Transcript of #2515 - Chase Hughes New

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00:00:12

Hey Joe, good to see you.

Good to see you, man.

What's happening? How are you?

Good. Been really good. Just got into Austin last night.

I watched these videos of you describing this intravenous DMT experience. And the first thing I said is, I need to talk to this guy about that. Like, that seems like one of the most insane descriptions of anything that anybody's ever experienced.

Yeah.

That I've ever seen online.

Yeah.

So tell me about this experience.

So it's DMT, and this guy makes it, and they put it into a pump, and it's like an anesthesia pump that you'd have in, like, an operating room. Essentially, they can adjust your milliliters per hour dose like they would use for anesthesia. They launch you off. You're laying— the space is beautiful. They hold the space really well.

What do you mean by that? They hold the space really well?

It's a beautiful space. It's this amazing place where you lay down in the middle of the room. It's on a really soft pillow thing and great music on. And like, it's very calm. And these people are just unbelievably calm and good human beings to take you through the experience. And the cool thing about this pump is that you can adjust your altitude. So like, you could be in the middle of this and say, "I need to go up more. I want to come down." If you need to take a pee break, They'll like pull you down, you kind of go onto the runway, and then you go pee and you come back and you launch right back up as high as you want to go, as fast as you want to go. So it's 5.5 hours. And we did— I did one pee break, but it is— it's DMT, like the highest you can feel on DMT, like the most you can see on DMT, but it's 5.5 hours of that. Wow. And the next time I go back, we're gonna mix Alzheimer's drugs with this.

Why?

To see how much I can bring back, to see if it improves, like, the retrieval. 'Cause you know, like, when you're in the DMT space, you're like, "I have access to all this stuff. Like, oh my God, I wish I could bring this back.

I wanna bring this back so bad." It seems like we're protected from bringing it back.

It does. It does.

Like a dream.

Yeah.

It's— there's real similar comparisons to the dream state.

Yeah.

The dream state is very strange. So I've had, like, profound dreams and— or really bizarre dreams. And when I wake up, they're so crystal clear. And with— I go to take a pee, I have a cup of coffee.

Yeah.

I can't remember them anymore.

Yeah.

I barely, barely can grip them. They just slide through your fingers.

It's like we— —there is a protective layer there.

It seems like it has to be, because if there was anything that you experienced in the regular conscious state that was that profound, you would remember it forever.

Yeah.

Just think of a great thing— just UFC fight this weekend. I remember everything. Oh my God, it's so, like, drilled into my brain. And that is, like, nothing compared to a DMT experience.

Yeah. And it just seems like I've never met someone who's done DMT that would— just call, oh yeah, it's a psychedelic, it's a hallucination. I've never met anybody that's actually done it and then will just go back and say, I hallucinated something.

There's a few people that say that. I've actually, I've read this one piece by this guy, I forget his discipline, I forget what, but serious academic, and his position after, I think he did like 100 DMT trips, and his position was that this is all being concocted by your visual cortex in your brain and your imagination. That was his position, but—

I mean, why wouldn't you go to Walmart on a DMT trip then?

Or Target? I don't think that's what— I just think, you know, because it's very disorienting and, you know, you really should sit still. But I think that there's contrarians out there.

No, I mean like in the DMT space, why don't you just see a Target or a 7-Eleven or something?

Oh, right, right, right. I see what you're saying. Something that your imagination could concoct, like a dream. Like in a dream, you might be at Target.

Yeah, and you had on Andrew Gallimore. Yes, I did. Yes. World-making part of our brain.

Yes.

Man, that really hooked me in. And during the 6-hour journey, experience, whatever you want to call it, at the end of— I mean, it's DMT. Like, it's just reality's gone. Like, everything— oh yeah, you see all the stuff that you think is real? Goodbye. It's like everything's gone. And at the end of this, I— On camera, I asked if I was dead 39 times. I wasn't concerned what the answer was. I just was like, "Am I dead?" And coming toward the end of this experience, I was bawling. I was crying. And it just felt like I had to wrap myself in some kind of ego in order to just return back here. Mm-hmm.— to come back, there's no way for me to come back and not have some little ego thing in it. It made me so sad coming back that I just didn't want to come back at all.

