Transcript of The Mountains Choose You: Araceli Segarra on Adventure & Resilience | Shekhar Natarajan

The important thing is not reaching the summit, it's the person you became.

I feel like God has given me this gift to keep defeating death.

When I'm climbing, I don't need to fake.

We're all going through something turbulent in our life, events that redefine us.

I picturize that in some way we are all alpinists of life.

Welcome to yet another episode of Tomorrow Today with Shaker Natarajan. It's my real honor to actually have Araceli Segarra. She's the first person to actually climb Mount Everest, and Spaniard, first Spaniard to do that. Her life story is like simply superb, amazing, beautiful person, and I want you all to get to know her. Just like the way I'm excited to know you too. So, uh, with that, um, uh, Araceli, please welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. Actually, it's my honor after seeing all the things you have achieved. Um, I think this is going to be very interesting.

I haven't achieved as much as you did, like Um, but I'm, I'm like, you know, I was so looking forward to it because, uh, I think your life and who you are as a person, uh, how you have processed life in general, uh, is going to be a source of inspiration for many because we are all going through something turbulent in our life, uh, events that redefine us. Um, and that resilience, courage, risk-taking, uh, that comes so naturally to you. Uh, I want everyone to embody that beautiful spirit. So like, you know, that's why I was, um, very excited, very, very excited when I got to know that like you're gonna be in the show.

Well, the, the truth is that, that I consider and I picturize that in some way we are all alpinists of life. Uh, as you said, we all go through same, um, let's say expeditions.

Yeah. In life. Yeah.

We have projects, uh, we have hopes. Sometimes we have fears. Sometimes we go, and nowadays even more, through uncertainty. Uh, we have people that inspire us. There's moments that we lose hope and so on, so on. So we all climb mountains.

I think one thing that we should never lose is the soul.

Yeah, but yeah, I agree that we approach things with that inner energy. And maybe with all the culture that we belong, and even sometimes with the ancestors' concepts on your genes.

Mm-hmm.

Like things that we do and we don't know why we do it. Um, but I also think that situations and obstacles that we find on our way sometimes can redefine—

Who we are.

Who we are, yeah.

Awesome. So before we get to Mount Everest, before, uh, we talk about Um, you know, your, um, you know, the very tragic incident that happened while you were climbing, uh, and the rescue operations and other things. I want to get to know you as a person. Um, Catalonian girl, uh, overseeing the Pyrenees and basically climbing the mountains all day long. Um, so I wanted to get the soul of who you are. Like, what— like, you know, tell me, like, take yourself back to when you were like 4 or 5 years old and tell me, like, what was your life like? You know, who's your family? Uh, how was your upbringing? Why did you start, like, you know, fascination for, you know, climbing and— I'm just like so curious about you.

Um, you know, I belong to a very, um, middle family, not having a lot of luxuries. Um, but at the same time, I think that because we didn't have luxuries, we didn't have boundaries. It's like Anything can be possible. Um, and I was, and I'm still, I, a very shy person. It doesn't mean that you cannot develop some skills to survive. Um, but I always was very curious and, uh, stubborn.

Where does that come from? Your mom or your dad?

I don't know. I have no idea. And I was afraid of dark, of darkness. I was really, I have a really deep frightening feeling for darkness. And maybe because of that, I was attracted to it. And that's a very weird thing because I was trying different sports when I was really a kid, like, uh, athleticism, like jumping, like doing canoeing, um, all kinds of stuff until I discovered spelunking.

Hmm.

And my brother was letting me do a course. Hmm. Which was getting into the darkness, the deepest darkness of a cave. And, um, because that loving for the things you hate, I was just immediately connected to the outdoors through one of my deepest fears. But the thing is that, um, I overcome that fear. after like the whole month that that course, uh, was teaching me how to deal inside the caves with ropes and all that stuff.

Mm-hmm.

And I got just passionate about the outdoors and about the concept of adventure and overcoming all your fears. And from doing that sports on the Pyrenees, uh, being free because, uh, You know, my family was like, my parents were working all day. So you don't have those helicopter fathers, you know, the ones that are controlling you and knowing what you're doing all day, teaching you or letting you know, or telling you what you shouldn't be doing.

So you had no boundaries whatsoever.

Exactly.

Mm-hmm.

And in one hand, you know, my generation, we have some, the lack of some, let's say, connection with our parents. But on the other hand, we have the freedom because nobody was telling us, don't do this, it's too dangerous. So I'm balancing those 2 things, but I'm really thankful, uh, to belong to that generation because I was able to explore and, uh, try things that otherwise—

It's very difficult.

Yeah.

Very interesting because like, you know, we share some commonality there, Araceli. So Like, I come from a very humble family too. And the thing that I used to love the most is basically spending time with my father. And my father's time was very— like, it was a small window of time I could spend time with him, right? He would leave at 6:00 AM in the morning on his cycle, go for work, and then come back at—

Yeah.

like 8:00-8:30 in the night. And then he would like— he had this ritual, like, you know, he would come and then he would take a shower, go to the temple, come back. Then I get to spend like that 9:00-9:30 or 9:30-10:00 window, and I used to sit on his lap. And we used to, you know, you could literally see like the Moon from the house, and then like you talk. That was the happiest thing I had in my memory. And my mom used to work for a newspaper company.

Hmm.

And she was not educated as such, not a lot. So she used to wrap newspaper for the next day delivery. They would like print and cut and Like, you know, and then she would, like, you know, she would prepare it for the next day. And so I could see my mom and I would be playing on the streets, like, you know, free will. Like, I used to play with tires, with junk.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, like scrap metal.

Yeah.

All of that. And then I used to— I was doing the same. Like, trying to go for a treasure hunt with, like, the kids in the slum and then, like, all of that. And then I would see my mom from a distance. You know, she would be, you know, obviously like, you know, she would walk, uh, and you could see her at a distance. And then I would run like crazy fast, um, calling my mother's name out and then like running into, into the house. Because for the longest time I thought my grandmother is my mother and, uh, my mother is like, she's like my sister.

Oh yeah?

Yeah, something like that. So I used to call her by the name. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I used to run literally to the house and then I would pull my book and my brothers would be sitting and studying and I would have my book upside down.

Pretending?

Pretending that I'm studying. And then she would Come right by, and then she would say, okay, I think this is how you study.

And she didn't punish you? You know, one of my memories— you just say that and remind me, um, it's been just a few times because my mother was all day away working, and I remember sitting in the balcony.

Waiting for her?

Of the little— no, on our little apartment, in a raining day. And my mom was at home. And she and I, we were sitting on a chair, eating a sandwich.

In the rain?

Looking at the rain outside. And Before, back then, there were no buildings in front of my house on that apartment, and we could see the Pyrenees from home. I mean, they are far away, but we still could see it.

A glimpse of it, yeah.

After that, they were building apartments and the view was completely blocked. But you just say that and it reminds me like, A few moments, a few memories, like sitting on the balcony on a rainy day eating a sandwich with my mom. And that's one of the nicest memories because, uh, they were never at home.

