Transcript of Pat Riley On Giannis, LeBron, and His Career As a Whole | Postgame Show

Summer is pretty much my favorite time to be a sports fan. The biggest soccer tournament of the summer just wrapped up. Baseball's on every night. Racing never takes a weekend off. And my calendar basically revolves around first pitches, green flags, and whatever game everybody's texting about. I realized I'm the MVP of my group. I'm always the friend that says, "Hey, I've got it. I've got a place. I've got some ice cold Miller Lite. I got the TV. I got a big comfy blue leather couch. Come on over." That's the behavior of a Miller Time MVP. I almost never watch the big ones alone. I'd much rather be with my friends. And if I am alone, we're texting, we're sipping on our Miller Lites, toasting the day, toasting the big games. For me, Miller Lite is just a part of a big game routine. It's brewed for taste with simple ingredients, clean, refreshing, and easy to drink, especially in the Miami heat. It's a true American pilsner and the original light beer since 1975. An all-American summer starts with an all-American beer, Miller Lite. Go to MillerLite.com/Dan to find delivery options near you, or you can pick up some Miller Lite pretty much anywhere they sell beer.

It's Miller time. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces.

You have no idea what an honor this is, not because the legend of more than half a century, a basketball legend, Pat Riley is with us, but because of how much this man disdains the podcast. He does not like the existence of any podcast. He does not have any use for it. So the fact that you would honor us with this sacrifice of joining our podcast, I appreciate it very much, Pat.

Good to see you. Well, thank you, Dan. And I appreciate the shipping containers not here, right? Is that what you call it?

That is the shipping container. They prefer now the custodians because they think they're gatekeeping something. But you didn't want the shipping container here? You banned them? You banished them?

When I went over the roster, You got a team of renegades.

That's right.

And they're good.

That's right.

And every time I listen to your show, I go into any podcast almost with people who have an institutional knowledge of sports, maybe more so in 4 or 5 than maybe croquet or lacrosse or something. The bandwidth in how they talk, they, back there, all of them very accomplished in their presentations, in their body language, their communication, their message, their arguments, and how they go at one another is like being on a team.

Well, I learned it from you.

And my bandwidth here, my brain bandwidth goes very fast when I'm talking about hoops or when I'm in front of my team. But when I'm on a show like this, I can't match that. I really can't because of their depth.

You've said that before about working with Bob Costas, who had sort of an X factor. Expertise in what it is that he was doing. But you've dedicated yourself to the pursuit of almost a single thing for 60 years now, right? Like, that's— you've built your life around something. We'll talk about Giannis and the things of the day, but you have dedicated your entire identity to this one thing that you love above all else except your family.

Well, you know, when you're born in 1945, And you know, you grow up in a small town, you know, with nothing really. I had great parents, they worked hard, but we didn't have anything. You experienced the same thing yourself. And I remember the first time I was in 6th grade, we didn't have a team at St. Joseph's Academy. We were in 6th grade. St. Columbus was having a game that night with the varsity team and a junior varsity team. They didn't have, the junior varsity team didn't have anybody to play against. You know, the priest from, you know, St. Columbus called the priest from St. Joseph's and said, can you give me some 6th graders up here to play against this team? Father Starks walks in, he said, Riley, you, Logan, you, you, 6 of us. We had never even practiced. We win the game. 6th graders against 9th graders. 8th and 9th graders. I get 19 points in the game at 19.

That's a long time ago. You're remembering the exact points?

Oh yeah. No, this was when it changed. This is when it hit. And it was very simple. I walked back into class the next day, my 6th grade class. I walked in and now there's Mother Superior, Sister Mary Samuel, my teacher. Father Starks. And as soon as I walked into class, the kids stood up and gave me a standing ovation. Okay.

And I'm going, I like this.

It's recognition. And so I, I think when you're really young and you get recognized as something and, and you never got that kind of feedback from anybody on anything, oh, I want to pursue this.

That's what happened to me in high school with writing. They told me I was good at something for the first time. It happened earlier for you. You, you must have felt touched by God though, right? Cuz basketball rescued you. Basketball saved you.

You I had the fear of God in me, but I was an altar boy, you know, and I was going to catechism and we had religious teachings every day and I was giving communion on Friday and the whole thing. And so I was touched unbeknownst to me being a 6th grader that a message was sent to me that you're good at something. And I got better and better. It didn't take long. Well, once I got a good coach and I went from St. Joseph's right to Central Park. This is a public school. And then I had a coach. Yep. He happened to be an English teacher. That was his year. His name was Donald Punterman. And, but he knew basketball and he knew how to coach. And he started coaching me and coaching the team and all that stuff. And I got better, better, better, better. My parents actually paid attention to me a little bit. Not that they didn't, but they're just working their ass off all the time so much. And that's when I started getting into fights. You know, competitive fights on the court that led to the playground and all that stuff.

