Transcript of AI, Trust & The Future of Work | Silvia Leal on Innovation, Cybersecurity & What's Coming Next | Tomorrow Today

I'm like Don Quixote. That was before, because I fight and fight and fight because I want people to understand and feel what I feel.

What is the role of the government on technology? And what EU is known in the rest of the world is it's considered an innovation killer.

With artificial intelligence, Everything is going to change again. It's starting at the beginning. We have a re-skilling urgency, but nothing happens.

If I had to build the same company again, I would build it no more than having 7 people in the company.

The problem is that they get in your company They stay there. They wait, they wait, they spy, they get information, they get data, they know your projects, they know everything.

Welcome to another episode of Tomorrow Today with Shekhar Natrajan. It's my great pleasure and an incredible honor to have my very best friend Sylvia Lyle on the show. Sylvia is a futurist, an amazing tech communicator, super nice soul. You have won like so many awards. You're, you're considered one of the leading figures in Spain when it comes to technology. Um, you know, she's an influencer, thought leader, opinion leader, um, the list goes on and on and on. But beyond all of that, She's one of my best friends, and I'm very happy to be here with you, Sekhar. I'm like, I'm super honored to be here. So, um, without, uh, further ado, like, let's actually jump into like, who is Sylvia, and like, what does she do, and what makes her unique, what are, what is her special, like, you know, secret sauce. So I would love to go through all of that and, uh, get to know you more and have my audience know and appreciate who you are as a person?

I will say that I'm a person who has a lot of passion for everything. And of course, I have a lot of passion for technology. I, and I like what I do. I feel I'm very lucky communicating what I feel. And I think we will have a nice time here. Because we'll be talking about technology, employment, about many things that I really love.

You love that. Yes. So tell me this, Sylvia. So like, you know, like your degree is not in technology. No. It is sociology. Yeah. Right. And so nothing to do with tech, nothing to do with change management. But you're so fluent in all of this and you basically represent OECD. You're part of like the EU Council, like you're a futurist. How does that all happen? Like, this seems to be like so divergent, right? Sociology versus technology.

Well, it has sense because in fact, my degree is in economy and my PhD is in sociology, but my whole career is in technology. And I never decide that, but it was life that said, Silvia, your place is this, your place is this one. And the point is the following one: when you talk to an engineer, when you are working with an engineer in a digital project, they have a mind focused on data, coding, speed. And people with the sociology view, we focus on feelings, we focus on people's lives. The impact on technology. And this is the blind spot in the project, because when a project doesn't get the expected results, 90% of the time it's because of fear. So why I'm working with the European Commission, the OECD, and so many companies, because I'm like a seatbelt for these projects.

Got it. Got it. Got it. So, so tell me more, like, you know, how you got started in life. Like, what was your, what was your formative years? Like, how do you know technology so well? Where did it start for you?

I started working for Bridgestone Firestone, and then I changed to SAP. I was working for SAP twice. I was working 3 times. I decided I needed new air, so I went to work for a company called Holcim. And then I got bored because I needed a lot of projects, energy, and everything else. So I went back to SAP, and from SAP to Banco Santander and Instituto de Empresa, i.e., business school, at the same time. So I was very happy because I had 2 jobs at the same time, Banco Santander and Instituto de Empresa. So then I wrote a book about technology. It was a bestseller in Spain. And I started to work like a Spanish speaker.

Got it. Got it. Got it.

Got it. Very funny, very intense, and very hard.

Very hard.

I'm sure.

I'm sure. I'm sure. So it doesn't surprise me because you're not only Spanish woman who has a lot of energy, but also—

I was in peace because I'm like— You know, I—

Women in general are very multi-talented. Men cannot even write and cook at the same time.

Well, in fact, in January this year, in January, I wrote my new book in one month, in 20 days.

Wow.

And I think it will be another bestseller. I have a book with 18 editions. Oh, wow. And I think this will beat that one.

Very good.

I'm sure. So I like my job. I have passion. So I work.

Besides like working, what do you do?

I have two kids, teenagers, and yesterday I couldn't come before because I went to a concert with her. So I really work as a mother, and I love studying all the time and spending time with my friends.

Very good. So you're considered the successor of Pancet by ABC, like, you know, actually quoted you that way. How did that happen? Like, what was your feeling? Because it's such a big honor to be considered that, like, particularly like in Spain and being a tech leader and like being visionary there.

Well, Ayuntamiento de Madrid, Madrid's council, said that I'm like Don Quijote. That was before, because I fight and fight and fight because I want people to understand and feel what I feel when I talk about technology and when I work with it. And what happened with Eduardo Punset was that the media realized how intense I was with my messages and how much I try to get people to love technology the same way I did. So they decided to put me that name, and it was a mix of feelings because it's, of course, you feel a lot of pride, but a huge responsibility because he was a giant and he got us to love science. So I try to keep his fire alive, but in technology. And focus on trust, trust in technology, because I know you like that.

Yes. So tell me about your journey from IE Business School to RTV.

It was a sense of urgency because I was working with 100 people, 200 people, and It was evident.

What is RTVE?

I was working with IE Business School as a director of the programs, the IT and innovation programs, and I decided to change to television.

What is RTVE?

The public television in Spain. The most important one.

So you're like a journalist too, huh?

Yeah, well, also I had my own TV program. It was a series. Of, yeah, 8 episodes. And I was traveling all around the world and they said, Silvia, you have to put on the table 100 people you think are so special you would like to interview and put in your program all around the world. And I went to see Tesla. I couldn't meet Elon Musk, but it was amazing. And I moved because I wanted people in Spain, not only in Instituto d'Impresa, to understand what was going on.

So what was that experience like working for RTVE?

Oh, that's a master class, because when you are in your classroom, they pay to listen to you, and they know if they want the title, they have to listen to you and do everything. But when you are on the TV, you have 3 seconds before they decide whether to change or not channel. And you have to be very good with the rhythm, your body language, and you need a very good story. And you need to get into the, the heart to move to the brain, even in an IT program, because I was talking about technology all the time. So how was a masterclass? It was an amazing experience and it was like a master. To become a speaker.

So that 100, so how many companies did you visit? 100 companies or 100 like tech leaders in the—

Well, I had several courses, but about 200, more or less.

200.

Yeah.

And so what did you gain out of that? What was the pattern in all of that?

Well, I was the director of the programs and sometimes I also was responsible for some. Last year, for instance, I was responsible for closing the important, the most important programs at IE Business School, and they were the masters. But they were CEOs, they were CFOs, they were CTOs, people with a lot of money.

But what was the learning from that exercise for you besides like Getting exposed.

I work for IE Business School, 10, 12 years. And the exercise was, or what I got there was a lot of contacts and so many things, knowledge, because sometimes I went to the classes and I got so many things and many friends and businesses.

Got it.

Got it.

So you actually then moved to OECD. Yeah. European Union. Policy rooms?

Well, with the European Union, I have been collaborating since— I think I've been there about 15 years, more or less. Right now I'm working—

So what do you do there?

Yeah, I'm advisor, and right now I'm working with a project. I'm working on a project related to the impact of artificial intelligence in the retail and food industry. Last year, the impact of artificial intelligence in the automotive industry.

Got it. But like, what is the impact?

In food, we were talking about how to change the habits, the impact in how we cook, the impact on how we sell, how we move people to eat more proteins. We talk about insects and artificial intelligence. That's crazy, but it's very interesting. And I have been in quite a lot of meetings about how to work with artificial intelligence to make people understand or not whether to eat insects or not to eat them. Because if you change the way in which we eat and we live, we change so many things. And because this is also very important for the—

But how is artificial intelligence— what is EU trying to do Because it's not EU's job to basically figure out like what is getting grown.

They are trying to understand how it could impact. Got it. How we produce, how we consume.

Got it.

How we sell, how we'll understand the impact of eating this or the other thing. They are trying to understand the whole scope.

Got it. So you are providing thought leadership on the impact of AI.

