Transcript of South Beach Sessions - Brian Tyler Cohen

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Hello and welcome to South Beach Sessions. This man, Brian Tyler Cohen, is a pillar of the new media. He has a No Lies podcast and he's also got a new book out. He's a bestselling author as well. His new book is The Day After, uh, How to Wield Power in the Post-Trump World. What was the second title you were gonna choose for that? What finished, what finished in second place to the title of your book?

You know, interestingly, I, I, my initial thought on the title for the book was gonna be about just power and I wanted to get the title of just power, but I think it's been been done a lot, and so you have to kind of play that game and think about that stuff a little bit.

I will start off with something really light. Are we all doomed?

Ah, so look, I wouldn't be doing the work that I do if I thought we were all doomed. I would be off on a beach somewhere just enjoying what little time we have left, but I do weirdly, perhaps naively, have a lot of optimism for the future, and that's because even when kind of, it feels so despairing. Everything around us feels so despairing, especially living in Los Angeles. This is a very blue state in a very blue city. There is, there's a lot going wrong in government, and yet people continue to stay engaged. People continue to vote in these off-year elections and special elections, and Democrats are overperforming. So even when all of the hurdles that we have to overcome feel so overbearing, the fact that people are still in it and still fighting gives me a lot of hope for what a post-2026 and ultimately post-Trump world could look like.

What did you want to be when you grew up?

I wanted to be— well, first I wanted to be a police officer and then I wanted to be in the entertainment industry. So the police officer thing kind of lasted just, you know, when I was young. But once I got into middle school and then high school, I really loved the entertainment industry and I wanted to act. I wanted to be in the business part of it. They kind of swapped off. But I moved out here to work in the industry. And even now, when I have nothing to do with the entertainment industry, I still love it. I mean, it is— maybe it's because I work in politics and it's so toxic that that is my respite, that falling into these stories and movies and TV shows, that's my respite from the everyday toxicity of being online and dealing with politics. But I just, I love these stories. I love that I live in a city where we export culture not only to the rest of the country, but to the world. And a lot of my work as far as California politics is concerned, revolves around protecting the industry out here and increasing our tax credits so that we can put people to work and doing the job that I think they do so well here in this city above all other cities, you know, so that we can keep telling these stories.

But what's the story of how you came here to first act?

So initially I'd actually come here and my first job in LA was I was the assistant to the to the drama and comedy managers at Fox. So Fox Broadcasting Company, this was like Simpsons and all that stuff. And so I did that for about a year and then caught the acting bug after that. So immediately pivoted from the industry aspect of things to now I'm going to cattle calls for cars.com and Doritos and whatever else I could get.

So how does it happen though that you end up here chasing that? What were you doing before and how do you make the decision to, devote your life to acting, and then how does it shift?

So I was— I went to high school in Jersey, went to college in Pennsylvania, so always East Coast, but just, I mean, obviously exposed, as anybody in this country is, to the industry. I have a family member out here who was a writer in the industry for 30 years, and so that was my little window into what went on here. And so I would come out to visit, and it's hard growing up in Jersey, in the regular suburbs, and getting a window into what Hollywood looks like and not being drawn into it. So it just became like, this is what I'm going to do. And weirdly, I went to a school that was business and— and it was like a business and engineering school and did that, had a great time, immediately came out to L.A. and didn't use my degree at all. Like my business degree. I mean, I did like marketing classes and whatnot, but just wanted to be out here and start learning the industry. And this This industry, the entertainment industry, is something where you could do all the schooling in the world and it's not gonna prepare you in the same way that being on set is gonna prepare you or being surrounded by these people is gonna prepare you.

This is the kind of thing where you just have to get thrown into it and sink or swim, and that's the best way to learn in Hollywood.

What are the details you remember from the early days of struggling?

Oh man, you know, it is, I think the main thing is, and this actually lends itself to why I started doing my own content online, is you have to wait for a lot of people to say yes. Like, your success, your ability to survive in this industry relies on finding representation that's willing to say yes to representing you, finding casting directors that are willing to A, call you in, B, who like what you have to say and passing you on to producers or directors. Then if that happens, then you need to make sure that the producers or the director actors like you. I've booked stuff and gotten cut before we shoot. I've booked stuff, shot, and that's gotten cut before it's gone to air. So your success relies on so many other people buying in and being on board. And I think that, you know, now it feels like, well, you could just do it. You can just do whatever you want. If you wanna put yourself online, you just do it. But, you know, in 2010, 16 years ago, that wasn't the case. You know, you didn't have the freedom and the autonomy that content creators have today.

So you're a little bit at the mercy of how the industry was. Now it's obviously changed so quickly that if you want to get success, you put yourself online and you get it. You know, you hustle for it and there's so many more avenues for exposure. But back then, you really are at the mercy of everybody in the industry and there are so many gatekeepers. And that was, I think, the most frustrating and at times discouraging parts of being in Hollywood.

What's worth noting about your work on Math Bites and Lethal Seduction?

So those were little projects. Just, you know, Math Bites I think was a Danica McKellar project that she did. I think what's worth noting about these little projects that nobody's ever heard of but that still remain, you know, in kind of obscurity on my IMDb page is that it's important to say yes and give yourself opportunities. And you'd be so surprised at how saying yes to one little project introduces who then does their own project and remembers you. I mean, that's what the industry is. It is all relationships. Sure, you know, talent is necessary, but there's a lot of talented people. And the talented person that made sure to foster these relationships is gonna go a lot farther than somebody who has also a ton of raw talent but doesn't know anybody.

Did you feel like you were succeeding? Did you feel like you were failing? Were you doubting your decision? Was there any struggle when it came to money or, earning?

Yeah, you know, it's— I, I hold myself to a really high standard, and, you know, I did really well in school, and so I know what success looks like. And so even in opportunity, even in those opportunities, in those moments where I would book a commercial or book, you know, a co-star on a TV show, it's still hard to feel like you are succeeding when you're surrounded by people who have so much more. Like, you're always looking at somebody else who who got a bigger role, who got a guest star while you got a co-star. Or if you get a guest star, those people got series regulars, or they got paid more, or they're working more often, or they got better press, or they got a billboard, you know what I mean?

Comparison is the thief of joy, right?

Absolutely, and in this industry, in this town of Los Angeles where you're surrounded by it, you're immersed in it, it's hard not to compare yourself to somebody else or to everybody else. So I think deep down, even though you can have those moments of joy where you book something, however small it might be, it's hard not to say, there's still a long way to the top of the mountain. So yeah, I mean, everything is hard in those moments. Making enough money is difficult. Getting enough credits to get good representation is difficult. It all kind of just piles up. When it rains, it pours. But the flip side of that is when it doesn't, you are in a drought.