Yeah, they were never at home. And like, you know, I think, um, that's the beauty of what mom and dad do to you, right? Like, so, and like, like to your point, like, because you don't have luxury Um, you know, uh, there's no boundary to what you could do.

But otherwise, on the other hand, um, that was teaching me also to work hard for the things you want. Like, I don't know about you, but I couldn't get the things I wanted simply because I want them, because they were not able, able to give them to me. If you want something, you gotta earn it.

Yeah.

And, um, I thank my parents for that.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, you know, so like, you know, we used to have, uh, um, growing up, like we used to have very few pairs of, uh, clothes that we would wear and everyone, so in, in those days also in India, we used to stitch. out of a piece of cloth. Like, you'd take it to a local tailor and they would stitch. And like, so every one of our— like, I have 2 siblings and all of us used to dress up the same way.

Yeah.

The same color, the same shirt, the same pants, right? Like, you know, the same trousers. And like, one used to be taller, one used to be shorter. So like, you know, someone's trouser was longer, someone's trouser was shorter. So it was all like funny. But like, you know, like I look back at all those memories, it's like fantastic and fascinating. But But those are beautiful memories. And to your point, the reason why I bring up the book story is I got fascinated about sitting and studying because of that. I would see, I would run in fear, and then I didn't know what else to do. I know she would love seeing me study, and I would sit and study. And that sort of became my mental model. I want to please my mom. My mom needs to see me studying.

Mm-hmm.

And so, I got very much into education and how I train myself through education. So, we all have our formative days and their experiences that actually define who we are. Very beautiful story. I love what you said. So now, let's basically go back to the the age from where you were to then becoming who you were as an adult, as a teen and an adult? Like, how was that transition? Like, you know, like, so you said you were stubborn, you said like, you know, you wanted like to explore the outdoors, you know, darkness was a fear, but you had to overcome the fear and that like, you know, you started loving the nature because of that. So what happens after that? Like, tell me, like, how did you prepare yourself?

Um, you know, climbing, it's not something that I choose. Um, I would say the mountains choose me.

Ah, um, how did you feel that?

Um, It's kind of weird to explain, but I guess there's more people who had that kind of feeling. Is when I'm climbing, I don't need to fake.

Hmm.

And we all fake, more or less. Like, we hide.

Yeah.

I'm shy and I'm hiding that. When I'm on a mountain, you don't have that. I don't need to hide anything. Like, for me, there's not a different, a better place to just—

Enjoy.

Enjoy and release and grow. and test and learn. I mean, it's the place I belong.

So how, um, so how is that like? How do you— what is the feeling inside when you, when you have that? Like, what do you feel?

That I can try and fail.

And, uh, that's when you feel like you're with something.

When I'm climbing, I can try things and I can fail.

Yeah.

Um, and as I said before, I don't need to fake. I don't need to cover, uh, use makeup. I, I, I say it in a metaphorical way. Um, because nature, It's not judging you. And society, it is constantly in a lower or in a higher level. You know what I mean, right?

You are so right. And like, you know, and we fall victim to how people judge you. Because sometimes when the closest ones judge you, Um, or your friends judge you and they, you know, that is not who you are, or you feel that is not who you are, or—

And we play the game.

And you're projecting that, like, and then they, like, you know, you feel sad or you feel like you played a game. Um, so it's sort of a self-validation theory.

It's, I mean, there's not many, many people you can be surrounded with that you just stop faking, like, when I'm climbing.

Do you always— do you think people always fake around people?

Yeah.

Mostly?

Yeah, yeah, real fake.

So what about, like, people who say, like, you know, I have deep friendship with this person, I feel like I can talk to them anything? Are they lying?

It's not— I don't think it's Like, um, conscious lying.

This is unconscious.

Like, yeah, yeah. It's, it's like the role we are growing with. Um, it's like, I, I feel myself pretty confident. I don't need to hide anything. I don't earn, like, I had no debts, metaphorically speaking. But somehow it's like somebody asks you, how are you? Maybe I'm not—

Feeling well.

In a very best mood.

But you say, I'm good.

And say, It's not because I want to fake it. Sometimes it's like, well, let's bring the spirit up. The way I talk to myself.

Yeah, yeah.

It's important too. But, uh, the truth, if we were like being honest, I will say, you know, today everything sucks. Like, you don't want to keep going, but you don't say that. So from the point you do that, You're faking.

So, because that's the distinction I wanted to draw. People often confuse comfort with confidence.

Yeah.

So you're comfortable around people, but you gain confidence in your true passion of what you do.

Yeah.

And that's sort of like a blurred line that we somehow assign, we say, hey, like, you know, that comfort feels like, you know, they're one amongst us and like, you know, we are not faking, but we're deeply actually faking. And then the confidence is like when you feel like you're part of something and you belong and you don't have to like re-express yourself.

That's the—

The fine line.

Yeah, the fine line that is, you know, sometimes they ask you, why are you climbing? And, uh, well, I gotta say that, uh, of course, because that's where I belong, because I can release my soul.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, but the truth is that also it's like it's been changing, the answer. The answer for that when I was a teenager, it was not the same answer that when I was, uh, an adult. And it's not the same answer that when I'm aging. Of course, there is a common—

Great.

Um, link, but it's developing. And, uh, that's an interesting also, um, feeling, not being, being always the same boring person. Like, I climb because that reason and always staying on the same state, developing, changing, adapting, being flexible to your soul, exploring. Uh, it's part of the magic of being alive.

So then you transition to become a physiotherapist. And then climbing was your passion.

Yeah, I gotta study something because—

Why?

Because my family also, nobody has a degree. So you need to please your parents somehow. But I never stop being like dual, like, okay, I can go to school, but I can also do my passion. And, um, well, it was a kind of a balance for a time, but then, um—

You cannot be a physiotherapist and then be a climber.

Yeah, you have to take a decision and, uh, put your energy in where you are good at.

Got it. But like, how do you balance that with livelihood? Because physiotherapy is like you keeping you alive because you gotta eat, you gotta sleep. And then if you're just climbing, you cannot eat nature. You can, for some people.

You cannot eat rocks. Some people think we can, but no.

Or like snow.

Yeah. Well, when you're young, you survive with, um, really having— yeah, you don't need much. And if you're sharing apartments and all that stuff. But, um, I was very young, just barely finishing school when I got that proposition to do an IMAX documentary to climb Everest. I was very, very young. And, um, I take the, the, the opportunity.

Um, why did they choose you? Like, you are not like, you're not a camera crew?

No, no, they, they, they want me to be, um, on the crew, on the, on the, on the film crew, but, uh, in front of the camera. Um, you know, I was on Everest in 1995. I was trying to climb the north side of Everest through a—

What age were you at that time?

I was 25. 25.

But like, you know, when did you finish your physiotherapy?

I was finishing, but—

At that time.