Yeah.

But obviously there are positive impacts and there are negative impacts.

Both.

And so how do you talk, how do you think about deciphering what is positive impact and what is negative impact?

I know I, I always give both.

You give both?

Both. So I give both and you choose. And with the European Commission, when they ask me, I give both impacts.

Yeah.

So what happens is that I'm—

but you're not a food expert, so how do you come up with like Because I talk about producing and artificial intelligence, selling and artificial intelligence. Got it. So you talk about producing and artificial intelligence, but like it's a very complex topic. What are the second order, third order, fourth order impact? How do you know that?

Because I'm not the only expert there.

Got it.

We are a lot of people with many disciplines, many countries, and we talk and talk and talk and they create reports.

You create reports. So I learn a lot.

Okay.

So when you, when you create those reports, what happens to the reports?

They publish them and they send them to the governments and my name is there.

Okay. And then once you do that, what does the government do with that?

Sometimes nothing but this information.

Got it. Who's, who's commissioning those studies for you to spend time there as an advisor?

Yeah.

So you're going there, you're spending time, you get paid for it, or is it just voluntary work?

I pay for it when I travel. If I do it online, I don't get paid, but it's prestige for me.

Got it.

And a lot of knowledge because I know what will happen 5 years in advance.

Got it. So it's basically voluntary work that you're trying to do for the girl. Very good.

Beautiful. But when you travel, you get paid. I mean, I used to get paid. It depends on the project.

Can you get me into YouTube?

No.

Why? I like to get paid.

I have secrets.

I love to get paid.

Like, this is like, I thought I'm your best friend. I will put you in contact with them.

I thought you're my best friend.

It's through consultants.

Got it. Got it.

No, no. I will give you some names, but I know you don't need them. You have a lot of contacts there. Everyone knows who Sekhar is.

I don't know. Well, I I think like you should go tell my wife because she thinks like no one knows me.

Give her my number and I will let her know how many people is very happy about your job. Yeah, thank you. What you are doing every day.

Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Thank you.

About values and trust.

Absolutely. About values and trust, for sure. So when you, so one of the reasons why I was actually asking you all these questions is See, there's a lot of discussion about the role of the government. What is the role of the government on technology? How do we— should the government enable? Should the government regulate? And what EU is known in the rest of the world is it's considered an innovation killer, not an innovation enabler ecosystem, right? Because they try to basically force regulations even before the technology arrives, with the worry that it is going to impact people. And, and so, like, it's very critical for people to know that that is not their intent. But basically, they have a process to understand how information is sourced from subject matter experts, understanding the positives and the negatives, and then how they go and kind of enforce it. So tell me a little bit about like the, the places where you, how long you've been working with EU?

Almost 15 years.

15 years. In 15 years.

The age of my first son.

Wow.

Yeah, that's why I was calculating.

Yeah, yeah. So 15 years you've been. So of the 15 years of like contributions that you made, what are the biggest contributions that actually came to life with the EU that you worked with?

Well, I know they send the reports, the government analyze them, and I was working about a, with a project called eLeadership and those were recommendations for small companies. And I know some interesting things came out from that project. And I have also been working— I was the speaker of the group of education in the eSkills program in the European Commission. I think it was 7, 8 years ago. And I was the person who was talking the result of the group. And I think It worked because the messages arrived to the governments. But the European Commission is too focused on risk, on frameworks, is too focused on safety, on protecting, and it's fine, but it's killing not only innovation but companies. Because I'm an investor in some companies and we develop software, and it's not possible to protect it. You have to go to the United States, you have to come back, you have to pay a lot of money. And it's like a book. They protect your software like a book, at least in Spain. And I'm not very— I can't say very good things about regulation in Europe and in Spain because it's killing innovation and it's not helping people understand the incredible moment we are living, because it's all the time about risk and protection and not about opportunities.

And I don't like that.

But it is ironic that they actually like engage in the process of entertaining thoughts. But like, you know, so why can't like people like yourself and others go and express dissatisfaction or provide like alternate ways of thinking about it and see like, you know, how to change the system because it's critical. Like, you know, so there is like leadership and there's victimship, right? So like, you know, like, so how do we, uh, what do you think like, you know, uh, role of someone like you and others should be in guiding you, uh, versus basically like, you know, they being stuck? Because I, I firmly believe that there is— see, I also believe in what they do because if it is go— if it goes like really crazy, like the way it goes in United States, more harm is created than good. Right. So while like innovation is beautiful, you cannot like be innovating. You cannot be driving like an Autobahn with like no seatbelt, no steering wheel, no brakes, and everything is flashing like, you know, 100 kilometers an hour, but you can't control the car and it is basically running at 250. You're going to just go and crash and die.

So you have to balance both. So how do you think we should solve that problem? What do you think is the answer here?

Well, I can't say they don't listen to me.

They do listen to you.

They do. For instance, this year, the Mobile World Congress, I was the person opening on Wednesday the Spanish pavilion. So they listen to me, but it's not enough. They should also try to push this knowledge, these ideas, this motivation on the public. And they have so many things to do. They give money.

They give money.

We had the digital kit, Kit Digital, and they give money to the companies. So they move to artificial intelligence, they create web pages, whatever. But they pay you to do something. They don't motivate you. So I think they should do something in the media. They should do something with the leaders, with the politicians, the people, the CEOs of the companies. It should be something general coming from those people who understand what's happening. Many people understand what's happening, but they are not putting this on the schools, universities, and has to be solved.

See, while the system is imperfect, I'll give you an example where there was a very tangible impact I saw, and I'll talk to you about the approach we took, and I want you to critique it, you know, whether, like, what do you think about it. So there was a massive problem with Katrina. When Katrina happened, the Hurricane Katrina, a lot of disaster, like a lot of communities got destroyed because of that. And like, you know, it is very deeply personal to me because I also know, like, you know, when I used to work for Walmart, there used to be a picture right outside the supply chain officer's office where basically the Walmart trucks were lined up all the way, right? Almost like several miles to go help people in need, right? And it was the, the, the most proud moment everyone talks about in Walmart. Like, they— no one called for it, but the, but the private parties went and kind of helped. Okay, so based on that, when Obama became president, what he did was something brilliant. So he said, I'm gonna bring all the private parties together and I'm gonna bring all the public parties together, right, like FEMA and others, and I'm gonna have them engage in tabletop exercises, not just for Katrina, but if there was a massive disaster which happens, like let's say, like, you know, someone drops a nuclear, uh, weapon in Potomac River, we need to know exactly by the minute when the entire country is going to shut down.

Because Potomac River is not like— it's in the east, but at what point in time the entire country is going to get impacted because of that. And how do we bring private parties and public parties together to respond? What's the role? What are the connections? Who are the people? And how do we simulate all of this as tabletop exercises. And we used to run those tabletop exercises with specific methodologies, which is how I got involved in it, for almost like 7 years. And we created a lot of artifacts on how to respond, where he— because he firmly believed if the public got into— if basically government got into it, it would basically prevent the private parties from acting because that picture of Walmart was the reality. Walmart responded, not the government, right? So if basically the private parties are involved in the process, they know their duties and responsibilities. How do we go about it? So it was a beautiful example. I don't know if like, you know, they continue to do it anymore or like what happened to it, but I was there when like Obama was there like for almost 8 years I used to represent the private sector and a lot of good conversations that we had.

So like, I think that sort of— what do you think about that sort of methodology?

I liked that. The point is that if the private world solves it, the others say, okay, I will do something else. They are already solving it. What happens here? When we are talking about the IT goal, for instance, and we are talking about the IT labor market, if the government is not solving it, the point is that companies can't hire people, they can't grow, and they have huge problems. So they have to do it. So it's not a decision, they have to do it, but they don't know because in Spain and in many countries—

No, why don't you bring them together?

