Transcript of Top 10 TE Rankings + Most Improved Offenses - Fantasy Football Podcast for 8/5

Welcome to the Fantasy Footballers Podcast with your hosts Andy Holloway, Jason Moore, and Mike Wright.

Ah, welcome in.

Not yet, Jason. Not yet.

Not yet.

Wednesday, August 5th, the fantasy football, the, the, the what? Tight end ranking show, NFL news, talking improved offenses, talking fantasy insights to help you on draft day. That's the goal each and every day. Help you prepare for your draft and for the season. Jason has been smirking for a minute. Maybe longer. Are you in a good mood?

I'm in a great mood. We golfed this morning.

That put you in a good mood.

No, sir. No, sir. I got a new high score.

High score.

Yes, which is great. Plus 27 through 9.

No, no, that's real.

That is real. That is absolutely real.

If I'm saying it out loud.

No, it's not real. I am not counting a mulligan. So technically it would be 28, but I'm going to give myself plus 30-ish.

I mean, the Falcon was out there with a camera today.

I'm sure there's got some bad shots in there.

I'm sure he does.

Well, he was following you.

So does he have any good ones?

Of Andy? Yeah, for sure. No, but I'm fine, man. I will say this. When I started golfing and I was really, really bad, which I have stayed at least consistent, I was breaking clubs. I was that guy.

That guy on the course. You just said that this has been a mental change.

This has been something where it's like, grow up. Golf's hard. You suck.

Yeah. The tumor is not operable.

If you don't want to be out here. Yeah, exactly. The tumor is unoperable.

No, it's not the tumor.

Just deal with it. Okay. So sad.

Okay.

There's nothing you can do. So just like get over it. Good, good point, Andy. Yeah. But no, I'm in a good mood. I'm really, really excited about football. I'm really excited about August being here.

Get the golf off the back screen.

Yeah. And me being a— horribly bad golfer will not get in my way.

There's, there's a decent chance that we do some work on that. You know, we get, yeah, yeah, I think we're going to genuinely lessons, you know, get better. But this is not a golf show. It sometimes feels like it. We have a giveaway, a big giveaway.

That's cool.

What are we giving away?

We are giving away a signed Bijan Robinson jersey in honor of Bijan Robinson's new contract. No, we're giving away an autographed Bijan jersey. Free to enter footclangiveaway.com if you're interested in that. We like giving away some stuff in August. It's always fun. So we're going to start with— that doesn't mean it'll be the only giveaway in August, but we'll start with a signed Bijan Robinson jersey. Footclangiveaway.com for that. You guys know the UDK. It's available right now at ultimatedraftkit.com. If you want to prepare for your draft in the best possible way, check that out. And yeah, I'm excited too, Jay. It's time to get into it. Quick question of the day comes in from Billy. Which bottom 10 offense from 2025 do you believe will outperform their touchdown total by 13+? And the reason he's asking 13+ is because last year, Mike, on your— on the Tips and Tricks show, you talked about anticipating offensive systems and they're, you know, basically them improving because over the last decade, at least 3 teams, mind you, it was 6 last year, at least 3 teams every year jump 13+ total touchdowns.

Yep. And figuring out who it is can really, really help you.

Yeah. I mean, because we've said this about rookies going to bad destinations. It's not always bad. You think it's bad, but things change in the NFL so quickly. Just for context, last year's touchdown leaders, the Rams, New England, Seattle, Buffalo, Detroit. The basement was New Orleans, New York, the Jets, that is Tennessee, Cleveland, and Las Vegas. Those were, and you're talking the Rams just for, just for like to see the difference. The Rams scored 65 total touchdowns. The Raiders scored 25 total touchdowns.

Oh man.

So, but it happens every year. Most of the time it's more than 3. 6 teams last year. The Rams jumped more than 13 touchdowns. New England jumped more than 13. Jacksonville, Dallas, New York, and Indianapolis. So what's the team for this year? Mike, why don't you start?

The amount of chips that I have been pushing into the table on the New Orleans Saints is we are, we're not approaching inappropriate.

Now you're almost all in.

We are. Inappropriate and now we're borderline just terrifying of how much I believe in what they are about to do. So I think with, with Shuck and Co down there in New Orleans and with Kellen Moore, you know, calling, calling the plays, getting everything going for the offense, I think that they are what they are the team to watch to make, you know, a New England style jump.

That is, I guess one thing I hadn't thought about. I didn't realize how low they were last year because Shuck did play over a great part of the year. He didn't have a lot of passing touchdowns.

Correct. Tons of yardage, but a, like an average or below average touchdown rate.

I imagine Kellen Moore is not proud of that number. That 31 number was nearly the bottom of the NFL and he has a resume that, you know, he can call plays and get it into the end zone. They're definitely a great candidate for that. I'm going to go with the Titans. I've been kind of in their corner this offseason. Not to the, I think you, believe that the Saints can compete in a big way, make the playoffs, win the division.

Yeah, the Saints winning the division.

I don't think the Titans can win their division, but I think the difference in their offense could be significant. I mean, the Giants last year were one of the teams that jumped up 13 touchdowns just with Jackson Dart coming in and then adding Cam Scadaboo. The difference that, you know, some pass catchers are going to make in Tennessee, the fact that they were at the bottom of the league last year. I think that Cam Ward is going to take a step forward. I'm pretty excited about Carnell Tate. Wandale's there. They've got the weapons and they got the play caller, Brian Dable, coming in. So I'm going to go with the Titans.

Yeah, I think play caller makes a big impact. That is probably the number one reason for my team. They were the bottom of the barrel, the lowest scoring team in the league, the Raiders last year. Obviously you had Brock Bowers injured. You had a terrible offensive line. And genuinely, I think that the biggest issue with the Raiders offense last year was the Pete Carroll nepotism on the offensive line. You know, the offensive line coach being his son. Everyone said it was a problem, a mistake when they fired their staff and didn't retain him. It was like, what's going on here? I think Clint Kubiak coming in. Bringing in Rick Dennison, a really good offensive line coach, going out and getting Tyler Lindenbaum, a great center. And then you get Brock back. Now you've got Kirk Cousins in and, you know, we don't know what Mendoza will do. Obviously Mendoza— rookie quarterbacks don't usually have a high touchdown number, but when you only scored 25 touchdowns last year, like the bar is pretty easy to step over that 13 more touchdown number. They could still be in the bottom half of offenses and score 13 more touchdowns than they did last year.

