Transcript of Kyle MacLachlan

Hi, my name is Kyle MacLachlan, and I feel fortunate about being Conan O'Brien's friend.

You know what, Kyle?

How about that?

Very few people get to the highest circle. Oh, wait a minute. I'm in the inner circle. I forgot who I was for a second. Everybody's in.

Fall is here, hear the yell. Back to school, ring the bell. Brand new shoes, walking blue.

Hey there. Welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. And I do. I need a friend. Just one. It's never quite happened. I'm joined by Sonam Sethi. I'm your friend.

No.

And Matt Gorley.

I'm here.

No.

Today, beggars can't be choosers at this point. I don't know why you're just turning us away. We're grade-A friends.

You are good friends. Yeah, I, I, I'll admit that I was doing a little bit of an attitude, but it wasn't correct.

Thank you.

Um, I cherish, cherish you.

Okay, that's too far.

It is too far. As I said it, I realized that I was making myself ill. Um, speaking of friends, we've got a, a fellow in here who's been with me for a long time. who occasionally likes to shout into the microphone on this podcast, and his name is Aaron Blair. We call him Blay. Blay, there's some exciting stuff happening, not just in your world, but in Eduardo's world as well.

Yeah, that's right. Thanks for— wow, that's such a nice tee-up. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, I thought it was pretty good too.

It was good.

But now you've talked about the tee-up, so it's less good.

Well, I'm just not used to feeling— I'm just not— thank you for the love.

I'll put the knife in later.

Okay.

Trust me.

No, I am happy to announce that Eduardo and I have a show called Blaze Arcade. And we've been doing it for, I think, like a year and a half on the radio.

That long?

Wow.

Yeah. Uh, on your channel, Conan, uh, Channel 104, SiriusXM.

This is all the first you've heard of this?

This is the first Conan's heard of it.

Wait, I'm on SiriusXM? What is this? What is this? Uh, go ahead. No, I'm very well aware of all of this. But yes, I know we love to portray me as out of touch. Go ahead. What's your name again? Uh, yeah, no, uh, and we've been doing it under the radar.

Uh, you know, uh, the Eye of Sauron, your are Sauron, and we've been doing, we've been managing to do this show for a while without you knowing about it. Uh, and now we're telling you about it. Uh, and it's called Blaze Arcade. It's once a week. It's live on your channel, Channel 104, at 10 AM Pacific, 1 PM Eastern. Uh, and we take calls. We talk about movies. We talk about shows. We talk about video games. We've talked about books. Uh, and—

Wait a minute. You've talked about books?

Yeah. I'm a voracious reader. You know that?

Yeah.

Voracious.

Okay. The Minecraft Story.

It's a great book.

By C. Everett Nerdly.

Yeah, it's good. It's a good book. It's a great book.

C. Everett.

It's very good.

How do you like how the knife went in finally? You thanked me so much for the tee-up.

It's okay.

I'm more comfortable with a knife in my ribs these days. But it's myself, Eduardo, and our producer, Andrew Groose, who you love.

Groose is on the loose.

That's right.

I love that guy.

That's right.

That guy is one of— I also— Andrew Groose is a very, very physically imposing fellow.

He's huge.

He's really nice.

He does great work for us.

He is like a foot taller than I am.

Yeah.

And I've wanted him to write a children's book called A Groose on the Loose.

And it's about how to—

That's funny.

I see him every morning because our daughters go to the same school.

Yeah.

And there is a Groose on the loose on the campus.

Yeah.

I saw him once at the park, and I thought, oh, the Groose is on the loose.

No, you know what?

Half the time Andrew Groose takes a walk in the park, he's mistakenly anesthetized and then taken back to the woods. He's always waking up in the woods, and he's like, oh, goddamn it. Pulls a dart out of his ass.

This is not fair to you, Groose.

Groose, we love you. You're an incredible guy, but please write that children's book, A Groose on the Loose. And then people find out, you know, they're— at first, kids are scared of you, but then they realize that even though you're, you know, a big and imposing guy, it turns out that you're really sweet and you're very good in your work with SiriusXM.

Yeah.

That's the end of the children's book.

That's so specific. That's the end of the children's book?

Yes.

Yeah.

And they get really intrigued with, you know, dynamic audio insertion and all that.

We might need to work that.

It'd make millions. I think it'd make millions.

So, uh, and Eduardo, um, does Blay let you speak or does he talk over you? He does, actually. Okay, good, good. And that wasn't an accusation.

You were about to grab the mic from him.

Well, I just wanted to— we're co-hosts. We are co-hosts.

Why is it called Blay's Arcade?

Because it rhymes. If you're modest.

If you're not— Blay's Arcade doesn't say Eduardo anywhere. Exactly. Explain that.

Yeah.

Eduardo's Arcade just doesn't sound as good.

Oh, yeah.

Oh!

That's awesome. Yeah, it'd be cool for him if it were that.

Yeah.

What if you called yourself Blaywardo? Oh, I love this.

What about Groose?

I love this.

Yeah, where's Groose in all this?

Groose is also— it's the 3 of us. We're co-hosts.

How about Blaywardo and there's a Groose on the loose? Yeah, I think so. That just rolls off the tongue. I think it's great.

Groose's Caboose.

Yeah, Groose's the Caboose. To be fair, this show is called Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend, not Sona, Matt, and Conan. Yeah, we're in discussion.

We know where our friend is. We're in negotiations.

I hate to bring it up, but we did do— I didn't tell you guys this. We did do an episode early on that was called Conan O'Brien, Sonam Sethi, and Matt Groening Need a Friend. Plummeted. Plummeted like a stone.

Yeah.

We brought your stock down a lot.

Well, they realized that you and I don't need friends.

Yeah, that's what it is. Yeah, we're good.

Yeah. There's a reason you guys eat alone. You don't need anyone else.

Well, we're friends with each other.

Oh, there you go.

That's right.

But no, you can be imposing, Blay. And you do have a habit physically of grabbing the mic and pulling it towards you.

I'm sorry.

No, no, don't apologize for being who you are, which is a terrible person.

Thank you.

I like to think of you guys doing the podcast like this.

We should.

We should. That would be fun. But it is super fun. And this—

Why are you shouting?

I'm sorry. As we're rerecording this episode—

When someone yells at you, it's super fun. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Why am I talking about this? Why? There's no point to plugging the show. Uh, but Sona was on our last episode. She called in.

How'd you get her?

I will say one thing. You—

I can guarantee you, we even got Sona Masesin. Oh yeah, she's sitting right next to you. Wow, we really bagged a good one.

They texted me and they were like— Blake texted me about—

While you were sitting in that chair, he texted you. I'm doing a podcast 3 inches from you.

And I called in. I was like, yeah, I want to talk. I really don't have anything else.