You know what I'm talking about? It's like Avatar depression times a million. Yeah, it really is. For people who don't know what I'm talking about, when the movie Avatar came out, it was so wonderful, the experience, and these people seemed like to live such a righteous, peaceful existence in the forest that people came back and they were depressed that they don't live in the Avatar world.

Yeah.

It was like a psychological condition that was— it was happening with so many different therapists that people started calling it Avatar depression.

That's brilliant. It's got a name. Like in the '90s, there was a Truman Show syndrome.

Right, right, right, right.

We got into that.

But I mean, how badass is your fucking movie? That it creates a psychological condition in people that wish that reality was like your movie.

Yeah, I love that. It did feel like that times 10,000.

Times a million or whatever it is, yeah.

And one of the things that I didn't know happened was my wife was with me, Michelle, and the night before when we were at their house, they just said, "You can pick a violin." I said, "Let Michelle pick a violin." And I was in the other room and Michelle was with this guy who makes the DMT. And he said, "Would you like to pray over this DMT?" And Michelle did that. And I didn't even know she prayed over it. And the next day, and I'm not saying there's anything here, but when it started, the first thing that happened was like these alien beings or whatever kind of pinned me down on this table and ripped me open, like from pelvis all the way up to my neck, like all the way open. And I could hear my organs kind of moving around inside my body and they're doing something in me. And the second thing was they pushed my head back up on the table and this big drill bit went up inside of my nose, like all the way to the back of my head. It didn't hurt, there was no pain or anything.

And they were doing that for probably 45 minutes. [LAUGHTER] A long time. And it was freezing cold. And then after this journey, I told Michelle about this and she's like, "That's what I asked them to do. I asked them to fix your heart and your brain." 'Cause I have a heart thing going on and I have a, of brain disease, which is why I was doing this in the first place. And that was the first thing that happened on the journey. I'm not saying there's causation.

Did you get looked at afterwards to see if they did anything?

I haven't, 'cause they have to do a PET scan and it's so much radiation.

Oh.

It's like, it's so much radiation I can't even hug or sleep with my wife or our 2-year-old. For like 48 hours. It's a ton of radiation.

But fuck that. What is the condition that you have?

In the brain, I have mesial temporal sclerosis.

Yeah, we talked about this the last time you were here.

Yeah, and I had a seizure like the night before our last episode.

This is the thing that you said that methylene blue was really helping you with.

You know how many people have ripped that out of our show and like made commercials for their company and stuff out of it?

Oh, I'm used to that. There's so many ads for me selling everything.

Yeah.

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And if I don't take methylene blue for a couple days, I'll go back into seizure territory pretty quickly.

Really?

Yeah. But I will say, just to go back to this dream thing that you were talking about, the way that I get people to help understand this, like if you're in a, I'll walk you through this. Really quick, let's say you're in a dream right now and I'm just here in your dream. We're chilling out, hanging out. And let's say you don't know it's a dream yet. And I look over and I say like, "What is that UFO spaceship over there? How far is that from your face right now?" And you look over at that flying saucer thing, you'd be like, "Oh, it's 8 feet or something like that." But then if you know it's a dream and I ask you, "How far is it?" You're still gonna say, 8 feet. And then I ask, "What is it made out of?" You're going to say, "Oh, it's aluminum," or, you know, whatever that thing's made out of. But there's no aluminum in your brain, right? So, like, and then I ask again, like, "What is it made out of?" And you eventually will— you'll get to a place where you say, "It's made out of me.

