode, which you normally would never let us do.

And so in a weird way, it's good because it was always on the chopping block. And a lot of people say to me they watch it with their kids. Like, it's like a way people bond with their kids when they turn 12, 13 years old to talk about things. and to enjoy something together. So it's probably that.

Is there anything in your career that shows that you have an eye for talent better than that particular show, that you can spot things or comedic talents before they become what they would become?

I, you know, I think, you know, everyone who was picking the cast there, Alison Jones, the casting director, and Paul Feig and Jake Kasdan, our directing producer, like, You know, there were people that they were pushing, you know, and all I was saying was like, yeah, I agree, you know, with that instinct. You know, people like Busy Philipps came in for the lead, and then Paul was like, I think that she's more appropriate to this other idea of this girl who kind of terrorizes everybody. You know, so there was all this shuffling going on. But the main instinct I had was, why don't we cast it with the best people, and then have Paul rewrite the script based on who they are. Let's not force them to just become the character. Let's use who they are. And so it can change a little bit. And Paul was totally up for that. And I think that's why we were able to get these unique people. And we did open call auditions. We would, you know, read 1,500 people in a city. And And just be open that it could be anyone. And people without agents was a big thing because we thought, oh, I think the kids would get this.

A lot of them wouldn't even have agents. And we found some, some people that way.

When you were roommates with Adam Sandler and palling around with Jim Carrey, did you spend a lot of time doubting whether you were funny enough to do this?

I think I didn't think I was the unique performer that they were, because I was a comedy fan and I knew what they were doing. So just as a nerd, I would watch them and go, oh, this is way better than what I'm doing. And I didn't even have a sense of like, I could evolve to the point where I could be on their level as a performer or a star, because I could feel the charisma. You know, in those years when you would walk into a room and no one knew who Adam was, The room still would slowly gravitate towards him. Like, you could feel just his charisma in life and how funny he was and charming. And I was just like a weird, neurotic, uncomfortable person on this side of the room. And so it didn't take long for me to go, yeah, I don't think I'm going to do that. I'm not sure what I'm going to do. And they were always very encouraging of me. So I was writing for them and You know, we were all creatively doing things together, and they believed in me, which meant a lot. I just wasn't sure what I would do.

And then at some point I met Ben Stiller, and, you know, we created The Ben Stiller Show after years of writing jokes for people like Roseanne and Tom and people like that.

That show was so good. When you mention weird, neurotic, and uncomfortable, I think— I don't know at all, but I think Ben Stiller and Jim Carrey are both of those things. Like, and I don't say it obviously in any way pejoratively. I just think that, that they suffer in some of the same ways that you do.

Yeah. And so you kind of find each other, you know, you just have kind of some sort of radar for people who have similar energies. And Ben had just done The Ben Stiller Show on MTV, which was really groundbreaking. And then he was looking to do, do it somewhere else. And so, you know, we sold it to HBO, but then HBO sold it instantly to Fox. So, this, like, small sketch show suddenly was on network TV. And I had never even worked on staff on a show before. And so, Ben and I were really inventing the wheel as we were going along. And Ben had a real, you know, vision for what he wanted to do in terms of cinematic comedy because, you know, we had seen all these great filmic sketches from people like Albert Brooks and SCTV. And we thought, oh, we could do like SCTV if they had a bigger budget. And you could really make it look like the movie you're parodying. And then, you know, we had people on like Bob Odenkirk and David Cross and Dinos Diamantopoulos, and they were bringing a completely different type of comedy into the show.

But again, you know, it was a unique show. It was up against 60 Minutes. It wasn't on late night. It was on at, you know, 7 o'clock.

You know how great it was, though. Even looking back on it, my guess is it holds up. Like, I don't know that you probably haven't seen it in a million years. Yeah, you're aware of how great it was.

Yeah, a lot of it really does hold up. And but that's that thing, when you're like really young, you kind of have crazy energy to go for it. And, you know, we would work till 2 o'clock in the morning and get up at 6 in the morning. And you have no life and you have no family, no girlfriend. You're just obsessively doing this show. Even today I go, that was the hardest thing I ever worked on. It was just so many hours, so difficult to do.

Felt pressurized too, because you feel like you're arriving at your dreams, right? All of you.

