Transcript of JRE MMA Show #181 with Justin Gaethje & Trevor Wittman New

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Gentlemen, first of all, thank you for being here. I couldn't wait to talk to you. Congratulations on one of the most epic accomplishments in the history of combat sports, and that's not an understatement. I mean, it might be an understatement. I mean, it's not an overstatement. It's perfect. That was one of the greatest nights I've ever experienced of watching anything in my life. It was amazing. And to have you cap it off and win the title when you're facing a guy that everybody thought was at least number £2 for pound. It was like him and Islam were number 1 and number 2.

Mm-hmm.

And some odds had you at 6 to 1, which I thought was very disrespectful. I thought, like, "Ah, this is crazy." Like, 6 to 1's crazy. Like, Ilia's really good, but so's Justin. This is kind of nuts. Like, to have you win the way you won in front of the fucking White House.

Yeah. How's it feel? Oh, you know, it's really not real yet. I was expecting to have, like, an internal sense of relief that, like, I don't have something to chase, 'cause I was always chasing this belt. And I was expecting to wake up with, like, some kind of natural release of pressure, but I don't know, I don't feel that. As the days go by, every day I feel it a little bit more, a little bit more. Two days ago my dad was like, you know, "What was it like waking up being the champion?" And I was like, "I haven't even thought about that." And then I was, you know, on the shitter like 10 minutes later and I was sitting there thinking about it. I was like, "Wow, I'm the fucking champion. Like, it's fucking crazy." And yeah, it's just, I mean, I've just been on the grind. For so many years now. My dad dropped me off 19 years ago in Colorado. I knew nobody to wrestle. And yeah, to see where I'm at now is just absolutely incredible. I mean, there's really no way to explain how or why, you know, or like why I deserve it or what.

I mean, I worked my ass off. I have made mistakes, you know, I've done things the wrong way, but I've always corrected and got back on the path. And—

Yeah.

You know, I think the coaches, the mentors, but mostly the coaches that I've been, you know, and the team that I have around me is a huge reason why I was able to stay on track and just keep moving forward and keep trusting that, you know, I belong in the top of the league.

Well, you've clearly shown it throughout your career. And having a great coach like Trevor, and one of the reasons why I wanted to bring in Trevor is 'cause you guys have a very unique relationship. First of all, I love the YouTube series, The Art of Violence. Fantastic. And what's great is watching you two guys work together, and Trevor, you being, like, very acutely aware of when to pull him back, when to ramp it up, when to push. Like, you guys— having a relationship like that is so critical because you guys know each other so well. You've seen him perform so many times. You've seen him fight and perform in the gym that you know where he's at all the time. And having that sense of where your fighter is at any given time in camp, 'cause you know him so well, boy, that's a giant advantage.

It is.

Whoa, hold on.

Oh my God. Testes, testes, 1, 2, 3. Yeah, I think that's a huge advantage is knowing your athlete. And, you know, I've been doing this for a long period of time, but there's lots of coaches out there that consider their fighters their friends. I do consider them. One of my best friends, but I put myself more in like a father position of I need to know when to tell him the truth. And I've got myself in trouble with that with fighters where you tell them the truth so hard that you have to let them go like a child. Like, "Hey, if we're not on the same beliefs, go live life and see how it is, and then when you return, I'm still gonna love you." Having that type of thing where I have to be dead honest for your career, not because it helps us now and it feels good right now at the moment. I have to look at that from— Right. From the time that we start and we talk about, you know, what are his goals, He has his goals, and then my job is to be an advisor, be a mentor to get him to that place as best as I can because these are his goals, and I want to support those.

And in the beginning of his career, his goals were to be the most violent guy out there, the most remembered, the guy that every time someone bought a ticket, they remembered Justin Gaethje selling that show. And then it turned into, no, I want to have this belt. And that was hard because we did go and, not get the belt twice. And you know, it's so cool to be in kind of those scenarios where it's like, damn, you had two opportunities, now it's never gonna happen. And that's what life is. Life is one of those things that you keep getting up and chase your goals. You never know how it's gonna happen. And yes, you wanna dream and you wanna have a, you wanna have a plan. But I'll tell you right now, through all the times that I've had championship fighters in business and life, The plans never work. You always have to adjust them. But it's that dream and that vision to get you to the top of the stairs. You have to get up each one of those steps. So, you know, Justin went out there and wrote a story that I don't think will ever be forgotten.

And he did it one round at a time. And that's what impresses me because his mindset— I love the mental game. I love to talk about the mental game. Even like Ilia. Ilia's a special guy with how he uses his mental. The secret, the— If I see it, I believe it, it'll happen. To a point, you know? It's like, I always tell people, like, if you want, if you go down the ice cream aisle and you're like, hey, I don't know what ice cream I want, you're gonna stand there and go, oh, that one looks good, that one looks good, that one looks better. The people that are like, I want mint chocolate chip, you get in there, you get it done, you grab that mint chocolate chip and you walk out. Very similar to Ilia's last 3 fights. He went out there and he demanded what he wanted. His confidence got him through that. But it makes it very hard when you get that stale, nasty, rotten milk fucking mint chocolate chip, then you start to go, oh shit. What is gonna happen now? So I think the relationship that we have is me guiding him, me pulling him back at the Strictly situation.

Hey, let's pull back a little bit. Let's focus on what's going on. I don't want no distractions. And having someone, and he trusts that I care about him. I love him to death. I love his family. Like our relationship is so strong and I need that with my athletes. And I'm just blessed and 100, you know, I say honored, but more importantly humbled. By someone who I've never worked mental with, who shows me different ways to the mental game of fighting, which I feel I'm very high level with, is— it's something that if you put some— put yourself around people that make you better, this guy makes me better daily, and I'm very grateful for that.

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You said something about Ilja, about the fight, about having expectations. And you said you don't have any expectations when you fight.

Yeah.

That way you don't— you don't get thrown off.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's huge. I mean, my expectations come from my hard work. Obviously, I expect my body to perform. I understand that I've trained my mind to, and, you know, maybe the narcissistic tendencies in me love showing off and performing in front of, you know, thousands of people on that stage. That's what I love the most about this, and that's what my personality, like I'm very competitive, I wanna win, but I'm never gonna lie to myself. And that's how I've never had a coach in my entire career since 4 years old of wrestling have to pull me aside and talk about the mental aspect of competition because it's always been so natural to me. I'm not sure if, I'm not sure if it's because they see that I'm doing good and that they agree with my approach mentally, or they don't understand what's going on, or— but I've just always been so comfortable and so content with my situation of, you know, this is a competition, it's a game. You know, I'm very competitive, I'm very petty, I take everything personal. —And yeah, when I go in there with ex— I have gone in with expectations.

And it's— I said it before the fight, you know, Ilia, like, I said so many true things to him, and I think it was such a— it's such an asset to tell someone the brutal truth, especially someone like him, because it pushes them farther away from the truth. You know, he— even if I tell him the exact truth and exactly what's gonna happen and, you know, you're making a mistake by having all these expectations, and when we go to round 2 and when we go to round 3 and it's not going as you predicted, predicted it or wanted it to or expected it to, then where do you go from there? And, you know, I said that exact thing to him, and then that pushed him farther away from it. And, you know, I—

It's almost like he wanted to prove you wrong.

Yeah, he wanted to prove— he wanted to prove himself right.

Yeah.

You know, and he was unwilling to be open to opinions. And because obviously I don't know him, he knows him better than himself. But, you know, I, uh, I got here because I am coachable. I got here because I listen. I use every— like I posted yesterday, every person, place, or thing that has happened to me or for me has ultimately molded my mind and my body to be able to deal with the situation that happened on Sunday night. And, you know, I can pull so much experience from the past. My losses, my wins, setbacks, failures, accomplishments. I mean, there is so much to learn from it. You know, every day is a learning experience. And I constantly try to learn and be better. And I don't know why I'm able to perform like that. I think, I just think it's who I am. You know, when I say I wanted to be the most exciting fighter ever, it's not that I wanted to be the most exciting fighter ever, that the thought of that was fucking cool to me, you know, but I was just being me. And I've been blessed to be able to, you know, through my childhood, through coming from a small town, through having, you know, unwavering support from my family and my friends and my coaches and my teachers and everybody from, you know, it's just crazy to be able to come out on top.

I mean, it's just crazy.

One of the things I think was a giant factor in the fight is that you have been in wars. You've been in a bunch of wars. Yeah. And Ilia really had only had some rough moments against Jai Herbert. You know, Yousef Zalal gave him some problems, but it was nothing serious. The wars that you've been in, these just down-and-dirty brawls that you've been in, you are comfortable with the back and forth. You're comfortable with enduring. You know that you're not gonna break. You know, if your body holds up, you're gonna keep fighting and you can endure. I don't think he'd ever experienced that before. So when you didn't break in the second round, and I think he made a mistake, and I think you're correct about that. You said he made a mistake by going to the ground.

Absolutely.

And he hurt you to the body.

I told Trevor yesterday, I think, you know, him hurting to my body was the reason, one of the main reasons I won. You know, when he hit me, when I dropped, it wasn't the first time he hit me in the body. That was probably like the fourth or fifth one. And he had landed some really clean shots clean shots, and he could probably sense that I was in trouble and hurt. And I think that fact made him dump everything because it was his last chance to take me out, and he almost did take me out. But when I went down, in hindsight— it's always easy to make these decisions in hindsight— but when I went down, you know, he would— he's had way more submissions than he has knockouts. And so for him not to have that belief that he's gonna be able to go down there, especially with the Khabib fight, especially with the Charles Oliveira fight, especially with all the negativity around my grappling there, you know, I think he would have been foolish not to, because I would have stood back up. I would have stood back up and he would have charged forward, tried to finish me.

I would have jumped on his legs. I would have pulled guard. He was going to end up on top of me no matter what. I wasn't going to sit there and trade with him again. Like, I would have, you know, front rolled into grappling situations or whatever. I would have made him cover me. And, but I think me getting hit is what made him completely blows, you know, Shane Carwin-esque, you know, blow his tank.

Yeah.

And, you know, go for the win. And I think that was the choice he had to make because it was gonna continue to get worse. I beat his ass in the first round. Like, it might have been close on the scorecards. I absolutely took the first round, but the amount of damage that I inflicted in the first round set up the rest of the fight.

I do think it was a mistake. And you're saying— what you're saying is so correct. But what I'm saying is from a standpoint of him demanding it, he's going to finish you in the first 2, understanding the damage that he was taking. He took big risks. He got in there. He kept his hands on your collarbones. He was landing really good shots. Yeah, the, the, the 2 body shots before that, that left hook to the liver, that the sound it made was crazy. That last one was clean. It was precise and deep, but you could tell it was already there. But if he didn't put that pressure on hisself, —And this is what I mean by mistake— is like, when you come out, you have to know that you're going 5 rounds. And he knew that he had to unleash everything right there. If he would have been smart in that scenario, saying, "Hey, we got 5 rounds. Let me step back a little bit. Let me do some damage." But also, he's like, "Hey, let me get you out of there quick." Justin, you know, can't grapple, can't do all these things what a lot of people think, which Justin's a great grappler.

And what was so smart about you is when you get tired, That's where the worst decisions happen. That's one of my big things as coaching, is we get someone tired and then we make them make bad decisions, and then we capitalize on those mistakes. Justin was able to stay so composed here with being speared to the body. And when you take a liver shot, it is way different than the headshot. A headshot's like taking a shot with your buddies at the bar. It's like, hey, let's go, you know? But you take a body shot, you're dying. Like, you're liver shot, you feel like you're dying. And Justin, all the decisions he made on the ground, from the triangle, from the armbar, from not being flat. So many good decisions were made in that scenario, and I do think it was a mistake. Obviously, there's so many different ways it could go, but those, those type of moments in fights are what make fights great, is overcoming obstacles. And he had set that up. He had said it. He's like, hey, I'm gonna overcome anything. I'm going out there, put the worst thing out there. Like, what are you gonna do to me?

I've already been knocked out the last second of a freaking huge fight by Max. Like, you can't do nothing. Mm-hmm. Worse to me. And that mindset I think is, you know, something to take away for all the fighters out there that always, I love how you say it, expect a war, always. Some of the biggest mistakes that I've made with fighters that I had is allowing them to think that they're gonna go through this fight easy and then that fight becomes super hard. You think it's gonna be a war, then you're like, hey, it wasn't as bad as I was expecting. Even if it was a little bit of a war.

They're not gonna help them in that moment.

Yeah.

There's no pulling them out.

That's fighting. Fighting, like fighting is mentality. I look at this like there's techniques out there and there's things like that. What makes this sport inspirational and makes someone that want to go out there and beat cancer because they were inspired by a fighter, it's not the technical piece. It's getting back up and it's okay to get knocked down. I love, I love watching people get knocked down because my favorite part is seeing how they get up. And that to me is why I love fighting, is how people get up.

Yeah, how they endure. And that was the big story of that second round that you figured out a way to get through it and the that change in tempo in the third round was very obvious because the sprint that you have to make, like what Ilia did when he was trying to finish you, that— he used so much fucking energy. And the great Chael Sonnen once said that if you try to win by knockout and fail, you won't win by submission.

Yeah.

And a lot of times that's the case because you know as good as anybody, if you fucking sprint it hard, you wail on the bag with fucking everything you got for 2 minutes, and then they go, "Time," 1 minute's not enough. It's not enough.

Even in preparation.

Even 2 minutes. They even feel tired after 2 minutes. That was crazy too.

Even in preparation.

That was crazy too. We'll talk about that.

Preparation for these fights, like, I'm doing 20, 30, 40-second sprints at most. I mean, that was a 2-minute sprint for him.

Yes. Full out. Full out.

Full power.

Everything full power. Every punch full power.

You can't even train for that.

You gotta have spots.

Right. And he didn't. He was just unloading. I mean, that's a young man with a tremendous amount of confidence because he's a two-division world champion and he thinks he's gonna go down as the greatest of all time. And hey, he might still.

He still could.

He might still. What was he, 28?

The odds are fucking great against that right now.

Because of that loss?

I hope he does.

I hope he does too. I hope he does and I know that he has the skill. I know that he has the skill to be a champion again. However, I— same thing with Tony Ferguson. I didn't break Tony Ferguson's confidence. I changed the perception of his opponents of him. And that is a huge factor when you go in there. Like, who are you fighting? What do you figure out? You know, before this, he was a guy that would— that you couldn't get through, that you couldn't push through, you couldn't survive with. And once I showed people that all you gotta do is get through that, then nobody's ever gonna go in there with thinking that he's unbeatable now, you know. And that, that was his— that was his identity. And, you know, that's gonna be such a tough task for him to fight people that aren't scared of him.

That's interesting. That's Mike Tyson in his prime. That's Anderson Silva in his prime, where the fight was lost.

Ronda Rousey.

Yeah, the fight was lost before he got— even got in there. Physically, now I don't know what the truth is, but all these reports are that he has two fractured orbitals and a broken nose. Just that alone, just the orbitals alone, like anytime you've got eye injuries, like anything severe with your eyes, long-term consequences vary. Psychological.

Absolutely. And physical.

Your body heals.

And physical.

The body is resilient.

Yeah, I'm telling you, I had a break—

Broken bones make stronger bones. That is his orbital bones will be stronger.

It depends on where though, Justin. The orbital bone, I had my orbital broken and for 6 months I would do this and my tooth would move and it's right where my sinus cavity is. You remember when you hit me with the spinning elbow?

