Transcript of Gillian Anderson

Hi, my name is Gillian Anderson, and I feel nonplussed about being Conan O'Brien's friend.

I sometimes go into this thinking I want an honest answer, and now I don't want an honest answer.

Fall is here, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brand new shoes, walking loose, climb the fence, books and pens. I can tell that we are gonna be friends.

Yes, I can tell that we are gonna be friends. Hey there, welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. Sonam Sethian, very nice to see you.

Nice to see you too.

As always. Matt Gourley, pleasure to see you.

And you, sir.

Have you noticed anything different about me these days? I'm driving a different car.

Are you?

I'm not going to name brands or anything, but I had a little difficulty with my car and I've been leasing it for a while and it, I just kept having to go into the shop. So I finally parted company with that car. Don't have a car. So my kids are out of town. They share a Subaru Forester. Oh, that's maybe about, I don't know, 7 years old. It's covered in dirt and I'm tooling around in this car, which is a very fine car by the way. And by the way, not getting a dime from Subaru. I'm just saying it's a fine machine. But it's really funny because it's just a filthy car for some reason. I don't think my kids take it to wash it much. I don't know if that's what young people do is wash a car.

I can't remember the last time I washed a car.

That's not what old people do.

Yeah. And also, I don't wash mine either.

Really?

It's not— also, it's not my car and I'm not— I'm not— I have yet to take it to the car wash. So I'm tooling around in this thing and I'm sometimes I got the window down, I'm bopping to the tune. Someone will pull up to a stop and they'll see me and I'll give them the nod. But I know they're looking at me. Yeah, yeah. Like, why doesn't he clean his car?

Do you think, though, that they ever think, that can't be Conan, it's just a Subaru? They expect you to be in a—

First of all, I'm going to stick up for Subaru because I think it's a fine car.

I like Subarus.

Again, not getting a dime. But no, today I saw a guy looking at me at a stop sign and he kept thinking, I think that's Conan, but he looks like he's delivering pizzas.

Yeah.

I've always heard Christian Bale drives like a really shitty early '90s coupe because he thinks no one recognizes him if they see him in it.

Yeah, but then he has that bumper sticker that says, I am Christian Bale. Oh yeah, that always fucks it up. I'm Batman.

Yeah, that's cool.

I should just get a ton of bumper stickers that say things like, I am Conan O'Brien.

Yep.

Conan O'Brien needs a friend. Yes, it's me.

Uh, I'm Batman.

I'm Batman.

No, no, you're not.

Well, I'm kind of Batman in a way.

How so?

How so?

Well, for years I worked at night.

Uh, okay, you know, and you taped during the day, you know, I did at night.

I watched my parents murdered and it made me want to stop crying.

You didn't see them murdered, you you sat and just, like, watched.

That implies, like, you knew it was gonna happen.

That's how I always— you know, that they always talk about the Batman story, like Bruce Wayne is in an alley and he witnesses his parents getting— but I think I like the idea more that he watched. Maybe he heard his parents were in trouble, he went, hold up, and he went and he got popcorn, and he just— yeah, he sat on a trash can in that alley in Gotham.

He's like, this will be all right, proceed, this will be formative, this could lead to something.

Well, you know what, he really wanted to turn into an amazing superhero. And he knew the best way was to watch his parents get shot in an alley. Oh, so he kept contriving situations like, hey, what do you think's down that alley, Mom and Dad? Well, I don't know, Bruce. Let's not worry about it. I don't know, it looks pretty good. He tried that for, for at least 2 years, and then finally he just took his mom's pearl necklace and just threw it down the alley. And she was like, Bruce, you're an asshole. Help me. Help me, Bruce Senior. I don't know the dad's name, do you?

Uh, Thomas?

I was— I looked right at Blay.

Blay, do you know it's Thomas? Guess what? This is a nerd sting operation. Oh, busted! Take him away, boys. Oh, I'm so glad I passed. You know what? I did this whole thing to get to this and then say, I wonder what that— And also, Blay did that thing I love. He grabs the mic and he yanks it almost out of its holder up to his mouth. And he went, Thomas!

And did you notice there was a split second before he answered? But that wasn't because he didn't know. It was him going, should I do this?

I know.

That is actually correct. That is 100%. And what was his mom's name? Uh, uh, Martha. Nope. Enid. No, it's Martha. I just made it up.

I thought for a second his name was Wayne Wayne.

There's an alternate.

There's a Wayne Wayne.

Would have been cool.

Wayne Wayne Wayne.

I say Wayne Wayne promised never to get shot in an alley. There's an alternate. Oh, and his, and his, uh, his, the wife's name was Lil. Yes, that's great. Wayne Wayne. Wayne Wayne and Lil Wayne went down the alley. I hate it here. I hate it here. Anyway, there's an alternate reality— no one's asking— there's an alternate reality, but you're still telling. Yeah, yeah. Uh, version of Batman where, uh, Bruce and Martha get killed and Thomas the father becomes Batman. Oh yeah, I know that Batman. He has a lot of trouble getting around. He's like 58. He's, he's like, I'll get you, Joker. Uh, gotta soak this hip first. Um, yeah, it doesn't really make sense. It was a big reveal. I just, I was just excited about it. Excited about what? The fact that there was an alternate reality where the, the dad is Batman. That's, that's cool. An alternate reality. Listen, we talked about this before. I don't like portals in, uh, in Marvel movies, and I don't like alternate realities.

Did you?

I don't. Stick to one reality and write a good story. Hey, it worked for Hemingway. But no, alternate realities. You know, what if Bruce Wayne was allergic to corn? There's an alternate reality. What's your alternate? I was just going to say, were you in an alternate reality?

No, this happened last night because by now the summer spouses thing has come out and we were out in the lobby watching our three spouses do a podcast without us. And it felt like an alternate timeline.

It did feel that way. Yeah, it did feel that way. Watching Tack, Amanda, Liza do a podcast, and they were sitting in our exact places, it did look like this was some weird fold in time or ripple. They had the podcasts, and we were disgruntled.