And so how long did you try it for? When did you give up? How did you give up? And what did the death of that dream feel like?

The death of the dream, weirdly, was actually kind of great and freeing. I gave up because I moved out here kind of on a temporary basis roughly around 2010, permanently in 2012, and did it until about 2017, 2018. So almost a decade, a little less than a decade, and did commercials, did a few little TV shows. There were lots of films that never saw the light of day and hopefully never will at this point. But I had started doing political content shortly after Trump got elected and was writing, putting stuff out on Facebook. I started making videos that I would put on YouTube to tens of people. And that kind of fed my soul in a way that going in and doing a Doritos commercial wouldn't or doing a Honda commercial wouldn't. And so those things were important and those were stepping stones to succeeding in the industry, and so you just gotta do 'em. And if somebody gives you an opportunity, who was I to say no to any opportunity? So if there was a commercial that I had the opportunity to audition for, absolutely. You say yes to everything. I never felt at any point that I was too good for any opportunity, no matter how small.

But obviously they don't feed my soul. And then when, you know, things kind of upended themselves in the political space, I started writing, I started publishing on Facebook, I started shooting videos, and that fed my soul a lot more. It was completely unpaid, but at least I was getting to say something that wasn't 2 lines that were written for me promoting like a car or shoes or something like that. So, and that took off pretty quickly. So, you know, I started doing political content roughly 2017, 2018. By 2019, 2020, it was, you know, I was reaching critical mass in terms of viewership and reaching hundreds of thousands of people per video. And I remember I did one last audition and it was what we call a cattle call, which is they call everybody in And sometimes you might even go into the audition room with 10 other people. And, you know, they just kind of want to see what you look like and make sure that you have, you know, a neutral accent, whatever it may be. And I spent an hour in the waiting room, went in, did some whatever audition, walked out, called my agent, and I said, I think I'm done.

And they were like, yeah, we figured that was coming because they had started getting calls inquiring about booking me on YouTube shows or political shows. And that wasn't really what they did. They were all theatrical or commercial. So, you know, from that point on, it was all politics. And I'm glad I did it. You know, it was hard. I have a ton of respect for people in the industry who continue to do that work every single day. I know what that hustle is like. It's not easy. And again, like, I love the industry so much. So I'm glad that I got to be, you know, a small part of it in my little corner of the world. But this feeds my soul in a way that that acting never did.

That last cattle call, were you defeated? Do you remember any of the sort of sadness items on the clarity of, yeah, this isn't for me anymore?

Yeah, I remember sitting, you know, I remember sitting for a long time and things were just happening. And I remember being on Twitter. This was pre-X Twitter and just seeing the world moving quickly. And it just felt like I was, you know, the dichotomy of how quickly things were moving in politics versus physically sitting in that waiting room and just doing nothing with a bunch of other people who were, you know, some combination of desperate and defeated and hopeful. You know, it's how the industry is. You know, it just— I just felt like I can't be spending my time here doing this, that there's other things that I could be better spending my time at. And now, obviously, as I've gotten busier and busier, Triage-ing my time has kind of been a major theme of how I operate on a day-to-day basis, but that was, I think, the beginnings of it is how can I best spend my time? And thinking about how things were changing so rapidly in politics, it just wasn't going to be sitting in a room waiting for a commercial audition to call me in so that I can show them my— there's this thing you do for commercial auditions where you show them your hands to make sure you have all your digits.

And like, I mean, it's just, so, yeah.

You have to, I mean.

Oh, 100%. So it's called a slate, and you go in, you say your name, usually your name, height, whether you're union or non-union, and you show them your hands, and that's, and front of your hands, back of your hands, and then you turn profile, profile, and that's how it goes. That's what a slate is, but I've asked, like, why is it that you show your hands? And it's because they wanna make sure that if you're doing products or whatever, that you have all of your digits.

That seems—

Reasonable.

Yeah, I guess. But it also seems inequitable. Somebody with 9 digits all of a sudden has an—

Totally. That's unfair. Yeah, I mean, look, I'm sure there are also products that specifically call for people with less than 10 digits.

An advantage in those situations.

If you have less than 10, you're a shoo-in for those auditions.

I'm less sure that there are products that ask for somebody with 6 digits. Yeah. But we can agree to disagree.

Correct.

Yeah. When you say desperate and defeated and hopeful, it's also where everyone is right now on America, minus the hope in some instances.

Yeah, and you know, a lot of— it is interesting because I kind of find my way into these spaces where people feel a lot of the same emotions regardless of where I work. You know, whether it's the entertainment industry where people are struggling, or whether it's politics where I report every day on people who are also struggling. So there is that— So there is definitely that kind of similarity between those two.

But when you're transitioning, it's just because you're kind of outraged, right? You're not thinking career at this point. No. You're thinking, I need to express myself here. I need to be heard.

It wasn't paid for years. I mean, I got my very first start writing pieces for the community section in HuffPost. That was unpaid. Putting videos on Facebook and YouTube, I wasn't monetized. I didn't really know anything about monetization, so that was unpaid. It was just my way of kind of, you know, doing what I love to do. I certainly wasn't getting paid enough to live acting, so it's not like I was leaving one lucrative career and taking a big hit. It was all just doing whatever, you know, just being a 20-something and trying to figure out where I belonged in my career and in the world.

Did you feel for a decade like you were failing?

I really enjoyed it. Like, I loved being in the industry, and I knew I was green in the industry, so I measured— my expectations were measured. Like, I didn't think that I would come in and start booking roles. I had one manager at one point who would send me in for leads of TV shows, and I remember thinking, like, I shouldn't be going out for leads of TV shows. I should be going out for co-stars and maybe guest stars. So I was acutely aware of my space in the industry. So I didn't feel like I was failing per se, but I also was acutely aware of the fact that I wasn't successful in the industry. But you know, I knew my place and that I would have to work if I wanted to eventually get to the point where I wanted to be. That point also just so happened to coincide with I'm also losing interest in the industry because politics was was popping off so much. So they kind of came at the same time.

When did you realize, okay, I can pivot entirely here from what was my dream to something that had never at any point been on the radar as a dream?

Yeah, I mean, YouTube didn't even come about until I think 2003, something around there. So of course, like I didn't grow up thinking I wanted to be a YouTuber. I certainly didn't know what the media landscape would be. And I think, you know, once I started actually being able to make a living on YouTube, I was like, oh, this is where I could live. You know, this is where I could actually make a career. And so I did. And I never looked back. But even prior to becoming monetized on YouTube or any of these other social media platforms, when I was able to reach an audience and say what I wanted to say, that became clear that that was going to be my path. It just fulfilled me in a way that acting never could. So I think pretty soon after I called my agent and said, you know, you don't have to send me in on any more auditions, I was pretty much landed in the spot that I wanted to be.