Your tooth would move?

Dude, right here. When you push on your cheek? And my tooth would move.

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I still feel the soft spot, but this is a very weak area where your sinus cavity is. That's a— and you, you broke both orbitals and the nose. Like, I do believe the body is resilient.

You ever seen Merab's nose?

Yeah.

You ever seen the x-ray of Merab's nose?

No.

Did I send it to you?

It looks like a spine.

Oh, dude.

He's got 33 vertebrae. No, actually, I mean, I've had—

That's fucking crazy.

I've had 3 broken noses. I've had it fixed twice.

Yeah, I know you had it fixed. You know, this is one— There it is. That's Murab's nose.

Oh my God.

Oh my God. I mean, that's—

That looks like a long cocaine binge right there. Took out the whole fucking left side of his nose.

That looks like you got hit with a sledgehammer.

That's crazy.

That nose is crazy.

That is crazy.

That is like, and to fix it, he's gonna have to have no contact for like a year.

Yeah, that's hard. And so he's not gonna fix it. He's just gonna deal.

How turned it is. Like, that— the bone.

I've had my eyes fixed and my nose fixed, and my nose was better for, for quality of life. Obviously being able to see was huge, but when your nose is broken, like, you have to understand, like, getting a haircut fucking sucks. You can't breathe through your nose, so your mouth's open the whole time. You're constantly breathing in fucking hair. Like, there's, there's so much—

That is— they ain't using the fucking thing.

You're choking Every time you eat food, like, there's something missing. Yeah, sleep. I wore a nose strip to bed for 10 years now, you know.

Now I have a scab, a permanent scab, because I peeled that thing off all the time.

Yeah, my nose is used to it now, but yeah.

When you got it fixed, which fight was it? Before the Max fight?

Yeah, right before the Max fight.

And then you could breathe out of it perfectly?

Yeah.

Is it still good now?

Yeah, he broke it, but he didn't break— he didn't fuck with the cartilage. He broke— he actually fractured the bone up top, so I didn't have to get a face cast.

It's another factor that when we were talking about the fight and, you know, people were talking about this matchup with Ilia, I said, you have to think about what he did to Fazeev. Fazeev is a super talented striker. And then you also have to think about the Max Holloway fight because he was pressing in the first round, but he got caught with a jump spinning back kick to the fucking face. And when that was— that's a— That's a game changer. And it happened at the end of the first round, and from that, it changed the tone of the fight because it was just dead on.

It was perfect.

Yeah.

Couldn't have landed any better.

The truth of the matter is, is psychologically, I was not— I was not there. I was not prepared mentally for the fight when I fought Max Holloway. It was such a different circumstance. It was, you know, a guy that wasn't in my weight class. It was a guy that I'd never thought about fighting. It was for fun, and that whole— the whole experience was so different than any other fight I've ever had when it comes to, like, being mentally prepared for a fight.

What do you attribute that to? Like, what was it?

Myself. My—

And us. Like, we told him to take the fight. My coaches. He didn't want to take the fight.

My coaches.

And then we told him that you're gonna keep the title contention fight, 'cause that's what they promised us. That's why he was very—

Every one of you guys, every one of you was like, oh, something was different. It was like, well, why didn't you guys fucking say something? He told me after the fight.

He told me after the fight.

Like, I knew something was different, but like, I needed to know.

He tells me afterwards, he's like this, he's like, I just didn't respect him. And I'm like, how could you not respect Max? And I didn't catch on to it. So it's like, I'm always looking for flags and things like that. And 100%, I take 100% responsibility because that's how we learn. Everybody makes mistakes. I remember the Tony Ferguson fight, I didn't give any fucking water, you know? Like, there's like things that we all learn from. But the thing, when he had told me that, I'm like, how did I not catch that from you, 'cause he's like, dude, he was a smaller guy, just didn't— and I was like, dude, Max is like one of the guys that I look up to from the outside. Like, he is talented.

I remember thinking, what am I looking for? Like, what am I afraid of? I kept trying to convince myself that I needed to be— I needed to find what I was to be worried about, and I couldn't find it.

So you always need that before a fight?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

No matter who it is you're fighting?

Right.

You know?

Right.

Yeah, and so like, I was, I've never been as present and like, I've never been able to retain a fight. And I, you know, before the knockout, I was there. Like I was in the arena. I saw the lights, I saw the people, I heard the people. Like I've never been there in my life. And I think that I can attribute that to me not being scared. And so me not, you know, me not being in a real, fight or flight.

Real life or death situation.

Yeah, yeah.

So you weren't fully focused. You could actually hear the crowd.

Yeah, I just— well, I could hear my thoughts, you know. I had thoughts. I've never had thoughts in a fight because I'm so intuitive and reactionary. And that one was just so— dude, there was so much. And so sure, the kicks, the eye pokes. No, I think I was not— I couldn't have beat him that night with the mentality that I had. And that was my last lesson to learn. I had made my less, you know, my lessons with Oliveira was like, I wanted it so much. I wanted it so bad and I wanted to perform and I wanted to impress my fans. You know, Rose had a fight that night and she fought like absolute garbage. And I, you know, and I told my coaches, like, coach, don't worry, I won't do that to you.

He said that right before we're about to walk.

Right before we're about to walk. I was like, don't worry, coach, I'll never let you down like that. And coach is pissed and everyone's, you know, my— the locker room's all fucked up because Pat's fucking weird.

Is that the Carlos Parza fight? Was that the same night?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was at home, and so there was just— and that was, again, that was my fault. I allowed those things to affect me, right? And to, you know, affect my fighting decisions rather than just being myself. And so that was a huge mistake. Another mistake was, you know, winning 2 or 3 times in a row and just kind of becoming complacent with how serious what we do is and how dangerous this game is and how much luck and chance are a factor every single night. And so, you know, I wasn't doing the extra credit. I wasn't sitting in the sauna at home, you know, and I don't know. I don't know why. It's just— and then I made that mistake probably into the Eddie Alvarez fight. Dustin Poirier fights, lost, and then I won 3 or 4 in a row, and then I completely went back to the same mindset of, "I'm the best in the world. Nobody can beat me." And I paid for it. And those 2 mistakes were huge, very, very big learning lessons. And then the Charles Oliveira fight, you know, I was like, I wanted it so bad, and then I made the moment so much bigger than it actually was because it's just 25 minutes in time.

Yeah. And I— it's all I can control is being perfect, my preparation for it, but then ultimately being there for 25 minutes and being perfect. And yeah, those are the mistakes that I made. I had to learn. I had to make those mistakes. I would not change anything about my career. I think the farther back into my career you go, the more special this moment is. And, you know, I think, um, in time, again, I— This is gonna age like— my career is something special. The way that I did it, The way that I lost, the way that I stayed on track, the way that I, you know, threatened retirement if I wasn't gonna get a title shot, the way I called my shots along the way, and the discipline I had. I mean, it's second to none. I've watched this sport my whole life. Since 1992, my dad showed me. I remember as a 4-year-old seeing it. I don't have a lot of, you know, great memories. I remember my childhood, but it's not like you have specifics. But I remember seeing it. For my first time in my dad's bedroom. We were sitting there watching it together and I was enthralled.

I was like, this is amazing. I love this shit.

Can you picture that? Him with like a baby bottle just squeezing it.

Ah! Yeah, I know. Dude, I just pictured it.

I got my vision blurred right now.

And then I watched it and I was a diehard fan. I've been a diehard fan ever since then. And especially in 2001 when it came along, I was, you know, probably in 7th or 8th grade, 6th or 7th grade. And just fell in love with it. And then, you know, me and Cole going into college, we'd go and sit at Buffalo Wild Wings for 6, 7, 8 hours, spend $5, those poor service people.

It's just amazing that you've been able to keep this ferocious mentality for so long. Because I remember when you first entered into the UFC, the Michael Johnson fight, I was so pumped for it, 'cause I was like, get ready, 'cause this is gonna be fucking wild. 'Cause I had been a fan of yours when you were fighting, what was it, World Series of Fighting? And then that Michael Johnson fight was everything that I thought it would be. Fucking crazy. Just a wild-ass fight.

Crazy coming-out party.

Dude, I giggled so many times in that fight. Dude, when you went against the cage and you were like this, you like look back and you were like, "Oh, I'm looking for the shot," and you're like blocking off the thing. And then you come back with the right hook and then you let him back in again, then you hit him with the right hook again off the cage. Dude, there's so many giggle sessions in there. I wasn't nervous 'cause just again, that's the way he fights. And I'm like, no one's gonna forget this fight.

Michael Johnson was— swinging.

Swinging. I caught him with that left hand a few times.

Well, that's the same left hand he knocked out Dustin with.

His left hand is so fast. He's fast as shit. It is so fast.

Michael has power.

Yeah, he does.

He is fast. Yeah, dude, and he was trying to win. I mean, he was going all out. You guys just emptied out in that fight. It was fantastic. And I was like, there it is.

Dude, the 3-rounder to get off the backflip took 3 rounds. He got up there, fell off, got up there, fell off. I was like, you can do it. I'm out there motivating him.

I always get so scared for your neck knees when you do that.

Like, please don't hurt your knees after you won the title.

100%, baby.

Hey, we're training for Khabib. We're over at high altitude. He's doing backflips off the cage, and I was like, stop. Do this after the fight.

Yeah, he's like, hey, no more backflips. I was like, today? Today's the day? Today's the day I become a bitch? Like, today's the day, huh? I'll never forget that moment.

I was like, you know what? I turned my head, I was like, stop.

That is kind of true, right? When you get something and all of a sudden you're special, then you start protecting it and then you won't be special anymore.

Yeah, right?

That's why I told him, I was like, "Today, today's the day, huh?" He's fucking crazy.

Like, I never want him to stop being fucking crazy. Like, everything about him in life, when you play golf with him, he's the highlight. He does shit that, like, you'll never fucking see. Like, it's like everything you do is the highlight. Like, his life is like his fighting. He's fucking wild.

So your mentality, you've never had to work on? I mean, obviously you've learned lessons along the way, but you've never had to like sit down and work on this mindset. It's always been something you inherently possessed.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, it's crazy. I think, I think people just complicate things so much. Like when you can truly understand that there's, there's, there is things you can't control, but it's not everything. You can only control what's inside of you. You know, you can only control how you perceive things. How you react to things.

The work you put in.

Obviously the preparation. Yeah. But it's, I mean, there's so much, you know, and I guess I always knew that something was coming because no matter how far off the road, you know, like I've made mistakes, you know, I've done, I was never an, thank God I was never an alcoholic and never, but I was, I could say I was probably a drug addict at one time in my life.

What drugs?

I don't know, I have never told my parents about this, so I don't know.

You don't have to.

All of them, all of them. I want, so, but it's gonna, and I know this is gonna sound stupid, but so I went to school for human services. I wanted to help people. A big part of that is helping people come off drugs, and I lost many, over a handful of friends, really close friends from drugs. Where I come from, we're not far from Mexico, the best. We had the best shit coming right across the border before it ever got cut up. And it was, um, it was my life, you know. Where I'm from is very boring. And so like, you chase— again, you know, we have it so good in this country, we're always trying to create chaos in order to feel something. And I guess that's what I was probably doing. And in college is when I really, you know, I was like, if I'm going to help people come off of drugs, then how can I ever even try to understand if I don't know what they're chasing. And so that was a part of it. And also a part was it felt good, you know? And so, you know, once I did certain things, I knew what people were chasing.

But then I always knew that something was bigger for me and better for me, and I had something to do. And so that was always— it was never a crutch for me. I was always like, that was awesome. Mm-hmm. You know, I'm not doing it again.

What is it in your head that where you always knew that you had something bigger?

Ah, well, probably my faith. I mean, I've been— my parents, the best thing they ever did for me was make me go to church every single Sunday and create a relationship with God through the word of Jesus Christ and just trying to live up to those expectations I knew, not that I was gonna be a champion or anything, I just knew that I couldn't take the easy way out. You know, when you're on drugs or when you're living a lifestyle like that, then nobody expects anything from you, nobody wants anything from you, and that's the easy way to live. You know, those, uh—

Right.

There's no pressure.

No expectations.

No expectations, no pressure, and I mean, it really is, I can understand how you can let that overcome the passion to live, you know, and, um, I don't know, I just think the passion to live because of my faith has never outweighed my desire to feel good.

I want to talk about the shift that you made in your career from being the most exciting guy in the world wanting to be the most exciting guy in the world, being happy with performing to the best of your ability whether you win or lose, to wanting to get the belt. What was— what started that decision?

It's weird 'cause I don't remember a time or a day where I made a change other than I'm not gonna get hit. You know, in the Dustin Poirier fight and the Eddie Alvarez fight, I absolutely almost broke them. And it was no different than any of my other fights. Nobody had just ever— same with Ilia, you know, like nobody had ever got past it. Nobody had ever been able to withstand the ferocity of my actions for 2 or 3 rounds. And then those guys did. And I was like, what happened? You know, and ultimately I put myself in a position and I got hit with a shot that took me out of the fight. And so after those fights, I was like, I have to not take these shots. And that was ultimately all I can say that I, that I changed mentally is I'm gonna— I don't want to get hit. I used to never care about getting hit because it's like, doesn't hurt. Nothing hurts in there. You don't feel nothing. It's never hurt. And so that was really just the mindset. I just need to not let them get me in a predicament where I'm not able to— where they have to stop the fight.

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So the shift, uh, but he, he probably from the outside, outside sources. Yeah, it's, it's definitely there, there was a shift and it wasn't just like an instant shift. It was the two losses in a row with Eddie and Poirier. Where he's like, "I'm winning these fights and I need to be able to get to the distance." And I was like, "All right, we gotta become a spot fighter 'cause you just drown people and you're— what's happening is you're making mistakes." We threw a low kick against Poirier and he got caught 'cause he's base-back lazy with his shoulders above his hips. So I was like, "All right, let's be sharp. Let's fight in spots." Then he goes on a 3-fight win streak where he's finding the right spots and putting people out from Vic to Barboza into Cowboy Cerrone. And that's where he's like, and then I sat down with him and I was like, do you wanna be a champion? And I was like, this is how you have to fight to be a champion is be smart. And he never said he didn't wanna be the most exciting fighter in the world. He would tell me after fights, he's like, I'm not even trying to fight excited, but look at me.

Yeah.

And it's like fucking, like, it's so amazing. Like, it's in him. It's just, how do we get you to sprint 50 yards, pull back for 100 yards and jog, and then sprint for 50 yards and like be able to know your red line. Don't cross over that red line. Hold red line.

Well, that is again the experience that you've had in wars. It was so critical.

Yeah, he could do it. Yeah, you don't want to make mistakes.

And it is, I think it's crazy. I think, again, the fact that they said that he had outstruck me in the first round, 39 to 32 or something.

You landed some hard jabs in that first round. Yeah, but—

Yours were devastating.

They were. He might have touched and thud-died.

But I'm talking about the perception. It looks like I'm getting hit. It looks like it's a— but I mean, I don't have special skin. I am able to see punches and—

And roll with them.

And roll with punches. If you watch my fights frame by frame, I'm not getting hit for the most part.

You're moving with the punches.

Yeah, yeah, it's be like water. Like, I'm constantly, you know, and intuitively making these calculations.

That's the scoring? That when you see that, I don't know who's counting that, but that's like amateur boxing. Amateur boxing, if the white glove touches you in the face, even if it's not a clean blow, that's considered, that's how you judge.

