Transcript of Modernizing Government: Open Data, Innovation & the Future of AI with Natalia Olson | Shekhar Natarajan

I can create a party made of political agents that can do your job 10 times better.

I live in the world of logistics, which is a bunch of irrational people.

I don't think that you can run government as a business. We have an example right now.

It feels like the world has gotten even more polarized and more fragmented. Do you think that they can ever, like, glue them back together?

They brought in folks from the blockchain community, the Department of Justice, I started using it.

Welcome to yet another episode of Tomorrow Today with Shekhar Natrajan. This is our 50th episode. Natalie Olson, she's a celebrity. What makes this very, very special is she used to be Obama's innovation advisor and also managing very complex governmental policies and initiatives. Amazing person. And as I'm getting to know her, You know, it's been really refreshing to hear some of the thoughts. I wanna understand like, you know, the whole, you know, shift of open data and other things that you guys were like so instrumental building and kind of unpack your journey, your personal life, along with the professional career and what you're doing now. And wanna spend like the rest of 2 hours doing that.

Oh boy. Oh, so that's a fun, fun, fun ways to, to get into the conversation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, so you're a Latina.

Yeah.

And, um, and basically, like, you know, and then you grew up in the United States.

Around the world.

And around the world. Um, and you were sharing a little bit about the family and, like, you know, that your dad was building, um, like embassies around the world. Um, so tell me, like, It looks like government and like, you know, representation of government is like in your blood. And so, how did your early formative years create who you are as a person?

Well, I think what's important is the values of your family. And I always talk about my parents because my mom's Honduran American, my father is Norwegian American. And, you know, only in the US you can have such a diverse school getting together. But more than anything, it was the wonderful experience of my parents making us travel around the world, living in different countries, especially in countries that, you know, there was a lot of poverty. And we were— my mother made a point of us really understanding the country, understanding that, you know, that we were very fortunate by having just a, you know, home and education. And My mother, in Mexico City, which is 25 million people, she took us to the biggest landfill. It's a huge amount of trash and people. There's an entire village built out of trash. And she would say, this is how people live and you're so fortunate. And if you do not work hard enough, if you don't understand the value of work, I love working, then this is what happens. And, and, and we're very fortunate, so therefore we had to lend a hand. We always had to help people.

Uh, you don't, you know, remember, it works with part of your life. Yeah, yeah, this is really important. And both of my parents are just, uh, very giving and, and, you know, and taught us good things. Uh, and especially—

How did your father meet your mom?

In the Peace Corps.

Oh.

So my father, uh, is an architect, and, uh, he went down to Honduras and he built schools. And my mom was a young lawyer there, and they got married and still together. My father comes next week.

Shock the parents.

So yeah, and then we went back to the US. We actually, my dad had his own little company, The government— this was interesting. After the 2 bombings in Africa of our 2 US embassies there, the US government decided, when I was a kid, decided that we were going to rebuild all of our embassies. And my father was the only American architect that spoke Spanish well, had experience in LATAM. And so they hired him and said, you're going to go and build these embassies across Latin America. So I grew up in LATAM. in many countries, you know, from Kingston, Jamaica, you know, Ecuador, Venezuela, Mexico, Honduras. And so it's that experience I think that gets you to really understand what are the good things in life for you as a kid. And moving around helps you really adapt. You have to adapt really quickly because you have to make every, you know, 3 years you had to make new friends, you had to— understand the city, understand the different cultures, because I tell people that Venezuela and Mexico, very different. They, yes, they all speak Spanish, but very different histories, different ways of doing things. Um, and, and that's, that's exciting.

And, and so we really quickly adapted, and I think that has made me a stronger person, I think. And, and one that takes risks, because I think that, uh, it's a risk to, to just pop somewhere else and, and show up. Oh yeah.

So, and then like, you know, what was— what's your background, like your education, and like how did it actually like prepare you for the, the role that you were getting into?

Or, well, you know, um, I originally wanted to study, um, it's called— that's a new— it was a new type of engineering, uh, and it was urban systems engineering because I had seen, oh, a lot of the Poverty. Poverty and development and underdevelopment. Uh, I noticed there was this amazing, um, you know, plant that would take garbage and turn it into energy. And I thought that was the best thing in the world back, you know, late '80s. And, uh, I'm like, wow, we need this everywhere. This is something that— and then, um, I then I switched to economics because I thought from the policy perspective I can make more more of a difference because I was still moving very slow. And then I went and worked for the State Department in Hungary, Czech Republic, and Poland.

Right.

So I was based in Budapest. And this was when NATO, when the 3 acceding countries were becoming into the new club after communism. Very interesting time in Central Eastern Europe. And then I decided education is really important and that's the only thing my parents have said and that's the only thing they've given us. They're like, any inheritance that you have is education. That will pay for any, you know, but nothing else. So it's important that you take that education and you can transfer that knowledge and apply it. And so I went and worked, did a master's in regional and urban planning. So we, regional part is really important because we have to think of the region, not just of the city. And then I went and did a double MBA because I realized we need money to do big plans for the next 50, 100 years. And so, I really got into the financial part, into the logistics and transportation and infrastructure. And no one else wanted to do in my studios the transportation part of it, and I thought, this is how you move the world. You move the world this way.

That's why someone talks transportation, I'm so excited.

So, so yeah, and so I decided, okay, let's, uh, let's, let's study and apply it, study and apply it. I mean, you always have to be learning, uh, and be able to, to really think. And, and urban planning is wonderful from a theoretical perspective, uh, and it's great plans, um, but it needs, uh, the action-driven part of it.

Yeah, yeah.

So, so it's important to plan for the next 50, 100 years, but many times, you know, as you know, there are policies and our budgets don't accommodate that. And, and people have to understand that the citizens are at the center, that the citizens should be involved in all this planning. And so I think that what drove me to do the business side of things was citizens are, you know, their taxpayer money is being used for this, but they're not being asked. This is how I brought technology into this conversation because it was all back then in design, figuring out how to build the scenario, the visual part of things. Um, and so I really just, I think, learning and taking every opportunity to learn from other people. And so I, I pushed a lot of our urban planning students and our real estate finance students to work together. So the first class that I went to in real estate at the Wharton said, uh, the urban planner is the enemy of the real estate. I was like, excuse me? And so, it was wonderful to have professors and people that believe in you, and then they're like, no, you're right.

And I go, you have to work together. So, it's always been that collaborative, and I'm very pushy. I'm a charming nagger.