Fulfilled you the way acting never could, but is there some sort of scenario where the acting would have fulfilled you in a way that this fulfills you? Like, can you imagine the hypothetical scenario that would allow you performance in the spot, in the arena of your dreams, but also allow you the voice that you presently have now that can be journalism, that can be activism, that can be important?

Who knows? I mean, probably if I ended up, look, if you have enough success in the entertainment industry, I'm sure people feel fulfilled. And also being in the entertainment industry and being successful in acting doesn't preclude you from being able to also use your voice for doing political activism. There's certainly plenty of people people in Hollywood that speak up. So I'm sure that had I stuck with it and found a lot of success in the entertainment industry and done movies or TV, that I would be perfectly happy. And I mean, again, it doesn't neuter me in terms of being able to speak my mind on politics.

But your interests changed, right? You went from reading Variety to reading Politico, no?

Yeah, but I still have both. I love living out here. I love living in a city where it's an industry town, but not my industry. Like, I've spent time in Washington, D.C., and there was a point where I was like, maybe I'm living in the wrong town, because I work in politics, and there's like a handful of political people out here. You know, the Pod Save America crew is out here, and you know, in terms of my political circle, that's pretty much it. Whereas when I go to D.C. or New York, it's, you know, it's everybody. But I like being in a city where, It's an industry town, but not for my industry. I like being able to check out at the end of the day and hang out with my friends, and we don't have to talk about politics, and we can talk about their stuff. That's attractive to me because I can kind of be able to compartmentalize in a way that politics doesn't really allow you to because it's just so all-consuming.

How long did you wrestle for?

I wrestled for probably a decade. I think I started when I was about 11 years old, went to— maybe 10 or 11 years old, went to about 20, finished up when I was at Lehigh University on the club team there. And then I had some injuries that just prevented me from wrestling anymore.

The reason I asked the question is because at your core, you're a crazy person. Because to be a wrestler, the mentality, the will, the insanity of pain threshold would inform how it is you do your job ambitiously now in a way that's probably unrelenting.

—Yeah. And that's the part I love about it. I mean, I've always said as I've wrestled that I love the fact that you can't diffuse responsibility onto anybody else. It's just two people on the mat. And that's great because I think that like, there's no shortcuts. You either put in the work and you're gonna win or you don't and you won't. But yeah, I mean, you know, it is for people who don't know what it's like to wrestle. And weirdly enough, it's interesting that you asked that because, Last week, I, for the first time in 17 years, went back and started wrestling. So like I have a sparring partner and, you know, like every morning I'll like once a week go in and start wrestling again. So this is, I'm back in the throes of like my body feeling like it did when I was 19 and trying to recover from wrestling practice. But there is like the weight cutting aspect of things. There's the physical and mental toll of things. I used to go throughout all of high school, I went to school with like a baggie of lettuce for lunch because I had to make weight.

And so you'd go in in the beginning of the season, you're probably £20 heavier than you need to be. And this is also when you're 15, 16 years old and your body wants to grow and your weight class doesn't allow you to. So I would go in with a baggie of lettuce and just eat that throughout the day and maybe ask teachers if I could leave and run in the gym or put a bunch of sweatshirts on and sweat out any excess weight that I had. And then after all that, you actually had to compete. —yeah, yeah. But I love that. Like, I love, like, you know, throwing myself into the most miserable things, whether it's wrestling, whether it's the entertainment industry— the state of America— where, like, 98% of people are unemployed, or the state of America, which is despairing unto itself. So yeah.

What led you back here? Are you just trying to get in shape, or what? Like, what would possibly lead you back to, I'm gonna go back to the most primitive of places and just hurt myself? Yeah.

So I spend a lot of time online, and I actually think spending more and more time online, I have learned the hard way how important it is to get out of the house and have some sense of community and feed my soul in other ways. It used to be that I needed politics to be able to do that. Now I'm all consumed by politics, and so I need to make sure that I force myself to spend time with my friends. I need to make sure that I force myself to go to the gym. And I'm good at wrestling and it was fun. And so it's a way to move my body. Granted, my body doesn't cooperate in the same way that it did 17 years ago, but it's still something that I'm good at. And so it's just, I think as this generation, and I include myself in this generation who grew up online, but certainly Gen Zs among them, we're gonna need more IRL stuff than we're getting right now, and more in-person community than we're getting right now. And, you know, I think that this is like my small way of being able to fill the bucket with more of that.

What was going on in your household with your parents that would make you make the deeply unhealthy choice of, I'm going to choose to batter and punish myself for a decade in this sport that is a little crazy and probably informs your ambition and your will as well.

So I actually just loved— I grew up on WWF. Like, I grew up watching D-Generation X and Stone Cold Steve Austin and all of the characters that— who is the guy? Mick Foley. You know, he played Mankind. And so I watched that stuff religiously. I loved wrestling. I had wrestling action figures. I would go to— you know, I lived in Jersey. I would go to the Nassau Coliseum and the Continental Airlines Arena, both of which are either that are renamed or don't exist anymore, and go watch Monday Night Raw or Thursday Night SmackDown. I loved WWF and didn't know that it was something that real people could do. I thought like you just had to be one of those guys, like you just had to be The Undertaker if you wanted to wrestle. And so I watched that my whole upbringing and around like 10 or 11, I realized that I could do the same thing. So it was a no-brainer. I was like immediately attracted to it. And luckily grew up in an area in New Jersey where wrestling was a cult. And so, you know, we had guys when I first started, 11 years old, who were already national champions where I lived.

And so, it just— you get sucked in. And it was a wrestling town, a wrestling county, and really a wrestling state. And so, it was easy.

Is there any success that you've had that feels as great as the most joyous moment that you've had in wrestling?

Oh, man, that's such a good question. It's different. No, no, it's different because like that is, that's like you, like it's just you and you have so many injuries that you have to deal with and so much emotional pain that you have to deal with in terms of not eating. I mean, sitting there, I used to sit in class and just like write down foods that I was gonna eat at the end of the season 'cause I was so hungry and we would cut weight for months and months and months. And again, like 15, 16, 17 years old, 'cause you're growing, you're trying to grow. And then to go out and win matches, and I was a district champion, and so like to, I mean, those were some of the best moments of my life. And as I said, it's just you. It's just you having earned it. So that, no, I think like you can, I've had success on YouTube, I've had success with selling books, and that's all great, and I wouldn't trade that for anything. But like putting your body on the line is, you know, there is nothing like it.

