Transcript of Messi vs. Yamal For The World Cup | Morally Abhorrent

Final episode of Morally Abhorrent. What a ride it has been. And before we look ahead to what seems like a preordained final between Spain and Argentina, between Lamine Yamal and Leo Messi, something that was handed down from heaven, a photo from 20 years ago becomes viral yet again. I want to rubberneck a little bit with our good friend Will Gavin. Co-host of The S-Word over in TalkSport. Will, you do a lot of covering of the NFL across the pond. That was some Buffalo Bills-ass behavior from England.

Couldn't have had me on after a win, Mike. Couldn't have had me on after we'd won a game. Nope. Had to wait until, as always with the mighty England, we, we go out in heartbreaking fashion. That's 8 times since we won the tournament we've gone out in the quarterfinals or later. Losing by a single goal. And you'd argue on many of those occasions when we were the better team, devastating stuff. Yeah, rubbernecking is definitely what you're doing. And I made the Buffalo Bills comparison on the S-word earlier today. Just, just sickening. Absolutely sickening.

The reason why the Bills are invoked is because you guys seemingly found— you found a way to lose. You always find ways to snag defeat from the jaws of victory. And a lot of the blame is going to Thomas Tuchel. Now, Tuchel was careful. I thought he was pretty thorough in his explanation post-match to why he deployed those tactics. He stopped short of throwing individual and collective players under the bus, but it was clear he thought in deploying the same kind of strategy that won him, won him a match in Azteca, he thought that the players individually could make up the difference. What was the single biggest issue that led to England blowing this match?

How long's this episode got? Because—

all right, give me the 3 biggest issues.

I can wax lyrical about this for a while. Listen, there were plenty of issues in terms of the players on the pitch. He's not wrong in those terms. Uh, in a half an hour stretch from when England scored to when Argentina equalized, we only completed 20 5 successful passes. There was a 20-minute stretch, or about an 18-minute stretch of that, where we completed just 2 successful passes, and that was John Stones and Jordan Pickford passing it between each other in our own box. So the players are not, you know, not culpable for this in any way, shape, or form. Of course they are not. But if you deploy tactics where you put 6 defenders on the field, where you play 5 at the back, where you take Anthony Gordon off and replace him with Azri Konsa, where you bring Nico O'Reilly on for Declan Rice, when you send that message to your players that We want to get entrenched, we want to sit back, we're going to give them space and we think we're going to be able to hold them off. But this isn't Mexico crossing from deep to a 35-year-old Raul Jiménez. Yes, it was the Azteca, but we were down to 10 men in that game.

Like, that was proper fire and brimstone, getting through it, crawling your way to the mountaintop. This was a situation where we had the upper hand in the game after 60 hard-fought minutes where it had been back and forth, where it had been physical, where we'd got down and dirty on their level to an extent, and we had come out on top, we just then shrunk. We had that big moment and we completely disappeared inside our shell. And this is what we did with Southgate. We lost €2 finals where we had leads. We lost a semi-final against Croatia where we had a lead. These are games of football that we could have gone on and won if we were bolder, if we were braver, and if the manager trusted in the quality of the players on the pitch. Thomas Tuchel is paid £5 million a year, £8 million with add-ons apparently from this World Cup. To come in and not be Gareth Southgate, to come in and make the bold decisions when they need to be made. And with 30 minutes left of that game, he ran scared. Cowardly is the word that's been used across talk sport today, and I find it very hard to disagree with it.

So it's one thing to park the bus and play defensive-minded to protect the lead, but I didn't understand— all 11 players were behind the ball and they were deep in their box. They gave the greatest attacking player, uh, probably ever immense space to build up a head of steam. And also, this is where I do think the individual efforts can be picked apart here, is you're operating in a tight space. How are you leaving Enzo Fernández that much space? I don't understand why everyone is retreating basically to the back line and letting the greatest player of all time pick them apart with his off foot, I might add.