Gruce, what happened was, uh, uh, many of our episodes we talk— we rank our favorite episodes or, uh, installments of a thing. So last episode we talked about our favorite apocalypse movies, our top 3 apocalypse movies, right? And Eduardo, do you want to explain what yours was?

I mentioned WALL-E was a top 3, uh, that's all. What about 28 Days Later, 28 Weeks Later, 28 Months Later, 28 Years Later? But Gruce, Gruce, who we've been, you know, Referencing here, he— well, Gruss is a sign of the apocalypse. Jesus Christ.

He is.

I'm sorry. We're not even here to defend this guy. But when there's a Gruss on the loose, you know that it's time to put those baked beans in the basement. Can I say again how much I love this guy? I love this guy.

It's too late.

It's not too late.

It's too late.

Oh, so it's insulting that I said he's a monster on the loose?

Yes.

And that he's anesthetized by park rangers? And then a helicopter flies him into the deepest parts of Yellowstone and drops him where he wakes up later on and his ankle's tagged. That's not an insult. That's me having empathy for his plight. His kids are always like, where did Daddy go? Helicopter took him away.

Oh my God.

I will be arrested and I will pay for my crimes. We all know that.

That's coming.

Yeah.

Anyhow, Gruce was not a fan of WALL-E and started shitting on the movie. What?

He never— he's never seen it.

He's never seen WALL-E.

He's never seen it. And then he had this insane argument that you can't take it seriously because it was drawn like it's an animated movie. And I was so angry and so upset.

Can I just, in his defense, that's the tranquilizer talking. When you wake up from those things and you're face down in some moss, Deep— we're talking about deep Yellowstone. You're grumpy. And then someone asks you about Wally, and you're like, that's not in the fucking movie! It's not his fault.

Oh my God.

We gotta get him in here to defend himself.

I know. He really needs to be here to defend himself.

Well, you know, he's got— I think he's 5 hours from here now. It takes a while.

What, at the Sequoias, you mean?

Yeah. He's gotta make his way to a highway and then head south.

Oh my God.

I am a terrible person.

Yeah.

You're awful. I do love you.

You are awful.

And I don't know what's wrong with me.

Basically are like the Celtic version of that.

You are. Yes.

No, not at all.

Not at all.

Oh, okay. Listen, please. Incredible sex symbol.

Wow.

Um, all right, well, let's wrap this up. Uh, we have—

So all episodes of Blaze Arcade are available on Team Coco's YouTube channel. A new episode comes out every Friday.

Right.

Uh, and you recently—

yeah.

Great guests like Sona.

Gorli's going to be on to talk best espionage movies. Right.

Ooh.

Wally.

Yeah. All guests are booked within 300 feet.

By the way, Shalemy is on this episode. Yeah, Shalemy and I are on the same episode.

Great.

Keeping it in-house, huh?

Yes.

We'll even get you a limo. I'm in the building. Oh, then forget the limo. All right, well, congrats, guys, on the show.

Yeah.

And, um, proud of you. Proud of you fellas. Very industrious. Sorry, Groots. Uh, I'll pay for what I did. My guest today is a talented actor you know from such shows as Twin Peaks and Fallout. He now has a new book titled Fictional Selves: A Memoir, and he also has a podcast called What Are We Even Doing? That's a good title.

It is.

Because it sort of sums up all of us. I'm thrilled he stopped by today. I'm a huge fan of this gentleman. He's a good man. Kyle MacLachlan, welcome. The year is, I think, 1989. I am a writer on Saturday Night Live. Still very new. I think I started in '88. Twin Peaks is the biggest thing that's ever happened on television. It's massive. And we get the word that Kyle MacLachlan's coming to host the show. And I am so excited. And I remember it was very early in the week. And Jim Downey, the genius head writer at the show, for some reason, I pass him in the hall, and he goes, hey, Conan, want to get lunch with Kyle MacLachlan and I? And I felt like a Make-A-Wish kid.

I was like, what?

And he said, we're just going to grab lunch. And I went, oh, sure, Jim.

And so—

He didn't think you were dying.

Yeah.

No, his voice was still changing.

And so, the next thing I know, I remember this really Very young. We're in Rockefeller Center. We walk to a Thai place that's in Midtown, a few blocks west. It's you, me, and Jim Downey. You could not have been nicer, and I was in heaven. And it was a great experience for me. And then cut to later in the week, there's a big Twin Peaks sketch.

Oh my God, that was great.

And this was crazy. Again, they needed a guy to— I think I walk in, and I'm holding Chris Farley, who was still new at the show.

Well, you were Deputy Andy.

Yeah. But I didn't really have a line.

You didn't have a line, but we all knew.

We all knew I was Dippy Dandy. Anyway, that is a memory that is very important to me. And you were the loveliest guy. And this was when, if you were ever going to be a dick, it was at that moment. You were so nice. And I think about that all the time.

Oh, thank you very— That was a memorable time. Every day, there was a— You know, it's the week long before you're launched on Saturday. And I remember so many things about it. I remember the first table read. I remember going through all the scripts, reading the material, and all the options that were available. And they said, well, this happens because it was September. It was the first show of the 15th season. And they said, everyone's been working over the summer. So we had a stack like this. He said, by the end of the season, you've got a stack like this. So I was very happy. And that sketch was— I think it was just brilliant. I don't know who— was it Jim, the head writer, or was it—

Well, Jim was fascinated with the show, so I'm sure Jim had a lot to do with it.

I'm sure he contributed a lot. But it was a great sketch, I thought.

And you were fantastic.

were holding on to Chris Farley. No, I remember you came to Chris Farley.

The way I held on to Chris Farley is fantastic.

Because Chris was like, hey, man. And you were like—

I kept pulling him back.

Yeah.

No, no, no. I think a lot of people saw me holding on to Chris Farley in the background of a sketch, and they thought, that guy should host late night. Yes. 100%. But there's so much to talk about because your book, Fictional Cells, is terrific.

Thank you.

I love your book. And first of all, I'm going to start by blowing the lid off a great scandal here when people promote books. This is the book that I was given to read, which is your book. It's in this kind of not published yet, or not available yet—

Gallies.

—to buy.

Gallies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this is the book. Publishers think, well, that doesn't going to look— that's not going to look good on a podcast.

Right.

So what they do is they come up with this.

Yes.

The only thing is, this is a great cover. It looks like a real book. It's fantastic. But unfortunately, this is not your book. This is— what is it? Letters from the Edge: Stories of Curiosity, Bravery, and Discovery by Jeff Wilser.

It's Postcards from the Edge.

Oh, Postcards from the Edge.

Yeah, that's— you think of Postcards from the Edge.

That's what you were thinking about?

Yeah.

But I mean, I'm sorry.

Shirley MacLaine? No, who is it?

I don't even remember.

This says so much about the publishing business now. This scam. Letters from the Edge.

I know.

I know. So I'm going to make you talk about— that's the book I read.

Yeah.

It's about explorations. And we're going to talk about that.