I mean, it was—

I want to ask you— I want to ask you about your comfort with conflict, but let's get to the things happening around you at the—

Recognition is the same thing you got. Yeah.

Yeah. At the beginning, it's recognition. And you've been getting recognition for all the time since. But people have gotten forgetful recently about what it is that you've done because your team wasn't— didn't matter the way it has last year. So let's start with the trade you made. And the anxiety about the trade. How close were you guys to getting Giannis before the trade deadline?

I hate to talk about, you know, trade talk and all that stuff. It's— sometimes it's— it's almost an unwritten law, you know, covenant that we all have as GMs. Let's not talk about it, okay? If you trade something, whatever it is, they don't want the details out. But, you know, Milwaukee and John Horst And Andy and I, you know, are really good friends. We've known John for a long time. And, you know, it's all part of the cabal of GMs and presidents and stuff. And so, and we had a lot of dialogue early, you know, before the trading deadline. And it didn't work at the 11th hour, whether it was, you know, negotiating or whatever it is. We didn't do anything until, you know, just prior to the draft.

May I ask the question a different way? Because it was reported that you, the group, felt like the trade was largely place until Milwaukee management or ownership stepped in at the last minute.

I don't know the back— I don't know the backstory there. I just know that, that they were very complimentary, but they said they wanted to wait. And that was it. And that's usually how it is in the game. And this is the way it's been ever since I've been here.

You've wanted him for a long time is the reason I'm asking the question. You've had him in your sights. Why specifically him?

Well, It's similar to what we did with LeBron and Chris Bosh and Dwyane. We won the title in 2006. After we won, Dwyane, LeBron, Chris Bosh, Joe Johnson, Amar'e Stoudemire all signed the same extensions and they were all gonna end in 2010. And so we just win it. The next year we lose in 4 games to Chicago in the first round, then the whole team breaks down. So we started to look at 2010 because we were gonna have space to bid on free agents with favorable rules. And so Andy and I just cleared space, kept clearing space, and thank God, and I hired Spo, and we drafted Beasley. We had Dwyane in MVP-like years. We made the playoffs those 2 years, which was great for Eric 'cause he needed that boost of confidence. And in 2010, I had the room to sign 3 guys, but I let various agents throughout the course of those 2 or 3 years of saving space that, "Just take a look at our room." I said, "You have to look at our space in 2010." And I talked to all of the agents who had free agents that year. Oh yeah, they only thought that they had room for 2 because we already had Dwyane.

He had bird rights. We ended up having exactly the amount of money, $48.6 million to sign 3 guys into the room. Okay? And they all knew that. And so when the window opened to start recruiting these guys, back then it was different. It was private planes, it was Mickey and Nick, it was, we were flying all over the place talking to everybody. That's when it was crazy. And so the same thing with Giannis, I never, I just looked at all these contracts. You always study the contracts and you see the really great players in the league, you know, who all line up with options in years that they might become free agents. And you start planning that. And so we started to plan for, I think Giannis's year was, and also Joker, the Joker is free. Donovan Mitchell was going to be free, but he signed an extension. And you just look at it, it's out there as you rebuild. And so that's what happened. That happened, then we started to have conversations just on other things, mostly about Bam because Alex Saridis is his agent. So you think about it, but there was never any real contact.

It was just thinking. They saw the space. Okay, maybe somebody wants to move.

But it may be self-evident. I wanted the basketball expertise explanation of what Giannis is through your eyes, what the comp is to him historically, why you're— I mean, it's, it's obvious numerically, but through your eyes, why this player the one that is the game changer that is similar to the last time you won a championship?

Well, he's a game changer like Zo and Tim, and we didn't win with them. Came close. That frustrated all the fans, but it gave them something compelling to look forward to, a battle every night over there for 5 years. But, and we couldn't complete the task. And then Zo got hurt, and then we ended up going through a couple of dry spells and, We drafted Crown Butler and then we drafted Dwyane. We signed Lamar Odom. We got Udonis Haslem. We had Brian Grant and Eddie Jones and we had a nice little team. And then we're able to get Shaq, you know? And so to me, greatness will help you even if it's a little older, you know, get to the promised land. So we traded for Shaq, gave up Lamar, a great young player. Gave up, you know, Karron, who I loved dearly. We had to give up Brian Grant and a first-round pick. That was it to get Shaq. And we won a title. I remember the whole plan to bring an 18-wheeler in and bring the big diesel in right in front of the arena. And he walked up the stairs. There had to be, what, 10,000 people there that day.

Helped you change everything, really.

Yes, it did. And he brought a big squirt gun out and he started blowing water on everybody. And so, It— that was a great moment, getting Shaquille. It pumped everything up. And it was the real deal because Dwyane was in his prime, without a doubt. And then we built a nice team around Shaquille, veterans that got it done. And there's muscle memory with older veteran players that even though they might be on a team losing, they're not performing at the level, you get them to that Kentucky Derby, and you get them to the home stretch, it kicks in.

