Transcript of The 49ers Mirage, CJ Stroud's Takeover, & Nu-Metal Confessions (feat. Nate Tice)

I don't want to hold you up too long, so a couple things before—

before my own fault going long. So what's going on?

Oh, oh, you want to compete? I don't know.

Careful when you're talking about prize fighters. You're like, okay, we'll go 15 rounds.

Get comfy because this is a 4.5-hour episode. It's Football America, and the host of Football 301, Nate Tice, is joining us. We're going to chop up questions like, are the Niners overrated? Is Purdy underrated? Created. Also, where is America's alleged team as we head into the season? Should we buy stock in an AFC South power? Is choir boy Fernando Mendoza in the perfect situation in Sin City? Why is Dan Marino Superman? And why am I the greatest orderer of food in all the land? Let's talk about all of it, plus maybe some corn spelled with a K against my will. Let's start the show. Yes, hi and hello, my fellow football Americans. Welcome to Football America, presented as ever by our pals at DraftKings Sports, now available in all 50 states. And whether you're in one of those 50 states or really anywhere on the big blue marble, we appreciate requests, nay demand, that you leave us a comment and subscribe wherever you find your podcasts. Also on YouTube, Football America with an exclamation point. Like I say, subscribe and drop us a line, a question or otherwise. We look forward to the conversation there.

And by the way, while we're talking about great Football Americans, a happy birthday to our pal Danny B down in Miami behind the glass along with Gino and Buddy. How are you, fellas? We gotta jump into it. I don't even have time for you to respond to to my pleasantries there, because we do have Nate Tice coming up very quickly though, Gino, with so much going on. By the way, shout out to you for being right. I didn't get a look at Argentina's road jersey or kit. I like the powder blue with the vertical stripes. That navy one looked pretty smart there, as did Messi in victory. Let's get to it quickly, as we do at the start of every show. Who wore the number 73? This is episode 73. Who wore that jersey number best in football or futball or in any sport?

This is a big meaty number here. Let's go with Larry Allen, legendary guard/tackle for the Dallas Cowboys. 325-pound man at his lightest, probably. That guy was huge. Joe Thomas, offensive tackle for the Cleveland Browns. And John Hannah, guard for the Patriots back in the '70s.

Yeah, cover boy. How many offensive guards make the COVID of Sports Illustrated? John Hannah did, and they called him the greatest lineman of all time. I think it was something like that, the greatest lineman ever. That's what Patriots fans had to celebrate in the previous century. Different stuff this time around. But 73—

I got one.

Yeah, go ahead.

I got one from puck. Olympic gold medalist, not a Stanley Cup champion yet though, at least. Charlie McAvoy, defenseman for the Boston Bruins, one of the best defensemen in the game, wears number 73 and famously was, like I said, part of that team that brought home the gold in Milan this past summer. Past summer, past winter. What is wrong with me?

Also, there's Larry Allen is one of those guys. I have to make the full list here of guys who have two first names as their full name. Larry Allen. But then there are guys who don't have a first name at all and it's two last names like Colston Loveland. There's not a first name in there. Would you rather be Allen Larry or Larry Allen? I don't know if you—

Larry Allen for sure. Allen Larry is not a— is not a— No, that's not a proper name.

Well, neither one is very good. Also a weird name for a baby and a grownup, which is the double, which is the what you don't want. There are a lot of names that are good for a grownup, but they don't work for a kid and vice versa. Like Toby is a fine name for a little kid. You don't want to be a grownup named Toby. No. And likewise, Calvin, you can be a Calvin as a, as a 47-year-old person, but Baby Calvin, that's weird. But did you see these new names in college football? Prayer Young Black Goat is going to Arizona State.

Oh my God, these are great.

You know which, which are the best here, Gina? Dude Person.

Dude Person is my favorite one. Dude Person is great. King Large.

I don't know if it's Mitch or Mish. Mish Bility is going to Rice, and I think this is the winner going to SMU. King Large. I think that's the one I would—

King Large is because he's an offensive lineman.

That's an, mobility is pretty good too.

You just said, you got it exactly right, Gina. If you're king large, but you're the size of Lionel Messi, that's an ironic embarrassment for you. You know, it's like, as I've said for 25 years now, Champ and Boss Bailey were well named by their parents, but ambitious by the parents' move. Same thing as Merlin Olsen, naming their child. He's an unborn, he's a little baby comes out. They're like, what should we call him? Let's name him after a fictional medieval wizard. Like, if that doesn't work out and he's a janitor, it's really embarrassing. And same goes, hey champ, um, can you get the plunger and go unclog stall number 3? Now it's bad to do that, but Champ and Boss Bailey made it in the NFL, so, so good job by the parents there. King Large wins this one. All right, enough about this. What did I just say at the top? And you guys didn't listen. You started talking about all this other stuff. Let's get to Nate Theis. He's the host of Football 301 with Nate Theis. I'm very much looking looking forward to talking about football, not soccer or otherwise. Gotta focus in though, Dave.

You only have so many seconds to have this conversation. Spent time, this guy did, in Florida before heading to the Big Ten to play quarterback, and he has professional ties to the Raiders. Basically, he is the forefather of Fernando Mendoza. He's Nate Tice. Great to meet you, fella. How are you? Thanks for the time.

I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me. I thought you're going to rope in my 2 years at Pitt. Just to get some yinzer in there, you know, just to get that little connection there. A little Carson's. I live right on Carson Street, you know, so maybe that, you know, drop that in there, you know, a little French fries on this podcast to drop in on it as well.

Well, I'm sure you can recognize by my background here that I am— we are talking— I am talking from the banks of the Three Rivers, as a matter of fact. Oh, Carson Street. Yes. Great. Oh, yes. The Strip District and otherwise. Maybe we'll have a little bit of time to talk about the football collective organized on the banks. For September 2026 and beyond. You just did an episode with our mutual pal Matt Harmon, hipster through and through, on the most underdiscussed teams going into the NFL season here. Let's go the other way then, shall we, and talk about the most overdiscussed teams, as in the most overrated. If there's only one, if there may be three you want to jump in on here, Take it away. Who is perceived right now to be a legit contender that you don't think has what it takes to get there by, let's say, you know, New Year's Eve?

You know, and this is more just— it's kind of funny because if you ask me in like November, December, I was like, hey, I'm going to plant a flag in this team because they had so many injuries. They're going to bounce back this next year. The 49ers a little bit.

Whoa.

Not that I think they're going to be outright bad. But I think a lot— we're kind of waving away some warning signs that are going on with that team. Kyle Shanahan always gets the offense right. It's going to be a locked-in top 10 offense, doesn't matter what the personnel. It's, it's kind of frustrating for me to be like, yeah, well, they have this, they have this wrong, this wrong. And it's like, you look at all the advanced stats, it's like 4th 49ers, you know, 2nd 49ers. Um, but if you just look at the team, they didn't really boost up the offensive line. George Kittle's coming off an Achilles, late-season Achilles, and George Kittle is really important to what that offense does as a blocker and a receiver. Um, and Achilles, we're kind kind of waving away Achilles injuries for whatever reason.

Those are a year injuries before you even get to near 100%, and these guys are freaks because whatever the 21st century doctor's voodoo that they've been working has, has shortened the time that you have. Yes, it used to be 2 years at minimum if ever you were going to be right after an Achilles. It seems like in the last decade or so they have kind of largely solved it, right?