Oh, wait, wait.

What?

Oh, let's get to that. What do you mean?

So, hmm, okay.

You didn't like Liza being in your seat. You got angry.

No, no, in the alternate reality. Yes, because in real life, I know Amanda's very unhappy with you, and Tag's very unhappy with you, and we all know Liza's every day is like, "Why did I make this deal with the devil?" Yeah.

I think they all three took this thing as a launching pad to get out from what they're—

Yes.

Yeah.

Liza misunderstood it. When she showed up for this thing, she had packed a bag. She seemed disappointed when we were going home together, and I got there, and before she could get upstairs, I found a note. It said, if you're reading this, it means I've launched my own— I have joined Tak and Amanda and we've escaped our dreadful lives. I was like, hey, what's this? And she went, oh, don't mind that. It's a creative writing assignment. But then I noticed out of rags she had made a rope that went out the window, which doesn't even make sense.

Uh, makes no sense.

She came to the podcast with me. Anyway, maybe took that too far, but, um, walk out the front door. I think— what's that? Our front door doesn't work.

Oh, it doesn't work?

Yeah, any other doors? Fire department keeps saying you need to change that. I'm like, doors really need to open. Uh, back door doesn't work either.

Um, how do you get in and out?

I go through the chimney. To me, every day is Christmas.

Oh God. Um, imagine if Santa Claus was Conan.

Oh God, can you imagine a lean, sarcastic Santa Claus?

Every child would be given a stamp that just says invoice. Or something.

The only way they get presents is if he wakes them up and they laugh at something he does. If they don't—

that's the nice list.

Yeah, yeah. It's me as Santa flying around looking at a list of kids that find me amusing. And out of, out of 6 billion kids on Earth, there's 3 kids on the list. It's just a lottery. Yeah, it's just 3 kids on the list.

Yeah, you get stuck at one kid.

And they just happen to be kids that know that's the rules, so they're like, Wow, great anecdote about the '90s. Uh, I'm gonna say we should examine this, uh, opening because it might be one of the dumber ones.

It's pretty dumb.

Yeah, pretty dumb. Yeah, pretty bad.

But, uh, you gotta learn the Wayne parents' names.

Yep, yep, that's right. Wayne Wayne and Lil Wayne.

Yeah.

Uh, all right, my guest today is an Emmy Award-winning actress. She's probably out the door now.

I would be.

This is Where's that alternate timeline?

How do I get that? Uh, she starred as Agent Dana Scully in The X-Files, of course. Now you can see her in the new movie Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma. They stole my title. She's so talented. Uh, it's incredible. And thrilled. Uh, this is her first time on the podcast. Uh, can't wait to chat with her today. Gillian Anderson, welcome. I'm thrilled you're here. And I realized this morning, I think the last time we chatted was 1995.

Insane.

And you came on The Late Night Show.

I was a baby.

You were a baby.

You were a grown-up to me.

I probably was.

And an adult.

But I look at it now. You are a baby when you come walking out. I look like a slightly older baby, and I definitely look like someone who should not be having a talk show. Hosting a show. I'm glad that we can reunite now when I'm a little more seasoned.

Yes. And I'm old enough to know what nonplussed means.

There is so much to talk about. You have a new movie with one of my favorite people, Hannah Einbinder, and— I was going to start with this fact about you that I didn't know, which is that in your class you were voted girl most likely to get arrested.

Correct.

And then you made good on that.

I did.

You got arrested.

I did.

For breaking into your own high school?

Yeah. Well, we were trying to glue the locks shut so that people couldn't go in the next day. Right.

Or get out if there's a fire. It works both ways.

Yes, but there weren't any people in the building at the time. It was the middle of the night.

That's an aggressive prank.

Yeah. That was kind of me at that time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You had your hair was shaved on the sides. You went through like, is it a punk phase? What would you describe it as?

Yeah, it was a punk phase, but I had very pointy buckle boots on and they had a very thin sole. And so when the security guard was chasing me through downtown Grand Rapids, I stepped on a nail, and that's what slowed me down.

So were it not for the nail—

Were it not for the nail, I would've outsmarted him, and I would not have been arrested. But because I'd been— Let's just say I was doing a little crystal meth at the time, and I was in a really good mood, and I managed to talk them out of breaking and entering and just into trespassing.

Oh.

But my boyfriend who was with me at the time, who was considerably older than I was, went back to his apartment and smoked some more dope and just kept drinking the night away while I was in prison.

With a nail through your foot, whacked out on crystal meth.

Yeah.

Those were good times. Anyway—

What a dick!

Hey, tell her your crystal meth stories.

Okay. So about 4 hours ago, I find what looks like just little dust. To me. I'm like, I'm gonna put that in my nose. And then I found a gun. It just goes on and on and on. Um, your sort of bifurcated past of being, you know, I think born in London but then moving to—

no, uh, born, born in the States, but then you moved to London. Moved to London, yeah. Grew up in London until 11. But then you moved back, and then I moved back post-X-Files. I moved back to London. So I've been there for 24 years.

But I have this theory that— just bear with me. Yeah.

Okay.

You are so—

It's already funny. You are so nonplussed. Sometimes I find that really creative people go through this period in their youth when they kind of don't know who they are, and that might be fuel. And if you're in Grand Rapids, but you have a British accent, and you don't quite know how you fit in, that maybe that's fuel.

Oh, 100%. I mean, I think when I, you know, when I first got there, I did have a British accent. I worked very hard to erase it, but it would pop up, you know, in restaurants when I'd be ordering, you know, or trying to show off or something like that. It would pop up. But, you know, because it was My first language, my first dialect, so to speak, the first time I spoke it was with a British accent. It was so ingrained in my system that it's near impossible for me to be around Brits without falling into it. It feels more— it feels as intrinsically part of me as my American accent.

I did a thing with Hugh Laurie once on the set of House, and he was playing Dr. House in this little thing we did for the Emmys, I think. And someone on the crew was British and said something to him, and he was like, "Oh my God, please don't." 'Cause he— If he heard the British accent, he would fall back into it. It was quite disconcerting, but I could see that he just couldn't have it around.