Yeah, they're like, this is like the big moment. But also, we're not doing it like Saturday Night Live. Every sketch is its own movie, so we have to create the production for every sketch. I think later when they did shows like Key& Peele, they had figured out you know, the cameras and how you prep for this and how you staff for this. But we didn't know how to do it because no one had really done it in that way, like that before. And so we were like, what do we do? Do we come up with a sketch and shoot 5 on the same day and spread them among the episodes? I mean, some of the sketches were really elaborate. We would do like a parody of Oliver Stonelands, You know, amusement park. And sometimes we'd spend the budget for an entire episode on one sketch, like one, like, 7-minute sketch, and then the rest of the show had to cost $1.

I look at some of the people that you work with and don't know anything. Perhaps you can offer me some guidance here, whether it's Jim Carrey or Garry Shandling or Ben Stiller. And I can see from a distance how they might struggle with Happy. Never satisfied, always pushing, need to be better, nothing is good enough. And it's sort of how they become great.

Yeah.

But what is success really if you're not going to enjoy it? If happy becomes a struggle?

Well, I think that's the dance, you know, that you— sometimes it goes better than other times. I think sometimes I feel like when things are going badly, people feel like such a terrible humiliation is coming. Because while you make a movie, the whole time, you know, at some point it's just coming out. So we have to make it great, because if it sucks, then we have to go promote our shit movie and tell people it's good and get the bad reviews but act like we like it. Like, like, everything about making a bad movie sucks. And so— and it's also humiliating because You know, when you're trying to be funny and you're not funny, that looks bad. It's like when you make a really ambitious drama, when you fail, it looks bad. That's why I think a lot of TV now is, uh, you know, they call it like mid. It's basically like if you shoot for a 6 and you get a 5 or a 6, you know, people could tolerate it. And it's like, it's kind of mediocre, maybe a little campy, and— but, you know, whatever, they catch the killer at the end, and, you know, it's like, it's fine.

But when you're trying to do— when you're really going for something, you could fail spectacularly. And so that's what I think all the nervous energy is about. But it's also gonna be just insanely fun. I mean, when we made The Cable Guy, we could not have been laughing harder the whole time at what I mean, you fell in love there, right? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. That's where I met my wife, Leslie Mann. And so, yes, we had a great time, but also a stressful time. You know, it's a real grab bag if you can get through a shoot where you go, that was a fun shoot. You know, it's rare because, you know, things come up that panic you. I just finished a movie I shot that I wrote with Glen Powell called The Comeback King. And it's a comedy where he plays a country music star. And we shot in Savannah, and the whole shoot was fun. And it kind of threw me that the entire shoot was fun because he's great and he's hilarious and a very, very nice person and a great collaborator. And all the actors and actresses and the crew, it just worked.

And that made me uncomfortable because I wasn't used to being happy. You're like, I think that went well. This feels weird.

It doesn't feel like confidence? I would think if you keep stacking successes on top of each other and arrive at the point where you're just enjoying something, I would assume you'd trust it. You don't trust it?

I really tried to. Like, it was the first time I'm like, you're allowed to be happy. It's going well. Because I think your unhappiness makes you feel like you're on it. You know, like the nervous energy is like, okay. I'm not going to let anything slip by. But sometimes that's the thing preventing you from being funny, is it's like you're not in open flow. You know, you're still, what's going on? What could get screwed up? And you kind of need both in a way. But I did have a very good time. And probably because Glenn is such a positive person that he pulled me more into his vibe than what my natural vibe would be.

Is there anything that stands out for you when you talk about the humiliation of having to wander around and do interviews for something and feel like you're lying about having enjoyed it? Is there anything that stands out in terms of— without— I don't mean to disparage any of the work you've done, but I'm talking about a feeling of the drudgery of making something, finishing it, being unsatisfied with it, and now having to do the grind of selling it.

No, I feel pretty good that I don't really have things where I Where I go, if I bumped into that in the middle of the night on TV, I'd be upset that it's there. You know, I don't have many of those.

That's an accomplishment.

And that is an accomplishment. Like, like if you go, oh, someone's watching that now and you're happy for them, where you could have a project and go, oh God, I feel bad for the person who thinks that's going to be good because that's not going to be good.

I'm sorry I betrayed that person with my work.