Yes.

And that's where Justin, I think, where you look at it from a point system, you can't just look at the screen, and that's why, you know, judges can't look at a screen and go, oh, this guy landed more, this is who won. You had the damaging blows, I think everybody knows that. Like, I get it, like I see the way you roll a shot, I see the way that you fade off, and allow the shot not to go through your skull and deflect it. It still gets touched to you, so it's considered that they landed that shot, but the damage is like, what you do to people by the way that you hip through, that you drive through people, is so different. Like Justin hits unlike any, he still, I still think to this day, we gotta ask the UFC, but they did a test on him to see who has the hardest bones in the UFC. He had the hardest bones. Dude, he kicks me and I'm just like, dude, I'm so glad, I feel so bad for Luke Kadeo.

He don't let me kick him no more.

Oh God, dude, Luke Kadeo just takes me. Let me tell you something about Luke.

On, he has his pad on, I kick him and his nuts swell up.

Dude, I get blue balls, bro.

And so I can't kick him anymore.

There's a nerve on the inside of your leg. I talked to a doctor about it, 'cause I'm like, bro, like he kicks people and they bruise on the inside of their leg and it's 'cause the shock through, but there's a nerve on the inside of the leg. I'd go home and I'd tell my wife, I'm like, babe, I got fucking blue balls. And she's like, from who? And I'm like, Justin. She looks at me like, the fuck you got blue balls from Justin for?

One of the things you were doing early in your career that I always thought was so wild was you were leg kicking people from a collar tie. Like you were a leg kick— And I was like, oh my goodness, like, put weight on them. No one's doing that. Like, you were one of the only guys that I saw that was doing that, that was from the clinch was leg kicking. You've got some fucking flexible hips, man, because the way you were able to do that from like right in tight like this, and then— and not just you pull the leg out, you're whipping in there.

Yeah, he pulls them to their lead leg, so he's making a base on that knee, and then it's just like you got a stump in the ground, you're just trying to bend that tree. Yeah, man, he's very good at that.

Let me tell you something about Luke, because I got into the octagon right after you won, and Luke and I looked at each other, he was like, "Ahh!" Dude, go faster!

He was so happy. He's like, "Joe was so pumped, he hugged me so hard." He was so happy.

It was amazing, because seeing all those videos and knowing he's in camp with you all the time and knowing how much he loves you, watching the happiness that he had when you won was fucking incredible.

No, Luke is one of my really, really good friends. He pukes every time before a fight. Every time. Before Trevor was in my corner, Luke Cornerman, he used to go to Arizona with me. I had no coaches. I would just do it in between wrestling seasons. And yeah, he would go down there with me and just wrap my hands and he would just be there.

Wow. He's amazing. One of the best human beings on earth, dude.

Yeah, I love that man.

Hey, did you tell him about the Sunday? So the Sunday before the fight.

Oh, fuck.

So there was one time, I think it was in the Cowboy fight where you were pummeling with Ben And he'd finish with a low kick on Ben every time, and I'm like, stop kicking your coach. And he looks at me, he's like, he's like, Trevor, he used to drag me back on the mats. He's like, I'm gonna kick— He used to fuck me up.

I was like, fuck you.

You guys got that? Just give me this fucking, give me this opportunity to beat his ass.

So we go golfing, Joe, and I'm like—

Sunday we go golfing, the Sunday before the fight. We get there Saturday, we go golfing Sunday, and you know, it's a Sunday, we never work out on Sundays. And Trevor, not Trevor, Luke and Ben got fucking pickled. On the golf course. They each had like 3 very, very, very stiff Bloody Marys. Luke bought like 12 beers. 'Cause we got there and they're like, hey, everything's on the president. And he's like, fuck yeah, I've never heard that before. Everything's on the president, I'm gonna drink. And so like hole 10 or 11, Trevor's like, let's fuck with them. Let's tell them that we're gonna work out later.

Well, we're gonna work out, but I'm telling them they're gonna be the workout.

I didn't know we were working out. I had no fucking idea.

Dude, we're fighting on Sunday. We're definitely working out.

I thought he was fucking with me. We're out there golfing, it's hot as shit, I'm sweating my ass off. I had no idea we were working out that day. He's like, let's fuck with them. Let's tell them that we're gonna work out. I was like, all right, cool.

So I told him I was gonna text him and give the workout, 'cause I'll lay out the workout for everybody. And I told Luke he was gonna go 3 rounds of sparring, full-on sparring. And then Ben's gotta go 40 minutes straight, no breaks, just grappling. Not wrestling, just grappling.

And they're fucked up.

Dude, and I told Justin, I was like, all right, let's fuck with him, see how he is. And dude, instantly, before I did text it, we just started talking about it. So we're on the way home, driving home, and dude, Ben is like, dude, he's like, he's like, I'll just take you down. And he's like, I asked him how many times you can take him down. As many as I want. As many times as I want.

Dude, he's like, 40 minutes, let's go 60 minutes.

So they went 20, dude, you got what, 7 submissions on your coach? He drug him back on the mats, it was so funny, 'cause I was like, dude, you gotta drag him back on the mats 'cause I gotta witness this.

It's funny 'cause I got a video. Dude, that's hilarious, dude. I wait till we get home, I go down and take a nap for like 2 hours and they just stay drinking up, my YouTube guy filmed everything, and they're just talking so much shit, how they're gonna fuck me up.

Luke was good though. Luke was like, he was trying to pass.

Luke's been through it, man.

He's like, you're really gonna say that?

Like, Luke's like, hey, I ain't saying any of this, not me, it's him. But they're making a plan how they're gonna team up on me. And so, you know, it's funny, then he got the video there and I'm beating Ben's ass. Oh no, actually, I went with Luke first and I was fucking him up.

And Luke's punching Ben because Ben won't jump in.

Yeah, he's like, what the fuck, man? What the fuck, man? That time, and he's asking for help, asking for help. I beat his ass, and then I did.

We have fun for sure. It was great. Great coaches. Our whole team is just— everybody's so dialed in.

Yeah, that whole week is one of my— every time we go, that whole week is one of my favorite experiences.

You were using the sauna in between workouts as well.

And before. So we were—

Nothing— that shit sucked. I say it was perfect, you say it was perfect. It was not. It was detrimental to our performances. Outside.

Yes. Yeah.

The humidity was there. I didn't realize it because obviously it's not, you know, it's not something I can worry about right now, but after round 1 I just remember thinking, oh fuck, I am so tired right now. How, how is this possible? And the amount of, the amount of fluid I lost—

thank God it was probably lost like 50, because it was in the 70s, dude.

Yeah, 70s with the cool breeze, you know, when you go out there, what you feel is the cool breeze, but just heavy air though in the fight, man. It was different.

Yeah, I hated the fact that it was gonna happen, but I'm glad it did.

Yeah, I'm— again, I would not change— again, I think—

How could you change?

It affects me, it affects him, you know. Again, I grew up in the country, he's he's a city boy. There's no way he's not a city boy. I don't know him personally, but there's no way he's not a city boy, you know. And so as a country, country boy from the desert in Arizona, like, I was hoping that it would be hot as fuck.

Hot as fuck. I was like, oh God, these outside fights kill me. Yeah, you know, he was—

Yeah, after round 1, they're like, dude, you were shaking.

Dude, he was like trembling. I was like, holy shit.

Well, it is crazy to ask people to defend a world title in a completely alien environment that you never have fights in. We've had How many fights outside? We've had the Abu Dhabi fight in like— was that 2009 or something?

Yeah, they did. Didn't— what was the setting?

I wasn't there. It was—

it was Adesanya did his famous walkout in like a— it was covered, but it was— it seemed like the environment was outside.

Poirier getting against—

In Abu Dhabi.

No, it was first in Abu Dhabi. Were they outside? Well, we did one in Abu Dhabi when BJ—

The big arena.

Lost to Frankie Edgar. That was outside in Abu Dhabi. And that was when Anderson Silva fought Demian Maia.

Is that where they had that Ferrari building?

The Ferrari building was there, but I don't know if it was in the same place.

They had a— did they have a fight in the Ferrari building?

I think they did, but I wasn't there for that one. I only went to one of the Abu Dhabi fights.

Yeah, it wasn't that long ago.

Remember we were talking about—

I would say within the last 7 years.

Remember the dude in Morocco said after the first round he was done, he was just trying to survive? He said it was so hot, remember?

Yeah, no, I mean, that's what I remember it being over there, and then, you know, once you realize the climate over there and the humidity, it's like, it doesn't fucking matter.

Do you remember Bodog? Remember Bodog fights? Yeah, Bodog fights him. They had a fight outside in the sun.

Yeah.

On the beach.

Caesar Palace in Vegas. Remember Caesar Palace? They had boxing. We got to fight there, Vernal Phillips against—

When they fought for World's 2 months outside. Yeah, that's right, they used to always do it outside.

World Series of Fighting around the NASCAR event.

Yeah, that was crazy. Duran versus Hearns.

Duran versus Hearns was outside.

They were great, yeah.

Yeah, that's true, that's right. At least Vegas is dry.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Totally.

Arizona, Vegas, Colorado.

Yeah, humidity was what I was training for with him was heat stroke. Like dealing with it where you can't breathe, it's heavy air.

So were you putting water on the rocks in the sauna as well? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And so what was the—

And we trained in a hotter gym. I'd turn the temperature up. Chirp in the gyms, just so he's getting used to dealing with a little bit more heat stroke.

We would spike my heart rate, and then I would go in the sauna 15 minutes, and I would come out and do 8 to 10 rounds. Mm, it was great.

I'm glad we did it.

Very smart, very smart, because that environment is— you mean, it's so completely different. I just ultimately, I think the best way to fight is obviously the way you usually fight, controlled environment. That's how it should be.

It was cool though, Joe.

You know why?

So cool. So we did— we went, did a rehearsal castle, okay? And I'm like, why are we rehearsing a walkthrough? Like, this ain't a freaking wedding. Like, just tell us where to go. The camera guys are always like, all right, your mark, here's 5, 4, 3. Yeah, I'm just following the camera. So why are we doing this? And then we go there and we get stuck in this locker room for 2 hours.

Hour, hour and a half.

'Cause of rain. And thank God that happened because then I started to go, oh, 'cause it's all unexpected. And how Ilya had said, hey, I'm a visualizer, I can't visualize this arena. And I visualize a lot too, so I was like, I felt the exact same thing when he said that. That. And that's when I knew, hey, these are gonna be some huge unknowns. And I had told him that night, because the rain was coming, like, it was crazy how the storm split around because it was all bright red. I was like, this is thunderstorms.

And they were talking about pushing the fight to 10:30 PM.

We had planned to start fighting at the start of the night.

At 2 in the morning, I was staying up till like 3 AM after the rehearsal. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna just start staying up.

But that's what was cool, like, the walkout Well, like having the soldiers, like just walking through the soldiers, there was that. We weren't able to take any of this in, Joe. And I can't really speak for him. I know where his mind's at. I couldn't. I couldn't from a coach's standpoint. I was nervous as fuck 'cause you don't know, there's no pattern I can take on right now and kind of put myself and breathe to it. It was very unique. And at the end, I couldn't even really smile. It was just like, dude, I'm just like blown away. Now I can kind of just look around slowly and just try to take in everything. Because it was very, very hard to go through that scenario with the pressure of us fighting on this stage at the White House. We're the Americans. We're a 6-to-1 underdog. That gets to you. That, you know, when you hear that over and over and over and over, it's, you know, you can— Oh, dude, you caught one. You caught a marlin. But having—

To your left.

Just that scenario. Was so unique. And then once it was over, then it was like, now I get to enjoy the White House and just being here in this, this, this great environment.

Look at that scene. There you can see it. What is he reading there? Is that the Declaration of Independence?

Yep. So we weren't in the room with him right there. We, through the rehearsal.

Yeah.

How crazy is that?

We got that. He's in the Oval Office stepping out.

And then all the soldiers walking through. So cool. Like having the two guys next to him.

And a lot of people complain complained about this happening at the White House, but you don't think this is cool?

This is like fighting.

Dude, how could you not like this? How could anyone not, this shouldn't be taking place at the White House, shut the fuck up.

Dude, life is a fight, world is a fight.

This is incredible to watch.

Inspirational.

It's a wild thing to watch. By the way, how much gold did Trump put on those walls?

Dude, crazy.

Look, he's got gold everywhere.

Look at these fucking gold designs.

When we were at the Oval Office, first thing I said is I was like, this thing is small as hell. Like when I see it on pictures, it like seems so big, and I was like, but the gold pieces wall is the first thing I was like, they dust that shit every day because dude, it was so clean.

Well, he put that up there. None of that was there. None of that was there. He was explaining to me there was no gold. I wanted to have gold. He's got a gold cherub, like a solid gold cherub that's above like one of the doors. He goes, if Putin comes, hopefully it doesn't fall on his head. It's like he's got gold everywhere. It's all him. He redesigned a bunch of the things in there. You know, he's a builder, right?

Yeah.

So that's why he wanted to do the ballroom. That's why he wanted to keep it, you know, he likes everything in gold. He's a gold guy.

What was that, Austin Powers?

Bro, watch, we were just watching you look at the Declaration of Independence before you walked out, which is also wild. Like, this is never gonna happen again. This is more historic than Rumble in the Jungle, more historic than, I mean, think about all the great fights that we've all watched as kids that were like, remember that? —this tops everything because of the scene, because of the fact that not only is it at the White House, but the American, who's a 6-to-1 on some books underdog, pulls it off in spectacular fashion. And just the seesaw of the fight—

Yeah, back and forth.

The back and forth of the fight was fucking huge because the second round was crazy.

It was like, "Oh, no!" And letting it go on again when— so our corner, all the coaches, coaches were like, dude, they're gonna stop it. And I said out loud, I was like, please let it go on. And I just wanted to finish, like a definitive ending, dude, because that would have been a point where it's like, especially with him going, hey, I want to go and continue. And then we have Goddard come out and say, hey, you are—

Thank God for Mark Goddard. Yeah. Okay, because if it wasn't for Mark Goddard, if another less experienced referee— He wanted out. You think he did?

He wanted out.

Yeah.

You don't— you know for a fact fact, you do not ever as a fighter say, I cannot see. It's over. And he was counting on that. He said he had already stated it. He didn't need to say it again. He did not think there was— I don't think he thought there was—

So you think that he called Goddard a turkey internally?

He was like, when he said, oh, you're gonna go fight, he's like, hey, I was playing that moment. He just like, I've done, you know, I've tried. And it might have been like, you know, the little devil on his shoulder trying to get him out. And then he reevaluated and re-thunked and understood that he had to keep fighting.

Did you say thunk? Thunk it.

Re-thunk it? Dude, that's a real word.

I think that's a real word.

I stopped him.

No.

I stopped him. Good. I stopped him twice. I stopped him twice that night. There's no doubt about it.

I loved it. I loved it.

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And then the punch is right where he landed that heavy knee, then he just starts chopping it where he got the elbow in.

Yeah, and then he has to quit on a stool. And if Goddard had just given to that referee, or that judge's, or the doctor's rather, desires, here it is.

I love how you punch right here, right on the spot. Yeah, I saw. Oh, right there, yeah. Oh, right where I just laid out.

Yeah, he did not like that. And that was the end. Crazy fight.