Rick Dennison not being a private investigator, I think I was trying to figure out what that name like. He's either a sheriff in a Wild West town.

Rick Dennison on the case or a detective. Yeah.

But you're not talking like current era.

Oh, like a film noir. Oh no. A film noir.

This is old. He's like, of all the places in all the world, she had to walk into mine. What a dame. There's just like a cloud of cigarette smoke floating in the air.

It's beige trim.

It's a powerful name.

It is.

All right. We will jump into the news.

News and notes from around the league. Okay.

Is this news? NFL Network's Ian Rapoport believes Tua will likely start Week 1. This is not new.

Don't be surprised. This is a thought.

That's a thought that is— and the thought has an equivocator in it.

Right. It's not even a strong thought. It's just like, I think maybe. Right. I think maybe the two will start.

What's the line that you're bringing up before?

Yeah, just the don't be surprised.

Don't be surprised if.

I get it.

We do these things. Sometimes you're talking and then you're trying to gather your thoughts at the exact same time as you're thinking. Sometimes one of those thoughts comes out and you're like, ooh, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta soften that one up.

I believe most people's expectation here is that Tua is going to start. Tua is banged up right now, but Penix is even further away from getting on the field.

Tua's just better.

Tua was not good, but he was better. Penix was so— I mean, when I watched the film last year, I was like, I did not remember him being this bad. He was Very, very not good.

8 hours ago, Tua Tagovailoa on training camp with Michael Pennix. Quote, it's definitely a competition.

Yeah.

Well, this is what you'd say if it wasn't one. But no, I noticed that on Sleeper, one of the most added players in dynasty leagues was their third string quarterback.

Oh my.

For the Falcons. All right. Bucs wide receivers. We don't know what's going on. Tess Johnson left with a groin injury. Jaylen McMillan didn't practice after banging his knee a couple of days ago. And Godwin and Ibuka were given a maintenance day. So they were like, nah, it's worth noting.

Tez Johnson has gotten a lot of buzz of being like the star of camp. You know, when it comes to the star of groinindex.com right now, it does stink that he— what about me, Jason? Yeah.

Oh, 1999.

Oh, there I am.

Oh, that's a Ted Hurst reference.

Yeah, that is a Ted Hurst.

Now this is for Ted Fred Durst.

Ridiculous. Travis Achan.

Come on.

He'll get an opportunity with Tess Hendrick.

Has taken most of the early down reps at training camp. Alvin Kamara getting third down reps. Ruh-roh.

Yeah, I mean, we say it all the time. Targets are worth more than a rushing attempt for fantasy football.

If you look at— Damn, that's what— Achan's much better at receiving than he is at running.

When you look at where—

Kamara's much better at receiving than Achan.

This is the problem. That is a problem. That's what I've said. Since they signed was originally when it was signed, it was like, oh, Kamara's not going to be on the team. He's clearly not only going to be on the team, he's going to be part of this backfield. And I think right now ADP says that Travis Etienne is like just, he is guaranteed to be a 3-down workhorse back. I don't think that's happening.

It's the name. We're still trying to figure it out.

Etienne.

We're trying. We're trying our best. We're going to find out real soon.

We have, you know, it's August. So you got people coming back to football and they might not have any idea, but petition him. I know we need to talk.

We need to talk to Pat Bryant in line for a bigger slice of the pie in Denver, which would be good because Denver, they need something different on the offensive side of the ball. I mean, they were one of the teams like for me, Denver is the team that jumps out as a potential 13-plus touchdown jump. I mean, Denver only had 45 touchdowns last year. It was middle of the pack. You know, you had one Bryant being the wide receiver 3 doesn't make me think there's going to be any regular fantasy value, but no, but it's great for Bonilla.

I mean, I mean, if he establishes himself as the wide receiver 3 in camp and it's like not just this committee because right now I'm projecting the 3rd to be a committee. You're going to have Mims involved. You're going to have Troy Franklin involved. You're going to have Pat Bryant maybe leading the 3, but if he fully establishes himself as the 3rd. Do you think there's a chance as a young player he can usurp Sutton, Courtland Sutton this year and become the wide receiver 2 for the offense? Like, is that in the range of realistic outcomes?

I would, I would, I would say that's not impossible, but this is more of a like, but you wouldn't be surprised. I actually would. I would be surprised. What I would not be surprised of is if heading into next year, they are like, we're going to move on from Sutton and it's going to be Jalen Waddle and Pat Bryant.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that that whole offense is going to be very, very interesting to watch this year with Waddle's addition with the ensemble of running backs. Like seems like Dobbins is the guy.

Oh yeah.

But then it seems like Harvey might get third downs and Jonah Coleman is just around. The, uh, Gofflin is just around.

And a last piece of news real quick, Andy, because this, because this is just, this is great news. It's fun. Tank Dell.

Yeah.

The Houston Texans.

Yeah. Is practicing with pads first time in years.

This is awesome. We haven't seen him in like over a calendar year since the—

Oh yeah. It's been basically 2 years.

Horrific injury 2 seasons ago. He missed all of last year.

Was that the— just correct me because it's a long time ago.

Yeah.

That injury, was that on the block?

Yes. He was in line, goal line block.

Yeah.

Because, or was that a previous other injury?

No, no, no.

I'm pretty confident.

I thought it was on the same one.

I thought it was on a catch.

I thought it was on a catch on the back of the end zone.

Yeah. I thought it was a touchdown because he was so long ago.

Yeah. It was on a catch because the year before I had traded for him and he was left in on a blocking down, went in and then was knocked out for the rest of the year. And that was, I forget that. I mean, he's had injury issues throughout his career, but when he's been on the field, he's been awesome.

It's really tough for—

and Stroud was much better with him.

Yeah. A guy that's £165. I mean, we, we gave him guff when he was in line block. Like, what is he going to do as a blocker? He's not really changing things.

Yeah. So he, he broke his fibula on that block in 2023, missed 5 games, ended his season, and then the dislocated kneecap was the full season. So there you go. But he's back.