I know you, you hear from Warren Barton a lot on TV out there. He's a regular feature on American coverage, but we had him on the show today and And he's absolutely right when he says you could take any goal and find the individual error, find the mistake, find the reason it was scored. And in that situation, you know, two players in, in Jed Spence, and there's one of them not both making the same run, not one going to the ball and one blocking off the cross, was a clear mistake. Esri Konsa and John Stones not being tight to Lautaro Martinez, who by the way is not a big man by any stretch of the imagination, was undoubtedly a mistake. I mean Let's be honest, I love Elliott Anderson. £116 million of player should not be distracted by Messi when he's already marked by two men instead of closing Enzo Fernández down. All of that is true and all of those players deserve a knock on them for it. But the fact is, is there was just no outball. There was no outlet. There was never anything beyond just lump the ball upfield and hope.

There was never— Jude Bellingham was dead on his feet. Harry Kane was out on his feet. Morgan Rodgers was out on his feet. And you're telling me that you couldn't bring on Bukayo Saka? You couldn't bring on Marcus Rashford? You couldn't bring on these players with real quality. Just one occasion, get the ball forward, have them pick it up, put a little bit of pressure on them. We pressed so brilliantly for 60 minutes, we were in Argentina's face, and then we completely dropped off entirely. And it just— he came out, I don't know, I haven't heard the TV comments from him if I'm going to be honest with you, because I was so angry last night I just couldn't actually bring myself to go back and watch it. But I've heard everything he said to TalkSport, and he is completely unapologetic in his approach. And he says, well, if I'd thrown on 3 strikers, then you'd have been still saying the same thing about me. We ended this game with Dan Burn playing up front receiving crosses from a center-back in Esri Konsa. This is madness. A center-back at right wing crossing to a center-back up front when you've got some real quality there available to you.

I just think if we'd gone and we'd lost this game 3-0 and they'd been hands down a better team than us, it would hurt, but I would feel a lot better about the approach we'd had to the game this morning. Instead, we just went out there and we gave up in that last 30 minutes and we just gave them everything. And unfortunately, because they've got a brilliant player in Leo Messi— and you've got to give praise, right? Scaloni made brilliant substitutions himself. A great decision in starting Simeone, who wore that, that left-hand side down for us. And then bringing on Rodrigo de Paul, bringing on obviously the goalscorer, Lautaro Martinez. Like, those were great decisions. He made front-foot decisions which went and won his team the game. Thomas Tuchel, whilst you could knock Gareth Southgate for never making decisions, Thomas Tuchel made wrong decisions. And unfortunately, on this occasion, that's cost him massively.

So Dan, our host, Le Batard, he has very little time for intangible things, but I was trying to explain to him, no, England gave out because of something that was very quantifiable. They had 12% possession after Anthony Gordon scored. They were quantifiably more tired. This wasn't a thing about will. This was England. And Will, as you know, in this game, you are more prone to mistakes when you are that fatigued. I thought that the path that they had to take in Azteca, the wild variance in environment and altitudes, temperatures, the swing from Azteca to Miami Stadium. I was there in that, in that building. I actually thought they caught a break because the sun wasn't shining, but it was swampy. And let me tell you, I am of the belief that Harry Kane is never going to be the same again. I saw a player quite literally leave it all out there. And outside of one long ball, Harry Kane was pretty invisible there. I think if we can pinpoint this to one mistake, one key mistake was when you have a team that has been pressing your ass the way that Argentina was, you need to bring on a player with take-on ability.

And to not put Saka in, to not put Rashford, who would have been my choice, I think ultimately that had a domino effect that ended up tiring out England, that led to the mistakes in marking, that led to what What is the most egregious part about that entire match was Enzo fired off a warning shot and it did not get addressed afterwards. Like, what? Where is the panic? Where is the panic from everybody there? This cannot happen again. They wait. They just kept repeating the same mistakes. They were so desperate for that match to end. They were so dog tired by the end. If I could say it was one thing, it was not putting on. A creative attacker that had take-on ability to do something about that press. They just played right into Argentina's hand, who looked composed.