Oh, but it's more than that. You can be embarrassed, you're stripped down to your courage and your vulnerability. Like it's how much can you overcome in terms of doubt and pain. You wanna go through the injuries? You wanna list them? You wanna—

So I think the main injuries, the main injury that really messed me up, and luckily I got through my whole high school career without this stopping me, but I herniated 2 discs in my spine C5, C6, in my cervical spine. So I got off lucky. I know that there's guys who can't walk. I know that there's guys who break things. I never broke a bone. I had cauliflower ear, lucky enough that I was able to drain it and it not come back. So I think I got off pretty easy, but look, I do physical therapy twice a week and I'll do it forever. So it's just, again—

Yeah, you said you got off easy, but what you just mentioned around the spine where it's C5 and C6, that's not insignificant pain.

No, it's not. And it's stopped me from being able to do a lot of the kind of working out that I've wanted to do over the last couple decades. But again, it's all relative. And I came up around a lot of guys who got injuries that were a lot worse. And I'm lucky enough to be able to go into the gym. I'm lucky enough to be able to get back into wrestling a little bit, like recreationally now. So I think all things considered, it could be a lot worse.

You mentioned that it took years for some of the stuff to catch, that you weren't being paid. And you did mention, okay, I did realize at one point that I can make a career of this. And then you did. How did that happen? Like what's happening in the first feeding of this where you just need an outlet for your voice and then you see that it's catching and then you realize, well, wait a minute, Wait a minute, maybe I have to just alter the trajectory of my entire life.

Yeah. You know, once my channel got monetized and I actually had an income, which was I think the first income— I mean, I was like, when I moved out to LA, I was personal training on the side for money. And I was lucky enough to have been certified as a personal trainer. So I could actually make more money than minimum wage somewhere. So I was lucky because that's a good— That's a good job, part-time job to have. But yeah, I mean, once I remember leaving my clients and slowly stopping doing that, which was great, and being able to just focus full-time on politics, which is what I wanted to do anyway. How long though?

What kind of period are we talking about here between the last call to your agents, I'm out, to I think that I— Is there a safety net when you tell your agents I'm out?

No, when I told my agent I was out, I wasn't even monetized, but I was just not— politics was popping off too much, and I just couldn't keep getting up off my computer and traveling across town to Santa Monica to sit in a waiting room to do a commercial for God knows what. So there was no safety net. It was about a year of just head down, working, building up my channels, and then getting my channel monetized where I realized, oh, I can I can actually live doing this. And that was great. But look, coming from the entertainment industry, I never had an expectation that I would be able to support myself. When you're in that space where you're just hustling and trying to make a few hundred bucks here and there, it doesn't really— There was a point where I was like, I don't know if I'll be able to have an apartment, where I'll be able to sign for an apartment. I was living with a roommate, my roommate at the time, and he signed for the apartment. I was like, there's no way, I can't foresee a moment where I can put my name on a lease and get granted that lease.

And that's just how it was. You know, and I'm sure a lot of people who listen to this remember being in their 20s and just being like, I just don't see it for myself. Forget a house. I would love to be in a situation where I have enough money in my bank account to be able to show it to a leasing office and then be like, You're approved. But I wasn't there at that point.

Once the illumination of, I can chase this and make a career out of it, makes an appearance, the ambition of the wrestler that makes an appearance as well makes it that you're working how many hours a week feeding this?

So right now, I work 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I work on Christmas, I work on New Year's, New Year's Eve. July 4th, videos go out on my channel every single day. I work— if I give myself a half day, it's like 5 hours, and that's a dream. I probably work somewhere between 11 to 14 hours a day, and— but it's always been like that. And so I don't— I don't— I mean, I certainly— you get to the point where you start to feel a little burnt out, but I don't feel like it's not out of the ordinary because it's always been that way. So I feel like as, as long as I continue to work long hours, it will just be my norm.

That seems deeply unhealthy. It is.

It is. I mean, like, and I'm conscious of it, but at the same time, it's hard to extract yourself from it when you're in the throes of it. So in a regular day, I can say, hey, I'm gonna take the, the healthy route here and do 7 or 8 hours a day. But politics keeps happening regardless of whether I work or not. So I can get up off that chair and stop. But, you know, people expect to hear from me. And I have, you know, I have a channel where I put out 4 or 5, 6 videos a day. So I could put out less. But, you know, it also makes you think about the, like, physiological implications of working on social media and the dopamine hits that you get. You get from putting out a video and getting views from it or getting attention from it or pieces of that video getting clipped and put online or the subscriber numbers growing when you make more content. All of that stuff, like I'm acutely aware of how that stuff is subconsciously impacting me, but it's strong, strong enough to the point where even though I'm aware of it, I almost can't resist it.

Oh, you're an addict.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, and you know, the interesting part of that is when, you know, I think the one time where I'm so aware of how addicting social media is, is at the end of the night, I'll smoke weed and kind of that, then I'll go onto TikTok or Instagram Reels and I won't be able to put it down because now my self-discipline is gone and I'm just like, I'm, you know, when I've smoked, it's just like id, right? It's just my, like, my just core self and I can't put it down. And so I know in real time while it's happening, I'm like, it's just so, it's so addicting that when I lose my ability to discipline myself, then I'm completely at the mercy of these algorithms and how scrolling one more time, one more time, one more time gives you that dopamine hit that prevents you from putting it down.

I'm not sure that you can win unless you're like that, because everyone you're competing against is also like that. And so if you were to give yourself a day off, which seems normal, human, you're gonna feel that day like you're in complete withdrawal and you're falling behind. Totally.

And, and that's been the tough part to reconcile, because I know I need to do it. To it, and especially working in politics. I've said so often that I'm so jealous of people who work in sports, for example, because while the stakes might feel high, they're not as high as life or death, right? As the stuff that we're seeing ICE agents across the country pulling people out of their cars and shipping them off, deporting them to foreign countries. That stuff is— that is the stuff of life or death, and I'm jealous of people who get to work in spaces like sports, even though the stakes are high for them, they're not that high. And it just feels like a healthier environment to live in. I, you know, it is what it is. I work in politics. I'm beyond fortunate to have the audience and the platform that I have, and I don't take it for granted at all. But it does chip away at me. And you're right, like, even in those instances where, you know, I'm taking a little bit of time off, my thought is I should probably be working.