It's made out of consciousness." And then I say, "What is the distance made out of?" That entire 8 feet of distance is also made out of your consciousness. And then I say, "Well, why did you have to manufacture eyeballs in your dream to see out of?" And then what are the photons? Like, you're seeing colors and all this stuff in your dream. There's no photons bouncing off of stuff in your dream. The entire body is fabricated. Your eyes are fabricated. Like, you're seeing all this stuff without your eyeballs at all, but you made up eyeballs to see it all through. And then the distance, like, from you to that flying saucer, you say it's 8 feet. The distance is zero. Like, there's not 8 feet inside of your brain. So kind of walk people in to show that everything that you would do, like, not in a dream, like sitting here in the studio to prove that this pitcher of water is real, you could do identical, you could do everything in a dream that you would do in waking reality to prove that something is real. And then you realize that the distance between you and that thing is A, made up of consciousness, and B, doesn't exist.

Whoa.

Does that make sense?

It does make sense. It does make sense because we assume that because we have tools to measure distance and sound and touch and all those different senses that we possess, that this is what the world's made out of.

Yeah. And it makes sense. So like, and there's dream logic, right? So like, if you're all of a sudden, riding on your rhinoceros to the pizza factory, and you're like, "Oh yeah, it's normal." Right. So if you look at like a galaxy, it matches the shape of DNA. If you look at the toroidal shape of like gravitational stuff, it matches the shape of a red blood cell. You look at an eyeball close up, it looks like a nebula. And if we just look at as above, so below, like any of that is even remotely true, then dreams might tell us more than we think about what's going on here in this, what we call reality.

Have you ever seen the comparison between the universe itself and human neural tissue?

No.

It's bananas.

Is it like a— It's identical. An image?

Yeah, it's like an image of the known universe with an image of— is it a brain cell or a human neural cell? I forget which one it was, but when you look at the two of them together, you're like, okay, is this whole thing a giant fractal inside of a fractal inside of a fractal? If that's what infinity is, you know, infinity, we'd like to think that like this is what it looks like. That's a brain cell and that's the universe.

Good Lord. What the fuck? I mean— Oh my gosh.

It's the same thing. So it's, if at least it looks like the same thing, right? Um, you know, when we think of infinity, we think of what we are here on Earth, that there is no distance that you could travel where you find the end, that the infinite universe just keeps going on. But it's way crazier than that. It might be that the entire infinite universe that doesn't have an end is actually a part of a cell that's in another being— that's in an infinite universe that has no end, that's actually just a part of a cell.

Yeah.

That's in a part of an infinite— and it goes on and on and on.

Yeah.

And we have some evidence that that might be the case just in the weirdness of these supermassive black holes that are in the center of every galaxy. So, these supermassive black— we had Michelle Thaller on the podcast the other day, fascinating woman. She's, um, an astrophysicist and just discussing all the strangeness of the universe. The more that we experience it, the more, the deeper they look, the crazier it is. It's like the further the James Webb Telescope goes out, the more shit that they find. They're like, what is going, what is that? How is that there? This is not supposed to be there. They think that there's a real possibility that inside every black hole is a completely new universe.

Yeah.

That it's some sort of a passageway. So if there's hundreds of billions of galaxies just in the known universe, and every one of those galaxies has a supermassive black hole inside of it, in the center of it, you go through that and you are in hundreds of billions of new galaxies, all with black holes, and then you go into those fucking universes and you find creatures with brains and you get to their brain and their brain looks like a universe, and if you get closer and closer and closer, you might see hundreds of billions of galaxies, each with black holes inside their fucking brain cells. Yes.

That was well said.

It's—

That needs to be a short.

But it's infinite.

Yes.

So there's no end to that process. It's not like there's us and then we are a part of a brain cell of a creature. No, we're a part of a brain cell that's a part of a creature that's a part of a universe that's a part of a brain cell that's a creature that's a part of a universe. And that's what real infinity is. There is no end.

Yeah, I agree with that. And we need less certainty about this shit.