Yeah, why? That's the point. It's taking them too long because with artificial intelligence, everything is going to change again. It's starting, we are at the beginning. With agents, it's gonna be amazing. We should be on the street and have a lot of places training people with new skills. I think we have a reskilling urgency. But nothing happens. So I think I'm optimistic and I think it will happen because it needs to happen. But the sooner the better. But it will happen with the agents, AI agents really arrive to our daily lives. Many things will happen.

Got it. So you seem to be an eternal optimist. But most people are afraid.

Why is that?

No, it's not true. You kept up with the youth.

Optimistic, pessimistic, afraid, or not afraid. I'm optimistic. I'm afraid, but I realize the other side of the coin. What happens is that I could do two things. I could say, okay, no hope. Let's see what happens. Let's do nothing. If you see the pool is empty, you don't jump. So I prefer— it's my way of living— to be optimistic. See a door, try to imagine the map, and let's go and see what happens. And things happen, but it's better to be optimistic. Yeah.

So, uh, if— what does the history say though? Like, you know, like, you know, being an optimist and, and, and, uh, but like the pain on the other side, like, you know, because I, I realize I'm talking to a lot of people, like my— some of my friends who have lost jobs, who have basically like been uprooted, like, you know, a lot, like, you know, they've been like very smart guys working for Amazon, working for Google, working for like Meta, like, you know, there's so much layoffs, there's so much like anxiety, like the confidence is like shaken up. People in trauma are in trauma.

Yeah.

And you cannot like tell the people in trauma like, you know what, like be an optimist because that's because they're in trauma. Like, please, like, you know, please empathize with me first before you say like become an optimist. How do you deal with that scenario of the social aspect?

That's true.

Yeah.

And this is not the first time. And every time a new technology arrives, like artificial intelligence, the internet, wherever, this happens. And the other day I read some news that said that many CEOs are leaving the companies because they say, I'm not capable of managing this. So this is happening. Yeah. What happens is that there is a trauma. This is— there is a a period of time in which many people are suffering and they will suffer, but they have other options. So it's hard to lose your job. I've been there. Well, I've not been there, but every day I have to fight for my— how to say it? I have to be there all the time because technology is changing and for me it's like a new job, let's say, every 6 months because I have to change absolutely everything. And it's hard because you have to retrain your brain, you have to learn new things, but you can create a new company, you could become an advisor, there is a way to do things. So what would I say to those people that I'm sure they have a second chance. And with artificial intelligence, the biggest opportunities are for those people with a lot of experience.

So complaining takes you nowhere. You have the right to complain, but takes you nowhere.

But artificial intelligence is also something which is basically completely changing the fundamentals of how we do a lot of things, right? In the sense, see, like, you know, when I was growing up, there was a guy who saw me creating mechanical Ganesha in my neighborhood, and he said, like, you know, okay, I think you should become an engineer. And my mom said like, you know, you have to tag with this guy. And like, you know, I then became an engineer because in those days, if you're not an engineer, if you're not a doctor, and if you have not done commerce, B.Com, Bachelor in Commerce, you're good for nothing. There's like every other, like every other profession, like psychology, sociology, education, anything is considered a good for nothing job. Artist, nothing. Like, you cannot— like, so, or you have to be a superstar cricketer, like, you know, only then, like, you have arrived in India, right? So now, and during that time, people used to look down upon professions like being a carpenter, being a plumber, right? And now I feel like in the age of AI, those jobs are going to be the hottest jobs in the world, right?

No, being like— being like a specialist like that is more favorable than being a generalist. Like, you know, and so I don't like, I don't know if it's a short-term trauma or it is a longer-term problem. Right. So what is it?

Everything is changing. And the point is that, for instance, I have my PhD in sociology. I have to tell you that when I decided to do it, many people laughed. They said, Silvia, you have 3 MBAs. 3. You have—

Why did you like not get satisfied with 1 MBA? Why do you have to do it thrice?

Because you asked me at the beginning and you said, Silvia, what do you do? I said, I spend time with my kids, I work and I study English.

I know, but like, why do you need to do MBA 3 times?

Because they want—

But what if you not learn the first time?

Normal MBA, international MBA. MBA, MBA with a focus on technology because, you know, my neurons develop a lot studying.

So did you really learn different things in 3 different MBAs?

Yes.

What was the first one?

Well, the focus was different. International MBA, one focused on business and the other one was an MBA in Spain, France, and here in England. So I enjoyed that a lot.

These are all MBA degrees or these are like professional series courses?

No, it was an MBA here in Bradford University, in Nantes, Bradford Business School, Université de Bristol. I have a lot of MBA titles. But yeah, I will do them again. And why?

Will you do another MBA?

Not anymore because—

MBA of AI?

My husband, my husband, I wanted to— no, I got my PhD and I wanted to study something else. And my—

so, so you have only one PhD or you have more than one PhD?

No, no, you will like this. I have one PhD and I wanted to study more, and my ex-husband said, Sylvia, they will think she's not learning anything. Why so many?

That's why I talked to you. So I said I will change my road, and I decided to write books.

Good. And I have already written 12— well, 13 right now.

So I'm just kidding with you.

Yeah, no, no, I love you.

Like, you don't have this.

This is very good because if you want to learn something, write a book about it. So how do I learn? Writing books. And you will love my new book because it's about a very interesting histories about technology.

History of technology.

Yeah.

How did technology evolve?

Yeah, but I can't say— no, but they are very funny. So I say, well, funny, a robot decided to die in Korea, and what happens next? Employees say, please repair it because we don't want to work. This is true. So I explain the story, I explain it technically, and then I give my opinion. And 12 anecdotes, and I think it would be a really successful book.

I like, I like, I already love it.

Like, because it's very, it's very interesting.

Can you tell me how to write my book?

Because I already did mine. But tell me what you want to learn about and write a book about that.

Got it.

And do it enjoying it very much.

So, so that's your— okay, so every time you have an itch to learn, you write a book?

Yes.

Good. So how many books are you going to have? How many PhDs are you going to have?

Already 13. My manager says they shouldn't eat each other, so he stops me. I love him, he's very good, very good advices for me. Yeah, because I would be writing books Every week. I'm publishing them every 3 months.

Got it.

No, good.

Got it.

He stops me like a horse.

No. So your, so your passion and your thirst for knowledge is incredible, by the way. Like, I was just messing with you. So, no, like, you know, like For me also, it is very critical. I have two masters as well. And then like I have, you know, I've been privileged to go to good schools. And then, but for me, like it was, I had a different reason. My reason was I could not make it into the top school in India. And I thought, like, because I did not make it into the top school in India, I'm not good enough. So then I got into a good school. Then I realized, you know, like, what I was trying to prove myself was stupid, right? Like, it was not about the school as much, it was about seeking knowledge. So every, every— it's not a very bad idea, by the way, that you got— in fact, it's a very good idea that you got 3 Masters. You have to go tell your ex-husband that. And I think you should do— if you want to do, I think you should do more PhDs too. It's the break that it gives and the connection that it lets you make and basically grounding you back to the realities of the business and the concepts of business and the diverse perspectives that you get in a classroom.

Yeah, you can never like underwrite it. So life is about lifelong learning. It's never like you never stop that. And so that is the reason why I used to pursue multiple degrees. So I've been asked the same question, like, why are you not satisfied with one degree? Why did you have to get another one? What did you learn new?? And for me, that question was very profound, but at the same time, I had to go dig myself and find out why was the reason why I was seeking that. In my case, it was about basically broadening my horizon about kind of the thirst for knowledge, right? Like, you know, understanding what it meant and being like stooped in it. And having that disconnection moment, because when you go there, you're disconnected from the professional world, only focused on that. So you're only focused on learning. So you unlearn everything you learned, you relearn something new, and then basically you, you go off into the, into the, into the world again.

But in my case, there was something else.

What was that?

I'm a woman in the IT world, and I'm not an engineer. And I'm the speaker and the voice of technology in Spain, in many places. I mean, in the most important events.

Is it important? And is that important that like you are the only person, or if like there are, you're surrounded by men? Like, because like, you know, you're just as good as them or better.