Oh, but I thought of that. I'm like, I thought of that with— you've had young teams the last few years, but you've always won with older ones. Like, you've done some— you, you trust the old guy. You trust the old warriors a little bit more.

I do, I do. And it has nothing to do with young players, but today's young player is different, Dan. They're so much better, better coached, better drilled, uh nutrition, weight training, all of these things. I mean, this class right through the second round had a hell of a lot of great players in it. And I just think the manufacturing of the NBA player, you know, one day maybe our soccer game in the United States might rival that. There's just not enough investment. There's just too spread out, not enough programs. These young players are different and more comfortable with with young players that have talent and I can see the talent. I'll deal with their imperfections because of youth. But, you know, from that standpoint, you know, Giannis is right there with Shaq and the Big Three. You know, he's right there with, in some ways, with Bam in 2017 when we drafted him.

And Giannis, how many players in the sport, give me a number, not names, are more impactful than Giannis?

Not many. Not many. I place Giannis in the top 5 in the NBA. He came in in 2015 as the number 1 pick. And I remember his name coming up and I saw pictures of the guy and he was, you know, £180, about 6'8". A couple of people went over. Adam Simon saw him early, but you know, he's too raw. This guy's not ready. He had all kinds of issues just trying to get, you know, passports and visas and stuff. And it was very hard at that time. To actually get on a Greek team, but he was drafted anyway by Milwaukee because they saw something there. And Giannis is— his Greek name, basically that name in Greece is God is gracious. It's a very powerful name. And so it's very fortunate for us to get this guy who's talented, who's humble, who's successful. Who knows where his place is right now, and he just wants to win. And we've already put a pretty good cast of players around him.

Well, people are saying you'll need 18 months, this year won't be the year. I'm like, you don't know Pat Riley very well if you think he's got an expectation that it's 2 years from now.

Yeah. Well, that mental part of 18 months from now, for me and for Andy and for our organization, will take care of the doubters who project 18 months Our mentality is we want to win now, just like everybody else who thinks they're good wants to win now. And that's what we want to do. And so we're gonna— whoever we bring in will help us win now. You know, 10, 11, 12 players. And when you think about what we gave up for them, when you go back to the Big Three, this was really something that happened. And a lot of people don't understand. When we signed the Big Three, and LeBron, Chris, and Dwyane were all in my office with their agents, and their wives were in the family room waiting for the big announcement, stage show where they're gonna rise up in smoke and everything. We're negotiating final details of their contract. You know, back then you could sign a 4-year contract and then he's free, they're all free. And you can take him right into room. You don't have to give up anything. At the last minute, God bless him, I love him to this day, you know, Leon Rose, who's in New York doing a great job.

He represented the Browns.

At the last minute it became a trade? At the last minute it was gonna be free agent, you weren't gonna have to give up anything, and then all of a sudden at the last minute before they go on stage, They wanted 6-year deals.

4 years, there's an option, and 2 years because they wanted security in case they got hurt.

Well, anyhow.

John Rose, God bless him.

And he said, "Pat, my guy's worth it." I said, "But you, and tell the players, the 6 draft picks I had to give up." 6! 4 first-round picks, couple of slots.

At the last minute, though? Yes. You got played?

And then, yeah. No, but Andy and— And I went to work, and it was like extortion at the time, because that's what they wanted, man, you know? But, you know, I get it. And so we gave up 6 picks, and I said to Leon, I said to Henry Thomas, and I said to the players, I said, "Do not come through that door. Don't walk through that door when we're losing and you don't think you have enough." Because these 6 picks in the next year or two would have gotten me 3 or 4 veteran guys to come in before Shane and Ray and Anderson and, you know, Richard Lewis.

Well, so that first year was the weakest version of that Heat team. You don't believe that's going to be the same case here, right? You're going to be able to build around Giannis. You have some limitations, but for the, for the audience to understand, you're not playing for 2 years from now.

No, I'm not. And, and I don't want the team to think that way. I want them to believe in, in the roster that we have. I think it's, as I said, a mentality more than anything else. You don't rush to it, you You go out there and compete every night, but we have the pieces, the main pieces. Everybody talks about shooting. That's not the main priority right now, is another real playmaker, you know. I mean, Tyler was great. You know, Norm Powell. These guys could score at the end of games, get their own shot and stuff. So we need a little more of that. We got a great power rotation, and we got great depth. So— we were better off, you know, because back in 2010, it went right to the minimums. And a lot of guys, and that hurt us against Dallas. We didn't have the depth against Dallas when they beat us in 2011. And even though we had a chance to win, we should have won game 2. And if we won game 2, I think we would have won that series. You remember that 15-point lead that we blew and all the t-shirts and— The tabernacle, the Mormon tabernacle of white team came out.