Yeah. Sometimes if I'm doing interviews that I know are going to go out in the States, but the interviewer is British, I have to really focus, like really, like almost split my brain to keep it American.

I always think it's funny to think of, even think of someone from the UK trying to lose their accent because I love that accent so much.

I love it too.

Do you know, I come from Boston, Massachusetts, and that's an accent you want to lose. And I don't care who from Boston hears that. That had to go. And if I, you know, or from Cranston, Rhode Island, that accent has to go. But whenever I hear someone with a British accent, I just think it's fantastic. I'm envious.

I think it was an attempt initially, maybe, to feel like I fit in. And then also because, you know, when I was growing up in the UK and I, you know, I spoke like a Brit, my parents were referred to as Yanks. So I was teased because my parents were Yanks. And so, And then when we visited America, it was so sunny and sugary and it represented lightness and joy and possibility as opposed to London at the time in the '70s, which was mashed potatoes and curry.

And quite dark. You said mashed potatoes, like what's wrong with that? Every meal for me, yeah. Well, also, the '70s is in Britain, in England, famously kind of depressed and—

Very, very depressed. Yeah. And so, I think I was almost forcing myself to switch.

I was also very surprised at just how young you were when you started X-Files. You're 24, and you lied to the producers and said you were 27. I'm not sure what difference. It's 3 years.

Yeah.

Oh, is it 3?

Yeah. I'm really glad I checked.

Eduardo, could you check that on the internet, please? Yep, it's 3. That is so young to get a man—

But I was playing somebody who'd had degrees already and was already in the FBI and had gone through medical school. So, you know, I should have been— not 24, for him to be real.

Sometimes when people have that success and they're young, they don't enjoy it. Did you enjoy that fame for, you know—

No.

You didn't enjoy it?

Hated it.

Yeah.

Yeah. Hated it. I mean, I think we were very lucky that we were shooting up in Vancouver for the first 5 years because, you know, when we were in LA, you know, we had the experience that a lot of celebrities did at that time, which is followed everywhere and, you know, chased down the street and photographed with kids in playgrounds and all that kind of stuff, which I found disturbing. And that really angered me. I pointed my car at many paparazzi over the years. And so being up there and not having that, it just didn't exist up in Vancouver, was very freeing. And also, it just felt like it was separate from the business. I think that kept us a little saner than we might have gone.

Plus, the schedule on a show like that, and X-Files in particular, was grueling.

Yeah.

And sometimes that's the savior. Like, I always found a lot of times the work, if I have to do an intense amount of work, it saves me at the same time because I have to be locked in. If you're in Vancouver and you have to be on set at, I don't know, 5, 6 in the morning, and productions go on and on. This went on for 9 years.

Yeah.

I'm not asking you, I'm telling you.

But we, you know, our— As you know, you start at 5:00 AM, but by the time you get to Friday, your call time is 1:00 PM because you have 12-hour or 11-hour turnarounds. And so we'd shoot until the middle of Saturday. And they were, you know, 16, 17-hour days. And we shot 7 pages a day. You know, it was mostly the two of us pretending to be the smartest people on planet Earth.

And which means that we had a lot to say.

Yeah.

I mean, the speeches are fantastic, but they are so— It's interlocking prose. I mean, you guys were so good, but you could just toss it off. But I know that that was and took an incredible amount of work to get there.

Yeah, it did. Chris told me, I mean, that there was a particular way that we used to speak in the show that wasn't a normal rhythm and syntax. It was slightly backwards, which felt like it was almost part of— the cryptic aspect of the series. And it wasn't until we were working on this, I think the second feature, and I was sitting in a parked vehicle waiting to shoot, and our showrunner and creator, Chris Carter, came up to me, who was directing the feature. And he said, he looked at my sides where my lines were, and he said, "Look, no widows." And I said, "What are you talking about?" He said, "No widows on your little paragraphs that each character has." The word went all the way to the end with the period. So there wasn't any— You didn't end halfway through that line. So it was a perfect rectangle. So the dialogue was designed—

Visually.

Wow.

For 9 years.

Wow.

That's incredible.

So you're struggling.

Wow!

You're struggling with his OCD. Yeah. That's incredible. I was like, "Are you fucking kidding me?" Just so it looks a certain way on the page.

Amazing.

Amazing. Yeah.

He's a frustrated student of architecture.

I know.

I love him, and I appreciate him, and I don't mean to call him out because it's just— it's such a fantastic— It's like it says so much. I mean, it's like—

Is that his term, widows? So—

I don't know.

I assume—

Yeah, if a word's broken in half, I guess it's— Yeah, it's lost its other half, you know? So yeah, I guess that.

Or even the line is broken in half. The actual— Yeah. Wow.

I love that. And I'm going to start structuring the podcast that way.

What if we just adjust the margins? No?

No?

You know what I love? If we go down this rabbit hole for the entire chat with Gillian, We never get out of it. Her publicist crashes through the door. "Enough! Enough!" "What are you talking about margins?" "Yeah, yeah." "Yeah." "What if you switch the font?" "Thanks, Shona." The show had an incredible impact. And famously, there's this term, the Scully effect, where a lot of— young women were watching, and they—

it was unusual at that time, sadly, but to see a smart woman on TV.

Yeah, to see a really smart, empowered, independent woman on television who was incredibly well-educated and confident and, and an equal to her coworker. Yeah.

Yeah.

And so, in principle, yeah, not a bauble, not a, you know, And this was— A lot of women have said they saw that show and it made them want to go into STEM, made them want to maybe try to be in the FBI, try to— Which is remarkable.

Yeah.

I still have people coming up to me and telling me that they are in, you know, a physicist because of Scully, or a police officer, or a, you know, name the fill-in-the-blank. It still happens.

Yeah.

That's a lot. I mean, that's a— I don't know. It's a nice gift.

It's cool.

It's very cool.