I, I would also have brought on potentially Ollie Watkins as well. And whilst replacing Harry Kane is, is always going to bring question marks, you know, in the same way that when Norway took off Erling Haaland at halftime of extra— I mean, that's because he knew Dan Burn was coming on, so he's running scared, right? But yeah, other than that, I can still, I can still enjoy our wins, right? Even though we lost in such horrible fashion. Just players who can get in behind. They have two fullbacks who cannot defend. They had two center halfs who were both on yellow cards, and then they replaced one of them with a 38-year-old.

Yeah.

You don't think that if we're running at those players, we don't have a chance?

What are you doing?

I don't understand it. All right. So this, this is where it's most frustrating, because as someone that has done work in the UK and well familiar with your plight and your story, the fact that you guys are essentially the Buffalo Bills, I thought this time was going to be different. I put a lot of stock in that victory at Azteca, and for 60 minutes it looked like a prophecy was being fulfilled. You, you had taken all the kicks to the shins. The American referee letting you play, it became a very South American style game. You score, I thought, my God, it's actually playing out. They have been fortified by all these emotional experiences. The DR-Congo comeback, the experience at Azteca, having to come back in a swamp one goal down against Norway. I thought all those things would lead up to finally the mental fortitude for England to get past the weight of the badge and get past the boogeyman in Argentina. And then the most English shit happened ever. So where does the state of the nation land right now? Everyone's pissed at Tuchel. No one wants to see him back. Where do you go from here?

Listen, it's very difficult for us to turn around and suddenly be— oh no, you're showing it to me. Come on, guys. This angle is so damning of both O'Reilly and Jed Spence, by the way. What a ball that is. But how on earth the smallest man on the field is getting to that ball ahead of everyone else.

It's a shame for Spence. I thought Spence had a, a really great game in that first half especially. I thought he was fantastic.

And when he won that tackle on when they counter-attacked against us, uh, we pressed them straight off the goal, we had a half opportunity. When he ran back and made that tackle, I thought, that's it, that is the kick up the ass we need. That is the proverbial belt to ass that we needed to go, right, let's not forget this team are a threat. But we did do that. The way we reacted to it was to completely go into our shell and hide, and was to completely just go out with a whimper. Going forward, listen, there's no way the FA are going to sack Thomas Tuchel. His contract is too big. They cannot afford it. They believe that with a home Euros in 2 years' time, he can rebuild this team and we could win it at home. And look, maybe we do. But like I said, I have— I've experienced every tournament that we've gone through from really my first one I remember is '90. I don't— I've not— I was only 2 years old in '86 for the Hand of God. So, you know, that's not really a memory for me, but I've seen it enough, obviously.

And I just go through— I mentioned 8 different World Cup quarterfinals and semi-finals that we've got. We've lost by a single goal, going out of the Euros to Portugal, losing to Iceland. Like, we are just a team who mentally is not there. Mentally, they do not have that winning ability. They will never be a, yeah, a team that finds a way out of a hole in those situations for some reason. And I think we've either got to go and win a tournament comfortable to instill that winning mentality or we're gonna have to find the right manager to do it. And I thought that was Thomas Tuchel. I literally— you'll see the clip from the show today— I bought earlier in the tournament a Keep Calm and Trust Tuchel t-shirt that I ripped up on the show today because I just could not believe I'd so invested my time in him. And when you talk about the mentality, right, I think the Americans will enjoy this. And again, I've said this on our show today, so maybe people will see it on social media. I think it's time to retire Three Lions. I think the rest of the world— you think the—

you think football's coming home is the problem?

The rest of the world don't get that it's a joke. They don't get that it's self-deprecating. They don't get that we're taking the piss out of ourselves. And for us, it's— we are taking the most important, like, the opportunity, the chance that, that every— when we are in the most key moments and we're going, yeah, we're probably going to lose this, aren't we? We're accepting that we're going to lose because we always do. If I don't hear It's Coming Home again until we actually finally win a tournament, which I really hope happens in my lifetime at some point, I'm starting to run out years at this point, then I would be a happy, happy man.

So one last example of rubbernecking here before I let you go and bring in our good friend Tom Bogert from The Athletic.