I had to have a Speedo, unfortunately, because I lost a bet to Charles Barkley because I didn't think there was any chance that that team could lose to Dallas.

Well, it was one game, and then we couldn't stop Dirk in game 4, 5, and 6. We could stop him, but we couldn't stop him at the moment of truth. That's what happened. And he was truly at the top of his game. Plus, they had Jason Kidd. They had a really good team stacked out. Jason Terry, you know, they were, uh, they were really good.

Last year on the misery scale for you, uh, how did that feel? And, uh, beyond the misery, when I take you back to Bam blocking Jayson Tatum at the rim, what do you think are the mistakes made between that moment and what last year was that allowed Boston and some teams in the Eastern Conference to get past you?

You know, getting Jimmy Butler was a big, big play for us. And we had a very good team. I gave up two first-round picks to get Dragic, Goran Dragic. And right after LeBron left, and I thought having Wade and Dragic, who was in his prime, and Chris Bosh and Udonis and whoever else we had at 3 at the time, would be very competitive.

And it was competitive.

That 4-year run without Chris right after LeBron left was muted. And that's when we drafted Bam and Tyler in '17 and '19. Then we got Jimmy with Dragic and we went to the bubble and got to the Finals the first year. So it was very competitive during that time. But we started drafting, you know, 18 to 27 and keeping these young players and getting some veterans. And so how we got from 2019 in the bubble in Butler to here was the accumulation or the thought process of getting young players in the middle of the draft, developing the hell out of them, which Spo and his staff does, preserving our picks with the exception of one, you know, which was given up in the Rozier deal.

But not the way you'd ever done business before that. No, no. Ever in your career, right? You had never done business that way. I'm going to draft in the middle of the first round. I'm going to develop those players. No. Keep my picks.

If you're going to do it the right way, then you're going to be drafting in the lottery. You're going to really tank because that's how teams like OKC and San Antonio— you think about their key players are number 1, number 2, number 3, a 4th pick. You know, they had 3 or 4 years of lottery hits and, and they built the base of really good young players who are stars. They weren't— you'd have to develop them.

That's why— that's where I thought you guys fell short, in that Bam and Tyler Tyler ended up achieving to the very greatest of their ability, and Boston had two guys, top-five guys, who went higher than they did.

So I should've lost a little more. That's what I should've done. But I love Bam, and we got him at 13, Tyler at 14, or vice versa. So they were lottery picks at the back end of the lottery. And both of them played to that level, were very talented, and—

You could say they both overachieved to where they were measured, just by their measurements.

Well, somebody has to be successful on a team. I mean, you designate two athletic guys at different positions. One's a real scorer, a shooter who got better and better. And Bam is just a force of nature in defense and rebounding. And, you know, for a couple of years, had a hard time scoring. And now he's pretty accomplished, you know, from that standpoint. But we never had a chance other than Wade and other than Beasley second pick in the draft, Wade the fifth pick in the draft, ever had that. So if I wanted to do that, then you got to lose like I did in 2008 and take it right to the bottom. And then we lose the lottery roll and we end up getting the second pick instead of getting— we wanted Derrick Rose, everybody wanted Derrick. And I like Mike too. I mean, I thought Mike could really play, but that's when we start planning for for 2010.

Do you regard anything as the greatest mistake, though, made in the time?

You'd—

it'd be acceptable for you to think when Bam is blocking Tatum at the rim, hey, we'll compete with Boston at the top of this division for as long as I can keep my health. Tyler Herro, a 37-point performance. He'll grow into the player and I will compete against Tatum and Brown for the next 5 years. What are the— what, looking back, what do you think is the greatest error of vision that is in all of that time that allows Boston to sneak past you?

You? I was always very good in my mind with having a pick every other year. In the year that we didn't, that we'd sign a free agent or somebody. And so that's not— that's why we never really became, you know, really bad because, you know, with our youth thing, because we always had a pick or acquired a pick or got a second-round pick. But, uh, we had like 5 picks in a row, you know, from 2019.

You did give up a lot of assets. I think this is the most all-or-nothing trade of your career because this is the first one that risks— if Giannis gets hurt or something terrible happens, the team's gonna be bad after Pat Riley leaves, which is never a risk I've seen you take.

I don't think about that. I'm not thinking about, you know, anything about anybody getting hurt or anything. I get where you're coming from, but you gotta have a positive mindset right now that, you know, you see this future in front of us with Giannis and Bobby Portis and Bam. You know, Nico is really a good young player, and I think he's gonna have his chance to break through in a different way. You still got Wiggs and Alfontecchio. You got Larson, Mitchell. You know, we got a good group beside Tim Hardaway Jr. You can't think about injuries, though.