Like then, yeah, at the time. And we were trying a very difficult line with a very demanding style, which was alpine style. We wanted to climb the Horben Couloir through to Everest without oxygen, without fixed lines, and without Sherpas. Wow.

I mean, is this the 8,000 feet, like, peak that you first climbed, or?

No, I was, uh, when I was 21, I was on Broad Peak. When I was 22, I was, uh, on Shishapakma. Uh, so I was—

You're climbing?

Yeah. Okay.

Why did you get fascinated by Mount Everest?

It's the highest mountain, so you cannot get higher than that.

Was it a conscious thing? Like you wanted to try that or?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When we were on that '95 first expedition, we were so young. Uh, we were so, um, how you say, um, unconscious. But you do those things when you are young, because, uh, if you wait to be 30-something or 40, probably you will not dare to try.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, I'm so proud of have tried. We didn't summit on '95, but because I was on that mountain, I met a filmmaker who was testing an IMAX camera.

Hmm.

That was David Breashears, the director of the IMAX documentary. He was testing a brand new camera to see how he will deal with that 6 months later on his Everest expedition.

Mm.

So he met me on the Everest Base Camp, but on the north side, which is on Tibet side. And he thought that I would be a great part of the movie, so he invited me. to that movie 6 months later. But the interesting thing is that, you know, some people used to say like, oh, how lucky I was.

No, you prepared for it.

Yeah, but we crossed ways. Yeah, I prepared for Everest, but our paths just crossed.

Yeah.

One moment, one day, one place. And I take that opportunity. It's like how many times we have opportunities that they cross in front of us and we are afraid or we are not prepared, of course. But there's a lot of taking the risk and you do that. I, now I realize that you do that more often when you are younger.

Younger.

Because you are not carrying your rucksack with fears.

Anxieties, uncertainties.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but preparing for Everest is a long process. Like, you know, like people go through that. Like typically, like how do you prepare for Everest? I'm very fascinated, but I don't think I can do it.

Oh, you think you— no, we gotta talk about that. Just keep that in mind. We gotta talk about that at the end of this.

Yeah, I'm gonna say I'm gonna climb Everest.

Yeah.

Yes, good. That's why I wanted people—

Um, our, our team didn't really prepare for Everest. We just climb. Yeah, we have one goal, but it's like what we want is to become better and better and better, stronger and stronger, with a better mindset, with a better attitude, with a better team relation. That will take you to Everest.

Yes.

But, uh, focus in what you are achieving while you are getting better. Because sometimes you lose energy, uh, focusing just in what's on the end and not in what you are doing right now.

Hmm.

So it's like how you prepare for Everest. Just being as best as you can each day.

In the moment.

Yeah.

Interesting. So, because I know, I know of a lot of friends who actually climb the base camp and they prepare for months actually to get there. Like they're hiking and hiking and they get the energy so that they could hike. The reason why I said I don't think I can try to climb Is I have this condition of heart called bicuspid. So I have only 2 valves.

Okay, that's a different thing.

Yeah.

That's a different thing. But if you didn't have that, what will be your—

I think I'm usually a daredevil. Like, I don't care about anything in life.

Okay.

I usually don't because, you know, so I came to death so many times, close to death so many times. And each time something saved me, and I don't know what. So, I feel like God has given me this gift to keep defeating death. And he'll take me when he wants.

Mm-hmm.

So I don't need to figure out like when I'm gonna go. Like whenever, like it is meant to be, I will. Uh, so I don't process that. Like, you know, so I, I remember like, like literally like, uh, 2005, uh, November, like 2004 November. So I was in, um, I was going to, uh, Maryland because, you know, there was this company called Managistics. in Hagersfield, no, Bethesda. So basically they were headquartered there and there was a training for the software that I was sort of rolling out for the company. I was working for Coke then. And then I got— it was a very bad trip. So going in, I hit a Bambi.

Oh!

Like I just touched it and like, you know, the poor thing died because I barely nicked— because it just came right in front of me and they like— You just hit it? And then I kept driving and my boss came and then we actually got it like the car, my car repaired for 2 days and so that it was in a driving condition. Then I come back, while I'm coming back, like, you know, I actually hit a puddle of water on 395, literally at like, you know, 3:30 in the afternoon. And my car starts spinning across a 5-lane highway, and I was missing the oncoming truck, a Mustang. I was literally like, you know, I was holding my steering wheel and I was like staring at like death, literally in front of my eyes. And like, I missed everything in a millisecond. And I went and stopped on the brake lane. Like, the oncoming traffic is this way. I stopped on the brake lane and I was like shocked. And then I didn't know what to do. Then I called my brother. I said, this is what happened. And he was like, okay, so you made it.

That's okay.

You know what? That's exactly the same feeling. I got when I'm climbing, it's perspective. When things like that happens, it's like you get the perspective. And the bad news is that we tend to forget. So of course you will not try to get an accident.

Willingly, knowingly, yeah.

But I go back to the mountains. Because it gives me that perspective that what's really worth it and how to keep on that, um, state of conscious.

Mm-hmm.

Sometimes people get it by education. Some people are just got that gift naturally. Uh, I climb to, to, to have that, uh, remindedness that every morning wake up and just be grateful for the—

The life you have.

Yeah.

Because you will never wake up again. That's like if you're not meant to be. So yeah, so like, you know, I like, I would have, I'd probably would I have climbed? I still probably will check with the doctor.

But you don't need it.

No, if I can, I will. But I think that condition actually, I think it may work out for me. I'm hypothesizing right now because what it does to me is slows my heart rate down. And it feels like it's the heart of an athlete because the heart of an athlete is slow. So people used to think I'm very athletic. I'm like, I'm not. Sorry.

doctor for a check, they ask me, do you run marathons?

Like, why is your heart like doesn't pump as fast as like others? Like, and like, you seem to be extremely quiet and like, you know, serene and all that. I'm like, I'm like, not that.

Well, but it helps you somehow to get to the same mental—

Yeah, the amount of stress I put my life through and all of the, you know, machinations that happen in my head, like about like how to do like 15 things to like take care of my family and this and that. And like I take on more things than I can do. Like my mind is such a cluster of a lot of things that I think like the slower heart actually helps it because the stress could actually kill me.

Right.

So I think it's sort of like my body's way and nature's way of trying to rebalance the heart and the mind.

Well, some people will say that if they will have what you have, it's a curse. It looks like you think it's a curse.

It works for me because it basically— because my mind always is functioning. I cannot put my mind off. And that restlessness of doing things causes more anxiety because you want to keep doing something. And that, when faced with a lot of uncertainty, you become very nervous and you become anxious and you get paranoid. And I don't experience that. Yeah, that's a gift. That's a gift. Because of my heart. Uh, it's like weird, like, you know how your mind and your heart—

It's because of your heart, but, uh, it's like you can, it's like you are a climber without being on the mountains.

Yeah.

