Transcript of Adam Grant: The Science of Why We “Vibe” and How to Build Lasting Connections | Relationships | E422

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The whole point of social media was to get us to interact with other humans, but most of us now are basically watching TV alone on our devices. We had our neighbors over, we had our colleagues over. That used to be the way that we got to know people. And now we're basically dining alone.

So why do we connect so easily with some people and struggle with others? That's exactly what we're exploring today with organizational psychologist and bestselling author Adam Grant. We're diving into his new book, Vibe, to explore the science of human connection and how to build stronger relationships in life and business.

People who go to one friend for everything, for all of their companion, ally, and pal needs, are less happy on average. than people who go to different friends for different things because they end up having a more diverse support system. They're part of a community.

You also get this really cool concept that came from penguins called pebbling. Tell us about that.

There are some penguins that when they're courting mates, they go collect these little pebbles, these shiny, smooth stones, and they present them. And the digital human equivalent of pebbling is—

So 2 friends have supported each other for many years, One of them makes introductions, always advises her friend, but when the other lands a promotion, engagement, or financial win, the friend makes subtle digs, minimizes the achievement, or redirects attention to herself.

Ouch. Your frenemies are actually unhealthier for you on average than your enemies are. I think you have a few options with that ambivalent relationship. One option is—

Adam, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.

Thanks, Hala. I'm glad to be back.

So you've been spending your entire career basically studying what makes people successful, and now you've really focused your attention on connection and relationships. You've got this new book, Vibe, which I absolutely loved, and essentially you give these alarming stats and, and research around why we're losing our ability to actually connect. So let's start there. What is making connection so difficult?

Well, I think that we can have successful and failed interactions, and unfortunately we seem to be having more failed interactions than we did in the past. I think social skills turn out to be like muscles. If you don't exercise them, they start to atrophy. And psychologists have shown this for a long time. We know that when astronauts come back from the International Space Station, uh, after months away, they sometimes struggle through their conversations with people back on Earth. We know that when prisoners come out of solitary confinement, they have a harder time making a connection with the people that they meet. And we saw that this was true for all of us coming out of the pandemic, that we got a little rusty. We had more moments of awkwardness. We struggled to think of what to say. And I think the unfortunate consequence of that is a lot of people have started to retreat. It's really easy to feel like you have a connection when When you're commenting on social media, but you don't necessarily really even know the person you're interacting with on the other end. It's easy to feel seen by your chatbot.

Um, but it doesn't feel anything back.

Mm-hmm.

And so I think we're, we're starting to substitute simulated interaction for the real thing to avoid the friction and discomfort of maybe failing. And as a result, we're depriving ourselves of the most rewarding interactions we could have with real humans.

And there was things that like really like stuck with me in your book. The fact that adults are eating dinner more alone, more often than ever, that teenagers are hanging out with their friends less than ever. Talk to us about like, what are some of the symptoms that you're seeing?

Derek Thompson has, I think, captured these probably better than anybody else who's tracking the trends. And he just highlighted 2 others that I, I think are really concerning. One is that the whole point of social media. was to get us to interact with other humans. But most of us now are basically watching TV alone on our devices. Uh, I mean, short-form TV, it's not even, it's not even long-form. It's a reel at a time. And that's pretty solitary. He also has highlighted brand new, it turns out that hosting has gone way down. Um, 70%, 71% fewer hosted dinners and gatherings at people's homes. And That used to be the way that we got to know people. We had our neighbors over, we had our colleagues over, and now we're basically dining alone.

And you yourself said that you struggled making connections. You always knew that you loved people, but you found yourself in college feeling like, man, like, I don't even know if I have real friends.

I definitely struggled with interacting with people when I was younger. I think part of that was just being a shy, nerdy kid. Um, even my friends, made fun of me by calling me Mr. Facts. And I didn't realize at the time that was foreshadowing my future career as a social scientist.

Yeah, it's gonna be great.

But yeah, my job is to be Mr. Facts. Sign me up for that. But, you know, when we were hanging out trading sports cards and collecting comic books and playing basketball, they didn't think it was fun to hear me rattle off statistics all day. And I found myself just, you know, trying to meet people, but really having a hard time even knowing how to, like, what, what does effective small talk look like? I remember going into class and saying, hey, did you see Friends last night? And the person across from me says, yeah, it was funny. Complete end of conversation. No opportunity for connection.

Yeah. And so how did you end up changing that? Like, what was your first foray into building effective connection?

I was really lucky to have a professor, Brian Little, who became my mentor. Brian's a personality psychologist, and he's kind of like a cross between Robin Williams and Patch Adams. He would deliver these electrifying lectures, but he would plant these, these little curiosity gaps. And afterward, like, I would come home from class and I couldn't wait to tell my roommates what I just learned. And my roommates were mostly math and computer science majors, and they were not interested in psychology. But Brian would gimme these little tidbits and I'd come outta class and say, hey, did you know that if you sprinkle lemon juice on your tongue in the morning, if you're an introvert, you actually salivate more than extroverts do? They immediately got interested and they said, really? There's science for that? Tell me more.

Hmm.

And it was a great, it was a great lesson in the fact that We can change the routines that we use to interact with other people. We don't have to stick to the standard social scripts. You don't just have to say, hey, how are you? Like, let's comment on the weather. Let's talk about how awful traffic is. We can actually have real conversations with people, uh, even if it feels like we might be going a little bit deeper than we were taught to. And I've increasingly learned that it's powerful just to skip the small talk. Um, I don't, I don't bother anymore, Hala, to ask people when I meet them, what do you do? A lot of people don't love their jobs. It's alienating. They don't wanna be defined by their work. What I really enjoy asking is, what do you love to do? And just watch them light up.

I love that. I love that tip for like networking events and things like that. So that story you were just telling with your friends was really about you finally vibing with your friends, right? So tell us, what is vibe to you and what is not vibe to you? And what does it mean to truly vibe with people?

Well, I think a lot of people, when they use the term vibe, they say, oh, this place has great vibes, or I love her vibe. But a vibe is more than something a person or place gives off. It's the energy that comes out of interacting with other people. And I think about a great vibe as a high-quality connection. Uh, it's where we feel like we click, we have chemistry, we're building toward closeness. Um, a bad vibe, we have, we've kind of been ships passing in the night. We're not on the same page. And, you know, I think that for a lot of people, you know it when you feel it, right? You could walk out of a conversation and say, wow, we were really vibing, whether that was a first date or a great brainstorming meeting. But we can actually trace it in your body. Neuroscientists find that when people feel like they're vibing, their brainwaves and their heartbeats start to synchronize. So their bodies are literally moving in coordination. And I think that's what, what the feeling of, of a vibe really is traced to.