I mean, it's crazy how different— so again, being a fan of the sport, I've got to watch, you know, I would have usually watched this from— and yeah, it would have been the most fucking incredible thing ever. Being the fighter, you know, you're really not appreciating any of that because you're so locked into— it's like golfy, like, you don't know, but golfing, it's like certain swing thoughts. You know, and nothing else can come in, nothing can creep in. And so me looking at the Declaration of Independence, I was looking at it, but I didn't take it in as this being the Declaration. I was sitting there, I was like, okay, gotta reset his feet, gotta control, gotta move left, gotta move left, can't get against the fence, you know. And then those are the thoughts I'm having as the— through the whole walkout. And so I'm really not taking any of it in as it is. As the show or as the theatrics of it. Of course not. Watching it in hindsight, obviously, it's fucking awesome.

There was something special about you warming up with the American flag around your shoulder too.

I agree.

We were watching that. There was something special about watching you shadowbox before all this with the American flag on. I was like, if he wins, good Lord, if he wins tonight, it's gonna be fucking insane. And it was. The feeling of like joy throughout the building, throughout the grounds, like the happiness that everybody had seen, had been there to see such an incredible event and such an amazing cap to that event with your fight. It was just nuts.

It felt like a whole arena to me. It was crazy for the amount of people that you could see.

Here it is, to backflip in front of the fucking White House.

Dude, he flagged off.

Oh, that's gonna be a sick—

Dude, he flagged off.

That's a sick picture.

I rolled out of it.

It was— hey, tell me, tell me, what was it? Tell me that— what'd you use? Newton's law?

Newton's first law. Object in motion needs to stay— I just stayed in motion.

Stay in motion. Look at the size of that fucking crowd that was outside.

So you couldn't see this crowd, like I couldn't see this crowd, but you know what?

You could hear them and you could feel them, dude. You could feel the energy. I mean, even though there was only 4,000 people, did not, did not feel like 4,000 people. People. It felt like 100,000 people because all those people were behind us. You know, it was different.

How many people were in that place at that stage?

85,000 plus.

Geez.

Yeah. It happened so fast.

The size of the group outside was insane.

Yeah.

I mean, and they're watching on these giant screens and freaking out.

Like a concert.

Yeah.

When we were at the weigh-ins, it was like, dude, that's what I picture Woodstock being like. Dude, I looked and I could not see the end of the people.

Yeah, no, it was nuts. The weigh-ins were nuts. When we first walked out, I was like, holy shit, this is crazy. But it just shows how hyped people were for this event. You know, I mean, it was an incredible event. I mean, the UFC production team, they just knocked it out of the park, and then more importantly, you knocked it out of the park. It could not have gone better. This is the cap. It couldn't have gone better. And the most important thing was that you did have to overcome, that we did see a real back and forth, and we did see the skills that led people to believe that this guy is the number £1-for-pound fighter in the world. His fucking boxing is elite.

It is sharpshooter.

But I mean, my coach is a fucking genius. I mean, when it comes to like— again, it's really hard to— you always sound right in hindsight, but the strategy we had was so perfect to fight a guy like that. I mean, if you— I think if you ask him right now which way was Justin moving, he's gonna think I was moving right the whole time because my head is so, so heavy and I lean over to that side. But I was moving left the entire time. And he's so pointed that, you know, he, he's powerful here, but when you, when you put him here, like, nobody can push and sprint. Like, he's not ever going to take off sprinting that way as fast as he can. He's going to have to gather and reset and then, and then point and then go. And I constantly kept kept readjusting him, and it was so subtle. And that's what fighting is, is subtle, subtle movements. But I mean, his game plan was— was— and then his game plan, his mind, my ability, but really it's my athletic ability. Like, if people don't understand how athletic I am, and I think that is what surprises every opponent I've ever fought, is how you know, herky-jerky, twitchy, how explosive and how athletic I am.

And I think that's the biggest asset that I have.

Why do you think anybody'd be surprised by that at this stage? Why do you think they're surprised?

Because the human— 'Cause it doesn't look like that.

No, you're— Justin, I think you're looking into the Paddy fight. I feel like the Paddy fight, you— 'Cause a lot of people were like, "Oh, you look older, you look this," 'cause the way we fought. Like, our style, our game plan with Paddy fight—

How sweet is that now? Now. I mean, if you watch the Paddy fight, you would never expect— you would only expect punches coming from here.

That's all I threw.

Because he would pull, and I had to like wrangle them in, wrangle them in. And this guy, no shots, like palm strikes.

Like, we need to palm strike him, we need to keep him inside of our loop. And, uh, if you're throwing straight shots at Paddy, Paddy will disengage very long with his, his upper body. So he was throwing wild shots and then long uppercuts. Like, stay on the outside when you're throwing the uppercuts because Paddy's got very good knees coming in, so we can't get deep with the head. Very simple plan, but also it was like, make it chaotic, as most chaotic as you could be, uh, to be able to do that. Because Paddy, his blitzing was very fast. He's a very good blitzer. He'll, he'll blitz past you and almost like running type of punches, like old Vitor Belfort. But this fight is a lot different where it's now elbows in. We have to be tight in these types of positions, and we need to step to his center and get on his back foot line or outside of his back foot line line. And that was like a key factor to this one, is because Ilia is very front heavy and will bounce back and forth. So once he goes to this angle, we need to attack the rear shoulder.

And once he starts to reset, now we're going to be able to jab and stick the jab at the rear shoulder where your jab was landing. That's my favorite part, is the jab wasn't landing here where Ilia's got a very good slide. We're jabbing outside, so you're not doing inside jab coming under. You're jabbing from outside your shoulder, which is pushing him on his rear foot. And then once we started to pressure, my favorite part is the, the jab jab, pause, right hand. His left foot— Justin's left foot, when we go, has to be— has to be outside his rear foot, like right there. He opened his lead foot and he got his foot outside, and that's also so in case the right hand can't counter.

That was a giant moment in the fight.

The sound of it was crazy.

I almost— I wanted to shove his ass.

Oh, that was such a hard shot.

Do that one more time, Jamie, and watch his lead foot after the jab. Now watch his left foot after the jab, outside the rear foot. Boom. And that— because he's got a high shoulder. If I'm throwing a right hand down this point, if you were looking at me, Joe, if you're— if I'm here, if he gets his foot out, now the shot is coming from here. So we're gonna put him on the back foot and find that over, because he's got a very good shoulder tuck.

He also dropped that right hand down. Yeah, it was beautiful. It was beautiful. And it was such a giant moment in the fight.

Like, look where I started. I started with my back to was— and look how I left, left, mm-hmm, left, left, left.

But if you go out to the left backwards, where— that's where Ilya to me is the best. How we stop Volk, where he'll throw at you and then you go, and then he readjusts his lead shoulder almost to a southpaw. Super dangerous there. That was one thing we talked about. We cannot go backwards to the left because that's where we get square. And Ilya, dude, he's very front-heavy, so he will attack you quick, and he gets there fast.

Well, if he can recover from this, it's gonna be a big lesson, a big lesson learned, and, you know, I wonder if he'll still have those celebration dinners the night before.

There's no way.

He better not, dude. His team, that's up to his coaches, to be honest with you.

It's amazing. Hubris is an amazing thing. Like, people love that kind of confidence. They love that belief in themselves, and when someone pulls it off, people were talking for days about the Olivera fight. You know, he celebrated the night before. Isn't that crazy?

And it worked that time, and it played out great for him.

But the lack of experience being the nail, so much experience being the hammer.

Expectations. He never thought he would have to be here.

But you keep saying— I wanted to go back to this thing that you said that people don't think you're athletic, and I don't agree with that. I don't understand why you think that. I mean, maybe watches the Michael Johnson fight, he doesn't think you're athletic.

I got to college, you know, my freshman year of college, and I did a cartwheel to a backflip, and these guys— one guy was like, I would have never fucking guessed you could do some shit like that. Like, I just don't understand. You know, if you look at me, I don't look like an athlete. But dude, you want Ferrari?

No, I know, I know how athletic I am.

I just— what are you talking about? Perception? No, no, no, your perception is crazy. Listen, you look like an athlete. What the fuck are you talking about?

He, he said, dude, he sent me this picture when I first met him from, he went up to do a, a, a clinic with his coach up in Granby with Ben Charrington. And he sends me this video outta nowhere. I open it up and he's got a soccer ball and he's in this auditorium with the pads down on the ground and he's got his phone set up on the, the pads that are against the wall. He throws a soccer ball up in the air and he does one of those bicycle kicks. Never, he played just like one or 2 years of soccer. He did a gainer. He did a bicycle kick, landed on his feet and the ball knocked the phone off the freaking thing, dude. He hit the freaking phone. It was the coolest thing I've ever seen. I was like, bro, you are nuts. This guy snowboarding when we snowboard, 'cause I rode professional when I was younger, got taken out of high school for it. And he, this dude, he would catch things so fast in his tumbling. There was one time we were watching him and he was in moguls and moguls suck on a snowboard.

He does this 360, catches his edge, falls to his back and bounces off one of the moguls to a backflip right back into the moguls. And dude, these people on the side thought he meant to do that shit.

They were like, dude.

I was like, bro, his tumbling skills, dude, you're Freaking nuts, you are an athlete. I think everybody knows you're an athlete. Well, you're not built like Paulo Costa, if that's what you mean. Yeah, I just— You know, it's like you're not, you know, there's guys that have less body fat than you and guys that have more prominent muscles than you, but nobody looks at you fighting and doesn't think you're athletic. That's crazy.

I think it's the experts after the Paddy fight saying, oh, he looked sloppy. And some fights gotta be sloppy.

Those people are retarded.

Yeah.

That fight looked like chaos. Looked like you were gonna press him and it also looked like you were kind of disdainful of his ability to hurt you.

There you go.

Yeah. No, no, once I—

You know exactly.

Yeah, once I didn't respect his power, I was like, I'm fucking walking through.

Yeah, and that's what it looked like. It looked like you were just trying to make it as chaotic as possible.

You make it sound like you had like a water boy, like someone was like, the water sucks. And he's like, making the noises, dude.

No.

You don't look, you—

But that's also probably good thing that you think about yourself that way, you know, because it forces you to rise above and beyond anybody's expectations of you, you know. And I think one of the things about this fight that makes it so important is because Ilia was so dangerous, you had to get like deep in the zone. You couldn't have a moment like the Max fight.

Well, it was— the Max fight got me here. Without that, I would have never been this hungry. I said it was gonna happen and it didn't happen, didn't happen, didn't happen. Then it happened and it's like, okay, now I can, I can never let my parents see me like that again. That was, that was a driving factor. Like, I can never let my mom— I remember getting knocked out. I don't remember getting knocked out. I got knocked out. I don't remember anything. I don't remember him getting his hand raised. And it had to have been 40 minutes to an hour. And then I just, my first recollection is being in the ambulance and see my mom's face.

Can I tell you that? Can I tell that story? Story?

Yeah, yeah, tell me what I did, 'cause I still don't know.

So we're in the ambulance, okay? And you never know how you—

You were there too. You were there when I came back.

Your mom's standing outside the back doors and we're waiting for the driver. There's a medic in there with us, but he's good. But he keeps asking the same question over and over again.

I still don't remember any of this.

And I'm worried about like, you know, everybody's parents are different on how they react, you know? And his mom was just cool. Just like, I was so impressed. I was so impressed with her just spirit of seeing that happen. But Justin's laying there and he's like— he's cool and everything he does, so he's got like this cool like lay— like he's like, he's like, you know, just got stopped. And he's laying there and he's like— he'll look at me and he gets like his head— he's like, I got knocked out? And I was like, yeah.

It's like 40— this is like 40—

What round? What round? And I said, last second of the fight. And he goes, good for him, dude. Then, like, dude, I'm telling you, like 2 minutes would go by and we'd just be having normal conversation. And he'd look at me, I get knocked out, and I was like, yep, dude. It happened over and over.

You've had that happen with fighters?

Yes, but him saying good for him, the way he said it every time that he came back to it, like, that's the type of person Justin is. Like, if he loses in competition, the better man won that night. And that to me is something that stands out to me.

That's character.

Character of him saying when he does it, that, that subconscious traits that you have.

That character is also the character that allows you to reach your full potential.

Absolutely.

Because you're not being held back by any bullshit ego things.

Not fake.

Because there's a lot of people that are held back. As good as they are, they don't ever reach their full potential because they have some bullshit ego problems.

Absolutely. They care of what everybody thinks.

And that, in that situation, losing that fight in the last second of the last round and having that reaction, that is the truest test of character. Test of character that a man is ever gonna go through.

Yeah.

That is as true a test of character ever, in front of the whole world.

What I remember first is seeing my mom's face, though. I saw her face and I saw no concern. I just— she was worried about me, but she was not concerned.

She wasn't freaked out.

No, she wasn't freaked out at all. I was like— and that's when I— I never reset and asked if I had got knocked out again after that moment, I don't think.

No, no, once it happened I'd say you probably asked it 6 or 7 times, and then once that— then we were cool for probably 5 minutes before we went to the hospital. Then you're totally cool. The cool part about this, Joe, is those are some of my— and it sucks because he's taking a shot like this, but me as a coach and as someone that just loves fighting and loves the inspiration and what these guys do is those are my proudest moments. Winning a fight like this, it was proud, and, you know, take it in. You're going, "Wow, this is a cool spot to be in," and you have to be be grateful for it. But there's times where I'm caught smiling when my fighters are down. Like when, when Kamaru got kicked and I stood next to him with the biggest smile just because I'm like, dude, you went out on your shield, you were looking so good. And this is the way you stand up again, so important to me. Justin Salas one time with Tim Means, it was one of my proudest moments just to see his, his subconscious. Like, I love the mindset.

Hard Dude, Tim Means hits him with a knee, and he fights through it a little bit and takes another knee, and he goes down, and he's on the ground, and his right leg is still like moving, and he's like still punching, and he's out. And I'm like, dude, that's a fighting spirit. Like, there is no quitting. Like, you're fighting through being knocked out. And subconsciously, he's still in the fight, and his body is still reacting that way instead of shelling up and being like, I just got rocked, I'm gonna shell up. I could not wait to get in the octagon, and they're like not trying to let me in. I'm like, let me just get over to him and sit next to him, put some ice on back. When we stop guys, I'm always over to the other opponent first. To me, that's, that's the coolest part is being able to see someone go out there and do their best and then to watch them come back. And that's why I'm very, I'm very excited to kind of see what happens with Ilia. This is going to be a hard one to overcome, but I hope he does because he's, he's, he's that talented.

If he takes the right lessons, that's going to be a super inspirational thing to overcome. It's going to be hard, but I, I sure hope we get to witness this at?

I wonder if he's gonna stay at 155. There are big guys at 155. He's— he wasn't that big for 45, you know. You think about weight cutting in the modern era, like, you were— you're considerably bigger than him when you guys were standing next to each other. This is— there's a big difference.

I've also really focused on getting bigger last 3 or 4 fights. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I—

you were 83 in a Paddy fight.

I was 83.

183 in a Paddy fight. So he was—

I told I touched 80s this fight. We weighed in on Saturday at 11. Saturday when I went to bed, I think I was 184.

Oh wow.

And then I think when I woke up, I was like 176. That's how much water we're flowing. It's crazy. Our bodies are crazy.

Right, especially because all the weight cutting.

But I think when I got there, I was pissing so much. I was actually too hydrated for the drug test, so I had to piss 3 times. I couldn't drink water.