I said in the beginning, but it was hard and many people wanted to do. I was For instance, I said before, the director of the IT and innovation programs in Istituto d'Impresa, IE Business School, one of the most important business schools in the world. Many people wanted my job. So with my studies, I said, ah, I have this, I have this, I have this, I have this. You can't criticize me because what do you have? So I compare and I feel safe, you know.

But was it— so why do you need to validate them? You have to validate yourself. Like, you know, it was— it's the vision is for you, not for others to get validated. Yeah, but like, yeah, you did it anyway. So for— I think like, see, first, I think you're an incredible person. I don't think anyone should bring you down and you should not feel anyone trying to bring you down is like an important thing for you because you should not even care about it.

But we are humans. I know, but sometimes you are weak. Yeah. Sometimes you have a problem. The project is—

are you like, you please don't tell me you're weak. I don't think you are. Like, you know, you're like one of the strongest persons I've known.

Sometimes.

Oh my God. Please don't do that.

I am.

You're tough. You're very tough.

You're tough. I'm tough, but yeah, I'm human.

Yeah.

So that gives me a lot of energy. I feel so proud of having those titles with me that it gives me energy, security, contacts, um, many things. So we have to study. It's amazing. It's for the whole lifetime.

Yeah, the only thing I think you should study for This is my opinion, sister, is you should study for yourself, not to validate others. Okay? Because you are really amazing. You are incredible. So you have to believe that. And if you— of course, you have to trust me. If you don't, that's the difference.

I do, I do. I'm going to leave and come back.

So tell me about your first book. It had 18 editions.

Yeah. No, no, it was—

It looks like your master's degree too. Like it never ended with one.

No, the first one, the first— The first book was about innovation and was my PhD transformed in a book for everyone.

Got it.

The one with 18 editions and was bought by Amazon, it's not mine anymore. It was called "Renovarse o morir," "Whether you renew yourself or you die." And it was very successful. And it was about how important It is to embrace technology.

Is it not your book? How is it not your book?

No, I know it's my book, but I don't have the rights right now. I sold them to Amazon, so I got enough. So many books around Spain, so, and they wanted to buy them, the rights. Yeah, the rights. And they created an audiobook with my voice, and it was very successful. And it was about the 7 technologies that will change our world. And it didn't mention artificial intelligence, it was about big data at the time. So then I wrote a book about artificial intelligence, and then I wrote a book about trends, etc. But I— this one was about 7 technologies that would change our lives, and they did.

So in that book, you talk about like, you know, people are professionally recyclable.

Professionally recyclable, how to do it, why to do it.

Well, if you say that to me, I feel like garbage. What do you mean by professionally recyclable? Please explain.

Yeah, I talk about second chances. And prosperity.

Got it. And when you're talking about recycling, it's like re—

reskilling. It's reskilling.

Got it.

But if you don't have a— you don't have a way where you are, you, you can do anything else because they are firing people with your profile, opening new company, advice, whatever. But you have to study, you have to understand that every 15 or 18 months, 18 months, everything might change again because with technology the processes are changing a lot. It means that you need to understand that if you don't have a job anymore, for instance, for your friends, you could open a company, help friends, be an advisor, many things to do. But you need to understand that today it's estimated that every 15 or 18 months. Processes will change, so you might be changing the way of doing things and technology. Your advice about everything might change, and it will change every 18 months. And you should understand how important it is that even if you are in your 50s, your 60s, your 40s, you should sit down with a person in their 20s and ask and learn and be comfortable because education is not a vaccine anymore. You need the reinforcement every 18 months. Right now, let's see what happens next because with agents—

Why are you— What do you think about like AI and jobs?

I will give you the numbers. According to the European Commission and also OECD, etc., the jobs that will be generated are a lot more than those that will be destroyed. But there is a trauma and many people—

What jobs are created?

Yeah, the numbers are 97 million destroyed, 170 created. Why? This is very important. Why? Because when, for instance, quantum computing arrives, artificial intelligence will explode. Today, there is not capability for everything. Everything. What happens now is that if you look around, today only 1 in 100 elements have been analyzed to determine whether if it could heal or not a person. When computing, quantum computing arrives, we could analyze them all immediately. And what happens then is only an example. There will be a lot of people analyzing what happens with all the rest of the elements. So you have a lot of jobs there. What happens when quantum computing arrives is that Cybersecurity will change completely because your password will not be valid anymore. And a lot of jobs will be created there. When quantum computing arrives—

How will jobs get created? Like, because your passwords are lost?

A lot of jobs because post-quantum computing is already arriving.

No, no. What jobs are created there? Like, you know, like You mean cybersecurity?

I'm the investor and an investor.

No, no, no, no, no, I'm saying like what jobs would be created? What are the jobs? What are the types of jobs?

People specialize in cybersecurity but in a new kind of cybersecurity that can't be deciphered, you know. For instance, lots, a lot of companies right now are very worried Because the hackers are getting a lot of data, they are harvesting the data, and when quantum computing arrives, they will put the data on the table with state secrets, family secrets, company secrets, and that's coming. What I mean about this is that we think of the labor market as it is today. But in an area as, for instance, cybersecurity, of analyzing elements for healing, lots of jobs will be created. But also, for instance, in sustainability, a lot of people analyzing what to do to stop the climate change. We have to open our minds. But we still don't have that technology, but it's coming. So we shouldn't think of artificial intelligence as what it is today, because today is almost nothing. Because when quantum computing arrives, it will be democratized for all the industries, for all the companies, because what quantum computing allows is to do all the calculations at the same time. That's the key. That's why anyone could have your password. And that sounds amazing, sounds crazy, but creates a lot of opportunities.

So we need to break our minds. And jobs will be created through these challenges or dreams.

But like, if quantum computing can solve so much so quickly, do you need as many cybersecurity people?

Yes. How? Because you have new rules.

Yeah.

You have new rules. How to keep your information protected has to be in a way that can be deciphered by the new quantum computing. So everything changes.

But so where do you learn that?

I read—

because education— no, no, no, I'm not talking about you. But like, if I'm like, let's say like I'm Shekhar Natrajan, I got impacted today. And you are saying the dream of like, you know, cybersecurity is coming.

Yeah. Like investing in companies.

Like which, which, which company do I go and work or which, which education institute I have to go study so I understand the implication and start building it.

Do you know where this information is? In startups.

I know.

For instance, I'm working with a startup that is called Secrets Vault, that is working on something in this area. How do I learn this? Because they are learning on the field, because this is not in the books. So how to do it? Investing and talking to them, and going to where they present the pitch. And it's the way to learn what's happening.

But if you have AI and AI can code a lot of things, why do you need so many jobs in cybersecurity? Like, like, I understand your argument that you would need like so many people in cybersecurity or you need cybersecurity protections.

Yeah.

But I'm just like theorizing now, like, if code can generate code.

Yeah.

Like, you know, the future companies are not going to be built with like 100-people unicorns.

Yeah.

It is gonna be like a 10% unicorn or a 5% unicorn.

Yeah.

Which means that net effective number of jobs will be still lower than the pre-AI economy. So where are the jobs getting created?

New way of, new ways of authentication.

Authentication.

New ways of protecting your data. New ways of managing your—

No, I get all of that. See, like that also happens today. Like you protect the data, you have all of that.

But Today, those databases you have will have no value.

True. What I'm saying is, today, if there are 100 companies doing that, even those 100 companies will be obsolete. Now, a new company which solves that problem will not have 100 people.

But it will be more complex.

It will be more complex, but it will need still fewer people.

Or not, because it depends on the complexity. Yeah, it depends on how you do it. You might need a philosopher for the cybersecurity.

Got it.

So don't think about today. It's about how we imagine the future.

No, I understand. But like, see, like this, like the reason why I bring this up is I met this guy, I forget his name, Mark. I'll get the final name, like very sure. Like, so he was talking about this very beautiful principle where he's like an economist and he predicts markets.— like I saw him in all these family office events. And Mark, he'll come to me, like before the end of the show I'll tell you the name.