I just love this concept. Like I was just devouring your book because I feel like it's so actionable and it's so like refreshing because you actually talk about relationships as like not necessarily a ladder. Like when we think of a, of relationships, we often think like, okay, how do we move like from acquaintance to to best friend. Uh, but you really say there's 4 different types of wavelengths and you can kind of like mix and match them. And, uh, there's like kind of like nuances with it. So why don't you first walk us through the 4 different wavelengths of relationships?

Yeah, let's talk about associates, allies, pals, and companions. These are basically the 4 important kinds of people in your life. And I think associates are probably the least meaningful for most people. Um, they're, they're people who basically are in your life because they fulfill a need for you or you address a need for them. So it might be the neighbor that you carpool with when your kids need to go somewhere. It might be the painter that you pay, uh, or the carpenter who, who fixes up things that are broken in your house. And you don't have to have an emotional bond with them. You know, you can rely on them when you need them and they can address your issue. I think that meaningful connections are the other 3. Uh, I think of them as allies, pals, and companions. So allies are basically people who share your goals. You're on a mission together. They're the people you would love to start a company with, launch a project with. Um, they usually have complementary skills, um, and they make you better than you could be alone. Pals are people who share your interests. Uh, you basically have fun together.

These are the people that you might want to invite to play pickleball or to go do karaoke together. Uh, they, they make you laugh. And then finally, your companions are people who share your values. You have deep affection for each other. Uh, these are the people who you might confide in when you're going through a challenging situation. Um, they provide you support, they offer compassion, they console you. And I think that the big aha that I had when I was studying these different types of connections is it's not inherently better to have one or the other. What matters is, are you on the same page with other people about the kind of interaction you're having or the type of relationship you're trying to build? So, Hala, if I see you as a companion and I start to tell you about my childhood experience of being bullied in elementary school, And you think we're just pals, like, whoa, TMI, back off. You should not have told me that. And it, it feels like it's a little bit inappropriate. If I see you as an ally and I'm really excited to collaborate with you, and you think that we're supposed to be pals and you're joking around all the time, I might get annoyed.

I'm like, get with the program. We're trying to get things done. Stop procrastinating. And so I think that being on different wavelengths is a recipe for being disappointed, sometimes even feeling betrayed by other people. And we wanna try to get aligned sooner rather than later.

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Mark is a legendary Silicon Valley entrepreneur and investor. And this fast-paced 170-page book is his playbook for testing ideas quickly, navigating uncertainty, and figuring out what's actually worth pursuing. One of my favorite concepts is what he calls the abyss, those moments when you feel stuck or unsure of what's next. Instead of fearing uncertainty, he shows you how to use it as a tool for discovery. Right now, Mark is doing a buy one, get one offer for YAP listeners. Go to getmarksbook.com/yap, buy one copy for $32, and get a second copy free so you can keep one for yourself and give the second to a friend, future co-founder, or someone who needs a little push. I'm definitely gonna ask you questions about how we can actually make sure we're on the same wavelength as our colleagues and friends. Uh, but first, a way that I want to help our young and profiters really learn this is by going through some scenarios. So I came up with a game called Are We Really Vibing? And basically I'm gonna go over like 5 or 6 different scenarios and, uh, they're gonna be like use cases that I think we'll really learn from and then ask some follow-ups.

And then when I give these scenarios, you can let us know, you know, what kind of wavelength are they on? Do you recommend they change anything, do anything, set boundaries, or how can they improve the connection? Okay.

Love it.

All right. Scenario number 1, the co-founders who are not friends. 2 co-founders have built a multimillion-dollar business together over 7 years. They trust one another. They divide responsibilities well. They always have each other's backs professionally, but they rarely socialize. They know little about each other's personal lives. They wouldn't choose to vacation together. One of them worries their partnership lacks chemistry because they aren't Ooh.

Okay. So this sounds like a great ally connection. And I think one of the founders associates closeness with having also a pal or companion bond, and the other doesn't seem concerned about that. So I think that's a conversation worth having. Um, you don't have to be friends with your co-founders. You definitely do not want your company to be a family, right? What matters first and foremost, if we're gonna work together effectively, is We are allies, meaning we, we basically have agreed on what we're trying to accomplish. And we've also figured out what the right path is to do that. And if we're, if we're aligned on that, like we don't need to be hanging out outside the office. We don't need to be goofing around. We don't need to know each other's families or each other's personal lives. But if one person is worried that the relationship is suffering, that's a conversation to have. And I'd say, look, this is why I think this is a great ally bond. This is why I don't need to be, you know, pals or companions with you. And at some level it's easier because, uh, I think about, for example, Hala, um, Noam Wasserman's written about this in his research.

There's a common phenomenon where when friends start a company together, uh, they often fail because they put the friendship ahead of the business. And so they're afraid to have difficult conversations. They don't want to cause conflict. Um, and ultimately they end up protecting the friendship until the business fails. And then the destruction of the business destroys the friendship too. And so I think being just allies is a perfectly reasonable and sometimes even healthier way to operate.

Yeah. And it still can mean that you support each other. You, you attend birthdays and weddings and like, you can still support one another, but not necessarily be so like intimate in each other's personal lives.

Well put. I should have said that. Much more succinct.

No. Uh, okay. The best friend who only shows up for fun. 2 women have been best friends for a decade. They travel together, they laugh all the time, they celebrate milestones, but when one faces a breakup, job loss, family crisis, the other one tends to disappear. But once things improve, she returns as if nothing happened.

Great pal, bad companion.

Do you recommend that they have some sort of conversation to get on the same page? And, and would you consider that friend a bad friend?

Not necessarily. I think the first question to ask is, do you need that person as a companion in your life? I think a lot of people assume in order to, in order for us to be really close, especially if we wanna be best friends, we have to connect on every wavelength. We need to be pals and companions. We might even wanna be allies and associates. too, but that's not effective in every relationship. And it may be that the kind of emotional support you're seeking is not the kind that your close friend is good at providing. And so it's possible you could just say, you know what, I'm happy having that person as a pal. If you're looking for the emotional closeness that, you know, she would be there as opposed to disappearing when things go wrong, then yeah, that's a conversation to say, hey, this relationship is really important to me. Mm-hmm. I'm seeking a particular kind of companionship from you, which by the way, I also work really hard to provide, and I wanna be there for you as that kind of friend. And I wanna talk about, is that an expectation that's reasonable for us to have in this relationship?