Deep sea diving.

I don't know. It's so funny because First of all, Blay, you'll admit you ran upstairs to tell me that Kyle's here.

Yes.

And you said, Kyle's here, and he's very— he looks very dapper. And I was— I got mad, and I said, of course he does! He's Kyle MacLachlan! Yes!

He's a vision.

He's gorgeous.

He's like disrespected. Yeah, no, no. I mean, what are you talking about? Of course he's not a hobo who stumbled in here. He's Kyle MacLachlan.

I didn't— and I— that is your perspective. I was just saying how much I appreciate how great you look. He's putting all this attitude on top of it that I expected you to not look great. You always look great.

Well, please.

Bless your heart.

Never defend yourself.

It takes time. I mean, I'm coming to Conan's show. I mean, you gotta— this is a big deal. This is kicking off the tour, as it were, about the book.

We are the end of many book tours and the beginning of some. You talk about a lot of things, and you call it fictional selves. And the first thing I'm going to talk about is something that I can relate to. It's called fictional selves because you think of yourself as 2 people. One is the confident actor guy who appears on talk shows, maybe podcasts, and he's Kyle MacLachlan. And then the other guy is the shy late bloomer from Yakima, Washington.

The real guy.

Who am I talking to today? Yes.

I mean, this is a whole thing we could talk about because I think part of the— Part of the reason for doing this in the first place was to bring those two together. And I think that's been happening. So, they are growing together, finally, at 67. And I'm really happy about it, finally, because I feel a little more confident, comfortable, and relaxed. So, it's an amalgam now.

Yeah.

But I do love going back and revisiting what I call other Kyle. when he pops up because he's, as you said, confident, brash, why not? Of course you can play Jim Morrison in The Doors. And I'm like, there's not a fucking chance that's going to happen.

Yeah, yeah.

But the dialogue between the two of them, which is something that— and obviously, I worked with someone on this, ghostwriter, great guy. And we talked about this in the very beginning, saying this would be a really interesting way to kind of reveal all of those insecurities because they're all over the book. I mean, it's everything.

What I love is throughout the book, dotted throughout the book, and you have such great stories about your career and all these things that we're going to get into, there's a dialogue between you and this other guy, and they are distinct because the other guy is ambitious, confident, and he's always saying, let's go. And you're always saying, well, I'm not really sure. Come on, let's go. Come on, get your ass in gear. And here's what I can relate to, because I do this all the time, and I've been doing it for years. I'll say something my wife won't like, and she'll be like, what? And I'll say, just ignore him. And she'll say, who? And I'll say, Conan. He's just being a bit of a dick right now. And she'll say, you're him. And I'll go, he's just trying to get— And I've been doing that, which is diabolical. And I'm thinking, that's so— this duality is really a lot of us.

I completely agree. I think everyone, if they sit back and really look at themselves, And part of this is really— therapy is too strong a word, but it's really a lot of— you're thinking back and kind of looking over your career and examining choices, good and bad, and why you made them. And I think it's just very revealing. And I think those 2 people, the brash, confident person that sort of believes you can do anything, is really essential.

Yes.

Because otherwise, you wouldn't step outside your house.

You'd just stay on the couch.

You'd just stay on the couch all day and eat potato chips. But it's the sensitive, creative, other person that sort of figures out how to navigate that, that I think is really— that's what we really approach in the book more so. It's me trying to navigate situations, and I go through a couple of different situations with directors, particular directors that were challenging, to say the least.

Well, the other thing I just wanted to— as your therapist—

Thank you.

And acting as my therapist now, what I noticed— You better look for a new therapist. Yeah, it's happening. We can do it.

All of us.

close together.

What I noticed is that the other voice is punitive. The other voice, the Kyle MacLachlan who's brash and has got an edge.

He's mean. He's demanding. Pretty mean, yeah.

Fascinating.

He takes no prisoners. You know what I mean? He really, in some of the stories, particularly, I think, some of the Sex and the City stuff, because the role was obviously chock-full of all sorts difficulties, let's just say. Trey McDougall. That as an actor, you sort of say, okay, I'm really doing this. And the other guy's saying, you're fucked. He knows. So I'm just like, all right. And playing those two off each other was interesting because it really is about how honest with yourself are you? Who are you? And that was an interesting exploration. And I feel like you understand that, it sounds like.

Well, I definitely agree with you that it helps to get I agree with you.

So I'm 67, and I think a part of the initiative to do this was suddenly you're like, there's a little— peace isn't exactly the right word, but maybe like, oh, I kind of get the dynamic, who I am. As much as I did not want to be that for a long time, I'm like, so I am. And part of that has actually been helped by the podcast that I do, where I've been kind of letting the silliness out because I'm basically a silly person.

Your podcast is What Are We Even Doing? Which is a great— Thank you.

It's been— and I had no idea going into it. It was sort of the same thing. I was like, I don't know if I have anything to offer. I don't know what's going to happen. All the insecurities are coming out. And then I just said, I'm just going to jump in and have a conversation. And from that, I was like, oh, this is actually working. And I'm genuinely curious about what younger creatives are doing, between actors, musicians, podcasters, anybody. And that's been really fun. and really fulfilling. And I think out of that has come this little more acceptance somehow. It's like, all right, I'm just gonna tell it like it is. I mean, the whole point of a memoir is, you know, you're not gonna gloss. I mean, you know, there's things you choose not to tell, obviously. And I'm pretty good at— I don't really call anybody out. Well, I call a couple of people out sometimes.

Yeah.

But in terms of relationships, people, I'm just— I'm not there to sort of tell-all, you know, gotcha type of thing. It's just like, it's more how it impacted me.

Really?

And kind of my process.

So, well, I want to take us through, um, because you've had this incredible career. A lot of people don't know this. You are a stage actor, and you're really interested in just being a stage actor when you get this out-of-the-blue call They're making the movie Dune. This is the first go-around with Dune, long before the current Dune movies. And you really have no chance. You're an unknown. You read for the role of Paul Atreides, and suddenly, you are meeting with Dino De Laurentiis and David Lynch, and then you have the role.

And it was suddenly.

It was very suddenly. And what gets crazier is then you're making the movie, and this is going to be a— intended to be a massive blockbuster like Star Wars, where— and you all sign contracts. This is the first one, but you're going to be doing at least 3, and this is going to be your career for the next decade. You don't know anything because you're new to it all.

Yeah.

And so, you're like, okay, this is what's happening now. And then you— I love how you describe it. You go off, you make the movie. It's a fascinating experience making the movie. And then you go off, and then the movie comes out, but you're not really part of that. You're kind of unaware.

Yeah.

And you're unaware of what's going on.

Yeah.

And then you're given the news.

Yeah.

Who gives you the news? I can't remember. How did you find out finally that this movie did not go well?