You were too hydrated for a drug test?

How's that work? Yeah, so if the piss is too diluted, then they make you do it again. Really?

Yeah. That's why, you know, doing it after a fight— I used to do it after the fight all the time. It's like a drug test. But your adrenaline's going, so you don't pee, so it takes a long time. It's like we've sat in locker rooms for hours waiting for the piss test. But when you're doing it after, like, rehydration, that's a shitty thing because these guys have to hydrate. Everybody's fucking taking as much fluids as they can, so that's a bad thing. So that makes it tough. But with the weight cutting piece, with him going back down, I agree with you. I think Ilia's a smaller body, but he's also, a big advantage for Ilia is speed. Speed. And when you go up in weight, that speed is a huge factor. If you see a lot of guys go up, like with Max, Max kept his speed when he came up. When he went back down, I think, you know, everybody was like, oh, he beat Max. He beat a drained Max.

Yeah, I think that weight cut down to 45 for him was brutal.

That's, and this is where, from like a coaching standpoint, if it is hard for you to make it at that weight, I care about the longevity of a person. And I've seen guys get dropped with jabs because of bad weight cuts.

Yes.

And that going back down, that's to me the scariest part in this fight game.

Well, I think there's two things we have to change in the fight game. One of 'em is weight cutting and two of 'em is your gloves.

Absolutely.

You gotta bring your fucking gloves in. But the weight cutting thing, don't you think Do you think that we need more weight classes? Or I shouldn't say that. I should say, do you think we need more weight classes?

I think there's many ways. I think you're gonna have to have some type of a weight class, and there's different ways to do it. Like maybe you have where you can't go over a certain amount of weight after you make weight and you weigh in a week out where you can really recover because—

But I think guys are gonna do it anyway and you're just gonna have to cut performance.

I think for me, I want nothing to change. I mean, we are grown-ass men and women, and we're making these choices.

Right, but you can make 55, and it's good for your frame. Now imagine these guys that are in between.

You understand how hard it is for me to make 55.

I'm sure it's hard. No, no, no, I'm not thinking it's easy, but you can make it. You've made it over and over and over again. But like, think about guys that are in between.

Yeah, like, should it be a 60-er or a 65-er like in boxing now?

70 to 85 is crazy. 205 to 205 is bananas. And then 205 to 265, that's—

Those weight classes are already watered down in a way. And so you're just gonna water it down more.

So these are my thoughts and my research that I've done that it's, I've talked to Dr. D about it and I want to get some expert, some doctor who can actually talk to me about this because when I started researching boxing and why is there so many deaths in boxing, boxing. What stood out to me was almost every death in boxing in the last 10 to 15 years—

Comes after—

There's every once in a while it's from a punch where they get dropped and they don't get up and they get hemorrhaging. Almost all of them are past the 9th round, especially the ones I'm talking about that don't take a punch. They're past the 9th round and it looks like they start to get tired and they're just like, hey, I need to take a knee and lay down, a lot of these guys are winning the fight and not even taking a lot of damage. And if we're cutting weight the day before, you're teaching your body to sweat and sweat and sweat. To me, I believe, because I've had a fighter where, you know, Kamaru on his last fight, we were cramping so bad, so scary, so freaking scary.

Almost got called off.

Dude, I was within like minutes of calling. I talked to the whole team about it. But if you dehydrate yourself— think of my lips, if they get dehydrated, they crack when I smile. And if you dehydrate your brain— and I had talked to Dr. D, I was like, could that be something? If you dehydrate your brain, would cause something? He's like, absolutely. And then I started to research that. But if you go back and look at all the boxers, and if we can get someone that could do their true research that understands this stuff, that to me is like what scares me about weight cutting, because you're training your body to lose that amount of weight. And when you start to do things in pattern patterns, you just de— took all the nutrients out of your body, and then you're going hard in a fight like that. And that was like the big thing with the Tony Ferguson fight that's kind of funny now, but it wasn't funny to me. I didn't give no fucking water for a 5-round fight. That is crazy. And the longer you take your brain to that point of dehydration—

Why didn't you give him water? You just forgot, dude?

Yeah, we were locked in. This guy don't train with water, so it was like, dude, I don't drink water. I train my water practice because everyone's like, you want water? I'm like, water's for pussies. No, I don't want water.

Talk about the mindset. You don't drink any water in training at all? No, he'll drink afterwards.

Like, we did this fight.

They made me this fight. Okay, so do you think that that, that Luke is my water boy?

No, because I— it doesn't— it can't— because I'm fucking working right now. I'm locked in. Like, I might not get water one day, you know? There might— I might want water.

Even when you're doing strength and conditioning, everything?

Nothing. I never drink I don't drink water during practice.

Wow, so you make sure you're hydrated before you get in there.

Yeah, I drink a lot after, and—

But once you're in there, you just going.

Yeah, I did drink water. This fight was different, but yes.

That's crazy.

Crazy.

That's crazy.

That's just me. That's just me being an asshole.

You hear about those guys that go through Ramadan. Ramadan's nuts. I know Belal was training with no water, and drinking no water during the day, and then training again at nighttime. And that's gotta be so hard. But going through hard training sessions and no water, so you do it, but so there's two things going on. One, I would think maybe you could do more work and get more reps and more this if you're rehydrating. But then the other thing is like, would you? And how much mental toughness are you getting by not— It's a crutch. —providing yourself water, right? It's a crutch. And the mental toughness thing ultimately won you this fight. Fight. There is a lot of fucking human beings at the top, top level of the sport that would have folded in that second round.

You did look the happiest of the Tony Ferguson fighters.

I never contemplated, not once, not for one second did I contemplate that I was done.

No, I mean, you— that's, that's how you fight.

He hit me, I was like, oh, fuck!

Did you get to hear him in the corner? He goes, dude, that was a good body shot. I was like, yeah, that was a sweet body shot. Who does that?

I know.

Who sits down and is like, dude, the look on his face wasn't like eyebrows like an A-frame cabin.

Well, even after the fight, you were talking about how skilled he was. You were talking about—

Yeah, I mean, I could go so many different ways with how I react to this fight. I just want it to be known how disrespectful he would have been if he beat me. If he put me to sleep, if his I mean, can you imagine how shitty he would have been? And I mean, it would have— it would have— if it was— and the world— and the world— the world would have been fucking shitty.

I was fighting for so much.

I was fighting for so much that night. You know, I'm never gonna let people— for one, I know how special what I've done is, and it would have taken all of it away with the loss, and I wasn't gonna let that happen.

How about the people calling it his loading gloves. Do you see the picture? The, the, the image? There's like rocks in his hands. What a compliment. Have they not watched any of his fights?

Yeah, what people saying I'm juiced, what a compliment. People saying I got bricks in my fucking gloves, what a compliment.

People are silly. You can't read the internet. There's always going to be someone saying something.

I know, but again, you go— I got here because I was petty. I, I read comments. I read comments. Um, they fuel you?

They do. They do. I've talked to him. I've told him not to do it because I'm like, bro, this fucks with so many people. Just, we had the conversation outside. Like, it'll cause your mind to go crazy. And he's like, I love it so much.

David Goggins takes haters and he records them on a loop and then plays it to himself while he runs.

Yeah, I mean, that's crazy. I don't need to have it on video. I know, right? I know what they're saying. I knew what they were saying every fucking day.

Right.

And that's, you know, partly why I won.

Well, it's, you know, that Teddy Roosevelt quote about the man in the arena, you know?

Yep.

That's what it is. It's like there's always gonna be people on the sidelines that are talking about shit.

You're never gonna make it.

It's impossible to make it. Especially at the level that you're fighting.

As ambitious as you are, you can never make everybody happy.

No. That's why it's hard to be a champion.

Which sucks.

The pressure.

Yeah, it really is detrimental to like, overall, like, what you're trying to achieve. And it's just— it's so hard.

Well, you can't make everybody happy because some people are just not happy, period. It's not like you being awesome is gonna make them happy. You just want them to be. Yeah, but some people are not— they're not healthy. They're not mentally healthy. Their brain isn't right. They haven't done the right things in their life, and they see success as being somehow or another— it steals their own personal joy. Other people's success is bad because they compare themselves to other people and they realize that they suck.

I love seeing things happen, good things happen for people.

Of course, because—

When Max knocked me out, I was like, good for him. Like, I'm fucking— imagine what he's feeling right now.

Yeah, but because you have given everything you have, you, you've truly maximized your potential. You've made mistakes, you've made great decisions, and ultimately you wound up winning the biggest fight of all time. No, to exceed But that's, that's why you can be happy for other people.

To exceed your expectations from 2017, to exceed his expectations from 2011, to exceed my own expectations is, I mean, I cannot describe how special and how good that makes me feel. You know, in general, like that was my goal.

My expectations of you, you didn't exceed them, man. You, you, I always had a feeling had a feeling that you were gonna do some wild shit. And after the Tony Ferguson fight—

You couldn't have said I was gonna do this.

No one could have predicted—

Listen, there was a lot of conversations that I had with people that were counting you out. I was like, I don't think— I think he can win this fight 100%. I mean, I said it on the podcast. I even said it to Ilia.

Like, Ilia was saying it was gonna be easy.

I've seen that podcast, and he was so wrong so many times. You know, not just the whole he has zero chance against Paddy. He said something about how— I probably sleep during the day more than I do at night because I party too much. It's like, you were so— you don't remember him saying that? He said that— he said something about weed, and you're like, I don't care about weed. Yeah, but for him to think that that's true is fucking insane.

And you have 5 loosies. That's just— dude, now he's got one loose and he's gonna have to—

Yeah, I was like, wow, what a fucking idiot. Yeah, like, to think think that I got here by just being a, a, a, a guy that drinks and, you know, has fun all the time. Like, that's fucking crazy. My life is so boring. I don't go to bars. I, I mean, I don't do any of that. I sleep— I sleep 8 to 10 hours every single night. I was sleeping 10, but it's too much, so now I have to sleep 8. But for this whole week, I was sleeping 12 hours every single night of the fight week.

That's nice.

It was so fucking nice.

That is nice. You know, it's just one of those things. If he wanted to watch your— you have a YouTube channel, he could watch.

Well, I mean, there's also something to be said about how I knew he was watching. If you go back to my other— like, we'll always show sparring, we'll always show me hitting mitts. I didn't show myself hitting mitts one time this camp.

I didn't show myself sparring one time this camp, purposely, because we were switching up the game plan big time. Like, the tight punches.

No, he had— he had expectations, but they were— none of them were based in reality, and I controlled that.

That's awesome.

Yeah. And then, you know, when I did make the— when I did make the, um, comment about his wife, you know, it was in a, um, in an interview like this where we're just fucking around, and I said it in jest. I didn't— it was 100% true. I was like, he's so fucking annoying, I couldn't imagine imagine being in the same room with him, you know, with his pompous attitude, you know, and you just trying to like hang out with the guy, but he's like constantly stealing all the thunder and it's irrational. And it's like, I would leave him too. Like, I mean, if that's my part, like, that's why I broke up with my girlfriends is because they were somewhat like that. I mean, and so I, I didn't mean it in a mean way. Like, I, I would never I would never dig at somebody and I would never make fun of someone's personal experience, but that was like, that was just my honest take.

You are the honest guy, man.

And I was joking, but it was true.

You just say what you feel.

I said so many true things to him. I said the, so many, I told him that he's gonna go to the second round, go to the third round, you're gonna be fucked because you're not gonna be able to pull yourself out of this, you know, with the way that you're thinking, there's no possible way you can have these expectations, face adversity, and then come out out in a positive way. There's no way it could happen. You're good. You could dig deep and you could be even more of a narcissist and it might work, but you, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna walk yourself into a situation that is gonna fucking be detrimental to you. And this is detrimental to his psyche, and this is 90% mental. Well, so again, I want to see him good. I, I hope things—

How he adjusts to loss, but you know, we'll see how honest he will be with himself. The strategy has to change. You, you can't just hit the gas like that. And we've seen that with boxers, we've seen that with all kinds of fighters. They just think they can just hit the gas. Well, obviously you had to make your own adjustments.

Yeah, you know how he overcame the, the Max fight? How? He adjusted. Sorry, but can you guys know—

Didn't you play golf every day for a year?

That's how you— 6 2 months straight. Wow.

Every day, dude. This guy got really good.

Yeah, DC was raving about it. He's like, I never seen anything like it. He goes, this guy's playing golf like he's been playing for years. That's crazy. It's really good, really funny. It's really— well, you know, that's the mindset that's coachable. That's a coachable mindset, competitive and also objective. You know, it's the same reason why you think you're not athletic. It's like you, you can look at yourself in a critical and then see what adjustments you have to make, where a lot of people are delusional. Yeah. And that delusional keeps you from getting good at everything in life.

You do what you perceive, dude. You got it. Perspective is everything. Like, how are you seeing things? And you always gotta see it from the internal, not, not spike, not, not peaks and valleys like this right here. Like we come home and even through the airport, we're like, there's no celebration. Like, it is what it is. Right afterwards, like—

And that crazy little celebration at the airport.

That didn't, what we did Someone was buying us drinks. Like, we got there, we got there a little bit early.

Should have been a fucking parade.

I know, but I don't want that.

Yeah, I know. I know you don't.

I don't want— you don't. But I have to do it because I do need to take advantage. Like, I am the champion. It's crazy, still can't fathom it, but I am the champion and I need to— I need to be the champion and be the champ, enjoy being the champion for a little bit.

And you need to look at yourself in the mirror and be be like, there's times to sit back and have bliss where you're like, man, I freaking did it. Like, there's times to really— I thought that would come down. Doesn't mean you run down fucking yelling out different brands of mayonnaise with no motherfucking clothes on and make bad decisions. You're like, what was that from? Oh shit, dude, we did fucking 3/5 of fucking vodka.

Um, are you going to continue fighting?

Right now I'm planning on it. Yeah, every—

because you were talking about going out again.

There's not— there's not something natural in me that feels like it's over. So that's all I can say.

Also, after a performance like that—

Yeah, I mean, I'm obviously—

Either way, though, either way, also capitalize, because the financial reward— financial—

yeah, but I'm in a— I'm in a place where it's like I deserve to be compensated for what I have done, 100%, not for what I'm going to do. Or I don't— I shouldn't have to fight next to be be— UFC 300, UFC 324, and now this. Those are the biggest stages that the UFC needed somebody to, to do something phenomenal, and they picked me every single time, and, and I delivered. I wasn't the main event of UFC 300, but co-main event, still stole the show even though I lost. And so I think I, I need to be compensated for, for what I've done. That's what I'm—

so you're talking about in the future for like your next fight? Like yeah, renegotiate!

No no no no no no, I'm not talking about for the next 5— I'm talking about the UFC should make a company and give me equity in that company. And you know, so I can build passive income like that. Like I'm not saying that's what—

have you talked to them about something?

Oh no, I would, I would. I've never asked. Luckily I have a personal assistant now, so she asks for things from me, but I've never been the guy the guy that asks for things. I wish, I wish people that were opposite of me that asked for things and get all kinds of things, I wish I was given those things without asking. Because obviously people know that it's appreciated and I like it, but I'm not ever gonna— like, I'm not taking this truck from fucking Armen. There's absolutely no way I would take a truck. He never shook my hand.

Oh, this is Armen Tsaryukyan. We should explain that. So Armen Tsaryukyan, he He bet $1 million on Justin.