No, no, no. I think like you're a beautiful person. So, boy, like you had a range of experiences when it comes to education, right? Like, you know, urban planning and— MBA and then logistics and, uh, regional urban planning, uh, finance, you know, um, bringing all of that together. So why did you not go into strategy consulting or, uh, capital, like, you know, venture capital planning? And because that's such a traditional route for a Wharton graduate.

Yeah.

Or go to the Big 4, you know, McKinsey and Bain and—

Yep. All those Big 4.

Yeah.

It's not exciting. I mean, I just—

You didn't like it, huh?

No, no. And, you know, I was just— didn't— it didn't trigger something for me. I really wanted to understand and help the financial part of the community, you know. So a lot of my colleagues went to the big companies and, and that's great experience. It's excellent experience. They do it for 2 years and you go into another big company and so on. But I thought, okay, I can do more if I build something myself as well. And then you create an opportunity for others to build and you become a role model. I think one thing that my parents always said, you have to be an example and an example because there's so many people that don't have what you have, and being a role model and helping people. So, when I started my company, my first company out of the master's, people were like, that's never gonna work. And I'm like, no, but it will have to, it has to work. At least the idea is planted that we can look at green economy, that we can look at technology for good, for the greater good. Wow, this was 2005 before we were using BlackBerrys, and not even that.

And so, the first application comes out and it was all in Philadelphia, and, you know, it was on transportation and logistics and just the fact that buses, the buses were, you know, I want to use public infrastructure. I want to use the bus and the metro, highly underutilized because something so simple as they were so late all the time.

Yeah.

And, uh, and I worked for the Metropolitan Planning Organization, which in the US is where the, the funding goes through, uh, for all transportation dollars. Uh, and for the first time, uh, they realized that the whole air quality, uh, was not only based on, on shipping and, and rail, it was literally based on access to mobility, access to where you would have to get, you know, buses and metros and everything to reduce, uh, you know, commuting and so on. And so, it's really using the data in the best way possible to alleviate air quality problems. And so, they were starting— so, there was good policy that said, okay, region New Jersey, you know, and Pennsylvania, you can't— you won't get any transportation dollars if you don't create projects to minimize and to reduce the bad things in the air quality.

Hmm. So you're not one of those, like, let's kill sustainability person?

And what?

Like, I used to have, like, someone who used to work with me in PepsiCo, you know, like, and like, I could hear, like, that rumbling even then. Right? This is like 2007 and '08. And I used to, because I used to work in Pepsi, like, I lived in Dun Boring, which is Danbury, and then in Ridgefield. Oh boy.

Yeah.

And so a lot of interesting people, and they would say like, you know, what climate change? It's snowing more.

It's amazing to me.

And this was 2007 and '08. And I'm sitting and listening to them. I'm like, okay, we're going to have trouble in the future because these people who basically think climate change is not real, there are more and more probably out there. Their voices are very silent. There is going to be some sort of Renaissance moment which is going to happen. And then, yes, we did have one. So it was interesting.

Well, believe me, it's— so I've, you know, you mentioned earlier those people that have an influence in you and can make you pivot or meet at certain crossroads. It's important for us to value that. So I, you know, during My master's, even though I had lots of classes, I worked at a restaurant.

Yeah.

Uh, it was great, down Chestnut Street, Capital Grill. It was perfect. I was a hostess. Um, and I met, uh, everyone, all the council people, the mayor, and all those people. And I met one that not— no one thought that would become mayor. And then he saw how hard I worked, and then I was actually presenting to him my studio on the waterfront plan. that when he won, Michael Nutter, he said, I want the Planning Commission and Zoning Commission to be the strongest one. And then he saw Mayor Daley in Chicago with his green roof. And so Michael was like, we're gonna do that. And then he put— he nominated this— according to Philly people, I was a foreigner. I'm like, I have a home here. I went to school. But, so I was on the zoning, I was the vice chair of the zoning commission. So, we had to redo the zoning code. It hadn't been done since Kevin Bacon. That's Kevin Bacon, Ed Bacon, Kevin Bacon's dad. Yeah. Yes. A very famous planner that changed a lot the way Philadelphia is designed. So, So those people gave me the ability, and this is a volunteer job.

This is not like they're paying you. And a lot of people were really upset that this woman is the very powerful commissioner out of the blue, and I had just graduated a couple years before. And I said, everything has to be green. But it's when you put the horse before the cart, But we didn't have the infrastructure. But I said, I'm not gonna approve anything that is not up to LEED standards.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and the developers were so pissed off. And I had this gentleman come up to me and said, my granddaughter won't get into my Cadillac because of you. And she thinks that I'm killing polar bears. And, um, and I was like, well, in 10 years, I, your granddaughter's gonna be able to vote. And that's what really made me, you know, be more resilient on that. Because if the children, if the young kids are really to this and, and we'll make a stand of not getting into Grandpa's Cadillac. And then he had to go buy a Prius. So that in itself creates an economic shift.

Yeah.

And so, you know, that gave me hope of, of really moving the needle on that. And so, uh, that really helped me understand better that, I mean, I had come from Hungary and I could get, we could get 3 countries to talk to each other, But we couldn't get New Jersey and Pennsylvania to share water data.

Yeah, I know. Like, that's crazy, right? Like, so see, this is why, um, so I, I live in the world of, uh, logistics, which is a bunch of irrational people, right? Uh, I always wondered, and like, that was my, you know, if you go back and play the history of all the things that I did, um, it was always around, uh, last mile optimization. The last mile for Coke and Pepsi ended at the store. It's a DSD model, like direct store delivery. The last mile for Walt Disney Company, particularly, like, you know, if you strip away all the entertainment business and other things, is the theme park. So basically MagicBand experience was connecting the last mile experience back to— so that's my, one of my inventions.

Yes.

And then Walmart was basically unlocking the grocery delivery model. And at that time, what happened was like we were putting tri-temp trucks on the road to actually make grocery deliveries, which is a Webvan model, which is not going to work. And the company went defunct.

Exactly.

