Transcript of Karma, Enlightenment & the Wisdom Beyond the Mind | Shyalpa Rinpoche | Shekhar Natarajan

Always make sure you give others to win. Make sure you always take the loss.

I've actually given like speeches bare feet in large conferences, and people find it extraordinarily strange.

And I used to joke and say, Italian only knows how to eat tomato. That's all they know how to be. I didn't like it, right? I didn't like it.

And doing the right thing is also subjective. Like, you know, doing the right thing for me is different than doing the right thing for you. But, and then we have to exhibit moral coherence.

And he had to sort of like boil his own leather shoe. Tibetan traditional leather shoe. And he, he had to soak this in the water and then boil it and had to eat as a food.

Welcome to another episode of Tomorrow Today with Shaker Natarajan. First, I got like a couple of big announcements to make. We officially reached 1 million subscribers on the show. We just launched the show about like 4 months ago, and it has taken off like wildfire. And today, like, you know, we also have about 50 million views on the show. So, the incredible love that people have been showing is truly fascinating, you know, because the whole essence of thinking about humanity and how technology will impact humanity in the future and our readiness to that has been resonating quite a lot. So, we are incredibly thankful to the audience. for the subscribers, for all the love, and keep spreading the message. This is also the 25th episode that we are shooting today, and I have been trying to chase you down, His Eminence Shelpa Rinpoche, for almost like, I think like 4 months now. I saw you in Davos, I was inspired by your speech, and ever since I've been trying to basically find like some way to connect with you. And I know that you've been traveling all over the world spreading the message of peace.

So it's an incredible honor for me to finally record, and this is the 25th episode, and we are super excited about this. Welcome to the show.

Thank you very much for having me here, and I'm sorry it took so long to find me, but now You get to be around me all the time.

Yes. So, and it is also an incredible honor to have you be part of the journey of what we are building. And I know that like, you know, I'm excited to be part of the journey that you are like trying to go. And we are going to unpack all of this in this show. Truly excited about what we're going to talk. So let's start from the very beginning, His Eminence. So you were born in a refugee camp in Tibet to parents, and you have basically like, what did that refugee camp give you that still continues to be there in your life? Like, what was that moment of being there in the refugee camp, being born there, and kind of what experiences have you carried from there on?

Yes, a little bit, a small correction. I was born in the Himalayas as a young child. And as I was growing up, one very interesting thing is that my parents had to learn completely new language. They are in a completely new setting.

So where are they from?

And they're from Tibet.

Tibet.

They're from Tibet. Then later from Himalayas, from Nepal, they moved to India as well. So as I was raised in India and Nepal, we felt that somehow human beings are capable of adapting to any given situations. So more you challenge yourself, or more circumstances or situation challenge you, I think there is a great strength in humanity where they are able to face it and overcome it. So today what I remember very, very meaningfully is that even though you are no longer in Tibet, we are able to Have the culture, tradition, language, spiritual training that we otherwise would have in Tibet. So in a way, we are able to preserve this in such a way today because within this Tibetan language, Tibetan culture, Tibetan Buddhism, entire teaching of Buddhists, entire teaching of Buddha, is available today more than anywhere else. Used to be available in Sanskrit, but no longer is available in Sanskrit. So no other languages carries this much teaching, hundreds of volumes of teachings of the Buddha, which is so precious. And we are able to learn from a very young age, 4, 5 years old. So I feel very, very fortunate, very, very in a meaningful to be born in this family, which is a family, is completely a spiritual family, very much devoted, devout Buddhist family.

Thank you for this wonderful, beautiful gift that you have given me, His Eminence. Tell me more about this. I'm so curious now.

It is my great pleasure to greet you with this Katha. Katha is a Tibetan word. This is the way we greet everyone in our tradition. So this greeting is very, very special because this brings auspiciousness in your first meeting. Also, there's a practical reason behind it. In high Himalayas, and because of the weather and altitude, Flowers are not easy to find. And so this also represents flower.

Wow.

In a beautiful way. So this is whether we greet a very, very high enlightened master or just a friend or a colleague or a business partner, we always offer khata when we first greet them.

Oh, thank you so much. This is like, it's truly an honor to have this.

It's my pleasure.

And like excited to be part of the board that you're building as well. Truly honored to be part of it, the World Peace Board. So you were born in exile in the Himalayas. So your parents actually came from Tibet to Himalayas. So tell me a little bit about that whole journey of your parents, your birth, and what did that refugee camp give you?

It's very, very Unfortunate that my parents had to escape and had to leave Tibet hometown. On the way, they have endured so much pain and suffering. Especially, I was told that my father, he escaped from Tibet, only child from his family.

Mm-hmm.

Family did not leave, but he left. On the way, he had to cross the Himalayan pass and snow mountains, rugged terrains. And he ran out of little food that he was able to carry himself. So on the way, halfway through, he could not find anything to eat.

Hmm.

And he had to sort of like boil his own leather shoe. Tibetan traditional leather shoe. And he had to soak this in the water and then boil it and had to eat as a food.

Wow.

Of course, the leather did not digest, could not digest. So he almost died halfway through. And then my grandparents, they rescued him and they were—

Your mother's side?

Other side, mother's side rescued him and And then slowly, slowly he recovered and came to exile. And however, you know, they're such a strong spiritual family. When they were in exile, they are not having any kind of like a, so like a negativity towards what they have experienced. Rather, they understand is their karma. Rather, they understood is something that they had to endure and they have to deal with it.

Hmm.

Instead of revenging in certain ways, they are able to have compassion. And the way to have compassion is they try to preserve and protect the culture, language, and tradition by leading me and others of my age into You know, like spiritual training and education and everything that they have given to us is kind of very, very impressive because they could not speak Nepali language or Hindi language or any other languages they are able to face there. They can only speak Tibetan at that time. But at the same time, they are able to survive in a very, very meaningful way today. So out of all refugees, Tibetan refugees are the most vibrant, most sophisticated refugees who are able to preserve and protect Tibetan culture, Tibetan language, Tibetan Buddhism. And not only that, Tibetans are all over the world today sharing the message of peace, message of compassion, and the wisdom of Buddha. This is quite a, quite a feat.

Quite a feat too. So tell me a little bit about like, you know, Tibet itself. Like what, what, what are the struggles of Tibet?

Tibet is one of the most beautiful place on this earth. Highest plateau in the world. Of course, sometimes it's not easy for us to breathe because thin air creates altitude sickness for some people. But for Tibetan, Tibet is like a heaven. It's known as Snowland and Paradise of Buddha of Compassion. It's very interesting for me because Tibet and this very difficult terrain and high altitude and snow mountains and a very cold and harsh situation, Tibetans were able to bring the most meaningful thing in Tibet in 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th centuries, Buddhism.

Buddhism.

Buddha's teaching from Nalanda, Vikramashila, and from India. So today Tibet is very, very special place because Tibetans are able to apply this teaching. The outside external harsh reality is easily related with inside wisdom and Realizations they're able to obtain from the blessing of Buddha's teachings. So example, for instance, there is one practice in our tradition called tummo.

Tummo.

Heat practice. So in that snow-capped mountain, a meditator can stay in the cave or outside the cave, and all the snow around him will melt. So no snow will be near him as he was practicing in that place.

Wow.

So this is like a quality, no? I mean, that is like how I see Tibetans because, and this is why patience and compassion and understanding of Tibetans is spreading everywhere beautifully with great many and Buddhist leaders in our tradition. So I think today, a way when I talk about Tibet, and I said, you must go to Tibet at least once in your life. But of course, acclimation is very important. So don't go there rushing and everything. But once you go there, people are able to live with very little, very happily.

Hmm.

And people are really good hosts and hostesses. they will never treat you like a stranger. And that is a quality I see in the Himalayas, which is very unique for many people. So today, wherever I travel around the world, no matter where it is, I'm always received with smile and kindness and bow to me because they recognize, oh, he's from Tibet. Yeah.

So why was your father exiled? Why did he escape? Tibet? Like what was going on?

In 1950s, there was a Cultural Revolution, Chinese, you know, communists at that time. And I had like a fight with the Tibetans there. And some Tibetans, I think 100,000 or more Tibetans were not able to relate to that and had to escape because of the invasion.

Including Dalai Lama.

Including Dalai Lama at that time. And so my parents even came a little bit before that, so they came almost like the same time. And so they had to escape. And then there was a big, all over China, and a big Cultural Revolution, and many, many destructions happened. So this is the main reason why they escaped in Tibet.

And like, so the people of Tibet are able to still hold on to the original system of values, though there is—

Yes. Tibetan system, there's no such thing as Tibetan system separate from teaching of Buddha. Buddha. So Tibetan system is completely decorated with the essence of Buddha's teaching, love, compassion, generosity, patience, and moral conducts and understanding and so on and so forth. If there is no Buddha's teaching, you can say there's no Tibetan culture. So it's very, very interesting in that way. So today, more than ever, Tibetans in exile as well as in Tibet, they are completely enjoying their culture and tradition because it is treasured from all over the world and people from all over the world. So it's very, very interesting in a sense that I wish, you know, everybody is able to embrace wisdom culture all over the world. And it doesn't matter whether it's for Tibetan or whoever, the wisdom culture which comes with the compassion is something that we all should be able to treasure it and apply it so that our lives will enrich beyond imagination. Very good.

So you were born in the, the refugee camp. Um, and then at the age 4, like someone comes and says, you know, hey, your son is meant for a higher purpose. He comes from a, a different lineage of Allah and like he's reincarnated, uh, soul and we need to take him down the path of spirituality. We need to start teaching him the ancient wisdom, the philosophies, and like you are the anointed one. Uh, the in— you know, the, uh, incarnated one. What was really that moment like? Like for your mom, your father, for yourself as a child? Because you're a 4-year-old. I know my 4-year-old started just like barely blabbering at that time, you know, like he started like creating conversations with us. So what was going at that time in your family?

It's very interesting. My family, as I said, very spiritually—

Evolved.

Practicing and spiritually involved family from Tibet. So as they are in exile, I was born and then I supposed to have visited a temple with my grandmother.

At age 4?

Even younger.

Even younger.

Even younger. And so, and at that time, and they found me folded my hand when I reached the temple with my grandmother. So they took it as a very good sign. You know, maybe accidentally I did this. I don't know what happened. But so they found me doing this mudra. Respect mudra. And of course, this also very meaningful because in our tradition, this symbolizes the wisdom, this symbolizes compassion, and wisdom and compassion inseparability is the way we say namaste and we say pranam, as we bow to the temple and things like that. So I'm sure they have this very deep meaning. In their mind. So their infant doing this in front of temple as I reached the door, they took it as a good sign.

Hmm.

Imaginable because they are spiritual people, they're in this tradition and they really honors this kind of gestures and this kind of behaviors because it's beautiful behaviors in their tradition. So then after a while, of course, they took care of me as a child probably. And 2 great elderly, you know, sort of a master. And they're supposed to have told my grandparents that this child is a very special child and you guys should protect this child and don't get in dirty, don't, you know, it's like always keep it very pure and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So from there onwards, so I was like recognized as something they should really hold onto very closely and must be giving me more opportunity to really train in this tradition. So that was like how it happened, it seems to me. And then later on, as I was a little bit older and in our tradition and as a reincarnate, child, we have to go through rigorous training, rigorous training morning.

How did they identify you as a reincarnate child?

So these 2 masters, you know, who have identified me as a, uh, so like a special child. And this, there's many ways to recognize reincarnated, uh, child. But my one is like, supposedly these 2 great person from our village at that time supposed to have told my grandfather and grandmother, this is a special person. This is how it is recognized. And there's other though, tradition is sometimes like a child himself will say, oh, I am the reincarnation of such and such. As soon as they open mouth, they're able to say that. That is another way. And another way is also they have like a 20, 30, very special child, and their names are put in the vase, and then they pick one.

Mm-hmm.

And who is considered the reincarnation. So there are many, many, you know, ways that conducted in our tradition. But the most important thing is that in our tradition, what I've found is that there is that demand, you know, there is this devotion and respect for such. reincarnated master, because many reincarnated masters in the past have performed well, so to speak, because they carry on the tradition and so wonderfully and serve humanity and serve their own village and temple and so on and so forth. So there's huge, so like a demand for it.

Mm-hmm.

So this is how I think our culture and tradition is very well preserved. Because purity is intact in this tradition. So this is how—

Is not all life reincarnated in general?