His friend.

And won. He won like 5-3, I believe.

5-7.

5-7?

Is what I heard.

Yeah, yeah.

5-7.

So he's gonna buy me a truck, but I mean, I would—

What kind of truck?

Well, now I just saw yours. Get a Raptor. I have a Shelby Raptor.

Those are pretty dope. Those are dope.

But I think now that I've seen your truck, that will be my next truck.

Also, it has USA on the side.

Yeah.

You see the wrap?

I love USA. You didn't do that wrap? Uh-uh, Hennessy does that wrap.

Hennessy's the shit. I want that truck.

Oh, you need that truck.

Yeah.

Tell Armen to buy you that fucking truck.

No, I'm not taking the truck from him.

What the fuck? If I was Armen, I would force it down your throat. I would deliver it to your house and give you a hug.

No way.

You want him $5,700,000.

I don't have to ride around in a fucking truck that a dude bought for me every day. I don't know.

No, no, no, you won that truck. You won that truck.

We didn't shake on it.

He doesn't owe it to me. I don't give a fuck. Take that goddamn truck.

I might share it with you, Joe.

Yeah, take the truck, dude. It's— first of all, it's cool. Yeah, and he might also be your next opponent. Yeah, I mean, that's possible. That's the guy.

Yeah, he's the guy.

That's the guy. I mean, if there's anybody else in the division, that is the guy. I mean, now that Islam is up at 170, who else is there? That's the guy. I agree. Yeah, and what a division. I mean, holy shit. And now Charles is saying he wants to fight you. Been that. He wants to fight you. BMF. BMF and the lightweight title on the line. That would be Crazy. So there's fights available. Yes, there is. Big, big. What do you— what are your thoughts? Like, when you're thinking about competing, who do you think it will be? You think it'll be Arman?

No, no, I can't say that I have a name.

Do you think Ilia's gonna try for a rematch?

No, he doesn't get a rematch. He can try, but he doesn't get one. Wow. He quit on the stool. He quit twice. I stopped him twice. What else do I have to fucking do? Plus Plus his next challenge can't be me. He needs to fight Paddy or someone like that.

Does Paddy have a fight scheduled?

I think he's fighting—

Saint Denis? Yeah.

Ooh, that's a tough fight.

It is.

Yeah.

Benoit's a beast. Tough game.

It's a fucking crazy game, man.

It's a crazy game. It's the craziest game.

By far.

I mean, think about where you were when you lost to Max and then where you are now. Just like, think of the highs and the lows.

It wasn't that long ago either.

Was not that long ago.

Go. Now you got the BMF champ wanting to fight you.

I have every belt. Like, I have 3 belts, 3 real belts, 2 interims, but those are fucking real belts. A real belt, the BMF belt, and then the UFC 250 belt.

Yeah, the UFC 250 belt. No one's so cool, dude. There's only 2 of those.

It's so heavy. I mean, the other belt's heavy. That shit is freaking heavy.

Being a fan of this sport, like, what do you want to come in here and do things that are not are not easily attainable.

Yeah.

And I've done a few things that are impossible to obtain— attain. 9 bonuses in my first 7 fights. 16 fights in the UFC, I probably, what, like 12 main events?

Yeah. 10, 11, 12 main events. 17 bonuses in 16 fights.

And to be put in the main event of a UFC fight is fucking huge. Like, you know, you go on the poster. Not many people get to experience that, and I've done it almost every single time. Time. And so, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's— I've done something unattainable.

It's got to feel good.

It feels great.

It should.

It should. As a fan, it's awesome to have guys like you out there. As a fan, it feels good.

Right. As a fan of yourself.

As a fan of the sport.

As a fan of the sport, getting to see what you've done.

Yeah. What did you think about Cyril Gane? We didn't do a show.

We didn't get to see it.

We were in the locker room like, are you guys going to go to a different staging room? Room as soon as Bruce Buffer starts announcing. So they took us into a room with no screens. That's probably where the video of me shadowboxing with the flag.

Yeah.

That's where—

so we were in there for like 30 minutes before I walked, and we could hear, you know, a little bit. You hear that? I heard the ding of the, you know, the end of the round, the horn. I was like, okay, was that round 1? Yes. And then you hear nothing. And then I didn't even hear the finish. Like, I didn't hear the crowd roar or anything.

You couldn't hear the crowd.

And then I heard I heard, and still. Yep.

Right?

Yep. 'Cause he was—

No, no, no, they said and new 'cause they were both gonna be new.

I thought I heard and still.

No, we heard gone. We heard gone.

Yeah, they heard gone. I was like, oh fuck, he won.

That guy moves like a cat.

It's crazy. For a heavyweight, I love watching heavyweights that can move. Like, remember the Mike Tyson era? Just watching, I was, I love watching Mike Tyson and just watching all the guys he fought a lot. Heavyweight boxing was so good at that time. People used to jump rope. Now it's like, I'm not gonna say that all heavyweights are lazy, but you know, my knees are bad, I'm a big person, like those guys can move and Cyril Gane is one of those guys.

But he's the most— He's so fast. The thing about him is he started out as a basketball player. So think about basketball, it's all these plyometrics, you're constantly changing direction and moving and jumping.

Agility.

Yes, it's all agility and that translates so brilliantly to his striking. Striking style because you got a guy who's £248 who moves like a middleweight or moves like even lighter than that. I mean, really moves like a welterweight almost. He's fast and just very agile. And when you notice it is like, 'cause you know how good Pereira is and Pereira getting lit up on his feet like that and then drop with a jab. It's like, woo.

Yeah.

Perfect timing.

And it's heavyweights. Like, those are big dudes.

Yeah.

Like, obviously Pereira's put on some weight but it's frame size.

Yeah.

It's, you know, Pereira's got a big frame, but it's—

There's levels.

Your body's been that weight for a long period of time. Like, it's again, that consistency. It's MMA guy going into boxing. Yeah, they're shorter rounds, but you're hitting sprints every round. Like, it's a different, like, there's, you have to do it for a period of time to be able to adjust to that. That's a different, it's everything that you do, you have to slowly go into those positions. You can't just jump into it.

And when you think about how big he was at 205, it maybe would've even been better for him to not really put on much weight.

I agree 100%.

It's not like Cyril Gane's a grappler.

And you got to be fast.

Yeah, you got to be fast.

Like, your speed's a factor.

It's a giant factor. And he's got insane power. I mean, his power has always been heavy.

He'll carry that power. Absolutely. He's not gonna lose his power.

Because he was so big, he was 251, and I was thinking, man, now it's like, even though you have more power, you're also moving around with extra weight on your body. Like, you're, you're weighed down more by grabbing Gravity. I mean, Gane looked so light and so loose. He's just like— that style for a heavyweight, light on the toes like that, is so unusual.

And not allowing Pereira to set his feet.

No, never. Like, that's very smart. And even like feigning takedowns, it's not like he committed to those, but he's got him thinking about— look at it, drops him with the bottom. Now here's the question, because one of the things that Pereira is saying is a lot of— there's an illegal shot. A lot of the shots were illegal into the back of the head, but a lot of them were to the side of the head.

Those are close.

They're close because they can land—

And the first one—

They're also moving. When they explain it to you, it's—

Yeah.

Trevor?

It's a 2-inch line down like a mohawk.

This whole apron right here. But it's like, this is legal, this is legal.

Yeah.

This is legal, this is illegal. Legal, illegal.

I mean, a couple of those shots definitely landed illegally, but there's also—

No, it was a hammer fist. Hammer fist first shot.

Did you see him drop his head down to the hips?

Yeah, exactly. So you're moving, you know.

So that's legal? That's illegal.

Yeah, there's a couple illegal ones.

There's probably 3 or 4.

Right, but it's also movement and chaos. It's not like he's trying to deliberately—

That's like poking someone in the eye on purpose. Like, if I was that good, I would touch their chin.

Right. How was the fight stopped?

That's a lot smaller target.

Was the fight stopped there on the ground?

No, no, it kept going. This is actually the finish of the fight right here.

Okay, if that was a finish—

He caught him with a big elbow right here and rocked him I mean, Pereira was in real trouble. I mean, it was— he got fucked up. And Cyril Gane did a fantastic job. He really put it on him.

Should you ever stop a championship fight on the feet?

This is it right here.

That was it right there.

I would have.

At that point, yeah.

That looked like a stoppage.

I'm not saying it wasn't.

I haven't watched the fight.

Here's the stoppage right here. You can see it.

I haven't either, and I'm just watching this. Yeah, that's—

like, he fell with his hands raised. It was cumulative. It was so many blows. Those. Maybe he could have taken one or two more after that, for sure. But Pereira is pissed off at Herb Dean, and he's saying Herb Dean should never referee again because he allowed those shots to the back of the head.

I mean, you're in the moment. I mean, yeah, but that's natural for a fighter to do. Like, like, well, if a situation you want to bring— first off, you got to bring awareness to it so they're not— you know, they're— you have to always be aware of, hey, I could have did better here. Yeah, because that's how we all grow. So we need to do— need to talk about it, but from what I just watched here, and I haven't watched the whole fight, was the fight competitive at all?

Yes.

Okay.

The first round was very competitive.

Okay, so that would change a little thing, but from what I just watched right there at the end, that was, uh, that looked like a good finish to me.

The refs have such a tough job. I've been— I'm notorious for being really hard on these refs because, I mean, it's— they— you expect them to be— you need them to be perfect. Their main job is to protect you. Uh, when I fought Michael Chandler, I'm still— and again, I only speak about it now because I've never had a retraction from the referee. Whenever he poked me in the eye and then he didn't get in between us and he let him hit me with a huge shot, and then he doesn't give me my time to rest— not rest, to recover. And there was only 5 seconds left in the round, so it turned out that I got a break anyways. But he goes in there, he says, are you good? I said, no, I'm not good, he just poked me in the fucking eye. And he says, okay, but are you good? And so then it's like, can I still fight? So I said, yeah, I'm good. It's okay, go.

Who, what referee was this?

The guy with the braid that he puts in his—

Mike Beltran.

Yeah, Mike Beltran. And so I was very upset that he let Michael Chandler land that, that shot. And I, I know why, he was so scared of the fucking heat we were throwing going, that he didn't want to jump in there and get in the middle of it. But his job is to protect me, and he failed. He failed so bad right there. And so, like, after the fact, I was like, I need you to acknowledge this so that you do not ever let that happen to another athlete in there, because you fucked up so bad. And, you know, he's trying to justify it, and it's like, what the fuck are you doing? How can you justify this?

Mm-hmm.

And so that, for me, that, That pisses me off. And then the decision not to give me my time, like, I need an explanation.

Yeah.

You know, and 'cause I need to know that you are gonna learn from this experience. And for right now, I still believe that he doesn't think he did anything wrong. And so I'm still upset about that.

Well, once you say to someone—

It's 'cause we're petty, we're petty, you know?

Well, you should be in that situation because when you say to someone, you got poked in the eye, are you good? And you're like, "Yeah, I'm good, but I got poked in the fucking eye," and then you're supposed to say— 1 or 2 seconds.

You have 5 minutes.

1 or 2 seconds.

"But are you good?" I said, "Well, yeah, I'm good." But you're supposed to— He says, "Okay, go." "Are you good?" is not the right question. You have 5 minutes. "Are you ready to fight? Can you see? Do you need to bring in a doctor?" There's a series of questions, but the "You have 5 minutes" is very important. For a fighter getting poked in the eye, you have 5 minutes to recover.

Yeah, I didn't feel like— I didn't know that. I didn't know at the point. I was like, I feel pressure in my face right now. Like, I don't— this feels—

You're not gonna know for a couple seconds.

Yeah, I don't know.

And you're gonna blink a little bit, move around a little bit. All right, I'm good. And that's when you're— it's supposed to be very clear. That's when you're ready to re-engage.

And that's what I'm saying. That's the mistake he has to learn from, because it was such a— and after the round ends, I walk over to him like, dude, get your fucking head out of your ass. What the fuck are you doing? He's like, go to your stool. I was like, no, what the fuck are you doing? What are you doing? Like, your job is to protect me. You just let me get hit with a huge fucking shot. What is going on? And he's like, go to your stool, go to your stool. And I sit down and then boom, never thought about it again. But still pissed off about that one.

You should be. I mean, that's— that makes sense.

Who's the ref that— against Khabib? After the fight, he corners me in the hallway and he's like, you know, I know you— I know you would never 'Never tap.' I was like, 'I tapped 3 times.' He's like, 'No, you would never tap.' I'm like, 'I'm like, dude, from the horse's mouth, I'm telling you, I tapped.' And he still was like, 'No, no, you wouldn't tap.' I was like, 'What the fuck? How can we get through this?' Like, I tapped 3 times, I went to sleep.

So that was tapped and you went to sleep. I've seen that.

Yeah, I tapped 3 times.

100% you tapped.

100%. And he's like, 'No, you would— you know, I know that you, with your— the way that you compete. Who's the referee? What's the guy's name? I hate to— I don't even want to throw Herzog— I don't even want to throw him under the bus, you know, because it's like his intentions were good for me, you know. He believed I was—

He gave you a chance.

He gave me a chance, but like, I fucking tapped, man.

Like, I did. The fight should have been stopped, and I went to sleep because of it.

And luckily there's no detrimental and chronic, you know, long-lasting problems because of getting choked out. So I mean, there's no repercussions. Yeah, there's no concussion, there's no TBI. Like, it really is not detrimental at all as long as you don't hold it too long and I die. As long as I wake up, I'm good, right? And so I was like, okay, like, the repercussions aren't as severe, and so like, whatever, I'll just let this go. But ultimately he didn't— I mean, I was— even when I told him, he didn't believe me.

That was the first thing you said when you jumped up. You went over to to him, and then you guys had the conversation afterwards. But you went over to him saying, dude, what the fuck, I tapped.

Yeah, dude.

And then he's like, no, you didn't. Then we seen him later, but that was the conversation. No, he didn't.

I was like, dude, I tapped 3 times. I tapped 3 fucking times.

Yeah, it was pretty obvious. People make mistakes and they don't see things.

And everyone was like, oh, you said, you know, you're some kind of fucking, you think you're some kind of Superman, why would you tap? It's like, when your life is ending, you know, you're a fool if you don't understand that. Like, I knew I was dying, and that's just where I was.

Yeah. So that's how crazy you are to everybody. He said their eyes are like, no, dude, like, I know you better than you do. You'd never tap. Like, you kind of fight like that.

That's what I mean. People think the best—

That's how he presents.

The best thing up to this moment is people, people don't give me credit for my intellectual abilities, and I've also played into that and I've also understood how big of an asset it is for people to approach me like that, you know, thinking that I'm just some animal that doesn't think or feel or whatever, whatever people think, or think I'm retarded.

Well, I think what it is is when you are such an animal, people think you can't be smart.

Yeah.

Because a smart person would be aware of the consequences and wouldn't have the courage to fight the way you fight.

Yeah.

That's all it is. And they— and people who don't have that kind of courage coverage. They like to dismiss people that fight like savages because they go, well, savages can't be smart. That's not right. That's not correct. People, it's like you see a really hot woman, you go, ah, she's gotta be a retard.

Yeah.

Like, no, some of them are really fucking smart and also hot. You know, like the world is confusing and you can't categorize people and put them into things, little, little, uh, you know, little fucking boxes just to make you feel better. Yeah. That's all it is, you know.