I just saw Tom pop up on the Zoom, by the way, and I know he's enjoying my pain.

Yeah, Tom, you want to drink up some of these tears here? Like, I mean, there is, you know, we've been mansplaining the sport for a long time from you chaps. So it's great to see.

I actually did have a little present for you, actually. I'm going to have to unplug my headphones to do this. I realized I'm wearing my Adidas. One second. This is just a little t-shirt I wore for you guys. Underneath my shirt. Oh, not soccer, baby. Yeah, football, not soccer.

I'm so sure about that anymore.

In the old USA '94 logo.

I hope you'll be able to—

not so sure about that. So here's, here's my last rubbernecking question for you, Will. Yeah, you're the Buffalo Bills. You have the one star, but previous disappointing runs that didn't end with a championship, they went deep and they make movies about those teams. So there's a made-for-television movie with Gareth Southgate, right? Either those teams—

it was, it was a stage play here in London. Yeah. Like, what are they doing?

Yeah. But, but those teams are beloved, right? And this was supposed to be a means to an end. It was all supposed to be parts of a story that had a happy ending. You had an iconic performance that will ring eternal once we get some of the emotion away from what we're feeling right now. That performance in Azteca will be pointed at for generations to come, I think, for English fans. But we can't see that right now. All I'm seeing All I'm seeing right now is universal disappointment and hatred. And I don't think it's a little thing that Thomas Tuchel is not an Englishman. He's a German. And people approach this with already some preconceived notions. He doesn't have what Southgate had going for him. How will this English national team be remembered in World Cup 2026? Be remembered by the English?

I think you're absolutely right in that when I look back on my footballing memories as an England fan, I think about the Spain win at Euro '96. I think about the Netherlands win, in fact, at Euro '96. As much as well. I do. I will look back on that night at the Azteca with real genuine fondness. Like, that is something that was a great performance. The Croatia win, I know it was only the first group stage, but that was one of the best times I've actually seen England perform in that second half. Like, one of our best ever performances. As I'm sure, you know, the USMNT will look back at that Paraguay game and that Australia game and revel in it despite the disappointing way that they ended up going out. There will be positivity about it. I think I think the legacy of it is going to be foretold in— they're not going to get rid of Tuchel. I truly believe that. They just can't afford to, and he's not going to walk away from that contract. So it's all going to be about what the legacy is in 2 years' time when we host a home Euros for the first time.

It's all over UK and Ireland Euros, so it's not just England, but the final will be at Wembley. I imagine we'll play a majority of our games there as well. That will be the legacy of this tournament because people will fondly remember Southgate's years, after the years in the wilderness, after the Wayne Rooney years, through losing to Iceland, through the Portugal games, all of that— England fell apart over that period of time and were just— there was no unity, there was no togetherness, there was no— and, and Southgate brought all of that, right? He just was tactically naive when he got to the big games, and that's why he lost them. I really believe that's why he lost to Italy. I really believe that's why he lost to Spain. I really believe that's why he lost to Croatia. He just didn't have that that extra gear to go. Thomas Tuchel was brought in to be that guy. He's messed up this time and messed up bad. A lot of people don't want him here anymore. If we get to a final of the Euros, if we win the Euros at home, I think people will look at this tournament as a stepping stone towards that.

If he loses that tournament as well, this will be seen as 4 years wasted.

All right, Will, thank you so much. You've done a tremendous job with our good friend Master Tesfatsion on TalkSport. The S-word, it's available everywhere. Everybody say goodbye to Willie's going home. He's going home. He's going home. Tom, my buddy, my pal, let us turn the page unless you want to rubberneck some too and have any takeaways from what we saw yesterday. In fact, you cover MLS. MLS's greatest player ever had quite the moment, and Messi wasn't bad either on the heels of that Rodrigo De Paul performance. I mean, great day for Inter Miami. I was stunned at how good Rodrigo de Paul was. So legacy-wise, I think Messi has bought himself so much with this knockout round performance. I mean, yeah, he won the World Cup 4 years ago.