It seems like a real mental health minefield though. Like, are you getting any help with this? Because I, I, I've, uh, I've thought this recently here with Hasan Piker, who's doing, you know, just an, and just 8 hours a day that, and then when you're not on, you're also always thinking about it because you got to feed the next day. And it's a treadmill that is wonderfully fulfilling, especially if If you're growing and you love what it is that you're doing, but people love heroin too.

Yeah, no, it's a great point. Like, you know, no, to answer your question simply, like no, I'm not trending in the direction of fixing it. You know, like I'll smoke at night, as I said. That's not necessarily a healthy option, but it's some escapism. You know, and so that's nice. And I know people listening are gonna be like, wait, so you were asked what you're doing to help yourself and your answer was that you're doing drugs at the end of the day?

Well, you're trying to relax, you're trying to slow your mind down. Your mind's gotta be a fishing reel where it's like perpetually going out to sea with a fish that can't ever be hooked.

Yeah, no, I mean, look, it's made me grow my appreciation for people who take mental health seriously. Been bouts of real depression and I know how it consumes people. And so I appreciate that. I appreciate the space of like of therapy. Again, I wish I was more open to it. Like, I feel like it's a little bit weird because I can diagnose a lot of what the issue is. It's just a matter of overcoming those dopamine hits and my nature to continue doing them.

Well, some of your dreams are coming true, right? Yeah. If it wasn't acting, you're still performing. Yeah. You're performing in a more meaningful way that you ever thought you'd be performing. Yeah. You're being rewarded with audience and applause and the fulfillment of identity. But when was the last time, do you remember, that you took a day off?

The last time I took a day off, No, I don't really remember like the day, like any day specifically. Again, I'll use like, even when I've gone on vacations and I've slowed down vacations just as things have ramped up and my business has ramped up, but I would, I bring a whole studio, like a travel studio with a separate camera, separate mics. I have tripods and lights and C-stands, all of it. You're a one-man show? No employees? I do have employees, yeah. I have contractors and a team that I work with now, and I'm beyond grateful for them. But I have a team of about a dozen people. So, and you know, when you build up a team as well, then there's more expectation because people are— they're working. So they show up to work, and I have to be at work too, because, you know, especially in the content creation space, a lot of my content is predicated on me saying things and delivering my script so that they can use that. And I translate into Spanish because I have a Spanish team, or throw it onto, you know, clip it up and throw it onto the short-form platforms and whatever it may be.

So those people are relying on me continuing to work so that they can do their jobs that I pay them for. So, but yeah, even on instances where I go to weddings or have gone to vacation, I'm still bringing my gear. And, you know, I've, I have pictures that my girlfriend has taken of me where I'm wearing a bathing suit, but then a suit top and just recording into the camera.

Does she understand all of this?

She does. That's the struggle. And I'm sure anybody who has a significant other or a partner in this space, or look, any busy job, right? Understands the trade-off. It's a lot of people, I think, I mean, I'm sure you've spoken to more people in more varied settings. Than I have about this, but there's always that trade-off where if you want to be successful, it is a type of sacrifice that I think precludes you from being able to do a lot of the fun things that ironically enough, you can now afford to do because you've had that success. But you're successful.

Great. You've already arrived at success. Yeah. And it's never going to feel like you've arrived at success if it keeps arriving and you don't absorb it as having arrived at success. Yeah, that's true.

The Overton window always shifts. And my idea of success today is a lot different than it was 5 years ago, is a lot different than it was 10 years ago. I mean, hell, if you told me I would have, you know, 1,000 people who were watching what I had to say when I first started, I would've been over the moon. And now, you know, now there's a certain viewership that I wanna go for, otherwise I'll think a video is a failure. And that viewership is more than a quarter of a million people, which is kind of crazy to be able to say, But you always adapt and you always normalize to what you have and what you want.

But why does it have to be like that? Like, why do you, 'cause you demand to be better every day? You have some sort of ambition inside of you that craves, I always have to do better than I did the day before or I'm failing?

Yeah, I mean, it's not the healthiest outlook, but I'm really competitive, really competitive with myself.

Well, it'll get you success. I just don't know that it'll get you happy. Yeah, totally. Like if the hole can never be filled, if nothing is ever enough and you have to keep chasing something.

Yeah, I guess that's, and I, again, I'm like aware of it, but I guess that's just, you know, a lot of that mentality has got me to this point. And, you know, so there's pros and cons of it. You need that mentality. I'm sure I share that trait with a lot of other people. With a lot of other people, but there's obvious downsides, which is like, you know, yes, it got me here, but it's also hard to turn off.

Oh, and don't think I'm judging you, by the way. I had 3 jobs. I'm just 57. I'm 20 years older than you, and I struggled with some happy even as I kept arriving in places that I never thought I would be. And then at some point I was like, it's okay to relax a little bit.

What was the impetus to tell yourself that it's okay to relax if you have that kind of a personality?

I got married and it made me happier. Like, I found, joy in places. I also had arrived at some places that I thought were the top of my dreams, and I'm looking around and I'm like, this is a little emptier than I thought. And if I'm alone at the top of the mountain, it's not as good as sharing the view with somebody. Yeah. And so, but I got married late, like this was, and my work was, was, I don't have kids, so my work was my baby. And when I'm telling you, I had what amounted to 3 full-time jobs pre-internet where I'm working newspapers, magazine, radio, radio and television. So it was really 4 kinds of jobs that I would— so I recognize that it's not— I'm not— I promise you, I'm not looking at you and, and judging it all, but today's content creators, because I'm coming up pre-internet, right? And so when I see today's content creators and I see that I'm competing against some people who can do 8 hours live every day, I'm like, that's not good for you. Like, that's just like— you may get some of the things you want competing against all of these other people.

And the internet has become such a meritocracy that there must be great, great fulfillment in being able to beat others at the acquisition of audience. But the competition is unrelenting and it would affect sleep and it would affect, like you gotta be able to take days off.

Yeah, well, I think back the way that I try to, and I'm trying to convince myself that it's okay to take time off and that I actually have to enjoy some of the fruits of my labor. And the way I do that is say like, I feel like, you know, over the last few years specifically, there's not a lot of, I haven't made a lot of memories because I've been mostly in my studio working. And I look back at some of the things that other people have done or some of the events that I could have gone to. And I think back and I tell myself I'd rather have done XYZ than done one more day in the studio because, you know, in hindsight, that random Tuesday that I could have done something else or more likely Friday or Saturday or Sunday where I could have done something else, wasn't that important. You know, it was one day out of 365 days out of, you know, God knows how many years that I've been doing this, that I could have taken some time off and done something fun with some friends. And so I'm— it's a battle that I'm trying to have with myself.