I mean, it's been written into textbooks and stuff. And still, you know, not only does it still exist in a way, even though, you know, it isn't a weekly TV show, but there's a lot of people whose lives the show really affected, whether they watched it with their parent who's no longer alive, or they watched it during a difficult period of time for them, or their I know I still have people that come up to me that say they watch it every day. It feels like a rite of passage for them to pass it on to their kids. And so there are a whole new generations that are discovering it, which is pretty awesome.

Yeah. You can, you make friends with all these people you haven't met. In a way, you have this very powerful connection, which is nice and it's enduring. I applaud you. And I also applaud myself.

Why you?

I just thought it— for symmetry. No, no, no, it's not symmetry. You know, looking at how you look on the page, you want to make sure that Julian has applauded.

This is the time we can have a widow.

Just put it— You have so many great performances, but I love the show The Crown, and you played Margaret Thatcher on The Crown, and you were stunning. Absolutely stunning. Margaret Thatcher fascinates me. I know that she's very controversial, to say the least, in England. But you made me sympathize with her. I was really blown away. There's a part in your performance where Thatcher realizes she's losing power. Your depiction of her, this— I mean, famously, this woman of steel, the Iron Lady, It was just fantastic. And I'm wondering, how do you approach— Okay, you're going to play someone, everybody knows this person, thousands of hours of footage of her, but you made her your own. I don't even understand how that— I know it's called acting, but I don't know how you take on a project like that.

Mm.

So, I knew I was going to be doing it for some time, so I had a good run-up to it. And although the scripts weren't written yet, As you say, there's a ton of material out there. She'd written a couple of autobiographies, and so I started listening to one of them on repeat in my car when I was driving, and I did a lot of driving at the time with kids and stuff. And so that was one way in. There was also a series, a BBC 6-part series that happened to exactly during that time while I was doing preparation, which was also the most personal take on her, the most insight into the behind the scenes of her life during those years. And some of the most helpful footage that was in there, which had never really been seen before, was there were a couple of interviews that she did where she doesn't know that the camera's rolling. So even though you've got these, you've got other documentaries that have been made about her or little snippets for TV shows, you know, when she's she's showing people around Number 10 or she's, you know, got her apron on because she's in the kitchen and she's making coffee for her ministers or whatever it is, she's still on camera.

So that's a public version of herself trying to be the everywoman, you know. But these moments before she would do an interview, she didn't know the camera was rolling and she was going through her lines in her head, or one of them was practicing a speech. And she was, you know, working on the lines in her head. She was bending down to her purse to take a sweet out and put it in her mouth. I mean, these are like gold, right? You don't get to see that stuff. And so, the mixture of the little tidbits of pseudo behind the scenes that you got to see in this doc, and also these moments of vulnerability, were really, really helpful. And, you know, One just starts. It was important to maintain, for instance, a little bit of my own voice within her voice, to not push too hard into her. I really didn't want it to feel like it was pantomime. And there was enough with the costumes and with the wig and her particular walk and all that, that you could— it would be quite easy to kind of slip into that. That. So, somebody said something that was really valuable, which is, "You get quite a lot for free when you cast me as Margaret Thatcher." So, I don't have to work for those things that I know, you know, just in terms of my seriousness or my ability to look like I might be intelligent, even if I might be thinking about my socks, or— You know what I mean?

I just have a resting intelligent face, even if I'm— the least smart person in the room, right? So, you get that feeling.

Resting intelligent face. I love that. I'm gonna try and— Oh, no. Oh, no.

It's not working.

It's not working. I'm looking even dumber somehow.

And so, that was really helpful because it felt like I could let go of trying to fill in those blanks and just work on— Anyway, so, but, you know, as with anything, You try, you prepare, you do your best, you show up, and then you just— I mean, I really felt like I was crossing my fingers before it came out because I didn't know. I didn't know if it would work. I didn't know if I'd be ridiculed. I didn't know if people who really knew her would say, "Oh my God, what a joke. I mean, why did they cast her in the first place?" You know what I mean? You don't know. And so, it was nice to get—

Yeah, it was absolutely spectacular. And I know stage is a big part of your life.

You did—

this production of A Streetcar. Oh, I knew it. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

No, no, no, I understand, I understand.

Eh.

That's not what I was gonna say.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. It was a different production. Oklahoma.

You were fantastic.

You were just perfect. No, your streetcar is just kind of famously amazing. I know that you've talked about the anxiety you have. When I see— when I go to the theater, even though I'm nominally in show business, I am terrified for actors going up on their lines. It can be hard for me to relax. And, you know, obviously, if it's someone like John Lithgow in Giant, I know, "Okay, John's got this. You don't have to worry." But I can't imagine anything more terrifying than being in front of an audience and going up on your lines. I was shook. Thanks, Conan.

Thank you so much. I'm about to do a play. I start rehearsal next Monday.

Okay.

Okay. Thank you.

I really— It was nice to meet you. It was really nice having you. So, let's see. It'll be 32 years until I see you again. We're like comets that pass each other, but not in a good way.

What?

But you're so— I don't know. It stunned me a little bit that that would be a concern of yours when you're so good.

Oh, it's always a concern. And also, just brain stuff, you know, as we get older.

I talk about this all the time.

He was just talking about this before you came in.

Yeah. Came in this morning and I put— I mean, I realized on the drive to work that my wedding finger was on the other hand.

Your wedding finger?

My wedding finger. My wedding ring. I'm telling you.

I'm so sorry.

You joke about it, but I'm telling you, there are days where I'm convinced.

Yeah.

I mean, that's a very primal thing to do, to put— to switch the rings on the different hands.

I don't know. It's just rings.

I also had a lot to drink this morning.

That's smart.

But I just—

No, the brain stuff, I can't necessarily rely on it, or I don't feel like I can 100%. I know other actors who— Olivia Colman famously will memorize on the way to work in the car paragraphs and be ready and word perfect. I would literally give my lower half of my body for that. For that.

So specific.

Challenge.