It used to be Old Yeller. They, they, you know, they take you out back. And then it was a couple years, and then now it's like a year, and then you can actually function somewhat what you used to be. But you do get sapped of your athleticism. It used to be just like you were totally like 70%, 60% of what it used to be. Now it's more like 90, 95% of what you used to be. But still, it takes some time, and especially for a guy as explosive as Kittle. But I'm bringing that up because it's a Shanahan run game, and he does a lot in the blocking, uh, in that aspect. Jake Tonjes, their backup, had some nice moments last year, so it's not going to be totally awful. But it is something— he's a very important cock. Um, they— yes, they got Mike Evans this offseason. Mike Evans is quite old and has battled some injuries recently. And yes, he's going to find moments. Kyle Shanahan will find ways to use him. But to count on him to start 17+ games, not something I would bet on. Uh, Ricky Pearsall, same case, has— his injuries have been kind Weird, he got shot in San Fran.

You know, it's kind of just not all football injuries, but still he has missed time as well. Uh, Iyuk is just obviously off the team. CMC, great player, but CMC also had about 400-something touches last year, and historically that usually doesn't mean you have a great year the next year just because they're all human.

Yeah, but he saw the German doctors.

He saw the German doctors. And the defense has improved a ton, uh, and I really like their offseason moves, but I do think that is just fragile. And, and there are just aspects of the team like the outside corner play. Um, uh, Damanador Lenoir they have on the outside, I like him better in the slot, but then they have Upton Souton slot. So there's just some stuff where I'm kind of squinting at. Um, and Raheem Morris, as I like as much as a guy, a guy that you like having on your staff, now he's going into it to be the defensive coordinator and totally having to rejuvenate it and, and really just bounce back with kind of some really good pieces. Bosa, Fred Warner coming back, but they just have some question marks, and I think they're bigger question marks than we usually have with the 49ers. So not saying bad, not saying 6 wins, but more of like— I see this as like a 9-win team than anything like super— they can make a run to the Super Bowl or something of that sort.

Dave, before you move on, sorry, I have a young guy question. So you mentioned that Achilles injuries, Nate, used to be like Old Yeller type injuries, right? Was Marino the first guy that like actually came back from an Achilles injury within a year or so? Because he missed all of the I, I want to say it was the '93 season, and then he came back for the '94 season, and he has that game where he throws for 5 touchdowns on the dirt against the Patriots, and all 5 touchdown passes are lasers. Was he kind of the first guy that overcame that Achilles injury?

Probably. I mean, the one that I can even remember. And that's the thing, is most all-time greats usually are healthy enough to be remembered as all-time greats, unless you're like Bill Walton, you know, like, it's like— but at least in a football sense, most guys usually they had those injuries. It was like, yeah, they had a great 4-year run and then their, their leg snapped, you know, or this happened. Their ACLs used to be like— they used to just remove your ACL, and some guys would try and play with that, but it's obviously you're not going to be the same way. Um, but yeah, Marino's a great shout there. And, uh, I, I love watching the old Marino stuff because he wouldn't take sacks even though he couldn't move. He was a literal statue back there, but he was just so— his arm was just incredible. You know, I, I know I'm— this is a biased show for this, but Marino, I have very high my all-time quarterback rankings. And every time I bring that up, everyone always goes, he didn't win a Super Bowl. It's like, I don't care. Did you watch him? It's like, what if Superman decided to play quarterback?

That's Dan Marino.

Like, okay, I agree with that. And you're not going to suck me into another QB wins conversation because another mutual pal of ours, Mina Kimes, and I have gone round and round about this. And it's sad for as smart as she is, she's wrong about that one. Obviously, the entire point of the sport is to win the trophy at the end of it. If you never do that, That dings your legacy. I do make an exception for number 13, and not just because I grew up watching him in Pitt Stadium. But two things very quickly, buddy. You're rude because Nate Tice is also a young guy and you implied otherwise.

And really, really young guy question.

And it's what we'll go with. An old man knows this, and apparently you guys don't. Dan Marino after the Achilles was no longer Dan Marino. He was still great, but he was not dynamic. People don't know that prior to that, He was— I mean, he wasn't a— he was a great functional scrambler, could take off and run with it, although he didn't do that much in the NFL. He was a very different cat before that. When he came back, he got those, those birthing hips. Yeah, yeah.

I love that term.

£65, right?

Yeah. Look, Dave, I grew up on stories of Dan Marino, right? And all I ever heard is he couldn't move, but he somehow— what Nate said, he couldn't move, but somehow he never got sacked. He was like— but Brady was the same thing, right? Like Brady, you don't think of him as a mobile guy, but he was so efficient in the pocket.

Brady would dump off to the running back with the chip blocks and like he just, he had a way of doing it. It wasn't a physical limitation that he had. He just, that was part of the—

not in January. He didn't have a knack of doing much of anything come January. But okay.

Brady was a surgeon and, and, and Marino was a machete. You know, he was just— that's a great way to put it.

I love that.

He was, I mean, he was throwing hero throws. That's why I made the Superman joke. Joke because he makes, he makes throws that don't— I brought this up when I was backing up Russell Wilson. It was like Russell would make throws that like weren't in my brain as possibilities, like the denominator didn't exist, you know. It was like, yeah, that, that possibility wasn't even there. That's Marino every game. He's one of the most fun. I love— I encourage always people, if you're bored, especially right now in July, watch some old NFL games on YouTube. They have full games out there and you'll see some stuff that are never called highlights, especially if you watch some Miami late, mid late '80s Miami games.

Oh, you're talking my language. You'll see what I throw around and do. Now I don't feel so dorky if you're doing it.

No, no, that's my summer watch. And it's also just to re-jog the brain and be like, hey, am I wrong about this guy, or am I overrating something? And I, I will say one thing, the refs didn't call shit back in the day, so that'll be one thing. Definitely better days.

It'll make you crazy. You think, oh, it's a, it's a good thing That it was a better day before we had review. And there is an argument to be made about the delayed euphoria you feel like, wait, no flags, flag, flag. Okay, we can be happy kind of thing is not great. But go back and watch old football games and see how many—

you're so thankful—

hit the ground and then play by play, just like, oh, it hit the ground anyway, third down here. Yeah, you can't—

no acknowledgment, no calling the ref out, nothing. Just, hey, that's it. We missed it. I mean, oh well, let's move on to the next play. You know that? I mean, or they— you'll watch some '80s games, there are 4 false starts every play. Like, every receiver goes early. It looks like a Canadian game. Like, it looks like the CFL. Every receiver's going early. They're like— tackles and guards are moving in their stances. It's like, you guys talk about like how strict everything was back in the day. It's like, shit, no shit.

I mean, the spirit of the game is corrupted that these, that these human beings who can do rare things that like 0.001% of every— any human being who has ever walked the planet Earth can do. And they get undone because a millimeter of a toe hit the line. And it's like, wow, we can't give him that. Or the ball— rule of cool— spun over. Nobody else could even put their hand on that ball. And he did it with one hand and he brought it down. But like his toe touched the line. It feels like it works against the spirit of what we're all trying to enjoy here. But anyway, Okay.

See, now let's talk about VAR.

No, I'm kidding.

Oh, we're here for it.

We're all the way locked in on that conversation.

Absolutely.

I was about to go down that path, but I wanted to get off of replay conversation.

No, no, no.