I feel like all the movies are good enough to really be enjoyed on an airplane. You know, that's good enough. That's a pretty good bar. So yeah, I don't really feel that as much as, you know, there are certain movies you just wish more people knew about or certain movies you wish were widely seen. But the funny part is sometimes the movies that don't open at all, in 10 years, they're everyone's favorite. And so, you know, a movie like Popstar that the Lonely Island guys made, it didn't really open. But now it's like, I don't think you could find a young person who hasn't seen it. And so it just hits in another format, and suddenly it is, you know, a beloved movie. And so that's how I look at it now, that eventually everyone will see it. So it has to be good, because even if the theatrical doesn't work, at some point everyone's going to catch up with it.

Is there anything you've made that you thought was bad and ended up being very well received in a way that surprised you? Or not bad but didn't quite meet your standard?

Uh, I don't think so. That hasn't really happened. You know, I think, uh, I mean, we really grind pretty hard till we feel like we're—

Well, I would assume your standard's good enough. I would assume that if it ends up meeting your standard, that at this point you've got the barometer, your standard is the correct— it's good enough. Like, it's gonna be something— it's hard to meet— the hardest standard to meet for you is yours.

Yeah, and there are movies that, like, I like, but that other people really like. And so just like anything else, you have the ones that you would watch over and over again, but it doesn't mean it's not someone else's favorite movie.

Universally, do you hear from people most about one of them? Like, is there one among that just everybody wants to ask you about more than all the others?

I mean, the one that people talk to me about the most is This Is 40. There's something about it. I think it just goes very deep. It's very personal. And I think everyone turns 40— a lot of people watch it when they turn 40, a lot of people rewatch it when they turn 40. And there's something about it that really captures private moments that people don't think anyone else knows about, but they're in the movie that they relate to. And that, surprisingly, because it wasn't the biggest one, is the one that most people will mention.

Because they connect with it, right?

Yeah.

And when you were making that, how did— what are your memories of the making of that that feel the best?

Well, yeah, I think you look back later and you go, why did I make it? Because it's— it is a turning 40 nervous breakdown movie. And that was really the pitch, like a man and a woman turn 40 around the same time. So, it becomes a moment of assessment. And then they have, like, a terrible fight, and they completely melt down in the face of all their problems when they're turning 40. And that's what we tried to go— is to go deep. And going deep means we're observing our friends. The other actors are pitching ideas from their lives. We're pitching ideas from our lives. So, it's a big soup of all of that. But it's— But it's going all the way to, this is my life. Am I happy? You know, you're assessing how your relationship is going. Why are we driving each other crazy? Can we figure out how not to drive each other crazy? And it's a lot based on that moment when your kids are like in middle school and they're really unhappy. And you're trying to figure out, how do I get my kids to be happy? But my wife and I are fighting over what to do.

And we're also fighting about what are the priorities of our life, how much time goes into work, how much time goes into the kids, how much time goes into making our marriage work. And there's— and then there's just so much stress. And if you haven't gotten a handle on all your communication skills, it just keeps blowing up. And so I think that's what people relate to is, yeah, I'm going through this and I'm drowning from it. And so that feels good to know you're not the only one drowning.

Leslie is extraordinary in that movie.

Oh, yeah, I think so. Absolutely.

Is there anything that you watch of hers that you think that's the best thing she's done?

Well, she just made a movie my daughter directed called Poetic License, which comes out next year. And it stars her and Cooper Hoffman and Andrew Barth Feldman.

What a great sentence, my daughter directed. I mean, that's extraordinary.

And it's a really sweet, Funny movie about a mom having a little bit of a meltdown because her kid's gonna leave soon. And she takes a poetry class at a college where her husband teaches and becomes friends with 2 21-year-old boys. And they tell each other their problems. And it's about her kind of getting in a really unique friendship with 2 kind of strange boys. And then everything kind of comes unglued. And it's very funny. It's very sweet because it's like Maude's observations and interpretations of Leslie's love for her and her love for Leslie. So, it's very intimate and— but really funny. You know, they're all really funny, but Leslie especially is. It's very, very funny.

Can you tell me about falling in love with her? Was it on the set of The Cable Guy that that happened?

Or— Well, I met Leslie, and I certainly had a moment of like, I can't believe Mrs. Apatow just walked into this room. But then the stalking begins, you know? Like, I was always a long-game stalker, you know? I'm the guy that just shows up at the party, and most people would be kind of freaked out and, uh, and run away, as they should. Uh, and so one day we went to a Laker game, and I think in the middle of the game, Leslie thought, I think this is a date. That's how bad I was as a single person. You wouldn't even know you're on a date with me. And then I think she thought, oh, maybe this is the kind of person I should go out with. And, you know, then we had, you know, an amazing time making the movie. And, and, you know, very quickly we're married and And, you know, having this life kind of young, you know, we had kids young, and then we, you know, put our kids in the movies just because we wanted to have them around. It wasn't like, I want my kids to be actors. It was, I don't want to talk to other people's kids.