Yeah, absolutely. Actually, I always said this, either you are a reincarnation of the butterfly or that buffalo, or you never know, you know? Yeah. So you are, but in this tradition, it is institutionalized as, okay.

So you're a master.

Master.

And then lama, that's lama and reincarnate, right?

So We make this into an institution, right? So institutionalized way is Tibetan reincarnated way. Otherwise, who is not reincarnation? And we all have Buddha nature, enlightened quality. So whether we are ant or whether we are a human being, we have that Buddha nature, right? Ant can be reborn as a human so that we will be having more possibilities for enlightenment than being as ant, right? So I think, yeah, absolutely in the reincarnation of all souls. All souls.

So like, you know, I believe in this, you know, in this whole tradition of everything in your life, you think you are absolutely like, you know, the master of, but, you know, I feel like you're really, you've chosen your contract in life. This is what you wanted. You've been reincarnated into this life to perform certain activities, whether it is, you know, seeking certain goals in life. And everything in my life has been, I feel like subconsciously they appear at the right times. Like whether it is, I come, You know, I was born in like very humble family, like in slums. And people have shown up in my life at different times, coming into my life, helping me at different moments. And when I look back at it, they're like miracles, like God has performed in my life.

Right?

And I feel like, you know, these are all contractual. Like me meeting you, having the discussion with you. Um, and you thinking about like absolute intelligence and I'm working on angelic intelligence. That's like God's way of saying like the 2 bodies have to connect and basically have to like, you know, so do you believe in that theory in this philosophy or like, am I the only guy who thinks about it?

No, as you said earlier, when we are in the living room there, it is karma. You know, I think definitely This is not something you and I only decides. There is a cause and effect.

Hmm.

So there are many things that are not easily we can define, but it's happening. So cause and effect is the key because as long as we have this physical body, as long as we are living in this world, we are bound by karma. No matter who you are, you're bound by karma. unless you are able to find complete liberation in this very moment to be able to enjoy total validity of this reality in front of us. So in a sense, absolutely, it's not something that we alone create. Karma is happening all the time. And it is very important to realize that Nobody is going to be able to measure the sort of varieties of karma and depth of karma. Can you imagine right now, as you and I'm talking here in this beautiful studio in Hyderabad, countless karmas are happening. We cannot even imagine. So this is the limitation that we have. We are only able to see the karma in front of us. Can you imagine what's happening right now? Even in Hyderabad city itself, so many sufferings, so many upheavals, so many happiness. So like countless things are happening. So if you think about that way, really, I mean, we are not really able to really enjoy anything, not even a 0.00000%age of happiness.

in our life is not what we are able to experience. So it's really, really profound to know that and act according to meticulous way of abiding by the law of karma. Absolutely right. So I was talking about AI and AI as I gave talk in Stanford and other places. And Everybody knows AI, the first one, and say, okay, it's artificial intelligence. Then it's like, okay, this is an AI and AI, what is another AI? So then I explained and I talked about another AI, which is absolute intelligence, right? So I was talking this for the last 2 years. I'm sure you are also planning of angelic intelligence for quite some time. And then we meet in Davos and we had little interaction there and we are connecting. And now here we are together, meeting the minds and meeting the heart and meeting the visions and absolute intelligence and angelic intelligence. This is karma. This is so like supposed to happen, supposed to be there. And I did not put much effort in making this happen. I'm sure you did not put that much effort to make it happen, but it's happening.

It's happening.

So it's like, it's so beautiful when we realize everything is karma and we, if we are able to believe in karma, that doesn't mean that we leave everything to karma. It's not like that. So I think we see how limited we are by not knowing the law of karma. And we are only bound in this small world. Where what comes in our head and what is in front of us, who we are relating, instead of being able to recognize the workings of karma. So when we see the workings of karma, I feel somewhat responsibility to truly help everyone, whoever needs whatever kinds of help.

Hmm.

But if you cannot help, Make sure we realize we have no right to hurt anyone. So this is very important because moment you hurt anyone, you're hurting yourself.

Mm.

But you're not believing in the karma. You're not believing in the cause and effect. And cause and effect, your result is absolutely certain. Nobody can escape. from the result of karma? No one, as long as there is mind. Of course, if it's a rock, there's no karma for the rock. True, true.

So now let's go back to the, uh, the 4-year-old again for a second. And, um, so, you know, a 4-year-old craves for a lot of things, playing, uh, enjoying, climbing trees, like falling from the tree, right? Hanging upside down, like having favorite food. But you had to give up all of that and practice philosophy, religion, you know, the ways of life, deeper understanding of meaning of life, and seek like excellence of mind. so to say, right? Did you ever have, like, you know, at the age 4, 10, 20, 25, 40, whatever it was, did you ever feel like, I want to be that other child who's like playful, who wants to do this? Did your mind crave for that?

Definitely. Because when I was studying as a young boy, my peers, And I see from my window, they're playing soccer.

Hmm.

They're playing football and they're running around, they're playing. And I just say, wow, they're having a great time. They're having a great time. So I was bound there. My grandparents and my teacher were there to train me. And I used to say, oh, I have to go to pee, you know? So in 1 hour I have to go to many pees. That is a way for me to get out there and to at least say hello to them and just kick one ball or something like that. But then I have to rush back because my grandparents were expecting me to run and study. So my grandmother especially, she's a very, very kind lady, very, very strong lady. Amazing how she is. For me, she never learned Tibetan alphabet even. She doesn't know how to read, but she can recite prayers for 1, 2 hours in memory.

Wow.

Okay? So this is just like how And she never had the education to go to school or anything. She was the housewife and she was looking after the animals and Tibet and so on and so forth. She's so strong and she's so strong. She was really focusing on my study because now she believes that I am the reincarnation, right? Because someone told her that. So she felt responsibility, but she's a very spiritual person. And she will be very tough on me. So, okay, come back. It's your time to study. Don't fool around with those kids. You are different. And I come back and I have to study. Not necessarily I'm very happy with that. Right? Then when I go to school and she have saved 25 paisa and 50 paisa, all this thing. Then she will put in a box and give it to me. Okay, you go and take this now. So all this time she was very tough on me. Study, work, and study, study, study. She's making me do it. But when I'm going to school, then she has this connection with me and say, here, you take this. So, so skillful and so loving and so caring, a real selfless person.

And what did you do with that 25 paisa?

Of course, that's a lot of money. We can buy lots of, lots of chewing gums and balloons and all these things. At that time, 25 paisa is like today, maybe 1,000 rupees, you know? So we are very happy and used to—

And you used to spend them on balloons and all that stuff?

Yeah, like whatever kids like, you know, they have jammeru, like, yeah, to come with this kind of small things. We used to buy them, but normally all the kids, they have toys. And I never had toys. My toys are bell and damaru and bell and bajra and things like that, because that's what I had to use and train myself. So I used to say that, you know, you guys are lucky to have Barbie doll as your toy. And I never had Barbie. I had bell and damaru as my toy.

The power of memorization. I will give you, There was something which very strange that happened to me. So, I used to travel quite a lot when I was in my early days of my career. Like, you know, when I was working for PepsiCo, I used to be on the road. And then every other weekend I used to go visit like this mentor. He was 92 at the age when I met him. He was the founding father of industrial engineering. And I would go spend like the Saturday, Sunday, Friday evening, Saturday, Sunday with him. learning about how to think about the space, like the whole industry itself, the practice of industrial engineering. And I learned it from the master, right? So, my wife used to basically get very bored and she would say, you know, I want to go visit my mom and dad. And so, she would go away for like 2, 2 and a half months because I'm traveling so much, right? And then every night I used to play Vishnu Sahasranamam, right? And, uh, I never knew a single word of it. Never. Like, I've, like, sometimes I, like, you know, I've heard it, like, when I was young, but I've never, like, I've never learned it, so to say.

And, uh, but I used to play this all the time in the night. And one day I wake up and I know every, like, bit of it.

Uh-huh.

And so much so that, like, you know, and I used to listen to a certain way of reciting it. And I was able to recite exactly the same way that was recited every day because I was playing that every night. And while I was sleeping and I would like, you know, subconsciously my mind like kind of like heard it. And, you know, I started like, I can recite Vishnu Sahasranamam like without like anything. So, but I cannot do any other thing. I cannot recite any other thing. So like when you talked about your grandmother, right? That power of memorization and God's gift of like you trying to recall subconsciously what is already embedded in you.

Yeah.

It's such a beautiful thing. How do you invoke that sort of inner, like latent capability of yours?

I think it's mainly your will and conviction. Now, if I think about my grandmother at a very young age, how she was in Tibet, there's no recording to play.

She keeps hearing it all the time.

Maybe her mother or father praying as she was a child, maybe. And then can you imagine they have to go after yaks and goats and sheep? They have to look after all these animals. And parents, they're not there all the time to train your youngster, right? And maybe their parents are praying in the morning or whatever. I cannot imagine how she is able to memorize more than even I am able to memorize today. I can read very well, I can write very well, and I was trained in that way. But the way she was able to memorize is really strong will.

Hmm.

And the conviction where she felt Prayer is the answer. So she was praying and she wanted to pray. She learned to pray, right? So mainly, you know, like for you similarly, you know, instead of listening to any Mozart or like a rock and roll or any songs or anything, you are able to have that as one of the most important priority for you in the evening, you know, as you are able to listen, right? So That connection creates everything. So I think not only about the memorizing prayers, and that applies to everything. Once you have a real conviction and when you are totally convinced that this is it, I think we are able to have the real power over everything.

Hmm.

And we are able to have memory, we are able to overcome anything that we I wish to overcome. And I feel that there's nothing that we cannot overcome once you have that strong will and commitment and a way to integrate in whatever thing we need to face.

So you went from reading the spiritual philosophies and everything, and then you went to Varanasi?

Yes.

And then you went to school there, to Varanasi. And you were a very bright student. You did extremely well there. You were also the youth leader, very vibrant.

True.

So tell me a little bit of that journey. And then like walk me into the journey of the fish release.

Yes.

Because that is a very interesting story.

You know, it's very interesting that I was born with a silver spoon in the mouth, so to speak, in a spiritual training.

Hmm.

You know, as you mentioned, I was raised from a very young child as a privileged child because I have given this opportunity to be trained in that way. So then I excelled a little bit when I was studying. And I was able to always, whenever there— I hate examinations, by the way. I hate the examination. I don't like examination at all. Whenever the examination comes, I say, look, there must be a way to— I don't have to do this.

Yeah.

So, but anyway, whenever there was examination, either I was number 1 or number 2 or number 3. So I never failed from getting one of those 3 positions. Always, even when I have examinations, night before the examinations, I used to feel that I know more than my teacher knows. Because teacher probably don't have all those memorized, all this studied. I very good and I can write tomorrow whatever question comes. But of course, it's still I don't like it. I don't like the examination and nobody should have to attend examinations, I feel.

Really?

And nobody shouldn't, because that doesn't justify who you are. So this is just like a grading. I don't think nobody needs to be graded in that way. I think, which is again, disrespect to our human intelligence, I feel. By the way, anyway, so I was there studying and then My grandparents, they say, okay, you have to marry now because you are the lineage holder of our family. You have to marry and tell me, who do you want to marry? And we will ask to give her hand. So my grandfather was quite adamant, he must be married. I was like 14 and 15. And I said, you know, please, you know, don't, you know, make me marry anybody right now. I want to have further study. So then at the age of 15, and I was granted to go to study in Varanasi. And then when I reached there, there's about 60 students who needs to compete for the position. So there's only 40 students can be admitted. There are 60 students. So we have to do the examination again, which I don't like. So when I had to attend the examination, so we did attend.

And actually I have one another friend from our village came with me. So I was number 1. He was number 2, so we automatically got—

Selected.

Selected. So it was, that was a relief. And also then in Varanasi, I stayed 7 years and studying Tibetan language, Buddhist philosophy, and Sanskrit, Hindi, English, and things like that. So 7 years then I spent studying Buddhist philosophy.

What is the name of the school?

Central Institute of Tibetan Studies, that's called Central Higher Studies of Tibetan Institute or something like that. Now it's called Central Tibetan University.

Very good. And so, so you went there, you studied for 7 years.

Yes.

And then like, talk to me about the fish release.

Oh yeah.

It's a life-changing moment.