If it— man, if the NFL and the Texans are better if Tank Dell is playing at a high level.

Yeah, absolutely. We'll take a quick break and then get into the countdown.

Tight ends.

All right, guys, we are jumping into our tight end rankings countdown, the top 10. Looking at positives, negatives of these players, obviously the tight end position is, well, it's a polarizing spot. I mean, you have these high performers, difference makers at a onesie position. If you have one of those top guys and somebody else is out there streaming the position, it can be a huge advantage on a week in, week out basis. Problem is identifying the sleeper ones that can perform out of nowhere and making sure that you're draft, if you're going to spend high draft capital, that guy is an every week start. So we'll also look at the beginning schedules for these guys a little bit. So let's start counting it down.

Number 10.

Number 10, Travis Kelce going on 37 years old. I have him ranked the lowest. I've talked about it recently. I'm pretty out on Kelce. He's just not. One thing I wanted to do, and maybe Kyle, while we're talking about Kelce briefly, final seasons for some of the greats. I'm just kind of curious where Antonio Gates, Tony Gonzalez, Jason Witten, you know, Jimmy Graham, like most of those guys from my recollection, like I remember Jimmy Graham being pretty irrelevant at the end.

Yeah.

I mean, he had the, he came back and had a bunch of touchdowns, right? In one of those.

Well, he just saying he had the patella tendon tear. That was a different word.

Yes.

But, but look, it is, you know, whether you believe he can contribute this year or not. He'll— Antonio Gates' final year, final 2 years, he was 37 and 38 years old. He caught 30 passes each year. They were basically irrelevant years. His last good season, 36 years old, 53 for 548 and 7. We know the trajectory right now on Kelce is it's going down. It's just a matter of how low does it go. He tends to be out there. But if he gives you, if he gives you 6, 7 points a game, you're not going to be happy.

No, no, you won't. The thing is, is right now you've got a tight end who last year had over 100 targets. You've got an offense that I think should be better than last year, not necessarily an old-school great Kansas City offense, but adding Kenneth Walker I think really does help the offense in general. If you have someone that's going to catch 80 passes, they're not going to be bad for where he's being drafted, but the upside is gone. You're not having a player who's making a difference at the position. You're just simply trying to say, I think when you draft Kelsey, you're taking your, your, the approach of I punted the position, but I don't want to stream and I'm just going to try to be okay with whatever mediocrity he provides. And maybe that's the wrong, maybe that's the lazy way and streaming like the question should be asked here. Would it be more valuable? Will you score more fantasy points if you're streaming off the waiver wire this season or if you just play Travis Kelsey every game?

I think, I think once we establish matchups about halfway through the year, you can stream it better than Kelsey personally. But I think that's up for debate. Fair. I mean, it's fairly up for debate. I think you're going to find yourself thinking this is where I think you're going to end up. You're going to think you can start him every week because of the name, because you drafted Travis Kelsey. And I think you're going to not know when to pull the trigger on changing that out. Now, your point about the offense being better, I think that's, Well within the realm. I mean, the Giants scored 7 more touchdowns than the Chiefs did last year. The Pittsburgh Steelers. Did you like that offense?

No. Vomit.

7 more touchdowns than the Kansas City Chiefs last year. Patrick Mahomes is coming off a serious injury. The identity of this team is going to be the running game. Rashi Rice is coming off a serious injury. And I'm not so certain that this offense is going to be significantly better. I think their defense is outstanding. They spent all of their draft capital and trades on making that defense top in the league. I'm not sure you're going to have it opened up enough for you to be happy because all of his targets now are close to the line of scrimmage.

That's why I'm still okay with Kelsey as the tight end punt of— I feel pretty confident that Kelsey will finish in the top 10. That's not always great for your fantasy team or making a difference. But they— he's going to be the number 2 target. He will have 100 targets again if he plays in all 17 games. And he'll give you roughly 9 points a week.

You think he's the number 2 target? Because I think that they're going to have to make a transition at some point in time.

But to who?

Yeah, I mean, whether Cyrus Allen or Xavier Worthy can step up, I don't know.

I just think tight end snaps may come down. I think you're going to manage him.

It's possible.

Yeah. I will say that older players, you know, we've seen this with Keenan Allen recently. Like sometimes they get off to a decent start to the year.

Sure.

The first month of the schedule is, you know, they're favored in all 4 games. First week's a little hard at home against Denver, but then Indianapolis, Miami, Las Vegas, those are great matchups. And then they go on their bye week. So maybe you're right. The second half of the year you stream, you grab Kelsey.

Play him for a month and then start knowing what the matchups are and shout out to Tony Gonzalez who at 37 years old had 121 targets, 83 for 859.8.

I think, I think Kelsey can, I mean, it's, that seems right in the range.

Yeah, it's possible.

That's the upper range.

Number 9, it's Kyle Pitts coming in at our consensus number 9. Jason and I have him at 8.

This is the man of what do you possibly do with this? What do you do with Kyle Pitts?

I mean, Kyle Pitts is going to be on the field for 90% of snaps. Kyle Pitts is the second best pass catcher on the team. And Kyle Pitts is 25 years old. I don't know where the confidence is in Tua, but I think it's higher than Pinnocks. I don't know if it's higher than where you thought Cousins was last year.

It's probably pretty neutral, maybe a little lower.

I just, I find myself in a tough spot like all of us forever and we will forever be, I think, with Kyle Pitts here. I mean, he was a monster over the final 6 weeks. It's been brought up ad nauseam that Drake London wasn't there.

Yeah. I mean, obviously you do have that built-in upside.

They said he looks like he's running better than he's ever run before.

I've seen that a lot that his, this offseason, he looks athletically like kind of the player they drafted has been a problem.

It absolutely has. Like for years when you're watching Kyle Pitts where the rookie year that the touchdowns were disappointing, but to have over 1,000 yards as a rookie at the tight end position is, that's very impressive. And then kind of since then we've been watching him saying this doesn't look like, that doesn't look like the same player. So after maybe he just had, maybe he had long injuries that just were, they wouldn't clear up. Maybe they're cleared up, but he is, they paid him a lot. I'm not drafting him.