We're not talking. We're not. Yeah, we're not doing that. We're ready for football. It's time to start. If you're already behind Nate Theis and Dave Dameshek, if you ain't locked in on football season 2026, And you just mentioned, I love that machete metaphor you just made there. The one I always go with, because surgeon is good. I go, instead of gunslinger, people go game manager. I go assassin. I think that's gun imagery and all of that, but I liked your swordplay that you went with there. Either way, before we go into a more general conversation that I wanna have with somebody, who, um, is as studied up as you are. Specifically, now nobody's buzzing about the Houston Texans right now because of how January looked for them, but where are you on them and what happened to CJ Stroud last season and how quickly they can turn him around? Because if he is a top 3 QB, I don't see any reason why they're not a Super Bowl contender this year.

Yeah, if I right now, middle of July, you know, gun to head, had to pick an AFC champion, the Texans are my leader.

What? Really? Wow.

The AFC is wide open. And I mean, and we felt it last year where it felt like the AFC had a lot of imperfect teams. That's why the Patriots came out of it. The Patriots were a very imperfect team. You know, May played really well, but they just kind of, you know, we could talk about schedule and everything. They took advantage of it, but they were still a good team. But that's a team that should have won one playoff game and then lose on, you know, that's kind of like a normal schedule or a normal season. Um, you know, like the Ravens were regrouping, fired their head coach. The Bengals had injuries, Burrow got hurt. Um, the Chiefs were the Chiefs, Mahomes got hurt. The Bills, their defense fell completely apart as the season went along. They kind of bounced back at the end of the year. So like all those kind of like powerhouses that we're used to, we're kind of just going through a crossroads year. And I think that continues this year, and then after this year it might normalize back where the, you the behemoths feel big again. But why I'm bringing up the Texans is that defense— if the Seahawks didn't exist last year, we'd be talking about the Texans defense as that all-time defense.

Like, that is a— they were truly up there statistically, eye test, talent level. It's probably the most talented defense from top to bottom. Um, you know, Seahawks are very complete, and there's some other good ones, Broncos as well, but the Texans are just— they have star power and the in-between players that just all make sense. Uh, and then I think that offense is, do I think it's good? No, but they've made the move that I always like teams doing where they go— they went from shit to not shit with offensive line. Like, that's what they did. They went from awful, terrible, you know, hodgepodge parts that got better from like Week 10 onwards last year. They kind of figured out their starting 5 and it became like the 22nd, 23rd, 24th best unit. So like below average. This year I think that that unit's still not great. I still— I think it could be average. And if that's average and the run game is even near average— and David Montgomery is going to help out in a lot of ways. I don't think he's going to be as good as we've seen the best of him, but he's just such a good kind of glue guy on the team.

Um, anyways, pass protection, kind of little things guy. Um, like he's always going to get the yards blocked for him. He's not going to waste anything. He has zero fat to his game that I think if the run game is just average— this run game in Houston has been atrocious in the last 3 years. It's been— I use rushing success rate. As my kind of primary stat, I'm looking at run games. They've had the worst run game over the last 3 years. So really since Stroud has been the quarterback there, or really since, you know, this whole regime's been there. So if that, that run game just gets average-ish, I think Stroud played better last year than people realize. It's just the end was so bad that that's—

I mean, I think that's what's going to live in your brain. Focusing on, right?

That's what's going to live in everyone's brain. I totally get that's human condition. We're going to remember the beginning and the end. And so we remember that. How many times we talk about week 1? We over, overemphasize week 1 and then we forget what— I like, I'm going back, I'm like, man, those two teams played in week 6, I forgot about that. Like, those two teams played in week 13, forgot about that. Um, but you watch them, them watching the second half of the year after he got hurt, Davis Mills came in, then Stroud came back, the o-line kind of got solidified. You can kind of see the pieces of what they're building. Do I think it's gonna be a top 10 offense? No. But if it's just average, that's all you need in the AFC. Elite defense, an average offense with an average run game that can make Stroud play I consider Stroud like a locked-in top 14 quarterback, let's call it. So top half of the league, I consider him that way. So even if he plays to the level I think he's at, that, that's more than enough to win a Super Bowl with.

That's what Darnold basically was last year. So, and I think Stroud has a little bit more to him than Darnold at this stage in his career. Darnold's kind of put some things back, but I do think run game average, amazing defense, and a quarterback that's willing to push the ball. He has to cut down some sacks. But I think he can with the O-line and David Montgomery helping him out as well. That's another thing too. Sorry, I already brought it up with the pass protection. Their running backs were terrible in pass protection the last few years, so defenses would just go make the running back pass protect, and, and then they would create pressure. So we're talking about the O-line. Sometimes it's other guys too. So I think they've kind of solidified a lot of the kind of auxiliary parts of their offense. I like that a lot better. And then on top of it, I think Nico Collins is a star. I like the kind of young Iowa State Jaden Higgins and Jalen Noll combo that they have in their second years. And then they added a little bit to their tight end room as well.

I like the guy that they drafted from Michigan, Marlon Klein. I think they needed some tight end depth as well.

So yeah, well, it's funny how ignored they are. I mean, it's sort of the premise of what you did a couple of weeks ago with Matt Harmon. Like I say, that the Texans fit that. And I think the other team, their rival in the division, is the Jaguars. People are not talking about them. And I also think that they are victims of, or maybe they're under the radar, which is beneficial. To them is because of the way the season ended with them. Same old Jags, home game. They should have won that game and they got Josh Allen and that was the end of that. But I think, I think that they are as ignored a contender as there is in the league right now. Um, we're friends with— we're both friends. I'm doing a lot of name dropping of our mutual friends here. Greg Rosenthal is a pal of yours and mine too. You look at him and you look at me and you know one guy knows restaurants better than the other, although he considers himself a foodie. Which is weird. If we go to the same restaurant, if you and I go to a restaurant together and then you go with Greg Rosenthal to the same restaurant, you're gonna have a better meal with me.

Why? Well, also because I, I'm just so wildly charismatic, but also because, uh, I'm the best orderer of food at a restaurant I've ever known.

Oh, are you like that British Bosh guy? Have you seen that guy?

I'm not familiar with his work.

Oh, okay. I'll make sure to send it to you.

Okay.

It's this British guy and I guess he's like a Bosh. Bosch of like the English, uh, the English soccer team. But then also I think of, uh, Newcastle or something, but that's besides the point. But he is now infamous for being like the supreme food orderer at tables. So he did one and he's just perfect, you know, nailing the questions, saying thank you, great manners, ordering drinks for the lady. And just how he did it was like exactly how you wish you could order like a big meal, asking questions. Then he did like a part 2 of where he was in Paris, or in France, I should just say, and he ordered in French. Oh, like, nailed it again and nailed it.

I can't do that. All right, fine.

You have to watch it.

No, Dave, it's so good.

It's so good. As someone that loves ordering for the table, that is— it's like, oh, I wish I could, I could be at that level. It's like watching—

I like that.

Um, yes, just something Robert May's battle for it when we, when we eat together, because he's the ultimate foodie that I know.

Really? All right, well, I, I intend to prove you wrong.

Okay, that's good.

The Bosh character can have Europe and I'll take North America and claim that as mine.

The new world.

But either way, so following the logic of, you know, same restaurant, but the meal could be better if you order better. It's pretty clear to me that anybody who listens to Nate Tice and anybody who watches football and studies the X's and O's as you do, that the two guys really are McVay and Shanahan. First of all, am I assuming too much by saying that? Or, or Andy Reid has his own little category as well. But with all the branches off of the McVay and Shanahan trees, Brock Purdy, people are buzzing about him and where he places, not in the top 10 according to a lot of executive guys right now. Where are you on Brock Purdy? I have said now for the last 3 years that I think we've reached a place in, in football where the play caller is more important than the guy he has at the trigger, because certainly you'd rather have Shanahan than Brock Purdy. And I think the Lions— any Lions fan or Dan Campbell, if he's being honest with himself, said— would say, I'd rather have Ben Johnson than Jared Goff at this point. And there are a few other examples around there.