Yeah. In between that 7 years, around my 5th or 6th year, my parents both got very, very ill because of the village situation. And my mother was in one hospital, a very, very, you know, Poor hospital, but still is a hospital. And again, 5, 6 kilometers away from my father was in another hospital. I was studying in Varanasi, so they both get sick and my father was in a coma and my mother also sort of like cannot sense herself and both are In a bedridden and almost dying.

What was your age at that time?

I must be 20, around there, maybe, maybe something like that.

And your grandparents were still alive?

Grandparents were alive and still alive. And so that's in a very sad situation. Then I came from the school and went to see both of my parents and I was the eldest child, so I had to take care of the family matters.

Mm-hmm.

And we have very little resources because both parents were sick and they have used most of the resources and very little money left. And I have many younger brothers and sisters. Now we did all the pujas there is to do, all the sadhanas, all the rituals we have done and nothing happened. And all the medicines that we You know, gave them from hospital and nothing helped them. So our villagers, you know, 2, 3 villagers in my mother's hospital, 2, 3 villagers in my father's hospital, they're ready to come, whoever come first to send me the message that, okay, one is dead and another's dead. So they're there to inform me. So that much like a desperate situation it was. So I realized, We have a tradition where we liberate fish or any animals. So who's almost there near the butcher to kill. If we liberate them, we believe that our life will be also expanded by that good karma. So you get it from the market, release it back into the rivers and back in the sea, or you buy animals and a goat and whatever you release in the jungle and things like that.

I have a little bit of money and I wanted to do whatever I can to save them. My auntie and some of our relatives, they say, oh, please don't do that because if you do that and you will have nothing left to survive. You have grandparents here and you have your younger children and how can you survive? And they're going to die anyway. There's no hope. So don't do it. So they advised that desperately. So I said, well, you know, these are my parents, you know? I mean, I am alive here. If I don't do something, they're not capable of doing anything. When I wasn't capable as an infant, they raised me and they make me here today alive, right? They're not capable right now. If I don't do it, who will do it? So I have this deep love and compassion towards my parents. I said, whatever happens, happens. It'll happen. So Around 10,000-15,000 rupees there was, and I sent to my neighbor and said, please go to the town and liberate fish as soon as possible. And he was very kind. He was willing to go in a bus, 3 hours in the bus, you have to reach there.

And he went there and he released the fish. And from that very night, my mother was able to sleep. My father was able to wake up from the coma. Slowly, slowly, slowly, then they are able to recover from their sickness. And I was so lucky. My mother is still alive today and she is in New York with my sister and my brother. My father just passed away a few years ago and he lived until his 70s. So for many years I feel You know, when you have compassion to liberate someone's life, compassion does work. You know, that unconditional love does work because I was able to enjoy them. They were able to enjoy their life. And this is a very, very good experience because no one is more important than their own life. And no life is less important. Right? So if you are able to free that animal, that animal life is as important. Therefore, you recognize your life. So this karma is there when you are able to really relate in a very natural and a pure way. And especially when you are desperate in a tougher situation, best thing is believe in karma, And believe in compassion that overcomes.

Super story. So tell me like how you met Chhatral, like, you know, Rinpoche, like how did you meet him?

Yes. Then, then after that, uh, when I was in the university, uh, His Holiness, uh, Chhatral Rinpoche, uh, came to Varanasi.

Tell me who he is. Like, you know, like everyone should know who he is.

His Holiness Chödrön Rinpoche is my principal teacher. And he is a Buddha in person for me. And he is very, very well-known master in the Himalayas. Actually, in the 20th and 21st century, he is the guru of all the gurus.

Hmm.

In all over Himalaya. And he was an ascetic yogi. And he—

So the Kshetral came from—

Kshetral came from that. Ascetic, meaning ksha means activity of any samsaric activity or ordinary activity. Tral means free, freedom from all ignorant ways of being. So he was not involved in ordinary ways of being. He's mostly in the mountains and forests and caves, whole life. And he lived until 105 years old.

Wow.

But when I met him and he was in Varanasi to liberate fish, and every year he, thereon he buys like 80, 90 truckloads of fish and throws in the river. River Ganges. So at that time, it was kind of beginning of this, his journey of doing this charitable activity. So he came to Varanasi and I had opportunity to serve him. I was the leader in the university and I was sent to help him, assist him. So I assist him to carry fish and throw in the river. And at that time, it was first time I was able to have the greatest honor to meet this great master who gave me so much blessing and teachings and transmissions.

So he became your guru and he trained you?

Yes. Then there onwards, and I studied with him from the preliminary practice to all the Highest tantric teachings to the ultimate Dzogchen lineage empowerment. I myself studied under 17 great masters.

17 masters.

Masters in my life. And I consider him as one of the most profound masters who was ever to really take the challenge in accepting me as his Disciple.

So tell me, like, uh, Dzogchen, what does that mean? Like, and like, you know, his, his full name is Chhatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche.

Yes.

So, um, what does that all mean? Like, you know, like, is, is there, is there a significance to that name?

And yeah. And Chhatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche is, uh, one of the most respected Dzogchen masters in Tibetan Buddhism or Himalayan Buddhism. And his name is, Chathal means carefree, living without agendas. Sangye means one who is awakened from the sleep of ignorance and able to illuminate the wisdom mind. And Dorje means who achieved that indestructible confidence in being.

Wow.

So Rinpoche means precious one. That is what we add to our teacher's name because we never call teacher's name by itself. We always add this honorific In a word, Rinpoche, which literally means precious one. And he was the master of all masters. And he is the greatest living Dzogchen masters of his time. And he is even today known by all the masters. Probably many of them have received blessings from him.

What is Dzogchen?

Dzogchen is the pinnacle of, you know—

Enlightenment.

Enlightenment. So Dzogchen literally means great perfection. You know, Dzog could be translated as complete. Chen means great. So great completeness. So which means that When you're able to have enlightened mind, when you're able to actualize enlightened mind, there's nothing that is not complete, nothing that is incomplete. So everything is complete, everything is perfect. Perfect as it is. So which means as an enlightened master, being able to Realize that this moment in this reality, whatever is happening or nothing is happening, this is it. So this is the message of the great perfection.

And what does Rigpa mean?

So Rigpa means one who is aware of that, one who realized that. So you are able to remain in the continuum of Rigpa. Means you are in the continuum of this awareness, continuum of this experience. That's the Rigpa. So one who is able to free yourself from all the ignorance is Rigpa. One who is bound by ignorance is Marigpa.

Marigpa.

So opposite of Rigpa.

How do you become aware?

Awareness is here all the time. Only, so like you have to light that candle.

How do you do that?

So lighting that candle is to be able to truly see that there is nothing that is there to condition. And any conditional way is So you can start that by having renunciation and by having conviction saying, oh, all these things is temporary, transient, and there's no inherent value in anything. So sooner or sooner, At the beginning, you renounce. You renounce from all the ignorant ways because all the ignorant ways are consequential. You have to suffer because of your ignorance, because you have condition. So nothing conditioned lasts. Nothing conditioned is indestructible. So as you realize, you renounce from desire, renounce from anger, Renounce from jealousy and so on and so forth, right? You renounce this ignorant way of being. As you're able to practice this renunciation, then you come to develop knowledge to purify, purify all the impurities and whatever that habit that have bound you to be in this way. So you purify. Purify all negatives. Purification practice takes place. As you are able to do this practice of purification more and more, then you're able to embrace transformation practice. You are able to transform all the negative into positive.

Oh.

Negative into positive. So you end up in a good karma. You're able to really benefit from that. As you're able to transform this, with the bodhisattva activities, compassionate activities, then you embark on a journey to liberate on the spot. So whatever it is, you just illuminate right there so darkness disappears. So as you are able to liberate yourself, then I think you are able to experience the Rigpa. You're able to have in the continuum, you are able to have that Rigpa In every moment, because now whatever you're doing, you are not going to distract or you're not going to be distracted by anything. So this is like a gradual way to move forward. But then if you're very fortunate, very fortunate, if you're very smart, if you're really intelligent, then you have a teacher, you have a spiritual friend. where you have a very deep connection and relationship where you have devotion and respect, you're able to receive the blessing to be empowered to have that Rigpa on the spot. So that is like a fast and a ways.

So lineage actually matters quite a bit because like, you know, when you You go to all these Western philosophies, there's an app about mindfulness, there's an app about like, you know, breathing techniques, but they're so devoid of like the lineage, so to say.

Right.

Right. And people like blindly assume that like downloading an app is equal to becoming conscious in world. What do you think about that?

No, it is very unfortunate today in this world, and the people are not able to find real resources to tap into as we have been fortunate enough.

Hmm.

For lineage means there is a reservoir of blessing that was coming down for thousands of years. And the way it's coming down is each and every masters in the lineage, Have lived life of awareness, lived life of compassion, experienced unconditional love. So they have tested, they have examined, and they have applied, and they have experienced it. So therefore they're able to celebrate life. So this celebration, the way to celebrate was passed down from teacher to A student, teacher, student in a lineage. So that is one physical lineage. The another lineage is the wisdom lineage where their wisdom realization is again transferred to another wisdom enlightened being. So one wisdom is connected to another wisdom. So totally wisdom is experience, right? So to have that experience, their lineage is so profound because that empowers you to go beyond your mind. You're able to dwell in the wisdom, the state of your mind, right? So today—

How do you define wisdom?

Wisdom is that unconditioned state of your intelligence, right? So today what you see in the apps and everything, there's a play of mind. These things never go beyond mind. You are always trapped in the mind and circling around in the mind. So you can say it's knowledge or whatever, but doesn't mean you are able to cross the river and cross the ocean, but you're not able to pass the suffering. So once you are not able to cross the suffering, if you are completely in the suffering, so even if your mind is very beautiful, but you're bound to experience suffering. So therefore it is not as beneficial. But then what can you do? We are not able to provide these resources to everyone yet. This is what we need to do. We need to try, right? So we need to find ways for everyone to embrace universal peace, unconditional love, so that they're able to celebrate life. So today, I keep saying to everyone, please tell that these apps are only a tool for you to reach somewhere. It's like a stepping stone. It's not a real experience itself. So unless until you experience itself, you'll never be liberated.

Once you're not liberated, again, it is taking your time away from you, robbing your time and You are wandering in this suffering cyclic existence, right? So here I think we really need to have a deeper conversation with everyone. So look, let's be honest, and these are all there for transactional purpose in many ways, even though with maybe some good intention, it is a transactional purpose. So we have to go beyond that to Truly to be honest to oneself. So if we deceive ourselves, definitely we are going to deceive others for sure. We won't know how to not deceive others if we don't know how to not deceive ourselves. So this is where I think, I hope and pray that everybody feels responsibility to be kind and caring so that everyone is able to go beyond mind and able to embrace wisdom.

Because there are a lot of these influencers who would like, talk about like inspirational speakers and others, like, you know, who don't have this deep lineage background and they're charismatic, they're mesmerizing. But, you know, to your point, they're teaching you knowledge, not wisdom. And there's a huge difference between knowledge and wisdom. And so Help me understand, like, what is the trajectory from knowledge to wisdom? Like, how do you go from knowledge to wisdom?

Well, their way is quite amazing because they're very well organized.

Yeah.

And they know exactly what they're doing.

And they can say exactly what they need to say.

They need to say, and they're making The marketing specialist hands some return.

Yes.

You know, this is the purpose. So, which is again, the beauty of human intelligence as well. It's not good enough to liberate oneself from suffering, but you know, it's beautiful, right? They're so creative. They're able to have millions to invest in it and organize it in such a beautiful way. They lead you continuously and they chain you. Once you are there, they will make you go continuously and then better and better they have trade. Okay, if you spend one day with this very big guy, you have to do this and that, and therefore you'll get this and that. So it's like a very, very transactional in that way. So which is agenda-driven, you know, which is today where most of the people are caught, you know? So what can you do? I mean, this is the reality today. But But those who are smart enough, those who are intelligent enough, they will not ever be hooked by that thing because most important thing is you have your mind. So you have to liberate yourself from this mind. Mind itself is beautiful, but this thoughts and distraction, somehow you're not able to realize it. You're not able to experience it.