And we were trying to replicate that whole like silly thing again all over. And we were wondering why we were not making money. I said, it's not going to make money. We're going to put like 5 deliveries, send it in the same neighborhood like 5 times, and you think you're going to make money? Like, it's not going to happen. Like, why don't you put it in the trunk of a car? They said I was like crazy. They literally thought this guy is out of, out of like, you know, some banana republic and he's going to sink Walmart's stock. But, we persevered and we got it done. I got the Deliv deal done and then we got the Lyft deal done and then finally went back to Uber and we got the Uber deal done and then we launched it and then it became an instant success. And now, we don't even process when a car comes and delivers to your door. It's just natural to you. But the parcel delivery world, Natalie, when I think about it, right, you have a FedEx, a UPS, a USPS, an Amazon, OnTrack, right? All these guys show up at the door and they're all delivering while the most efficient last mile in your house is the water and the gas, which is by one supplier, though there are many distributors.

Exactly.

So, we don't think about consolidation and sharing of the assets and data because the marginal utility cost of the same— of a second package delivered to the same door is only $0.50.

Mm-hmm.

So, in a geography, if I'm delivering packages, why am I not basically almost thinking like redistricting, like one last-mile provider, just like you would have one water provider? And that would be so much more efficient, right? And so that was my hypothesis of how I got into what I did with American Eagle. And then, like, you know, I came out and tried to do the same thing out. But what I found is, boy, these logistics guys, they love control.

Yes.

It's like control, because it's all— I think it's all military.

I think it's It's because they've always done it that way. The same way. And it's also because, so for me, because I love infrastructure, I would literally get into this room full of like 15 men that were just, that they were happy when I brought them cigars from Honduras. That's a type of guy. The only thing you're missing here is like, some whiskey. And I was going, I have to get you guys to understand that if we create a pathway, a biking pathway that would cross over Conrail, that this is something good for both sides. But they just were so adamant. It took so long and taxpayer money to pass things, so simple things like that. The logistics, uh, I think, uh, environment has been controlled. And if you look at shipping, it's controlled by like, what, 12 companies?

Yeah.

Around the world. So if you look at that hierarchy, like you said, it's very controlling. And not until very recently, because of policy, Europe, for example, it passed a law that all shipping has to report on the climate footprint. And part of this in order for them to get licenses and many other things. So It takes policy and law to move them to move the needle and move in on things like that. But they are very stubborn and it's very defensive if you think about it. A lot of that innovation does grow, it is born in military and defense thinking.

Yeah.

Because a lot of the innovation came out of that, right? And mobility and all that.

Yeah.

So it is, and that's where you have to slowly, you cannot You cannot change people completely in one time. You have to nurture that. You have to show them little by little because if not, they're just going to get resistant to you. But if you give a little bit and show them how it is in their best interest, then yes. But it takes time. It takes a lot of time.

But it's the same sort of like people who use the postal as the last mile provider, as a consolidator.

Exactly. Remember when the post office used to be the—

Yeah, the consolidator, right? So the consolidation model works and they thought and they found out that's the most efficient thing to do. And unless and until you could do doorstop matching, which kind of changes the volume allocation. But the thing that baffles me about logistics is that whole Like closed networks, closed pipes, no data sharing, no information sharing, and almost like thinking that like, you know, world's resources are mine, I need to control. You know, that thing like really like it gets me like all irked up.

Well, remember when for the big cargo, you know, the containers used to come full and then leave empty?

Yeah.

What are you doing? And we've always done it that way. I'm like, what on earth?

Yeah.

So that was my favorite, one of my— it was, you know, the New York, uh, um, port was closing down, so it was moving down to New Jersey and Pennsylvania. So the deep— remember the deep, uh, make our ports deeper, um, and our ships just get getting bigger and, and they can't get through. Uh, this was hilarious to me. Uh, but yeah, it's, it's, um, I think that one point that I think is really important is for people to— they forget where and how and, and the, the journey that that particular item goes through in order to get to your home. And people complain it's only a couple days late.

Yeah.

Now I want to remind people that, believe me, this— you're so amazingly lucky, uh, that For me, the impact is, I think in the future, this is going to be huge. People are going to start, and they've already started. I mean, years ago, we tried to do something on, you know, a QR code on all the food cans and where it was coming from and so on.

The GS1. Yeah.

And so, people understand the amazing climate impact that it takes to get that one product to you and all the work and logistics. The last mile has been always a part of our urban idea of access, right? And, the last mile, I think it was developed in a lot of small countries because it was easier.

And, almost like all these developing nations have actually leapfrogged the thinking, and we are almost stuck in the Stone Ages. It feels like we are in the dial-up age when these guys are using cell phones.

Yes, yes, yes.

So, it's like—

We have our legacy systems in the US are still really old in a lot of developing countries around the world, and I've seen it. It's just, I go, necessity, when you don't have something, this innovation comes out of this necessity.

Yeah.

And just great ideas that have completely helped us leapfrog new things. And so, I just feel that we can learn a lot from outside the US a lot. I learned a lot here in Spain just by, you know, people trying to figure out how to move things along in a faster way.

So, I wanted to get to that point because like, you know, you somehow, not somehow, I think like you prepared yourself for it. How did you get into Obama's like inner circle and how did that happen?

No, we're a very big team. Well, not big team actually. We are, you know, the appointees and we go through a process and everything. But the how actually was because in Philadelphia, right at the beginning, I mean, I did campaign.

For Obama?

For Obama.

What did you like about Obama that you just—

Community organizer.

He was a community organizer.

And you know, it was, he came from very diverse parents, just like my parents.

So that's resonated quite a bit.

Yeah, you relate to that. And, you know, he's an incredibly smart man. And I was in this small meeting thing. We were— 5 of the different agencies came to speak about what the White House was gonna do. And so I stood up and I asked a question and I provided a solution. And so they said, why don't you come and join us?

Yeah.

And so it worked. I'm like, okay. And I didn't know that that was the deal. So literally, that's because I stood up and I said— because people tend to ask questions and criticize. If you're gonna ask a question or we're getting criticized, you had to provide a solution.

Yeah.

You know, it just doesn't— you just don't expect, uh, the, you know, because they're new politicians in a way. They get— all these people became my friends because we were all coming from very diverse backgrounds and a lot of them in technology. And so that inspired me to really see that there might be change because at the same time we were in a recession, right? The worst recession in the last 100 years. And I thought, okay, we need to look at it in a different way. And I just want to remind folks that this particular team was created by Congress. It's under the COMPETE Act. So we have to compete in order for us to understand what innovation is too. Really important. We were in that situation, right? The American Reinvestment Act, we had to rebuild, so we went into infrastructure to go and rebuild so we can create jobs as well. And so it was all this rebuilding and figuring out how to, and And a lot of, a few of us that were, you know, in the urban space, urban planning space, got together and we created the first urban office in the White House.