The only reason I bring it up is because the sport seems to be breaking its players more than it ever has before. Like, testing the ligaments of these people and the bone structure. The way the game's being played seems like it makes it riskier. But to ask the question again, do you believe you've made a more all-or-nothing trade than this one in your career? You're not averse to risk.

The Big Three turned out to be an all-or-nothing trade because it wasn't— it would have been an all-or-nothing signing, you know, not give up anything. And but giving up 6 picks, we didn't have to give up players, but we lost players because we had to get rid of players and get their space. And so those players went somewhere else at the time.

Oh, you— so you had a different— if you hadn't had to give up the picks through what is being— through the extortion, portion, you had a plan that had all of these other players in place that would have been available to you.

Discussed.

Oh, you were building a real all-star team.

Signing trades.

Well, not just those 3 guys, but you already had in place beyond Mike Miller and Udonis Haslem an assortment of things that could have happened with those 6 picks.

Absolutely. Yeah, you could think about and already have discussions about, you know, trading players, doing sign-and-trades or something if you could, if the rules would allow us. But we had the ammunition to have people come to us and say, hey, we "this guy, well, he'll fit in right here with these 3 guys. We'll give you a first and we'll give you a swap or something." And so you take some money off somebody's hands. You might have to send something back, but you'd have to sign a few more contracts to be able to send some money back.

I just had no idea until now that your super team that was already a super team that was the most super of teams would've been even more of a super team.

At the last minute. And at the last minute, I said, "Leah, don't do this to me. Don't, don't, don't. We're gonna take you right in the room." That was the moment of maximum leverage.

They're getting ready with their wives in the other room. The stage is about to come. That's good work from him as an agent. Which brings me to the question, how did it feel?

It never stopped us though, Leon and I, from going to Springsteen concerts and hanging out in the pit, you know, all the time.

I would have thought that what happened with Leon now would be something that would make the competition stoked. I don't know how you feel about the Knicks watching, or how was it watching the Knicks win the Finals?

It was, you know what, it was, they were great. They were amazing. They really were amazing. And he has built something incredibly effectively solid, you know, from that standpoint. And, you know, getting Jalen was the first chip, and then going out and getting Anunoby. And he gave up to get these guys, and going out and getting Bridges and getting KAT, those 4 guys, and Harden. And having then built the bench. And they already had Mitchell Robinson there, a very, very effective guy, but he was hurt all the time. But the last couple years he wasn't. And I thought he did the best job probably for the team that he did was getting guys like Clarkson, Bernardo, these guys that— these point guards that he got, Shamet. Alvarado. Alvarado. But he's like a tornado. You know, he's unbelievable. And those guys helped win games, or big moments in big games, in pivotal times in the second half, when they were naked without KAT or without Jalen.

So you enjoyed watching it though?

I'm happy for them.

From a sports and a team perspective, them playing together, I would've thought you wouldn't have liked it very much.

Well, some people are like that. You know, there might have been a little bit of smack in me about, you know, you know, that's a rival of ours, you know.

And but age has mellowed you. If you were— if you viewed that with no acid boiling in your heart, at least not boiling, no.

But, you know, I did not want them to not win because of any other reason, because I really like Wes and like, uh, like Leon and some of the people up there, you know. I did spend 4 years there, and contrary to how I left, left, there's not hate there. You know, it was just a situation that didn't work out.

Where is your relationship as we speak right now with LeBron James? What has thawed over the last dozen years?

It's just thawed. You know, I've seen him at championship fights. I've seen him around, you know, run into him at All-Star Games. We had a great embrace. When they honored me with a statue out there. You know, seeing he and Savannah, you know, in the stands at certain things. She's always been a really gracious, wonderful person. And LeBron and I, you know, we haven't talked much, but you let go of that stuff. You know, I mean, I was very disappointed because I thought we were looking at a dynasty. Or something dynastic. And we now had a chance to add other players to it in '14. And when he left, it was very, very disappointing. Think about it. I mean—

No, I know you were hurt. I know you were hurt. And you can be proud and stubborn. So at some point here, you found forgiveness.

Absolutely. And I don't want to hang on to that. You know, I want to see him somewhere on the golf course one day, even though I don't play golf. Or something, or see him somewhere and not be able to go up to a guy that, you know, that I developed a great relationship with and all the people that were around him. And we celebrated together. I see pictures over in Championship Valley of us hugging and pouring champagne on each other's head. Those are moments that are etched in your mind forever. And because somebody leaves you because he wanted to go back back to Cleveland for the right reasons, I think. You know, I mean, that's his hometown. He'd left them. There was a lot of controversy. And I think that was the right move if he was going to go somewhere. If he went somewhere else, maybe got more upset. But he went home. And he got that scarlet letter off his back. You know, because a lot of people were angry up there. And he won that back. 4 trips to the finals. They won a world championship. And then It was okay. Mea culpa.