Did not go well. I was sitting in my dad's office in Yakima, Washington. Stockbroker, he was there, and I was sitting with him at the corner office, and I got a call from my manager at the time. And he just says it— kind of in the book, he says the same thing. He says, it's not looking good. I'm worried. I'm like, what do you mean? So, to go back and to understand why I was so out of the loop, contractually, I was not allowed to work in film or television until the movie was released.

What?

So, I shot the thing '83. Yeah, we wrapped, like, September, October of 1983. Movie comes out winter of '84. So, I've got a year and some change to do something. You can't do anything. I can't do anything. So, I went to New York. I auditioned for— I think I talked about it. I auditioned for— was it Chicago, maybe? Or Ferris Bueller's Day Off? What was it? Biloxi Blues, maybe? Something. And I'm like, well, and I went back to Seattle and I did a play in Tacoma, and just, I don't know, trying to keep busy really. And then finally the movie comes out and the expectation is, okay, we're going to do this and then we're going to start right away. And I could kind of tell at the premiere, we had the premiere at the Kennedy Center in DC and people watched it and I watched it and I said, boy, it's kind of hard to follow. I mean, I know the book really, really well. And I was like, okay. But it was kind of cool. What I loved about it was watching everybody else, all my friends. So, it was fun to see Patrick and Everett McGill and—

Patrick Stewart.

Patrick Stewart, yes. And do this, and Dean Stockwell. But it was like, okay, it's kind of all right. And then they had the premiere in London. So, we went to the premiere in London, and that was Sting and the gang and everybody. The after-party was very— We were at Blondes in Mayfair, Georgie Best's club, Blondes, named after his preferred person, female person. Anyway, anyway, yeah, yeah, whatever. Yeah, uh, but it was kind of—

my club was called Willing. Popular.

Um, the, uh, but it was kind of like a wake.

She said yes! But, uh, so you go there and you can tell the vibe is—

You can tell the vibe. It's not great.

You know what's interesting? I'll tell you my personal experience is Dune, and everyone's, you know, It's going to be huge. I'm interested to go. I go with, I think, my brother Luke. We went to the Hearthstone Plaza, which I— whenever I go back to Brookline, it's on Route 9.

That's amazing.

You remember that?

And it's not a theater anymore. But we went to the Hearthstone Plaza, and I go in to see Dune. And I'm, you know, one ticket for Dune, please. Or, you know, here you go, sir. And they went, and this is for you. And they handed me, like, a little booklet. And I said, what's this? And I start flipping through it. It's, this is what you need to read to understand the movie you're gonna— and it starts to say, like, well, there's a spice, and everyone's fighting over the spice, and there's this guy, but remember, there's 2 families. And I thought, I'm being given homework before I see a movie. This is not a good sign.

Yeah, bad sign.

Bad sign. But I had never— I've never experienced— I mean, there have been times where I've wished I had a booklet for a movie, but—

Somebody's idea at Universal was, let's give them a glossary so they can follow along. In a dark movie theater. Wait, I'm trying to read.

Yo, I didn't even know how I was supposed to be looking at your face.

I think this is the Baron. I don't know.

What's he doing? Wait. And he's the— okay, I see the family line. I think I figured it out. So, um, not a good sign. Well, there was some of that in the later Star Wars movies. We talked about this where they really got into the bureaucracy of— and I thought, this is not what people watch Star Wars for. But it was, you know, and later on, and, you know, when they brought Star Wars back, and it was, you know, like, we don't have enough votes from the council. You know...

Didn't David Lynch turn down Return of the Jedi basically to do Dune? Did you remember that?

Well, I know he turned it down, and he tells a story about going up to meet George Lucas, and he developed a horrible headache.

Just from the meeting?

No, leading up to the meeting. And he got to the point where he actually— I don't think he even went. He may have taken the meeting. I don't remember. But it was like something was just working against him, and he knew this was not what he should be doing.

Wow. So, there's a world where David Lynch would've directed which one?

Return of the Jedi.

The second Return of the Jedi. Yum.

I would've loved to see a Darth Vader walking backwards.

Amazing, right?

The lips of Darth Vader! So, it doesn't work out, and a stunning thing happens. you go through this experience where you think, well, this might be it for me. I was a complete unknown. I'm in a massive, expensive movie. It's not happening. This might not work out. David Lynch does a very unusual thing. He immediately casts you again in Blue Velvet. And I think, what an— I mean, this guy— your story is so much also David Lynch's story because you have this— it's about your relationship.

Yeah.

That's very unusual. He bonded with you in some crucial way and knew, this is my guy.

Yeah. It was an amazing thing for him to do. Unexpected— I mean, I know unexpected maybe is not the word, but we were connected. He had shown me the script to Blue Velvet while we were filming Dune, saying, you know, I want to do this and I'd love for you to do Jeffrey. And I was like, okay, great. I loved the script so much. And the story goes in the book, you know, I showed the script. My mom was going through ovarian cancer, cancer treatments at the time. But I wanted her to be involved because she was a big part of me becoming an actor. And so I said, hey, here's the second script that I've ever read. Dune being the first, Blue Velvet was the second.

What an incredible career. By the way, I can relate to some of this.

And I'm like, okay. So I shared it with her and didn't hear anything. And so I sort of called and spoke to her husband, and he was like, well... And I talk about it in the book. He said, she wasn't really... And I'm like, Yeah, God. For God's sakes, what was I thinking? I mean, the script is very graphic and harrowing, and everything is written. What you see is sort of a softer version of what was really written, you know? So, believe it or not. And I said, I got it. I got it. She's upset. I said, Okay, I'm not going to do it. So, I basically said, David, I can't do it. I explained to him why, and he said, I understand. And I said, I can't do it. I'm so sorry. Which was crazy because I had no other prospects. But I was like, Well, okay, we'll figure it out.

But I get that. I don't want to upset my mom.

Yeah.

It's a pretty strong—

Yeah. I was 25, I guess, and she was in this very vulnerable time. And as I said, she was kind of the one that kept doing this to me when I'd be like, oh, I don't know if I want to do this acting thing or these kids.

She'd push you a little bit. Nudge.

A little nudge here and there. And then I didn't need it any longer. I was like, okay. And then something she, I think, deep down had always wanted to maybe pursue to do something in the arts like that. She loved being on stage. She was an okay actress. I watched a couple of her things. Sorry, Mom. But, um, you know, but she loved it. She loved it. You know.

Lightning bolt just hit our podcast studio.

Yeah. Yeah. The night outside.

That's all right.

We're good.

Anyway. But you, you make a point that Dune was, you know, was not a success.

Yeah.

and you're in this precarious position, and you now see that it was one of the greatest things that could have happened to you. It led to all these fascinating projects, chiefly Twin Peaks. And to get back to Twin Peaks, I think David Lynch showed you that script when I think it was called Lumbertown or something?

Northwest Passage.

Northwest Passage. And I think the town was called Lumbertown or something.

There was a— Lumberden. Yeah, Lumberden.