Wow.

Yeah, so this, you know, these ideas reflected that the administration and Barack Obama was really keen on this. The first law, the first legislation he passed was the Lilly Ledbetter Act, which has helped women you know, get to that pay, which there was a huge gap. And so those are the things I think that build citizens to really trust government. Very, very tough times. No one knew, people criticized, of course they criticized Obama all the time.

Even like after like 8 years.

That's right. It's amazing. I was like, That Iran deal was pretty well done back then.

Yeah, we just undid it and then paid a little bit more.

I know. So, it was the idea of giving back that first phase. And then several folks left because our appointee teams, our presidential administration teams, We lasted the longest. Usually people just stay for a couple years, and several of us stayed for a longer time because it takes time.

Mm-hmm.

You can't just do 2 years. But, you know, people like Irvin Jacobs who started Qualcomm, you know, he has other things to do. Um, and so there's, there's, uh, that responsibility of, okay, I'll stay behind, I'll, I'll go ahead and, and, and I went to work for the SBA. So I decided, okay, we're gonna go ahead and move. We had to move on the SMEs. We really have to. It's, um, the small businesses are the backbone of countries.

Yeah.

You have to help these businesses. So, so I said, they offered me transportation and I said, no, no, we're gonna, the business side. Um, so, uh, it was then because of my languages, I went around speaking about what, you know, the SBA had done and what we had done as innovate— as innovation advisors. And this is how I went around the world talking about what we had done.

Mm-hmm.

And what didn't work. A lot of stuff don't, does, does not work. But that's the fun part of learning, especially when you come into a government that has old legacy systems that hadn't been updated. Our government was still using computers from like 20, 30 years old. And that was a really good reflection of, you have to build inside the trust and you have to empower the civil employees. to really do more in that sense. So innovation is driven not only by one person or 2 people or 10, it's driven internally. You have to empower these people.

So very fantastic story. So you covered like a breadth of things, like, but was there something while you, because, you know, I remember that time when like Hillary Clinton and like Obama were running neck and neck.

Yeah.

Um, and was there a point when you thought like, you know, Obama is probably not going to be the president, or were you always sure that he's going to be the president? Like, was like—

A very good question. Um, I honestly, I wanted to see a woman, uh, be a president, and I've been on all the campaigns. I've been on the Hillary campaign, I've been on the— but the second one, after she was Secretary of in the Kamala campaign. Um, no, I really, even though I, I thought, wow, we have 2 amazing leaders, uh, but I know my country and I know, I knew that they weren't ready for a woman president yet, unfortunately.

Uh, but you're sure that they were gonna like elect like an African American?

Yeah. Yeah. Male before female.

Yeah.

It would have been, but he's half white, half I mean, it's different in that sense. But also, Barack was— the idea of hope, he's such a great orator.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's unbelievable. I still get goosebumps when I— I still do because he's so good at that. And it worked out in the sense of bringing people that were going through this awful recession You know, also giving people this idea of, of that someone like him could become president, you know. And that gives you this idea of like, this could happen, this would make our country better.

I think that was the best innovation first.

Yes.

Before you became the innovation officer. So yeah, um, I think it It was like, for me, it was the most wonderful moment because I remember I just literally got married. And me and my wife, she just came into the country, like in 2007 is when we got married. And basically the election got wrapped up in November. So she came in September and we were just watching glued to the television that night. And I literally had tears in my eyes, like, boy, because it's an immigrant, right?

Yeah, he's a foreigner. He's the son of an immigrant.

Yeah, like you just like watch this moment and like, you know, it gives you a lot of courage and hope, right? Like in terms of like, you know, where the world could go. So what was it like to actually work in his administration?

It was tough. It was really tough. We came with a lot of illusions, right? A lot of hope to do a lot of things, but we met a lot of resistance.

Was it democratic?

At the beginning, the first 2 years, both houses, and then it switched to the Republican and Democrat. Like it's one, not both houses, but one was a Republican, the Senate became—

But why was there internal resistance?

Not internal resistance within the teams. It's because you have to remember that these are 800, 900 people in the different— because it's the secretaries, the administrators, the advisors that change, right? The rest is all civil employees, and there's a few million of them, which actually make things run really well. So there's always resistance.

So you don't believe in like all that axing and other things that was happening with DOJ?

No. We have a— we compare—

if you—

this is one of the criticisms of Spain is if you compare, and it's— we have a small government. We do. Uh, here in Spain is like 22% of people work in the government.

Wow.

That's a lot of people. And, uh, in the US it's like not even 2%. And so that's still a big number, but not a big number. But, um, You know, the, the— it's hilarious because we asked for— so within the law, there's, there's— you have to create a strategic plan. Each state has to do a strategic plan, right? This was something kind of new. Uh, and so, uh, Pennsylvania gave me a 180-page strategic plan, and Virginia gave me a 1-page strategic plan. You're like, hmm. So, uh, the idea of trying to move things, you have to, you know, first get that— the, the infrastructure. That's where the infrastructure has to work in order for you to mobilize things, right? Uh, so yeah, it, it— and it was silly. There was a lot of racism, uh, in, in my country, unfortunately, in our country, and Anything that we would take like Republican ideas and say, okay, this sounds great, let's do it. And because it was forwarded by an Obama administration, it was saying no. I'm like, really? One of the biggest, I think the toughest was the Affordable Care Act.

Yeah, it's still live.

It's still, things like that. You know, the idea of renewables, the idea of electric vehicles, the idea of NASA, of improving systems. You know, we went, which is, I can't recommend it enough. So hackers, right? Hackers are thought of evil or something, but no, they're wonderful. And so we did all these hackathons. And so Obama, the team would go to all these states and do these hackathons and then bring these ideas and challenged them, challenged the different departments and agencies to put out small grants to come and fix problems of the Health Department, of the Defense Department, of Commerce. And these young companies could solve it in 72 hours, which would have taken a year going through the normal way of doing things. So bringing these, um, kind of helped us push more, but, but it was a little bit out of the context of how to do it in the— because you had to think of other ways that, that, um, allowed us, right? Because if sometimes legislation and what, what it does and policies that have been in place for 30 years, it just slows the process down.

So do you think like, you know, government should be run like a business?