So difference is one is conditional, And another one is unconditional. So all these mind games are all conditional. In conditional world, they're very, very good and they're expert in it. And exactly, they know, they are, I mean, researching everything, make sure this is what is said and they're prepared, very well prepared. But the unconditional world is not with preparation. Unconditional world must be experienced as it is in this very moment because You cannot afford to prepare. When you're preparing for tomorrow, you are losing today. But unconditional way is even every single moment is to be experienced and lived. So there is no transactional that takes precedent here because that is not important. Real benefit is to be able to seize this very moment. as if there is no next moment. So this is the difference. Got it.

So what about the Western world in the last 30 years you experienced? People have gotten always wrong.

The last 30 years, I think Western world is getting better.

It's getting better.

Much getting better. And, you know, I find so many beautiful things in the West and so many beautiful things in the modern advancement, right? So I think we need to now make it turn a little bit to the direction where it'll have no negative consequences, right? That's where a turning point. I think overall, I am very much an advocate of whatever development is happening is a good development.

Mm-hmm.

But You must be ready to handle it, handle it in a meaningful way. So most important, I think we have to prepare ourselves.

Is the alignment.

Exactly. We have to prepare ourselves to be able to be equipped in managing. But after all, you have to manage your thoughts. You have to manage your feelings. You have to manage your life. So I keep saying to everybody, since the beginning of civilization till today, best manager ever born, you know, on this earth is called Shakyamuni Buddha, the best manager.

Interesting. So how do you define enlightenment?

So that is the hardest part, you know, that is the hardest part to define enlightenment.

Have you achieved enlightenment?

So like if I achieve enlightenment, Then there has to be I that is so important, feels I have achieved enlightenment. So therefore I am conditioning that I and identifying this I. So this is a dilemma, right? So what I can say is that if you are enlightened or close to enlightenment, what will happen to you is you will have real compassion in your heart, real compassion. You'll feel everybody's pain and suffering. All the good things happening and bad things, whatever, you will feel it. You will have this understanding. And at the same time, you will have a great deal of humility. You will have humility. You will be humble. You will be less selfish. You will be less arrogant. You will have that humanity in you blossoming. So I think that is the best description we can make. Anybody who claims I'm enlightened and this and that, it's okay. They can claim whatever they like because you can waste your life any way that you want. But that doesn't justify, that doesn't really explain whether he or she is enlightened or not. But most important thing is action speaks louder than words, right? And the way you carry yourself can see, right?

How tiger walks, you can know. And the tiger is confidently walking in the jungle and the king of the jungle. Similarly, the person who has this humility, person who is able to experience compassion, person who is able to relate and find flexibility in his way and says everything to me, that is the person who is able to treasure his own life and able to treasure everyone around him.

Are you enlightened?

Whether I'm enlightened or not enlightened, it doesn't matter because I never consider I'm enlightened or I'm not enlightened. To me, it's a journey. I don't have time to even think of whether I am enlightened or not because thinking itself is waste of my time.

But is it a journey? Like, how do you define enlightenment?

I think enlightenment is one who is able to experience awareness in totality. So every moment, 24/7, he or she is able to abide by the law of karma and able to have that freedom to experience as it is. I think it's what could be enlightened.

Have you come across anyone recently who you have seen has come close to, like, because there are so many spiritual gurus, so claim, like, you know, people who like teach you like different ways of like living and ways of life and breathing techniques. And like, have you experienced anyone like you think like is truly enlightened?

No, I would like to see them all as enlightened being. I will always blame myself that my eyes is not good enough to see them. pure. Maybe I need to do operation on my eyes to make sure I'm able to see everybody clearly. If I'm not seeing them enlightened, maybe it's my wrong and my weakness. I don't have strength to be able to see the purity in them. So in a way, I would like to see everyone is enlightened. And especially to me, my teacher, His Holiness Chatteram Buche, Is enlightened in person, definitely. Somebody who is able to take me as a student, you know how naughty I am, and who's willing to waste his life on me, it has to be enlightened. Otherwise, it's just difficult to handle a person like me. So I definitely give that credit to my guru.

So not anyone contemporary?

No, I, you know, uh, to me everyone is enlightened, you know, everyone is there.

But sometimes like, you know, people fake enlightenment and then they, um, like, you know, their, their ulterior motives, like, you know, there are so many gurus who call themselves guru, like, you know, I don't want to name names, but like, you know, they have their own islands and then they have their own, like, you know, like, I have compassion for them.

I have compassion for them. There's nothing wrong with being, and I have compassion for them in a sense because they're spending priceless breath on claiming they're enlightened, right? So is it worth spending your priceless breath on claiming you're enlightened? But maybe for them it is. For me, it is not. As long as I claim I am this and that, I'm conditioning. So therefore, I'm not able to seize the moment, celebrate, and not to take a journey without consequences.

Oh.

So as long as you claim yourself this and that, you have to remember there is consequences to that. So why you have to be certain? Because the flow of energy, It's all-pervasive, all-encompassing. So therefore, if you're able to truly relate to the energy as it is right now, I don't think you have to claim this or that. When Buddha was asked whether he's enlightened or not, he was speechless. He didn't have any answer. So what he did is he touched the ground and he looked up in the sky. So earth and Space is his witness whether he is enlightened or not. To me, that says all, you know? So if you have to claim you are this and that, maybe there is a sense of poverty mentality.

So when you talk about unconditional, right? Like, you know, would you consider your grandmother enlightened with that definition?

Oh yeah. In that sense, very much.

Your mother, your, your, like, you know, everyone who's—

Yes, very much. Because I, Today, as you know, you know, I'm embarking on creating a peace destination for all peace lovers. And the centerpiece of this Universal Peace Sanctuary, the statue that I'm commissioning is a mother, mother's statue. And fortunately, this one and a company from London, and they're donating and 17-foot jade to be carved into and making the Maya Devi statue. So mother and love is unconditional love. So I think unconditional love is there with everyone, but whether we are able to experience it and enjoy it ourselves is the question.

Yeah.

So this is what I feel today when I say I want to see everybody is enlightened. What I mean is I want to have everybody experience their own unconditional love. You know, I mean, there's no better wish than that I can have because I want everybody to be able to experience unconditional love in every moment possible.

Let's switch gears. So you went to United States with 2 robes, with $100. Yes. So, and then you've been teaching at Yale, at Harvard, at Stanford, and, you know, Wesleyan and like, and all that stuff, right? All those like Ivy League schools. So tell me this. So you went to United States with like 2 robes, $100, and you've been teaching in all those Ivy League schools, whether it's Yale, it's Harvard, Stanford, Wesleyan. Did you, did it ever, tell me the journey first, like, you know, from like going from Himalayas to Varanasi to being like, you know, under the tutelage of Karmaster of Dzogchen to then going to United States. Like, why did that journey happen in the first place?

As I was in the university and I was able to study and able to really gain and some knowledge from my teachers. And one teacher in particular was very fond of me and he recommended me to be invited in the United States by this organization. Right after I graduated, I got invitation to come to US. Then I also got invitation from France and Taiwan. So 3 choices I had. So I choose America because while I was in Varanasi, time to time we visit River Ganges and places. Lots of American tourists used to come and I used to have little conversation here and there. I felt kind of rapport with them. So also if I go to France and Taiwan, I will have to learn another language, which is again, burden at that time I felt, which I should have learned more languages, but I was too lazy at that time. So I chose America and then I was invited and I went there and I gave teachings in their centers. And then as I was more able, many places they invited me to. give talks and seminars and retreats. So it was very, very meaningful in a way because my teachers recommended me to do so.

And in a way, I was fulfilling my teachers' wishes to serve whoever is in need through the teachings and meditations and so on and so forth. This journey was quite interesting. Yeah, I didn't know very much about America at all at that time, and I was kind of young and naive. But then what I felt is people are very receptive and people are there very much hungry and really looking for something more meaningful, teachings and way of being. So I thought it's worthwhile to be here, and then I continuously staying there and giving teachings.

Very good. So was there any time in the initial journey there, because I felt I experienced it like when I went to United States, what you see in cinemas is not what really is United States. Like it's not that you like, you know, get out of the plane and you start like, you know, picking up dollars on the road and becoming super rich and basically like, you know, the journey is anything like that actually, to be honest. Like, you know, you're you're actually an immigrant in a country where you experience different cultural baggages that you are carrying into a different place. The place feels very alien to you, the food feels alien to you, the language sometimes feels alien to you, the way you dress feels alien to them, right? So is there this immigrant mentality or the exile mentality that ever kicked in in you that said, hey, this is probably not the place for me, I need to Well, I had a little bit different experience than probably you did because I was in this robe, which helped a lot.

And so—

People are not judging you.

I put Buddha's blessing right there and everybody, wherever they saw me, they bow to me and respect me and honor me and always seeking. something from me that they felt that I must have something to share for them. So therefore they received me with great respect and lots of affection and so on and so forth. But you are right, because in the restaurants when I go with my disciples and places, even though I lived in a very remote area in a countryside in the Stockbridge, And everybody is sort of like staring at me, you know, I felt, you know. So I said, my disciples are all very close to me and we are having conversation in English and we are having conversation in very deep Buddhist philosophy and wisdom and compassion. So at that moment when I'm having dinner and lunch or something with them, I don't find myself anything different from them, right? So Even though they are Anglo-Saxon, white, and Jewish, and whatever. And I didn't feel much difference with them because we are very close in that way. But everybody around staring at me. So then I used the bathroom and I look in the mirror.

I say, yeah, of course, I look different because I don't look like all the people in the world. So I can understand it. That could be it. So I go back to inside. I said, okay, they can stare at me now. They have something.

What?

more interesting to stare at than all the white people in the countryside in a very much white. But then another thing is, as far as the food is concerned, you are right, you know, because at the beginning, one of my Italian-American student, and she used to invite me for dinner and lunch and things like that. And they gave me first time—

Pasta. Spaghetti. Spaghetti.

And pasta, you know? So I, you know, I said, you know, what kind of food is this? Yeah. So they tell me this is Italian food and blah, blah, blah. And I used to joke and say, Italian only knows how to eat tomato. That's all they know how to be. I didn't like it, right? I didn't like it. I didn't eat. And they took me to several Italian restaurants, you know, very nice restaurants over there. So slowly, slowly I get used to it. spaghetti, you know, pasta, you know. So now today, you know, I have to have pasta whenever I find a— how do you tell yourself? I, you know, like, boy, it tastes—

So one of the things I find it very strange people tend to do, which I cannot explain myself. And it's like, you know, I think different people react in different ways when people migrate into a different country, they're so focused about becoming one of them, not maintaining their true identity. So they pick up an accent.

Right.

Right. They wear different, like, you know, like they have a different way of talking, walking, you know, the clothes they wear. They wanna blend in. And I find that extraordinarily interesting because what makes you human and what, who you are is the very unique nature of who you are. And, uh, I found it like, I, like, I've lived there for 25 years now and I don't have an accent. Like, I don't have an American accent, right? And I wear clothes like this all the time to work or any place.

Right.

Like, and I feel like whatever I have to wear, like I wear flip-flops and a hoodie and walk. Or I wear like, you know, kurta pajama and walk. I've actually given like speeches bare feet in large conferences and people find it extraordinarily strange because like in India, you want to be connected to the ground all the time. So I think like, you know, I don't know why people have this fascination to become one of the culture not retain your identity as a human. So what do you think about that?

No, it's a lack of confidence.

Lack of confidence.

You know, I have many Chinese students, you know, when I go to China and I say to them, you know, the best thing for Chinese is to embrace Chineseness instead of trying to copy European or American style. You will never become European and American because you are Chinese. You are going to be Chinese all your life. All your life. So this is very interesting point here I want to bring is that, as I said, confidence. This is where people are missing the opportunity. As you said, uniqueness of each and every culture, individual is something we must be able to embrace. So uniqueness in a sense, In this very moment, whatever thoughts, feelings is happening, and this is what you have to integrate into. Forget about what is coming next, what is gone before. That is another matter because as long as you are able to experience this uniqueness of whatever it is, if you are able to integrate into it, you'll be able to integrate next moment, In whatever the unique experience or feelings or thoughts that comes, right? So you have to develop this ability to embrace this moment as most valid, most unique, most complete.