Because you say it's because your heart. I don't agree with that. It's because your mindset, you create a way of thinking. certain habits because your heart, but, uh, it's your mind, the one who's leading you to choose and to take those decisions. It's not your heart choosing, it's your mind. So that's what I'm doing on the mountains. The mountains, let's say, let's say that are like the heart you have. And it's my mind that chooses how to deal with uncertainty. I mean, actually uncertainty, it's there. It's not uncertainty that we need to avoid because it's been there always.

Mm-hmm.

This will be like trying to erase the weather. You cannot erase the weather. It's there. You cannot erase uncertainty. It's there. The only you can do is learn how to— Deal with it. Deal with it and have the right mindset. So your heart is your mountain.

Beautiful. So you and I were talking prior to the, you know, getting on the show, and you mentioned that you were the 22nd woman at the time you climbed Everest.

Yeah. Everest.

So what did it feel like? And I'm sure like there were a lot of men who climbed.

Yeah.

And I, and I see that your book was signed by like Tenzing Norgay.

Yeah, my really good friend Tenzing.

Yeah. So was he your Sherpa?

No, I mean Sherpa, it's, uh, it's his, um, um, I don't know how you say in English, that race.

Mm-hmm.

He's Sherpa because those are his ancestors, but he didn't work as a Sherpa. He was working as one of our climbing team. And we summited Everest together and we create a really nice bond from that. And then he He wrote a few things, really nice things. We got a really good time. I mean, Jam Ling, it's a brilliant spirit. And he wrote a book, it's called Touching My Father's Soul.

Mhm.

And I always picturize that image. I mean, I create it in my mind. that he was climbing Everest to be closest to his father. And it's like, I can see it. So that's jumping.

So being in a field where, or being in a space where women are not allowed, like, it feels like it's a man's world. that like you are sort of getting into. Did you feel that at all? Like, you know, did you feel that it was different or like, did you have any inhibitions? Did you have like people saying, why are you doing it?

Or— I got that feeling in different expeditions. I gotta tell you that on the Everest IMAX expedition, it was completely different. You know, David Breashears, the director, he was, and of course the producer company, Maggie Lavery Freeman Films. They were putting a special energy to make a gender equity team. We were 2 men and 2 women in front of the camera.

Hmm.

But on the producer side, there was also a few women. Actually, there was a 60-year-old British, um, historian expert. She was Audrey.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, so can you imagine, uh, this team was gender equity, uh, we were from different, uh, countries, different ages. Like, it was trying to prove that you don't need 4 SEAL Marines to climb Everest and bring the camera up. What you need is different ways of thinking.

Really?

Because that's what will, uh, uh, solve the problems. It's not your muscles that will fix a problem. It's approaching, uh, one problem from different points of view. your culture, your gender, your religion, your age will help to change perspective.

Hmm.

And what you need on a project like that or a different project is, uh, to solve problems while they appear. And you need a tight team. It's not about that you will not have problems. It's about—

How do you get to find solutions?

Can find solutions quickly without escaping to talk about that, to create in a safe environment. And If people come from different places, it's adding those. Because what, as I was saying, what, why I want 4 people from the same place, from the same age, with the same amount of muscle, thinking in the same direction? Like, you know, one of the best advice I got from a climber once, about rock climbing. It was this idea that if you are trying a move 5 times and there is not improvement, why do you keep doing the same move? But if everybody thinks in the same direction, that's what will happen. Some people think— people thinking from different ways. So the thing is that David Breshears was really, uh, convinced that, uh, bringing that IMAX camera to the summit of Everest, it was not about muscle, it was about different ways of thinking.

Fantastic.

And he, and he proved it.

He proved it. Yeah. So, um, that is a very interesting point you bring up because I think there are 2 aspects to it, right? Like, I think like, you know, the diversity of thought That you're talking about. The second is basically that sense of purpose and bonding that you have, right? Like that you create. Because you could simply have a team which is super dysfunctional, different perspectives, and you make no progress.

Yeah.

Right? Because everyone has an opinion and no one wants to basically listen to the other person. So I think the sense of purpose and the sense of mission and the fact that like you're all there together to— and to look out for each other gives you that sort of like the mental kind of switch.

Yeah. You know, it's not easy to keep— it's not easy to have a group of people turn it into a team.

Yeah.

Because a bunch of people, it's not a team.

Yeah.

It's a group. Uh, you gotta find ingredients and feed them. As sometimes I, I got that, uh, comment about our team that they were saying, oh, why, how, how lucky you were also because, uh, you got Jomling that was paying a lot of attention and, and making the Sherpas, uh, feel part of of the team and created the bond. And you have Ed, who was so conscious and so taking care and putting everybody together also. It's like, well, a team, it's not the consequence of being lucky because you got special people. It's the consequence of feeding. It's like your partner, your loving one. A relation is not about finding the love of your life. It's about feeding the love of your life every day. That team was the same. Of course, David was making a really good job finding everybody for this team and putting it together, but then it's each of us' responsibility to be generous, to know how to say things, to give information, uh, to be empathic, to ask you, how are you?

Mm.

Or, how you feel today? What can I do for you? Paying attention to the things you need. I see you were having, uh, um, a milk with tea. Paying attention to that. And tomorrow when you get in, I will bring you a milk tea. Like trying to understand you and being generous or asking you, getting that information. So those are a few ingredients that you need.

Um, but you don't pay attention and do that when you don't feel that sense of belonging. Like you don't feel that connection. Like the purpose that drives all of this.

Yeah, exactly. That's, that's why David was making such a good job. I mean, I don't consider there is like good people or bad people on a team. Yeah, there's just different frequencies.

Yeah.

And when you pick up the people for your team, you gotta find the same frequencies because People are on different frequency. Yeah. And you know what I was asking David when we finished this project and we were in Laguna Beach, a completely different scenario, drinking margaritas. He was teaching me what was a margarita on the rocks. I was asking him, um, because we were doing the post-production of the, of the movie, um, I was asking him why he picked up all the team, like, like he wanted me on this team when he met me. And he said something I didn't like.

Hmm.

He said he didn't want the best climbers on the planet for this expedition. It's like he didn't want the best talent, but he fixed it. Otherwise, I would kill him. Like he said that he wanted the people able to work together.

Adapt.

On the best level. Because when you are able to create that synapses, um, you can go farther. But the most interesting thing is that you survive longer. It's like, like organizations. It could be a crisis outside and you keep holding, you hold. If you're alone, you're dead mentally. Like, you run out of energy and you give up. But if you have a team to rely on, you survive longer. And, uh, we were able to survive after the big crisis we had on Everest.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, Actually, it became even better because that connection was taking the best of us.

Mm-hmm.

And I think we create extra energy knowing that there's somebody next to you that loves you in a different way, in a certain way, but at the end, should be some love on the groups, on the teams.

Interesting, interesting. So, um, that's a great, uh, segue into like life at the base camp. So how was it?

Oh, it was non-stopping. Um, We were filming all the time, uh, and there was just a few days of resting.