Yeah, why so many people are like, "Oh, I have this figured out." What you said about coming back from the DMT trip, about how your ego tries to kind of reclaim reality for you, I think that is a genuine problem with human beings today in which they cling to ideologies, to political parties, to ethics, morals, religion, whatever it is that they— they connect themselves to inseparably. I think part of that is just being afraid of the vastness of what this experience really is. And the way to shield yourself from it is to pretend to be sure.

That's it. Yeah, it just gives me a little blanket of, "I've got this figured out.

I know what's happening." Yeah, you know, you know, security blanket. Yeah.

Oh. And it's— we need less certainty in the world.

Yeah.

We need more people to say, "As far as we know," before they say some shit that sounds sciencey. As far as we know. Why can't we just put that phrase in front of more things? If you're doing DMT, it just— or if anyone does DMT, maybe it's a hallucination. But Terence McKenna described it so well when he said death by astonishment. And there's no words. At the moment you try to label anything that you see in the DMT space, it's like you're destroying— it's an act of destruction almost.

There's no words for it. They don't exist. 'Cause words are sounds that we make with our face to describe known reality. And there's no words for that experience.

Yeah, and we invented language for trading chickens and spices and stuff. That's what language is for.

Yeah.

And if you just look at one little sciency thing that's weird, like quantum entanglement, and then somebody says, "We can't explain how this is faster than light or anything." Well, we can explain it if we go to a dream and then say the distance doesn't exist. Distance isn't real.

Right.

So, I think that's— I wanna know about the UFC fight at the White House.

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Was the temperature made— make everything different?

It was perfect. No, the temperature was perfect. I was very concerned about that. I was really concerned that these guys are gonna have to fight in the heat, but that was not an issue at all. It seemed like it was in the 70s, and it was— the storm, like, miraculously just passed us. Like, there was all these weather warnings at one point in time. The fight was supposed to start at 8:00 PM, and at one point in time, one of the weather experts wanted us to start at 10:30. Yeah, 'cause they were—

At night?

10:30 at night, which would've been a disaster. 10:30 at night would've been a disaster, 'cause it's a 6-hour show.

Yeah.

You know, or close to it, whatever it is. I guess 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 1. I guess it was 5 hours. But somehow or another, the storm just like almost like went around the White House. I mean, I don't know.

Mysteriously.

I don't know what that is. I don't know if that's science or if that's consciousness. I don't know what steered the storm or if it's just random luck. It could have been all of the above. But all my fears of the weather getting in the way of the fights were gone. They were null. It didn't mean anything. And then there was this long sort of ceremonial thing where they had jets fly over and, you know, they played music and all this different stuff. So by the time we got to the actual fights, dark out, perfect. The weather was perfect, so that wasn't an issue at all. And it was just the magnitude of the event. I know people saw it on television and it looked insane.

Yeah.

But the magnitude of the event being there live So there's the event that's taking place on the lawn of the White House, and that has 4,000-plus people.

The main event.

Yes.

Yeah.

So the actual UFC. So there's a bunch of military guys that are standing up in the back. There's like 1,000 of those, and there's 3,000-plus that are seated. All these people are seated. But then behind that, not that far, like 100 yards, 200 yards, whatever it is— I guess it's more than that, maybe— 300 yards. There's the Ellipse. The Ellipse has 85,000 people.

This is on the ground?

Who got in for free. Yeah, it's like in the whole White House ecosphere, whatever it is.

Wow.

Yeah, so this area, they have giant screens set up, and they have, you know, huge speakers and sound, and so 85,000 fans are watching the fights live on the screens, and they can see the lights of the fucking— this claw dome in the distance, and they could see the White House in the distance where the fights are taking place, but they're watching it on massive screens with commentary. And it was insane. You could hear them roar. So you hear the crowd from here, and then you hear 85,000 people, and it's fucking—

Rah!

Rah! You could hear it in the distance. It was insane. It was insane. Just the magnitude of it was insane.

Unlike anything else you've ever done.