I don't think so. I don't think that you can run government as a business. We have an example right now of that doesn't work. There's very different ways to run governments, and you want business acumen, you want that knowledge, which is really important, but you have to have the balance of understanding that it's not a business, You cannot fire people or do things because it is a democratic process. And a democratic process means you have to reason, that you have to be collaborative, that this is not— you don't pass because you're the boss, you just pass whatever you want. Doesn't work that way. In a business, yes, it's up to the boss in many ways, but a good leader surrounds themselves with better people than themselves, and then they make that decision. And so governments are very different. You cannot— this is, let's say, not employees. They're not employees. They are the government.

They're representatives of—

Yeah, don't serve the people. So it's very different. It's like serving your customers in a way, but but not really. So no, I just, I think that you do have to have good business perspective and it's good to have that as a background, but you cannot run it. No.

But would you think about the principles of business to be applied?

Absolutely. Absolutely. There's great principles that, you know, just efficiency. Just make it, I'll tell you a story that, so our employees, our civil employees would take about 30% of their time would be inserting what they did during the day, you know, the numbers and, and so on, instead of being able to use the technology in order to just say it and it'll be put in, and then you don't have to spend less than 2%. And we did that, uh, and people were so thankful because then they didn't— they could spend their doing their job, not doing, you know, inputting all this into antiquated process.

Mm-hmm.

Systems, right? So yeah, there's ways to do this in a more efficient manner, and that is more of the business side of things. So when I was a regional planner under the Metropolitan Planning Organization, billions of dollars were being decided as to where the money was going, Uh, based on, on paper surveys. And so I, I called SurveyMonkey. It was used to be a little company back in Palo Alto. Uh, this was 2007, and it just started. It was— so I said, look, uh, can we do this? And so on. And but the, the, the, let's say, the policy people thought it was very strange to do online, uh, surveys by SurveyMonkey. So I call them, I go, can we say like very tiny over here, powered by— oh yes, of course. Like, yeah, I should have invested in that company, but I didn't have money back then. So I got out of 100— so billions of dollars based on 150, you know, 150 responses. And just from the first one, I got 5,500 responses. Just by being able to use the business perspective, we changed the policy and we figured out how to better invest that money based on real input.

But it took a lot of pushing and, you know, moving and moving. And so you, we need that, that expertise, I think, to, to make things efficient. But it's not, but, but you also have to, you have to balance the power of, of, of of what democratic processes are, uh, why election and why you voted and why this, this animal, uh, which is, you know, very well structured. I think our constitution is the longest constitution in the world. It's a working document, but it, it works.

So, uh, World Bank and the development, like, you know, how did that happen for you?

Well, a lot of the institutions like the World Bank, IMF, all the development banks are in Washington, D.C.

Got it.

And they're funded by, in a big part, by the US government, a big percentage of it. And the mantra, you know what the World Bank is supposed to do? It's supposed to reduce poverty, but it doesn't do that.

It doesn't do it well.

And so, uh, no, this was an era of entrepreneurs, right? We will— and so the administration said, no, you have to— programs have to be, you know, related to entrepreneurship because we can't keep giving the fish, we have to teach them how to fish.

Yeah.

Uh, so it was very— it was very different, and it actually caused a lot of shift, and people were upset. in the— in those institutions, but they realize that they need to do this, that, you know, you can't keep giving money, you have to empower. Like, excellent example, right? Africa has been, uh, just, you know, so many countries have, have gone through such bad, uh, conflicts and so on. And look at Rwanda today, because Rwanda now is like, we're gonna take these projects, we're gonna take the financing, and we're gonna go ahead and figure out how to commercialize and, and move this through a more entrepreneurial Who would've known when I was in college the genocide that happened there, and then today what you see today? So those policies at the World Bank needed to shift. And so it became a COVID— right before COVID as well, no one was doing anything because they thought, we can't do anything. And well, yes, you can do it. You can use the technology. That's how I learned how to do every virtual, you know, visual thing that was possible, um, to— for us to do more of these virtual calls.

And I'm, you know, I should have invested in that too.

Yeah.

But see, I can do all these things and then I don't invest. I'm like, wow. Um, but it was, uh, it was that time period that, that the World Bank needed, uh, more on the entrepreneurial, moving capital in a different way, uh, being more aware that, that, um, countries wanted not to, to, to— wanted to be respected as well and wanted to, to be part of the conversation. So, wow.

Yeah, what a— what an amazing experience.

So, um, and it was mostly because I was criticizing them. Yeah, that's right. I'm like, you're not reducing poverty.

Wow.

And their teams keep getting bigger, and there's thousands of people that are sitting around them going, hmm. So, you gotta, you know, you gotta push them. And also on the metrics, really moving the metrics side to things, really important.

So, you are the pioneer in a lot of things like, open data, collaborative economy, um, and also stuff related to, uh, like, you know, bringing like new policies in place, whether it's an infrastructure, whether like, you know, now World Bank, as you talked about. Like, how did you go about doing all of this? Like, you know, it's like so— like, is it not exhausting? Like, you know, when you try to do this, that people like wear you down and then—

Yeah, they can wear you down, but you don't let My grandfather would say, uh, an insult is like a gift that you don't accept. So, uh, yeah, of course it's very tough when people keep telling you no and it's not possible. But you know why I have— I think I've been at the forefront? Because I'm very good at observing and understanding, uh, human nature. But, and you start seeing shifts in small groups of people that, that are starting to do things a little different, and you're like, wow, this might go somewhere. Uh, and you look at it from— if that— it's the, it's the domino effect. So if that changes, then more things will be changing, and then people will start doing different— the way— different things. Um, you know, the green economy, it was a big one. Uh, I was in China Yeah. And I really just was amazed at how China had been building and growing. And of course, the big argument back then was, no, there's no pollution. You're like, really? And I saw it in a way that I thought, okay, we really have to move things here because if China is not doing it in a way that is more sustainable, we're gonna have a big problem.

Problem, yeah.

Yeah, and so, and Van Jones started this and a lot of us got on board and was like, okay, we're gonna move this. And so I used my position as a planning and zoning commissioner to do that and move part of the procurement process. Now, if you buy greener, you know, projects, products, then you give a 5%, you have a 5% priority. So, you know, on the blockchain, like for me, it was, is the idea, maybe this, this is why, because of the, the balance between policy and business, the idea that blockchain could create more transparency.

Transparency.

Yeah. Uh, I was like, wow, this is, I can make government more transparent. Uh, this is, and so they looked at me like I was crazy.