Um, how does the logistics of this work? Like, how do you, like, like, how do you, uh, uh, basically get the camera and the battery? And like, you know, where do you charge? Like, like, because I'm like, I'm sure like till you get to the base camp There was a huge strategy work before having everything ready.

Regarding the camera, the camera was— the average of the weight of an IMAX camera, it's 48 kilos.

Wow.

You cannot carry 48 kilos.

You don't look like you can carry 48 kilos.

No, 48 kilos is me. Nobody wants to carry me to the top of any mountain. Um, but the engineers of the IMAX—

Oh, I thought someone can carry me, like, looks like I'm like shit out of luck.

Yeah. So the engineers of the IMAX that were based in Canada, they create a lighter camera for this project. It was a 24-kilo camera.

I got it.

Still heavy, but it's something to start with. And you know what's the hardest thing in any project? You gotta know It's the first step. Once you give or you make the first move, the first step—

You're gonna get the confidence.

And you became unstoppable. The first step was convincing some engineer to have a camera and say it, okay, we needed half of the weight. And so they create a better, a more mechanical camera, not digital.

Mm.

Because it's easy to run and it doesn't get frozen. And the whole camera, batteries, tripod, everything, it was made in 5 rucksacks. And each Sherpa was carrying a different rucksack. And every time we have to take a scene, we spend 1 hour building the camera. The camera has to be open, the film has to go in, then we close that kind of light box. And it took about 1 hour.

Wow.

Just to prepare everything to film 30 seconds or 60 seconds max.

And you would have vantage points where you would do that? Like, were there vista points that you would shoot the 30 seconds, or was it just random?

It was kind of between random and, uh, and choose. It's like we were creating the thing while it was happening. Of course you have a plan, but how many times have you seen a plan being followed?

Yeah.

From the— never. It never happens. It's good to have a plan to just improve it. And that way of working was matching my soul. Because I think it's better to— this uncertainty, I prefer my skills as being flexible than having a certainty. Now I create a mindset, a mentality that If I know what I have to do in every moment, I get so bored. Like the interesting thing is not knowing what's going to happen. That's the pure soul of adventure. Because if you—

It's scary too. It's scary too.

No.

It's like adrenaline or?

I mean, if you take the 2 concepts, what's the definition of adventure? Not knowing what's going to happen. And what's the definition of uncertainty? Not knowing what's going to happen. Then it's like, why people love so much adventure and they don't love uncertainty? It's the same.

You're so true.

What happens? It's where we put the attention.

Yeah, because one we have associated with a negative connotation, the other one we basically assign it to a positive like, um, feeling.

Exactly. And, and you know why is that? It's where we put our mind. Uncertainty is like thinking all the time about a future.

And the possibilities.

Yeah. And, uh, and of course there, there is an anthropologic, I don't know the word, anthropological, answer for that. Like, we humans, we are made, we are being made to survive, not to be happy. A human being?

Hmm.

Humans being, we are not made to be happy. We are made to survive, to procreate, to exist. And in order to do that, our brain, is fixing all possible—

Options.

And X scenarios that can be danger. But now we don't need that. So our brain tries to fix things that never happens. Like, I, once I heard that sentence, which is brilliant. Uh, it was, I think the author was Michel Montaigne. He says that his life was full of big tragedies. Most of them never happened. That's where our brain—

Really?

Blasts on uncertainty. Instead of just saying, okay, I don't need certainty. I need being flexible and enjoy whatever happens. That's adventure. And we can manipulate our brain. To get there, to the adventure. All the time.

Yes, yes, yes. It's a mind game. It's a mind game.

I mean, I'm sure you've been going through that.

Yeah, I go through that all the time.

And how you fix it or how you deal with that?

I don't think I'm perfect.

Of course, nobody is.

So, you know, So, I know when I'm not— I know the distinction between adventure and uncertainty, because I know the reactions of uncertainty and adventure, like the bodily reaction, right? So, when I'm uncertain, my body's reaction is to basically become more stressed, more worried. And that worry actually causes imbalance of my cortisol in my body. And I know my body feels different. And what do you do when you are in that state? Well, what I try to do quite often now is it's very difficult. Like, see, I'm not Gautam Buddha to park my mind and say, I'm not going to worry about it. So I do get into that state. And then, so I sort of wallow for a few minutes, few hours maybe. It depends on how bad or how much I assign that probability of something going really bad and all that stuff, the mental machinations you have. But then I pick up things that I really love to do. I would say, hey, let me basically start writing something interesting, or let me paint.

You take your brain—

And then point it in a different direction.

Out of there.

And so I say, like, you know, maybe I like— and then I get into this deep mind state where I'm physically conditioning myself not to think about it. Like, I'm so focused not to think about it. And then I get to that state where I have lost the thought about it because I'm thinking about something else.

And then you find options.

Then I find options. Then my mind is at peace. Then I come back to that thought again and I say, oh, you know what, maybe that's the solution. So most of the times, I process really well in deep stress, in the sense, when things are very uncertain, my mind tends to be brilliant. Because of this whole thing. Because I know I can find a solution when I get to that state. And then I get the solution because your mind already knows that there's a problem. And then the solution lurks somewhere in the space. You've got to just find it. If you keep searching for it in anxiety, you're not going to find it. You've got to search for it when your mind is calm.

So you say you like to paint?

I like to paint.

I like to paint too.

Yeah.

I got more or less the same state that when I'm climbing because it's an exercise of mindfulness.

Yeah.

Like you are there, but you don't allow your amygdala to kidnap your prefrontal cortex, which is the one will allow you to get all those ideas. So, exercise, that's the same. Yeah.

And people have different ways to kind of like do that. Like they have to recognize what works for them and then get into that state. You need to know, first you need to be aware that that's happening to you.

Exactly. That's the first. That's the most complicated thing. Like, don't be taken by the current and being on that forever. So the hardest thing, I really agree with you, the hardest thing is to step aside and let that water run and saying like, okay, now I'm on the other side, let's see what we do.

Yeah.

But while you're inside of that water, you will drown.

Yeah.

You will drown if you don't Step aside.

Yeah, yeah. So that's like, that works a lot. And like, you know, but there are times, and then like, you know, in those times when I'm not able to get out of it, like, as much as I try, uh, then I find, uh, the person that I trust the most to share. So in this case, Uh, it would be my wife, uh, who's a deeply empathetic person. She's like amazingly empathetic, uh, like she's like a saint. And, um, then my mentor, uh, my next-door neighbor. So these are the 3 people I sort of tend to go first. That's my, that's my comfort.

Yeah.

It's not my confidence, it's my comfort.

Yeah.