Am I accurate, or is that— am I over my skis with that?

It, it's kind of a complicated thing. So it's, it's With Purdy, I've always been Brockgnostic, as I put it, where I'm just like, I, I didn't dive into those conversations because we went through it with Jimmy G. And I think anyone that was saying that Shanahan was pulling the strings, not Jimmy G running the offense, I think we saw who won that argument. But I don't think anyone remembers that argument. I don't know why, it was only a few years ago. But I do think— maybe it's just me and Mina just texting each other too much— but I do think with Purdy, Purdy is the best version of these Shanahan controller quarterbacks, you know. Like, that's the joke, is that Kyle Shanahan has a video game controller and he just wants the quarterback to just do what he's inputting. Press X here.

Okay, throw here.

I'm gonna throw to X. Um, and I do think Purdy has that little bit of improv. He does the two things that Shanahan needs their quarterback to do to kind of push him over the top, which is create when the play kind of breaks down. And I think Purdy's a very good creator. He's a good athlete. Um, he's also bigger than people give him credit for. He's not tall, but he's thick. He's very stout. He's like 220-something. And on top of it, even though he doesn't have a big arm, he's willing to push the ball and he's willing to throw into tight windows, and he's got, he's got cojones. And do I think he's an actual true elite, or what I consider a tier 2 guy? And tier 2 to me is like non-MVP Stafford, Dak Prescott, you know, those guys to me are tier 2. Um, I think to me Purdy and like Goff are in their own kind of little thing. They're tier 2 and a half, um, where it's like they are— they do enough and they do it, add on to the offense. They lift the ceiling a little bit. But the play callers, what you're saying, they lift the floor so much.

Like, they, they— and that's what those offenses do. It is a little bit paint-by-numbers where it is, hey, if— or I should say, like, if this, then that, which is some quarterback play is that. And they take a lot off the quarterbacks. They don't make them handle any protections. They don't make them handle any of the pre-snap kind of, you know, changing of plays. Yes, they do. Like, they package plays together, but they don't audible, you know, they don't do the Peyton Manning like this, this. Oh, Tom Brady, hey, we're going to change everything around. And that is part of the system that they run. And then when you see that those offenses take a next level, it's the Matt Ryan 2016, it's LaFleur with Aaron Rodgers, it's Stafford last year with McVay. It's the merger of those worlds. I'm going to let the quarterback be a god and be— handle his things and do his hand signals and change stuff. But then two-thirds of the times it's my show, you know, this is my, my stuff, and run the play how I designed it. All those offenses' play callers and the quarterbacks have had to find that merger.

And I think right now with Purdy, it's more just like Shanahan's like, no, like, it's still my show. So that's why I only can get so high with it, that even if I do think Purdy has his traits that kind of lift some of it, do I consider him one of the elite guys? No. Like, he— again, I've just mentioned that Stroud tier. That's kind of the tier I consider Purdy as well, kind of that, you know, 12 to 14, 15 range of quarterbacks. I know that's like, he's not top 10. Well, he's 12. I'm sorry, guys. You know, like, the problem right now is there's 16 top 12 quarterbacks.

Um, but it is, uh, but I do look at Purdy as kind of way easier to rank anybody in a vacuum than when you have actual names to put them around.

Oh, it's insane. It's so hard. So it's— yeah, this is a long-winded answer to say it's kind of like there's a lot of variables to it, but I don't consider Purdy in those upper echelon tiers, but do think the things that he's asked to do, he does very, very well.

Okay, there are a whole bunch of—

he's not Brian Greasy, you know, no offense.

Yeah, well, I mean, there are different ways I could skin the cat off of what you just said. Yeah, but I guess to cut to the chase, because you sound awfully sober talking about him, because people do get ridiculous in either direction about Brock Purdy. Brock. I mean, what, what happens if— what I mean, I, I know the answer, but like, I guess I don't know what you're gonna say here. Josh Allen gets traded for Brock Purdy. How does that go?

Oh, package, multiple picks, uh, a player.

Uh, no, no, no, I'm not talking about what are the bones of it. I'm talking about Josh Allen joins Kyle Shanahan's—

oh, they set the record for points in a season. They set the record for points in a season. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, if even if I just mentioned the 49ers and the talent level having that drop-off, but if you— Kyle's mind with, you know, if some semblance of a run game with Josh Allen, yeah, no, they're, they're blowing it.

And what happens to Brock Purdy in, in an average offense, even though the Bills are not an average— the reason the Bills rank—

say the running back gets what's blocked for him, that's kind of like with the quarter— like Purdy, that tier of quarterback, they get what's, what's called for them, and then he can just do a little improv to bump it up a little bit. But that's kind of what he is. Goff's the same way as well. Yeah, he— what's blocked for him, he's great at, you know. And then, okay, some other stuff, like, okay, maybe some of those supernova or, you know, the superstar stuff they can't do, but they can kind of do what's blocked for them or what's called for them, I guess. So he's— he can lead like an average offense, you know, if he's around with the average play caller, average everything. Like, he would lead that. Well, I think Josh Allen could boost anything to a top 2, top 3. Josh Allen has created multiple top 5 offenses with one play caller that's now in Tennessee who has yet showed that he's never put together another competent offense. And then now with— now he's got his buddy now as the head coach, Joe Brady, is that like they're calling not that crazy of plays.

Like, it's not like it's superstar designs that I'm like, I can't wait to tweet out about how cool of a design that is. It's Josh Allen, you know, it's good mouthwash for everything. It makes everything kind of taste a little bit better afterwards.

All right, I, I, now I'm getting consumed by this. So would— do you— but your perception is that Kyle Shanahan is sort of intellectually nimble enough and Sean McVay is too, to modify things based on the human being they have under center or in shotgun, right? I mean, they don't— they're not just running their stuff because that's what's in their head. They know, they understand, you know. So, so now you have Clint Kubiak in Vegas coaching Fernando. And for— I'm an Indiana University graduate, I should mention. Fernando, um, with Tom Brady over his shoulder and, and, and the Yankee concept. Is this sort of like Brock Purdy, a high-end Brock Purdy? Like, this is the optimal situation that Fernando could find himself in, in the NFL.

Yeah, this is a pretty dang good one. And, and the Raiders have more talent, you know, than you would think on offense. They're not gonna be great, like I don't think they're gonna win, you know, positive games this year, have a positive win percentage. But, um, you know, that— actually, before I get into Mendoza, Ashen Jetney is gonna be great in this offense. It's a, it's a Kubiak-Shanahan run game, and this guy's very talented. The O-line's not amazing, but they did add Linderbaum, which I do think is gonna be a phenomenal add. That's another thing I liked about the Mendoza Mendoza, um, or your question, or maybe just answer your question, is not only just play car, getting a real vet center really helps out a young quarterback. Because again, I mentioned that they, uh, in those Shanahan offenses, they take it off the quarterback until you earn it. And if you have Linderbaum there, it's like, okay, we don't need to rush that, we don't need to put everything on Mendoza right away. Which is also why I like the Kirk Cousins signing. It's okay, yeah, if it's week 4 and Mendoza's ready, we can drop him in.