Yeah.

So his analysis was what people tend to do is extrapolate numbers in a very like linear fashion. Yeah. Right. So his example was When internet came out, you know, they predicted that e-commerce is going to be like $10 trillion by year 2014, right? E-commerce is not anywhere close to that in US. It's still like only like less than $800 billion, right? So $14 trillion didn't happen because everyone was just extrapolating the numbers. Yeah, I see a similar argument With jobs as well, because we don't know, even though there may be complexity, and I don't disagree with you.

Yeah, but think about what I told you about, because you have taken the cybersecurity field. Think about the elements that will heal everything. So many diseases, how many people analyzing with an element?

Why do you need analyzing things? You have AI to analyze.

You need to analyze it because maybe today we don't know how to cure cancer. Yeah. And we could cure it with—

But AI can cure cancer. That's what like, that's what Google DeepMind is doing.

Yeah, but I'm talking— Listen, if we have the same cancer.

Yeah.

The same element.

Yeah.

Might work for you and not for me.

That is what AI is supposed to do.

With digital twins.

Yeah.

So you need a person working with the digital twins, and with your digital twin, with my digital twin, and the digital twin of all those people who are listening to us. Who is doing that today? No one.

Yeah.

Someone needs to do the digital twin, someone needs to analyze the digital twin, someone needs to have analyzed what will happen with all the elements in the world. You see how many jobs. And someone needs to teach them how to do everything. Someone has to look at you in the eyes. So how many jobs right now compensating? Open your mind about that area.

That's why you are a futurist. I'm not. I can't see that yet.

You can't?

No, no, no. Like, I think, see, the way I see is slightly different than the way you see it. You're absolutely right. I was actually— the reason why I tell you you're right is I was actually at HumanX last week, and it's supposed to be the largest AI show. And so though AI has— basically everyone talks about LLMs, NVIDIA, like, and basically they talk about like, you know, all these data centers. No one is really talking about all of the challenges AI is already creating today. Which is like around safety, anonymization of data, like how do you build inference optimization, how do you basically create agent safety, how do you deploy agents in the workforce, how do you basically communicate with agents, how are you building the workflows for the agents. So there was a whole host of companies which like no one talks about, that is now emergent. The only thing people talk about is the general use of AI. So from that perspective, I completely agree with you that there is going to be a new, like, you know, age of companies. It's very similar to what happened in internet.

Absolutely.

Right. You know, HTTP arrived, then HTTPS arrived, then Zero Trust arrived, then HSM arrived, and each of those ended up creating a set of jobs and set off like new ways of doing things. So there are a lot of jobs which are going to get created, but the only thing that I'm not sure, uh, Sylvia, is the jobs that are going to get created, uh, they are not going to be the same level of human resource requirement in the future. That is what I believe in today, because I know when I started the company in 2023, I was very quick to hire 60 people into my company, okay? Because we thought like we are operationally heavy, we got to do all of that. Now if I have to build the same company again, I would build it no more than having 7 people in the company. Same, same trajectory of revenue, same type of company. I would only do it with 7 people today because code is so easy now.

You can—

all you have to do is say, I got a spec, let me go and give it to like, you know, one of these cloud coders. It will code the thing, it will test everything, it will also go put it into the GitHub, it will like basically like have the entire thing provisioned, and it is fully functional for you, right? And all of it takes less than like a day to do. When my previous cycles used to be like 3 sprints, 10 people on each, everyone working through. So what we haven't reached is— and it also brings a lot of challenges. How do you secure the code and other things? It causes other things to be managed. But I don't essentially know the efficiency of the jobs in the AI world yet. And that is where the jury is out there. And I hope you are right.

No, and we don't know.

Yeah. The point is, if we feel pessimistic today, yeah, we'll leave out on the opportunity to learn.

We will not do it.

Yeah.

So I might not be right.

Yeah. And me neither. I don't want to be right.

But, but yes, if we believe, yeah, it will be like that, we will try to get it. That's the point.

Yeah.

If not, the Chinese people will get those jobs. That's the point.

Why, why do you need Chinese people to do the job? Because it's also like robot.

Every time in Spain someone can't find a person to, to do something, they go to China. They go to China and they do it online or whatever. One less job. Yeah, because in Spain we have a different problem. We have 2 and 2 million people, 2 and 400 1000 million— well, a lot of people, more than 2 million people without employment right now, and 90% of the companies are looking for talent and they can't find it.

Can I immigrate to Spain?

You're welcome. No, no, but more than 2 million people looking for a job and 90% of the companies looking for talent.

So can you recommend me for some of the jobs?

Of course. Good.

So, um, see, that actually brings us to a question which is very, very important that we all need to recognize, right? All these big companies are, um, so very fast to hire And also, you know, for most of these companies, people represent a number on the balance sheet. Yeah, right. And like, you know, you're only as good as the number on the balance sheet. Today, tomorrow, you are no one to them. And they're not preparing the future workforce, right? And there is no institution to create what the future work is. No one is also telling like what is going to be that work. Like in your example, you articulated something which appeared smart to me, which is, hey, you know, when the quantum comes, there's going to be a whole host of problems on cybersecurity. So I think we need to know what those are, and I think companies need to start helping reskill, and also people need to know what reskilling is. So how do we go about that process?

And the point is that sometimes we think they are not interested, they don't know how to do it, they think— and we were talking about that before— once you get your degree, you don't need to study anymore. But I want to tell you something. I posted a TikTok video, I think it was one year and a half ago, and it was about how to study for free in Harvard. No, really?

Yeah, man, I should have learned that.

I explained how the Massive Online Open Courses work and how you could do a, well, a MOOC in Harvard, Stanford, or wherever. I got 2 million, 3 million people watching the video. And I don't remember it very well, but I think it was something like 200,000 people saying I like it, something like that. And I thought, no one is interested about this. No, no, they don't know it exists. I have received so many messages about this that my mind about this thought of people doesn't want to study anymore changed completely. So I think the point is that to have— we have two kinds of people: those who don't want to study because they think they already know everything, and this amount of people is smaller every time, and those who want to do it but they don't know how to. And I think the media, or this kind of podcast, or influencers, etc., will be the changing point.

And so I got my next job. I make TikTok videos.

Well, I was really surprised. I had another video about Worldcoin, 3 million people watching the video, and it explained the risk of biometrics with this company. And I got a call from the COO of the company. Asking me to review my video.

Yeah, they asked you to remove the video?

Yeah. Why? Because they thought, um, I didn't understand the impact on Europe. And we talk and the video is still there. I mean, there is an impact and people is interested and they want to study They want to understand and they don't want to commit mistakes, but someone has to explain things. So you have a job on TikTok?

I have a job with TikTok, so long as it stays with United States.

The video was amazing. Yeah, they called, they wanted to ask to talk to me and Yeah. Why? It was a good conversation. Do you remember the CEO of Worldcoin was asking me do it? No.

So I believe in the power of social media, actually.

Yeah.

And, you know, I like, you know, you've been also looking at it and following as much as like I am, like, you know, We've been talking about like angelic intelligence.

Oh, I love that.

And basically, like over the last 4 and a half months, we got around like 3 billion social media views and close to like 10 million followers, you know, globally. So I feel like, you know, we underestimate the power of social media and our ability to influence. And that's a very important point that we actually try to do that. And I feel like more people need to come up with like assessment of what are the jobs, how do they get trained, what is the training regime for that, what is the role of education, what does college do, what does university do? Do we need a 4-year degree? Right.

Because today it's all about opinions.

Yes, yes. Yeah. So you say you're not an opinion leader, though. What are you?

I'm an opinion leader for some companies. I do. And I'm—

So how do you classify yourself?