I—

dude, it is nuts. He's much better than he was 4 years ago when it comes to the, the big-time matches, the big-time performances, his output in these, in these knockout stages. Just treetop view on Argentina and Messi and what that match does for the narrative surrounding one of the greatest of all time.

It's unbelievable, truly. So I firmly believe the GOAT debate ended in 2022 when Lionel Messi won the World Cup. And here we are 4 years later. He's back into a final with a team that obviously has a number of good players, a number of high-level players. But the macro view of this team, it's Lionel Messi and it's 10 absolute dogs, guys that you just don't want to go anywhere near, guys who will literally kill anything and anybody for Messi in particular.. And in addition to just winning, but it's like winning for Messi in Argentina. It's like neck and neck for these players. It is truly astonishing to watch. It's a joy to watch. I love the fighting spirit. I know sometimes that they go a little bit overboard. They cross the line, but they're always on the line. Rodrigo de Paul lives on that line. He knows how to always either get a yellow or walk away when he should have. I was joking in our group. I was typing out a text. When you need a goal, you sub on Otamendi and Rodrigo de Paul. What's going on here? And then de Paul put in like 3 delicious crosses and I was like, I mean, delete, delete, delete, delete, delete.

I was wrong. So it was a truly unbelievable spectacle for Argentina in that win over England.

It's weird because generationally speaking, not the best Argentina in terms of top-end talent. They had individual players that were big deals like Di María was. It was a huge attacking player in the prime of his career. This Argentinean team, much like the one from 4 years ago, It is so built around Messi, whereas before, not that he had to share the limelight, but there were players so capable of individual moments of brilliance that the identity wasn't everything runs through Messi. That's their identity here. And by God, it's working despite not being as talented. They operate almost like a club team in terms of what their identity is. They know exactly how to play. And I think the most impressive part about Argentina is when the game gets tight and they are chasing it, they don't look like the team that is chasing it. They look composed. The other team that is on, on the, on the defense looks like they are panicking, looks like they are stressed, looks like they are burning up all the energy. What do you make of that?

They are completely comfortable. I think that they are the mentally strongest team in the world. It's easy to say that after they win a World Cup, after they have these comebacks, but that's just who they are. Like, it's not an act. It's not. You know, the rah-rah speeches, the stuff that you say in the mirror, the Instagram captions that you'll put. No, like, that's who they are and they know it. For me, when we talk about this team, because Mike, I agree with you, this team is built around Messi. And guess what? That's a pretty damn good idea. So we could talk tactics and there's jokes about Scaloni where it's just like, oh, Tuchel will be talking about a false 9 and then the inverted left back who goes into midfield in possession but drops into like that of him being like a master tactician. And then the joke is like, pass it to Messi or you're off the team. And for me, I don't think that's giving Scaloni enough credit because the best tactical decision is knowing who you are. And Argentina, better than anybody in the world, knows who they are. And I think that's one of my biggest gripes with Thomas Tuchel in England, just overthinking things.

It's almost as if he needs to prove he's smarter than you rather than, oh, this makes the most sense. This is best for our team. Like, why right after the goal? It's bringing on Kounde and it's keeping keeping Dan Byrne loose in the bullpen for the fourth quarter to come in off the bench. It's just like, what are we doing here? You have a team that's worth close to $2 billion and oh my God, we're going to bunker and counter like we're Cape Verde. Cape Verde put up a better fight against Argentina.

Give them third place. Give Cape Verde third place.

Like, let them, let them play in the third place game because I know England, England doesn't want any part of that.

Will's hanging around still. Will, you want any part of that third place?

Absolutely not. It's the worst game in all of football. It's an utter disgrace that it even still exists. And Master has been winding me up all day about it, saying, oh, you still get to play Saturday. I'm like, no, no, no, no. The nation that believes more than anywhere else that if you're a runner-up, you're just first-place loser should not believe in a third-place playoff. That is a disgrace. The only thing I wanted to say before I do go, because I thought this about Messi earlier today and I looked up the odds— Messi was +5,000 to win the Ballon d'Or before the World Cup. If they win on Sunday with a number of assists and goals he's had, I think an MLS player might just win the Ballon d'Or. Pretty sensational.