I'm not either. But I think it's worth noting that he does have built-in upside of should Drake London get injured. We saw him truly dominate when he became the de facto one. So we know he can do it. And so there is that kind of built-in, that's not built in with everyone else. Like, like right after him is going Sam Laporta. If, if Jameson Williams goes down, we've seen the splits. Laporta is the same with and without Jameson Williams. However, the guys around him like Laporta, better offense, more expected touchdowns. Tucker Kraft, you know, when we've seen him, much higher upside. Harold Fannin.

I'm going to say that I'm in on Copitz.

Yeah.

I'm in on Copitz. They just paid him a ton of money. You need to stick around. No, I don't need the camera.

In fact, hold on.

No, no, no, no, no. Put the camera on Jason. Oh, what? Put the camera. I'm in on Kyle Pitts. No, that's me. I'm saying it. I just, I don't want the camera.

I mean, Stefaniski has given us success at the tight end position.

No, I'm in. I'm going to wipe the slate clean each and every year. And I'm looking at the contract, the roster, the offense. Kyle Pitts is going to be a focal point.

Year 6 breakout.

It's happened before at the tight end position.

I don't think that's the quote I'd use.

Wait, is this year 6? Yeah. Wow. Crazy. Okay, so let me ask you this because the next tight end we're talking about here is Sam Laporta. Wait for the number 8.

I was putting on a tease, Mike.

You can't give the name. No, it's—

Yeah, they normally reveal before the number, but it's fine.

They're going right next to each other in drafts. So right now, what I'm seeing, 704, 706, they're basically— you're picking one of these two players. So you are picking Kyle Pitts.

Yes.

Because you are in uncovered. So you will take him over Laporta. Okay. I just wanted that established.

Yeah, I will. I think that Kyle Pitts is going to be a focal point of the offense on a regular basis. So I'm not proud of it. I'm not. I wouldn't tell anybody else.

We have them ranked identical. We both have them as our tight end 8. Obviously last year he was the tight end 2. That's a little bit.

Here's a real question for you.

Okay.

If you think, I mean, are you, are you just drafting Kraft and Kittle automatically assuming they'll be fine ahead of Kyle Pitts?

I am not. I believe Mike is.

I would. Yes.

So, you know, are you drafting Fannin automatically ahead of Pitts? Probably. Yes.

The cost was the same, I would much rather have Fannin.

All right, Sam Laporta is who we're talking about now. Nobody knows this man better than Jason Moore. He's been on his team in a bunch of mocks in a row. I got him at 9, Mike at 8, Jason at 7. I mean, Sam Laporta, he's a great tight end. He's going to be out there every snap for the most part. The team has an incredible schedule. They're favored in 14 of the first 15 games. They also have a ton of weapons. Jameer Gibbs, Amon-Ra St. Brown, Jameson Williams. There will be— I think games where you're going to end up with the short end of the stick. He can make big plays. He has a chance at double-digit touchdowns. But we have seen, you know, I mean, Laporta is a pretty safe pick, I think.

Yeah, I mean, that's what it is. I don't see Laporta like he can't differentiate himself from the other target monsters at the position. He's never going to have 140 targets the way that a McBride or Bowers or some of these second-year tight ends might get to. But the touchdown upside is clearly there. He's already had double-digit touchdowns in his career as a rookie. He's on a team that is expected to score a ton of points. And I think this is just a player where you're going to have consistency. When he doesn't score a touchdown, it's not like he just disappears, but you're going to have a lot of touchdowns. And if you end up with let's say 9 touchdowns this season, very reasonable for him. That means there's— I mean, when your tight end scores a touchdown every other game, at least that week you have a good chance of winning. And, and so I would rather have a guy who can get in the end zone. Like, I, I think Laporta has way more touchdown opportunities than Pitts. Pitts might have more targets, but I'll take the touchdowns at the tight end position.

Like, last year in his 9 games, You know, Laporta had 4 of them were over 10 points. It like, yeah, I would rather hitch my wagon to Laporta.

All right.

Number 7.

Tucker Kraft comes in at number 7. I got him at 5. So that's—

Oh, I thought this was only Mike's dude.

No, I have him ranked at 5.

All right.

Team Tucker, which means he is above Fannin in my rankings and below Bowers, McBride, Loveland, and Warren right now. I do think he'll be there from week 1. I think that, look, I think their offense is interesting top to bottom. I think you have players that we're excited about. Christian Watson.

Yeah.

You know, Jaden Reed getting some talk about some 2 wide receiver sets. All the feedback, I know we're bitter towards Matthew Golden, but all the camp talk has been very positive around Matthew Golden. It's an interesting offense, but Kraft was kind of what made it go last year. And I do think he's going to be back and healthy. He was the tight end 2 in fantasy points per game. So I don't think ranking him at 5 is insane.

No.

And this is not a one-hit wonder either. You have the breakout from last season. That was it. You know, it was a handful of games where he was upper echelon top tier. But you go back a season. This was the tight end 9 with 8.1 points per game. The year before. They already knew what they had in Tucker Craft and just built him into the offense a little bit more. He's a complete bully in man-to-man coverage. You know, tore the ACL. That's the whole storyline. But I think, I think he's going to be good. They're favored in their first 6 games of the year. It's a nice slate for him to come out and get acclimated. I'm pretty in on Tucker Craft. Consensus-wise, we have him at 7. Jason, you're the most bearish.

Yeah. So to speak to that, it's really injury and ADP. So he's coming off of an injury where the expectation early in the offseason was he'll start the season on the PUP. Then as time went on, it got more and more positive. We've seen him at camp now. He's looking great. If he's running straight, he looks amazing.

He's running straight. He's looking great.

He, you know, he should be there for week one.

Tucker Kraft.

Straight is enough.

Yeah, just, that's all I need.

Pull people over.

Hey, inline, run a seam route and then run.

Inline feeling fine.

Well, the nice thing is even with that, you've got, you have a lot of bars for TK. You have a lot of plays that the Packers set up like play action where they kind of leak Kraft out. You don't have to be cutting these amazing routes to catch the little dump off in the flat and then just go mow guys down. It's almost unfair to talk about his points per game because his last game he got injured and wasn't really involved. He was 14 points per game in the game, you know, full games that he started on pace for 1,139 yards. So I don't blame either of you guys for just taking the shot, the swing of saying if he is healthy, he is going to— he was truly dominating. However, for me, like he's going right next to Harold Fannin. If I wanted to take a tight end, he's healthy and looked great and scored more fantasy points last year. But he's also going next to other guys at other positions like Jordan Tyson than the guy who played in 8 games. Availability is the best ability.