How do you walk around on stage?

Yeah, that would be the only place. She only plays Franklin Roosevelt. She's playing Roosevelt again.

Yeah. So, you know, I'll do my best.

Well, I'm sorry. I wish I could encourage you, but there's nothing to indicate that this— you're going to make it in the theater. There's just nothing. You're in terrible trouble. Wowza. No, I mean, you know, if only you had done some past work that would recommend. Let's talk about Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma. I knew nothing about the film. I got to watch it last night. I love going in knowing nothing. And whenever even someone tries to tell me, sometimes in the notes, they'll say, you know, this is about— and I intentionally don't look. But it has a fantasy element to it. It's the visuals. It feels— It's a heightened reality. It's really great. It's you, Hannah Einbinder.

I adore her.

And so, when I found out both of you were in this, I was like, "I am down. I'm gonna like this." And I really did. It's unusual. It's— I haven't quite seen a movie like this.

So, it's Jane Schoenbrun, who did— I saw the TV Glow and We're All Going to the World's Fair. And this feels very much like it's in conversation with TV Glow in a way, but it's a queer slasher film, and there's a lot of blood, but it's very funny, and it's not very scary.

It's really funny, and the blood often feels comedic. It's not—

It's Monty Python blood.

Yeah, it's Monty Python blood. You know, someone's head will get lopped off, and just an amount of blood coming out of the neck, and the force with which it comes out is cartoon— It's a cartoon. Yes. In places. But I think what I liked so much about the story is Hannah's looking for Jillian, who's this reclusive actor who was in this very famous slasher film and has retired and is living up in the area where they shot the film.

And—

I love how you don't want to be told the plot, but you're telling everybody.

Oh, fuck you.

You know? Right? And let me tell you who did it.

But there have been many, many iterations of this film. There's been many remakes that have kind of bastardized it over the years. And so, Hannah's character, Chris, has been given the opportunity to remake the film as she believes It should have always been remade in its second iteration. And so, she comes looking for me to convince me to be a part of it. And then it kind of turns into a bit of a romance.

Yeah. And I love that your characters are rewatching the old movie up at the camp where they shot the movie. It's— It's like an Escher drawing. The hand drawing the hand. It's this great conceit that they're in a horror movie, but they're studying a horror movie. I think you'll really love it.

I'd love to.

You have to check it out. And now you know what it's all about. But I haven't really given much away. Or have I? It's just a lovely film. It really is. And so, I'm happy for you about that. And I really also want to talk about more. Because this book, I believe, um, will be coming out in September. You put out a book called Want, and it was, I would say, like a labor of— what would you call it— a labor of love that you— this was something you really— this is something you really wanted to put out there.

Yeah, so, um, I, I was actually approached while I was doing Sex Education, um, which was a series I did on Netflix. I was playing a sex therapist, and to Asa Butterfield's character who is my son. And a lot of publishers had approached me through my book agent saying, you know, would I be interested in doing a book as a therapist or talking to women about their sex lives, etc., etc. And, you know, she had rejected a few offers and then she had an idea which is in '73, which is the same year as Roe v. Wade, Nancy Friday put together a book called My Secret Garden, and it was a collection of letters that she had collected from her community of friends and women writers. She asked them to anonymously submit their fantasies to her, and then she published them, and she wrote introductions to the book and to the chapters. And And so the idea was that we could do one again and see if anything's changed since the '70s, particularly given the state of the porn industry and our collective addiction to it, and just how much sex is out there and available to everybody at all times.

Has that affected our ability to to be honest with both ourselves and our sexual partners about what it is that we— our deepest, most intimate thoughts, and also shame around it. Is there, for me, I was really interested to know whether there was— whether because of how second nature sex and sexuality and such at the forefront of so many conversations and advertisements and TV shows and et cetera these days, has that had an impact on women's internal lives and their sense of themselves, their bodies, their levels of self-acceptance and shame, et cetera. And so when she, my agent, brought up the idea of doing this book, it made sense to me. Like because I was on the show, I thought it would be really interesting to know the answer. And I thought, you know what? It makes sense that I do this based on the character that I play, based on the fact that simultaneously, I was also launching a functional drinks brand called G-Spot.

I was gonna ask you about G-Spot.

You know where to find it.

I've heard— Is this about the soft drinks or the— I can never— Every time I look, I can't find it. They say, "No, it's right next to the Pepsi." Pepsi. I'm like, I still can't find it.

I'll send you some.

All along it was next to the Pepsi.

And so I thought that would be, I thought it'd be a great idea. So, you know, we pitched it out and we went with Bloomsbury and with Bloomsbury, we set up a portal, a secure portal and invited women around the world to send in letters. And we got, you know, a lot, a lot, a lot. And we narrowed it down to 174, and I wrote introductions, introduction to the book and to the chapters, and that was Want. And it had, I remember about a, shortly after I had put the call out, so to speak, for women to write in, I was doing press for a Netflix film that I did called Scoop. And I was talking, I was in New York talking to women journalists and they didn't wanna talk about Scoop. They wanted to talk about this book that I was, that I was about to write. To do. And I thought, oh, this is really interesting. There is actually a big appetite for it and women are curious. And it did well enough that we thought we'd do another one and try and reach even more women. The point of it is for it to be as inclusive and diverse and raw as possible.

And I think that this new one is even bolder. Yeah. Even more audacious. Yeah. And, um, yeah, I'm, I'm— there's some really extraordinary—

well, the fact that there's this, um, I mean, it needs to be anonymous so people feel completely safe.

Yeah.

And, uh, I don't know how you grew up, but what's fascinating to me— and I, you know, love my parents and had a, I think, a happy childhood— but, um, sex was was just never discussed in any way. And it was almost nullified. Like, it's just not a thing. Even though I'd look around and realize there's 6 of us, born literally like 10 months apart. So, something's going on somewhere, but it— And that was the—

Something's going on somewhere.

Yeah. Before egg hatched.

Golly, something's up.