I came back, won a title, and now I'm going to go to LA and build my brand. But he did more than that. He went out there, won a championship in his second year. So he's an incredible athlete. Come on. What, 22 years or 25? I don't even know how many years.

24? An unprecedented athlete, given what he's doing at his age.

Only Kareem and Kobe.

Kareem was scoring 10 a game at this age. He wasn't LeBron yet.

No, no, no, he was not. But he lasted over 20 years because he never got hurt. LeBron lasted this long because he's never had major injuries, never. He's one of the most unique athletes ever. And he dedicates his life to his body and to fun and his family. He's really loyal in a lot of ways. And just because he left the Heat you know, doesn't mean that he's not loyal to that time that he was here.

What is your expectation going forward with him? I don't know.

I really don't. I can't— I have nothing, as I think probably, you know, everybody else that, you know, had an opportunity to talk with him are just sort of waiting, you know, from that standpoint. So this is a man's decision, and you let him make that decision. He has the right to do that. And So I'm not, I'm not calling Rich every day and bugging him. He'll make a decision.

What was last year like for you in terms of disappointment, in terms of you still doing this at this age and it getting you out of bed in the morning because you find inspiration and passion all around it?

Well, I love the people that I work with. You know, they've been with me 30 years and Very few of them have left. Some have left for better jobs or whatever it is, or they retired, but they're all still passionate about it. They come to work every day and all the department heads, they— I've given up control, which was the hardest thing for me to do and for you to give up control of almost everything and every decision and every marker, everything. And Andy runs his department. Tim Donovan runs his department.

They're all people you taught. Like, it— you had to give it up to them at some point. They're all formed adults who are very capable at their jobs.

I got it, I got it. And, and they were very good. They were very young at the time, and, and they just grew into these positions. Adam Simon, Eric Amsler, you know, all of these, you know, Spoh, you know, all of them grew into it. I never taught them, Dan. I just led by example. I never had big meetings with my staff upstairs in BBO and put them on the wall and give them one of those motivational speech. You know, we treat each other with kindness. You know, don't say the wrong things to people. Just respect everybody's lane. And if it's an all hands on deck thing like it was yesterday, everybody jumps in. You know, half the people were out in Vegas when we We had this introduction of Bobby Portis and Giannis, and they just took over, and I didn't have to do anything but get up there and be a horrible MC. That's not my job.

How hard was it to give up the power, or some of that power that you've given up? Because you overstated a bit. There are 5 people for a long time that have run the Miami Heat. And you have been the hood ornament on all of it.

I don't say give up the power. I don't think I ever had it. I was given a title by Mickey as the head coach and president. President, head coach.

You got 10% of the team, though.

I don't even go there. But the point is that I never, ever tried to wield power. I hate that word, power. Somebody puts you— Leadership, as I've said many times, and it's an interactive relationship. It really is. Leadership is an interactive relationship whereby you're hired or put in a position or rise to that position or somehow get there. Could be lucky or whatever it is, but you're put in a position to get a result. That's it. And then it's based on trust, developing a real trust with everybody, and how you gain that trust is through being sincere with them, is that let them know that I want you to get out of this game as much as I can help you get, for you, not for me. And I want them to be competent, so I do teach. They have to be competent in order to gain each other's trust at what they do. In other words, players will not allow coaches to coach them who don't know how to coach. They know immediately this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. About. And so coaches had to learn how to develop and teach players and talk to players, and it's not easy.

And then the reliability thing, which is a contradiction, the ultimate contradiction in leadership in sports, is that while you're preaching loyalty and you're preaching trust, in the same sentence you will tell them, I will have to trade you one day. And that's part of the business. So if your name pops up in the trade, and if it's just a rumor, because everything's a rumor today, I mean, it really is. And it emanates from social media. I'm not blaming them, and online and podcast, and, you know, they got to get it out, and it's not true. And I tell them, I said, it's just going to happen. Don't get upset. Don't get— Tyler It affected Tyler for many years. Every single trade had him in it. Every single trade had somebody else in it. And so, reliability is important, but, you know, there's a question mark to it because they have to understand this is a business, and you gotta teach them that. Same thing with your staff, yeah.

Was there indeed resentment about the fact that Bam is the guy who is taken care of by the organization the best because he gets the money, he's the pillar, or he's the untradeable piece who's never in the trade rumors?

There's no double standards with us. Bam gets treated just like everybody else, and he doesn't want that. And so, if that's the impression out there, you know, it was the same impression that people should have about Alonzo as an anchor and about Tim. Him and about Dwyane and about Shaq.

Well, but some guys are more—

bam!

I get it.

You, like, Udonis was an extension of you on the court. Bam's an extension of you. Alonzo, an extension of you.