With this confidence, you will be able to experience completeness of your being. So when people are trying to copy, They're not being, they're doing something. They're doing what they feel should be done. Oh, I have to blend into American way with American accent and so on and so forth. But a real American principle, they're not able to realize it, right? What is the foundation on which America is built? That is what you need to embrace it. That is humanity. That's the strength of being completely human and free, who enjoys the right. So when you talk about the right, you don't have to imitate anything. Right to be however it is, whatever it is, whenever it is. And this is the key. But then you have to have confidence. You have to be very, very fortunate. So you are very fortunate in that way. You are able to walk on the barefoot and give teaching. You are not identifying with your nice Gucci shoes or anything like that. Rather, you're identifying with who you truly are. You are able to integrate in it, right? So that confidence is lacking in many, many people on this earth, right?

That's where we have to have compassion. That's where we really come with the caring and unconditional love. So how we can empower, how we can And relate to everybody and say, look, you are beautiful, you are perfect, and everything is as it should be. There's nothing is limiting you, nothing is decreasing you. Come on, try to see it. So if you're able to bring that mirror in front of you, look here, you see it. And that is what I think is important. We must base all our activities on that foundation to serve humanity.

So for a culture which doesn't understand like what dharma is and karuna is and all that stuff, like, and vocabulary is a very different problem for them, right? How do you, how do you go about teaching them all those learnings of the inner meaning of enlightenment and like the journey of enlightenment and other things? Like, so what is your experience? In being in the Western world?

So what I feel is in the Western world, then everyone who are living in the West, they have mind. And the Eastern world who are living in the East, they have a mind. So beautiful part of this journey with the people with the mind is once you're able to bring clarity, once you're able to reason, once you're able to explain, Everyone is going to concur with you. There's nothing that you have to say something extraordinary to make them agree with you. So whatever is natural, whatever is the real, whatever is the most profound, meaningful thing, I find everyone has ability to embrace it and realize it. So it is us, we are lacking in coming out with creative ways to explain compassion ways to relate, compassionate ways to relate, and skillful means to apply. So this is, as long as we are not lacking, I think our audience out there are all ready to learn, ready to embrace, ready to find clarity. So I see no problem at all, you know, but this is why I went to Davos and this is why I went to White House. This is why I go to blockchain annual conferences or wherever, you know, I go.

Because this beautiful part of human nature is that as long as you are able to communicate honestly, clearly, there's a room for you to fit in, room for you to really relay your message to them. It's really interesting part.

What does that student in America has that the student in Tibet doesn't have?

The student in America does have this independent thinking. where it is my right to understand. And that is there. But what in the West don't have is the devotion tradition.

The lineage.

Lineage, devotional tradition that we have in the East. But ultimate devotion is being able to understand with wisdom. That is ultimate devotion. So that means finding guru within. So once you are able to find guru within, You're following the lineage.

Very interesting. So do you find the American students like having the realization that the guru is within you? Or like, you know, are they, how, how do you explain? Because it, it is a deeply profound thought that like the mind has to be connected to the soul and the soul has to be in search of basically this, the, the lineage, like the guru, right? Like the invisible that like is leading your path. Do you find that basically like the, the Western culture is more open to that versus the Tibetan culture? Or like, is it like, are you following? Because in, in Tibet, you are following the lineage, right? So like you were considered a reincarnate and then, you know, your job is to basically teach others to follow the lineage. But all of these Western students come with no baggage, no connections, no lineages. So are they more receptive to this concept of a guru or?

It's very interesting because I have few students who—

Am I making sense to you or?

Yeah, few students who are now in 80s and 90s and they've been with me for 35 years.

Wow.

And their devotion is beyond anybody's imagination, you know? So even today, and some of them are in their own house, They are not in the old folks' house or anything like that. They're in their own house and meditating and practicing and listening to my teachings and enjoying them. So their devotion is a real devotion because they have clarity. So what majority of Western people, they can be anywhere in Hyderabad as well, there are too much distractions. They have so many distractions. So that robs them. So if you are in a cave in the Himalayas, there's less distraction. It cannot take you away. You have few things to do. So this is why I feel Tibetans are very fortunate to have embraced Buddha's teaching.

Because they have less distraction.

Less distraction. And then they have taste to squeeze. Buddha's teaching is like a juice that you can squeeze. That's all they have, nothing else to squeeze. So they squeeze this juice and they're able to take all this essence to sustain, right? So today in the West, there's so many distractions. It's in Hyderabad. Hyderabad people who are well off financially, there's so much distractions. Well off intellectually, there's so much distractions. So that's like a circus theme in their own world where they're not able to get out of that world. That is the problem. But as a human being is concerned, I see nothing wrong. I see so beautiful. I mean, to be born as a human being, I have tears in my eyes when I think about it. How fortunate and what else we need? There's nothing that is more beautiful than being born as a human being and the ability to find clarity and realize it's a gift. that only human beings possess. So it's like unbelievable. So I am very fortunate. So whenever I go and as you know, we've met in Davos, I'm the only one there in this robe, right? So, and somehow relating to everybody, I never found anyone a stranger to me.

So like whatever I'm doing and I try to share, whether they're receptive or not, it really doesn't matter to me because As long as I'm there celebrating as a whole humanity, I am able to gain the biggest satisfaction. So I wish that everybody have that kind of a chance and environment to really carry themselves.

My grandmother always used to say, you can learn anything from someone. What did you learn from the Western cultures that Buddhism did not teach you?

I'm not so sure I particularly learned anything from Western world that Buddhism never taught me. I could not say that I have anything in particular that I learned from Western world.

Except pasta.

Pasta, spaghetti, that, that I have. Yes.

So was there any profound like thought or like, you know, like was there anything that you had not learned from Dzogchen? that basically you learned from the Western world?

No, there's—

No, and I—

In Dzogchen, there's complete wisdom, complete understanding you can gain. You don't need anything beyond Dzogchen. If you are able to embrace Dzogchen, you have embraced the universe.

Got it.

That, there's no doubt about it. But in the West, what I found culturally is that Whether you are the prince or crown prince, or whether you are ordinary person, as long as you are able to, you know, sort of like actualize your qualities in a meaningful way, in the West there is a market for that and people are able to really appreciate that, you know? So in our East, we have this culture of going back, you know, to sort of like a societal traditional way, which sometimes limits for those who are able to grow like a mushroom by breaking the earth and coming up and becoming very delicious. So this is, now it's changing a little bit in the East as well. But I think beside that, I think there's not much difference.

So your first book was called Living the Life Fully.

Living the Life Fully, yes.

So why did you come up with that title? What's the reason behind it? And what does living life fully mean to you?

To me, there's nothing there for us other than living fully. And the subtitle is, finding joy in every breath.

Hmm.

So this is how I feel it now. I felt then. So to me, living fully means that life itself is very, very precious. Life must be realized that it is temporary, very transient. Any moment you will not have this precious life. So therefore, you must seize the moment. You must be able to celebrate life. You must be able to live your life no matter what is happening to you. All these ups and downs and right and wrong and happiness and unhappiness should not necessarily affect you because no matter what is happening, you are living life. As soon as your breath stops, You do not even have chance to suffer. You don't have chance to suffer physically, at least. You do not have chance to think because your mind is no longer in this form. So you don't have chance to experience, you know, like if somebody gives you a massage, opportunity to experience this oil in your body and everything. So once you don't have this, it's gone, right? So while we are alive here, I think it is very important for us to Enjoy and help everybody to enjoy in whatever way they can.

So this is why I encourage everybody by having book named Living Fully, Finding Joy in Every Breath. So at least see that there's this possibility, you know.

So like an average human being, how many breaths do you think they actually live fully in the moment? 0, 1, 8.

Yeah, exactly. That's the thing. Forget about the average being, right? So those who are advanced beings, as they want to think of, I'm not so sure even they remember their breathing in their days, even for 5, 10 times. We even forget we're breathing, right? So right now, when you and I'm talking, no matter how important subject we are talking, And actually the most important thing is we must realize we are breathing, right? Sometimes our subject we think is so important, we forget that we are breathing. So then we attach to that subject like a bee going into the flower and sucking the nectar so much so that when dusk, sun goes down, they forget to get out of that battle and they get trapped in that battle because it closes down and they get killed by the same place where they're enjoying, right? So this is very important for us to always remember that no matter how important thing we are doing, what is the greatest thing we are doing? And the greatest thing is being able to do it, not attaching to it. Being able to do it, meaning? being able to have this breath to experience.

If you forget that, then we always get sidetracked and then it creates obstacles and then we get stressed and sleepless nights and all the problems start from there.

Let's talk about like this topic of living fully, right? Is it even possible to do that? Is it like, because You know, you see all this amazing slogans on a mug saying like, you know, live in the present and, you know, experience life every day. And like, you know, you go to Vipassana and they teach you like how to breathe. You go to like Art of Living, they teach you how to breathe, but you never basically like are in the moment or like trying to, because it's so difficult to even kind of divorce your mind from all the mundane, right? Like your wife, like, you know, your mortgage, your payment, like the child, the school, and the sufferings you're going through. How do you think even it's possible to live in the moment?

No, it's—

Unless and until you have like no attachments.

No, it's not even a matter of possibility or not possibility. It is our birthright. As far as I'm concerned, it is a birthright. But there is a misunderstanding that if you are able to celebrate this moment, you have to forget about your wife, you have to forget about business, you have to forget about this and that. I don't think so. What it is, is like when you are in this very moment, you are able to relate to it fully. It's not that you don't relate and you escape. I think escaping can be meditation in some sense, but real experience, if you are able to have, you're not escaping, you're even integrating deeper in the most meaningful and profound way. So therefore, as far as I'm concerned, It's not about whether it is possible or not. I find it, it is absolutely everyone's birthright. Therefore, everyone will be able to experience it. Only they need a spiritual teacher, a spiritual friend who guide you, who remind you, who really influence you in a way that you find clarity where you are able to have real conviction in being in the moment. So today you are right.

There are many, many gurus out there who are very much in heavy-handed way say, be here and now and so on and so forth. I mean, it's very easy for anybody to say, but most important thing is not to self-deceive. And while you are saying such thing, if you are self-deceiving, and self-deception is the biggest enemy you have, no other enemy outside there who can harm you. Only self-deception can harm, right? So even if guru themselves, if that's what they're saying, and you have to think very carefully. So whether you are really helping yourself, forget about helping other, whether you're helping even yourself or not is questionable. So for me, the most important thing is you become very, very realistic. You become very, very down to earth to see And be alert. So, oh, am I alert enough to really see the vividness of this moment and able to experience it? So if you're not able to experience it, then you lost it. You know, when you lost it, then you don't have life, even though you are in a body and it's like a dead body because you don't have that essence in you where there is lacking of awareness.

So household Being house— like having household responsibilities does not really soften you.

No, no.

For seeking.

Household is not an obstacle to me. I think while you are in a household, you have responsibility to breathe still, right? So by being able to breathe fully and lead your household duties, and what is wrong with that? Because Actually, you have a standard where you are able to be so versatile. Any given moment, whatever is needed, you're able to rise to the occasion. So that is what we have to develop. That is what compassion is. That is what wisdom is. I think having that compassion and wisdom in daily life is more important than running away to some vipassana or something like that. I mean, of course, vipassana is good, And if you're not running away for some reason.

So when you talk about like breathing fully, what does that mean? Like how do you breathe fully?

So breathe fully is in a physical sense, right? So we have certain amount of breath in our life. So after that number of breath ends and our life stops, physical life stops there. So each and every breath, when you are breathing fully, you have complete appreciation. In a sense, you're not missing anything while you're breathing. And while you're doing something, you're missing breathing. So you are able to breathe it, you're able to experience it, you're able to not be caught into something or not be chained by something, not be enslaved by something. So that's breathing fully. So breathing fully in a sense where whatever is happening, like your child, let's say when you are with your child, you are there as needed with him, as it is applicable with him, right? So when you are with a child, you are not carried away by your idea of what you are going to do tomorrow. you're able to truly have that moment and dedicate it fully for that purpose. And when you are dedicated fully for that purpose, you're not missing anything outside of it either. Because again, then if you feel you're missing something outside of it, you're not breathing fully in that sense.

So breathing—

You're not talking exactly about a technique that like, you know, Take like 50, like, you know, breaths inside, leave like, you know, 100 breaths outside. Like you're not talking about the technique itself.

Yeah.

But you're talking about basically like experiencing the breath.

Yes. Experience the breath. So technique can be applied, but technique is only a tool, right? Technique is to be able to experience the breath itself. If you are able to experience breath itself, You do not need any techniques because that is the ultimate technique that you have.

So not having, not having a tool is the real experience.