I'm a good detective. I have my little Sherlock Holmes cap. And I think however much that was so for me, even probably more so for, you know, the women in my family, I think it was really, you know, that's just not something that exists or desire or anything like that. It was something that wasn't discussed. And so, it shouldn't be shocking, and it shouldn't be any kind of revelation, but flipping through the book, And just reading all of these fantasies by these different women is incredible. It's really amazing. Who knew that they could feel pleasure?

Well, women?

Yeah.

Oh.

Yeah. Well, women I've been with. Well, maybe not them. Definitely not them. I'm saying, yeah. Some of them have written into this book.

And they haven't even redacted your name.

No!

Or theirs.

"My wife wrote in 7 times to this show. I can tell." She's like—

But also, what's remarkable about it is there's such tenderness and joy and so much heart and loneliness. And there are women in there who haven't even— you know, have maybe just gone through puberty, girls. There are women who haven't lost their virginity yet. There are women in their 70s who talk about just wanting to be kissed and held because they've never really had that in relationship before. And it's really remarkable, but it also begs more investigation when you start to to read it, or even if you imagine yourself writing a fantasy down, the transference from it being in the sacredness and the secret space of your mind to transfer it onto a piece of paper or onto a computer, let alone send it through the ethers to a publishing house. But once you start to ask the question, What is it that I want? What is it that I dream about? What's the gap between what my fantasy is and what my experience is? A lot of people, if they fantasize, wouldn't necessarily want the fantasy to actually happen. But if you start to ask questions about, am I getting what I need in that area of my life?

And if I'm not, how am I Am I participating in me not getting that? You know, and therefore, if I am participating, if I am complicit in that relationship of not getting what I want, also, are there other areas of my life that I have needs and wants that I'm not expressing and I'm keeping myself from experiencing the fullness of what I could in my life? And so really deep questions start to take place when you start to interrogate Um, these things.

And I think phones and the ubiquity of the internet has really complicated things, uh, because there's a whole generation that feels they can get a lot of their needs met just on their phone. And what is that interrupting? What is that dampening? I was listening to a long— I think it was a New York Times podcast about it where they said people that say, why risk going out and meeting people and possibly getting rejected and having all the discomfort and weirdness that might go with a hookup when I can stay in and watch pornography?

Yeah.

And I'm safe and—

Yeah.

No effort.

Yeah.

So, you know, it's really great that you're doing these books. It really is. And I'm sure a lot of people are getting a lot of solace, information, and not feeling alone.

Yeah.

Not feeling like, oh, this is just me. I'm ashamed. Something's— I'm afraid. Something's Wrong with Me.

Yeah. Well, I've done some events to raise funds for charity around it. I did in the UK at the Barbican and Royal Albert Hall, did events, you know, in full houses inviting, you know, women and men and everything in between hearing celebrities, a handful of celebrities reading from the book. And just the sense of unity and Recognition and joy and hilarity. And in this new book, the two letters that I talk about the most, just one for the juxtaposition, but also because of just— it shows the multitudes of complexity within a woman's experiences. One woman who fantasizes about being in a vat of spaghetti and naked, and she's sliding around, and there are meatballs sliding around. Oh, that one was good. That was mine. Well, thank you so much. It's gotten so much attention, that one.

I love spaghetti.

It really had nothing— It was not an erotic fantasy at all. It's just she loves spaghetti.

Yeah, yeah.

But it's really delightful, and everybody, you know, it really sticks in people's minds. And then another one, a woman who has recently had a— a double mastectomy who is curious about not just relearning her new body, but having the experience of learning it and feeling it again through somebody else and their experience of it. So looking forward to having a sexual experience, but with this new body and exploring what what, you know, the different ways that she can feel again something that she hasn't for quite a while. And, you know, obviously that's incredibly moving and, you know, extraordinary that somebody took the time to write about that and to send it in and to share that very vulnerable experience.

So there's a very wide range of But also, I'm sure healing for them to get this book and see that they're in there and they're being heard in a very powerful way.

Yeah. I've got one more story, which is at the last or the penultimate event that I did at the Barbican, Olivia Wilde read a particular story about a woman who fantasized, who moved into a new neighborhood with her husband and good friend for, uh, they've been married for a long time. And there was a woman who lived down the street in her new neighborhood, and she, um, uh, fantasized about her. After the show, I did a meet and greet, uh, to raise more money for charity. And, um, a woman was there and she said, my letter was read tonight.

Oh wow.

And I said, wow, I said, "Which one?" And she said, "If you don't mind telling me..." She had a meatball on her head. She still had spaghetti sauce on the side of her face. Let me guess. She said, "The one that Olivia Wilde read." And I was trying to think, I was trying to think. And she said, "And this is my new partner." Oh, wow.

That's crazy.

She was actually there sitting in the audience with the woman that she was now partnered with, having fantasized about. And I have to say, the book is not a proponent for leaving long-term partners. Long-term relationships and, you know, throwing a wrench into your lives. But at the same time, you know, that's an extraordinary story and experience, and those things happen for people.

It's remarkable. Yeah, it really is remarkable. Um, just want to make sure that— yeah, Want is the original, which is always available, and More is coming out, I think, in a couple of weeks when this drops.

September 10th, I think.

Yeah. And, um, Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma is a wonderful film. It doesn't roll off the tongue, that title. But it's really wonderful. And it has been way too long since I had a chance to talk to you. And you're remarkable. Really are. And so thrilled that you could make the time to come in and talk to us.

Thank you.

Really great.

Thank you. That was such a pleasure. It's nice to see you again.

Nice to see you as well. Well, that's our time. I've never ended that way. I'm pretending we're a radio show now. It's news and weather now. Ten on the ten. Oh, by the way, the wellness drink. Oh yeah. The G-Spot.

So it's not actually a wellness drink.

What are the flavors?

It's not actually a wellness drink. No, no, no. It's like a, it's a healthy functional soda.

Okay.

So it's got adaptogens and nootropics in it, like lion's mane and cordyceps and et cetera.

Great.