But, you know, it's going to take a little bit of time and I got to force myself to get there. But it's something weirdly, there's a disconnect between, like logically I know, but almost physiologically I can't stop, you know? But it'll get there. I'm curious when you got to that point and you were like, oh, you know, this is more fun with somebody else, how quick was that realization of kind of what I'm explaining where it was like, I'm glad that I made this decision, I'm not going back?

I mean, I've always struggled with joy, right? So when I'm feeling something that is happiness, it's obvious, right? Like, it's— I can't dispute it. I feel better. And a gray has lifted because I, you know, whether I was serving the wrong god— like, it's easy to say now, right? Because I've had this success. So I've arrived in some of the places where I'm satiated. I put down some of my competition and saw that there wasn't quite as much nobility in competing as I thought, right? Because you're noticing all the other people are doing X, Y, and Z, social media more than ever, you're noticing what everyone else is doing. And so just feeling happier is something that can't, I couldn't deny it, I couldn't dispute it. But it happened gradually. It was, I mean, my patterns made me so that for half a century I was one kind of person. And I'm still, I can still do crazy. Like don't, I can, because I, I'm running a company, and when I have employees, I feel the same sort of responsibilities. And I've taken on an assortment of things that I didn't know I was taking on in the running of a company.

But, uh, I, I have more joyous moments. And, and you will see too, midlife— when midlife comes for you and you feel the disorientation of wherever it is that, uh, things happen to people in midlife and they start examining their life, you will, you will start practicing on some of these things that you're just observing now because they make you slightly less happy. But all this stuff you're talking about, I mean, you're doing everything you're doing and writing a book on the side that you don't have— like, you could just keep it to what it is that you're doing over here, and you've decided, uh, no, I'm gonna do this as well.

Which, why? You know, I, I'm, uh, I got an English degree from, from Lehigh, and I've always loved writing. I got a business degree and an English degree, so I got 2 degrees from that school, but I've always loved writing. The creative aspect of things, which is ultimately why I moved out to LA to be in the industry, it has always just attracted me. And so my family member who I was telling you about who lives out in Los Angeles, who has been my window into this world, in the world is a writer as well. And so I've just had so much respect for people in that space. And so then my agents contacted me with an opportunity to write. And I've always, I had always said no. I'd been contacted by my agents prior to when I finally accepted. And I said no because I just didn't think, I held it in such high regard and I didn't want to fail at something like that because it was a thing that I wanted to do and I wanted to do it well.

Same, I haven't been able to write a book because of that. Like I'm a writer, I started as a writer. I'm a sportswriter and I have not been able to write a book for the reason that you're talking about. Your incentive is interesting because you've got such a built-in audience that you know the moment that you write it, it will be successful because they will buy it, but also it has to be good enough to not disappoint them.

Yeah, and so there's a lot of steps along the way. Like, yes, I'm lucky that I have a built-in audience where it's much easier as opposed to the thousands of authors who write a book and just put it into the ether and just hope that it catches fire or reaches some people or whatever it may be. So I'm lucky in that sense. But yeah, I mean, look, I— it's important for me that what I do is done well. I don't have a media company. I'm one of the few content creators who didn't create a company. I just have my name. And so everything is a direct reflection on me. If I have I have anything that goes out on my Facebook page or my YouTube page or my Twitter or Threads or Bluesky or TikTok or Instagram accounts, they say my name on it. So I can't hide behind any company that I've created. And same thing with the book. I mean, it is a direct reflection off of me and something that I care deeply about, which is writing. So I just wanted to make sure that it was good. And I finally felt a couple of years ago, 2 years ago when I wrote my first book that I had enough to say that I was willing to write a book, and I'm grateful that that book sold really well, and it was a number 1 New York Times bestseller.

And then we got to the point where I had the opportunity to write a second book the day after, and that landed at number 2 on the New York Times bestseller list as well. So that was great, but it was time to write what the book was about.

I love that landing on those lists doesn't feel as good as the district championship in high school.

I mean, look, it is— it's different, right? Like, again, putting your physical body on the line is— you can't compare it to something. I mean, like, obviously I have all the respect in the world for authors and people who are going to put out any writing wherever they put it out. But putting your body on the line and just like, and getting to the point, I remember winning that district championship and laying on the mat and just, I had nothing left in my body, couldn't even get up to celebrate my own win. And like that, that's great. I mean—

Well, what is it that you're articulating there though? Because I've worked in sports all of my life, but I've had no great need to put my feet physical body on the line, and you're sitting here saying it's more fulfilling than putting your mental health on the line.

Yeah, well, see, that's interesting because like it still doesn't feel— mental health doesn't feel like as present of a sacrifice as your physical health does because it manifests differently. It's pernicious and it takes a long time to impact you. 'Cause if you tweak your neck, you feel it one second later and it stops you from being able to do anything you want. God knows I've had a million of those days where I tweak my neck and all of a sudden my whole life is impacted and you feel it's an ever-present reminder. But mental health struggles, they sneak up on you. And because every day it becomes normalized and you become accustomed to life with that, that 0.001% struggle, then over the course of weeks or months or years, you don't even realize that that 0.001% amplified every day is now 10% or 20% or 50%. So it sneaks up on you that way. So it doesn't feel as urgent as when you've broken your arm.

How often do you get approached about running for office?

So approached, I've never been like officially approached by like the powers that be emanating from smoke-filled rooms, but I have people ask me every single day, "Why don't you run for office? You're a young guy. We need young people in politics." And I have zero interest. It will never happen. I think that the media space is ground zero on where elections are won or lost. I think I think that people build up their worldviews and their political ideologies, not from these politicians, but from the media that they consume every single day. And you see people get sucked into right-wing rabbit holes and/or alt-right rabbit holes, and it impacts their ability to discern fact from fiction. And more people are getting their news on YouTube than are getting their news from linear TV now. So this is where it's at. That's where these elections are going to be won and lost. And so I have an opportunity because I'm one of the few people who has a platform in this space to use that responsibly. And so I don't want to sacrifice that because I would just be one more guy running for office. There's people way more adept, way smarter than me, way better legislators, way more charismatic and articulate that can do that.

I'm happy to amplify them, but I'm lucky enough to be one of the few people who have a big platform in this space. And so I don't want to— I don't want to waste it.

You hate the mainstream media, huh?