And you're— And the thing is, I never signed up— like, when we were walking out to the press conference, there's like 12,000, 15,000 people out there. I look at the guy, I was like, dude, I never ever signed up to be a public speaker. What the fuck are we doing here? Like, I never wanted to be in this where I talk in front of this many people. Like, that's not what I prepared myself for ever. And now I'm in this situation where I have to, you know, every single word I say before these fights is analyzed by the world. Like the whole, you know, my father is my dad. Like sometimes I get tongue-tied. Sometimes I misspeak.

I do too, and I talk for a living.

That's what I mean.

It's fucking normal.

But nobody, if people understood, if they had to listen to themselves, they would understand that they also make mistakes. And so it's like, fuck, man. Like I can't be perfect. I'm sorry. I really wish. I didn't mean my dad was my father. Even though, you know, it fucking makes sense and it's true.

Listen, you're dealing with a bunch of people that have to write stories.

Yeah, they have to.

It's not about writing a story because something's interesting. They have to make a story no matter what it is. Their job is to create content. And when your job is to create content, you make content out of nothing. And it's not usually, it's usually not good.

Yeah.

And that's what they're doing. Doing. They're making good deals.

If I could have been mentally coached, it would have been in that aspect.

Public speaking?

Just like—

I think you speak very well.

No, no, it's like, uh, I just— even— I guess there's no lesson to learn. Like, you just have to do it. It's through experience.

It's like fighting. You just do it a bunch of times and you get comfortable with it, or you're naturally talented like Conor, you know. Who the fuck is that guy?

Smart guy.

Yeah, he's great at that. Like, he's fantastic at that shit. I mean, that's where he shines.

You ain't lying, you are like Tom Petty. Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. You are petty, dude. Who cares what people think? No, I know. I think he speaks great, right?

I like, you know, I like to see what people are saying about my— our interview and the, you know, because I want to see the perception. I want to just keep inspiring.

Yeah, but the thing is you're asking for the perceptions from people that you would probably never fucking talk to in real life because they're dumb and annoying.

What?

And those are the people that are most likely gonna comment. Yeah, the people that are most likely gonna— you think Michael Jordan's out there leaving YouTube comments? No, right? It's not people that have their fucking shit together and have big goals, 100% people who are really dialed in and really fucking disciplined, and the people whose opinions you'd respect. They're not leaving comments. They're certainly not leaving shitty comments. You nailed that. That's just the reality. And I'm not hating on these people, I'm just saying, like, I would have been one of them if you— if somebody gave me a fucking YouTube account when I was 17, I'd be posting and the most horrible shit about everybody, right? Everybody would. You're a kid, you're— or you're a dumbass, you don't have your life together yet. But that's the type— you can't listen to them and take that as gospel because it's just not.

Just seeing him walk through the airport and just everybody's perception when they see you and meet you is so great, dude. Like, it's like people did— like, like, bro, the haters—

you— if the haters met you, they're like, bro, I'm a big fan.

Yeah, but still, but it's— but one of those things is like the inspiration on people people like, everybody comes up and they're like, you're a favorite fighter. Like, I have the brand that you're the, the, your favorite fighter, favorite fighter. Like, that is unique. Yeah, that is like such a cool thing. Like, you just keep inspiring and very proud to be you. You should be, should be so proud. You should be. Yeah.

So, um, I asked you after the fight if you're gonna fight again. You said you promised your mom you weren't gonna make a decision. And so it just settled in. I mean, we're today, we're here, it's Friday. The fight was just Sunday, so it was 5 days. Go. So now you're just like, fuck, you can't— how do you not after that? I mean, you're the fucking champ. It would be great to go out like that. It'd be the— an amazing cap, but also great to have at least one more.

Yeah, we'll see.

People like to watch chaos at the highest level.

Controlled chaos, you know, it'll never be that chaos again because it'll never be like—

It's hard to understand.

Fighter jet flyovers.

It's hard to understand how Dave how dangerous this game is if you don't do it.

Right.

And so—

Is it impossible?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that'll be a huge— that's a huge factor. There's a lot of variables that I have to contemplate when it comes to that decision.

Do you have a timeline in your head?

I do know— so you can't remember a time I fought 2 times in 6 months in the UFC. I've fought 2 times this year already. Body in less than 6 months. And so I'm gonna take the rest of the year. I need my body to heal. I mean, I have— what's the fucking diagnosis? I have a severe bone edema in the tip of my fibula that happened on Christmas, and I have been dealing with that since Christmas Day.

So a bone bleed, like a bruised bone?

Bone bruise, yeah. It's in the bone marrow of the tip of my fibula. Tip of my fibula clacked against my femur, tumor, and it caused a huge— a deep, deep bruise, and I cannot get it to heal because I went, you know, I was going through training camp. It really hurt after the Paddy fight.

When are you leaving? When are you leaving today?

We fly out at like 6:30.

It's 3 o'clock. I want to see if I can get you into Waste Well. Let me text Brigham and see if they could jab some fucking stem cells in there before you—

I mean, I've got— I've gone to Vegas. I've got stem multiple times. I got PRP.

Where's the special place?

PRP put me on crutches. It was crazy. And then I did a cortisone shot on the Friday before I left.

Wow.

And that, that helped a lot.

Well, not training is really what it needs, right? And have you been doing any hyperbaric chamber stuff?

No.

That's huge for recovery.

You have no idea how against my process you guys would be. I mean, I think I got 2 probably had 2 massages this camp.

That's amazing. Well, it's really funny if you look at the difference between Ilya Toporya— has a YouTube channel as well where it's fantastic, really goes into depth— but they're using like all this high-tech neurostimulation headgear, and he's doing all these different things, and it's all—

You see the video It's got him doing that and then me taking a 420 dab. Yeah, exactly.

Did you see our video where he had the dog shocker on his forehead? Every time he got straight with his legs, it got flat. I hit the button, he's like, "Ergh!" And then he bent his legs again.

No, we covered our eyes and threw balls at each other.

Yeah.

Trying to tap into those intuitive abilities.

Yeah, right. Yeah, with your eyes closed.

But I mean, dude, like—

Careful.

I come from the fucking dirt, you know. My parents fucked up. They didn't put a golf club in my hand at 4 years old. They threw me in the dirt, and, you know, I became comfortable with the uncomfortable.

That's a giant factor, though. Being comfortable with being uncomfortable is a huge asset. Yeah.

It's such a—

It is.

With everything in life. With everything in life.

I think wrestling is definitely, definitely has has, is the biggest variable when it comes to my success. I mean, the mental, the mental side of it. Like, nobody can, it's very similar to fighting in the fact that nobody can help you. You know, it is against you, all the blame is on you, all the success goes to you, and you can never use somebody else as an excuse. Any team setting, I played football, I played baseball, soccer, swim team, Swimming team's a little different, but you know, there's always a justification for why you failed or why you lost when it comes to those, and you could always point to somewhere else, or at least a piece, even if it's 1 or 2% somebody else's fault, then you can justify it, you know, the loss.

Yes.

In wrestling, that's never the case.

Not only that, it's a combat sport that's acceptable in high school. Like, it's a combat sport that you take in junior high school, you take in high school, kids learn, like, there's, there's guys out there that are different. They're working harder than you, they're more aggressive than you, they want it more than you, they put in more time than you. And that's a— that's a lesson that's very valuable when it— because kids get delusional about what their abilities are, how special they are, who they are. When you get fucking flatlined by some dude who just fucking picks you up and slams you on your back and pins you, and you're like— and he could do it anytime he wants. And this is the reality of training with this guy, like, over and over and over again. You're like, oh great. He lateral drops you in front of the whole class. Oh great. Like, this is— this is reality. Now you're either gonna get better, or this is gonna keep happening to you over and over and over again. And the mental toughness that comes out of kids that grind it out in wrestling and learn how to wrestle uncomfortable, learn how to cut weight at an early age— all that shit's terrible for you, but the mental aspect of it is fucking undeniable.

Mm-hmm. Reliable. Think about how many great wrestlers have become great MMA champions.

Absolutely.

It's the most important foundation.

And great business people. I watched a study a long time ago, they said that boxing and wrestling created the best employees because accountability.

Yes.

You know? And again, the cutting the weight, like you're responsible. That's what I love about Justin is what makes it so nice to train him is high-level people. I've had the luck to be able to train some high-level guys lately and I don't have to deal with any shit. Like, you know, and it's, if I hold myself accountable, then there's, we don't have to have these deep conversations or get our feelings hurt that we're just true to it. His accountability for everything is just, there's nothing like it. And I credit that to his parents. His parents are just such amazing people.

Yeah.

And the way that they had raised him to hold the, you know, 'cause he screwed up a lot as a kid. I told him if we were hanging out when we were younger, we got a lot of trouble. 'Cause he reminded me of myself, super hyper, so like making super bad decisions. Decisions, but getting punished, getting grounded, getting not— not being able to go out late at night, like strict parents. And that, being able to understand that there is rules in life and you have to be accountable. If you screw up, you got to deal with the punishment. And that is— it comes from your parents.

I agree. One of your parents being such good people, um, so my mindset has always— since I was a kid, I have looked up— so the reason I take comments on line and I read them, I've always looked up and given every single person I've ever interacted with the benefit of the doubt of being good. And whether it's what they're saying, what they're doing, their actions, everybody's been my role model. I've never, never looked at myself as a role model. I've always looked at whether— no matter what, I— even strangers, like, I trust that they're gonna— that they're good good. And that's where I start my— that's where I start everywhere from. And, um, so reading comments online, like, I, I truly take into account what, what I'm reading, you know. And I don't know why, because I know it doesn't matter a lot of the times. A lot of these probably fucking 13, 14-year-old kids, but I, in my mind, they're 50-year-old, you know, men with experience. And I just try to use as much— Yeah. And as much of the readily available information comments, words, action as I can from a place of like— I feel like a child in a sense when it comes to like interacting with people.

And I don't know, I don't know why that's how I take it or that's how I do it, but it makes everything, you know, a little bit better. And I'm not as disappointed as much, cuz like once I learn that they're not that, they're not good, and they can't help me, then I don't be like, oh, that's a bad person. I'm just like, okay, I'm not going I don't want to have that experience again.

Well, that's a good perspective. It sounds like you use it then, and that's— listen, everyone's different, and if you can handle it and you don't get mentally ill from reading comments, dude, that's a rare—

you're a rare person. We had many conversations. I love human services.

That's what my— I went to school for human services. I love to help people. You have no idea how much joy it brings me to assist people, to make people's life better. To lift someone's spirit. I mean, those— that is what makes me feel alive. And that comes through my faith and through my parents. You know, my parents are such good people. They deserve so much more than most parents because of their actions and their example that they showed for me. And yeah, I'm just so grateful to be the person that I am because, you know, it makes life easier. Mm-hmm. Life is easy. Life is so easy when you're not concerned about what people think, when you're not worried about things that you can't control.

Well, it's also easy if you're a good person.

It's easy. Well, I'm telling you, but I couldn't be a good person without the example of my parents. You have no idea how good and naive my parents are. And when I say naive, it's in such a good way because they haven't done the bad things that most of us have done. I've done. And I, and I failed him. And the last time I ever did drugs, I woke up in an ambulance and I'm pretty sure I died. And I was like, I will never fucking do that again. My parents do not deserve that. And that was probably 2016.

Wow.

And I was like, I will never touch that again, ever. My parents do not deserve that. And that was, that's why I'm here.

Well, good for you, dude. That's awesome. And it's great that you have such an awesome relationship with your parents. And it really does seem like that attitude that you have is very freeing in a lot of ways.

It is. It really is.

Yeah.

Golf, weed.

Trevor, let's talk about those gloves. What the fuck do we have to do to get your gloves into the UFC? It doesn't make any sense that we're using inferior gloves. I want—

obviously I want to talk about this, but the gloves I fought in this week were different.

They are?

They felt— they weren't different. It was the same, same glove. The leather was different. It was a little bit thicker, I think, and so it was softer. And so every time I've ever fought, I've had the most excruciating pain in between my hands right here, and I didn't feel that at all this fight. Mm-hmm.

So it's like if you have like a thinner material going through, it's gonna cut through the skin a little easier.

So it was— yeah. Tighter material. This was looser because it was thicker. It was weird.

So it was better. Better.

Better for that feeling that all fighters get.

Better for comfortability, yeah. Like, you guys have no idea how uncomfortable we are when we wear gloves.

You're always like pulling on the glove to pull it back. It's like getting a hand wrap too tight and you get those little things between your—

You're constantly pulling on the tongue here.

So you make your fist so that it squeezes harder.

Mm-hmm. But he— this guy's a genius. He can fucking make anything.

Uh, so Hunter reached out to me 3 weeks ago, 4 weeks ago, and said he wanted to ignite the conversation again. So we'll see where that goes. But, you know, from that first position that we were in, a lot of things happened, and a great thing I always told you was gonna be timing. Timing's everything. And they did the right thing and tried to make what we had spoke about. You know, we had an NDA, and we had a 5-year, and they moved it to a 2-year. Took a lot of great notes, and I'm very grateful to be a part of those because they did go out there and use a lot of the ideas that I had. But they just couldn't do it to the level that I could do it. And I thought it was super cool that they were trying, 'cause it's a problem that they don't really see and understand. So, I think they're in the right mindset, and, you know, them helping the athletes, I thought was a great, great thing to do. But during that time when I was gonna talk to— I actually brought the gloves, and it was when you were fighting on 300.

We were out there, and I had a new patent that I had been working on, so we could go opposite direction if they wanna own it. It's a separate patent from the patent that I had that goes in all of our products, the internal strap. Mm-hmm. Strapping. This was a new patent, uh, still with internal strapping, but a more dialed-in for a fight glove. And then we had those two options. And then when we got there, Ollie had told me that, uh, they're releasing a new glove. And, uh, so we have, you know, uh, two versions now, which is super cool. And, uh, yeah, I think it'll go great.

Here's the conversation though, like, what are you trying to fix?

Eye pokes.

Okay.

Eye pokes a bit.

That is not —You don't think it's possible to make less eye pokes?

You can make less, absolutely.

You can make less, but you're never stopping.

You're never gonna stop. Well, of course you're not gonna stop because the fingers are out.

The issue is the athlete. The issue is the comfortability of the athlete and the performance of the athlete. That is where your, um, ambition has to lie when it comes to making the glove better. Because the thing— the gloves we're fighting in now are fucking terrible. You have no— they, uh, it's hard to make a fist. You have to use your entire muscle of your arm to make a fist. And so by the time we get to the fight, this is already, um, your form exhausted, exhausted. And then the pressure in between your fingers is like something you can't replicate.

Let me ask you this: do you think it's possible to make something that's like a mitten, something that covers over the tips of the fingers? You would have fucking 80% less eye pokes.

I do think you could do that in time. I don't think that's— that change is hard for everybody, Joe. Why? That's a huge change for grapplers and things like that. But, but you're a grappler, so you're a grappler. Most people are gonna say, well, that's gonna affect this, or my certain lock, or, uh, until they try it. But again, it's, it's—

you have to test it. It would enhance it. The only— the problem would be like rear naked chokes, like getting the hand behind the head. You have more thick toughness. Like, it's— regular gloves are a problem already, but is it more of a problem just to have the fingers covered with the regular glove? I think it's the same. It might actually— it might actually even slip in better. But the thing is, it's like covering the tips with like a mitten, like those old-school Everlast bag gloves.