Gosh.

But Jordan Tyson is right next to him. Okay.

Whatever.

People do not like that.

Is it— do you think—

score more than Tank Dell too?

Do you think if Tucker Kraft plays 17 games that he definitely scores more points than Harold Fannin?

If Tucker Kraft plays a full season, yes, he will score more points than Harold Fannin.

Yeah, the difference in that offense is just going to be pretty large. I mean, Fannin's going to be great, but you did add a couple more weapons in that offense and our quarterback, uh, You know, that's the differential to me, the quarterbacks, the offensive system. I still love Fannon. That's why he comes in at number 6. Harold Fannon, 22 years young, and the tight end 5 last year in Cleveland with shared time with Njoku, with no wide receivers, with no quarterback. This is only one of 2 rookie tight ends to go 70 for 706. He is an electric player. Harold Fannon is awesome. And if they were smart, which it seems like Monken's going to do.

Oh yeah.

He's going to use Fanon a ton. So if you want to hedge against injury, these guys are back to back in my rankings. I don't blame you at all. If you have a, you know, this is where, this is where I think for you where you have like a tier of superstars, right? So you've got McBride, Bowers, you've got Warren and Loveland.

Yes.

And that's your core 4.

That's my core 4.

And I can kind of see that where it's like, then you can make some really different decisions with like Fannin and Kraft, Kittle, if he's healthy to start the year. You can throw Laporta or Pitts into that group. It becomes more muddy. It becomes more plant your flag on the offense that you like a little bit. You know, you talked about a reason to like Laporta over Pitts is they're going to score a lot more touchdowns in Detroit than they will in Atlanta. You can make that. That's part of the Kraft call over Fannin, I think, is that I think Green Bay is going to be a great offense on a great, you know, great team. I think Cleveland is going to be better than people expect, but offensively not a top, you know, 20 team.

None of us picked them to be the team to score 13 touchdowns this year.

I thought about it though. I did.

They improved their offensive line in the draft. They've got, you know, an offensive-minded head coach now and some good rookie wide receivers. Yeah, I think that they could be a surprisingly, you know, much better offense. To me, Fannin is the one player I am very fearful of getting wrong because I'm pretty much out on 6th round tight ends. So like if, and that's what it is for me because I don't have Kraft and Fanon in the tier of the elites. I don't think they are. Do I think they're better than the other tight ends I'm going to get later? Absolutely. But I think it's a point a game. I think it's irrelevant for winning and losing in fantasy. This was one of my 10 things to remember is that the difference between the tight end 2 last year and the tight end 12 was pretty meaningless last year. And so if you're not one of the elites, I would rather have a 5th round, a 6th round, a 7th round pick of the running backs and wide receivers there. Take the shot of those guys. But Fanon, what he did in college was so productive.

And then to come in rookie year and be that productive is like, oh, maybe he is just that dude. But on the offense, can he finish top 3?

No.

No, I don't think so.

No. And I'm my— the argument against Fannin is just the Cleveland Browns. Like, I'm with you guys of he is an awesome player. But looking at the competition for Harold Fannin last year was Jerry Jeudy. I know he had to, you know, he had to overtake David Njoku. But it's like Jeudy had a 20% target share. The next highest wide receiver target share would have been Cedric Tillman, or I'm sorry, Isaiah Bond at 8% and then Tillman, Njoku's at 9%. So it's like these, a first round wide receiver, a second round wide receiver.

Let me give you the counterargument there. The counterargument is the Cardinals.

Okay.

The Cardinals have Michael Wilson, Marvin Harrison Jr. as part of that offense, but Trey McBride is the bona fide number one guaranteed target in that offense.

Yes.

I wonder if, because when I see Fanon, the part I'm worried about getting wrong is that this guy could lead the league in receptions at tight end. That's my worry is not from a quantity. I mean, he had 107 targets last year as a rookie. That's the part I'm worried about getting wrong is that he is the PPR winner of the year.

It's actually better than the 107 targets. If you look at when Shadur took over in week 12 and you take out the injury game at the very end of the season, He was on pace for 142 targets with Shador.

So McBride, like those guys don't take away from McBride leading the league in receptions at tight end.

Yeah.

So rookies are not going to—

I'm saying it's maybe these are, but these are unknowns where it's like Marv and Michael Wilson. There's some unknown about them of where they could end up this year, but we have no idea how Concepcion and Boston are going to factor into taken away from the target. If those—

is there any chance he has fewer than 100 targets on this offense?

So I don't think so.

I don't think so.

Okay. So at least that's built in as a floor for Harold Fannin, I think.

Yeah. I mean, I love Harold Fannin. When I say I'm not drafting him, it's really just draft price. If he was in the 9th round and I'm giving up a mediocre 6th, I believe right now.

Okay. Yeah. That'll be a tough decision, I think, for where people want to tier him mentally because of the Brown situation and I'm curious. I'm going to have Kyle pull some data on top 3 tight ends over the last decade or so and how many of them are on sub-500 teams because I'm very curious about that. So I'll give you that information shortly.

Number 5.

I can tell you last year he was on a sub-500 team in Trey McBride.

You're talking about the number 1 tight end.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yep. George Kittle.

Come on, George.

Comes in at 5. We all got him right there. Mike at 5. We're at 6. This one's been evolving. It's going to continue to evolve over the course of this month. Major injury. Not a spring chicken. George Kittle, almost 33 years old. Also not as old as Travis Kelce by any stretch. And, you know, the touchdowns with Brock Purdy have been there. That was an early career situation with Kittle where you're like, he's going to catch a bunch of passes. He can make a big play, but he's probably going to end up with 5 or 6 touchdowns. He's got higher upside now in this offense. And for goodness sakes, they don't have any, they don't have any wide receivers that are healthy.

No, George Kittle is the entire, the entirety of the bet for George Kittle is, is health. And so it's like, there is no, there's no doubts of, of how dominant George Kittle can be for, for the NFL, for fantasy football. You know, his, his rookie year wasn't great, 5.7 points per game. But since then, his lowest is 10.7.