Beyond. I mean— I'm a hyperbolic individual, and I'm always like, "This is the greatest, this is awesome," but that was the wildest experience that I've ever had in my 20-whatever years of calling combat sports. There's nothing even close. Nothing even close. It was the greatest night of fights of all time. And it was the only night in the history of the sport where every single fight ended by knockout.

Wow. Did they all?

Every single one. 7 fights. 7 fights. Every one of them ended by knockout.

Wow.

Which never happens.

Which is unprecedented.

Unprecedented.

Wow.

It was like the perfect experience for anybody that had never watched the UFC before to see it that way at the White House like that. I mean, it was nuts. A huge experience for the fans that got to be there in the Ellipse. And I mean, I saw videos of these guys. They were having so much fun. —It's like everyone's in there for free. You don't have to pay for the tickets. There's 85,000 people out there. They're all screaming and cheering, and the drinks are flowing, and it was wild. I mean, just absolutely wild.

What a 250th.

Yeah.

Wow. And it's a sport that was, like, banned just, what, 15, 20 years ago or something?

20-plus years ago. So, when the UFC— So, when I first started working for the UFC was in 1997. And back then, you had to watch it on DirecTV. I had DirecTV just because that was the only way to watch the UFC. That's why I didn't have cable. And then, um, Zuffa purchased it, so the Fertitta brothers and Dana White, they started running it in 2001, and that's when I came aboard again. So I had quit in '98. I worked from '97 to '98, and then I quit, and then they brought me back in 2001.

Mm-hmm.

And when that was going on, it was banned from cable, and they slowly started working it back. They got it on Fox SportsNet, which was the first time I ever commentated for the UFC. That was UFC 37.5, a very special show that they put on for Fox SportsNet, tried to introduce people to the sport. And so that was the first time it was on, like, cable again. And then they started getting pay-per-view buys, and it started growing and gathering steam. Even back then, like, it was like you were doing porn or something, or snuff films, or you were doing something that was damaging for your career. You know, and people would, like, look at you like, "Why are you working for a cage-fighting organization? Why would you do that?" Cut to 25 years later.

On the White House.

It's on the lawn of the White House, and it is one of the most watched sporting events in the history of the world.

Yeah.

I don't know what the total overall views are as of now, But I know that it was, like, well over— I think it was 150 million just by Monday.

Unbelievable.

Just by Monday. So that's, like, the night of, and then people that watched the replay that weren't there when the fight took place 'cause they heard about it. But now, between now and— between then and now, now we're dealing with Tuesday. Like, it's probably another 50 or 60 million people have watched it.

Yeah.

It's nuts.

I bought Paramount+ just to— just to watch it on YouTube.

I'm sure.

I don't know, $13 or something that it was. But man, what a hell of an event.

Yeah, it was an amazing event.

I wish I would have stayed up longer, but I watched the first few fights. It was fantastic.

The main event was the greatest fight of all time. It literally was the greatest fight of all time because the guy that won it, Justin Gaethje, was in many books a 6-to-1 favorite— a 6-to-1 underdog, rather. Which is crazy odds for a guy that was an interim lightweight champion, fought the best of the best, one of the best to ever do it, BMF champion. I mean, just super durable, real dangerous guy. And that's how good Ilia Topuria is. That's how good Ilia Topuria is.

Wow.

Ilia Topuria, in many people's eyes, is the most skilled of the new generation, and the new generation is the most skilled of all time. And Ilia was like the top of the mountain. And most people thought that he was going to be too much, and he was too much for a while, and he almost took Justin out in the second round. And then Justin rallied, and then Ilia— it looked like he got really damaged in either the first or the second round, and he was having real trouble seeing out of one of his eyes. And then Justin started landing bombs in the third round. Ilia had slowed down quite a bit. It looked like he had really tried to finish Justin in the second. And sometimes when you try to finish a guy, you just hit the gas way too much, and you can't recover. Yeah. In between rounds. And Justin recovered, and Justin started battering Ilia in the 3rd and 4th. And by the end of the 4th round, Ilia quit on his stool.