I feel like that's really great advice. That way, you know, you can decide to kind of pull back like, okay, I'm not gonna help her next time she gets like, has a breakup or something because she doesn't wanna provide that support to me and I don't wanna have this imbalance. That makes me feel bad.

I think that's utterly fair.

The boss who thinks they're best friends. A woman has worked for her boss for 5 years. The boss has mentored her, promoted her, but now the boss invites her to personal dinners, shares intimate relationship problems, and expects weekend plans. When the employee declines, the boss questions her loyalty. The employee values the professional relationship, but not the added intimacy.

My colleague Nancy Rothbard wrote a research paper about this. It's called OMG, My Boss Just Friended Me. I think this is, this is a potential, well, it's an ally or associate who is kind of crossing over into Pal-Vader territory. Um, maybe even crossing a boundary to try to become a companion too. And I think if that interest is not reciprocated, or if the power differential makes it too uncomfortable, I think it's fair to sit down with the boss and say, hey, uh, I, you know, I, I try to keep a strict boundary between my professional life and my personal life. Um, I, you know, I appreciate the enthusiasm you show about, you know, about getting to know each other better. I, you know, I want to obviously make sure I'm not missing out on anything, on anything that is relevant to us being successful together, um, at work, but I'm really going to try to keep Everything work-related at work. And I hope that's okay with you. And if it's not, we should talk about how to manage it.

And I love this concept of a palvator. Tell us more about that.

Okay. My oldest daughter, Joanna, coined the term. She calls someone a palvator when somebody who is an acquaintance or an ally or an associate suddenly starts treating you like they're your pal. Uh, they, they violate boundaries. They might, it might be a colleague who texts you outside of work and you start thinking, why did I give that person my cell phone? I don't know. We're, we are not on a texting basis. Uh, they start inviting you out to lunch or dinner or to hang out. And it's, I think it's intrusive because it changes the expectations for what the relationship was all about. If you want to be pals too, great. If you are content to not be pals or you really don't want to be, The invasion is happening.

What is like a polite way to not be like, decline wanting to be a pal with someone?

I would really like to know that because I have fumbled my way through that conversation a few times. I think, you know, the, the honest conversation—

Quiet distance.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, some people just end up ghosting that person because they find the conversation too awkward. And I think sometimes it is hard to have, but What I've tried to do and sometimes even gotten positive reactions to is to say, look, um, you know, I just, I, I like you a lot. I don't have time for more friends in my life. And I already feel like I'm, I'm barely keeping up with my existing friendships. And so adding a new one is just something I don't have space for right now. But that, you know, it's, it's basically, it's not you, it's me.

And another idea that, that I have is maybe like doing some sort of like community work with them or, organizational work that allows you to like hang out, but like aligned to some sort of mission. So it's not necessarily like you guys have to like bond over hobbies. You can bond over something else that's like community work, for example.

I think that's a great solution. I think anytime you can join a club or a group or an activity together, not only does it add a purpose, but you also have other people around you. So it doesn't create the same expectation that you're gonna have one-on-one interactions with somebody that You do not want to pal.

Okay, next one. The brilliant coworkers who can't stand each other. So 2 senior executives are opposite. One is creative, spontaneous, emotional. The other one is very analytical, structured, and blunt. They argue, they never socialize, yet their joint projects always deliver the best results. The CEO considers separating them because their relationship is dysfunctional.

Well, it sounds like those are people who are supposed to be associates or allies, but they've actually become adversaries.

Yeah.

What do we do with them? We have a few options. One is to separate them and just say, look, these people don't work well together. We're not gonna force fit it. A second is we're gonna try to do something that I, I did once at a tech company. So I got this call from a Fortune 50 tech company and they said, we have new managers coming in. They're building new teams and they're really struggling to vibe with them. Can you help us? And I ended up launching this experiment. that dramatically reduced their conflict in the first 30 days, and in some cases, even for the first 3 months. What I did was I had the new managers share their triggers. They talked about the things that just really set them off, that caused them to fly off the handle and lose their cool. Um, basically the things that make them really angry or really anxious. And some people get very specific with their triggers. Hala, we had managers say, My biggest trigger is when someone has inaccurate sports knowledge. Like, really? That's the thing you care about? Yeah. It really pisses me off. Okay. I'm glad.

I'm glad to know that. And what happens is when people know what your triggers are, one, they're less likely to, to actually push your buttons. And so they avoid causing conflict in the first place. Mm-hmm. And 2, when they do sort of accidentally step on one of those landmines, They know, oh, you are not angry at me. You, that's just something that's a pet peeve of yours. And so they're able to make sense of the situation a little bit better. And I think that when we work with other people, we're gonna find out what their triggers are eventually anyway. We might as well accelerate the process of, of knowing what is it that brings out the worst in you and how do I avoid being that person? So I might sit these 2 down and say, let's walk through their triggers, your triggers. Let's learn about each other's triggers and then avoid pushing each other's buttons as much as possible. And then I think it's time to separate them. One of them, when one of them says, yeah, my biggest trigger is the other person. Like everything they do bothers me. Okay. That might be a losing battle.

What's up, YAP fam? You guys know we love reading on this show, so I'm always excited when I find a book I genuinely think is worth sharing. Life at the Speed of Play: Launch Products People Love by Mark Pincus is one of those books. Mark is a legendary Silicon Valley entrepreneur and investor, and this fast-paced 170-page book is his playbook for testing ideas quickly, navigating uncertainty, and figuring out what's actually worth pursuing. One of my favorite concepts is what he calls the abyss, those moments when you feel stuck or unsure of what's next. Instead of fearing uncertainty, he shows you how to use it as a tool for discovery. Right now, Mark is doing a buy one, get one offer for YAP listeners. Go to getmarksbook.com/yap, buy one copy for $32, and get a second copy free so you can keep one for yourself and give the second to a friend, future co-founder, or someone who needs a little push. Hello, young and profiteers. If you're running a business, getting website traffic is only half the battle. The real key to profiting is turning those visitors into paying customers. And I know checkout friction can quietly kill your sales.