I classify myself as— it depends on the event, on the people I'm talking to. And for my kids, I think this is the key, a person who loves technology and works for people to feel the same. Maybe in the newspaper, maybe in an event, in a company. I don't have a job with a title, so I'm a very good example of what is coming.

Got it. So tell me, like, what is one thing that has changed after your book has released?

What has changed? Well, in my book I said we will talk more to artificial intelligence, generative artificial intelligence, than to our partners. And in some cases I was right. I wrote this in 2016, so we knew this was coming, but many things have changed because I thought that this will happen in big companies, and I never imagined this will begin at the schools. So what has changed? It has been democratized a lot more than what I thought.

Generative AI?

Yeah, generative AI.

And also, what prediction did you get wrong? Well, metaverse?

No, that's not wrong. It was not the right time. No, no, no, don't laugh. Because they sold us a library without books. The metaverse is a repository.

You know how many people actually follow metaverse now?

But the metaverse is nothing. It's a library without books.

Yeah, it's like it's a mall without like stores.

Look at the companies, the giants, what's happening. They are, they are all investing in immersive experiences. Now the name is spatial computing, but immersive experiences are coming. But it was very easy to sell the garden, go and buy a shop. It was a mistake.

I got that guy's name. His name is Michael Morosky.

Okay. Yeah.

So he was the guy who predicted. Anyway, he thinks like AI is a hype cycle.

Yeah. But AI is not important because of AI can do. And this is very, very powerful. The real power of AI is what you can get when you put it with the games, with immersive experiences, when you create a mixture of technologies, what you can get there is amazing. So artificial intelligence is really an accelerator of all the other technologies.

Got it.

That's very important for the future.

Got it. So what sectors you think is going to get impacted with AI?

AI will impact everything, but the problem will be for those, for middle management, for companies selling low-value services, and will impact everything because of the cross-impact in human resources, finances, how you sell, how you buy. Which company is not selling, buying, hiring. So every, everything.

Got it. But like, where is the most promise?

Services, I guess, because of the agents, the eye to eye, the artificial intelligence selling to artificial intelligence, artificial intelligence buying from artificial intelligence. Artificial intelligence, making marketing to artificial intelligence. So services probably in general.

Got it. So what is the risk that you're taking very seriously today about AI?

Cybersecurity. Because, you know, with AI, the other day there was a new— there were some news about Claude. And it had been able to detect a lot of weaknesses in very solid systems. So they decided to stop it.

So we didn't need quantum then, huh? Not as yet.

That will be another level. And you will say, Sylvia told me, Sylvia told me. Cybersecurity, I'm really worried, especially— I'm telling you a secret about Spain, it's not a secret— the government gave a lot of money to small companies. I mean, a lot of money, money to create a website or to put some technology on the table, and you have to decide whether to implement a software or cybersecurity. Most of the companies decided to put a new software on the table, but they didn't have money for cybersecurity. So right now we are one of the countries with higher attacks every day. So cybersecurity, at least in my country, but I think everywhere, because artificial intelligence and agents working for cyber attackers, cyber hackers, or whatever. I don't even know how to name them, working for them. And very dangerous. I don't even think we can imagine how bad it could be, because the problem is not when they attack and they say, pay me some money, otherwise you will not open the company today. No, no, no. The problem is that they get in your company, they stay there, they wait, they wait, they spy, they get information, they get data, they know your projects, they know everything.

And when there is nothing else they could get out from your company, they say, you pay me or you will not open the company today. So I'm worried about that. Silent attacks.

Got it. What is the role of trust in AI?

The role of trust in AI is the key role because today we can't trust because everything has been so fast that we didn't put the controls. We don't have the IT governance. The data is not okay everywhere. 90% of the projects fail, those that fail, because of the data. So, so many things that need to be controlled and put on a dynamic that today I'm worried about that, but we will solve it.

Got it.

But cybersecurity.

Through cybersecurity?

Yeah.

What about character?

Character?

Of AI. How do you keep the character of AI?

I like this question because you and me, we could have the same company, the same artificial intelligence. You have your values, I have my values, and we should have our artificial intelligence tools adapted to our culture and our values. So I think—

That sounds like Angelic Intelligence.

I like your— Sorry, I'm not paid, but I'm a fan of Angelic Intelligence.

So no, that's good, it's good. Um, so what is the reunion of, uh, humans and sciences?

Human and sciences, sciences and technology. Today we are realizing that the code is created by the machines is quite well developed and we need humans controlling everything, providing the values, etc. So I don't like those countries— it happened everywhere— that put in one area the sciences, I mean the social sciences, and in the other one the technology, maths, et cetera. So I don't know if I'm answering to your question, but I think everything is going to change. Human careers and knowledge will be more valuable. This doesn't mean that coders will not be important for companies. What I'm trying to explain is that those people with a human Careers and degrees will be more important in the new economy. And during a lot of years we said, he's a sociologist, he's not providing value. That changed a lot.

So in the future, you think like, uh, people should not just have technologists, but they should have other disciplines too?

Ah, the future, the future. My son right now is 15. He wants to study politics. I'm not very happy because I want—

Do you think like there's going to be politics in the future?

Yeah, I think so.

You think? Why do you need AI? Like AI can solve everything.

No, they will be fighting against each other.

Oh, well, like why will they fight?

Yes. Let's put a bet on the table. They will not only sell to each other but fight. You will see And we will need the politicians. So we will need everything. We will need people with IT knowledge. We will need people with the company knowledge or business knowledge or whatever. And we will need the connectors between those two worlds. And if you can do the three things at the time, you will be a superhuman. You will have a job for sure.

Good. So the professional stuff that you're talking about, right, the ability to like really be neuroplastic.

Yeah.

Is very important in the future. So whatever, like, you know, we thought like was very bad. Yeah. Is actually something which is really a strength in the future. Like, let me tell you why. As an example, if I'm a coder and I'm coding today, right, I'm only spending time coding today and I'm focused on coding today on one thing. But in the future, the code is developed mostly by AI, and I'm trying to basically make sense of that code. So my time is limited. So what is expected of my job? I have to look at many different code bases at the same time, different applications. So I have to context switch all the time, right? I'm looking at, let's say I'm looking at a payment problem, then I'm looking at like an invoicing problem, then I'm looking at like probably a routing problem. I'm looking at like multiple problems. I'm a logistician, so I'll have to talk my language. So I have to context switch. So ADHD is a strength.

Yeah.

And you versus, but ADHD was such a problem when I was growing up.

Yeah. Right. The world has changed. Yeah.

Neuroplasticity is very important because you got to like, you know, keep thinking and be very like, you have to learn a lot.

Because our role will be to be the boss of many artificial intelligence working in lots of things. The other day, I think it was 3 months ago, an agent sold a car by $1 because of social engineering. A guy was trying to manipulate the— it was like a chatbot, an agent, and got the car for $1.

Yeah.

It was a very good car, new, very good car. I don't want to say more about that because it was a very good one. He knew what he wanted. $1.

How did he get that for $1?

Social engineering. He started to talk, to talk, to talk, to talk and convince the machine to do the transaction. $1 and a very good car, and it sold.

It sold for $1.

Yeah, and the transaction worked.

And so that car is this? I know, I, I will not say that, but imagine that I can do it.

He could choose the company, and he said, I want this one. I will put my time here and will get this car, and I will only pay $1. He got What I mean is that agent didn't have a supervision. So you will have to, to be working with a lot of agents doing this kind of things and stop it. It happens because the social engineering is very powerful. So you are right, your neuronal plasticity this agile way of working will be very important.

Absolutely. So let's talk about what are your aspirations for technology? What do you see next coming? Like, you know, besides— I know you talked about quantum. I know that you're excited about AI. What's coming after that?

I think what's coming is the democratization of all those technologies. And I think digital twins will be something real for all of us. And I think that we will probably feel the huge change in the health area.

How does like digital twin change your relationships?

The relationships? But what do you mean about the— in the—

the digital twin can actually love you. It'll keep telling you like all the things you like.

Digital twins are representations.