Wow.

He couldn't see out of either eye. Uh, he had gotten kneed into the bo— to the body real bad when he was on the ground. Like, you— Justin, like, literally, Justin had him down with his 2 hands and just smashed a knee into his rib cage. And you could see him go like that, and that was the end of the round. And then he had to retire on his stool. I mean, like—

You think he broke a rib?

That probably could've happened, but I think maybe more significantly was the eye damage. Both of his eyes were swollen shut. His nose was fucked up. He had taken so many punches to the face, and it looked like perhaps orbital damage, like maybe he had a fractured orbital.

Wow.

'Cause his whole thing had just swollen up on both sides. He was unrecognizable. And, you know, the guy hung in there as long as he could, but when you can't see, you can't see. And when you're that battered, sometimes it's smart to stop. And he's a very smart guy, and I think he realized, like, there's— I can't defend myself right now. I can't see. This guy's smashing me. Let's call it a day.

Yeah.

This is what it is. Let's preserve my body and my brain and rebuild and come back another day. But for Justin, it was, like, one of the most epic things I've ever seen in my life. For him to win like that when everybody had counted him out. He was saying he was gonna win be his last fight. It was like a retirement fight. 37 years old, been in the game forever, you know, fought who's a who's who of all-time greats in the sport, and this is gonna be his last fight. And he's like, what if I can win the title at the White House? What an ending to a career. And that's what everybody was saying, like, yeah, but you're not gonna because you're fighting Ilia Topuria. He was like, all right, we'll see.

Wow.

And he pulled it off. He pulled it. It was insane. It was epic. Absolutely epic.

What do you think the mindset is between somebody who, you know, you walk in as an underdog and wind up winning, even though your skills may not be more proficient than the other guy? What do you think the mental difference is between somebody who loses or wins?

Well, there's a lot of factors. One of the factors is that Justin has always been incredibly durable. I mean, it might just be a genetic thing. He even joked around about it, like, "Science needs to take a look at this hard-ass skin I have." he barely gets cut at all. And he's like, "I got these hard-ass bones and hard-ass skin." He was joking around, like, "Science needs to study this." And it's true, though. I mean, he really is insanely durable. He's been rocked and hurt before, and he's been stopped in fights before. He was knocked out in the last second of the last round by— excuse me, Max Holloway in the BMF title, which was an insane fight. But the guy is just— he has zero quit in him. It doesn't exist. Like, if you're looking for quit, you go into a room, it's empty. The quit room has no one in it. There's nothing in there.

Yeah.

He's not gonna quit. He can lose 'cause he's a human, but he's not going to quit. And he's also been into the deep trenches before. The deep trenches of these 5-round, chaotic, insane battles. And oddly, he thrives in those kind of battles. He's a guy— He's described as the most violent man in the most violent sport. That's— we've all talked about him like that for years, since the moment he burst onto the scene when he fought Michael Johnson, in the UFC at least. He just— he's an extraordinary dude, just a very extraordinary dude, and not the most technically skilled. Like, Ilia looked technically better than him, but it didn't matter. Justin found a way to land shots, found a way to, like, persevere from the early, early rounds where he was in real trouble. And just shocked the world. It was amazing. One of the coolest things I've ever seen in my life.

That's cool.

It was fucking amazing.

Wish I was there.

Oh my God. I talked a bunch of people into going that didn't want to. Like Shane Gillis was thinking about not going. I'm like, bro, you gotta go. It's gonna be epic. It's gonna be a once-ever thing. Not a once-in-a-lifetime, once in anybody's lifetime. It's never happened before. It's probably never gonna happen again.

Probably not.

No.

Yeah.

That's something you have to see and experience.

Yeah.