I'd rather have our kids around. And, you know, so there was a bunch of years where we were all collaborating too, which was a really special thing.

How did you know Mrs. Apatow had walked into the room?

You know, It's almost like if life is a simulation, you just know this is the part of the video game where Mrs. Apatow walks in the room just instantly. But the funny part about it is it happened. I was, you know, just, you know, reading at the auditions, like 100 people, and I'm just the one reading. Jim Carrey's not there. And we want someone who can read the cable guy that makes it. sound like the cable guy. So I'm doing like an impression of Jim Carrey talking with this lisp. And I'm reading, you know, with J.Lo and Heather Locklear, and like all these people come in, you know, for a month or two. So the moment we met is on the internet. Like you can watch the audition. And it's her being a brilliant actress and me talking like the nerdy cable guy.

You're terrible.

But it is funny to go like, that's the first time we talked, and you can watch it on TikTok.

Uh, but you knew right away, and then the courtship is a bit of a stalking, and you're ending up at a Laker game because you're just coworkers, and it was something fun to do.

Yeah, just friends. Yeah. And, uh, but she's so hilarious and, you know, wise and smart, and, you know, it, it was just like, oh, could this person ever love me as much as I'm kind of falling instantly. And, and here we are 30 years later.

Yeah, almost 30 years later. When you get to giving advice about how to do something correctly like this for 30 years, how to fall in love and keep the love alive, what kind of advice would you be giving?

About it all? I mean, I think it's like you just want the other person to to win. You know, you want— both of you want the other person to succeed, right? You're— so you're trying to— somebody like a therapist said once, you know, you don't want to be 2 people shooting at each other in the foxhole. You're supposed to be fighting everybody else. So, you know, I think a lot of it is, you know, figuring out all the communication skills. And someone said to me, people don't change unless You know, you can't want people to change for you. You have to want people to grow and change because, you know, they'll be happy. And if you want— if you're doing it for your own comfort or to make your life easier, that's, that's not how it works. So if 2 people want the best for each other, the best growth for each other, and have compassion for sometimes how hard it is if you come from you know, difficult backgrounds, then you really can get somewhere. But, you know, all relationships put up all your problems. It's just mirrors to all the stuff that both people don't want to deal with.

And then it comes up and you have to be happy that it came up and not go, oh no, you have to go like, okay, this is good. Now I can deal with this.

What other than that has she taught you about love?

I think a lot of it is about being present. Uh, I think, you know, some of my trauma is just, you know, can make me very like scattered, you know, just like, just what's going on? Is everything okay? And, you know, I think that she's much more of a very present, connected, loving person. So like for me, it's kind of tune in and drop the world and just like get there. It's been something that, you know, has been, uh, uh, you know, not the easiest lesson for me just based on my nervous system, you know. But I feel like I've made a lot of progress in recent years with that. And I think the hard part is that the things that are wrong with you are the things that make your career go well. And so it's hard to be like a manic, obsessive weirdo at work, and it's working at work, and to walk into the house and completely shut it off and become present, mellow, loving, centered guy, you know. Because it's just the And you're literally vibrating from the chemicals of the day. And so just learning how to transition or, or how to take your day less seriously is a lot of hard work.

She understands and accepts your nervous system?

Well, I don't know if it's so much— I mean, she certainly understands it. I don't think either of us look at it in terms of accepting it. I think we go, what, what can we do to Calm it down? What, you know, how do you have more minutes a day where you feel at ease?

How many minutes a day do you have that you feel at ease?

I mean, more than I used to. Maybe a lot more than I used to. I think the last few years I've had kind of a breakthrough in that aspect.

How so? Because you do sound centered and balanced. You sound like you have the support that you need. You sound like you have the introspection and the self-awareness. awareness of watching your mind be both dangerous and a blessing.

Yeah, I think, you know, sad to say, I think like psychedelics helped a lot because on some level it allows you to observe it. So, you know, it—

Peacefully too, right?