Lumberden.

Which was— a reference to—

Which is so specific.

Yeah, yeah. But Blue Velvet had a Lumberton too.

That's right. That's right. Okay.

So, yeah. So, you can see it's planted in my head.

How did you end up back in Blue Velvet after saying no?

Well, I— honestly, so it just— time went on, and I couldn't get the script out of my head, I said. And it was like nothing else is really happening. And I really understood the story of that young man's journey where he would be drawn to these 2 different women, and then the light and the dark, and trying to rationalize the two. And I just— I finally said to my mom, I said, Mom, I know I have to do this, and it's going to be okay because it's David. I know it's going to be great. So I just want you to know I've got to go forward with it. Do I have your blessing? And she said, yes, of course. Of course. So off we went, and we made Blue Velvet in Wilmington, North Carolina.

Mm-hmm.

And it was the antithesis of the Dune experience. Dune was huge. 8 massive soundstages in Churubusco Studios in Mexico City. We were a little, tiny, forgotten eddy somewhere in a little stream somewhere in the middle of the South. Nobody bothering us. And David was able to bring in something that was just extraordinary. And there we were.

Here's what I remember, 'cause I want to set the table for Twin Peaks. Because I think people have so many choices now with streaming, and the line between cinema and television has really blurred.

Yeah.

We live now in an era where there can be high, high art on your television screen. And so, I'm trying to make it clear that in 1989, television was one thing, and going to the movie theaters was another thing. And then suddenly, I think it was a mid-season, It was Twin Seasons' midseason replacement, which usually meant not going to be the greatest show. We also had this idea, but it wasn't good enough to go on in the fall, so it's—

We'll throw these 7 episodes up and see what happens.

See what happens. And so, I remembered I was living in New York, and I'm living up on 96th Street with my girlfriend at the time, and this show is going to come on, and we'd heard a little bit about it, and we watched it. It had a tone that was completely unique. And keep in mind, this is with commercials. So, you had this— but even with commercials, you were suddenly in this world. And when the episode was over, the first episode was over, we— I mean, I felt like I'd been hit over the head with lumber. And that wasn't my— that was everybody's reaction. That you guys created something that, I think, foretold what TV was going to be at its very best 25 years later.

Before it happened.

You know what I mean? It was like you got in a time machine.

I agree.

Someone had a really great idea, Netflix or HBO idea right now, and really went for it, and then got in a time machine and went back to 1989. And the performances and the whole thing, and people lost their minds. I was one of them.

I mean, it was really David. David approached television and didn't— it wasn't television. It was another way, another canvas to work on. And he understood cinema and that language. So, So, it was never about making— oh, we're making a TV show. It was about, we're making Twin Peaks, and this is what it is, and then we're gonna stick it on your television set. And it was— yeah, it was mind-blowing. And that pilot episode, that first episode, is one of my— one of the things I'm most proud of in my career. Just my performance there, creating Cooper, bringing him into that world. I was really— I said, that was a good job. I don't say that about a lot of things, but for that one, I was like, no, that really—

When I see anything I've done, I think, you nailed it. Killed it. Anything.

That's other Conan. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

There's also a third Conan.

Okay.

Well, it might be 7 total, but, um—

He's delusional.

Yeah, he's— well, they're all delusional.

We have to be delusional to be in this business a little bit.

We really do.

Honest to God.

You need some of that. Um, your approach to Cooper, getting his voice right, you know, And you're using some of David Lynch.

I'm using some of David. I'm borrowing David.

And David— one of David's things is the thumbs up. David would give— and I remember the first time on Twin Peaks when you just give a thumbs up, I was like, what the hell? What is this, like a little kid does? And you said you just outright took that from David Lynch.

Oh, yeah. Lifted it right from him. And his voice, his way of speaking was kind of— you know, he's a little more like this. He's from Montana, but his voice has got kind of a twang to it.

Yeah.

And, uh— And there's a lot of enthusiasm when David speaks.

Coop!

It's like this whole thing. And I thought so many things about it were just— his casting, David's casting, I think, is extraordinary. And putting me with Michael Onkeen, the Sheriff Truman, together, because we're just completely the opposite energy, was, again, sort of brilliant.

There's, I think, I remember in the script, I mentioned Jim Downey was a huge fan, and I'm blanking.

Jim Downey nearly gave me a heart attack because it's the whole thing about going back to SNL. They don't give you the monologue until—

Oh, no, no, no. This is a thing.

Not the day before.

Minutes before you walk on stage. Yeah. I should probably—

Can we talk about Jim for just a second?

That's not just Jim. That was a regular—

Was that a Lorne thing or was it just—

No, no, no.

It was just institutionalized.

It was Okay.

I don't feel so bad. It wasn't me.

No one— in my day, no one was assigned to do the monologue. And so you didn't really get much— you didn't get any credit for coming up with the monologue. And everyone is so desperate to get their sketch on that that's all anyone's focused on. And so we all learned to say, oh, yeah, no, no, we're working on it. It's coming.

It's coming.

And we would do that up until the morning of the show, And of course, the host is, well, I'm usually an actor. I'm, you know, comic, I can play anything. It's like, okay, this is good. I'll play this part. I'll play that part. But the most terrifying part to most hosts is when you have to walk out as yourself and say, well, it's sure a thrill to be hosting Saturday Night Live. Cue applause. Okay, well, anyway, what? What are you gonna say? And that was the most terrifying thing. And we would just lie and say it's all being worked on when it was never being worked on.

Oh, God.

And then Lorne would usually call 2 of us in. Sometimes it would be 3. my— I remember on several occasions it was me and Bob Odenkirk, you know, get those 2 young idiots in here. And Bob and I would go in and be like, just go figure out a fucking monologue and get it down to, you know, George Steinbrenner of the Yankees. And we'd go down and we would have like a really thin idea and go, oh, Mr. Steinbrenner— Get the fuck out of my house! That sucks!

Get out of here!

Yeah, I remember he has a big World Series ring. Get the fuck out of here!

Oh, okay.

And we both run away. Someday we'll be famous, and we won't have to put up with this.

But—

That sums it up pretty well.

Yeah, yeah.

So, that was that experience. But I think the thing that was so unusual— I mean, there's so many things that were fantastic about Twin Peaks, but— and when it first came out was I remembered the attention to detail and how suddenly everyone in the country was obsessed with coffee, pie. Like, your character orders some pie and just really likes the pie. And this doesn't drive the plot in any way.

No.

But I remembered watching that show and thinking, I bet that— I don't even like pie. I was like, that pie and that coffee, that looks amazing.

Fooled you.

Yeah, exactly. But there were so many elements of that show, it became a whole obsession. And then you talk in the book about something that you thought was the death knell for the show, which is— ABC over the summer, because the murder is— the mystery is who killed Laura Palmer.

Sure.