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You can record just 15 seconds of footage, create an AI avatar of yourself, and use it to make videos on demand. So instead of constantly filming from scratch, you can create more content, stay visible, and keep showing up without making your entire life be about generating content. And you guys know I'm always looking for tools that give entrepreneurs more leverage. HeyGen is definitely one of those tools. 30 million people already use it, from solo founders to 85% of the Fortune 100. Your first 3 videos are free at heygen.com/profiting. That's H-E-Y-G-E-N.com/profiting. R-O-F-I-T-I-N-G, heygen.com/profiting. You actually give some really great stories in the book about how to like foster chemistry and vibes with people who have like different political views or like, you know, just like opposing opinions on things. And some of the, the different, like building things together can help. Talk to us about some of those stories. I'd love to hear them.

The stories that have, have probably affected me the most deeply are the ones where people start out not just disliking each other, but hating each other, and then develop a deep bond. I think maybe the most extreme example that I've come across was C.P. Ellis and Anna Atwater. Uh, so Ellis was a white supremacist. Uh, he was a leader of his local chapter of the KKK. Um, and Atwater was a Black civil rights activist. And they hated each other so much that they'd actually tried to kill each other. And both, both been stopped. Anne once lunged at CP with a knife at a town hall meeting because he was shouting racial slurs. And then CP, at a march, brought a gun and was planning to shoot Anne and her fellow protesters. But the protests ended up diverting. So what are the odds that these, these two are even going to have a civil conversation, let alone become friends? Highly unlikely. I think if we saw them today, we would probably dismiss C.P. as utterly toxic. Um, we'd say, you know, Anne's a little bit antagonistic and they're hopeless. We'll write them both off. It's a lost cause.

But they came together in Durham, North Carolina, and They came together because the school system was being desegregated, and they were both concerned about how that was gonna affect their kids. And there was a mediator there, Bill Riddick, who had this wild idea. He said, what if we have the two of them co-lead a task force to try to build a plan for peaceful school desegregation? And they didn't want anything to do with each other. They showed up at the first dinner, And actually refused to speak to each other. But eventually when they had this shared task and they were working intensely for a period of, of, it was actually days and days from morning till late at night. They're in this bubble together. They, they kind of break down out of exhaustion and they talk about how worried they are about how their kids are being affected by this whole experience. And they start to melt a little bit toward each other and they go from being extreme antagonists who have an adversarial relationship to reluctant associates and then allies. And eventually, Ann ends up defending C.P. and standing up for him when other people are criticizing him.

And C.P. renounces his KKK membership. And Ann's granddaughter grows up calling him Uncle C.P. They're so close.

Wow.

Like, they have become not only pals, companions, they call each other brother and sister.

Whoa.

And I think the big lesson from a story like that, at least if you look at the research on what builds bridges across these kinds of extreme differences, is giving people a common goal and aligning them in an environment that takes them away from their existing group, away from their filter bubble, away from whatever prejudices they have, and forces them to see the humanity in the other person. Is a great starting point for finding common ground.

What a great story. I, I just like love that example and the lesson with that. Okay. 2 more scenarios. The friend who secretly competes with you. So 2 friends have supported each other for many years. One of them makes introductions, always advises her friend, shows up during difficult moments, but when the other lands a promotion, engagement, or financial win, The friend makes subtle, subtle digs, minimizes the achievement, or redirects attention to herself.

Ouch. So we have a, we have a friend who's a frenemy. I would call this an ambivalent relationship, Hala.

Yeah.

I think most people assume that the worst relationships are enemies. If you have somebody who's an adversary or an antagonist, you wanna avoid that person as much as possible.

Mm-hmm.

But if you look at the data over the last few decades, what we see is that Your frenemies are actually unhealthier for you on average than your enemies are. The more of these ambivalent relationships you have in your life where you have mixed feelings, you, you have positive thoughts about them, but also negative thoughts about them. You appreciate their virtues, but you're also really bothered by their vices. Those interactions take a toll. The more ambivalent ties you have, the greater your risk of stress, also even cardiovascular disease. If you show up to interact with somebody that you have an ambivalent relationship with, your blood pressure spikes more, your heart rate goes up because it's unpredictable. It's uncertain. You don't know who's gonna show up. Is it gonna be Dr. Jekyll? Is it gonna be Mr. Hyde? And so you're constantly bracing yourself. You don't know, are we gonna hug? Are we gonna fight? Um, and all that uncertainty has you constantly on edge. I think, I think you have a few options with that ambivalent relationship. So in the case of this friend who is, you know, kind of, who kind of has your back, but is also sort of stabbing you in the back.

Mm-hmm.

I think one option is to say, look, you know, the, the negative interactions are just not worth it. And we're gonna relegate this person to associate or acquaintance, or I, I don't want them in my life anymore. However, if you appreciate their virtues, if you value their strengths, then I think what you do is you try to build a more positive relationship. And the best way to do that, that I know of at least, is you try to accept their personality, but you contain their behaviors. So you might have an honest conversation with that friend and say, hey, like, I value the following things about you, but I've also noticed that when I achieve a success or when I have a Like a, a highlight moment, I feel like you're, you know, you, you respond with digs or you're a little bit snarky or critical, and it doesn't seem like you enjoy my success. I'd love to better understand why is that? Am I doing something that elicits that reaction and how do we prevent it? 'Cause I don't wanna have those kinds of interactions and I can't imagine you do either.

Yeah, I feel like this really hits home for me because I feel like I've had a lot of friends that have like done similar things like that to me and Uh, the way that I've been able to handle it is, to your point, like having that conversation and then you find out that the person actually has like deep insecurity or like they just like, they're kind of like jealous of where you've gone and like, it's just a, it's like their insecurity is kind of just showing up. And then, you know, as a friend, like, well, maybe I just need to be a little bit more caring about hyping them up or like supporting them even more so that they feel happy when I also have success rather than jealous.

I think that's a, that's a great response. And look, it can't be easy if you have friends who are young and not profiting. They're, they're going to see that. They're going to see your success as a little bit of a threat. They're going to feel like, well, she thinks that I'm not as good as she is, or I always feel like I'm in Hala's shadow, or it's just a reminder to me of my own failures and shortcomings. And I think sometimes it's best to call out the elephant in the room and just say, hey, look, I actually had this conversation with a friend of mine. Um, I had a friend who, a very close friend who just one day stopped returning my calls. And I'd occasionally get a text or email, but we didn't talk for years. And it was unusual because we used to talk very frequently. And finally we met up in person. And I said, I just, I'm sad and I miss you. What's going on? And I will never forget, Hala, what he said to me back. He said, I'm embarrassed. I said, what? He said, I'm really proud of, of what you've achieved and I'm happy for you.