And so many people are trying to make it a partisan thing. Like they're mad at people for being there, like, oh, you support Trump. Like, it's a fucking fight at the White House. Doesn't mean you endorse foreign policy. Like, shut the fuck up. It's too much. Just please stop. And again, it's this thing, the ego thing, where people are just, they just want so badly, and on both sides, for sure. You know, the right celebrates this as a win for masculinity and patriotism and all these different things. Like, okay, settle down. Everybody settle down.

Yeah.

We should all be together. And I mean, one of the things that I wanted to do when we went to the White House to try to push through psychedelics for therapy for veterans and people, you know, first responders, people struggling with PTSD, is you need to take these steps to give people a path to change their mind. I think that's the title of Michael Pollan's book, and it's a great way to describe it. Change your mind.

Yeah.

Like, change your whole perspective. And there's no better way to change your whole perspective than a complete dissolving of your ego momentarily.

Yeah.

Just at least for a while, just lock it all away, push it out, and then you get a chance to see what it actually is doing and the effect that it has—

Yeah.

—when you let it back into your life.

Yeah, how much of these clothes do you want to put back on? Right, right.

I described it as like Ctrl+Alt+Delete. For your brain. And then when your brain reboots, it has one folder, and that folder is just labeled "my old bullshit." Yeah. And you have a decision to make. Do you go back into my old bullshit? And most people do at least a little. I do a little.

Yeah.

But for sure, you recognize that it's your old bullshit instead of thinking you are who you thought you are.

Yeah. And it's a lot of stuff that wasn't— didn't really belong to you. —like, it's like we act like decorator crabs all throughout our lives. We're just kind of grabbing these little things.

Yeah.

And you realize that. And I think that the— we were just talking about this politics thing. I think separation is the number one greatest deception of all time. The biggest problem that we have and the biggest deception that we have. It's like we are separate. And the one thing that you see, and you do it some of the—and I mean this therapeutically. I don't mean like you're taking mushrooms and going to the going to a concert. When you do this, like, therapeutic psychedelics, the first big realization you have is like, "Oh, shit. This is all me." Like, we're all kind of connected. We might be one thing, but there's something here that's connecting all of us.

Yeah. Whatever that is, whether you want to call it consciousness or our souls are connected or something.

Yeah.

There's something where we're connected. That we're kind of denying for some strange reason.

And I think that that's one of the reasons— I think you maybe would agree that we're in a loneliness pandemic right now. We have more rampant loneliness around the world than we've ever had before. And if you look at how this has evolved— shit, I didn't know it was coffee.

Get in there, dog.

Thanks, man. Gotcha. So if you look—

Cheers, sir.

Thank you, man. If you look at this loneliness and people are— you could stand in a room full of people and still feel lonely. For so many people, the majority of the world right now is in this loneliness pandemic. So what's really going on, and this is my opinion, feel free to toss it. But we're in a place that's becoming more and more performative on a daily basis, just fake, artificial, let me say what people want to hear, let me act how people want to— how I want to be perceived.

Sure.

And which means that if I'm even— if I'm a little bit performative, no matter who it is, my best friends, they can put their hand on my back and say, "Chase, you're a great guy, you're a good person," but in the back of my mind I know that I'm performing. I know for a fact that probably not even my spouse has ever seen me.

Right.

They can't like me. They can't love me because that's not me.

Right.

And I think this hyper-performance world of— I don't mean performance. I mean, like, let me act out this thing. I'm going to act a certain way. And because let's look at— if you look at our ancestors, I had to worry about— like, you and I, We're maybe 8, 9 years apart, but when we were in elementary school or middle school, we did some stupid shit. We had to worry about 20 people making fun of us. And now we gotta worry about 20 million. And that is an existential difference between those things.

Mm-hmm.

So we get better at hiding shame and pretending like we don't have it. And then, now going back to separation, Now, this is what I call the disease of specialness, of I am special, which means I'm the only one here pretending and everybody else has got their shit figured out. And then that isolates you even further. And not realizing that everyone has this. Everyone has this little crap going on. And like, the fear that people feel of like, if I just be real, then I'm gonna get made fun of, I'm gonna get rejected, I'm gonna be kicked out of the tribe. It's not real.