Look, I don't hate the mainstream media. I think what they do is important. I resent the mainstream media in a way that's almost not their fault, but sometimes is, because they've engaged in so much both sides coverage that I think it's normalized a lot of, you know, it's gotten us to this point that we're in right now. But also at the same time, I think that the responsibility is on the left more broadly, the, the, the amorphous left more broadly to have embraced independent media earlier and not look at mainstream media as our message distribution system because they're not and they never wanted to be. And they've told us that they don't want to be our message distribution system. And the right was really good at standing up independent outlets or avowedly right-wing outlets. They have Daily Wire, Daily Caller, Megan Kelly. O'Reilly, Alex Jones, Tucker Carlson, Fox, Newsmax, OAN. You know, Fox's slogan was fair and balanced, not because they viewed themselves as fair or balanced, but because they viewed themselves as a balance to what they considered a liberal media ecosystem. And so they were the, the right-wing balance to that. And so you have all these avowedly right-wing outlets working to help the Republican Party.

And on the left, we have the New York Times that doesn't want to be liberal media. And in fact, when somebody calls it liberal media, they do 77 cover stories on Hillary's emails to show us, "Hey, we don't want to be your message distribution system." And so I have resentment because that was all we had, but it should never have been all we have. And look, I think I wouldn't be able to do what I do without the great reporting that legacy media brings about, but I also think having people who have a perspective, who are biased in favor of a progressive agenda, as I am, I think it's important that we invest in that space as well as a counter to what they have on the right.

I see though what was being attempted by the mainstream media in pursuing the idea of objectivity. What you're saying is true. The both sides of it in this age doesn't work anymore because it's side-taking time and it feels like cowardice. The neutrality doesn't feel right given what it is that's happening, but the starting point on the aspiring to that objectivity is trying to be fair. Like, the, the attempt— and the New York Times has fallen apart for a lot of different reasons over the last 5 years, but it's the strongest thing standing in the space, still trying to govern, uh, still trying to fight for something that it, in its principles, I think, while utopian, I still think the principles are good. Trying to be fair is the attempt, but it doesn't work anymore.

No, it doesn't work anymore. And also We know, like, you have to be able to call a spade a spade at some point. Like, you know, the both sides coverage when it manifests in like the election denialism, you know, basically transcribing what Trump is saying about election denialism and refusing to take a position when it's very clearly election denialism, like, I can't abide that, you know? And so I So I think there are a lot of outlets that are still afraid, whether it's because their leadership is right-wing or they want to curry favor with this administration, not get iced out, that they will refuse to call what is black and white exactly what it is. And so we'll see, you know, like a feud erupts over, you know, election-denying candidates when they can just say the election was stolen. The election was not stolen. There's no evidence of widespread fraud, but we just, we keep getting what feels like transcribing politicians, their words, as opposed to doing the reporting and the journalism of being able to say, you know, whatever it is, the election wasn't stolen.

What do you make and how concerned are you about all of the infighting on the left?

It's concerning because we're at a moment right now where we are facing like an existential crisis as far as democracy is concerned. We have a president that is willing to use the military as his personal cudgel within the United States, who's willing to use the FCC as a way to silence his critics, including comedians, who's willing to undermine the plain text of the Constitution. Right now, he's fighting against birthright citizenship, which is right there in black and white in the Constitution. So he has no adherence or fidelity to the Constitution or our laws, and yet he's content to to not only wield power, but consolidate more power, and his party seems perfectly willing to let him. So all of those things are happening, and obviously infighting hurts our ability to be able to unite against a shared enemy in this moment. I think to a lot of the moments in history where we had autocrats, the countries falling from liberal democracies to illiberal democracies. And I think a lot of us, especially in the political space, pose this question to ourselves where we ask, like, what would we do if we were there? What would we do if we were in 1933 Germany?

What would we do? And I would want to make sure that I was clear-eyed about fighting that existential threat and not engaging in infighting and squabbles. But it's hard to take a 30,000-foot view to things sometimes. Because politics is, you know, people get passionate about it, and rightfully so. So what I hope is, look, this is a primary. There's going to be infighting. That's just how it goes. We're a big tent party. That is a double-edged sword. And I hope that people understand the existential threat that we're contending with and can drop the internal disputes when the time comes and just start focusing on what we have to do moving forward.

I can be naive, so I remain shocked at just about everything that has happened in America in the last 10 years. Are you? Shocked at everything?

You know, you adapt to the new normal, just like everything else. So, I don't think that many things shock me anymore. They make me sad. The state of things makes me sad and I get tired. It's hard not to and I think that despair is in large part the purpose, is the goal.

That's the game plan, to wear you out, to exhaust you because there are— if I asked you for a number on the number of scandals that Trump has had that would have ended previous presidencies—

Hundreds. Thousands. But you're right. I mean, there is the Steve Bannon model of flooding the zone with shit. It is a prescribed model that he brings forward, and they act on that every day. And so I know that people feel tired and despairing. I get emails from people that say, "Thanks for sending me this email. I'm going to check out because I'm just exhausted." And I think people need to take time because we would rather have people in the fight who are rested and willing to fight than people who are just at their wit's end and ready to throw their hands up. They're no good to the movement that way. So I always tell people, take time off. I would never subject myself to what I do to myself every day. But yeah, I think the despair is engineered.

What do you view as the most pressing issue facing America today if you only had to choose won?

I think the ability of the US to be able to run free and fair elections. This is a Republican Party that doesn't accept elections that they lose, and I don't— everything is foundational from that. If you're not going to be able to allow one side to win elections, if you're going to take issue with every election that you lose, then we are in a position where democracy can't work otherwise. It relies on a collective understanding or acceptance of when somebody gets more votes, they have the right to govern too. And we've lost that. So I think for right now, as we head into midterms, obviously there are a lot of avenues that, that Trump and Republicans are taking to try and undermine our ability to have a free and fair election. He's been trying relentlessly to ban mail ballots for mail-in voting. They've been trying to pass what's called the Save America Act, which is basically a federal takeover of state-run elections. We've run the elections at the state level for 250 years. And there is the daunting prospect of sending ICE agents to the polls, which the DOJ and DHS refused to rule out.

And so a lot of these things are hanging over our heads. Luckily, we have a lot of good attorneys and folks that work in this space that are aware of this stuff. And prepared to fight back against it. But you never know what elections are going to look like, the aftermath of elections are going to look like, the certification of elections are going to look like. Nobody could have guessed that January 6th, 2021 was going to happen. And so if anything, that moment was instructive because it showed us that, that really we have to be prepared for any possibility.

Our goal then is just to make sure that we take steps to prevent against If you had to bet and be right, do you believe that in 2028 we will see something similar to what it is that we saw on January 6th?