And it's, one is called Lift and it's red berries and Serrano pepper. And there's one called Protect, which is ginger and peppercorn. It also has turmeric and vitamin Bs and Cs and stuff. And then there's, Soothe, which is scarlet apple and sage, and it's got chaga and it's got a lot of sage. It's apparently really good also with gin. But, and then—

I'm listening.

Or you can just have gin.

Or you can just have gin. No, but it's a really good mixture too. But yeah. And then there's what's now called Awaken, which is a bit of an aphrodisiac, which we have actually wrapped in collaboration with MUBI. For the film, and it's usually purple. And the liquid itself is a beautiful purple color because it's got butterfly pee in it, which is— its real scientific name is Clitoroli or something like that, or something with the word clit in it.

This is the one for me.

But it's a very— it gets your blood pumping a bit. Anyway, so we wrapped it like the movie with Little Death on the front and stuff. And so it's—

I'm gonna check that out.

Yeah, that's passion fruit and habanero, that one.

You know, we'll get some and bring it in here and have a tasting.

I will get some sent to you guys. Don't worry about it.

I'll get some sent. Well, thank you so much again.

Thank you.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

Okay. David Hopping, uh, has an item he wants to bring to our council meeting. What do you got there, David?

Yes.

Thank you for having me. Um, I have found a quiz online that is called Platonic Healthy Relationship/Friendship Quiz.

Ooh.

And we are gonna find out if you two have a healthy relationship. Okay. This is all gonna be really Sona's answers.

Yes.

You're welcome to chime in, but there's 20— there's—

do you wanna do the number?

We'll do as—

no, we'll, no, we'll just do as many as we can.

Yeah.

Just so, uh, this is a quiz to determine if we could have a healthy platonic relationship.

We do have one. We do have one.

Yeah.

Okay. So we're going to start. Sona, number 1.

Yes.

Is Conan supportive of your passions, work, hobbies, and other aspects of your life? Yes or no?

Actually, yes. Yes, he is very, very supportive.

Yes.

Does he encourage you to try new things?

Do you encourage— Yeah, you do. You encourage me to get outside of my comfort zone.

Yeah. Until like I do suggest, you know, try doing some work at some point. That's it. That's a new thing. So, yes.

Does he listen to you when you need support?

He does. He actually, you know what? I thought this was going to go another way.

It's going really well.

Does he smack cookies out of your hand?

Does he respect your boundaries physically, emotionally, related to your time or otherwise?

No boundaries. I do not. If she's eating any food item and seems to be enjoying it, I will slap it out of her hand.

If I'm wearing a hair bun, he will slap it until it unravels. He constantly shakes me and just to shake some sense into you. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much.

Does he create opportunities for you to spend time with people other than himself?

Are there people other than myself? So that would be a no.

That's a no.

That's a no. That's a no.

Does he encourage you to balance your time between the relationship and other aspects of your life?

You know what?

Yeah, I think I do.

You do. This is sincere. You do.

I do like when you take care of your kids and when you, you know, have fun and—

Yeah, you have a healthy approach to it.

Does he respect you for who you are and doesn't try to change you over time?

Oh no, he doesn't respect me for—

actually, I mean, I did try to change you for a long time and then I gave up.

I don't know if you respect me for who I am. I think you tolerate who I am.

Oh God, no, no, I, I, no respect.

We're going to say no.

No respect.

Is this person not well-liked by your friends or family?

Oh God, no. They love him.

Come on.

It's so sad.

I know. That's one of the most frustrating things about it.

Does your dad know I do an impression of him where I put my finger under my nose and pretend it's a mustache?

Yeah. When you call him Geppetto and stuff, he knows all this stuff. Stuff and he still likes you as a person?

I think he knows it's good stuff.

Oh God.

Does he text or call you constantly wondering where you are?

I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Back in the day especially.

Has he ever accused you of not being a loyal member of this relationship?

No, I haven't. No, she is— I have always said, for all of her flaws, and there are too many to count here, um, she's one of the most— she's— I, I, I trust— I trust Sona with my life.

You know, you know I'm ride or die. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Does he tell you to change how you look?

Yes, he does.

Yes. Yeah, she's gotta change.

Yeah. Like you talk about me getting an industrial press to straighten my hair.

Yeah. But also your clothes. I give you a hard time if you wear the same leather jacket for years and years and years and years and years and years on end. Like to everything.

Big, big yes. Yes.

Does he make you check in a lot to update him on what you're doing?

Yes.

Yes, I do. Yeah.

This is hysterical. I'm curious to see how this is gonna end up.

Always tells me I need to support them and is never there for me when I need support.

Wait, no, I support Sona.

He supports me. That's like kind of the first question.

Yeah.

Does he ever make you feel bad about yourself?

Yes. All the time. Absolutely.

The only way to fix Sona is to get her to realize the monster she already is.

Does he ever limit your access to your own money and does he control the finances? You share responsibility for it.

Can I say something? If I could control Sona's money, I would.

Yeah.

Because it'd be so much fun. But I, I don't do that. He is source of of my money.

Yeah, the golden goose. Has he ever spread a rumor about you?

Yes, all the time. That I steal, that I am—

that you floated to this country.

Yeah, that I floated.

There was a goat attack in Armenia. Yeah, built a boat out of some thatch, put you in the ocean, you floated, you came— I think I said you came ashore somewhere around San Diego.

Yes.

And that's when I found you and taught you to put on clothes and speak and how to speak English.

Yeah, like I jumped out of a— I think your words were I jumped out of a bush when you were walking down the street and I was like, it was only 40 creature?

That's what I said to Rolling Stone magazine and they printed it.

Yeah, they printed it. Yes.

Um, I hope this answer is no: does he ever pressure you to engage in physical touch like hugging or holding hands, etc.?

I mean not sexually but he— You know.

No, do I ask you to do anything?

Oh no! Of course not.

Does he ever blame or shame you when you ask for help or support? Yes. Does he ever make you feel like you need to change part of who you are and that you can't be your authentic self?

Yes, yes, yes, absolutely.