Generally. Yeah. Like in a journey, you could like split your mind and you're kind of watching how your brain functions. And so there's a part of you that is whatever, your higher self, that isn't neurotic at all. It's like your pure self, and it's observing all the little behaviors that were your self-defense mechanisms that helped you survive in the world. And then you can go, all right, well, that's just— in a weird way, it's a programming and a habit. And I don't have to think it's me, that habit. That's just a habit. And for each one, you might have an approach to calming it down because now you could— I could feel it coming. Like if I'm on a phone call and there's bad news coming and it's like, oh, you're over budget. And, you know, part of your brain goes, oh no, what am I going to have to cut? Am I going to have to ruin the movie to deal with this problem? And, and, you know, When you're feeling better, you go, we're going to figure it out. Getting stressed doesn't help this. So let's just not suffer today and let's get more information and see what we can do.

But in the old days, it would be like, we're fucked. You know, just you lose your mind and just your scared part just, you know, takes the wheel.

Psychedelics, observing it without judgment. It doesn't come with judgment, the observing of it, right?

Yeah.

When did you start with the psychedelics and why and how does— and how and how?

Maybe like 3 years ago. Um, you know, kind of slowly entered into it and always with the idea that it's like a form of therapy, not like a Grateful Dead concert. Um, 'cause I never did that. Maybe I should have since I was in high school and it would have made life easier. But, uh, Yeah, I did ayahuasca, and that was something I was very, very afraid to do.

I'm still afraid to do that because of the level of sickness, the purging. But everyone says though that I've talked to about it, that it really does a good job of killing all of your blind spots around your ego.

It really does. It was fascinating. I never tell anyone to do it because it's just so weird to do. And who knows, you don't want to be with the wrong person. I mean, I'm sure things can go wrong. But for me, I thought, oh, I'm kind of just stuck. I need to like blow the walls down a little bit. And it definitely did that in a lot of ways. And it was, I think, helpful just doing it because I was so afraid of letting go. Like people always say surrender. Oh, you need to just surrender. And it was the first time where, like, in my head I was like, okay, this is my battle to let go, to let go of this layer of hypervigilance that's never, never taken a vacation. And so just the fact that I did it was almost a sign to myself that I was standing up for myself. And so that alone helped a lot.

How did it come to be and why did it take until your mid-50s to decide to do that? I would think that it would be available to you At any point in the last—

I don't think I knew much about it. I just met some people, you know, that were talking about it. But I was also just so scared of it that I would never even want to learn about it, like, at all.

Fear's a motherfucker.

And then slowly some people did it that I trusted who talked about, you know, the effects. And then I thought, yeah, I'm— I don't feel great right now. I, I need to kind of do something that could have a larger change. And now since I started doing it a few years ago, I think people are much more informed about why it's working, that there's something about it that allows parts of your brain to communicate that normally don't. And you might get in a space where old traumas and memories can fade farther into the background and be replaced with something more positive. And so that's why I think it's growing as a movement, because a lot of people are doing it. And I'm sure there are people who have nightmares, but there's a lot of people who say, yeah, that felt like 10 years of therapy in one night. Like, I, I feel changed in a positive way by that.

Yeah, I had a therapist recommend ketamine treatments professionally. And it's because she's saying your brain chemistry here isn't helping you. You need, you need some assistance here because you've got some wiring here that's faulty.

And I started doing that. That's the first thing I did. And I was so scared, you know, because I'm not like a big drug person. Every time I smoke pot, I have a panic attack. And so the woman that was administering it, I was so scared I had to hold her hand. And then she put her other hand on my heart the entire time. And then that got me through it. And then the second time, I just held her hand. And then the third time I didn't have to. And then the fourth time it was like pleasant. And that made me get comfortable in the space of it to then try things out.

What did you find pleasant about it? Because what I felt, what it did for me is sort of, obviously you are sort of, have an absence of control and you're on a journey through your imagination. And to me, it felt like I could be dying. And it was okay, like, to have a comfort around the idea of mortality. And I just felt my wife's love in the middle of it being of such an extraordinary size that it just sort of comforted me. That's how I experienced it.

Yeah. Well, that sounds like a good one.

How was it for you?

I think it was— I'm trying to remember, like, what the feelings were on it. But I, you know, a lot of it was like forgiveness with my mom. You know, you know, that, that's where a lot of it, you know, went to, is my mom was very kind of like manic and, you know, love bombing you and then kind of yelling at you and just trying to please her, but she was somewhat unpleasable, but also kind of hilarious. And, you know, I had moments of feeling like— there's one moment where I thought of hugging my mom, and she had no neuroses at all, and neither did I. Like, where I just felt like our souls connected without all the shit that got attached. And so there would be these, you know, symbolic, you know, visuals of forgiveness, and that I felt like Held afterwards, because it's such a driver for your neuroses that to just feel like you clean it up, it's like when things happen, you don't get as jacked up because the root of it has been dealt with a little bit.