I feel like I don't measure up and I'm not worthy of being in your life. Look, we became friends long before anyone had any idea what success would mean to us. Let alone who would end up pursuing what goals. I don't care what you achieve. I love you for who you are. And you're important in my life because of the values you stand for, not the results that you achieve in the job you happen to pick. And we have, we have really had no issues staying in touch since then. And I was hesitant to have the conversation and I'm so glad he did because I guess we were both dancing around it, but ultimately. Like he was just bringing some baggage to this table and I didn't see it and I needed to know that he was carrying it in order to lighten the load on him.

And I feel like the frenemy thing really happens like with, with like friends you made in childhood or in college and things like that. I feel like that's where it really happens cuz there's like this, people just change and you need to have that communication to understand like what's really going on here.

Yeah. And so often it's social comparison. at the heart of it.

Mm-hmm.

Right. People feel that you are somewhere that they are not, or that they would like to be. And that becomes envy. Not all envy is bad though. There's a difference.

Mm-hmm.

When psychologists study, study this, there's a difference between what's called benign and malevolent envy. Malevolent envy is, I want you to fail, uh, because I'm threatened by your success and it hurts me. That is not, that doesn't belong in a friendship. Period.

Yeah.

Benign envy. I want what you have. I admire what you have. I wish I could be more like you. It's great to have friends that you see as role models. There's nothing wrong with that. And in fact, I think it's sometimes a healthy dynamic in a friendship to be able to admit it and just say, hey, I, you know, I've, I've, I'm really wowed by what you've achieved and I'm hoping for more of that myself one day.

Okay. Last one. The friends who haven't spoken in years. 2 college friends were inseparable. They shared secrets, supported each other through heartbreak. Careers, family, and distance intervene. They don't talk for 3 years. On reconnecting though, they speak for 4 hours as if no time had passed, and then they go silent for another 6 months.

Well, those sound like dormant ties.

Mm-hmm.

We all have dormant ties in our lives, or Maybe not in our lives, but they once were.

Yeah.

They're the people we used to know. And I think when, you know, when a tie goes dormant, a lot of us are afraid to reach out because we think too much time has passed and either the relationship has fizzled or they don't care about me anymore, or they won't want to hear from me. That is a mistake. If you look at the data on this, when people reconnect, when they reach out to somebody that they've lost contact with, 90% of the time it ends up being an enjoyable interaction. And so that, that gut, that gut response you have of, well, some ties are dormant for a reason. Like, no, most ties are not dormant for a good reason. We didn't mean to fall out of touch. We got busy. We moved, we changed jobs. We had kids. And I think so often when people just, they put themselves out there a little bit to reconnect. Yeah. Um, they end up pleasantly surprised by the conversation they, they've had. Now, if somebody was a close ally or pal or companion, they're probably gonna be more excited to hear from you, and it's gonna be a little bit easier to rekindle the bond.

But even if they were distant before, if there's a reason that you would love to be back in touch with them, what's the worst case scenario? The worst case scenario is you reconnect and it doesn't rekindle your bond and you are exactly where you were before. They're not in your life, but they weren't in your life anyway. So I think there's very little to lose and a lot to gain.

Yeah, I totally agree. Um, something that's related to this that I wanted to bring up is the fact that you can be really great companions with people that you don't necessarily talk to or see all the time. Like for example, I have like 3 best friends that I grew up with and we don't live in the same city anymore, but I see them like On all their major birthdays, like, or occasions and like for dinner, like at least 2, 3 times a year. And we're best friends, you know, we're, we're chatting, I guess, on text. So I guess it's more frequent cuz we are having like digital communication, but we've got like these like intense periods of time together. And I know that you call that bursting in your book. So tell us about that and why that can really sustain friendships even if we don't see each other a lot. Yeah.

Well, I don't think we should mistake the frequency of communication for the depth of connection. Those are different things. And in fact, the test of a close relationship is, can you go months or years without interacting and pick up like you never missed a beat and know that if something important or exciting is happening or something difficult is happening, that the other person is gonna show up for you and you're gonna be there for them, right? You can, to your point, you can be companions who have not been in touch in 8 years. But you know, if you pick up the phone and call, they will answer and they will listen and they'll be there to support you however they can. I think the dynamic that you're describing, I love the term burstiness. Um, it, it, I know it from the research by Anita Woolley and her colleagues. And basically the finding is that in all kinds of great relationships, you see this in collaborations, um, not just friendships. People don't interact in consistent streams. They alternate between periods of, of silent time and these intense bursts of activity. And the bursts are happening because people are energized around connecting and reconnecting.

They're excited to see each other. They have ideas to share with each other, but then they have to go off and live their lives and do their work and solve problems. And then they come back together and they have something new to bring to the table. And I think that's just a reasonable cadence of maintaining relationships. We all have. We all have a lot of people in our lives. We all probably have more people that we like and care about than we have time to check in with every single day. And so I think just relaxing the expectation of like, okay, if we don't check in every week, then we must not be friends anymore. I think can relieve a lot of the pressure and the guilt, which we just don't need more of that.

Do you recommend that people take an inventory of the different types of relationships that they have? And is there any relationship that you feel like people really need to pay attention to, to live like a happy life?

So I didn't, I didn't actually realize this until I was finishing writing Vibe, but I think we need a constellation of different kinds of connections. So it turns out that people who go to one friend for everything, for all of their companion, ally, and pal needs, are less happy on average than people who go to different friends. for different things because they end up having a more diverse support system and they're, they're part of a community as opposed to putting all their eggs in one basket. And so one of the things that I've had a lot of fun with is I ended up writing a short quiz to try to figure out, okay, what's the most natural way that you vibe with other people and what kinds of connections might be missing in your life? And as I always do when I write an assessment as a psychologist, I took it myself and I discovered that my go-to way to connect with people is as allies. Like when I meet somebody new and I like them, my first impulse is to ask, what are you trying to accomplish this year? What's your biggest challenge and how can I help?

And I realized that I have a lot of great ally bonds, but I didn't have as many pals who live near me that just enjoy hanging out. Um, I, yeah, like people would say, let's go, let's go have drinks. I'm like, nah, not for me. What are we accomplishing here? And having realized that I missed out on that, I've started a padel league where a bunch of people who also love racket sports get to get together and we just have a blast trying to beat each other, but also learn together. And I think that was, that was missing for me. I think for everybody that might look a little bit different. Um, but I think it's just worth reflecting on, do you have enough allies? Do you have enough pals? Do you have enough companions? Don't put all of that on one person. Hala, what do you, what do you do most naturally when you connect with people and what's missing in your life?