I never coached, uh, I never coached the Big Three, or I never coached, uh, you know, it's been 18 years, Dan, you know. So, you know, these, these are extensions of Spo, who has a little my DNA in him, and he's had to adapt to a contemporary game and a contemporary player who has a different mindset. These players have different mindsets and how they learn is different, you know? And a lot of their information comes from the internet. I'm not saying that's bad. It gives you information. I mean, you can go on, you know, on Blinkist and get the top 15 books and listen to them in 15 minutes, and you'll learn something. Like, did you know that in 1950, right after World War II, there's 150 million people in America? 150 million. Now there's 350 million people in 75 years. And where did they all congregate? They all went to Miami and New York and Chicago and LA and San Francisco. And these, these cities are bursting clean with people. I mean, look at it down here.

Ours is too crowded.

Yeah, when I came here, it was beautiful. I mean, it's like, you know, there are no skyscrapers. Then there's a great story. It's a horrible story, actually, about our major cities. In LA, the number one main water pipe up in Sunset— did you see that?

And with the sinkhole.

Yeah, yeah. But you know, it was put there in 1916. Underground. What was it made out of, clay?

That was an excellent distraction tactic you just played when I asked you about whether there was resentment toward BAM. You took me on a tour of the 1950s, a sinkhole, a pipe, but you said there are no double standards.

It's called an excursion.

It really was. It was expertly done. But you don't, your, the news arrives that BAM has hit Tyler Hero. How to you? How does that news arrive?

And what is I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I, I didn't like it for Bam, uh, I didn't even know he was upset because, you know, I read it and I didn't like it. I didn't like what I read. And, and, and I think, you know, that those kind of comments, you know, you know, and that's what, as I say, social media has consequences. And, and so he got offended by And I don't think they had time to talk about it or anything like that, but it happened.

I was curious, excuse me for interrupting you. I'm sure people want to hear more from you on this than from me, but I was curious how you would react to it just because I find your relationship with conflict to be fascinating. All around conflict, the cauldron that you create to make people sharper, and the fact that you have told Shaq and Zo when they get in your face, that's fine, say fuck you to me if you want, but you better teach me something. Yeah, that's right.

Right. Right. You know, so I wasn't involved in that. I never made a comment about it to either one, which normally I probably would've reached out during the season. Hey, we don't wanna do that. And yeah, settle it man to man. But, you know, people don't understand in all sports, they don't get into the locker room, even though there's more access, that there's always skirmishes, pushing matches, punches thrown, And fights, all out, that have happened. And they never get out. But then all of a sudden, everybody comes together, they bring it in, and they look at each other. I say, "You guys got this out of your system? Are you okay?" And they go, "We're good, Coach. We know the territory now. I know mine, he knows his." I said, "Fine. As long as you guys We'll do it together. You know what I mean? So, there's a lot of conflict that happens. It's a normal— It's not normal, but it happens because of the passion. And both of them are very competitive men. And I was sorry to see that it happened. And I was even more sorry to see what happened with Bam.

And it was over with, and that's it. And they'll carry on. The league's not gonna do anything about it. But somewhere they'll patch it up.

What do you mean though, you were more sorry about it for what happened with Bam?

Yeah, that Bam actually took a little bit of a shot at him. And I think what people saw on social media, and I don't know what they saw on social media, it's over. Conflict, skirmishes, passion, things that are said today. And even players are addicted to social media. And when you start going on X and and start responding to somebody who's criticizing you in some way, or he's on a burner phone, or however that happened, turned into one screenshot, somebody, you know, things can happen. And so that's the world that we live in right now. And it seems like there's more vitriol than there's ever been.

I'm gonna let you go even though I can talk to you for hours and there's not enough time to talk to you. I was surprised to hear you articulate the level of anxiety you had before everything that needed to happen to get this—

I was waiting.

This trade done. Walk me through the anxiety of— you're this caretaker for this organization. You're under here, I think, more criticism than you've ever been under because you've largely been immune in South Florida. You've earned it, an immunity largely from very much criticism. But here, toward what has to be the end of your career, it's gotten a little louder because you've created the standards and the expectations. Hey, it's winning or misery. Second place isn't good enough. Making the finals isn't good enough. Your level of anxiety, walk me through it.

When I was talking about anxiety, it was not, uh, what Andy and I were doing prior to making or completing the trade. That was a little bit exciting, up and down, but you know you're close, in and out, other teams, your names, and you know, I mean, you want to do this, you've decided that we're going to do this as an organization, so let's, let's pursue it. But once we made made the deal on draft night, I had to wait until July 6th, anything could happen and blow the thing up. And so when we could officially announce the trade by making the trade call to the league on the 6th, it was less anxiety. It was over. It was done. And we were really, really happy about it. And then all of a sudden, usually Yanis would be in town and Bobby would be in town and everybody would be here and do their physicals, do their press conferences, and then we'd get off to our summer vacation. Chris and I had to cancel a week in Europe. Oh, you'll never forgive him. You'll never forgive him. I told him about it. But I was fine.