That's huge.

Like he's, he's a double-digit point machine at the tight end position. And I, and things like the ceiling that the connection he has with Brock Purdy, it raises the stakes even more in, in my opinion. So everything is just, do you think George could be healthy? We have him at 5, which is, way above market. And like my bet is a season-long bet. It, I think it starts slower for George Kittle, but over the course of the season, I think he returns to form and becomes the true dominator that, that we have seen every year. And it's tight end 10. So if you want to protect yourself, you know, if you want to take George Kittle and then Dallas Goddard and then Dallas Goddard or one of the, you know, like likely or Kelsey or, or, or even Travis Kelsey because Kelsey will give you a floor and that's a draft strategy that is plausible taking Kittle in the 9th or 10th round and then coming back and taking Travis Kelsey. It's, I think it's an interesting strategy for this year.

The splits with Brock Purdy over 4 years, if you spread them out over a season, it would be 81 catches on 106 targets. For 1,145 yards and 11 touchdowns. That has been the, you know, that's much better than his splits with a different quarterback in San Francisco. Now, Mike, you did read the tea leaves on CMC's health last year.

Yeah.

Would you mind letting us know the exact situation for George?

I actually would mind.

Oh, you would?

Yeah.

I thought we were going to get the answer. I am much more worried about the injury. I mean, my ranking says how I Yeah, your ranking says you believe he's going to be there for 17 pretty darn healthy games. I do think second half of the year he might be good. He's a human and while he's unbelievable, he's 33 years old.

He's a dog.

He's a dog. He's 33 years old.

He's a man. He's not a human. He's a man.

Old for a football player coming off of a very difficult injury and I know it was a better version. Like the, you know, we keep hearing like, oh, it's the Achilles tore at the right spot. It's like, well, there's no good spot for the Achilles to tear.

There's worse spots.

There are worse spots, but he still tore his Achilles and is coming back. The last video that I saw of him, he's out on the sideline. He's working, but he looks to me like he's a ways away. So I'm a little bit more skeptical that you will like holding on to him for the first half of the year.

All right. We'll take a break and come back with our top 4 and some sleeper picks. All right. I do have that information for you before we move on to our top 4, which we'll, we'll probably get through them pretty quick. You guys know the names. Top 3 tight ends over the last 5 years, 6 of 15 were sub-500 teams. So it does lower your odds. Certainly you want to be around the end zone, right? Just, I was curious about that. You know, Bowers, McBride twice.

Some of that's tough because like Travis Kelce is every year, you know, pretty much over the last decade been in the top 3 and he's always going to be on a winning team prior to this year.

I think it's like the, you're either a dominant player at the tight end position, which there's very few of those if you're talking guys who are getting it done in the passing game. The guys who can rise are— that's the offense is going to carry him.

Yep. Makes sense.

Number 4.

Tyler Warren comes in at number 4. Jason just talked extensively about Tyler Warren on our Fire and Ice episode. But the TL;DR of that is great. It was a great rookie season when Daniel Jones was healthy. Focal point of the offense. You lose Michael Pittman, beneficiary of those low, you know, the intermediate targets that Pittman was great at. And, you know, Alec Pierce, Josh Downs on the outside, you know, Downs is unproven out there. They want to try him out, give him more opportunities. Pierce got paid all that money, but he's been a deep threat most of his career. Warren's going to soak up the middle of the field, benefit from Jonathan Taylor pulling up defenses. So I think we're all very comfortable with Tyler Warren. Jason's got him at 3, Mike and I at 4. That's the only difference. Jason has him ahead of Loveland and we have him behind. Meaning number 3. Number 3.

Mr. Loveland. Mr. Loveland.

It is Mr. Loveland. 22 years old. Mike and I have him at 3. Jason at 4. Finished 11 last year. Came on like gangbusters at the end of the season. A chess piece for Ben Johnson. In line 56% of the time, but then in the slot 22% of the time. Out wide completely 18% of the time. You know, the debates around Burden, Odunze, how valuable are they? We know Loveland is going to be a focal point.

Yeah, but the quote that we have gotten recently, and I don't, I don't have this.

Well, it's from an ESPN article.

Okay. From ESPN was that Loveland is the sun of the Bears solar system of receivers. And that feels like kind of how we anticipate this going. We have the fight of I love Rome, you love Burden, and I've certainly warmed more and more on Burden. I still don't like his draft price, but that's all right. We universally come to the same agreement that is the best weapon on this team, and I think the— I personally have it now as the target leader for this team is Colson Loveland. The issue is that there are other really good targets. If, if Caleb is throwing for sub-4,000 yards and you have 3 really good options, is the consistency going to be there for Loveland? If, oh, Luther Burden went off for these 4 games and, and Rome went off for these 3 games or whatever, will we be disappointed in the price of Loveland because of those weapons? That's my only concern because I think The tape showed and the playoffs showed that he can be a dominant top-end force.

Yeah, I think the interesting thing is looking at the final 3 weeks of the year in the playoffs when he was really a part of the offense, seeing that playoff target share at 28% in an offense that had DJ Moore at 17% at the time, I feel like there'll be plenty of weekly upside combined with, I think, a good floor for Colston Love. And that's why I have him ahead of Warren. I just like that offensive system better. Yeah, I would expect—

both are good. I would expect the Bears just to outscore the Colts. I mean, when we were preparing for the show and going through our UDK stats and we were looking because free rankings kind of disagreed with the UDK rankings because one is done by stat projections, one is just done by linear rank. And we took a look at these two guys, Loveland and Warren. I don't even know if you know this, Andy, because it was Mike and I looking at it.

I probably don't then. We were almost Identical.

I mean, the points between Loveland and Warren for all three of us are like flip a coin as far as total fantasy value. I do think it's a one round difference. Yeah. I mean, that's why I like Warren more. It's cheaper. And I think his floor might be higher. But when we're trying to win this championship, the ceiling is higher on the 100%. Like if both of these guys go off this year, Loveland will be the winner.