Well, I recently moved to Austin like, uh, a year and a half ago, and actually I have like more friends than ever. Um, but something that I was thinking about is that I don't know, other than my boyfriend, I don't know if I've developed any companions here. Mm-hmm. I feel like I have a lot of pals where like they're also entrepreneurs. They also might be allies and pals together because we talk about business, we might do business together, but then we go work out and we have coffee. Yeah. And dinner. Um, so I feel like they're allies and pals, but I wouldn't necessarily, like if I needed a ride to the hospital, like I wouldn't call one of them up, I don't think, you know, like, cuz my best friends live in New York. Right. So, uh, I think, I think if I could maybe have more companions in Austin other than my boyfriend, but I'm not even sure I need that. What do, what do you think?

Look, I'm not qualified to tell you what you need in your life. I, I can't say it, but I do think it's interesting. I think that, you know, when I think about what I know about your career and in general, ambitious people, like allyship is what tends to come first. It's—

Yeah.

It's obvious, right? You're very goal-oriented. You know, you need other people to help you succeed. And so you naturally seek that out. And then like at some point you discover some common interests and you realize, oh, we love the same band or Uh, we like, we both really love hiking or biking. And so you start to develop these kind of pal hobbies together. And if nobody makes a move toward companionship, it might not happen. It, that requires a level of vulnerability. It requires either a self-disclosure moment, um, what's often called a disruptive disclosure where you say, hey, I haven't told a lot of people this, but I actually trust you enough that I want to share this with you. And you talk a little bit about your cultural background or, um, a challenge you faced growing up or something that's causing you anxiety right now. Or if you don't go the self-disclosure route, you can also go the, the opposite route of, of asking them, like, tell me a little bit about your defining childhood moments that shaped you. Um, what's your biggest regret? You could swap embarrassing stories. Those are, those are some of the topics that in the research tend to accelerate companionship, but it does require a bit of a leap of faith because you're adding a new wavelength to an interaction.

It's not been part of the relationship before. You don't know how the other person will respond. And so I always like to start with bounded vulnerability. You share a mildly embarrassing story, not the most humiliating experience of your life. Uh, you ask about something a little bit emotional, but not something that might go really deep, really fast. And then you hopefully build from there.

How do you think about time with a relationship? Do you feel like more time with someone automatically like builds companionship, or is it more about like intensity?

I think on average, the longer you've known someone, the easier it is to be vulnerable with them. And so, you know, having some history, it does make it less awkward to, to make a bid for companionship. But I've been surprised in the experiments that have been done on this by how easy it is to just go right to a companion connection with a complete stranger. So in some of these experiments, people end up being randomly assigned to skip small talk and just have deep talk. And, uh, one of the questions that comes out in the research is, have you ever committed a crime? That's, that's a big reveal. I haven't, by the way.

Yeah.

But, but it turns out a lot of people have something that they wanna disclose. And after just that 9-minute conversation of, you know, admitting or not what they'd done that was illegal or wrong, um, people come away saying, I feel close to the other person that I just met.

Mm-hmm.

And knowing that there's a mutual interest in, you know, in going deep is enough to open the door. And so I think one thing that people could do more of is when you meet somebody that you might want to engage with as a companion to just say, hey, I've gotten, I've gotten really tired of small talk. I feel like it's a huge waste of time. And when I spend time with people, I want to have real conversations. I want to really get to know them. I want to have a chance to open up and share something that's personal about me. If you're up for that, I am all in. If not, Totally fine.

You know, I wonder if there's a different dynamic between women and men, cuz as I'm hearing you talk, like all my, all the girls that like I go work out with and have dinner with, like we talk about everything, right? Like we're telling each other like really intimate stuff. I still wouldn't call them if I needed a ride to the hospital. So like, I don't know. I wonder if there's just a different dynamic cuz like a lot of, like, I don't really hang out with women that are like, we're not telling each other about our lives. Mm-hmm. Like. Maybe like if I meet them in passing at a party once in a while, but like not, not girls I hang out with.

I think part of what I'm hearing is you think some of your companions are bad allies or associates, cuz you're just not sure if they would navigate to the hospital well. But I think it also might be—

Or maybe like, I just feel like it's just too much to ask. Like,

it's a big imposition.

I don't know if they're not. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's reasonable. I think you wanna be the giver in the relationship. You don't wanna feel like a taker. But

yeah,

I, I also think, you know, there are levels of companionship. And so you may have a bunch of friends who are more distant companions where you have emotional intimacy, but you don't, you don't make big asks of each other, or you don't maybe confess your deepest, darkest secrets to them. And you know, that, I think that's possible. I do think there, there are gender differences here. So my read of the research on this is that women have an easier time doing emotional intimacy with their friends than men do. Like men kind of show up for an interaction and like, well, what, what are we supposed to do? We're supposed to grunt in the gym or in the garage or at the game. Uh, but real talk, kind of hard. And yet I had the most interesting conversation with one of my coaches, one of my diving coaches from growing up. He told me one day that he preferred coaching women over men. And yeah, I was a little sad cuz I, I wanted, I wanted to be in the favorite group. And I asked, I asked why, why he felt that way. And he said, well, I feel like I never really get to know my male divers and my female divers.

Like, I, like, he was, he sort of became like a father figure to them. And I said, well, that's a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? Because if you assume that your male, that your male athletes don't wanna open up, you're gonna have different kinds of interactions with them. You're going to pal around a lot, but you're probably not going to have those more personal, more intimate discussions. And of course, we don't know if they're going to reciprocate or not, but that is a two-way street. And sure enough, in the next few years, he ended up talking a little bit more about some of the emotional challenges that he had started with diving, you know, stories like, you know, I got lost in midair and it was really stressful. And guess what? Some of the male divers reciprocated and they started talking about their fears. And so I think the gender instincts do not have to be a gendered reality.

Let's say we want to show someone that like, we really appreciate the relationship. What are some things that we can do to show that like, we wanna be better friends or, or build a deeper relationship?