Well, what will his League Cup performance do to bolster that case? Because, yeah, the World Cup's nice, but he has the League Cup coming up. I hope he rests.

Can you do it against Colorado Rapids? Leo, I have actually given that thought to Will. It's not like his club output isn't tremendous, but that's always going to be diluted by what people think globally of MLS, but an MLS player is absolutely bossing this tournament and has the highest output in the World Cup. You can maybe have a few knocks, more than a few, against him because MLS isn't of quality, but it's not like he isn't absolutely dominating that league. I think he has a hell of an argument.

It's madness. We had Julio Aker on the show earlier today, and he said what's amazing is that the Argentine public was still treating Messi, the greatest of all time, this week as like, yeah, but Maradona did it against England in '86. So unless you've done it against England, we're 'Actually, you are the greatest of all time.' And then he goes and gets 2 assists and turns the game around almost single-handedly in the last half. Brilliant. Thanks, guys. Show me that as well.

That's what I really need. Once deeper into that wound, we will once again formally say goodbye to, to Will Gavin, co-host of The S Word and the TalkSport Preview, a final that England will not be playing in. That's right, Spain versus Argentina. Market prices suggest that Spain is the favorite to lift the I agree. And I know that we're all breathless after that. Yet another incredible Argentine clutch performance with Messi, and they have the best player and everyone is just resigned now. That's amazing how the narrative has shifted. Everyone is resigned now to the greatest player of all time doing greatest player of all time shit in knockout stages. When you realize for the vast majority, these moments have eluded him and he's having moment after moment after moment after moment in these knockout stages. But I do think Spain Spain presents a unique problem for Argentina. They were lucky to run into an English team that wanted nothing to do with possession, didn't put any players on that knew how to take on anybody that had anything to do with keeping possession. Dog, that's not the, the situation with Spain. They, they love to pick you apart and tire you out, and they are pretty composed.

And let's not even mention how defensively stout they are. I do think that we're running into a cool narrative here where Lamine Yamal, even though he hasn't had the greatest tournament by his standards, the goals aren't there just yet, can be the Highlander that has taken out Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messi. What say you?

It'd be— it'd certainly be a fun story to tell. It is a very interesting final. Stylistically, I'm really excited for it because you're right, Mike. If Spain go up 1-0, they're not going to cede possession and bring on 7 center backs and go, whoa, whoa, whoa, it's me. We're a small country. We're Oh, this little small team with all these players from Real Madrid and Manchester City and all this, like, give me a break. But with Spain, they will dominate the game with the ball. They were flawless against France, particularly Fabián Ruiz and Rodri. Like, that double pivot was truly— didn't put a foot wrong. It was really, really cool to see. Argentina, though, more than any other world power, are comfortable without the ball. If it's 70% possession to 30% possession, Argentina maybe not prefer that, but they're going to be fine because these guys can suffer. These guys can run, these guys can tackle, these guys can compress space. And then that'll give Messi some space in transition. I will say England did a really good job at eliminating space for Messi for the first 60 minutes of the game. And in moments they were high pressing and it was difficult for Argentina to play out of it.

So that's going to be the playbook for Spain.

And then Gordon— and then Gordon scored and they decided to put everybody in the box. It's crazy.

And no matter what England did, like, Spain is going to play their game, right? But particularly so after you watch that semifinal. As if Spain had any other ideas than to just play their way. It's a pretty good idea to continue to do it. But Argentina are like that midfield, like Paredes, Mac Allister, Enzo Fernandez. Like, they're obviously really, really technically gifted, but God, they're dogs, man. And I don't want to be so reductive and so simplistic and just keep saying it. But it's, it is what their DNA is. It is the special sauce of this team because Enzo Fernández is one of the best midfielders in the world. But part of what makes him one of the best midfielders in the world is he's not a luxury player. He's an all-action player. He's competitive. He's nuts. I, well, my father-in-law isn't a big soccer guy and he's been really getting into the World Cup and I think it's really nice. And he'll text me and he goes, oh, these Argentines are pretty physical. Like, yeah, keep watching.