What a beautiful softening. What a gift to have that with your mother, to, to thaw whatever resentments you didn't even know were there in a way that has love and forgiveness in them. That's Amazing. That's an amazing gift.

Yeah, I had another one that was on a mushroom journey where, you know, I wasn't thinking about, like, you know, issues, what to talk about. And then suddenly I got this image that I'm reading Curious George, and I'm like 3. And it's hard to describe, but in it, I felt exactly like I was 3. And what it felt like to read a book and the way in your mind you're not just reading, you're in the book. Like, language disappears and you're just— it's like a dream. And I love those Curious George books. And that kind of rocked me because I'm like, oh my God, this is exactly how I felt at 3 years old. This experience.

Probably before the anxiety too, right?

Exactly.

At 3, you're just— it's just you're a child. You're with your mother.

She's great.

There are no edges to however it is that you experience her.

It's just pure joy. And so, yeah, so I'm in it with Curious George and the Man with the Big Yellow Hat, and I'm having this flashback to childhood happiness. And then I thought, who's reading me this book? Someone must be reading me this book. Oh, my mom must be reading me this book. Wait, my mom taught me how to read. And I haven't thought about that. And then I imagined myself sitting on her lap, and she's reading me Curious George. And I hadn't thought about that probably since it happened. And it was such a, you know, forgiving, appreciative visual that it just felt like I'd really healed a lot to just remember that, separate from all the stuff that got intense. Kind of that was my mom, like a 24-year-old woman with her little kid on the floor, like the pure loving time.

That's really cool.

Yeah, yeah, that was— that really stayed with me.

And were you changed after that? Because you're allowed to take out all of the thicket of barbed wire that is very human in your relationship with her and have it just Yeah, it definitely like made the hard stuff become much less emphasized.

And it was a real healing thing that it's hard to even explain. It just brings all the temperature down on your reactions to childhood stuff.

I want to do some rapid-fire stuff with you here at the end, if you don't mind. I love doing this with you. So thank you very much for doing it, because I really could keep you here about 7 hours. But I'm just gonna have you fill in the blank here. Your earliest memory is blank.

My earliest memory is playing with little dinosaurs and bouncing balloons in the air at like 2 or 3 years old and just like trying to hit them back up in the air before they fall. And I have very light images of like in the late '60s when I'm like 2 of the family playing the Beatles.

Your biggest influence is blank.

My biggest influence is probably Garry Shandling and Steve Martin.

You met Steve Martin early in your life, correct? And you were an asshole to him, correct?

Kind of, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an old story I always tell, but I just asked for his autograph at his house. Like, I walked up to his house, and like he should, he said, I don't sign autographs in my house. And I said, will you sign it in the street? And he said no. And I'm like, you know, 13, 12 years old. So I wrote him a letter saying, you wouldn't live in that house if I didn't buy all your records and go to all your movies. So if you don't send me an apology, I'm going to send your address to Homes of the Stars and you're going to have buses passing by 24 hours a day.

Right.

And then 6 months later, he sent me a book of cruel shoes. This is in 1980, 46 years ago. And, and in it he wrote, to Judd, I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was speaking to the Judd Apatow. And so it's just one of those great Stories that almost— you almost can't believe it happened. And then, you know, then, you know, I know him a little bit now, so it's a running gag.

The Larry Sanders Show, I mentioned that it's ahead of its time. If I want to watch something now these days, I will still turn it on because of how much it holds up. Was it fun doing that? Because when I watch Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee, where he's talking to Seinfeld, And they're both at the height of whatever it is making things in comedy is, they're both sort of lamenting the idea of, yeah, it's a real suffering and no one totally understands what a suffering these things are.