Yes. Tool is tool and a stepping stone. So a stepping stone is needed to get somewhere, but that is not what you're—

Your destination.

Yeah.

Tell me a little bit about like the sanctuary, like Lumbini.

Yeah. So this is called Universal Peace Sanctuary. And this is my pure vision. It came to me as I was traveling and giving talks, retreats, and seminars. I realized that everyone is suffering. There's no one who is not suffering. You know, to the king, the president, prime minister, to the sweepers and the shoemakers, whoever, you know, people are, no matter how educated and how illiterate, no matter how rich, how poor, everyone is suffering in one way or other.

Why is that?

I think it's because of ignorance. So I realized everyone is trying to find peace. Everyone is trying to find happiness. So I looked at the history of mankind. From the beginning of civilization till today, no one ever created a peace destination that is solely dedicated for peace, not with some kind of dogma, philosophy, or religion, political or economical, without any of these things, all inclusive for humanity. to really have compassion and with unconditional love establish a peace destination. And now everyone is looking for peace. Even youngsters, Gen Z and Gen X, millennials, all are looking for peace. Not necessarily religion to follow, not necessarily a God to accept, Maybe some are, but majority of people are looking for peace. And so this, I think there is a possibility and there's a need for this. So I had this universal peace sanctuary vision I have, and then I was looking around where to symbolically establish the peace destination first as a symbolic monument. Of course, that is not the real destination. My vision is The real destination for humanity is to that 8 billion people's heart.

Hmm.

Within each and everyone's heart. That is my ultimate destination, but we need a symbolic. So I realized that in Lumbini, Queen Maya Devi, as a mother with unconditional love, she tried to express her responsibility by sacrificing her life. And because this story is that she was told while she was in the palace that she should not have child.

Hmm.

She should not bear child and she will not live to raise her child. Nonetheless, she had conviction, she had courage. She was determined to be a responsible mother by having a child and she delivered her child. So there, as she was told, she lived only 7 days after she gave birth to her child. Later, her child become the Buddha and light of Asia and apostle of peace, but she never get to experience it. So this, I found it very symbolic place because mother's love is closest to unconditional love humanly we can experience.

Hmm.

As your mother passed away, I'm sure you experienced that and you would do everything to find her in that place where she gains satisfaction by unconditional love that she shared with you and everyone else, right? So this is the foundation I feel will be a lasting foundation, indestructible foundation. for peace. So I have started the Universal Peace Sanctuary there, and we have completed around 25% of the construction so far. I have established Universal Peace Sanctuary Foundation in Geneva as a headquarters. So right now we are working on it, and I just came from there. We celebrated first roofing of the Universal Peace Sanctuary, and I launched my book, The Path to Perfect Freedom, there on Buddha Janti. So this is where I feel that, and I'm telling all the people in Nepal and the government that Lumbini does not belong only to Nepal. Lumbini belongs to the world. This must be the peace city and where all the world leaders will come to negotiate and find solution through dialogue instead of going to war. So I have created there 1,500-seater state-of-the-art conference hall, and then smaller 2, 3 halls where 80, 90 world leaders can stay and sit in each room to have peaceful dialogue, have peace research, and find solution.

And then there's a peace museum, peace library, Peace Institute where I can have a few hundred people and always every day researching on peace, how to prevent war from happening. So this concept came because the blockchain, as you know today, and we have technology and we have all the information in our palm. And as long as we have a smartphone, we can have all the information. So how can we utilize these things? to benefit humanity. How profoundly we can involve in today's development of blockchain, AI, and all this technology. How idea of decentralizing world economy to empower sovereign wealth. How that sovereign wealth can be transferred as a peace. How that peace can again translate into sovereign wealth. So this concept is very, very important. I think We have possibility to shape the future where world economy, as it was based on war until now, in the future, we may be able to have world economy built on the foundation of peace. So therefore, peace can be more lucrative, peace can be more profitable, peace can be more meaningful to involve than any other activities. Yeah. Today people are evolving.

Don't you think that like, you know, from our, whenever we were cavemen till this day, power, dominance, and control has been the only thing that ruled the world so far. And, uh, Buddha is the only person who kind of like went over and saw the entire loop, so to say, to get over it. But everyone that we know today, like, you know, whether it is Governments, countries, right? They all seek power. They all seek control. They all seek basically more of wealth, right? And that wealth may not be theirs, but they want to like go, like, you know, get that wealth. So is that like wishful thinking or is it like something that you think will happen in the future?

This is not wishful thinking. This will happen in the future because now What we are doing is we are trying to give everybody power, more power than they have right now. And the way we give power, we want to give power over mind. I want everybody to have power over their own mind so that they're able to control their mind. They're able to subjugate the mind. If they can, they're able to liberate the mind.

Each individual, you mean? Not like the government, not like the politicians, not like—

So individuals are the one that builds the government.

Yeah.

If each and every individual brings clarity and they prioritize this peace within themselves to have power over their mind, they realize how to liberate their mind, how to liberate their concepts and thoughts. If they're not entangled with thoughts, they realize that this is giving them freedom.

But like, you know, don't you think democracy doesn't need like everyone to have like same thoughts in the sense you only need to be 51%.

That's right.

The 49% could be like completely in the opposite direction, which happens to the entire world. And that 49 becomes 51, that 51 becomes 49. And like, you know, you flip-flop and there is a yin yang. So you go from like, you know, like, you know, left thinking to right thinking. Like, you know, you go like back and forth even in the biggest democracies. And so how do you How do you even, like, how can we say that people can actually like decide what the future is? Because only 51% of the people can actually decide what the remaining 49% have to follow.

So that makes us even easier to work with 51% folk. And my target is to 100%. So, and there's no debate over that issue.

No, but like, you know, that's the problem, right? In the sense, don't you think like, you know, like the 51% And then there's like someone somewhere in between, like, you know, the 20%, which is going back and forth between the two thinking always, right? Like the, the, so there are independents, there is left and there's right. And like, you know, basically depending on how you feel the current state of affairs is, they flip one side or the other. And like all governments, all democracies, like everyone is going through this deep, deep, deep distressful moment. Like, you know, there's so many wars there right now. Uh, people are going and taking over countries. People like want, like, you know, uh, to rule other nations. Look at like, you know, China and Tibet, right? Uh, so I see more unrest, no peace. And I, I fully, you know, agree with you that we need more peace, but how do you go about this process though?

No, for me, And I believe in 51% of the population as much as I believe in 49% of the population. So I don't see any problem in that as far as I'm concerned, because to me, the biggest work that we have is to prevail with intelligence. So there—

How do you define intelligence?

Intelligence is by having clarity. So in this room, because we have light, there's no room for darkness to exist. So once we have light, we can see everything very clearly, right? So because of that, probably we look quite nice on the video as well. So the light, that helps. So similarly, if we are able to bring wisdom and intelligence into their lives, I think All the governments don't have to worry about it.

You should be willing to receive it.

I don't think there's anyone who is not willing to receive it. They do not know how to receive it. They do not know what they want and what they need. So that is where we need to bring clarity and show them, okay, look in this mirror. Don't you want to look like this? Don't you want to have like this? So if they see like that, oh yeah, I want to have it like this. So it's only lacking in our ability to deliver the message and going out there to help and assist. And then this kind of things like podcasts and what have you is the beginning, you know. So now—

But you have to have 8 billion messages though. Everyone believes in something different.

Yes. Which is the beautiful part. That much we have more opportunity to exercise our ability.

Is it not a content creation problem in that case?

Oh no. Content creation, no problem. Because I think as far as we are concerned, I don't think we need to create any new content. The content is there. However we are able to, so like, enlighten this content is the more important.

So tell me more about the peace building, like, and the peace philosophy. So you talk about the 1,000-year, something which is gonna last for 1,000 years. So speak to me a little bit more about like your thought process. Can you build something for 1,000 years?

Yes, physically, of course, we can build something that can last very long. Of course, you can build in a way that can be renovated, an example. But what I am building right now is to withstand an 8.0 Richter scale earthquake even in this Universal Peace Sanctuary. This is a monument. It has a possibility to become one of the 8 Wonders of the World, that kind of beautiful design and everything we found. So most important thing is that, you know, to last this for thousands of years by establishing this Universal Peace Sanctuary Foundation within each and everyone's heart, which I am asking everybody to become the stakeholder and feel the ownership of this project because Peace must be priority in everyone's life. So as far as foundation is concerned, we established in US and we have established in Geneva recently and in Hong Kong, now in Nepal. So everybody is able to involve even financially, even in a day-to-day life, so they can be a part of it. They can also enjoy it. They can also benefit from it. And where I feel that we should not take peace for granted. So if we take peace for granted, I think we ourselves are the victim.

We will be shooting on our own foot. So I think if we think of ourselves, we must think of our great-great-great-grandchildren as well. So I think in this way, there is a possibility for everyone to involve in this as their living legacy, where you are able to find an impact investment. so to speak, with your CSR and your corporate social responsibility, or anyway, we are nonprofit and tax-exempt charitable organization so that everyone is able to benefit from this in their lives. So idea is that this monument is being built, people are able to involve in this foundation, become the peace ambassadors where my vision is to have peace clubs around the globe. Instead of Rotary Club and Lions Club, Harvard Club, Yale Club, I feel that we should have peace club in every city, every town, everywhere so that people are able to enjoy meditation, people are able to enjoy yoga, people are able to have seminars, discussions, interactions, networking, where peace becomes the theme so that people are able to do business better. With that peace, they're able to have trust. Trust is the issue here today. Not being able to trust between the countries, between the neighbors, between the business partners, between each other, between the family, it creates disharmony, it creates problem today, right?

So this is very important. And a project, as far as I'm concerned, probably one of the most meaningful projects today on this earth. So how can we make this successful?

Mm-hmm.

So I need all of you to involve and all of you to participate because this is where I think we should put our mind and heart into it and resources into it and make it happen for world. So the peace is more fashionable than war. Beautiful thought.

Beautiful thought. So you have said that, like, you know, like we were talking in the living space, you don't want money from everyone, you know, so there are conditions of why you need like donations from certain types of people versus others. What are those conditions? Why do you say that?

Generosity makes you gain strength. You know, when you are generous, you're not helping other person as much as you're helping yourself. I always feel this very important. When you are generous, by being generous means you're freeing yourself from attachment to what you are most attached to. So let's say if you are able to generously give your body, you are not attached to your body. In our tradition, we have one ritual practice where in the middle of night at 2:00 AM or maybe 1:00 AM, we go to the cemetery.

Hmm.

And the cemeteries are in Himalayas are the most dreaded place. And in a barren, in a most scary place, there is cemetery with all the bones and the skeletons, everything there. And then you go alone. You go alone in the middle of night where there's no electricity, where there's no light. You sit there in the cemetery with all the bones, right? And then you meditate and you practice generosity of giving your body.

Hmm.

Like those who have already gone before you, who become a skeleton, so that you have no fear of this body losing. You have no attachment to this body. So then you do this practice ritual. It's called, you know, a chut ritual. So in that, what you do is you visualize you're giving your body. You know, moment in this kind of scary place, you have fear. You know, nobody's there in the middle of night. And now you are able to have this courage. understanding and clarity to not to associate with this body as a permanent thing to associate with. You're recognizing this, you're able to become generous, right? So in a similar way, what I'm saying is like, I want to test everyone. I want to invite everyone to be generous with $1, 1 rupee, One Bitcoin, one Ethereum, whatever it is. So one. So try, see, are you able to be really generous? Are you able to be generous without attaching to this? If you are able to do that, I think we are embarking on a very beautiful journey and we will be able to accomplish this together. So in a way, money cannot build peace, right?

inspiration, wisdom, and a commitment to really work for humanity will build the peace, right? So in a way, I'm asking everybody to commit yourself for the betterment of humanity, betterment of mankind. So this is very, very important, a serious matter. And every government should be aware of this. Every corporate should be aware of this. Every CEO should be aware of this. Every biggest philanthropist should be aware of this as every small, tiny beggar on the street should be aware of this, where we all together as one equal partner, we can accomplish this. And this is my vision and I'm working on it. And thank you for asking your question. And I really need help to make this happen in such a way that everybody benefits from it.

Beautiful thought.

Beautiful thought.