Crazy.

Yeah, absolutely crazy. But, but I brought in folks in the blockchain community. The Department of Justice started using it, which is, you know, to do a lot of the traceability of properties that had been overtaken by el narcotráfico in 3 countries in Central America. And so, you know, you're able to use that in order for that transparency. But But yeah, no, I just, I had banks call me going, what is this blockchain thing? What is this crypto? Back in 2015. And they were just upset. I was a lot of, I'm like, this is where we're going. You don't understand.

Yeah, it's coming to you.

There's 2 billion unbankable people and the phone is giving, and it's already given them a a part that we can open up. Uh, and, and, and OpenGov— I mean, the whole idea of OpenGov, which was driven by journalists— it wasn't driven by tech people, it was driven by journalists to open up the information. And that drove the entire ability of data that created a sharing economy. Remember back then, banks weren't lending. So if you had $5 or, you know, some, some amount you could actually put it towards an entrepreneur or a project. You were liberating the funding that people, you know, little by little. And that's how Uber, Airbnb, TaskRabbit, all these, you know, companies— who would've thought that you would get into someone's, you know, car or stay at someone's? But back then you could have, you know, the people, they brought— it was a bad economy. People didn't have jobs. I knew so many real estate agents that they started driving Uber and they made more money doing Uber than they did in real estate because the whole real estate industry had gone down. So you're like, wow, you give an opportunity. So yeah, I don't remember what the question was, but—

No, so you had like, you had done a lot of things basically. You'd done open data.

Yeah.

So tell me like, what was open data? Is it OpenGov?

It's OpenGov, yeah.

Yeah. So it's just transparency related.

It's transparency related.

And then the collaborative sharing economy was primarily like creating like shared like assets and resources and data.

So, but remember that, I don't, yeah, I guess a lot of people don't remember this, but a lot of this information, the geopolitical, like the geolocation defense used to say that this is top secret.

Yeah.

So they had closed, they said no. But when you open that up, then cars and transactions can happen. So it's important that you start looking at the necessity of people, and that if you have a chest full of stuff that is closed and you can't open it and figure out how to work with it, then that's inefficiency. And, you know, we— of course, you always have people saying no to everything, but, uh, believe me, when the banks— they were very institutional, wonderful people, but, um, they, they would be like, wow, this, this company who we, we refused a loan, refused a loan, and then they realized this company raised $300,000. them from the crowdfunding.

Yeah.

And then they were like, okay, no, you're bankable now. You're like, really? Um, so that type of like friction. And then, and it was always just const— I think the friction of people telling you no, uh, gives you this idea of like, no, there has to be a possibility. And maybe that's very American or something like that, I don't know. But for me, it was like, there has to— there always is a way to do things. So the banks say, no, we have no comp— we don't have, you know, because minority companies, if the SBA funding has to go, when the law was passed in the JOBS Act, we increased that 23% of everything that the US government buys has to come from a small business. within it, women-owned companies, minority-owned companies, veteran-owned companies, and underutilized HUBZones. Um, and that takes time, uh, and it takes effort, but that means, you know, a US government spends a trillion or so a year. That means that 23% of that goes to that small business.

Wow.

Now, that in itself creates a huge trigger of innovative ideas, Uh, and you move the needle on that. You take that, come— because that is not grants, this is contracts. And those contracts give— it can— a company can go from a couple employees to 200 employees with just a couple simple government contracts.

Wow.

So it's— and I've been talking about that in Europe for a long time.

Yeah.

I'm still— they're still not even at 1%. But it's a great way to really use the government as a catalyzer of change.

So, in all of this, there is probably cost of being, like the cost that, like it costed you something.

Oh yeah, I have 2 divorces. It's fine. I'm not rich, so that's fine. But it's, but I've enjoyed it tremendously. No, it has.

So how do you go through that? Like, you know, like, it must be tough, right? Like, for you personally to, like, experience that at the personal level, and then professionally you're still, like, focused on the country and, like, how to serve the country better. Um, and a lot of people actually go through this. Like, you know, I, I find that, uh, uh, women who are extremely talented and most charismatic, um, are very exciting from the outside, but like sometimes, like, you know, people feel insecure, and that causes a lot of friction in the family and other things as well. So, of course, so it's a very common story. So how do you deal with a scenario like this?

Well, I'm very fortunate that, you know, my parents have always been very supportive of my decisions, so that's always good. Um, I have made great friends. Uh, I think that you have to build your community of that support system. Uh, yes, many times you feel completely alone, uh, especially when your company fails and, and you're like, where do I go from here?

Yeah.

Um, but that failure actually makes you stronger too. You learn a lot. Uh, I have very thick skin now. I am not afraid of asking for anything. Like, I am— if I had to beg, it's all right. I'm okay.

Yeah.

If I had to, it really teaches you resiliency. So no, I jump at the opportunity to get onto an airspace, to climb a mountain, to go diving with sharks. I took my staff onto an aircraft carrier. So you get launched out and launched back in. I was the first one to go, I'll go. So if I'm gonna die, I might as well do dying doing something fun. And if things are gonna go bad, might as well do it with your choice of doing things. But, you know, I'm— I've lost a lot of fear, uh, because I've gone up and down, and I just feel like I am very fortunate still to have my education. And— You're very resilient, and I think you have— you feel very Yeah, well, what, you know, what makes you self-assured are the people that believe in you and that they say, look, she helped me out, uh, and they talk about you and they say, oh no, she was very helpful, she inspired me to do this, uh, and I, I get that every day. Every day someone leaves a comment or, or tell me, thank you for helping me.

And that in itself, I just, I believe very much in those ladders of opportunity. Uh, you can fall down, but, you know, climbing those ladders and have— helping others climb as well, uh, you build a really strong community that I know that that creates a net, you know. And there are some bad people, of course, in the world, um, but they forget exactly how that you help them in any particular way. That's kind of— This is like this, like, yes. So you don't, you don't I don't stay in that. That takes away energy from me. And so, I don't rally in that. I'm like, okay, bye.

So, there's all these tensions, right? Like privacy versus how much you could make it open, technology, how much you wanna govern and how much you wanna give as innovation. How do you think about those structures?

You mean a different, like from a personal and—

Generally, like, you know, like even how a government perceives all these things. Like, you know, let's take AI as an example, right? Like, you know, there's a EU act here, but there's nothing in United States and it's sort of like a wild, wild west.