And Cousins also this time knows that they're gonna have a rookie quarterback that he's gonna share a room with, as opposed to in Atlanta when he was like, you know, what the hell, like, I'm not gonna groom this guy and help him out. Like, here he knows what his situation is. He's the old veteran to help him out. Um, but I do think Mendoza is in a good situation because they're— I, I, uh, the first and second down offense with that run game, with the boot game, with the play action, those are good training wheels to have for any type of quarterback. You know, those are good ways to— easy buttons is another kind of term I've used where it's like like, okay, we can just call this so we don't have to put a lot on Mendoza's plate. That's what that offense does. And I'll kind of get back to what I even said about with the 49ers and Purdy and Shanahan, that, that type of offense really lifts the floor for everybody— o-line and quarterback mostly— and it just makes their lives easier. Zone runs are a lot easier on the offensive line.

So that's what we saw in Seattle last year. Not the best talent at center, right guard, pretty good left guard, pretty good left tackle, pretty good right tackle, but the run game and the run system kind lifted their floor, so it's at least average-ish. So I think the same thing happens in Vegas, but also with the quarterback. We're not gonna put a lot on his plate. He doesn't have to start right away. So I really like, like, the situation. And you got Bowers. I wish they added one more outside receiver, but again, they're not trying to win 12 games this year. That's— we got 4 years of rookie contract to try to work with and see what we got here. But I do think Mendoza anyways, as when I was evaluating him, when I, I just mentioned the tier 1, tier 2, he's to me is like a guy that can really end up in that tier 2 range. When we're doing these quarterback ranking shows, he's at QB8, you know, QB9, QB10, QB— like, once, you know, once everything goes well. But I think this offensive system is really good for him. And even, um, talking about Indiana under great coaching, Kurt Cignetti and Mike Shanahan— Mike Shanahan there, different Mike Shanahan than other Shanahans we've been talking about, um, former Pitt guy, by the way.

Uh, but he— yeah, because I coached him at Pitt. Uh, but he, uh, that offense on third down, they put a lot on Mendoza as far as mentally. So all that protection stuff I mentioned, that's great to see for me because— or great, I should think, for the coaches too, because they know there's already proof of concept that he can handle the more advanced, complex stuff. And I think a lot of it got overstated about how many RPOs Indiana ran. Yes, they did, but they put a lot on Mendoza's plate on third down and in the red zone, and I thought he executed brilliantly. Throughout the year, and he did the same at Cal too. It wasn't just at Indiana. So I do think this is a better situation than it looks like because the Kubiak offense is going to help a lot. They are still a year away, but I think, I think it really fits Mendoza's skill set. My, uh, sorry that I can ramble. I'm really sorry here, but, uh, the, uh, my comparison for Mendoza is kind of Matt Ryan-ish, and Matt Ryan had his best year in a Shanahan offense.

So there, there we are, you know, kind of. All right, there it is, there it is.

I love it, I love it, I love how it's all coming together here and So, okay, so then I mentioned McVay and Shanahan, and I mentioned Andy Reid, and then Mike McCarthy. And he's now trying to develop— he's straddling the line of having a decrepit old man as a starting quarterback while trying to develop Drew Aller. And I don't necessarily buy the Will Howard buzz, and I expect him to be the odd man out when, when push comes to shove there. But Mike McCarthy and, and with what he wants to do with Aaron Rodgers. And Aaron Rodgers didn't have to show up at the first OTA. I say, what was it, or was it the mini camp? Anyway, he didn't show up. Lamar Jackson did, Josh Allen did. I guess they were dupes because Aaron Rodgers didn't need to be there because I, I think part of the logic was, well, he already knows what Mike McCarthy wants to do, and, and they're old pals. Is Aaron Rodgers still a good fit for Mike McCarthy's offense?

Yes, but I don't think if they want to run that offense they ran at the end of Green Bay, that is— it's not the environment to run it in, the ecosystem to run it in where the NFL defenses are at now. NFL defense— NFL defenses have just caught up to the very true West Coast stuff. We all made jokes about slant flat, you know, that was the joke in Green Bay. They always ran the same concept, slant flat. And I think defenses have really clamped down on what they call quick game underneath throws, and that's how Rodgers wants to play. Yeah, anybody watch Pittsburgh last year, everything was thrown underneath. A lot of swing routes, a lot of stuff underneath. And that's not Arthur Smith's offense. There was a lot of Aaron Rodgers in that offense. Um, a lot of go balls too, uh, to DK Metcalf. A lot of stuff to the outside. Throwing to the outside— and this is why it's a bigger point, this I'm going to tie this back to Rodgers— why throwing over the middle is so important is that— and this is what Shanahan offenses do as well— is those were the explosive plays happen.

Those are where the run and catch opportunities happen. Especially if you throw those digs and stuff that's like 10 to 20 yards down the field. That's where you get the juicy explosive plays. Rodgers kind of just stopped doing it because he doesn't want to throw a pick. And it's really come down to that because he just—

oh, so you think— oh, so it's about— it's stat mongering, not fear of, of getting struck by a 300-pound big guy.

I think there's some stat mongering. Yeah, I do think there's some like stat box score watching and stat watching. I think he's always been like that. That's why he has low interception rates. Um, throughout his whole career. It works when you're creating a whole bunch of explosives and you're scrambling. That's another thing about Rodgers is people have underrated his athleticism his whole career, um, and he was such a good scrambler when he was in his prime, like really, really effective scrambler and scrambled at a pretty high rate. Like his rate of scrambles is about the same as Mahomes, and you would never kind of consider those two in the same kind of category as that. And now he doesn't scramble at all. Ball because he's old and he's coming off an Achilles, you know, a couple years ago.

Um, and yeah, do you think from, from a distance, do you think Aaron Rodgers understands that, that he's more limited than he used to be? Or is he like a prize fighter, the last guy to realize that his high-end athleticism ain't there anymore?

I think he realizes it. That's why he just goes down easily too. Um, that's why he gets rid of the ball quickly. And I think too, that is like, he just knows how how mortal he probably is. Like, you know, like, he— that Achilles probably has a little in his head. But, um, but also I know it was non-contact. But yeah, like, you can see when contact is coming, he's like, that ball's flung out. Or that's why he got rid of it so quickly. And this bears out in stats. Like, last year was the shortest— like, there's a stat you can look at, how far quarterback throws air yards relative to the sticks. So if it's first and 10, all right, how close are you throwing it to that 10-yard marker? And his relative to the sticks was the lowest in recorded history. Second lowest, I'm sorry, only behind Alex Smith with his one year starting in Washington. And then on top of it, you had no one— you can do that if you have a bunch of freaks at receiver and running back that are breaking 10 tackles and you can live that way.

But the Steelers didn't have that last year. They had Adam Thielen at the end of the year, Ben Skowronek. Ben Skowronek is a great glue guy, don't get me wrong, but he's not going to make anyone miss. Um, so that's where it's just— and then on top of it, he's just throwing go balls on the outside. So you needed a good run game, which they actually had last year. I like the Steelers' O-line a lot.

Sure.

But he's not playing to his explosive self. It's very safe, it's very quick timing, and they didn't have the horses to make that work. Um, so I'm not really encouraged because Mike McCarthy is going to run more of the same, and he's going to probably defer to Rodgers like he did in Green Bay. So yeah, they boosted up their receiver talent, which they needed to do. But it's also just one of those things where it's like, okay, but Rodgers has to play a different way than he's been playing the last 2 years.