And then I basically express myself to them. And they know that I'm trying to express myself. And what they have also done is they know that I am going through that phase. So they are not providing judgment, but they are basically like— You'll nail it. Yeah. They are just letting me be who I am and trying to be a listener. That way I could get it out. And they know, like, once it's out, either they can react to it, or they could, like, just let me go away and they let me do my thing, and then I come back to my state. That's—

You just mentioned what, for me, it's what in a team that we were talking about before, Um, a team where there's already empathy, uh, uh, generosity, and communication, when you upgrade that team to a very, um, high-performance team. And the ingredients you were saying, it's, um, a safe environment. You were looking for that safe environment. It's a place where you can talk and nobody will judge you, a place where you can make mistakes. And that's the only way to fix things quickly. Yeah. And, uh, high-performance teams make mistakes, but they fix them very quickly.

Yeah.

Why? Because people can talk. And where a team where there is silence, there's not creativity, there's not improvement.

Yeah.

You need all those ingredients. And nowadays you need that high-performance team because it's very agile. You need to fix things quick.

Very quick.

Because like the speed of what is surrounding us, We haven't seen it before. So you need that, a safe environment.

Yeah.

Otherwise, you will not enjoy life.

Yeah.

And I don't know exactly why we exist, but I think we agree that the best thing we can do is enjoy it.

Yeah, it's so beautiful. So, How do you get acclimatized to get to the Everest? Like, you know. Yeah.

Well, you know what is so interesting with that? Our body gets used to the altitude. So—

Why do you feel the pressure going down and you're having more palpitations if you're walking high? Physiologically, There's a—

Way of working is as high as you go, there's less pressure. So there's less oxygen. That will be the quick way to explain it. Because physically it's another thing, is the partial pressure of the oxygen, but it's kind of complicated. An easy way, simple way is there's less oxygen because you go higher. So your body needs an amount of oxygen to breathe. Like, I don't know, let's say every time I breathe, I need 10 molecules of oxygen. But up there, every time I breathe—

You need 20.

There's only 5.

So my body Needs to keep more.

Needs to keep more. So what our body does to compensate that lack of oxygen is creating more red cells. The red cells are the ones who transport the oxygen. So if I have more red cells, they can grab a little bit more of oxygen to compensate it. Okay. Our body does that naturally, but it needs an amount of time.

Mm-hmm.

It needs at least 3 weeks to build those red cells. Once it's been 3 or 4 weeks, if you stay for 3 months, it will not get better. It's like, that's the limit. It changes more things. It changes the pH of the blood, the blood, many, many different parameters. But if a doctor takes you a test in altitude and it reads all that information, they will say you are dying, but you are not. The thing is, our bodies has an amazing ability to adapt. Ability to adapt.

So when you fall sick, do you have to take medicine?

Of course, I take all the drugs I can.

I thought your body has a way to recoup.

Yeah, I mean, there's no difference.

Yeah, because people usually say when you have a flu, don't take a medicine, it will clear itself out. It does?

Work. Not for me. I guess everybody is different. But you gotta— to climb Everest, to this project, you have just a short period of time. You cannot— maybe you can just wait and clear yourself naturally, but of course that will take you longer. And if you want to be ready for the day There is that, uh, window of opportunity to climb. You gotta— you wanna be at your best. And, uh, if you got a flu, you just take the same medicines you will take here.

Got it.

Yeah, there's not a difference about that.

Got it, got it. No, no, I was talking about flu as a bodily reaction in the sense, like, I'm not talking about flu in Everest, I'm talking flu in general. If you got a flu or you, you know, you had a cold or whatever it is, sometimes the best thing to do is like let your body like just kill it.

Yeah, yeah, here you can do it. But when you are on a project so demanding and time constrained, and, and, uh, there's that, um, rush because there's no more options. Yeah. you try as much as you can to, uh, to be ready, be at your best. Yeah.

Very good. So, um, the night, the night before the main climb, the, the day before that, talk to me about the tragic incident and the rescue operations.

Yeah.

Um, what really happened that day?

What really happened in 1996, nobody knows. Because every single person back then has a sense of their reality in a different way. Like, we don't experience reality the way it is. We experience reality the way we feel or the way we think.

Mm-hmm.

So on May 10th, there was a group of climbers trying to reach the summit of Everest.

13 of them, right? 1-3. 13 people?

No, no, there was a bunch, a large group of 2 commercial expeditions trying to reach the summit of Everest. Some of them, they didn't even reach the summit. And others did very late on the day. But, you know, back then there were not weather forecasts.

Hmm.

And there was a big storm that showed up out of nothing. That was like the water drop that overflowed the glass because probably there were some mistakes on that strategy.

Mm-hmm.

There was people who were not strong enough. Other people were not prepared. Other people didn't wanna go back after a limit line of the day. But sometimes you make mistakes and nothing happens. Sometimes we—

Make mistakes.

a car and there's not another car coming on the other direction, you know? And we were like, oh, thanks God. We just make a mistake, but nothing happens. Well, that day there was a truck coming on the other direction.

Mm-hmm.

That was bad luck. That was the storm. Mistakes, mistakes, mistakes, bad weather. And the whole thing Turned out to be that tragedy that killed the life of a bunch of people.

Mm-hmm.

And we were at Camp 2 on that point. And we hear on the walkie-talkies, and we were kind of— you can see from Camp 2, you can see a little bit of the last part of the mountain. And we saw the storm, and we heard on the walkie-talkies that things were going wrong. So we start realizing that there was going to be accidents, that there was going to be a big problem. We didn't imagine it was going to be that big. So on the walkie-talkies, we were telling people because late at night, we knew that people were not coming back to the tents. which means in the middle of a storm, you're up there at, I don't know, 50 degrees below zero, winds that were 130 kilometers an hour. You know, nobody can survive at 8,000 meters. You cannot survive on the Pyrenees. Come on, how are you going to survive up there? So we were telling people that they can, the ones who were arriving, in very bad conditions that they can get inside our tents and grab our food, our oxygen, whatever they need. Because our tents were ready on that last camp because we were going to go in a few days for filming and to reach the summit.

So the whole thing was a mess. I mean, there was a lot of confusion. there's missing information, the things that happens. I mean, it's been 3 years since that. Uh, your mind also creates stories.

Yeah.

You know, like, uh, fortunately I was writing everything down on my diary, so I don't change my story. But everybody has different Story. Tales, yeah. And it's the way people were living that. So we were going up to try to rescue whoever was needed. And finally we reached Camp 4 and we were helping Beck Brothers go down. Beck Brothers was one of that one of the most injured guys, he spent the whole night backwards on the ground, lost in the middle of a storm. He was kind of blind because the cold and the wind was— Hitting his eyes. Yeah, hitting his eyes. And when finally we reached that camp and we find out that whole mess, we were carrying him down, literally. And it was a huge effort.

How many people did you guys rescue?

I don't know. We were helping some of them. Of course, everybody was— I mean, we ran out of all our equipment. all the food, all the tents, all the oxygen we had for the filming was gone.

Wow.