So, and I'm sincerely honored to be like even part of this journey with you because for me, the reason why I chose the path I chose, and I talk about it very extensively, is my father basically used to deliver telegrams. He used to make ₹175 and even with nothing, he used to basically give all of his money away to others. And that generosity that he had, like, you know, he never was there to kind of like, you know, pass his blessings to me right away. But through his beautiful deeds, there are other people who showed up in my life who actually enhanced my life to where I am. And when I held my son, he looked exactly like my father. And in that moment, I said to myself, you know, I would love to leave like the best gift I could give my son, which is a billion angels to my son, right? Those billion angels can be basically created through technology because you cannot create a billion angels because it's going to take a lot of time to influence every angel.

Right.

to become an angel, right? For every individual to see what is good in them. So technology was a way to do it. And so I went down the path of trying to do it. So I can completely relate to what you're trying to say. It's like, you know, it's thinking beyond like money, it's thinking beyond wealth, it's thinking beyond like, it's basically creating a society where we truly can leave a legacy of peace, prosperity, And abundance, not abundance of wealth, abundance of beautiful thoughts. And I completely like align with your thoughts on this.

Thank you.

So now coming back to like this generation, what they suffer with, right? They can't— we are a civilization that does not experience stillness, doesn't know what stillness is. And you have practiced this. Your tradition actually teaches you this, right? How do we go about addressing the stillness problem?

So I will address this, but before I address this, I want to add something a little bit more to what you have said. And you know, this is the beautiful part of our meeting here today. And this is a And a great honor for us to have you as a peace ambassador and a founding member of Universal Peace Sanctuary Foundation. And this maybe also is a right time to share with the rest of your audience here. Right now, we are looking for seed money for this project because this is very important project. This has to be done in the right way. And about 2 months ago or 3 months ago, one person in Geneva, when I was there to establish Universal Peace Sanctuary Foundation, and she is a clairvoyant, and she told me, and even though I wasn't seeking help from her, I was there and she came to pay respect to me, but— She really was touched by this project. And then she asked me about my birthday, then my name and all this sign and everything. And I said, you know, I don't really need to, you know, do anything regarding this. But she says, no, no, I want to do something.

And I said, okay, make you happy, I'll do it. So she told me is that your vision is great. You know, really this is amazing and the world needs it. But you're not organized enough. And she said, you're not asking people to do. You have to ask people to do this. You never tell what you need. You just give everybody a chance to open themselves up and work something within themselves to realize. This doesn't work. You have to tell them what you need. So I thought that was also making sense because right now to make this happen, we need to have top brains around the world and the most kind heart around the world to be a part of it. So we need to have a team created. It's just, it's not good enough to have one-man army for this big project. So for this, we are looking for seed money. So Anyone in the audience, and of course in yourself most importantly, and who can and who is able to, there is a room here for you to shine with your generosity. So, and anybody who would like to participate, and through you, I would like to request everyone to become the stakeholder and make sure you feel the ownership of this project because now This project is not my project.

This project is not only me who should be doing it. I think this opportunity must be shared with everyone. And I appreciate that if anybody can participate with large audiences that you have. Now, secondly, when you talk about stillness, you know, so there is no particular stillness that you have to experience, you know? So people seem to have misunderstood what stillness is. And real ultimate stillness is that when thought as such occurring, you have to realize that thought, any thought, any feeling, whatever, as such occurring, as it is occurring, it has no inherent place to exist forever unless you condition it. So not conditioning it is to Say, remaining in stillness. So this is very important for people to understand. So to be able to remain in the stillness is not to associate with the thought more than it is needed. Example, when a face is reflected in the mirror, mirror has the potential to reflect. And things can reflect. Whatever beautiful things can reflect, and also beautiful things can reflect. But mirror doesn't have a judgment that this is beautiful and this is not beautiful. Nor mirror chases after beautiful, and neither mirror rejects the ugly part, right?

So anything, whatever manifests in the mirror, reflects in the mirror, Mirror is never stained. So recognizing that is to remain in stillness. So that's stillness, what it is. So stillness doesn't mean, okay, get rid of everything, your wife, family, husband, thoughts, job, get rid of everything and you just become like something else. No, that is not humanity. That is not being who you truly are. The dynamic energy is going to be there no matter what. So dynamic quality must be inseparable with static state. Static state is the emptiness, right? So static state means dynamic is not just dynamic. Dynamic energy cannot exist by itself.

Hmm.

Because dynamic energy doesn't have a space to permanently become indestructible, right? So recognizing that is stillness. So that means To be still means not to be distracted by thinking that, oh, I have to chase after thoughts. I have to make something out of the thoughts, or I have to expect something from the thoughts, so on and so forth. So you are being yourself in whatever state that you are in. That is the stillness. So continuously being able to do this is to be, not to be affected by whatever is happening right now. Rather, you're able to integrate in this or whatever dynamic energy that is flowing. Even if nothing is coming, you are fine. Everything is coming, you are still fine in that state.

So let me ask you a provocative question then. So why did like Siddhartha have to leave everything to find stillness? when he could have just been a king and found stillness? Why did he have to, you know, renunciate and like, you know, give up everything and like sit and basically perform meditation to find like enlightenment? Why did he have to do that? And why are, why are you preaching that that is not the path to enlightenment?

No, I think, uh, it's not that, uh, Siddhartha did not have a real understanding. You know, if Siddhartha doesn't have that real understanding, I don't think he would have even left the palace. So example, there are lots of kings and princes around the world, and they don't have that realization just because they are in the palace, right? They are more attached to it. So I think what Siddhartha was able to do is able to free himself from the attachment. So which means I think Siddhartha is, Prince Siddhartha was able to inspire, inspire everyone. So there's many level of people who were able to understand his conversation.

3 generations.

So many people also need that as well. So let's say he was intending to inspire other person, but other way you can say is he realized that, okay, there is this, Freedom. Freedom is really achieved if you are able to prioritize it. So I think he prioritized it as far as I'm concerned, going into the woods. And then he was curious enough to find dead bodies, sick patients, and monks, and so on and so forth. He went to the forest, but at the same time, he is curious. What is there more than being in the palace? There must be something more. than that in the palace. So that is to find what is the real stillness is, right? So when you're stuck in the palace, you're not able to find the stillness because stillness is freedom. Freedom that doesn't trap you is stillness, right? So freedom that doesn't distract you is stillness. So in that sense, I think you can say also that Prince Siddhartha must have already realized something deeper than it is shown, because otherwise I don't think anybody will have courage to even leave. That curiosity in itself is a dynamic energy that enabled him to find the stillness.

So I think not to attach to dynamic energy is the key. And this is very profound in many ways. So there's a few different ways to look at it.

You know, we all talk about the war that we know, like, you know, which is fight for resources, minerals, like boundaries that like we as humans created. Like, you know, I fundamentally disagree with the concept of a country because country is something we created. Boundaries is something we created, right? For our own identity. We want to belong to a certain tribe. You know, we recognize ourselves like through like, you know, countries that we have formed. So that war we can understand because it's like very physical. But I think there is a deeper war that is going on. in the humanity, which is the consciousness versus infinite distractions that are going on. So how do you reconcile this? Like, what is consciousness versus infinite distraction? It's like very different than what we just talked about, which is stillness and basically being completely distracted. The consciousness and distraction.

Similar to what you just said. If you don't like the idea of a country, you don't like the idea of conditioning thought.

Yes.

So a country is created when you condition your thought. So self against other, there is dualistic conception. So that is because you are conditioning your thought. So same point comes back to the idea of why Prince that left and everything. Freedom. Is the key. So when there is freedom, you're able to experience the stillness. That is the most important thing. When do you have freedom is when you do not condition as a country, a border. So when you are free, actually in a way, this whole world is yours. All river is yours, all mountain is yours, all valley is yours. But people don't realize that. People realize, okay, this is only Between my boundary is my home. This small garden is my garden. But you have a beautiful mountain with forest, you forget to see it as yours. You are so attached to your own boundary in this flower, and then you fight with your neighbor saying, okay, your boundary is there, and so on and so forth. So these are the conditioning, conditioning. So here, most important thing is to Liberate yourself with one understanding and one medicine that cures 100 diseases. So that is to find unconditional way of being.

So this is very important. So again, comes back to same question, how and why Prince Siddhartha left and so on and so forth, is to be able to experience freedom. So it's not so much that he left, actually he gained. And he gained much bigger palace than the Tilora Court Palace that he was occupying at that time.

In the world, when we were growing up, when I was growing up, information was very scarce, right? And our information knowledge was primarily tied, you know, tied to the books we read, what the teachers told us, right? Now we've sort of like solved that information scarcity problem. But in solving the information scarcity problem, we have uncovered a deeper problem, which is meaning scarcity, right? So what is the meaning of my life? And as we think more deeper with artificial intelligence and where artificial intelligence is headed, I feel like we are going to get into this world where we are going to question— What is life? Our purpose in life, our meaning in life. Like, who are we? Why do we stand? Where do we stand? Like, we are gonna question everything because we have so much time. We are gonna be so much more efficient. So how do you, like, how do you go about this process of meaning scarcity?

Yeah. So this is already explained very beautifully by Buddha Shakyamuni, 2,500 years ago, 50 years ago, he's already explained.

Yeah.

He said, don't dependent on words and dependent on meaning. And he said, don't dependent on relative meaning and dependent on absolute meaning. And don't dependent on absolute meaning dependent on experiencing the absolute essence.

Hmm.

So this is already explained very beautifully a long, long time ago. So now this is our opportunity to bring out this wisdom and share, which with compassion Buddha shared at that time. So that's why it is still alive and valid. available today. So I think to me, that's why AI is a good thing is happening. Even though I said the AI word, artificial intelligence, is absolutely wrong. There is no such thing. As long as artificial, it could be intelligent. There's no intelligence that can come out of artificial. Intelligence must be natural. Anything that is the most natural is intelligence. If it's not natural, it's not intelligence. So now we have opportunity here. We have to bring the absolute intelligence, which I spoke in Stanford University and other places. So here, in a way, we have to now use artificial intelligence as not just as a robot, Artificial intelligence must be a means for us to bring about this really, really meaningful, so like explanations and meaningful ways to relate to life. So today I'm very, very hopeful because now, of course, many people are now using AI for a monetary purpose, which is absolutely not correct because And that is not going to serve the real purpose.

It's going to be in the same cycle of cyclic existence, right? So I think if we are able to now have much, this is why we need all the OpenAI and all the AI, all the leaders. We should have a meeting, we should have a conference, we should really discuss by taking responsibility seriously as a responsible human being. I think we should develop AI. And this is question, you know, we have right now. This kind of question is where we feel opportunity to really contribute. And if we can contribute something, I think our life is worthwhile.

Yeah. So that is the whole philosophy of angelic intelligence that we are trying to build. And like, you know, like I don't think I, I claim to be the only guy working on it. There are many people who are worried about alignment, including Geoffrey Hinton himself, the grandfather or the father of AI, however, or the godfather of AI, as people call him, is deeply concerned about where it is headed. And my philosophy was like the way I think about it is very simple. You know, I actually— this idea dawned on me when I was watching my son play in the playground. He was born during the height of COVID and so he's a very shy kid. And like, you know, he never used to socialize that well when he was a kid. Even now he has like, you know, stage fear and other things. And I used to take him to play, and I used to watch other kids play. And there are kids who are falling and playing. The AI systems doesn't understand the difference between falling and playing. So you've got to train it to see what falling is all about, which is seeing the right thing.

And then through the range of actions that I have, how do I actually come up with the right disposition of what I'm supposed to do to comfort the kid, which is doing the right thing? And doing the right thing is also subjective. Doing the right thing for me is different than doing the right thing for you. But we are all conditioned to do the right thing, and then we have to exhibit moral coherence. Every time I have to behave the same way. I cannot behave completely sympathetic on Monday, compassionate on Tuesday, apathetic on Wednesday, cynical on Thursday, and be on my phone and not even worry about him on Friday. There's something called moral coherence. So that is where the genesis of the idea was. Like, hey, can the Can the intelligence system kind of be this thoughtful, this perceptive, and can I point it in the right direction? And so that was the thought of how we came about Angelic Intelligence in the first place. And your thought seems very much reflective of that philosophy as well. Is there like something else you want to add? Like, you know, you talk about playfulness, you talk about, you talk about basically like, you know, being innocent and intelligent at the same time.

Can you elaborate on your thinking of like where wisdom-based systems should head?