That's— we park our cars in the same garage on exactly that. That's my concern with McCarthy is deferring to what has worked between the 2 of them and not understanding where Rodgers is in the here and now. Because otherwise, maybe this— maybe this sounds hyperbolic to you. I think they have the best roster minus the quarterback, at minimum in the division, and one of the better top-to-bottom rosters in, in the conference. Um, I don't want to hold you up too long, so a couple things before—

before my own fault going long. So what's going on?

Oh, oh, you want, you want to compete?

No, no, careful when you're talking about prize fighters. You're like, okay, we'll go 15 rounds.

Get comfy because this 4.5-hour episode. Um, okay, the predecessor to Aaron Rodgers was a guy named Big Ben Roethlisberger. Yes, there was a thing that went around in social media a couple weeks ago of like, which guy would you want? And, uh, in the fourth quarter, or if you're down and you need a late drive, and it had the usual suspects, you know, Montana and Brady and blah blah blah, all the rest of it. But Brees and Roethlisberger, and they said, who's— oh no, I'm sorry, it wasn't who would you most want to have Who's the guy you lose from this group? Who's the guy who doesn't fit? And everybody, oh, it's Roethlisberger, obviously. It's Drew Brees. Drew Brees is more circumstantial, in my opinion, than Ben Roethlisberger is. And it goes back to the ordering in a restaurant thing and, and all of that sort of analogy. Brees v. Big Ben. How say you, Nate Ice?

Oh, I'll, I'll probably give the nod to Brees.

Just why, why, why? Because you just feel like that's the right thing to say.

Oh man, it's just with even Big Ben's good years, it was just not— this is more of an aesthetics thing than anything, and it's more just what my preference of quarterback.

You just said that you like the gunslinger. I know, over this.

I know the assassin Brees was more of a gunslinger early on in New Orleans than I think even San Diego Um, but, uh, in, uh, yeah, actually San Diego. I'm right there. I actually— I thought I screwed up there. I was like, it's LA Chargers. No, San Diego Chargers. Yeah, I was right. Um, no, sorry. But, uh, but even early New Orleans, like, he was chucking it. And it's just that we— again, remember, everyone remembers the end, like the CJ Stroud discussion. It's— everyone just remembers old, broken arm, can't throw it past 30 yards, Chad Pennington type arm strength.

Oh no, Daniel Jeremiah said to me a decade ago Watch Drew Brees's head when he's throwing deep. He tilts his head back because he has to look up over the line because he's short.

On his toes, on his toes. And he looks down his, his face mask. He looks down here and he's like that. He tries to look down.

Move over, Malkovich with the Oreos. This is the most obvious tell I've ever seen. Give that man a watch.

That thing deep. We studied him when I was at Wisconsin. So Paul Chris was my offensive coordinator then, and, and he, him and Sean Payton run very similar offenses. So we're watching some Drew Brees and we're watching some Saints stuff, watching play-action stuff. And, you know, he's just ripping throws left and right. And there was one play, he ran a play-action, he's under center and he did the fake and it must have been hot in the Superdome or something. And he wipes his throwing hand on his pants with his right hand mid-play, like as he's doing the fake, he's like, oh shit. And he gets back and he launches it. So why I'm saying that is that he had a little bit more pizzazz to him early in his career. Like he was catching touchdowns and everything. He was a little more of an athlete than I think I don't think people realized.

Oh, licking his hands and everything. Yeah, no, listen, he, he benefited. If you put Roethlisberger, the same drill I just put you through with if you gave Josh Allen the shanty. Yeah, I mean, Ben Roethlisberger with Sean Payton. Brees obviously benefits from that, playing in a dome. The greatest thing I can say about Brees in his prime, his best pass catcher was, uh, was Marcus Colston, but he also had Jimmy Graham going for him. But so much of his stats, stat accumulation was dependent on Alvin Kamara and those choice routes and bad defenses.

Yeah, that helps out too, is when you get to ride the bad defenses for some good stats as well.

Um, I'll just make my case for Roethlisberger. Fourth part, fourth quarter comebacks. In my head, I, I actually did the homework on this. His fourth quarter comeback rate is higher, 16.5% of the games he rallied in. Brees, only 12.5%. That's significant. Over the course of a career, he was— I was a better deep ball thrower, 11.7 yards per completion versus 11.2. Again, that doesn't sound like a lot, but it is over the course of, uh, you know, 18 or 20 seasons in pro football. And then he was better in the postseason, and I obsess over how you perform in the postseason, 13-10 versus, uh, .500.

I loved, uh, Big Ben's 2014. That was like his— that, I mean, his stats, you can even just say, oh yeah, he has the best stats, but it's like, that was when I thought he was at the best of his game mentally. Wasn't doing as much improv with the pump fakes. Also helps when you have Antonio Brown and a good run game, you know, that helps too. Um, but no, that's where I thought he was at the peak of his powers, um, and just where everything kind of came together for him. So like that, I, I do appreciate that part of his game. Uh, did I— did you see my tweet about that? I know exactly what tweet you're talking about, by the way.

That's right, yeah, it was a little AI. Somebody did an AI of them all.

Yeah, Mike would tweet of it, it goes, there's a second name that should be more nominated than people are more comfortable saying. And that was, you know, I didn't say the name because I want to do my vague post-King, uh, and that was Joe Montana. But, uh, you know, so that, uh, it wasn't— the original tweet wasn't about, you know, it was— I don't think it was fourth quarter comebacks.

I did see it then, and I couldn't believe you would say Joe Montana. Although I do think Bill Walsh— and I've talked with a lot of people about this who are around Bill Walsh— people, oh, it's the perfect quarterback for what, uh, for what Bill Walsh wants to do. Bill Walsh, if they don't win that second Super Bowl, I think he— or even if the catch doesn't happen, I think Bill Walsh likes Joe Montana. But by the time the '84 draft comes around, I think he's trying to get Elway out of Stanford. And if not him, he's trying to get Marino, and is even better than— has an even better track record than he had with Joe Montana.

And I don't mean— and this is what— God, this is just, this is just bait. This is just— I'm setting myself up for bad right here. But it's, it It just reminded me of like the Shanahan-Brock Purdy conversation. There's parts of it where it's like, yeah, Montana was better than Purdy, but it's just like that where it's like he— his skills and what he was good at were used perfectly, but the floor was just so high with the offense that he only had to do those things 3 to 4 times. That's the difference, is that some of these other guys, the, the guys that I consider the, the all-timers— Peyton was doing it 25 times a game, 30 times a game, where he has to be perfect and make the perfect throw, is what I'm saying. Marino, we just talked about out with the machete. He had to do it 20 times a game. Some of these guys— and this is why there's kind of that Shanahan tax, you know, this offensive tax— is that those guys sometimes only have to make 4, you know, S-tier throws. Is that fair? No. Maybe they could make a dozen, 15.

But also, you're kind of getting the chicken and egg. Well, if they could do that, then why aren't they asked to do that? You know, kind of like, that's what you have to get to as well, man.

That's a fascinating right?

Yeah. And that's— it's just the, the totality of the offense, and more guys have more usage. And that's what I think too, is sometimes with quarterback play— and I'm guilty of it— I have a preference of style, um, that I think— but there's a million ways to skin a cat there. We watch the NBA. I know Russell Westbrook scores differently than Chris Paul, even if they play the same position. But I'm never gonna go like, you know— but we sometimes group that like, well, he scored 28 points, he scored 28 points, I never once go, well, they scored them the exact same way and they all have to score exactly like Michael Jordan scored them, otherwise they are bad at basketball. We do that with quarterbacks sometimes, that we're like, well, his stats— it's like, yeah, but how they got to those stats can be different. How they played, how they win can be different. And that's not just quarterbacks, it's every position. But I think sometimes we're all guilty of just like, it has to look a certain way, otherwise it's bad, and, uh, or vice versa. So I, I think sometimes That's just part of it.