And that was on buses everywhere, who killed Laura Palmer? And you've got to tune in to see who killed Laura Palmer. And David Lynch didn't think that was necessarily the most important thing. In fact, this killing is a way into this whole strange world. But the network was pushing and pushing and pushing, that who killed Laura Palmer was the reason to watch. And you think, in a way, they killed the golden goose.

Yeah, I definitely think that. And it's like the scorpion and the turtle, whatever it is. It's their nature. It's their nature. They want prizes.

That's right.

A scorpion is riding on the back of a turtle to get him across the river, and then he stings the animal, and the animal says, why'd you sting me? Now we're both going to drown. And the scorpion says, it's my nature. I stink. And that's what they did.

Yeah. And so, you can't really blame them. I mean, that's how they're going to operate. But once you remove that— 'cause it was a really powerful theme, just trying to solve that. And instead of sort of soft-pedaling that and sort of focusing on just this crazy community of people and what was going to happen there, that became the entire focus. And they finally, I think in episode 9 of 10, I don't remember.

Of the second season?

Of the second season.

Yeah.

And it's very strange because we did the mid-season replacement. So we shot all the episodes, all done in the can, and then waited. And then they finally put them on. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. So we weren't filming during that process. We were just kind of watching this thing go, oh my God. You know, it's like a tidal wave coming. We started right back up again, like a few months after that, in the fall, to start filming for the second season of 22 or 23, however many we did. It was kind of interesting. Everything was like, uh, what's happening? You know, neither Mark nor David were really interested in babysitting a show, showrunning Twin Peaks. They have other things they're going to do. David's going to go off and direct a film. Mark wants to direct a film. So they kind of like— they sort of pawn it off on, well, we got some writers here, good writers, you know, but there's only one David Lynch.

Yeah.

And David Lynch is thinking, you want more of these? Which is everyone's dream. And you believe that he didn't really know who killed Laura Palmer until it was his job to figure that out. Yeah.

Who it should be. He never wanted to pin it on anybody. Yeah.

I remember watching at some point and thinking, I still love the show. I don't think they know who killed Laura Palmer. And the writers are just gonna come up with, like, an owl that can transform into a Native American killer who can transform into an old lady. You know, whatever.

It would've been fantastic. But in some ways, the sketch that we did on SNL, sort of, of— I mean, that was foreshadowing.

Yes, it was. Yeah. I mean, the sketch was all about, it's very clear who killed Laura Palmer, and you don't want to know.

And I don't— I said, I don't know. Leo, Leo, who you were wrestling with, pulls out all the photos. Remember, he said, here's— here I am, here's me killing her, here's dying her, she's dying, here she's dead. Yeah, yeah.

I'm like, let's get some—

we'll take that under consideration.

How did you deal personally with overnight becoming one of the more fam— one of the most famous faces in America? How did you, Kyle MacLachlan, deal with, oh my God, there's Agent Cooper, when Agent Cooper is the guy to be?

Yeah.

Did you like that? Did it frighten you?

I was, again, kind of oblivious to the whole thing. It was happening— remember, this is pre-social, pre-anything. So, the only way that you knew that you were— had an impact was, uh, For instance, the girls were on the COVID of Rolling Stone, right?

Right.

So that was pretty cool.

Right.

David was on the COVID of Time. So these are the indicators to say, oh, and also the numbers for the show were pretty significant.

Oh, like 40 million people were watching an episode?

Yeah, which was crazy. But we're all just kind of driving out to Van Nuys, getting in the hair and makeup trailer, doing our thing. Yeah, doing your thing. And hosting SNL was a big indicator too. But I looked at SNL as kind of like an extension of my acting training. It was like, oh, we get to go in and we get to do this thing. We're writing stuff. We're going to make it, and it's going to be fantastic. It's going to be like summer stock, right? An abbreviated summer stock. So, my focus was all on that, not necessarily on kind of what was happening in the world. And I also talk about the fact that, again, you mentioned it earlier, TV at that time was not— you weren't necessarily lifting actors out of television and placing them in movies necessarily.

Yeah.

Yeah. were able to do that. So, that really wasn't even part of it. It was a ride. We were working. And the fact that Cooper was, you know, he's eccentric and not— you're like saying, oh, well, we need that guy in our show. You know what I mean? Because he's going to be great. You know, it's like he existed in a weird, I don't know, kind of time warp or something.

Yeah.

You know? And I was— so, I was like kind of aware of that. But it was very weird that the Dune thing— it's crazy because you have Dune, disaster. Blue Velvet, wow, interesting, independent, very independent film. Not liked by everyone, but certainly appreciated.

But critics saw a lot of it. Critics loved it. Really loved it.

Then you suddenly had Twin Peaks, which was, we love this show. That was kind of for everybody. So it's this weird kind of sequence of the things that I did with David. I'm not sure where I'm going with this story, but it's just weird that there's those 3 things.

It's a very specific question. which is, there's a moment that I've always wanted to ask you about. I don't know the specifics, but I think Agent Cooper's talking to Michael Ontkean, and you guys are having a back and forth. The conversation's over, and you reach over and touch his nose and go, boop! And I remembered being in front of the television on 96th Street in New York, 5th floor, and seeing you just reach over and go, boop! And then moving on with the scene. And I was like, whoa! What the fuck was that? But is— do you remember that moment?

Yes, I do.

And was that a— was that you? Was that David? What?

Well, it—

I mean, it hit— I think it was nothing I had ever looked at in television before. I don't think I had seen anything like that.

I went over, I just looked. We were talking to Mike, we were sitting next to each other, and I just went— and I think David may have said, because he'd be right there next to the camera, this is pre-monitors. Yeah, he probably can't— he said, he said, Tweak his nose. I'm like, okay. Like that.

And he's like that.

And we just kind of—

and it was kind of— Fantastic.

I mean, we just did it for— and it was like an indicator of just kind of the affection that these 2 guys had for each other. Like, we could be silly a little bit, and then we got to get back down to business. You know what I mean? But it made a really nice moment.

No, but to me, it was spectacular because Agent Cooper's so by the book, but he does like pilots. But then he's also like, that's his idea of, let's get crazy for a second. I remember, I'll credit this again to Jim Downey, but Jim Downey had read an interview with David Lynch, and there's the bad boy character who's—

Oh, Dana Ashbrook. Bobby Briggs.

Bobby Briggs. Bobby Briggs is the first one they suspect. He's this bad boy, and he went out with Laura Palmer, and he's walking around in his leather jacket.

Dana did such a great job.

Oh my God. And so, you guys bring him in for questioning, And this is genius, but this is what I heard, is that David Lynch said to the actor, okay, your girlfriend's dead and they're questioning you and you might be a suspect and that's not good, but also you're getting a lot of attention. So just keep that in mind too. You're getting a lot of attention. That's a good direction. And I thought, Oh my God, what a great direction. And that that's something real people have, which is, I'm in trouble, but also, I'm kind of the focus of attention right now. So, that was a very David Lynchian, I think, direction.