And all of that is with intent. Yes, it is their identity. It's all they've known. This is a very South American style, but feeling out the boundaries of how the game is officiated, and also riding the officials the way that they do. I, I do think it's telling when an English player goes down surrounded by maybe the captain, Harry has a couple of words with the official, whereas something happens to Messi, you get crowded by 8 dudes on the pitch. That, that is, they know how to work the officials. It's part of their game, getting these calls that operate within very small margins. And they just know exactly who they are. They, like I said, a club team with a national team brand. But I do think because of what you highlighted, the double pivot of Fabián Ruiz, who is undefeated wearing that national team shirt, and Rodri, who now finds himself in the Golden Ball discussion when he actually didn't look that good in the first couple of matches here. And now he's back to Ballon d'Or form right now. That's not super sexy. Taking away passing lanes isn't super sexy to casual observers.

What is it specifically that those two do in the midfield that can play out that Joe Soccer Fan can say, Tom Boger told me to look out for this?

It's retaining possession. They don't lose the ball, and Fabian Ruiz is better and better at getting forward. But, but Mike, like you said it, watch what happens in transition because the transition moments are the most terrifying when you're going against France. Mbappé, Olisey, Dembélé. And Spain, the rare times they turned over the ball, Fabián Ruiz and Rodri would cover touchline to touchline and you won't notice it because they glide. Watch them off the ball is probably my best advice because that's when you really see them doing their magic because everything looks so simple. If you're just watching the ball to go another 15-yard pass. Okay. Oh, that was an easy interception. But you don't notice that the intelligence to get to where that space was. And they don't break a sweat. Don't break a sweat. Again, the old quote about Sergio Busquets. It's like if you watch Busquets, if you watch, watch Busquets, you see the game rather than watching the ball. And that's what this team is so good at. And Rodri did not look great early in this tournament. He is back to his Ballon d'Or form as he's played against France. Fabian Ruiz, I think, is constantly overlooked.

Mike, like you said, it was kind of a throwaway line, but let's say it again. Man, he's got like 50 caps for Spain. He has not lost one single time. That's unbelievable. And this is not somebody who, when we talk about the best midfielders in the world, we probably wouldn't even call him world-class, let alone put him in that discussion. This guy's so very good, and he's getting his flowers over the last week because that performance was awesome. When the starting lineup came out, I think there was a couple eyebrows raised, like, why isn't Pedri? Why isn't Gavi? But it's Fabián Ruiz. And it's the same thing with PSG this year. He was injured a little bit, and it's like, oh, can they go to another level because they have a more creative more exciting attacking player, somebody who's going to dribble or take more touches. And then, no, like, you just realize this guy's awesome.

Yeah.

Spain's manager has also done wonderfully well. The tactics, tactics deployed, every substitution seemingly working for them after that Cabo Verde match. I am curious if Messi, who spent so much time on that right side against England— I'm not really sure how that came to be. It's more than I've ever really seen him operate, at least wearing a national team shirt on that right. Are we going to get situations in which Kukerea is on an island against Messi? Because I do think that while Kukerea is very good and I think is supremely underrated, I don't like Messi going at him at an increased clip. There is an opportunity here for Kukerea to make a mental mistake that leads to a big chance.

In Kukerea's defense, Mike, there's not literally a single person living on this earth that I'd be content going one-on-one with Messi. And it's the same thing for Lamine Yamal. It's the same thing for Mbappé. And I think that Messi is just so good at everything, right? If he was not a great dribbler, he'd be one of the best through-ball artists we've ever seen in this game. Like, that's what we'd be talking about for him. If he couldn't score, we would talk about his dribbling, right? Like, he's got— he's like the very, very best at so many things. Another thing that he doesn't get enough credit for is his brain. He drifted to that side because he felt the game and he was in the middle and there wasn't space.

Space.