Well, the analogy I always make is DiCaprio saying, don't judge me by my successes, judge me by my failures because there are so few. And I think the best play callers can make it work with just about anybody. And then the quarterbacks who can carry the day no matter what the system is, you count them on one hand and they're probably literally 4 guys. Guys who would fit that description in the NFL right now. But yeah, the play caller who is adaptable to what he actually has versus what he wishes he has. All right, I've held you way too long, but I did tell you I was going to do this. Give me a hot take here in July that we will resurrect out of context. Nate Tice said— can you believe Nate Tice said this on Football America in the middle of summertime? We'll play it back and you'll look like a genius. I think the structure is something like it's an organic bull prediction, or at least it'll play as though it was organic. You just, you just spilled this out in the midst of— yeah, while we were talking about Dan Marino and how he looked in 1984.

It's like something like, because the blank of this team, they do it so well, that team will beat blank in this year's Super Bowl. Use that sort of as a structure and lay it on us. Like, yeah, I'm, I'm gonna do it. Like, we're talking about something— I'm turning away from you, even as a matter of fact. Yeah, and that's, that's why I think that Justin Herbert and the Chargers have a real good team this year. But what do you think, Nate Tice?

Oh, because the Cowboys offense going supernova with the best receiving room in the NFL— and I'm including Ryan Flournoy with CeeDee Lamb and George Pickens here— and the brilliant play calling and coaching from Brian Schottenheimer and Clayton Adams, and a defense that's good enough, the Dallas Cowboys will beat the Houston Texans in a Texas-sized Super Bowl. The eyes of Texas are in Tinseltown, Dave.

Lone Star Bowl, I love it! Queso Bowl!

I like that. You like that?

Yeah.

Well, and then if I want to do a second take, I'll just reverse the teams.

Like, wait, I'll do it like, I think the Rams are thin and people aren't talking enough about their lack of depth. And if Puka Nukuha gets hurt, they're really screwed. But what do you think, Nate? I don't know why I have to look off into the—

I know, I know.

What is the second take? Same location Super Bowl. Sorry, Dave has the Tinseltown Bowl and then Nate has the Lone Star Bowl. Like, what, what, what's the deal here with just going to an LA? Teams closest that are closest to each other already.

I'm already like, I mean, the Jags seem interesting, the Cowboys do to me. Yeah, I can talk myself into about 6 teams on either side.

Yeah, Nate, he did this in May and is trying to stick to it through an entire offseason. And I'm not trying to stick to it, and he's getting bored, getting bored with LA versus LA.

I'm kind of take committed on the Cowboys too. And that's, that's the Vikings a little bit too, because the NFC North is going to be a bloodbath.

I love the Vikings too this year.

I do too. Yeah, Kyler's kind of getting—

I like Kyler. I like Kyler. Yep, yep, yep, yep.

Kyler's third best season as a pro would be as good as that Sam Darnold year 2 years ago. And I feel— in Minnesota, I should say. And people are acting like he's never done it before. Kyler's twice had like a top 10 QB season in the pros. And it's like, I know Arizona is a dead franchise, like I get all that. And like, it's— last year was the season from hell. But it's like, he's played in like a real offense. Like Drew Petzing's offense 2 years ago was like, he played like a top 10 quarterback.

I forgot you're— yeah, I forgot you're a Petzing guy.

Patsing guy.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, see, I wish we did this like whole, like, you know, like the, the hot take in, in July that comes true, because last year I was hot on the Seahawks. I kind of came— I got there late, more August-ish than July-ish. But it's one of those where it's like, man, I should pound the table a little harder because that would have been a lot more fun. I had like one clip of me saying it and I was like, god dang it, content got ruined there.

Lost. You know what, this was, this was a good warm-up. Now let's start the show. We do 45 minutes bits, or shame the devil. All right, you know what, maybe we could do that down the road. What a delightful conversation, more than I hoped for. And I was very excited for this conversation as I texted you before we had it. Nate Tice, you're dynamite, man.

Thanks for having me. Are we talking Korn now?

Oh, some new metal.

Are you ready?

Listen, this character, this character Tice jumps in. I'm, I'm minding my own business, just sharing with the world how Korn and he feels obliged to let me know that I'm wrong about that, that Korn is actually a good band, but they're not.

Somebody talked Nu Metal on Twitter and I felt a disturbance in the Force. I was like, where is that? Where's that coming from?

Hey, where do you stand? Where do you stand? What's your favorite band from that era? Do you have one?

From that era? Yeah. Oh, well, I was a big, big Linkin Park guy. You know, like Hybrid Theory and Meteora were my shit.

So if that counts, Uh, it very much does that they are in that category.

Limp Bizkit is actually— I like better than the first album.

$3 bill, please.

$3 bill, y'all.

That was the best album.

Yes, please cut this off, please. And then we had such a nice conversation and this is how that's done.

It's me and Dave. Yes. Okay, Deftones are up there.

The first 3 albums are death metal and then they evolved.

Yeah, they evolved off of that. Yeah, no, this is— yeah, no, but that, that was different.

28-year-old white guys who are rich and on tour and living the life. Why? What are they so overwrought about? What are they so upset about?

Dave, it's me and you against Nate and Gino on this one, brother. I'm with you. I don't get it. I never got it.

Listen to some pavement.

Go listen. You ever seen the wrestler with, um, Mickey Rourke?

Yeah.

Yeah, and he talks about— he was talking about, he's like, then like they were at the strip club or the bar or whatever, and it was like, you know, some hair metal playing. And he was like, then Kurt Cobain had to come around with his feelings. Like, you know, he's just like, he's like, he's— what happened to having a good time?

Yeah, you know what, Nirvana was awesome, okay? The rest of them—

thank goodness.

Awesome.

That Guns N' Roses, Appetite for Destruction, and grunge came along just in time to save I don't think I could have taken another 6 months of Mötley Crüe and Poison and all that garbage. That's the worst music. I erred when I said Korn is the worst popular band. All the hair bands of the '80s are worse.

Anyway, listen, Speaker: that—

thank goodness we salvaged something and got off your awful, awful Korn take. And let's focus in. See, just like CJ Stroud finished his season, now this is all anybody's going to remember. That's it. Football America. Nate Tyson, what, the guy who likes Korn? And Limp Bizkit, fat.

That guy, that guy's coming back on. No, no, no, no. Turntables. No, no turntables. What's with the turntables? No.

Here's what we'll do. When that next time I see you, I hope we're in a restaurant and you will be like Michael J. Fox in, in Family Ties. And you have two dates for the school dance and you'll go from one table to the next, back and forth from me to Greg Rosenthal. And at the end, you'll render a verdict of who, who who made the better meal for you.

I thought you were gonna make the Back to the Future reference and Nu Metal will be playing and I'll say, yeah, you guys aren't ready for that yet, but your kids are gonna love it. That's why I thought that's what—

that was a great reference.

That was a great reference.

Gotta get back in time. That's also not—

I like Nate coming armed. Like, he came ready. He had, he had that tea cooking. He, he— you waited 50 long minutes, Nate, to get to corn, and I appreciate you for that, man.