Well, I think it's a suffering because for both of them, they want it to be as great as it can be. They don't have a low bar. They're not— they're not mid. They're going for greatness. And so when you're making a show, you're shooting one episode, but you're also punching up the next week's So people are going, do you want to read next week's while you're trying to remember your lines for this week? And it's just too much work, I think, if you're a creator, showrunner, star. So it certainly had a lot of rough moments based on Garry exhaustion, which would lead to, you know, being cranky sometimes or hard to predict what he would like or not like. And I've always said the tricky part was He's a genius. So you get a staff of writers, we're not all geniuses like him. And then he's like, well, why wouldn't you write me a perfect script like a genius like I would write? And you're like, I don't think I'm as good as you. And so he's kind of mad at everyone for not being as good as him. That's basically it. And there'd be one or two people who kind of were, like Peter Tolan wrote for the show and he could do it.

And there were other people like that. But it's— I remember Steven Bochco said making TV is like putting trying to put £10 of shit in an 8-pound bag. Like, it just doesn't work. You don't have enough time. You don't— and so in the old days, you didn't really know how to prep and how long to take to write the scripts so that your shoot was easier. And because The Larry Sanders Show had a lot of guest stars, you know, Alec Baldwin would come on and Steven Wright, but they would also book the last second or cancel. So the show was always changing. in a way where it would need massive rewrites to adjust for all of these things. And so it was definitely stressful, but I had a blast because I got a kick out of everybody's stress. I wasn't responsible till the last season I was. And so I could just pitch jokes and try to fix things, but other people were melting down.

I sold you a bill of goods and them a bill of goods by saying I'd make this quick. And then all of a sudden, I'm going to ask you follow-up questions that make it less quick. But the last The last thing most recently that made you cry was blank.

The last thing that made me cry in art, you mean, in watching something? I mean, the last thing that made me cry when I heard that Glenn Hansard passed, who was an amazing singer-songwriter, artist who I had met a bunch of times, and I used his music in my movies, and he was just kind of a sweet, magical person. That's why there's so much material online of him. doing incredible things because he was the guy, you could be in a bar and someone would just hand him a guitar and he would just light up the bar. And he really was, you know, the type of person that if you spent any time with him, it would be one of the great stories of your life. Just a special person.

The poster in your childhood bedroom?

The main poster I had was, there was a Best Fishes Steve Martin poster where he had a fish in his white jacket. You know, I remember I had a Devo poster where all their heads are on the top of potatoes, and I had a lot of Marx Brothers stuff. And, you know, we had some Bob Seger. We had some Bob Seger up on the wall. You know, we, we loved our, uh, I'm trying to think if we had— did we have an Allman Brothers on the wall? We were big Paul McCartney and Wings people. We had a lot of Wings stuff, a lot of Back to the Egg.

The most annoying thing that Leslie would say, uh, you do is blank.

Um, you know, I have kind of a stemming OCD thing where like I will tap or flick with my toes, and as I watch TV, I'm kind of counting the syllables. And then I try to stop on an even, and then I just start up again. But my feet are always way in front of me or on the coffee table, so they're always in her eyeline. And so she's constantly saying, toes, and then I have to like hide my toes underneath a blanket. And yeah, we can't decide if it's conscious or unconscious or stemming or, or what.

Is it anxiety? Is there, is there an undercurrent of anxiety in there?

It could be a It's a self-soothing thing, like people tap and stuff. And it's something I used to do when I would watch TV as a kid, because I would sit and watch TV for like 5 hours, and I would just tap on the table. But then I would just count syllables.

Why are you counting syllables?

I don't know, but it must be something that calms me down but is irritating to anyone watching it.

What would you say is your biggest pet peeve?

My biggest pet peeve, something that drives me crazy? Is, um, that's a good question. I don't feel like I get driven too crazy. I, I like to be on time or early. Mike Birbiglia has a really funny bit about the battle to be on time or not on time, but that's something that we, we struggle with sometimes because I'm always like, why not get there 25 minutes early? I remember like we went early to a Wes Anderson premiere, and I thought the movie was at 8. So, you know, we got there like 7:20. No, I thought— yeah, but actually it was at 9 and we were an hour and 40 minutes early. You know, my dad's like that. If he has like a flight that's at 7, he gets to the airport at like 3:30 in the morning.

A person you're most in awe of?

In awe of? Lately, I mean, that changes all the time. But I mean, what Josh Johnson is doing, putting out these stand-up, you know, specials— I don't know if he calls them specials—

Every couple of days.

Yeah, like every few weeks. And they're great.

They're like really topical, timely, off of the news the news is providing.