Yes.

And it seems very eerie similar. We haven't learned our lessons.

No, this is what I admire about Europe though. I will, there's 2 good sides and there's something that's always a bad side, But they do care and they do make an effort of protecting the citizenry. We, on the other hand, in the US, will go and build something and then we'll figure it out and we'll regulate it after. But also that regulating, that's overregulating in Europe hasn't allowed for a lot of companies to be like born in a bigger way compared to what we have done, right? But it's also new here, this idea of of going out there and using technology for good and also protecting people. Yes, it is in the Wild West in the US, but it will come about. And if you see this recent legislation of protecting young kids and figuring this out, that's where I see a lot of opportunity. I think that the young generation, I call— I started this whole thing of the teen economy. There's a lot of power. It's not just them, you know, socializing. It's the teen economy has a lot to give. Uh, and I think that future, when it comes to that conversation, you will have to listen to all of the different, uh, you know, rising people.

The silver economy— I think the silver and the teen economy should talk to each other more. Um, and I, and I, and I feel like that is where my heart is. I think that when I talk about all these structures that I've been involved in, uh, I feel it's, it's a generational thing too. It's, it's how do we get people to really really collaborate and talk to each other and learn from each other.

AI, what about AI?

And AI is a tool that we will use to make things more efficient, absolutely. I think AI, we've been using AI since the '80s.

Yes.

A long time. I've been speaking about AI for many, many years. The post office was the first one to use AI to recognize our handwriting. Now it's more available to people, and that's fine. It's what— when the internet came out, that's another wonderful tool. It is going to create— it's much faster, and it's gonna create a shift. And I, you know, I was speaking in front of a bunch of politicians, and I said, look, I can create a party made of political agents that can do your job 10 times better. Do we really want that to happen? Are you guys going to get, you know, going and start being more efficient? Because it's coming. Uh, and I feel like, like AI will be a tool that is here to stay, and it will— and, and you shouldn't fear it. You have to really figure out how to work with it.

Yeah.

And that— and then into our earlier conversation, the value part.

Yeah.

Because a lot of people are afraid of that, afraid of just this is gonna create all these other jobs. When— I remember when 3D printing, I had to go around to Congress and tell them that I can create a hip replacement with 3D printing, that they would be— they would feel 20 years younger, because they thought that 3D printing was gonna take away all the manufacturing jobs.

Jobs, yeah.

So it is how you use it for good. But you also have to explain it very well to the citizens. And I think that, you know, you have more experience as well. I used it from a logistic perspective. In logistics, this will definitely make it—

Very efficient coordination-wise. Yes, absolutely. So, but it is largely ungoverned autonomy. And so people talk about trust in AI But when they talk about trust, they talk about like data security, guardrails, all of those things, but not necessarily like how are you gonna create a governed autonomy? Exactly.

I think the governance side of things. I will tell you that I met the first digital minister of the UK back in, it was 2017, '16, '17, and yet then we talked about creating a United Nations agency, a global, on AI. This was already conversations that, and it still hasn't happened. So, 10 years ago. So, I think that this, because it touches so many realms and so many industries and countries, this has to happen.

Absolutely.

And I'm, just like the SDGs, I mean, who would've known that in 2015 we would be able to pass a framework? We couldn't pass that since, you know, 1992 of the Rio Accord. It wasn't possible. But why was it possible in 2015? Because the businesses were at the table. 50% of the participants, because I was there, was businesses. So, I think, and it created this framework, and I think there has to be a global framework on AI.

You think there needs to be one?

Yeah.

Yeah. Like, so how, like, you know, I've been sort of a victim of all this war and other things, like, you know, So, we were actively fundraising, and then, and I was talking to regions where the value-based thinking is like something which would resonate, which is like Middle East and other places, right? Like Far East.

Mm-hmm.

And Latin America, like Europe and other places. And after the war, everything has changed because everyone is now saying, I wanna have my own sovereign infrastructure, my sovereign data center, my sovereign data models, Sovereign, sovereign, sovereign. And they want to be anti-America altogether. Yes, every day I think about this. Yeah, it feels like the world has gotten even more polarized and more fragmented. Do you think that they can ever glue them back together? Is the trust already lost in all of the actions that we have actually taken so far?

I think it's a reactive approach right now because of our wonderful president.

Yeah.

So, you know, for the first time, let's look at it from when you talk about war, I talk about like World War II, and there's been peace in Europe. It's perfect because Europe is the one that's sovereign, sovereign, sovereign right now, and so is China. But you have to understand that all of the infrastructure was built a long time ago in the US. So there's a wonderful company, we have OpenAI, We have Anthropic, and now we have Mistral that came out of France. Everyone's like, oh, it's a French company. 95% of it is American.

Yeah.

Sorry. So I'm like, it's on the American cloud. It was American investment. It was American. So they're still far away from that. But, you know, if we were able to pass bilateral agreements on trade, bilateral agreements on health and FDA and patenting, we were able to do that. that because we had good leadership and we didn't antagonize people. Uh, then that's, that's, it's a reactive approach. It's just that, and it's good to be proud of, of, and it's good for the, for the new businesses that are coming out of Europe and China and, uh, and around the world because they are going to grow based on the fact that it's, it's, it's a competed competing, you know, they need to compete. They need to help them. They've been too reliant on American innovation and funding. So now it's like, you know, the lighter is being sparked. I've seen it. I've seen the history of it. I've seen it. And I think that they will realize that the sovereign idea has to be done in a way that—

More cohesive.

More cohesive. And there's agreement.

Because you cannot simply pull out like dependence of a Google, you know, cloud and/or a Microsoft Azure cloud. and, you know, AWS. Like, it's like the infrastructure is too intricately connected that, like, you know, you cannot untangle geopolitically.

Yeah.

It's not like trade. Like, you know, you cannot say, like, let me shut down the sourcing from here and move it to there.

No, I love it when they're, like, sending campaigns of, you know, let's not use American technology. And I'm like, how are you sending that?

Yeah. I'm sorry.

So it's, it's, it's, it's always like, you know, trying to do the right thing and so on, and then that's appreciated. But, but it takes the infrastructure, uh, to build it, and it takes, like I said, 70 years before we did this, uh, here they're starting recently.

So what about the world that like makes you like really jumpy and afraid now?

Right now?

Yeah, a little.