I like that about I come on every show with like, you know, I wish I had a little prep. My first only— I have two bullet points. I have the Cowboys take and the other one is Korn - Nu Metal. New spelled properly, by the way. And you.

So I'm an old enough man that I hate the Dallas Cowboys because they used to square off with the Steelers. Why? The Cowboys never really did anything to me until Super Bowl 30, but I still hate them. And now you have to resurrect all this. And, and, and, and, and, and, and now I'm more upset about that than I am about you liking the Cowboys.

And they're never going to live it down, Dave. You're never going to live that one down. That one's going to follow you.

Stay strong, Dave. Stay strong. I'm with you, brother. Me and you together, we're going down.

I don't like it. He's taking you guys down a bad path with him.

You guys are like a bunch of freaks on a leash. All right, I gotta get out. All right, that's it.

Yeah, he's the host of Football 3 AM. 101. Listen to him and Matt Harmon and everybody else out there. As you can tell, dynamite stuff. Thanks, Nate Ice.

Thanks for having me.

All right, there he goes. I mean, it was a mostly nice conversation until you two chimed in with your nonsense. I think you both embarrassed yourselves, and it's going to take a long time staring back at the men in the mirror. Anyway, listen, enough about American football. Let's wrap it up as we have for the last month here, or thereabouts, with, uh, Futbol America. Futbol America, not football. Futbol America. Um, I don't know if you guys heard, but it's Argentina and Spain. Spain and Argentina. Did you guys watch the semifinals?

Yes, I did. I watched it at a local, uh, bar that has this great, uh, setup for football. And half the place was England, half the place was Argentinian. And I can tell you right now The Argentinians were much louder than the English fans that were there. I was pulling for England too. I was pulling for England. But man, when Argentina scored, it just felt so inevitable. And they just knew. They have this cocky aura about them. They know they're going to win. They know Messi's going to rescue them from the dying embers late in the game.

Like, how do you—

Oh, it was disgusting. No, it was disgusting.

It's Michael Jordan against— with a half hour to go.

No, Gino, this is what I've been saying for for 2 days now, which is basically— how is your strategy? You go up 1-0 and your strategy is, here, Lionel Messi, you have the ball. Like, like what? Like, you just take the ball however you want it. Like, England wasn't even trying— when they would get the ball, they weren't even trying to hold it, pass it around a little bit, settle it down, get some possession, kill some time. They were just punting it right back like QPR against Man City in the 2012— that last game of the season, right, when Man City rescued it at the very end. Like literally just punting the ball back to them, like, here you go, score. And of course, it was inevitable once, once Argentina—

okay, inevitable. But here's a, you know, it's funny, I was going to say Messi, even by soccer player standards, is kind of stumpy. He's like bowlegged and those little chunky little legs he has when you watch him out there and they give him the ball, like, what's that guy going to do with it? Somehow he's really in tight. This is stupid. The ugly American, uh, analyzing soccer, in case you haven't detected that already. But man, there can be 3 guys in very tight quarters around him and he can get out of there with the ball. It really is remarkable.

You saw at one point in the game they were trying to foul him. There were 3 or 4 guys around him trying to foul, and they couldn't do it. They had to like literally put somebody in front of him, and that guy had to truck him, or he was going to keep going.

It's funny you say that.

Is he the weirdest looking guy though? Because I always Tom Brady in his underpants is the greatest football player of all time. Look at that picture of him standing in his underpants, weighing £123. That's the greatest football player of all time. You look at Wayne Gretzky— when Wayne Gretzky's young, he looks like a 14-year-old girl. Um, Michael Jordan has a receding hairline. Babe Ruth was a fat slob. And now Lionel Messi is a little— is this little stumpy fella. It's really funny to look at. These are the of the sport.

It's funny you say that because Dan was doing this thing earlier in the week on the show where he was saying, like, if you put both of the teams— Dan Levitard was doing this thing earlier in the week on the show where he was saying, if you put the teams, both of the teams out there and you pick it like schoolyard style, right, is Messi going last in that draft? And like, in other sports, maybe, right? Because he's— I think he's my height. Like, he's tiny. He's not like the fittest looking guy. But in soccer, like, like, if I see a little guy like Messi out there, I'm like, that's the guy I want. I want him. He's quick, he's agile, he's going to be able to move through defenses freely. And that's what he does. And he was unbelievable. Um, as, as bad as England were, Messi was incredible. And he delivered, you know, the first assist was kind of just— all right, all right, all right, let's cut to the chase.

I don't know what the hell goes on. I look at this thing, it's fine. I see in the middle of the game or in the climactic minute, a moment that some rando runs out onto the field and it's like, oh yeah, he's on the team. But like, he's not in the lineup though. What's he doing out on the field? And, and the one guy from England didn't like it very much. But then I liked how Messi looked at that guy, Bellingham. I like how— I like that De Niro look.

Like, yeah, look at this guy right here, Dave. He's just running like all of his teammates are to the other corner, which is okay. That's expected. Like, teams run crazy celebration. This guy just goes to the middle of the field, starts getting in people's faces, and then yeah, after the game, Jude Bellingham— like, he was talking to one of his teammates or something, and Jude Bellingham heard— I don't know what was said, but Jude Bellingham slapped him on the back of the head. And I think you can see why. That guy, clearly an instigator.

All right, listen, let's cut to the chase here. Tell me your picks for the final here.

All right, um, if I, if I I look at the best teams and what I've seen and all that stuff, all that mumbo jumbo, uh, well, you guys for the record picked France, and Nick Costas came on this year, right? He also said France, and France got their ass kicked by Spain because Spain's defense is ridiculous. And if it was just like an X's and O's kind of thing, I would pick Spain, but Messi has this Tom Brady, Michael Jordan thing about him, and I am not going to go against that anymore, not in his last World Cup game. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with Messi and Argentina because I'm gonna go with the legend on my side.

Yeah, I hate to do the same thing, Dave, but I think Gino's analysis is kind of exactly what I'm thinking. Everything about this game suggests that Spain should win, except that Argentina has Lionel Messi, and the way they've won late— like, you look at the way they've won late and you're like, that's not really that good of a team. It doesn't matter. They've got something on their side, some kind of dark arts or dark magic or something like that. It's conjuring, being conjured up on the sidelines by somebody. I, I don't know what it is. It's, I mean, it's obviously Messi. He's unbelievable still at 39 years of age, but he just finds a way. And look, if I go down, yeah, I'll go down saying, well, I picked Messi to do magic one more time. Does he have it one more time? Probably. I don't know for sure. Spain is an amazing team. They shut down France, but yeah, I'll go ahead and ride with Argentina as well, unfortunately, just so that when I, if I pick Spain or if I If I pick Spain and then Argentina wins, I won't be disappointed. So now I'll just be like, eh, at least I got that right.

Well, listen, I'm glad it's been a good tournament. By all accounts, it's been a marvelous one. I've watched it, but obviously with my novice eye, the people who are expert, like, like you guys have said, you know, one of the great events in soccer history and the swooning over sports and all that. On the— by the next time we do a show, There'll be nothing between us and football season save a handful of baseball games. I can't wait. Uh, make sure you're subscribed to Football America wherever you find your podcast and on YouTube. And as always, leave us a comment. We appreciate you doing that. And with that being said, thanks again to Nate Tice, and we will talk to you in about a week. Until then, thanks so much, my fellow Football Americans. It's been a thin slice of heaven.