I think about it the exact same way. I think Warren is probably a safer pick for— like, this is going to be a top 5 tight end. It's just if, if Loveland hits the way that all the chatter is from this, from training camp in the offseason, he was the number 10 overall pick. You know, we have the anecdotes of phones were ringing off the hook during the NFL draft. Colston Loveland gets drafted by the Bears, which was a little bit of a surprise per the mock drafters. And then all of a sudden the phone stopped ringing because people were trying to move up to go get Loveland. He is, I think he will be the focal part of the Bears offense.

The seedling is, he's a more athletically gifted player than Warren is. And Warren's very good. It's just Loveland is just much more of a If you want to break away touchdown, that's not going to be Warren.

Warren's going to break some tackles and get you 20 yards on a cool catch. Loveland's going to take it to the house behind the back.

The chance of Loveland usurping Brock Bowers as the number one tight end at the end of this season to me is much higher than Warren.

Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it.

Um, what about number two?

Nope, no more.

Let's go to the next player. Trey McBride. Did you, if you want to, I can talk Loveland all day.

I was just going to bring up the negative quote of the fact that he's been seen as a dynamic pass catcher, but he is rapidly improving as a blocker. That's, is that scary for fantasy?

No, because you know who's a great blocker?

George Kittle. I think there is some value to, we love our tight ends that aren't, you know, the Jimmy Grahams. They don't actually play the tight end position, they play wide receiver. But there is definitely value of the, I'm in line, I'm looking like I'm going to block, but I'm just a chip. And then I leak out for the play action and then hit a big play. Number 2. You sound like Strong Bad. You're checking out the emails.

Oh, hotel bueno. Is that Homestar? Trey McBride comes in at number 2. Is that disrespectful? This was the first tight end in history to have 100-plus catches in back-to-back seasons. He has Jacoby Brissett fresh off of that sweet $15 million check they're writing him. Completely dominant last year with Brissett, number 1 overall fantasy tight end, and yet he comes in at 2 at our consensus rankings.

That is not an insult to Trey McBride. That is simply a belief in Brock Bowers. Trey McBride, the only negative thing you could possibly say about his outlook is that it is somewhat probable that during the fantasy playoffs he has a third round rookie quarterback slinging him the ball. That's the only fear I have. I mean, Trey McBride is the leader of this offense. You know, the questions of will— is Marv good? Did the Michael Wilson— all that's irrelevant. Those guys are so far behind in the pecking order of McBride. The offense runs through him. He will be awesome again. Much better.

Play caller, you know, he's talking about the, yeah, yeah, you know, the situation for Arizona. I would trust LaFleur to do more with his best player.

Arizona had a ton of yards last year because the defense was bad and the defense is just as bad this year. But they didn't score a lot of points when you, when you look at like total team scoring when we were, you know, looking at who's going to take that jump. They have room to, to really grow and you add love, you know, in the backfield.

Yeah. Is that a positive or a negative?

I think it's positive. I think having a better offense is always just good.

They just, they had nothing at the running back position last year. That's why they, their pass rate was so extremely high and like they were running so many plays. We brought up the stat earlier of He essentially ran multiple games, multiple games worth more of snaps. Kyle, correct me if I'm wrong. I think the most snaps or most routes run for a tight end ever in the history of the NFL is just those things.

Jacoby Brissett was on pace for 685 passing attempts, which is an outrageous number that has to come down. Number 1.

It is Brock Bowers coming in at number 1. The most. Talented tight end up there in football with the fact that he's the clear number one target with Clint Kubiak, who called him a football robot from heaven. What's better?

Being the son of the solar system. Well, heaven is much better. Or a football, but you're a robot.

But you're from heaven. You know, heaven is above the sun and the stars. So I mean, it's clearly Clearly Brock Bowers is better here.

You want to know something?

Remember we were having the debate about Gandalf versus Dumbledore? Dumbledore? I didn't— I talked to somebody with knowledge of the Lord of the Rings universe. Gandalf is part angel.

I am unaware of this. This is what they told me.

This is— Now if I'm quoting it, they said from— I think it's— Get Colbert on the phone. The Silmarillion, you know that book? Talks about that. I think he's— Interesting. It was spitballers. We were talking about this on spitballers. But when you said heaven, it reminded me of— I wanted to let you guys know I'd done some research.

Yeah. Well, that's important.

We appreciate that.

You know, we're looking at these top 4 elite tight ends. And, you know, my argument for Warren is that Downs and Alec Pierce are not as good as the weapons there. You know, all of these other 3 guys have at least capable receivers. On the roster who might break out. Marv might break out. Rome might break out. Burden might break out. Alec Pierce might break out. There ain't none here, brother.

No one on the Raiders. They gave Naylor a bunch of money.

Naylor has the same risk that McBride has though that you mentioned. Well, it's, which is that it's not a third round quarterback.

No, it's not a third round. It's the first overall pick.

It's the first overall pick, but the same risk of quarterback change at the back half of the year.

You would assume it will happen. Very rare in this day and age for the number 1 overall pick to not get in. But that is enough of a difference to me, Carson Beck versus Mendoza, to where, you know, and, you know, Clint Kubiak, he was— LaFleur might be a good, you know, they're both offensive-minded head coaches, but Kubiak was the prize of this offseason.

What's crazy is that this, you know, may seem really obvious to be like, okay, 1, 2 is McBride and Bowers in some order. The truth is you're going to put them in the order that you, you believe, but they're going directly back to back in drafts. So this is a, like, you do have to just pull the trigger on one. Like, if you're, if you're going to be there at 205 or 203 or whatever, wherever you're at, you're sacrificing obviously a very high quality wide receiver running back. And you have to make the call here and you don't want to get it wrong because you're investing so much into a, fantasy tight end. So is it possible to get this pick wrong? Really?

No. I mean, injury will get it wrong with— oh, you're saying between the two? I think you're going to be—

can you really get that wrong?

So I think you could get it wrong where you will have regrets. And the only way that you get that wrong outside of injury on the regret front is that what Bowers does is truly break, you know, the position. I think that is in the range of outcomes last year. That's in the range of outcomes.

That's the funny part. Yeah. It's like he did it.

What did McBride score last year on? What was his average? He was unbelievable.

He was like 4 or 5 points better than the tight end too. Yeah.