I just don't— I think it's a different sport now.

But why? You can still clinch, you can still do everything.

That's what I'm talking about.

You take guys to the ground, everything's the same. You can still grapple.

It's telling me so much right now. Like, and if you take that away from me, yeah.

Right.

Like that is a, that's a huge factor when it comes to intuitive abilities.

Okay, like explain that to me. Like what are you feeling with your fingertips that you think would be missing?

Well, it's not the fingertips. When you, it's my hand. Like he moves away, he moves any direction. Like I can make that read. Now he's farther, now he's there.

Right.

And I think if you're gonna take touch away from us that would deter our intuitive abilities.

Hmm, I wonder. I wonder how much. But I also think— If you start practicing with them.

You have to understand where, as a fighter, for me, it's like when I am relaxed, when I'm relaxed, and if my hand can be in this position when I'm relaxed, then I'm okay. Then there's not gonna be as many eye pokes. But when I relax and it goes like this. Right.

Like, and now I have to— Because the gloves force your hand up.

Now I have to do this. Do this. I'm naturally— you're never going to take the human reaction and instinct away to protect yourself. And the instinct to protect yourself is no, right? That is the instinct, right? It's natural, it's intuitive, and it has to be that because you're trying to get your, your chin tucked behind your shoulders so that you don't get hit. But the uncomfortability and like the strenuous effort it takes to make a This is fucking stupid.

It's stupid, and this is the difference between your gloves and the current UFC gloves.

My gloves are making—

Your gloves curl your hand.

My gloves are one of those things that it's—

Promotes a natural hand position.

Natural position, a better grip, better fist position where I'm not, when I squeeze my fist and I have the wrap on, it doesn't pull my hand up like this. And when you see guys touch gloves, they're usually like this, not like this. Right. And it's lining the bones up for, you know, again, they said that the last gloves were causing less knockouts.

Our gloves were gonna cause more knockouts 'cause of better hand position.

Position, better grip strength on being able to have holds. Like if I'm holding someone's—

Protection for your hands.

Absolutely.

So less broken hands.

And internal strapping. Like that is a huge thing. Like my goal at a certain point would that to have where you can't have hand wraps on. Like if you have a glove that's actually protecting your hand, but you have the gloves on that now it's equal 100% because if you got one person that adds more, uh, more padding or less padding or double layers tape, like there's many different things that you you can do. And that, to me, it's like if one fighter has tape wrapping their hands and then the other one has house wrap in the hands, they're wrapping differently. Which one's better for breaks? Which one's better for punching? Like, so having that, that would be really cool. And that's the difference with like our gloves. I'll show you.

I've never broke my hand when he's ever taped my hands. Like, his tape job is, I can't wait to show it off to the commission every single time time. I'm like, look at that. Mm-hmm. Tell me you've seen a better one than that tonight. And every time you're like, I don't think so.

You got gloves? Of course you did. Of course you did. They're my favorite by far. And the ladies and gentlemen at home, if you're just listening, the difference between Trevor's gloves and everybody else's gloves, one of the big differences is that you can see— you're looking at it on that— let's see how they're curved, folks.

Looks like a hand.

The regular gloves from the UFC are not They're straight just like this. So these gloves promote a natural punching position. Look, without even putting them on, they're already in that position. And then when you put them on, they're damn near perfect. The padding is amazing. They're fantastic to hit the bag with. They're just fucking awesome. And they— and more importantly, look what they promote. My hand is totally dead relaxed, and it promotes a closed fist position.

The cool part, Joe, is this. This is what I was talking about.

So this is a— he's doing the internal strapping right now.

Strap is coming from over here, so that's going to pull this in. As you notice, we got pad on the side, so there's no— like the—

all the other gloves, the padding, right, right, right, coming down on a single knuckle.

But again, this strap is going to really seal you in. Oh yeah. And then this one, so you—

oh, so these are better than the last ones you brought here? Oh, this is fucking fantastic.

I've been dialing in, finding the right product.

Oh my God, you don't even need hand wraps. Well, you had told me before that when you hit the bag with his gloves, his bag gloves, you I haven't wrapped my hands since 2015. Pfeiffer doesn't fight with hand wraps on, which is crazy.

And it can get to the point, if we have the right protection, it's awesome.

This is so superior to the UFC gloves. I mean, the fact that this isn't being used by the UFC right now is fucking crazy.

We're gonna get it done. I hope so.

I've been trying so hard.

I stepped away from like the business part. I'm the visionary now. So I got right people that know how to make deals. It's right, and the UFC's gonna be happy.

We weren't ready.

Yeah, dude, I've been there like, dude, you know, I don't think we're ready.

That was me versus Khabib. I take full responsibility. Oh, I believe it.

That I didn't know that you could do deals all these different ways. You know, when they'd say what they wanted to do, I was like, yeah, that's not how things are done.

Bro, this feels so good. It's so better.

So better.

It's just much better. It's like—

When you put it on, you're like, oh, I wanna hit something.

Well, this is one of the things that I love about you is that you're so honest. So fucking creative with stuff, and you're constantly trying to refine things.

Every single piece of equipment I have trained with for the last—

Dude, these— so we see so many—

So this is your training bag?

Yeah, that's what I train in, yep.

Nice.

I hit pads in that. I've never wore hand wraps once.

Oh, that's fantastic.

Just throw them in there, but watch how you can't open your hand to go straight out. And then the pointer knuckle, protecting that pointer knuckle knuckle is so big.

Yeah, that's it, right? Yeah. Oh, it's so nice.

Yeah, then you open, you can still grip.

Right, you can still grab. But your fingers— Grab things. It'd be hard to choke someone.

And the door-knocking knuckles. This is what hands are made of.

I choke the shit out of people with those.

I bet you do. You gotta go palm to palm, right? But still, it's just—

Those are yours now.

Fantastic. Oh, thank you.

Yeah, and then I got you another pair of X-Factors too, Yeah, you got big hands. So I remember I gave you the 16s, you're like, bro, these ain't gonna work for me.

Yeah, I got big hands for a little dude.

Unusual. Yeah, we'll get it done. But, uh, I mean, anytime you want to.

I'm so happy. I'm so happy you're gonna get it done because I pushed for it so many times. I brought it up to Dana, I brought it up to everybody. I was like, listen, yeah, what the fuck are we doing? You guys spent a million billion dollars trying to make these new gloves, you got rid of them in 3 months.

That's because I This could sound bad. That's because they've never thought about the fighter.

But they did. They tried. They tried to make new gloves.

They tried. They tried. They tried. They didn't fucking try.

Yeah, they did, dude. You know how much money— I'm not gonna tell you how much money they put in. They did, dude.

To do what? To give me the same exact fucking problem?

They thought they were making a bet.

They hired people that people don't know what the fuck they're doing.

They hired a company that works on football helmets.

What did they change in their gloves?

But they don't know. They took the ideas. At least they tried. They did. I will give them 100% credit for that.

They did try, but I remember seeing the gloves when they tried and going, these suck. These are not as good. I'm like, right away.

Still uncomfortable. Still hurt my hands.

I said to him right away, why don't you just get Trevor's gloves? What the fuck are we doing here? No, these are good. These are good. Get the fuck— the best gloves exist. They're already made. Like, there's only a few people out there that are willing to like really get creative and redesign and engineer gloves. And then when someone does it to the extent that you've done it, like, God.

So Joe, when you think about that, that's where I think I fit in well with this, because I want to evolve with the company. And if we change one thing, like, my first thing I want to do is help a performance. I don't want someone to hurt their hand where all of a sudden I hurt my hand on the top of your head and I'm just left-handed now. And everybody just, you know, there's no pay-per-view now, but I pay to watch these things. Fights, and now the guy that I wanted to see fight can't continue because he hurt his hand.

Right.

So we fixed that problem. We fixed longer, better grip strength for the grapplers who are going to need to have wrist control when throwing shots. I want to help athletes perform, and as we go, let's slowly develop and test with the athletes and find out what— because it's about the athlete, it's what works for them. And when we can get gloves on people and try something like you were talking about, that'll take time. You have to train it and go, oh, I actually like this better. And there's the pros and cons, there's pros and cons to everything, right? So it would take time, and that's where I'm passionate about, is let's find a problem and let me think through solving it.

But I need to know what that problem is. Your gear— and we should send everybody to your website. It's— is it Onyx?

Yeah, onxsports.com. Yep, a lot of people spell it with a Y.

Best gloves, the best shin pads.

Thank you.

You have the best equipment. It's fucking phenomenal. There it is right there. That's the website, Onyx Sports. It's fucking fantastic stuff. I mean, it's really obvious that it's a high-level coach who's developed all this shit. I mean, everything you make is top of the food chain.

Got the best tester in the world, baby.

There you go, dog.

By far, dude. I fucking break everything.

I'm sure.

And I cannot break these gloves. I cannot break these gloves. I have to switch every like 6 months because I wear the foam out so much, so I don't ever want to hurt my—

But you got 2 or 3 sessions of training every day. Yeah. For a typical person, these gloves are gonna last well over— Corey had his shin guards for 4 years.

I had my shin guards for like 3 years.

Yeah. And when you think about the amount of damage that that 3 years entails, that's pretty fucking incredible for pieces of leather and foam. So much sweat. Yeah.

So much fucking sweat.

You're soaked with sweat. Everything's getting broken down and moisturized and then drying out again, crap.

Hey, that's the— our bags that were up there, there, dude, we got connectors for the shin guards and the knee pads on the outside. So all your equipment's on the outside of the bag to dry. Oh yeah, so that's, that's really cool too. So just trying to rethink, uh, uh, how things work.

So that's what I love about the way you approach things. You're always like fixing the problem.

I can't stand when we're not even working on kickboxing and someone's kicking and it's because they're fucking gear, you know.

That was the worst thing about fixing my nose, dude. Fucking smelling people.

I was like, oh my God, dude. You know how the gym is, especially with gi, right? Yeah, oh, bro, like, the dudes who don't wash their gi, those guys are—

that's a real problem.

It's a real problem.

And those are the ones who always give you fucking cooties too.

Dude, ugh.

Right?

So nasty.

Yeah, it's nasty. Listen, Justin, I just want— I'm so glad you're not gonna fight till the end of the year. Like, for whenever, just enjoy that, 'cause that was a fucking masterpiece.

Yes, sir.

It was beautiful to be there. I was like, I felt so—

American.

American. I felt so—

It's so hard to represent this country because we're such a melting pot.

Yes.

And I think I have done it. I think I achieved that. And so I'm very, very proud of that.

Dude, you did it in spades. I mean, you did it 5 stars. It was fucking phenomenal. It was one of the greatest events that any sporting event has ever put on. I mean, maybe the greatest sporting event in the history of the world.

I said it before, this is gonna be like some Miracle on Ice shit. Shit. It was, man.

I know, it really was.

I knew, I knew, I knew I had the opportunity to do something special.

You did it, and then here come down.

Yeah, I want to see my family.

That was so cool. So awesome. Look how cool that is. Yeah, so cool. Look how cool that is. That is so amazing. That's so fucking amazing. It was an amazing night, dude. I'm so happy I went. I'm so happy I was there to see it live. Me too.

It was a real honor. I was honestly really nervous, Joe. I was like, dude, there's like, just again, being around everybody and something could happen. The drones that, you know, that they stopped. Like, again, I wasn't knowing what to expect. And then till after the fight, because again, we couldn't take it in. It was a beautiful thing. And Justin—

I was like, fuck it, if I get taken out in the middle of the cage, how fucking legendary would that be?

I said to Trump, I go, I hope we don't die in a terrorist attack. I said to Trump, I hope we don't die in a terrorist attack. He goes, we gotta go somehow.

Everyone will remember it for the rest of eternity.

Oh, I'll pass.

Sign me up. I'll pass. Better the way it went.

The way it went is way better. That's a way better outcome.

Way better. Well, hey brother, thank you for coming here. Congratulations. Masterpiece. Yes. Both of you.

Let's go hunting. I want to go hunting. I just got a— I'm going to shoot an elk.

I saw on GoHunt website you went antelope hunting. Yeah.

Yeah, that's awesome. Did you see?

Almost 1,000-yard shot. Dude, check it out.

Check it out. We fucking missed our ass off. Off. We were in the— it was windy. These things do not stop moving. They could see us forever and they just kept going. And we were on shoot. We couldn't get prone. So we had to, you know, you're, you're every hunt, you're like, I'm going to have a prone position. I'm going to shoot from— we cannot get in a prone position. So we're on shooting sticks trying to manipulate the sticks and take shots.

Yeah. Antelope are tough. You know, that's a prehistoric animal.

So Luke misses from 140 yards.

Dude, the story was so much better for Luke without that.

1,093 yards.

Crazy.

Hits it in the head, drops it. And we're just like, what the fuck, Luke? How? How do you hit that shot and miss 100? This is, uh, yeah, look at this.

Wow. That's crazy.

1,092.

Was he shooting for the head?

No, I don't even know if he hit it. I mean, it looks like he shot it in the neck.

Yeah, like it looks like he got her in the neck. Neck. It was, well, 1,000 yards. Who knows how much wind drift.

You're just trying to hit the center of the fucking target.

Well, in these crazy prairies too, the kind of wind drift you're dealing with.

Dude, and they don't— they can see for miles. These things do not stop moving.

No, they evolved to get away from cheetahs. There used to be North American cheetahs. And so North America— this is all before the Younger Dryas impact. So it was like when somewhere around 11,800 years ago, 65% of all North American mammals went extinct, and there was an American lion that was bigger than the African lion, and then there was a cheetah. And these fuckers, these guys evolved to get away from cheetahs, so they can run like 55 miles an hour.

Forever. Evolution is crazy though.

Evolution is wild. When you look at them, they look prehistoric. Their eyeballs are like way out here.

It's crazy how good a decoy works with them though.

Oh, horses too. Guys walk right up on them on horses.

Yeah, get a moocow. Moo cow, I'll think, just walk right behind them.

Walk right behind them, and then you can, that's how archery hunters do it a lot.

'Cause you have to get a lot, yeah.

Very tough to sneak up on them.

So smart.

Do you bow hunt? Do you ever bow hunt?

No.

No, would you want to learn?

You would love it. It's not that I haven't shot an elk, but I have a bow.

Just hasn't hunted.

I shot an elk and did not recover it, and I told myself that I will never go archery hunting unless I have the time and effort effort to be 100% ready. Yes, right. And so right now it's just rifle.

Well, rifle is always going to be the most effective way. It's still an awesome way.

Cuz whitetail in Arizona is my favorite hunt.

Oh really?

You should go on that with me one of these days.

That's a fun hunt. Those are tiny little guys, little gray goats.

I grew up there, so my, my buddies their whole life have looked— we could go out there, we wouldn't find shit, right? They're fucking everywhere.

Oh, they're hard to spot. Find them.

Yeah, they call them the gray ghost, and my buddies can find them, and it's such a fun hunt.

Yeah, it's a great hunt. Well, Arizona is a great hunting state too. You have some of the best elk in the country. Yep. Yeah, gentlemen, again, congratulations. Absolute masterpiece Sunday night. One for history. One of the— maybe the greatest event in the history of the sport. I mean, Joe Rogan again, baby.

Anytime. Let's do it one more time.

Let's do it one more time. When you do decide to wrap it up. Thank you guys. Thank you. And onyxsports.com, get the best clubs in the world.

My brother.

Thank you. Thank you.

All right, bye.