If I had to bet, I would say no, just because I think that that was such an anomaly, and I think that in large part, In part, a lot of people relied on the durability of our institutions to fight back against it. So I think that we are more prepared in a way because we know that this administration is not going to adhere to any norms or traditions or institutions. And so we can be more prepared to know that anything is possible as opposed to just kind of sticking our heads in the sand, being like, "Well, the elections always get certified. It'll just work out." And I feel like that was the mentality before. Now we have lawyers, now we have groups, now we have organizations that are ready to combat this stuff if and when it happens. But I just think if I had to guess, if I had to bet and I had to be right, the likelihood that something as catastrophic as January 6th would happen again is probably, I would opt against it. But again, that's not ruling anything out.

He's not going to just leave office if he's still alive. No.

Right because we have no empirical evidence to suggest that he will. He has never accepted election results, whether with himself, even in elections that he's won. He complains about losing California. California, like the liberal bastion of America, thinks that he would've won if not for some elusive 3 to 5 million undocumented immigrants who purportedly voted in the election. Like if you're going to complain about an election where you literally won because you've decided that 5 million people who didn't vote voted against you, that shows that you're not discerning about when you're going to, you know, take the facts regarding these election results. And anytime any Republican wins, not just with him, he'll complain— loses, he'll complain that that election was rigged. The only time he doesn't complain is when Republicans win or when one Republican beats another Republican in a primary. Then everything was on the up and up, but anytime a Democrat is involved, involved, there was some foul play. China or Venezuela or some foreign country or foreign entity or foreign being came and interfered in the election, and we have bamboo ballots or Hugo Chavez came up, whatever it may be, there's always some excuse.

And so no empirical evidence would suggest that he's going to quietly accept the results because he never has.

What would you say over the last 10 years has pissed you off the most, like where you just get righteously indignant and are like throwing up your hands on how How the hell can this be in America?

I think I remember that happening most acutely when Roe was overturned, just because it was so cataclysmic and it was in such bad faith. And we had all of these Supreme Court justices during their confirmation hearings who swore up and down that they respected precedent. They talked about stare decisis and Roe was precedent upon precedent upon precedent. Precedent, and we respect that. And then they came into office or got confirmed rather, got onto the bench, and lo and behold, Roe was gutted exactly how we had warned it would get gutted. And when people like Susan Collins said, oh, I respect, I trust what Brett Kavanaugh tells me when I voted to confirm him. And that's in large part why I wrote this book, because Democrats Democrats will constantly defer to norms and traditions and institutions, and the Republicans don't play by any rules. And they'll say one thing during their confirmation hearing, get power, and wield power to get exactly what they want. And there was nobody there that was saying, "Hey, well, we did say, we did say that we have to respect precedent. And so we can't possibly gut Roe v. Wade because of what these guys said, and we have to act in good faith." never part of the conversation.

So I think just the egregious nature, the shamelessness with which they wield power, I wanted to offer up a wake-up call to the left that if that asymmetry continues to exist, we are going to good government ourselves into obscurity. And look, we are in the minority in the House, the Senate, the White House, the Supreme Court, lost the popular vote. I mean, like, we are as close to governing from obscurity as you could possibly get. So if Democrats don't learn how to exercise power with the same ruthlessness with which Republicans do, then we're not going to be in a position where we can actually do it, especially when people, you know, want— like, you've heard the saying, "I'd rather be strong and wrong than weak and right." So people want somebody in power who's going to get something done. And if the Democrats are not showing that they're willing to do that, that they're willing to wield power, especially on on the positions that are, by the way, more popular, the positions like acknowledging that climate change is real, expanding voting rights, expanding healthcare, if you can't do that, then people aren't going to reward you with their votes.

I feel like an idiot though, thinking that the Supreme Court wasn't something that could be contaminated by some of this shit.

Yeah. I mean, look, I argue for expanding the Supreme Court. That is a major tenet of my argument in terms of what it looks like when Democrats wield power. There's a historical argument for it, which is that the number of Supreme Court justices throughout American history has always comported with the number of federal court circuits. That number in like 1837 was 6, so we had 6 federal court circuits, 6 Supreme Court justices. Eventually, that number went up to 9. Now we have 13 federal court circuits, but still 9 Supreme Court justices. So there is a historical justification to actually expand the Supreme Court, but even beyond that, to bring about a Supreme Court that isn't going to discard the law in deference to Trump, that's gonna actually adhere to the Constitution, which, you know, these days, I guess, is a steep hill to climb.

I'm gonna speed this up here in a second. He's the star of Switched at Birth. You should find that wherever it is that you can. No Lies is the name of the podcast. And his new book, his latest book, it's going to be a bestseller, already is a bestseller just based on his audience, The Day After: How to Wield Power in a Post-Trump World. Before I do this, though, what is Chorus and why is it that you believe in Chorus?

So Chorus is a group of— it's basically an incubator program for a generation of pro-democracy content creators. As I said, there has been so much investment in the right-wing media ecosystem. And I exist in the pro-democracy left-wing media ecosystem. I know that there is an impetus, a necessity to build this space up. And so decided to get together with a group of content creators, try to bring some funding into this space so that folks can do this work and get paid for it. And at the same time, learn how to be really effective in this space. And so we have about 165 content creators who we've been able to teach. It's basically like grad school for content creators. Help them grow their platforms, help them go from one platform to another so that now they're not just reaching people on YouTube, they're reaching people on Facebook or Snapchat or TikTok, whatever it may be, and inform their audiences and be stewards of good civic participation. Why did you decide to do that? I felt like with my platform in this space, I have something of a responsibility to pay it forward and try to help some other people grow quickly in this space so that we can build up this space as an antidote to the right-wing rabbit hole that people get sucked into.

I'm going to speed you up now. What is something that you could eat nonstop in a way that makes you feel guilty? Chicken fingers. A poster you had on your wall growing up?

Nirvana.

What will make you sing in the car if it comes on and you happen to be listening to the radio instead of choosing your music?

Michael Jackson's "Will You Be There" from Free Willy.

Hotel movie that'll stop you every time and you will absolutely watch? Shawshank Redemption. TV show forever?

Friday Night Lights.

Best sports moment off of the top of your head when you think of sports? Sports. Personally or— Yeah, let's do both.

Okay, personally I think was winning that district championship in wrestling. Sports moment otherwise, watching the Giants beat the Patriots and ending the Patriots' perfect season. I think it was 2011.

The most recent time you cried.

Oh man, I'm a sucker for commercials. If you put on like a dog in a commercial, it's YouTube videos where dogs dogs greet their owners who are coming back from war. Like, soldiers coming back from war and seeing their dogs. I'm done.

What keeps you up at night?

Mostly anxiety.

All right, very good. This was a pleasure. I appreciate spending this time with you. I hope that you didn't get too bothered by me worrying about you in general. You're working too hard, but what you're doing is important, sir. Thank you.

Thank you so much for having me.