But they're funny. And then it gets very personal. And it just shows some people's Brains work at a different speed, so he could just do that process. Like Lena Dunham used to be able to write an episode of Girls over the weekend, where it might take other people like a month, and they'd be good over the weekend. It would feel like she had worked on it for a few months and polished it. So definitely him. And, you know, there are certain people that are just so funny. Maria Bamford, who we did the documentary about, you know, I'm just always impressed at her stand-up and how deep she goes and how weird and Surreal. You know, that's, that's one of my favorites.

Do you have any other skills?

Uh, do I have any other real skills? I mean, I can't say that there's a lot of skills happening, uh, happening there.

I've just read you say that you're inadequate at everything except working really hard at this.

Yeah. I mean, like, I am a very— I'm I couldn't be a worse guitar player. I can't draw at all. I can't really cook. I, you know, I like sports, but I can never remember any of the stats or anyone's names. So I play tennis, but then my back goes out. So I don't know, maybe I don't have, have great other skills. I like to take a long walk. Is that a skill?

Do you have any irrational fears?

Irrational fears? I, I'm very nervous I won't die. You know, I'm very nervous about that.

You're not fearing death, you're fearing that you won't die?

Yeah, everyone's like, this is a simulation. And then my brain, you know, opened up from psychedelics. And I'm like, well, what if all the weird stuff is true? What if there is a heaven and hell? What if, what if the whole thing is different than we know and I don't get to end it?

I'm gonna give you a couple of your movies here and you tell me something that you think nobody knows about them, and then I will let you go. Okay, uh, Cable Guy.

Nobody knows, nobody knows that, uh, I was getting yelled at by the studio for going over budget the whole time. And we didn't even go that far over budget, but the head of production would just yell at me and just go, Judd, this isn't the Columbia Bank of Judd. And, and, and Ben would want to make things look better and say, I need a new helicopter pad. And then I'd have to try to fight the studio. And, uh, I don't know if I ever really recovered from the battle to get the money. Because when I make things, I never ask for more money. Like, I make sure it's enough because I hate going over budget. And that was the one time where we didn't even go over budget months, but we were treated like we went $100 million over budget off of almost nothing.

Knocked Up.

Uh, Knocked Up, people may not know that There's a moment in the movie where they call their gynecologist to say that Katherine Heigl's pregnant. And they tell them that the gynecologist isn't around. He went to a bar mitzvah in San Francisco. And that happened to us.

Wow.

Where we were sure the baby was coming. The doctor said, it is not coming. Clearly, her water had broken. And then we went home and then she's dilating. We called the office again and they went, oh, he's already gone. He went to the airport and just left us with no doctor.

Good times.

Yeah.

40-Year-Old Virgin.

40-Year-Old Virgin. I think people may not know that Steve Carell was the one who pitched the idea that they should wax him and wax him for real. 'Cause he thought that would be funny. But he said he had never been waxed before. But then later, when I looked at the scene, I saw that his chest hair was perfectly square, where like it would end at a certain part of his shoulder. And I thought, of course he's been waxing for years. Why did he lie to me and pretend he'd never been waxed before?

What a liar. What an asshole that guy is. Uh, funny people.

Funny People. Well, an interesting thing about Funny People was, you know, it was 2 ideas. I wanted to make a movie about being a mentor to an older comedian, and it wasn't really based on Shandling because Shandling was so giving. It was more like if it was Rodney Dangerfield or somebody, you know, who wasn't giving in that sense. So, I had that idea. And then I had this other idea based on a few people about people who get sick and get cancer. And then they seem to change their life. But as soon as the cancer goes away, all their old bad habits and instincts to, to, you know, just be egomaniacs come back. And then one day in the shower, I just thought, oh, maybe that's the same movie. And I could do that as one.

Uh, Pineapple Express.

Pineapple Express came out of me watching the Quentin Tarantino-written movie, Tony Scott directed it, called True Romance. And in it, Brad Pitt was on drugs and they storm— all the bad guys storm into his room and there's this really funny scene where they're just trying to deal with him to figure out how to find the other guy. And it really made me laugh. And I thought, I want to watch a movie that's just the Brad Pitt character. Like, if this movie turned into just the Brad Pitt character on the run from drug murderers, that would be a really funny movie. Like a Jerry Bruckheimer action Cheech and Chong movie. And so it all came from Brad Pitt.

He's an endless fountain of entertainment, of comedy, of content. He's got 2 documentaries coming out on Netflix here. The Norm Macdonald one premieres October 16th and the Maria Bamford story October 23rd. Thank you for the time and the generosity, sir.

Sure. Thank you.