It's a big— I, I don't like that.

Do you ever feel like you're walking on eggshells around Conan?

Yes, absolutely, 100%. If I wear a shirt that's slightly different than what I normally wear, I'm worried, and I think everybody is, that you're gonna make a— if God forbid I wore a denim jacket, you can be like, hey, uh, Leno called and he wants his shirt back.

Not only would I say that, I do say that.

Does he ever yell, belittle, or humiliate you in front of Oh my God.

Yeah, I see where this thing is going.

Does he ever?

Yeah.

Yes.

Does he ever grab, push, shove, kick, punch, slap, or hurt you physically in any way?

Yes, absolutely. 100%.

Every single one of those. And also, can you— is there a place you can write every day? Is there an unceasing box?

Great.

Does Conan ever have big mood swings? They may be yelling at you one minute, then apologizing the next.

That is Conan.

I am 6 feet 4 inches, £193. Rounds of mood swings.

All right. 3 more questions.

Yes.

Does Conan ever try to control what you do, who you see, or how you spend your time?

Yes, absolutely. 100%. Yes.

Yes.

Does he ever get jealous or possessive?

Yes. When I was working for you. Ah, I wouldn't say jealous or possessive, but you'd be like, I am, I should be the number 1 priority in your life. Things like that. Before I had kids, of course.

I still think I should be the number 1 priority.

Okay. All right. Okay. Yeah.

No, they're just kids. You can always get other ones.

That's why he called them rub and tug. In the belly because you were angry that they were existing.

Yeah, you started— they were growing inside you and I was enraged. I think he said that to Shaq.

He did.

Yeah, I think when you were talking to Shaq, you, you said you wanted to call Sona's kids Rub and Tug, and Shaq liked it, and he agreed.

Do you remember his, his suggestions for names were Mark and Marco? They were the same name.

Yeah, but he did say he'd do an Icy Hot commercial. He'd do one and he'd give the proceeds to their college fund.

Nice.

So, okay, all right, last question. Does Conan ever put you down, call you names, or criticize you?

Oh my God, yes!

I don't understand, a bunch of these questions, I feel like they know me when they make—

it really is. This is from like a university website too.

Yeah.

Okay, okay, so now I need to tally these up.

All right, you be tallying, I'll be tallying.

You need to You're going to be tallying while Sona and I talk. Yeah.

You know, I think— I don't know. I think this is going to go poorly for me, this test. That's my— you know, it's one of those things where I don't even need the driving instructor to tell me.

Yes.

Because there's a postman on my windshield bleeding out. So I don't need to be told that this test didn't go well. I know that. But the facts remain.

I love you. Yes.

I care about you. You're a very important person in my life. I'm very proud of you. But my behavior towards you is completely insane.

It's abhorrent.

Abhorrent. Yeah.

And it's everybody. I mean, what if Blay got the question, does he ever beat you? Or—

Blay, because of his size and strength, I am allowed to actually hit.

Yeah.

It's Blay. And like, maybe now it's down to— because people that write for me, a lot of them can't handle it. It used to be Michael Koman was the main— Michael Koman, terrific, terrific writer. Matt O'Brien is still— Matt O'Brien still. And no relation. But Matt O'Brien, yeah, I will, I will pummel him. And if I see, if I just saw, you know, a caution sign on the side of the road, I would pull it out of the ground and be beating him with the iron sign. And that's, and that's my way of showing love.

That's true.

Yeah. I'm more worried the days you don't hit me.

I know.

I think that's the thing. If you did like respect me and didn't make fun of me and I'd be, I'd be like, we need to get him to a hospital. Yeah.

Like, I remember the first time you made fun of me. Sona pulled me aside and was just like, just so you know, that's, that's a really good thing.

Yeah.

You want that? This is how it works in abusive relationships.

You've made it, David.

Yeah.

All right. Do you want the results?

Yeah.

Let's hear it.

You guys scored 24 out of, it just says 30+. You are most likely in an abusive relationship.

Well, I could have told you, I could have told you that.

That this isn't meant to name your experience and just hopes to serve as an opportunity to connect you with people who can help you. If you feel unsafe with this person, uh, help is available.

Yeah. Um, I love that. First of all, this is just between us. This will never go out to the larger world. And oh, are these microphones?

Yeah, they are. They are.

And cameras.

And cameras. Uh, yeah, that's, uh, Well, there you have it.

There you have it.

And I don't dispute any of that. And I would have— the first question should have been, is Sonya in an abusive relationship with you? And I would have said, oh yeah, we could have skipped that whole thing. That could have been done in one question.

The first question should have been, do you work for Conan O'Brien?

A true monster. A true monster. But I meant what I said.

I love you.

I care about you. I don't hit you. You know, I bat at food out of your hands, and I will, if you have your hair up in a top knot, I will knock it loose so it cascades down.

Yes.

But physical stuff, you know, I make sure that it's someone like Bley who can really take it.

Yeah.

And Bley, you're free to make it stop at any time. Maybe. We'll see.

I think it's an honor. I don't know how you feel.

Well, Bley, you can say, you know—

I love getting abused by you. I don't know what that says about me.

There's fans who probably wish they could get hit by Tony.

I know, but this is the best job I've ever had.

I'm not going anywhere.

Going anywhere.

I honestly think it's great. It's like brothers. It's like we're siblings. Well, I grew up, all I did was fight. My brothers and I would fight. It would be fake fighting, but it was a lot of— so there's many ways in which my development was arrested, if you will.

I think we're all substitutes for your siblings, and we're all paying the price.

And they're still paying the price too. You think I moved on from them? I just got more. All right, well, David, this was a really good idea. Thank you.

Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend with Conan O'Brien, Sonam Avcessian, and Matt Gourley. Produced by me, Matt Gourley. Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Nick Leão. Theme song by the White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns. Additional production support by Mars Melnick. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Battista, and Brit Kahn. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the team Coco hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. You can also get 3 free months of SiriusXM when you sign up at SiriusXM.com/Conan. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.