Part of the world, Middle East. I mean, that's, that's a, uh, right now it's a tough one. You know, you never thought that— this is when you don't think about policies and decisions, that you go and you bomb in, you know, a country and think that you can just, you know, take over or something. This— what I'm afraid of is the amount of, of of resources that goes through the Strait of Hormuz, that people didn't think of the fertilizers and the farming costs and how that relates to food increases. And that relates to a lot of poor countries where they cannot access this. So making stupid mistakes without understanding the global impact is really, really key. And I think that's— I feel awful because these countries, UAE, Saudi, Qatar, they have worked so hard to build and build trust and attract people. And now—

Everyone is running away.

Everyone is running away. And it's unfortunate because they've been trying to diversify their portfolio. They've been working really hard on renewables and other things. And like, why, why, why, why, why? And it's going to turn back the clock on that.

A lot of things.

A lot of things.

Yeah. I think like I'm afraid of that too. I feel like just like we had 2015 and the radical change that we saw, we would end up probably having something globally, at global scale, given what is happening right now. Everyone is going to get into that mode. And when people feel very— when they start developing hatred, then bad things start to happen.

Yeah.

I'm just simply worried like for my 6-year-old.

Yeah, no, that's it. And that's why people are going to Mars.

Can I get a ticket too? 2047.

Yeah, there's a lot of satellites, there's a lot of rockets. But no, it's— this is what's Let's say not great, but the opportunity to see that these type of things that happened have an impact and has a reflection that you start really questioning, do I want to live in, in here? Do I want to just— and this, this already started with COVID Remember the whole nomad idea of people going off to Bahamas and living in the middle of nowhere and, uh, creating, you know, because you can access the internet, you can work from anywhere. Uh, But there's ways that we cannot just escape. We have to get involved to make a change. And so that's my biggest concern is this, because it affects the entire Europe, Africa, Middle East. I mean—

Everywhere.

Everywhere. You know, everywhere. So it's—

Gas prices have just like skyrocketed everywhere.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

No, that, that domino effect, uh, really can ruin companies or can ruin people, and it's just not, not good. Yeah.

So how do you measure your life when you think about like innovation?

Oh, that's a good question. Uh, measure my life, I feel like if I have changed the paradigm, if I have changed, uh, something that has created good results and everything, then I feel like innovation has been there. It doesn't have to be huge things. It can be very small things. And I think the friction that you have when trying to make a decision whether to push or not, that in my life, I like friction. I like discussions. I don't like for people to agree with me because 'Cause I, I believe very much I will agree to disagree with you, but let's have a sound discussion where we actually learn from each other.

Yeah.

And I think that's the core of innovation is this, this, this divergence of ideas, thinking outside the box, but respecting each other. Uh, and, and I just, I measure my life on that. If I have been able to really change a few things, I'm, I think I've done a good job.

Fantastic. I really enjoyed the conversation. I'll just do the rapid fire. I know it's getting late. It's getting late for you. I just want to be mindful of that. Uh, we just have like 10 questions.

That's it. Sure.

Yeah. Open data in one word?

Access.

Access. Government doing technology best right now?

Uh, government, I think Estonia.

Estonia.

I think Estonia is doing really good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I was in Davos and they, like, they were like really Like, all like young kids, like, you know, running their country. They're all like 30 years old. Yeah, yeah. Um, blockchain.

Small countries.

Country, yeah, exactly. Like, and they— and like, you know, and I was also, uh, in Luxembourg. Yes, feels very similar.

Yes, very similar.

Very similar, very similar.

They've been really innovative in the, in the, in the legal tech.

Yeah. Uh, blockchain, overhyped or under-implemented?

I think it's under-implemented. Got it.

Um, regulation Europe got right that US got wrong?

Health.

Silicon Valley in one word?

Ah, capital.

The most overrated innovation of the last decade?

Oh my God. Uh, wow. Overrated. I can't tell you because it'll—

It's okay.

Digital twins. And again, sometimes it's, it's like, should we have done that? Should we not? It's just, it's, it's a great— but anyway, I'm not gonna go too deep.

The most underrated city for innovation right now?

Oh boy, I think Washington, D.C., unfortunately.

The startup that is, uh, going to matter most in the next 5 years?

Startup? Um, I, one particular, no. I think the, the startups and the energy, uh, reducing of, of our, you know, access to, to energy from our database GPU power and everything. It's just one that looks like Nvidia, but it's again, the, the baby version from the energy perspective. Yeah.

The startup that is going to matter— oh yeah, we are done with AI. And democracy, is it a friend or a threat?

It's a friend.

AI and democracy?

Yeah, I think AI, it will help people be more informed.

Okay, good. Yeah. Uh, the SDG that is farthest behind?

Poverty.

Poverty. The political leader going most with technology right now?

The political year? Yeah.

Wow.

I think 2012 for me. You mean the year that triggered a lot? 2012. Yeah.

And the political leader doing the most technology right now?

Oh.

Who's most savvy in tech?

Yeah, I understand. I'm just trying to think of a name. I don't know my English.

Modi.

Modi is good. Modi is good.

I mean, he's smart.

Yeah, very smart guy. So, um, I mean, I mean, Modi and Xi Jinping, I mean, it's— they're— India and China are doing amazing.

Washington, D.C. or Silicon Valley?

Um, now Silicon Valley. I love my capital, but it's just, it's, it's tougher.

Yeah. Obama year you remember the most?

Obama?

Year that you remember the most, which year?

Uh, 2012.

Of administration?

2012, because no one believed that he would get—

Reelected?

Reelected.

Yeah, that was a good one, actually. Yeah. The most powerful thing any government can do with technology today.

Use it for the better, use it for the people.

Well, Natalie, it was like amazing pleasure to actually sit down and talk to you. I really loved it.

Oh, wonderful. Thank you for inviting me. I really enjoyed it. It was very nice to meet you.

Yeah, it is very, very— it's beautiful to meet you. So, you live in Silicon Valley too, huh?

Yeah, Palo Alto.

Okay. I live in San Ramón.

Yeah. No, it's, uh, I spent this past year and a half, I've spent more time here.

Got it.

Oh yeah.

Got it.

Wow. Mine too. I love my country, but you know, it's, it's better here. It's better in Europe right now. And Spain is amazing. Amazing place to live.

Should I also hibernate?

Yeah, more than welcome. You should see how many Americans are moving over here. Many, many folks are moving here.

That's great.

That's great.

So thank you so much for your time.

No, thank you. Yeah, awesome.