Yeah. I think Dana inhabited that so well because there's a certain cockiness that he's got in that moment. He knows he's innocent, but he's, at the same time, he's kind of, as you said, there's a swagger there that came with that direction that maybe not necessarily wouldn't have been there if he hadn't said that. He would've been more like, more of like, oh my God, the deer in the headlights. And then the interrogation, that scene you're talking about, I remember we did a couple of takes and he was getting, you know, Danny was getting, ah, ah, ah. And as Cooper, I was like, and let me tell you, and I started to match this energy. Cut. And David says, we'd have a minute, and he says, just go a different way with that. You know, just bring it way down.

He goes high, you go low.

Yeah. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna try try that. So we go back in, and he does that. And that's where that kind of little moment where he's going crazy, and I just look at him, and I have this strange little smile that comes on my face, which is David. That's what David would do. And then I turned to Mike O'Keene, and I— so we hold all the cards, right? And that was just it. And again, it was Lynch just planting a little seed, a little perfect little moment there.

The show, huge success, but then, like all things, You solve the murder. The fever breaks. The show goes into a weird— ABC starts moving it into weird time slots, which to this day doesn't quite make sense. You find yourself back— okay, I'm back in it now. I got to go find the next thing. And I didn't know this. This is another thing we have in common. We were both up for the role of Dr. Derek Shepherd on Grey's Anatomy.

Excuse me.

You were up for a role of the Shepherd.

Was that in the Christmas play that they were doing?

called Grey's Astronomy. It's a shepherd who looks at the sky and knows where to take the sheep. No, they said that you didn't have the appropriate smolder factor.

Yeah, well, that may have been me sort of coming in and reading the scene and going, oh, this is going to be like a meet cute and then gets heavy really quickly. You know, that first scene that we read? And I was like, I don't know how to do this. I was just like, you know? And I gave it a college try, but I said, no, I don't think it's going to work. I think I'm just too weak. Patrick Dempsey was great. He smoldered with the best of them.

He's still smoldering. He's still smoldering.

Yeah, that guy.

He's actually—

Inspect if you—

They won't let him near a camera. Smell him.

Somewhere in the building.

Wherever he goes, he sets off smoke alarms. Rolling Stone had a quote about you, which is, the boy next door if the boy spent a lot of time in the basement, which is such a great quote. Yeah. And it is this quality that you have you can inhabit really well. And I think at a certain point, a lot of your life, last 40 years, has been seeing— I think we all think, well, I'm not just this and I need to go do that. And then maybe, again, I'm talking about getting to a certain point in life, but there's this contentment with, well, I do that pretty well and what's wrong with that? As opposed to— I need to prove to people that I'm a ballet dancer. No, you're really not.

Watch me go. It's a mix of that because I I think you're right. I think there's both an acceptance of those qualities and the things that you've done that are different and quirky. And what's happened is I've been around doing this for so long that other opportunities have kind of come, and I've been able to do these sort of different roles. They're always a little bit off. I'm thinking of Hank MacLean, of course, in Fallout right now.

Mm-hmm.

So yeah, he's got got stories and histories and he's complicated, but I'm okay with that. After we talk about the Top Gun story where you're straight ahead, American swagger, let's go, I'm like, I don't really do that. And so I've just, as you said, we've kind of accepted this is what we do. We do it pretty well and we get to do other things within that same kind of arena.

Yeah.

And that's really You know, you keep exploring yourself as an actor, which is pretty cool.

Now, while you were writing this memoir, David Lynch dies.

Yes.

And that just has to be an incredible blow because you have this symbiosis with the man.

Yeah. I remember the moment that I heard, and I couldn't— He was not in the best of health, but we had spoken, like, a week earlier, I think, with Laura Dern, because a lot of times Laura and I would go, we'd pop by, and we'd talk. We'd sit on his back porch and we kind of just talk about stuff and reminisce. And he was always like, now, I've got this idea. I think we can do it. We were always trying to figure out a way to do the next thing. And suddenly that just stopped.

Yeah.

And loss is weird like that because I don't know how to describe it necessarily, but there's an echo. So you hear it and you go, oh my God, he's gone. like, but is he really? You know? And then you're like, no, no, he's, he's, he's gone. I can't, I won't hear that voice again. But then I'm like, yeah, but he's still down at his house, right? He's still puttering around down there. And, and that sort of stayed with me for a while. And I mentioned it wasn't until the house was on the market, there were photographs of the house. They were selling the house, David's house, his compound actually.

Mm-hmm.

And I went through and I was looking at it and going, David's not here. David's not here. And I was Yeah. That's what hit me. Yeah.

And I think someone recently said, it's the end of a conversation. If you really want to know what loss is, the other person isn't there, that other voice. And that hit me. I was like, well, that's exactly what it is.

That's really— yeah, that's well said.

And it's funny because now clearly all these other projects came from Twin Peaks, and you got to be Agent— I mean, I'm constantly watching scenes of all the different projects that have had Agent Cooper in them. And I keep thinking to myself, this doesn't ever have to end, really. I don't think. I think there could be— I know you participated in a Twin Peaks festival.

Is that—

or you just went by?

I went by. I went up and just was kind of around and went to a screening and did all sorts of the There's so many— the fans are so endearing, you know, and they care so much. And I'm like, I gotta go. And again, that's part of the journey, part of my growth, I think. You know, initially, I was like, oh, it's fine. Twin Peaks. Okay. Yeah. You're sort of like, yeah, I did that. And now I'm doing this, and I'm doing this, these other things here, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And gradually, you realize, no, this is actually of great value. You know? And I think with that, with maturity and age and growing up a little bit, you're like, oh, I want to embrace this. that more. You know, I have this too, but I want to embrace that. And with that, embrace the people that it really has affected, you know? And that's part of what that was, going up to North Bend and participating in this weekend of Twin Peaks festivities.

Yeah.

It was really fun.

Did they say, okay, you gotta put some jet black in your hair and have a cup of coffee with me? Eat this pie right now!

Truth be told, I'm not a huge cherry pie fan, but—

What?

I know, I know. It's sacrilege.

Yeah, it's like Groucho Marx saying, I don't really smoke cigars. Well, this is a delight for me, and we've just scratched the surface. There's so much else we could talk about, but I do encourage people— the book is really spectacular, and you've done a brilliant job with this.

Thank you, Conan.

Fictional Selves is the book by Kyle MacLachlan, and your podcast, What Are We Even Doing? is a joy as well. And I'm just It all worked out because I met you in 1989 and I thought, God, he seems like a really nice, cool guy. And then here we are all these years and lifetimes later of all these different things happening. And you're that guy. And it's just nice. They say, don't meet your heroes. And it's like, no, no, no, meet your heroes. There's a couple you shouldn't meet, but you're one of the really good ones. So thanks so much for being here.