So that's the part where it's hard for me to be like, you know, the Raiders were what, dead last in the NFL in touchdowns scored? Correct. And so now you're bringing in Kirk Cousins. I don't, I don't, that's the part where I have more confidence in the, in the connection between, like, I'm going to, I'm going to switch these two. You're moving. I'm sure they're basically, yeah, they're 3 points apart in my rankings, but out of respect for that connection already built, I'm going to make that tweak. Okay.

So I just, I will say right now McBride is going ahead in ADP.

By exactly one pick. Yeah.

I mean, that's, that's what Andy's doing right here. He's saying, if I'm on the clock, I'm taking McBride. I'm going to take McBride.

And I look at the end of the year, I think the Cardinals score more touchdowns than the Raiders do. So I mean, I think that's good. And now repeating 11 touchdowns, is it hard? Yeah. Is he going to do it? Probably. He'll probably do it. Bowers might do it too. These guys are going to be, it's going to be a narrow, very close situation, but It's tough. I know you are the most like into Brock Bowers you've ever been, you know, in terms of like looking at him as the bona fide number one overall at the position.

Yeah. I mean, it's tough. They're both great players. I don't think that there's a bad pick here. And I will say that my strategy for last year, by the way, my strategy this year is get an elite tight end. And that means only these four. And perhaps even if you want to take the strategy to just like, we know Bowers and McBride are going to be dominant. Warren and Loveland are projections. You're hoping now they're a little cheaper, but they still cost a lot in drafts. If you wanted to take the strategy of it's just Bowers and McBride or else punt, like I'm, I'm fine with that as well.

Bowers and McBride are both around Josh Allen category. I mean, could, yeah, won't this be your decision between if you're going to go onesie, you go Josh Allen or you go Bowers-McBride? Probably. How do you view that in terms of advantage for your team, Mike?

I lean the tight end spot of getting one of those two guys. It's not a lack of confidence in Josh Allen. It's just a, you know, finding quarterback production is—

You've got guys you like later.

It's just easier and more predictable on a week-to-week basis than, you know, streaming a quarterback, um, if depending on your league and how they handle the waiver wire, but in terms of just the process of identifying the quarterback that should have a good week compared to the tight end, it's, it's easier on the quarterback.

Yeah. It's, I mean, we started this episode talking about Travis Kelce. He's our 10th ranked tight end. And so if you're going to take one late and one early, the difference between Travis Kelce is like the tight end 10 versus You know, Trevor Lawrence right now, ADP-wise, is the quarterback 10. It's like, is Travis Kelce— does Travis Kelce have a chance to be another, like, absolute difference maker at the position? Probably not. Does Trevor Lawrence? Sure. Probably. Does Dak? Does Jackson Dart? Those guys, those are all those guys.

Tyler Shook. Yeah. Bone Nix. Sleeper tight end you're interested in? Because this is, you know, we have our top 10 by consensus, but throwing out a sleeper tight end. For me, it's Goddard. I've brought him up a couple times. Whenever AJ Brown or DeVonta Smith has missed time, he's been a huge beneficiary on the offense. AJ Brown is gone.

He's going to miss some time for the—

Makai Lemon has had two hamstring injuries. We don't— right now it looks like Dontavion Wicks is the second man up, which to me makes Dallas Goddard the wide receiver too.

Eli Stowers has done nothing. He's been buried on the depth chart so far in camp. So I like that. I need him to get it together. I agree. Mine is the guy I took in our last mock draft, Dalton Kincaid. The team picked up his fifth year option, who's first round pick. He was literally the best in the entire league at tight end at yards per route run. The problem was he wasn't healthy. He only ran 15 routes per game.

How's he doing right now?

Very healthy. There was a miniature scare where it was like, oh, he went down. And so he was interviewed afterwards about like what happened. I was like, was this the knee again? He's like, no, he got, he got it in the family jewels as he said. Shout out. Yeah.

Not enough people saying the family jewels. I feel like I haven't heard that since like early Simpsons, but currently very healthy and obviously having Josh Allen as your quarterback doesn't hurt.

And I'm going as I like to do the Senator with the tight end position.

Oh, Jason guys. Like if Benson happens. We're the show. We're just, we're going to close it down. Don't worry about that. Good news, book land.

We aren't going nowhere. Just saying.

No, I'm going with, you know, we've talked about, you need a tight end who can become the number 2 or the number 1 option. The Miami Dolphins, it's gross down there. Andy is a big believer in Malik Willis. I'm more on your side of, I think that he is more likely to be a good quarterback than not. Who's the number one option there? I guess it's Malik Washington right now, just de facto. But Greg Dulcich is there. His, you know, the nerd stats, the yards per route run, pretty good. 2.38. Not a huge sample size for him. He's had his moments as an NFL player. He's had moments and he has the athletic profile that we want. When you're just taking a random shot at the tight end position. Athleticism matters. This isn't like, you know, like guys at running back and wide receiver, they can be slower. It's just, it can happen. But, but an athletic tight end, they are more likely to break through. He could end up as the number one target for this offense. That doesn't mean I'm saying top 5 or anything, but it's a player who is right now undrafted that I think he, like, he could be a sneaky top 12 guy at the end of the year.

There's always There's always nasty tight ends that sneak in there. Yeah.

And this is also something where, look, if you might not get drafted, you probably won't get drafted in your league. But when you're looking at what happens and you get a sign in week 1 or 2. Yeah. Week 1, 8 targets show up. Right. And even if he doesn't catch them all or doesn't get in the end zone, look for— I love looking for tight ends through the target lens when you're looking at the free agency. Yeah. See who's getting action.

Fannin was there last year on the waiver wire this year. I mean, Isaiah Likely might be that. Chig might be there.

Or Sadiq or somebody. Yes, Sadiq.

There's a lot of options.

All right. That'll do it for today's episode. Mock draft episode tomorrow. And then we'll resume rankings episodes as well. FootClanGiveaway.com for that signed Bijan Robinson jersey if you want to check that out. And the ultimate draft kit is UltimateDraftKit.com. Thank you for tuning in, Foot Clan. Thank you for coming along. For the ride. It's going to be a fun August because Carson Beck is starting tomorrow, guys.

Oh boy. Here we go. Goodbye.

Thank you for listening to another episode of the Fantasy Footballers Podcast. Join our fantasy football community on jointhefoot.com and follow us on Twitter @TheFFBallers.