I just had to wait for the 15th because his brother was getting married and he had some other things going. And yesterday was the culmination of a year and a half of thought and work and talking And this is not a Pat decision. This is an organizational decision with Mickey and Nick and myself, Andy Spoh, Adam Simon. It's not me anymore saying, I want this done. No, I'm a lot more open to that. So I don't worry about the criticism, Dan, anymore. I don't. And it always used to be justified. In objective throughout my 30 years by all writers here, you, Edwin, I don't care who it was, Hank, Joe, I throw out the old names, and Cody and Dave Hyde, all of those men that I would stand and listen to their questions. I looked at those men as professional journalists. And when I read the story, I said, "That's true, but it's great writing, and he's got a point there." And I wasn't offended by it. I don't think I ever went back at anybody.

You've always been very good about criticism. Remarkably good at taking criticism.

But I think real good journalists, sports journalists, you know, if you want to go after somebody, go after somebody. You can be one of those guys.

But that's real confidence though, when the criticism doesn't actually bother you.

Well, it bothers me a little, but it does bother me. It wasn't because the next day it's over with and it's gone. Now it's amplified, as you know. I mean, it's amplified. It's amplified like loud because once a really good journalist will write something about you that you respect, that might have something in there, a bite, a sound bite, that then it gets down to social media and they make more out of it than it should be.

Well, the part—

It's bad for you guys.

The part where I could imagine it would agitate you if it were getting to you in any sort of way is that you're 81 and there's some ageism that forgets your history and the resume and might suggest that you haven't been able to evolve through all the kinds of basketball and then point and say he's 81. I imagine the old warrior in you would want to bite the head off of those people because, you know, really, really, you don't think I have that anymore.

I get it. I get it. I get that. And to me, I understand that Get the old man out of there, okay? You know, it doesn't make me want to go back and dye my hair and, you know, and get the bags out from under my eyes and get this thing here that my wife wants me to get fixed, you know, get it out of there. No, age is beautiful if you show some grace in growing older and at the same time having people people like Mickey and Nick, you know, Madeleine, who say, "Just keep doing what it is you love doing." And that's why I'm happy for the franchise to be able to bring in a Giannis. You know, Giannis.

Do you even think of retirement? Like, I'm not even gonna ask you about mortality and aging. Retirement. Do you spend any time thinking about retirement?

I think about mortality because, you know, where Chris and I are going, we're going over to Europe to get our blood scrubbed and get all these toxins out of our blood. Earn the longevity and health in as much as we can be to try to extend in a way that you're vital and you're doing something that is meaningful. You know, I don't think about that. I just think about the next day and what we're gonna do. And one day it will happen. One day I'll step aside.

I don't believe you.

No.

I don't believe you. I think you're lying.

You're gonna have to hang around.

I think, no, but I am hanging around. I've been hanging around. You've been saying one day I'm gonna do it. Like 10 years after he's gone, he's still going to be sitting in that seat. He's still going to be around. They're going to feel his hot breath, mad because they didn't do this in the third quarter.

And I still do that. I go back to every, every single play that was game-defining for us in big games. I remember them all, but I don't, I don't think about it. So you stay in the things that you're doing that you love, even the ones that bring you anxiety and bring you misery. If you love doing it, that's part of life. I mean, you gotta deal in life with winning and/or losing all the time. Everybody at every level, at whatever you do, you gotta be able to deal with difficulties. As M. Scott Peck wrote in the book, "The Road Less Traveled," my favorite book, my favorite beginning statement.

The first sentence, 3 words.

Life is difficult. I've changed it to life is a bitch, okay? Excuse me, but life's difficult. And he goes on to teach you that once you understand that life is difficult, once you really understand that and you go through it and the ups and downs, then it becomes normal. And then when it becomes normal, you can carry on.

Admire him for a lot of different reasons. His basketball credentials are unimpeachable, but his wisdom over the years has been a precious treasure. Thank you, Pat, for spending this time with us.

Amen.

Even though I know you hate those podcasts.

I don't hate them. I just don't listen to them. Okay. And good luck to you.

Okay.

And all in all the, what do they call them now?

The shipping container. The shipping container. You can remember that you scored 19 points when you were 6th grade, but you can't remember the names of anybody in the shipping container.

Well, they rotate all the time.

It's because you don't care about them and you shouldn't.

No, because there should be a cargo container. That's different than a shipping container.

Is it?

How's it different? Well, a shipping container is just one of the pieces on a big cargo ship. So it's a cargo. So you want them promoted to a larger—

so that they could be the whole cargo ship.

That's right.

Pat, thank you. Always a pleasure. I say that literally and always.

Okay. And you too. Forever and for always, man.