Really great. Conan, thank you. That's very sweet. You carry your heart in a really beautiful way with all the other stuff going on. But you're brilliant. You're brilliant. But deep inside here, that's the real—

That's the other guy. That's not me.

That's the other guy.

We've recently dipped back into the refreshing waters of voiceover.

You know what? It's a new technology. I'm excited about it. This is people calling into us, and then we're somehow able to record it and then keep the recording.

Oh, now I understand it. I've never had it explained to me.

Yeah, and then we can play it back, and it's as if they're asking us in real time.

All right, Eduardo, hit it.

Hey guys, this is Zach in Fargo, North Dakota, and I have a question for you. Where do you think this world is going?

Ooh.

That's it.

It just ends there.

That's it?

Oh, my God. This is a real existential— Can I just say, this sounds very much like he's in North Dakota. Because when you spend a lot of time in Fargo, I'm sure sometimes you look around and just think, where is this all going? I'm worried about Zack. Zack, I hope you're okay.

And we don't have to take this into a dark place. It could just mean whatever you want it to mean. Where is this all going?

You're right.

I don't think he meant it in a dark way at all.

Maybe it's just going around the sun.

I think we need to do a welfare check on Zach, make sure he's okay.

I wanted to hear more of his Fargo accent.

Oh, yeah?

Just me?

Nobody else?

Hey, wait!

This is my deal here, Wade.

Yeah. Hey, that's good.

Yeah.

I mean, I just am going off of Fargo, the movie.

Right.

That's all of us. We just do that.

Okay.

One of my favorite movies. Me too. Amazing. It's amazing how many of my favorite movies are Coen Brothers movies. It's absolutely kind of incredible. Uh, they might be the best, actually. Yeah.

Too bad they split up. You know, they're not making movies together anymore.

And you can— Did they? I didn't know that.

They don't really do movies together. They kind of do their own thing now. And that's why you're not— maybe you're not talking about them as much, you know?

What the hell? You took my— I love the Coen brothers. And no, I'm not going to have you slam them in any form or fashion.

I'm not slamming them. I'm just saying—

Why'd you take us down this road? None of that. Zac came with this existential question, and you went right to, hey, man, the Coen brothers broke up.

The world is going nowhere because of the Coen brothers. Brothers broke up.

No, they didn't break up. I'm sure they'll get back together again.

I hope so.

They're brothers. Brothers can't break up.

The Gallagher Brothers. Oh, they got back together.

They did? Yeah, we went to their concert.

We did.

I don't know.

I'm stunned. Stunned that you took this voicemail question and went this way with it. Now we're talking about the Oasis reunion. You are— you're just a train wreck. That was a train wreck. What you did.

Was his question, where's the world going? I forgot what his question was already.

Yeah. Well, I don't blame you after this discourse we just had.

That is the most vague question, and you can answer it however you want. I chose the Gallagher brothers. How would you like to do it? How would you like to do it?

I don't know.

I know that the way you did it was wrong. I do know that for a fact. Wrong for you.

Eduardo?

I agree.

Yeah, thank you. It was weird. It was weird. Terrible.

Here's a newsflash. I'm not asking for approval.

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, he's a rebel.

Own it.

Own it. And you know what? It's his fault for being from Fargo.

Right.

How are we not supposed to talk about the Coen brothers?

Exactly.

But I guess Zach is just wondering where it's all going. And I don't know that we can avoid that question. I know you're very much trying to avoid that question.

I don't want to talk about the real sad things anymore.

Why does it have to be sad?

There's good things.

Yeah, there's good things. Let me hear.

I'm all ears.

I'm a 52% optimist. I recognize all of the problems that we have, but as a history buff, I know that we have always had problems. Always. And what I always ask people is, well, why don't you tell me when the good old days were? And if you— if someone names an era, I go, nope. And then you talk about all the bad things.

I can do it.

I can do it.

Go ahead.

First time the Gallagher brothers were together.

Oh, the '90s.

Oh, man.

Were pretty sweet.

Come on.

Don't look back at anything. You're the worst.

Wonderwall.

That's also when the Coen brothers were hitting their stride. Fargo, Big Lebowski. It was the era of the brothers. Stater Brothers was at its prime. Oh, Manny, Moe, and Jack.

Come on. Okay.

I'm an optimist too. I'm with you.

Yeah, slight optimist.

You have to be an optimist if you have kids.

But give us an answer.

Yes.

Yeah.

What's that?

Give us an answer.

Where is it going?

Where is the world going?

What do you mean where it's going? It's going where it's always been going, which is a day at a time, we crawl our way there through the darkness.

We get there.

there. But that's where we're going. And so we must persevere. We will persevere because we must persevere. That is my belief. And we have a lot of problems and we need to address them and figure them out. And that's what we must do. So that's what we will do.

I do wonder if one day—

I've taken a lot of pills.

You have.

Yeah.

You seem very medicated. I do wonder if one day my boys are— one of them is going to be like, Mom, I have a girlfriend. And it's going to be like an AI chatbot.

Oh, certainly.

No, don't say certainly. Certainly.

You can bet Blay has one. You know, like, it certainly is already happening.

Why is it poor Blay?

I'm just kidding, Blay.

He's not even here to defend himself. Blay was doing this long before there was AI.

I—

when I first met Blay, he introduced me to his girlfriend, and it was a Magnavox television shoved onto a mannequin.

No, he has a very lovely girlfriend.

He does have a lovely girl, and he's doing his civic duty and doing jury duty right now.

Yeah, that's why he's not here defending himself. But because he's not here to defend himself, yeah, years ago, first girlfriend, mannequin with the Magnavox TV jammed on its neck.

Magnavox.

Yeah.

I said it was a long time ago. Listen, stay the course, Zach. Better times are coming. And—

And don't look back in anger.

My God.

I love you doubling down on it. Thank you. He's so angry. It's just making him so mad.

I'm just so angry.

I'm slowly walking down the hall faster than a cannonball.

I thought it was faster than the cholesterol-lowering drug Pravachol. Oh, it is.

No, don't do your remix of Wonderwall.

That's what they sang on their reunion tour.

Slowly, slowly down the hall, faster than the cholesterol-lowering drug Pravachol.

I like the Jake Gyllenhaal version better.

I know. I used to work— faster than Jake Gyllenhaal. No one can fuck up a great song like that.

You are the best at it.

I love putting my own stupid rhymes in there.

You do.

And that's where the world is going.

And that is where the world is going. Hang in there, Zach. I will if you will. Be strong.

Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend with Conan O'Brien, Sonam Avsesian, and Matt Gourley. Produced by me, Matt Gourley. Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Nick Liao. Theme song by the White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns. Additional production support by Mars Melnick. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Battista, and Britt Kahn. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It, too, could be featured on a future episode. You can also get 3 free months of SiriusXM when you sign up at siriusxm.com/conan. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.