Yeah, I think what we need are more signals like we have in romantic relationships. So, you know, I think millennials and Gen Z would say we're official or we're exclusive. Uh, I think baby boomers used to say we're going steady. We don't have this kind of language when it comes to non-romantic relationships. And I think we should. I actually did this yesterday. I, uh, I was at an event with, uh, with somebody whose work I've really admired for a long time. And we've had great interactions over the years. But there hasn't been any meaningful relationship that's come out of it. And I just said, hey, I'd love to be real allies and maybe even pals. And he started laughing and said, me too. I don't know that everybody wants to put a label on the type of bond that they're trying to have, but I think these small moves to just signal that you're interested in a deeper connection can matter a lot. And one of my favorites happened last year. I, uh, I met somebody who Sent me a cold email and I loved her work and we ended up doing a podcast together.

And then after we interacted, she sent me an email saying, I hope this is the beginning of a real friendship.

Aw.

And I love that, Hala. I thought going in, I thought this person could be a great ally. She's really smart. She's really interesting. Her expertise is very different from mine. I'm excited to learn from her. I had so much fun talking to her that I wanted her to meet my wife and my kids and like I could see us actually hanging out as families. And her saying, I hope this is the beginning of a real friendship, signaled to me that that was mutual. I don't think I would've, I don't think I would've had the guts to put that out there. She did. And we've become friends because of it.

Yeah, I love that. It's like, just, just let the other person know, like just make, make the ask basically. You also get this really cool concept, uh, that I love that came from penguins called pebbling. Tell us about that.

Pebbling is the best. So there are some penguins that when they're courting mates, they go collect these little pebbles, these shiny, smooth stones, and they present them. And it's a way of signaling— yeah, I can't read a penguin's mind, but I think, I think the message they're sending is something to the effect of, I would be a good mate. We could build a nest together. And I think that the digital human equivalent of pebbling Is when we send somebody else a meme, a reel, or a link or an article that we think they would love.

Mm-hmm.

Now I wanna be clear. I'm not talking about spamming everyone you know with random junk from the internet in a giant group text. What I'm talking about is you've got somebody that you just met and you really like them, and you had a fascinating conversation about, uh, about how to deal with ambivalent relationships. And then you catch an article about that topic a few weeks later and you send it to them and you say, hey, this reminded me of our conversation and I, I'd love to chat about it with you. What the research on this shows is that when you make that little move, when you send them that pebble, you are making a bid for connection and you are basically showing them, hey, I paid attention to your interests. I remember what you care about and what we talked about. And I'm interested in building on it. And I think every pebble you send is a gesture of care. And what we know from the research is when you send those kinds of pebbles, it's a great way both to strengthen a bond with somebody that you're just getting to know. It's also a powerful way to reconnect with somebody that you've lost touch with.

Mm-hmm.

To say, hey, I watched a movie that took me right back to when we were in college, and I could just imagine being in our dorm watching it with you. And I, I hope you get a chance to see it. Would love to catch up.

It's so smart because like, especially as we get older with careers and family, you don't often have like time to actually go physically be with someone, maybe just like a couple times a year. But if in between you're sending them little pebbles, then it's, you're basically just keeping that relationship alive. So I absolutely loved that little hack.

Are you a pebbler?

That was so good. With certain friends, like we really do like pebble all the time. I feel like certain friends, uh, and other ones I'd love to like start doing that more often and being more like conscious of it. I've got friends that do that to me a lot. So then I like reciprocate, but I feel like I need to—

To initiate more.

Yeah. I need to initiate more.

So I've been thinking a little bit about what makes a good pebble. And I think there are 3, there are 3 things that really stand out when I look at my favorite pebbles that I've received. One is just the effort involved that the person found a meme that wasn't already going viral, or, you know, they, they, they looked for something that was uniquely relevant to me. Secondly, that it's really personalized, that they couldn't have just sent it to anyone. They figured out why it was, it was about us or something we both cared about that maybe other people couldn't relate to. Maybe it was an inside joke. And then third, it comes, it opens the door to conversation. It comes with an invitation to follow up. It's not just a, hey, watch this reel. I laughed at it. You too will find it amusing. Right?

It's,

it's, hey, Like, this is, you know, this is a topic we could discuss. This is something we could laugh about together. It's a meme that we could then start doing together.

So Adam, we don't have that much time left together, so I wanted to spend the last couple minutes talking about how we can have better events, especially as business owners and entrepreneurs. Like, how can we actually facilitate, uh, connection when we're the ones hosting? What's your best advice on that?

Well, I think what we need is better choreography. I think we should come into, whether you're hosting a meeting or a conference or a dinner party, we should come in with an idea about what wavelength are we trying to have people connect on. So if we want people to be allies, I would say my favorite exercise is to run a reciprocity ring.

Mm-hmm.

Wayne and Cheryl Baker invented it. It's this great exercise where you ask everybody in a room to write down a request for something they want or need, but can't get on their own. And then you just challenge everybody else to use their knowledge and their networks to try to fulfill the request and sign up where they think they could be helpful. Immediate opportunity for people to solve each other's problems. And people are often blown away by how helpful either a complete stranger might be, or that they were able to solve the problem of somebody they knew well, who never even bothered to tell them that they were trying to help their neighbor find a job. So I think on an ally channel, what we're trying to do is basically create opportunities for people to help each other. I think if you want people to be pals, you need an idea of what shared fun looks like. And I'll give you a very small example of what this might involve. Um, I was, uh, I was hosting a gathering recently and I showed up and my wife had told me she got me this shirt to wear and I put it on and I walked in.

It was a, it was a shirt actually kind of like this. It was like a plaid flannel shirt and every single person in the room was wearing one. And we all started laughing and, you know, it led to this hilarious conversation about, do you, do you love plaid? And I was like, I don't, I don't dislike plaid, but it's not, it's not a special thing for me. Why are we all wearing this? But it opened us up as pals right away. And we had something to laugh about together, uh, especially the people who had to scramble because they didn't own a single plaid item, but They got the memo and they wanted to follow through. Uh, but it was just a little moment of shared fun. And then we followed it up by having people debate whether a hot dog is a sandwich. And people got so into this, they were laughing hysterically. One pair ended up agreeing, no, a hot dog is not a sandwich. It's a taco, a soft taco. I mean, who, who would not feel like pals after having that conversation? And then if you want to create a companion dynamic at your gathering, I think you have to create some norms around people showing vulnerability.