So we didn't have equipment for our summit bid later on. But for me, one of the greatest let's say, way to show— for me, one of the greatest exposures of a human being was what happens while we were doing the rescue because we couldn't carry big weathers through one of the parts of the mountain. It's the icefall. It's a very dangerous place. It breaks, there's crevasses. So we cannot carry— we couldn't carry him down. And, um, somebody called for a helicopter. And, you know, back then the helicopters didn't fly, didn't land, because nobody has tried it.

Yeah.

Well, I'm lying. Yeah, somebody has tried it in 1982, but, uh, the helicopter crashed. So nobody's going to try to do something that, uh, it was labeled like impossible. But you know, there was a, a pilot, a Nepali pilot, the Colonel Madan. He dared.

Wow.

And, uh, you know, how much can you achieve by just trying? He said like, okay, let me try. And he did something that nobody has done before. He was emptying the helicopter. He was rid of the seats. He was just flying with a little bit of fuel. I mean, he was a really smart guy. He was very talented.

Hmm.

Also piloting. But he got the attitude, the saying, let me try. And he saved the life of 2 people.

Wow.

He saved the life of Beckwithers, and he came back from another one. But for me, the most powerful picture I have from this Colonel Madame is that now, nowadays, there is rescues, and you hear that there's been a rescue on the Himalaya with helicopter, and you don't get surprised. Because there was this guy.

Who did that.

That once was the pioneer and was risking.

Like Tenzing.

Like Tenzing. He was the first one to reach Everest, showing that it's possible. But, and after that, everybody's going to Everest. But who's the first one? Who dares to break that uncertainty, the fear, and turns that fear and that uncertainty in adventure?

Wow. I'm so glad that I'm talking to you because, like, you know, I'm going through a little bit of a turbulent phase with the company I'm trying to build, and I definitely needed to hear this because, uh, um, because when you're, when you're the first to march a certain direction, then, uh, uh, people are always gonna have, uh—

Will disappoint you.

Disappoint you.

Or will crush you because nobody has done it.

Yeah.

What it means that nobody has done it. Well, am I going to be the first one?

Yeah. And I And I tell myself, you know what, like, what am I going to lose if I don't try? Like, you know, what's the worst?

Oh no, it's worse.

Yeah, the worst is basically like having the regret that you didn't try.

Exactly. Yeah. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. At least you will feel that satisfaction. That's what I was telling you at the beginning, that, uh, on the mountains, I don't fake. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

And I'm gonna give it another try because you're still alive.

Exactly, exactly.

So I think it's all perspective. So, um, uh, so, so tell me, uh, this, like, so now you get to the, uh, to the, to the Everest.

After the tragedy.

After the tragedy.

Yeah, because after the rescue, we needed to go down and rest. I mean, we were exhausted, we didn't have equipment, and, um, we gotta recompose ourselves. Um, some people say like you gotta— you lose motivation. No, that's a very classic concept.

And you have also fear.

And you are you have, yeah.

Because you've seen death.

Exactly.

Yeah. I gotta tell you this incident that happened to me. So in Grand Canyon, there's something called Skywalk.

Yeah, I've been there.

Yeah, so me and my wife actually went to Grand Canyon. I think this was 2009. Yeah, 2009. So we go and then basically we view And then we saw some kids walking out and going to the top of the other side of the mountain. When you get out, you can walk up the hill. And so we saw everyone going and we thought maybe everyone is going and so we should also go after we are done. So we just go to the other side and we start walking. And then we go up and everyone is coming down. And I'm like, we are wondering why are people coming down? But we haven't actually gone up. So we start walking. And then it starts pouring on the top of the mountain, and it's like red sand. And it's like the wind is blowing at you. And we both are holding our hand literally tight.

Yeah.

And telling each other we love each other so much. And I don't know what happened to us. Then all of a sudden we said, let's both sit down and then walk down on our back.

Yeah.

Literally crawl, sort of.

Yeah, crawling.

And we somehow, I don't know, magically we got to the bottom again without getting— and it was like 4,000 feet up in the air. And like, you know, we— so I, I know, like, so like, and my wife, I remembered very distinctly like what she was wearing because like, you know, we also took pictures that day and like, you know, all the pictures were gone because it was rain and everything. And she was wearing a white pant and like all the whites, it became red. And then, uh, and literally because of the fear, like we had like stiffness of leg. Like our body's reaction was to get stiffer.

Yeah.

And it was paining.

Yeah.

And we felt this extreme pain and stiffness afterwards.

All the adrenaline that was keeping you alive.

Yeah, like 5 days, she literally couldn't move for 5 days. And I was feeling very odd for 3-4 days. Uh, as well.

And then like, yeah, you need some time to recover.

Yeah. So that fear actually gets in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And like, you, you just think like, you know, hey, like, there you go again. You must have lost your life.

Yeah. And, and, and, and, you know, the cortisol, yeah, that, uh, you create, which is harmful. Yeah. You need to get rid of it. The good news is that we were doing a sport. And exercise, it's one of the— The beautiful things. Best medicine for stress to get rid of. So we were having that situation already on the gym, which was the mountain. So it was helping us to get rid of that cortisol that will collapse it. But But you know, you don't climb these mountains with your muscles, actually. You climb these mountains with your brain.

Brain.

With the power of your thinking, the control of your suffering. And you gotta kind of twist and loving suffering. I know it sounds weird, but it's like you gotta learn that the only way to get satisfaction is through pain. But not because it's painful, because any effort is painful.

Mm-hmm.

The nice thing is to sit in the coach.

Yeah.

And be so comfortable.

But also, like, I think sometimes you have to not panic and exercise a sense of, like, presence, like, in a situation. Because, like, we didn't— like, you know, had we been both standing, we would have got blown. Because we sat, we are not going to fall down, right? And then we were able to walk ourselves down. So that's like, I don't know how we did that. Like, it was just like literally sat down both at the same time and then we started walking.

We have that instinct, surviving instinct, um, that once in a while, I mean, it just kicks in. You don't need, you don't need it in this society, but when you go to the Grand Canyon or Everest, You will need that.

The presence of mind.

Yeah.

So then you climb the mountain, and then what was the feeling when you get there to the summit? Like when you look at the summit?

Summit is nothing. Summit is not there.

Up and down?

Summit doesn't really exist as a memory. Because you got nothing. You're on the summit, but you gotta go back to the base camp. There's still a long, long, long way.

So you hardly spend seconds trying to be there, right?

On the summit. Normally you spend just a few minutes on the summit. We spent a few hours because we were filming.

Filming, yeah.

So we got a—

A few more.

Yeah. I got the chance to take a nice view again and again and again.

Yeah.

But a summit is like a symbol. It's what drags you, what makes you move.

But once you get there, it's done.

No, it's not. It's done when you go back to the base camp. But, uh, for me, the important thing is not reaching the summit, is the person You became knowing that you will be able to reach the summit. Um, so once I get to base camp, yes, there's a photo of the summit, but there's a broad photo of where I make mistakes. Um, where I was daring all the things I was learning while I grow to reach the summit.

It's all the experiences.