And then as the game got compressed, instead of trying to force his way in, he's really smart about— he'll drop off, but drop off and pass and move. Again, these are such simple concepts, but he does it better than anybody in the world. Think of how many goals for Barcelona he scored playing the ball out to Jordi Alba. The defender watches the ball for half a second and Messi's gone. And it seems silly because it's like, if there's literally anybody in the world that you won't ball watch and you'll just watch this player, it's Messi. But he knows how to blend. He knows look like he's being ordinary or look like he's taking a second off or taking a moment to think. And then the second you look away, he's gone. And that's what Spain have to be so careful about. And going back to Fabián Ruiz and Rodri, that's what they're world class at. Fabián Ruiz in particular, like that shuttler role of going into the half spaces when Cucurella gets forward. He can cover that end line flawlessly. That's what he did against France. I think that is what kept the control for Spain just as much as their ability to keep possession.

It was when France turned the ball over it was Fabián Ruiz cutting those lanes and making sure that Kukuréa either wasn't on an island or wasn't getting played in behind. So I think that's going to be the big— like, again, we're going super micro into this, like inside baseball, but that is the space to watch is when Argentina win the ball back and try to transition. What will the half spaces look like where Messi is? Because Messi is smarter than anybody in the world at— I'm just going to float off the ball. Sometimes I'll press. But most of the time I'm floating and you'll think I'm just taking a break. But he's constantly doing cost-benefit analysis. All right. If we win the ball right now, I'm going to dart 5 yards that way or I'm going to walk over here. Oh, Kukere is gone. Let me just slowly go into the space that he's leaving. And it's going to be up to Fabian Ruiz more than anybody to be the double team and to be the person that's covering that space to help Kukere.

Tom, for every punch, there's been a counterpunch in the analysis. It's been brilliant. I can't tell who you think is going to win this match. So Tom Bogert of The Athletic, whose coverage is not behind a paywall for the remainder of this World Cup tournament. Go ahead and support him. He does a great job on Golazo Network as well. Who wins this World Cup?

Mike, it sounds like you can't tell who I'm leaning because I don't know where I'm leaning. Like, you could tell me, make the case for Spain, and it's like, that's infallible. Of course they're going to win. And then conversely, you'd be like, give me a minute on Argentina, and I'll be like, that's infallible. Of course they're going to win. We're sitting here a few days away from the game. We're still reveling in the semifinals. Those are two very good semifinals. The England-Argentina one was obviously be more pyrotechnic and more fun to watch. But that Spain performance was flawless. I'm leaning Argentina and Messi. And we've gotten caught this way where, like, the Chiefs and Patrick Mahomes, like the Super Bowl and everything in you tells you that the Eagles are the better team. But it's like, but that team has Patrick Mahomes. Ah, we've seen it. Maybe there isn't a lot of rationality behind this. And like, if Spain win 2-0 on Monday, you're going to be like, oh, cool. Of course, like that was the better team. There's, you know, this is an Argentina team that scraped by every round. But for me, like you don't go broke betting against Messi.

You go broke betting against Messi. You don't go broke when you're following him. So for me, I'm not gonna doubt the GOAT.

But is this gonna be the Kansas City Chiefs team that was widely criticized just finding a way to get past and get the results and then ended up getting blown out by the Philadelphia Eagles? I don't think it's gonna be a blowout. The styles don't really lend themselves to that. And you have players so capable of individual moments of brilliance. But I do think Spain are a unique problem. And I do think that that photo is going to have one of the game's all-time greatest, if not the greatest, bathing the guy that came for his stuff. Tom, thank you so much, buddy. We got Good Follow coming up next. A big thank you to the audience of the Dan Le Batard Show that has been so well receiving this morally abhorrent cycle. I've really enjoyed doing this for you. It's helped me recapture some enthusiasm that I have had for the sport. So thank you for the feedback. Thank you for supporting what we're doing. Thank you for all the comments and support. We really appreciate it. No more Lee Abhorrence anymore. We're going to be covering the World Cup final on Monday like a proper show and give it the respect that it deserves.

And it's because it's a World Cup. It's in our home and we've risen to the occasion. American people have been wonderful. The tournament's been great. Let's have an all-time final. We'll talk to you on Monday.