Yes, this is really very, very meaningful to have this opportunity and to work with your team, your company, Angelic Intelligence, because I think now this gives us opportunity to really find ways to have artificial intelligence, which is capable of having compassion, which is capable of enhancing everybody's way of thinking, feeling, and doing things. Because this AI, which I call it absolute intelligence, is the heart of artificial intelligence. Artificial intelligence is the body of this absolute intelligence. So without the heart, even if you have body, and a body will not work, right? By having good heart, if you have a healthy body and it'll be able to serve very well, it'll be able to really find ways to celebrate. So here what I feel is, We have so much possibilities to have this artificial intelligence without assuming everything, able to exactly, precisely able to deliver as each and everyone is asking for that moment, whatever it is that everybody is needing at that very moment. So to do that, To do that, you need absolute intelligence. To do that, you have compassion in heart. Compassion to me is intelligence, right? Compassion to me is to be able to, you know— Be very perceptive.

Very perceptive and really have freedom. Freedom from total ignorance, you know? So when you are completely free from ignorance, I think you have a precision an answer to deliver which can be liberating on the spot. So this, I think, in a greatest possibility, I see it as I have told many people today when I'm traveling around and promoting peace and just peace for humanity. And many people assume me right away, say, okay, the Buddhist lama, And from the Himalayas. And some people who knows more, so, oh, Tibetan Lama from Himalayas is here, so he must be talking about Buddhism. So I am Muslim, I am Christian, and I am Jewish, and so on and so forth. So suddenly there's assumption, there's a distance. So I feel limited in a way because even though my heart is full of compassion and to deliver what I want to deliver, Because there is obstacle wall that's created by their assumption because they're habituated this way. So now we can create artificial intelligence to break through that wall. To break through wall, can relate to that person directly as himself or herself and deliver the message very kindly, compassionately, with full of respect.

And then one is able to In a way, we are guiding a child, so to speak, you know?

Hmm.

Similarly. But as you're able to guide more and more this way to this child, and that becomes his nature. So this is what I'm excited about. This is where I think we can change the way humanity is facing problems. And now they're able to find solutions no matter what it is needed. So I think this is, where we really need to work day and night and to spend our breath and our time on this. This is going to be the biggest contribution that we can make in human history. And I'm very excited about it. Superb talk.

So the risk also is that when you think about superintelligence, superintelligence can mean that we become so reliant on the systems that you basically begin to underdevelop as a human. So there's a fine balance between how much superintelligence you want and how much human development and cognitive capability we need to retain, like the residual that we want to have. Because machines taking over makes you so reliant on the machines that you stop using your own brain at some point in time.

Right.

So how do you balance that whole This, I don't see a problem. You don't see the problem?

I don't see a problem as long as we are able to deliver substantive message right now. So let's say when you go to gym, right? And there's so many tools out there and you're going to use all your tools and dumbbells and everything, right? Whatever you use, it is strengthening your muscle, it's strengthening your body. You know, tool is not going to get stronger or better because you are using them. So we are using artificial intelligence in that way. So more we are able to relate in artificial intelligence, the more we gain our own strength, more we are able to actualize our own true essence. That is where we have to go.

Hmm.

So that means fundamentally we have to have this, you know, sort of wisdom, this intelligence where artificial intelligence is here to serve us.

Not the other way around.

Not the other way around.

So it's almost like the Renaissance of wisdom.

Yes. This is very important. The most profound Renaissance of wisdom. And now, of course, again, this depends on us, you know? So next year there's going to be the biggest AI summit in Geneva. So this is where I think you and I have responsibility to deliver the message. the biggest AI summit organized by the Swiss government and international, all governments. I think we must be able to do this. And I have already mentioned in Geneva where I have this idea. We have a big advertisement board there all over the city, AI and AI. And a monk, is in Geneva who is spreading absolute angelic intelligence, right? And AI is the same that way. So I think this is where I think we need to sort of attract curiosity, where then I think we can have a dialogue in a real sense. Yeah.

Daniel Dabos and I are in touch. Daniel is a good friend of mine, so he's actually organizing AI for Good. Summit in Geneva. So fantastic human being. So I'll see you there probably.

Yes.

The central thought of death, how do you define that like from your traditional vantage point?

When we really talk about death, then we are talking about constant change that is taking place. So when we realize there is a constant change, is taking place. We have opportunity here to seize the moment. Being able to seize the moment is the ultimate way of realizing the message of death. So in our tradition, great masters, when they're meditating on death for so long, and then when the real, this physical body disintegrates and experiences death, and this yogi, these masters consider that is the biggest opportunity to celebrate. So all the time you are experiencing this change and you are really rising to the occasion. Now this is ultimate final chance to rise to the occasion. So it's very, very profound where you are able to depart from this world without regret, without remorse, without anything you feel, okay, I have not done and I have left something to do. So this is a very beautiful way to be able to, so like leave from this world without any trace is left. So that opportunity is to really obtain the body of light. So in that sense, there's really exhaustion of your karma. When there is exhaustion of your karma taking place, You're able to experience the body of light, not this exhaustible body.

Rather, you are able to integrate into real body that's full of wisdom, full of compassion, and full of light.

And fear?

Fear disappears because fear only exists when there's darkness, when there's confusion. So when there's no confusion whatsoever, there's no fear because there's nothing that you do not know, nothing that you don't see. What you see is what you get.

So fear is like seeing the unseen.

Yes. Fear is when you are unsure. Whenever you have fear, you are unsure of something. And that's as simple as that. And when you're sure of something, you don't have fear because there's nothing to fear when you have clarity.

So your mother gave you up for the lineage. Did you ever talk to her about like what she had to go through? When she was basically like, you know, someone came and said, hey, like your son is gonna be like, you know, this chosen one, the reincarnate that needs to be trained. Did you talk to her about the psychological state of mind? Because like, you know, obviously you have siblings and none— are they also like reincarnates or are they doing the same thing or are you the only one who's doing it?

Uh, no, there's a, One reincarnate recognized one, but he did not follow the path in a similar way as I am today serving humanity in this way. But it's very interesting thing is since my parents and my family was in this lineage and spiritual family, it was a great honor for them to have their son and have a responsibility to serve humanity. Even today, my mother's worry about me is not how is my family and how is herself, am I taking care of her or anything like that? Her worry is always make sure you are able to serve everyone and with the kindness, you're able to really deliver your message effectively and make sure You don't have any obstacles to reach wherever you need to reach to deliver. So her concern is always about humanity. Her concern is about helping other people. So in that way, I'm very, very fortunate to have been born in the family who embrace a spiritual way of being.

Buddhism and corruption.

Well, there is corruption in anything that has to do with ISM.

Buddhism.

Buddhism. You know, Buddha is not corrupted, you know, as long as you are Buddha and as long as you are able to have that quality and there is no corruption. As long as it becomes some kind of institution, it's kind of a man-made creation, there's corruption for sure. And not only Buddhism, but every other religion or any other isms, institutions, there is corruption, which is in a way disadvantage to oneself because usually you do not need to be involving in any corruption as long as you are able to realize how rich you are. You are able to experience the abundance of life. So then where do you need to have corruption? Why do you have to involve in corruption?

So this, the, the, the peace society that you're creating, uh, how are you trying to immune that from like corruption? Because every time you create something, yes, and you are the, you are the, the founding father of this, right? Um, idea, you know, you'll, you'll typically tend to have a parenting effect. Like your grandfather only taught like your father 90%. Your father taught like you 90%. Like you teach your son and 90%, and all of a sudden, like 4 generations later, they forgot like what you really created it for. And if you have like 1,000 years that you wanna last, how are you gonna prevent like corruption in the, you know, in the thinking?

So this is the exact idea. Peace must be built on the foundation of unconditional love. So it has to be unconditional. This is why I feel that it billion people must embrace this peace. So in our tradition, we have a saying in the lineage that son is greater than father, grandson is greater than the son, great-great-grandson is greater than a grandson. So my wish is, you know, son is better than father and grandson is better than and our son. So this is the reason we have a responsibility to do it. So this is why I just established Universal Peace Sanctuary Foundation in Geneva. And the reason why I started is, of course, we have finished 25% of the project, so to speak, physical project, which is a small project right now. When we talk about global Universal Peace Sanctuary Foundation means I mean, it's like a huge, huge, huge project. Probably there's no other project than this size ever you can imagine if we are all ever involved. So I want this to be totally transparent, professional. So we just started in Geneva. So why? Because I want people like you and everybody involved now from the very beginning as a founding member.

And how we did it, And to start this foundation there, you need to deposit 50,000 Swiss francs. And we borrowed that 50,000 Swiss francs. And then we have to pay a lawyer's fee and we borrowed that lawyer's fee. Reason is we will pay back, of course, with donations and support. But thing is, each and every penny received and every penny went out. We can, whole world can see through blockchain, through blockchain technology. So nobody can corrupt this idea. So this is why from the very beginning I have started in this way.

Mm-hmm.

So this is where many people who are watching, you know, your audience, tech experts, I need your help in making sure this blockchain technology is used in such a way This can be never corrupted. And this is the last resort, last refuge. If this is corrupted, then there's no other hope. So we have to make sure. And a very good question you asked me.

Thank you.

And we want to make sure this flourishes in every place, everywhere, in everybody's hearts and mind.

Very good. So I'm going to ask you some rapid-fire questions. The single most important instruction you ever received from your teacher?

Always make sure you give others to win. Make sure you always take the loss.

One practice you would give to a person who has only 5 minutes a day?

Always make sure in that 5 minutes, Try to have at least 10 times you're able to be in the moment.

Got it. Buddhism in one word.

Person who is with kind heart.

The text from your tradition you would save if all of the world's information is lost.

The Treasure of Phenomena.

Treasure of Phenomena. The greatest obstacle to enlightenment in 2026?

Self-deception.

Smartphones, enemy of the path or just the latest version of an old enemy?

Latest version of old enemy.

What was the old enemy?

Old enemies are distractions such as attachment to anything.

All physical devices anyway. AI, a teacher, a tool, or a distraction?

Yeah, it is a tool.

Is it distraction now or is it a tool?

It's a tool. It's still a tool.

Okay. The fastest thing you yourself do that you suspect would slow you down?

Travel as much as I can now.

The country today that has most in the need of Dharma?

I think every country, every country around the world needs Dharma.

World leader living You would like to spend the most number of hours in silence with?

That's a very good question. I have to think of a word. Maybe Donald Trump. It's a good one.

Lumbini in one word?

Sacred. Most sacred place.

The food you cannot resist?

Not pasta.

Mango.

Food I cannot resist. Maybe if I'm in Hyderabad, biryani.

Biryani. The last time you laughed until you cried?

That I have to ask my phone records.

The teacher other than Chhatral Rinpoche, who shaped you the most?

Teacher other than Chhatral Rinpoche who shaped me the most is my father.

Is your father. The thing I know about the human mind that I wish I had known when I was 20 years old.

Be patient.

So for everyone who basically says that they don't believe in anything anymore, What would you tell them?

It's okay. You do not need to believe in anything. Believing is living in the past, but being is the most important. When you are being, you don't necessarily have to believe in anything.

And one last question for you. Have you, if there is one thing that you want to reemphasize that we haven't covered today, In the whole conversation that we had so far, what would be that one thought?

I think we covered in a, in a quite a bit. I think a little bit more on meditation itself.

What would you want to communicate there?

I feel that every human being must be able to spend few minutes in silent meditation. No matter how busy you are, I think it is very important to give yourself a little time to be alone, and that itself is going to enrich you and give you some kind of perspective. And this is what I want to say. And so everyone try to give yourself 5 minutes, if not more, 5 minutes of your life to yourself alone, without phone, without anything. Just to be yourself. And this is my sort of like a request to all of you.

His Eminence, uh, Rinpoche, like it was an amazing, amazing pleasure to spend the time with you. We spent so much time, so much ground, uh, and I can continue this conversation for a lot of time, like a long time. But, um, unfortunately we have to come to an end. Um, but what a fascinating conversation. I really enjoyed it. I'm sure the viewers are gonna enjoy it and they're gonna actually be participating in your journey as well. I wish you the very best of luck.

Thank you very much. You have been very, very gracious and, uh, I was very happy from the beginning till now where I am able to share and you're able to invite many things from within me. And I'm very happy that we have this opportunity. And I pray that we will have more time and more opportunity to share in-depth conversation and share with the rest of your audience.

Absolutely. Thank you. I want to take your blessings.