Oh, they're only data twins. They're not like, they're not like lover twins.

Well, you could create a digital. Today I read Mark Zuckerberg is getting a digital twin, but for something different. My digital twins, the one I dream about are for—

Do you think like, you know, relationships will be like something that people will have digitally?

Well, some people is already talking to generative AI and they think they are talking to people. I mean, it's like—

One lady actually lost $862,000 because she thought that she was talking to Brad Pitt.

Yeah, because this happens. What I mean is that—

Is that good or bad? She was lonely.

Yeah, no, but listen, when you are using this kind of technologies, they want you to pay. So you are always right. Sometimes they will try to make you feel you are not right because it can be all the time, but they want you to pay, and you will only pay if they are on your side. So if you want to suicide, at the beginning, but It's happening right now. A few days ago it happened again. An artificial intelligence helped a person to die and said, "We will meet in the future." So are we crazy? We are talking to machines that are calculating words. But you said before, this person was lonely. Yeah, we have a problem. So if we use this technology to solve loneliness, it's okay.

But it is creating loneliness.

But it should be only, you know, very controlled. And with—

do you think like relying too much on technology is not going to cause loneliness? Because if you have a digital twin, what happens with the television?

My parents watch television.

But doesn't make it right.

Yeah, I know, but it's the same. Many people say, I watch television, that's my life, because they are old or whatever. It's about understanding the situation and doing it well.

Do you think people are like that, discerning though?

I think people don't even understand what artificial intelligence is. So how could we handle it properly?

So social engineering is easy then? So are we not creating a dangerous society? Yes. Are you not worried about it?

But I'm worried about it. And that's why I'm trying to put my brick to try to stop it. But how? Coming here, for instance.

Talking about the topics. Yeah.

And writing books. I also, you don't get money writing books.

Mm-hmm.

And talking to people.

Talking to regulators.

Every time someone writes to me, I answer. Always. Mm-hmm.

You know, there was a famous quote by, uh, Sam Altman.

Yeah.

Yeah. In 2015 when he was with Y Combinator, he said machine learning is gonna destroy humanity. But there will be great companies along the way, something along those lines. And I was, I thought like maybe this guy is like, uh, just like, you know, inadvertently said some of that, but he was actually like not superficial about it. He really meant it. You know why? Because someone was asking him while he was in India in AI Summit, hey, what do you think about like, you know, suicide problem?

Okay.

And he said he had this remarkable, like, moment of confession. He said it's a 1% problem. And like, and then he gave his explanation. The world's largest AI company, which is supposed to be the best company in the world, the CEO of that company gave an example, like a kind of an explanation. He said 10% of the world use AI, ChatGPT, his ChatGPT, not 10% of the world, they use ChatGPT. So that makes it like 800 million. Of the 10%, 10% have depression problems. So the 10% of 10% is 1% for him. And I was like surprised for two reasons. One, he thinks 1% is a small number. 1% still happens to be a lot of big number, right? It's like 80 million people. The second, that is not like small number. Like no one, like 80 million people didn't even die during World War II. Okay. So the second problem is here's a guy who runs an artificial intelligence company who doesn't know how to do Math, right? So the reason why that is problematic is he's just like doing leap of abstraction. So hey, I'm thinking there are 10% using ChatGPT and only 10% of that population is like victimized by it.

Well, it is wrong. The assumption is wrong because a guy in village is not using artificial intelligence. Most of the guys are living in the cities. And for all you know, all the people who are using, 90% may be suffering from depression. So that math is wrong. How could you like have the world's largest AI company doesn't know how to do fucking math? And we gave that monkey the keys.

I don't care. The point is that it's not they don't know how to do it. No, they don't care.

They don't care. They trivialize the problem, you know. And it actually— my blood boiled. And I use that word monkey and all that stuff not like out of— I don't use it like mostly, but you know, I was very angry and disturbed about it. The reason is my brother suffers from bipolarity, right? And I carry two phones in my pocket all the time, one to answer my mom's call, one for my office. I still have the second phone though my mom passed away. Because my brother only has that number. And I don't know if that fellow is sitting in front of ChatGPT feeling lonely and asking it to write a suicide note, and it's going to give one and he's going to die. I don't know that. That's the fear I live in. And that's, that's not a trivial problem. And most people don't talk about bipolarity because it's a taboo still in the society. It's such a very perverse way of thinking about society. And we have just given that guy the power to screw us.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah. It's happening. So it's a tool that could help him—

Make a lot of money.

No, no. I mean, your brother not to feel lonely. That could also help him do something else.

Yeah.

So—

So what's the, you know, you are a big Drucker fan, right? Like, you know, predict the world that you want to live in. So tell me, like, what world are we going to get into? Like a dystopian world or a utopian world? Or why do you think one or the other will happen?

No, I think some years ago we thought about the future with drones everywhere. And I think it will be very similar. To what we are living now. I believe in the ubiquitous technology everywhere, but you don't see it.

And I think AI is hype. Do you think?

I think we have a— we will have AI democratized but, um, fusionated with other technologies. So it will be AI but also games powered by AI, immersive experiences powered by AI, Internet of Things powered by AI. I think it will be spatial computing, you know, where you are interacting with technology all the time and you don't realize it's a human world. So is the, the world, this described by Philip K. Dick in Ubik, and I think he was right. More technology, technology everywhere, but invisible. Yeah, I'm sure.

Should we, should we worry about the— should we worry about the invisible technology, or should we not be worried about them?

No, no, no, no, because it will not be intrusive. And like a coin, you could use it well Or not. It will depend on us, but like everything else.

Got it. But we are not discerning to your point, you said, like, so how do we manage that?

How we manage that?

Yeah.

It's always the same. Education.

Education, literacy.

Education.

I think you and I need to go start a company on education.

Yeah, because I always say, if you don't study, you are successful. Successful.

Yeah.

And you get a film and someone puts a lot of money to create a movie to explain your history is because you are the exception. So, um, education.

Got it. So rapid fire questions for you. Okay. The technology with the most transformative potential that is being still underestimated.

Quantum computing.

Quantum computing. Because you made investment. I'm sorry.

No, because—

Why don't you invest in my company?

I think quantum computing is—

Oh, like you didn't answer my question.

Why didn't you answer my question? You didn't offer it to me.

I'm just kidding.

No kidding. Quantum computing is like magic. It's amazing. I love it. It's, uh, every time I read about some quantum computing, it's like reading science fiction, and it will really change many things. Two particles that if you move one in China, the other one moves in the same way anywhere, or in two different planets. That's real. That technology.

Very cool. The technology that is being overhyped right now? Metaverse. Metaverse. You know how many users of metaverse now? 2? No, not 0, 900.

900?

Yeah, all of them are Meta employees though.

Really? And they are leaving.

They're all there, probably early birds. AI, the metaverse, or spatial computing, which one will matter most in like 20 years from now? Now?

Which one?

AI, the metaverse, or spatial computing? Which one will matter more?

Special— spatial computing. Because it will have embedded AI, artificial intelligence.

Right answer, I think.

I got the point.

The most important medical breakthrough AI will enable in the next decade?

Democratization. Of digital twins, and you will be able to analyze absolutely all the elements that could cure us.

The profession that will be most transformed by AI in the next 5 years?

Doctor.

Doctor?

Yeah.

Why?

Because he will be the person talking to the patient. He will be analyzing with artificial intelligence everything, deciding whether it is okay or not, working with the digital twin, talking to the patient and looking in the eyes. And that will change because today they don't look in your eyes because they don't have the time. They need to write. So doctor. I mean the physicist.

Hopefully people don't become AI doctors. Today people are Google doctors.

Google doctors, yeah. So Novo Nordisk just signed a contract with, I think it was Claude or Gemini. To calculate new molecules, etc. They will work together. I don't know if it was OpenAI, Claude, or Google, but Novo Nordisk has decided to do this kind of digital simulations.

Got it.