I went to an event last year where, uh, one of the exercises was draw a picture. There are about 15, 20, maybe 25 people in the room. Draw a picture of your childhood home. Circle a room in the home that means something to you personally, and then take the next 5 minutes and just write a quick journal entry about what that room symbolizes for you. And then read the entry out loud to the group. People burst into tears sharing those stories and immediate companionship happened afterward. And I don't know that that's the exercise that everybody wants to do at their gathering, but it's an illustration of how, if you're thoughtful about, are we trying to be allies, pals, companions, maybe some combination of the above, you're gonna plan your event differently.

That makes me think of like trauma bonding, like, like basically How does trauma form, like help form companionship, or is that even like a healthy way to bond?

I think that if it were up to me, we would not ever force trauma bonds on anyone. I think, yeah, I, I heard this for years from my students that they thought like, well, I'm really close to my fraternity brothers or my sorority sisters, and that's because of the hazing rituals. We suffered together.

Mm-hmm.

And therefore we're, we're close to each other. I have some good news for you, Hala. It turns out that adversity is optional. We actually don't need shared suffering in order to bond. It's not the adversity that brings us closer together. It's the emotional intensity that we've experienced together. People end up, they end up bonding when they go through something that's emotionally evocative and transformational. So they feel deeply in the moment and then they come out. Just with a sense that I'm different or that experience has changed me. And you do not need suffering in order for people to get their hearts racing and in order to feel affected by an event. In fact, there's, there's research that's come out recently showing if you just go to a haunted house with someone, as long as you debrief the experience afterward and, and compare notes on your jump scares, it actually brings you closer together. Because your hearts are racing in unison.

So Adam, I close my show with 2 questions that I ask every single one of my guests. The first one is, what is one actionable thing our young and profiters can do today to become more profitable tomorrow?

I think the easy one is start reconnecting with your dormant ties. We talked about how enjoyable that can be, but it's also productive. On average, if you reach out to someone you used to know and you seek their professional advice, you actually get better information from them than if you contact somebody you're already currently in touch with, because your dormant ties have been traveling in different circles. They've been learning different things, meeting different people, and they can open up new opportunities and perspectives that you were missing.

And it's also like a great insurance policy. Like if you're keeping in touch with someone and then you really need their help, they're more likely to help you if you've been keeping in touch. Not that you haven't contacted them in 5 years and now suddenly you need a job or something. Exactly. And if you're ever

worried, like, I don't wanna impose on that person, or I don't want them to feel like I'm using them. Guess what? It's a great opportunity to send them a pebble or even tell them that you would like to add more value to the people in your life. Like, I'm trying to do more for others. I would love to find out what you need, what your challenges are, and try to help them out.

And my last question is, what is your secret to profiting in life?

Ooh,

you got a lot of secrets. It's hard. It's hard to pick one. I feel like that, that's your whole career.

I think here's what I would say on this, Hala. I think this is maybe one of the greatest ironies of life is the less focused you are on profiting from your interactions, the more profitable your interactions become. It's a paradox. Like if you, if you meet somebody and all you're doing is trying to figure out what can I get out of this interaction, it's going to end up feeling very transactional. If you converse with them, if you chat with them, if you sit down with them, and you're just genuinely interested in finding out who are they, what do they care about? What are they trying to achieve? How can you be supportive of them? You're gonna end up having a much more meaningful bond, and ideally that's gonna be more profitable for both of you.

Well, I love that one, especially for today's topic, and I'm sure we'll have you on many other times on this podcast, Adam. It's always a pleasure to have you on the show. Uh, before we go, where do you wanna send everybody? Where can everybody learn more about you and everything that you do?

I guess they could come to adamgrant.net and take the vibe Amazing.

We'll stick those links in the show notes. Adam, thank you so much for joining us on Young and Profiting Podcast.

Thank you, Hala. Always a pleasure.

Yeah, fam, I love meeting people, networking, bringing people together, but even I've walked into a room and thought, ugh, why are the vibes so awkward? And after talking to Adam, it turns out the vibes were directly related to the relationships I had with the people in the room. Maybe I didn't have pals or companions there. Which brings me to the main concept of today's conversation, Adam's 4 wavelengths of connection. And I wanted to quickly break them down for you guys because I think we can learn from them. First, we've got associates. They're people that we connect with because we've got a practical reason to. Maybe it's someone in our professional network, a vendor, or a neighbor that we exchange favors with. These are relationships that might not be personal, but they can still be really valuable. And then we've got pals. These are people we have fun with. We love grabbing dinner with them, working out, going to events, or sharing a good laugh. But just because somebody is a great person to hang out with doesn't mean they'll be the person you call during a crisis. And that's where companions come in. They're people that we connect with on a really deep level.

They're the ones we can open up to, turn to for emotional support when life gets difficult. But there's another wavelength that I think is especially important for entrepreneurs. Allies are the people we build with, we share goals with, and the people that show up for our common mission. And here's what I found so interesting: you can have an incredible business partner without becoming super close friends. You don't have to hang out with them every weekend or share every personal detail of your life to create something extraordinary together in business. And I think the biggest lesson here is that we get in trouble when we We expect every single relationship to give us everything. We expect our pals to be companions, our coworkers to become our friends, and sometimes we overlook the value of a great relationship simply because it doesn't look the way that we think it should. But as Adam explained, we actually need different kinds of connections in our lives to be truly happy. We need people we can have fun with, people we can build with, and people we can lean on. And expecting just one person to fulfill all those roles can put unnecessary pressure on that relationship.

So here's my challenge for you today. Think about the people in your life and the different roles they play. Who are your associates, your pals, your allies, and your companions? Do you have a frenemy that needs a conversation, a coworker that needs a stronger boundary, or perhaps you're ready to gather the courage to ask your favorite pal to become a companion? Because yeah, fam, the key to a profitable life is not focusing on how to profit from our relationships. But recognizing the value of different connections and knowing how to nurture each one. So maybe now is your sign to send that pebble to wake up one of your dormant contacts. And yeah, fam, if you wanna take this even further, I highly recommend you pick up Adam's new book, Vibe. He goes much deeper into the science of human connection and how to navigate our differences and create more meaningful connections in our personal and professional lives. Thank you so much to Adam Grant for joining us again today. Thank you. And if you listened, learned, and profited from this conversation, please share this episode. Drop us a comment, give us a 5-star review. And if you prefer to watch your podcast, you can always find us on YouTube, Spotify Video, or Apple Video.

You can also connect with me on Instagram and TikTok @YAPwithHala or LinkedIn. You can find me at Hala Taha. A huge thank you to my fabulous YAP team. You guys are incredible, the hardest working team in the business. This is your host, Hala Taha, AKA the Podcast Princess, signing off.