And that's what it's useful. If you ask me, what do you use the summit for?

To gain experiences.

But the summit is not a tool for anything. What happens on the way, it's a tool for many things, mistakes included. But the summit is the, it's the, the, the, the north that my inner compass use to get to keep moving.

Got it.

That's why there's always many summits. That's why some people, the blind people say, why? Well, after you climb Everest, there's nothing else. Oh, there's many mountains, many norths to keep navigating.

Interesting. Because, uh, because people also process failure, uh, very like in a negative way. And I, I keep telling everyone that they should not because that also has the same, like, you know, you should focus on the experiences you gained when you couldn't get there. And then what would it mean to try again?

I think they don't deal with failure. They deal with self-esteem. It's not, not reaching the summit. It's how will I look, how, what I think about myself, what the others will think about. So as much experience you get, which sometimes is just the amount of failures you are accumulating, uh, you care less.

That's why I fail often.

Because you don't care, because you have that safe environment. And that's why people achieve great goals, because they keep trying and trying and trying. It's really rare having somebody who at the first try, they achieve something. And the people who give up because of that, and there's a lot, they don't keep trying because they feel ashamed or they feel vulnerable. They are the ones who will not succeed in a bigger scale or the ones that probably they don't have a safe environment. They don't have a friend, a neighbor, a wife, a mentor that can talk with. that can get contagious of that acknowledge and, um, try again.

Yeah, yeah. No, this is like so phenomenal. So, uh, the movie—

The Everest IMAX movie.

Yeah, how was that?

Well, you know what, I tell you something. First of all, it's the best—

This conversation is so nice, like I hope like it never ends.

I know.

Yeah.

Well, you know a good thing from this Everest IMAX documentary? Besides Liam Neeson, it's the narrator, and he says my name.

Mm.

Oh, you know what? I didn't know it. And when I got to the theater the first time we saw the movie, just, I heard Liam Neeson saying, Araceli Segarra from Barcelona. Oh, and I melt. I mean, it's one of the best things ever happened to me.

Not in the Big Everest.

Anyway, let me focus. Let me focus on this. You know, this is the best IMAX documentary ever, the one that has more bills. And, you know, there is not images of the tragedy. How can it be possible? You know what people like to click. You know what people like to go and see. They like drama and tragedy. There's no tragedy in this movie.

Hmm.

How can that be possible? I guess that what people were buying, um, With trust. I mean, you can trust our team. We give everything. We put our summit in risk because there was humanity. And I think that's the last thing we should risk to lose, humanity and gratitude.

Wow.

So beautiful.

What do you think about AI and humanity?

Um, you know, I think AI can do the, the how. It helps you a lot to the how. But, uh, it will never tell you the why. You, I will always know the why. And AI can help you with the how. And, and also, you know, nowadays, comparing to climbing, And to mountaineering. We need a lot of data and AI works with a lot, with a lot of data, but the risk will always be there. And we knew how to deal with risk.

Mm-hmm.

Fear and risk. And for, it doesn't matter how many data you have, the risk will always exist. And we know how to manage that.

Don't you think like, um, we will begin to rely so much on things That we will not use our own cognition.

Yeah. Yeah.

To solve the problem.

Yeah. I think, uh, we shouldn't stop, um, exercising our judgment. It's not about AI to judge my thoughts. It's like, I'm not going to ask for opinion. I have to keep my own opinion because we need to have different points of view. If you unify the whole data, there will be only one way of thinking. And that's the magic of diversity that we have to keep exercising. Our judgment and our opinion. We have to keep exercising social relations. Um, data is a great tool. Um, but we need to manage and learn how to use it on the right way.

So what leadership skills are needed in the world of AI?

What skills?

Yeah.

Curiosity.

And?

More than curiosity?

You just mentioned it.

What did I mention? Judgment. Oh. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought the question was another one. Um, And, and, and, well, what I think right now, you know, everybody's talking about that uncertainty. And, um, I don't see why, why it is such a problem. Uh, I think that the main question is, If we are able to keep the path to acclimatize as fast as the technology is going. So what is the point? It's the fatigue that it's creating, more the uncertainty. As I was telling you, trying to erase uncertainty is trying to erase the weather. You cannot erase that. What you have to do is learn to live and enjoy this uncertainty. But in order to keep the rhythm of how fast is this technology going, which is how we acclimatize, if we acclimatize too fast, we will fail because we will not get our bodies on the optimized conditions to climb this mountain. Maybe we need some help. Maybe we need to slow down.

Hmm.

But, um, they were saying, uh, a long, a long time ago, no, that the future is coming, the future is changing. Well, now finally, The future is, uh, how it was, the way it was told. It's changing, it's going fast. Maybe we can use some oxygen to get used to this altitude faster. We need some tools, create them. I don't know. That's the beauty of it.

Yeah.

But, um, I will not be afraid of Yeah. Um, I will try to control the risk.

Got it.

You know, I don't think it's danger. For me, danger, it's that object, that thing that can cost you damage.

Yeah.

Risk is the probability that that damage occurs.

Got it.

So, you can control the risk. And one thing can be danger if you cannot control that risk, maybe using some oxygen from the point of view of a climber.

I wanna do some rapid fires with you. Rapid-fire questions.

Okay, okay.

Everest in one word.

Wow, Everest in one word. Life-changing.

Life-changing. The most dangerous moment you've ever been in?

Avalanche.

Avalanche. K2 or Everest? Everest.

Everest.

The mountain you have not climbed that you think about the most?

Nameless Tower.

Nameless Tower. The most overused word in corporate wellness program?

What was that?

The most overused word in corporate wellness program?

The most—

Overused word?

Uncertainty.

Uncertainty. The most underrated survival skill?

Gratitude.

Gratitude.

Fear—

Oh! An adventure?

Hope.

Hope.

Okay.

Fear, is it a friend or an enemy?

Oh, a loving friend.

Loving friend. Best advice anyone ever gave you before a climb?

Oh, I think I told you. If you keep move— doing the same move without progress, maybe you should change the move.

Beautiful. The leadership quality that matters most at altitude?

Don't panic.

When to turn back, instinct or calculation?

Experience.

Which is instinct, sort of, comes through.

Instinct is the accumulation Of experience. Of experience.

Yeah. The leader you would most want on a rope with you, besides me?

The one who laughs all the time.

Cool. Well, I'll keep laughing.

So is you.

Base camp or summit?

Wherever there is the coldest beer.

The thing you miss the most when you're on the mountain?

Nothing. Nothing.

Complete this sentence. The most important thing the mountain teaches you?

To be alive.

Well, my friend, It was like such an honor.

Mine.

It was like—

Climbing partner.

Like, it's like such a beautiful experience. Um, and I think I needed this the most, this session the most.

Thank you.

Yeah, it was like fantastic, phenomenal.

We got our rope here.

We got our ropes. And I want to have you again.

Yeah, let's plan it.

Yeah.

I'm serious.

I'm serious too. So let's do that.