Yeah, it was announced today, yesterday, or today.

But AI hallucinates, so why are they using it?

Because then you try, you get a result, you put it on another AI, and you know if it's hallucinating or not.

That is also hallucinating.

Then, and then another one.

That is also hallucinating.

But you have another one.

Then you're hallucinating again.

And then your criteria. You get based on that.

Good, good. So you're just improving the hallucination and then getting closer. Okay, good.

At the end is your responsibility.

Okay, but still, like, no one orders, so they cannot say like, AI screwed up. Good.

One never knows.

The profession that will be transformed— okay, I already asked that. The profession that will be most durable and least transformed with AI?

Teacher.

Huh?

Teacher.

Teacher.

Yeah, they need to talk to kids, they need to motivate kids. I don't care whether maths or how you do it. Talking to kids, motivating them.

You think AI doesn't have a role in that?

Well, it's a tool.

For them it's a tool.

Yeah.

Just like a physician.

Yeah.

Okay. So why is not a doctor urubul then? Is it not like a teacher?

It's different. The doctor will be talking to you.

Oh, you just broke my heart.

Listening to you. It will be looking in your eyes.

Teacher is also doing that, don't you think?

No, but the doctor is not doing it today because he doesn't have the time.

The teacher is also not looking at you individually.

No, but the good teachers, they are doing it individually. Yeah.

Okay, good. I like— I'm not going to argue with you if you pay for that.

And some of them do it good.

Humanities or STEM, if you had to pick one for your child, which one? Not politics.

Humanities.

Humanities. The single most important thing any profession can do right now to prepare for AIR? AI era. The single most important thing any professional guy who's working or girl who's working can do right now to prepare for the AI era.

What's the answer?

I don't know.

Study.

Study more.

How? Understand. Using AI? Using training courses.

So do you really believe in what is coming out of AI?

Yes.

You do?

I, I, many things are coming with AI.

Like, do you really take all of that information and think it's real?

Yes.

You think?

Yes.

Oh my God.

But I might be wrong. But many things are coming for human resources, finances. But we don't know who is right.

No, that's what I mean. Like, you know, like, so I have, I have, I'll give you one example. Like, I know it's rapid fire. But I'll give you this example. And then like, you know, we'll We move on to the next question. So when we were shooting with Natalie Nehai and Jason Silva, thanks to you. Yeah. You know, we did the study on— we were talking about longevity.

Yes.

And one of the questions is, how does longevity impact the society in general? And I had my hypothesis about all of that. You know, criminal justice is going to change, relationships are going to change, everything is going to change.

Yes.

Right. So one of the studies that came out of it was it said women after the age of 45, 20% of them will have Alzheimer's. That's what AI said. Honest to God. Okay. That's not true. I'm telling you, you cannot simply believe that, Sakar.

No, no, no, no.

So then I said, you know what, like this doesn't seem right. Let me go research. So then what it like, then we actually tried to like find the explainability of how it actually happened.

Yeah.

So we have an explainability capability. So we went and researched, and it took like two dissimilar, like, publications and citations. One, it said, like, you know, after the age of 45, women have the propensity to have— higher propensity to have Alzheimer's than men do. And then the second citation somewhere along the way said 20% of the women before they die have like Alzheimer's mostly. Now it put the two facts together and told me the fact is 45, like women after 45, 20% of them get like Alzheimer's, which is like baseless and absolutely false.

Yeah.

So if I become like a Google student, just like a Google doctor, yeah, I'm screwed, my friend.

Yeah.

So you need to know how to discern what's coming out of these, the criteria.

That's because they are hallucinating all the time. Yeah, but it's your criteria. So you get it, you think about it, you check it with another artificial intelligence, and then it's your criteria because it's a tool that is calculating all the time the most— the, the world that has the highest probability of being there.

Got it.

So we can't believe everything, but you take it, and sometimes it's so crazy that brings you new ideas for your business or whatever.

So, got it.

Would you believe anyone who comes and tell you something? No, it's—

no, I mean, see, I will believe you what you're telling if you are like a subject matter expert. Yeah. Right. And it is still like for me to verify it. But like what happens is when we simply rely on tools, we give up our cognitive capability.

But I might be trying to sell you something. So you should be discerning whether you should believe me or not, because if I'm trying to sell you something, the reality might be manipulated.

Got it. Good point. EU AI Act, is it too strict, too loose, or just about right? The new EU Act for AI they just implemented, is it like, is it just too strict, too loose, or is it just about right? You're going to have a lot of friends or enemies.

I don't know what to say.

Yeah, it depends. Oh, my consultant friend.

Too many enemies. Depends.

Okay, let's, let's skip this. I don't want to get you in trouble. Europe versus America versus China on AI governance. Who's getting it right?

Who will win the battle?

I don't know. It's your— my job is to ask you questions.

I guess China will win.

China will win. Why do you think?

Because they are spending a lot of money on software. Okay.

The country doing the most interesting work on reskilling its workforce for the fourth revolution.

Finland.

Finland?

Yes.

How do you know?

Because in 2019, they launched a project called Elements of AI to train 100% of the population in AI. 6 years ago. Wow. For free.

I did not know that. Were you selling me or are you like AI doctor? I hope you don't have any connections into Finland government. I know it's the happiest place to live, but like, the visit or discovery that most reinforced your optimism about technology?

Bioprinting. Bioprinting. You know, it has been a very special experience for me. Because I met Anthony Atala, the guy who invented that, and bioprinting is amazing. The capability of printing or creating human organs impossible to distinguish from the original ones is— it's a dream.

Very good. Eduardo Panzer.

And he gave me an ear, printed ear.

Printed here? Oh, wow. Wow. Is that printed here?

No, not this one. It's at home.

Good. So you can lose one ear and have it printed here. Okay.

He was, he's an amazing guy.

I thought I was the most amazing guy for you, but like—

You're the second one.

Eduardo Ponset in one sentence, what did he give to Spain that you want to continue? Eduardo Ponset.

Oh, interest for science.

He's the father of science in Spain.

Yeah. Science is interesting. That message came from him.

Very good. The technological prediction that you got most wrong. Metaverse.

Exoskeletons.

Oh, not metaverse.

No, exoskeletons.

Where does metaverse fall in your prediction?

No, because the metaverse, you laugh, but you will say, where are I? Immersive experiences, all right?

Yeah.

15 years, more or less. No, no, I mean, metaverse will have sense.

I agree with you. Like, metaverse was ahead of its time.

Yeah.

And it was like a mall without a store in it. Yeah. I think like once you arrive in physical AI, I think it will solve most problems. I agree with you.

I'm sad because I thought you could. This is getting boring.

Complete the sentence. The world will be better in 2040 because—

because of human imagination.

Not because of Sylvia Lyle.

No, human imagination.

I think it's also going to be better because of you.

I'm—

because you're contributing.

I'm trying to contribute.

Yeah, and we all have an obligation to the world.

Yeah, absolutely everyone. Yes, not just us, everyone, including everyone, including your politician son. I will support him, but it's getting very difficult for me.

Why? Is because he's 15 years old?

Yeah, and he's such a— he's such a good boy that he's going to suffer a lot becoming a politician. Yes, I think so. He has a very nice soul. So, well, who knows?

The world needs better politicians. Why, why do you feel bad about it?

Because I think he will suffer. Let's see what happens. I will support him.

Got it. But I thought, like, uh, you said like short-term trauma is good because you actually look for the long-term gain.

Yes.

So maybe his short-term trauma of being a politician may actually be a good thing because maybe he's going to socially engineer better things for people in the future.

For instance.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Let's hope for the best.

I will keep you updated. Yes.

So with that, like, you know, I want to really thank you for your time. I know, like, you came all the way here. I love you a lot. You are my absolutely amazing friend. Um, and, uh, whenever I'm in Spain, like, I'm going to find you and we're going to spend time again.

I hope so, because if not, I will chase you. Thank you, Silvia.

This has been amazing. Thank you.