It's not real, but it can be real depending upon your circumstances. So if you are in a very enclosed ideological tribe and there's no tolerance for any deviation from whatever the narrative is.

Yeah.

You know, this is a real problem with social media. This is a real problem that, It wasn't like that. I mean, I know I'm like one of those old people that's like, "Back in my day," but when I was young, you were allowed to have different opinions. Like, it was normal. I had friends that were conservative, and I would make fun of them, and they would make fun of me, and it was normal. Like, you kept those friends.

Yeah.

Because no one was telling you to get rid of those friends. There was no pressure to be a part of a group. There was no "silence is violence" bullshit. There was a bunch of people that thought differently and you talked about stuff and we weren't as informed. That's a fact. We didn't know as much about how the world works. That's a fact. But now that we do, one of the things that we should all be acutely aware of with us spending so much time interacting with each other online is that a lot of the people that you're interacting with are not real and not a small number. If you are on X, It, you know, look, there was an FBI analyst that he— before Elon Musk—

What do you mean not real?

They're bots.

Like actual not human?

AI bots.

Okay.

AI bots is a big percentage. And then there's actual humans who work for organizations that push narratives. You can hire an organization to push a certain narrative. You can hire them to support you or you can hire them to attack your enemies. You can hire companies that will artificially create a movement of people that agree that this person's a bad person, that this project's a bad project, that this is a good idea, that he's a good person, that he's a good—

Right.

This is a good politician, whatever it is. You could— so it's— you're not dealing with genuine thought. You're dealing with bullshit. And here's where it gets really weird. I think it's natural, and I think everything is nature. And I think this idea that this artificial communication that we've developed through social media is what's really fucking everybody up, I don't think that's the case. I think this is a natural progression of nature. The idea that our stupid fucking creativity and intuition and technological ingenuity, it can bypass nature, I think is horseshit.

It is nature.

It is nature.

Yeah.

And I think nature is creating this convergence. It's creating this very bizarre convergence of humans and artificial intelligence through a bunch of ways that are unproductive and a bunch of ways that are productive, but all of it, like, gathering together in a device that's, like, almost impossible to resist. If there was anything else that you use 6 hours a day or 8 hours— if you're a good person, if you're good with it. Like, a lot of kids are on 7, 8, 9 hours a day.

Yeah.

Like, is there anything else like that? You would think that person's got a horrible addiction. But for us, we've accepted it as a normal part of society. And that— whatever that interaction with it that we have, that deep connection we have, is only gonna get deeper. And it's ultimately going to lead to some sort of hive mind. And it'll probably not be a hive human mind only. I think it will be a human-AI hive mind.

Yeah.

And I think one of the things that's happening to us is there's this weird, like, movement to— this is a weird movement to discredit traditional femininity and traditional masculinity. And there's this bizarre over-celebration of outliers, of weird gender people, of people that are confused with their gender. And I think that's because if you play that out, this is a new thing. Again, I'm an old man, but when I was a young guy, that would— did not— there was cross-dressers, there was guys that got off on wearing women's clothes. There was—

Yeah.

There was, there was always stuff like that. There's always been people with gender dysphoria. But there was never like this. And this is also coming at a time where microplastics are disrupting our endocrine systems.

Big time.

Big time. So testosterone levels are dropping. We're like, oh my God, it's a crisis. What do we do about it? It's natural. Our use of plastic is probably natural. It's probably all somehow or another connected to take us out of our territorial primate bodies. And move us into some new stage of existence.

Like some post-biological—

Exactly.

Yeah.

Exactly. I think it's inevitable, and I'm not fighting it.

Does Elon agree with that? Like we're moving toward that direction?

Well, he most certainly thinks that we are moving into a direction where we converge, and I mean, he said about— this is what— I mean, the dude's literally cutting holes in people's heads and shoving fucking circuits in there. And doing a lot of wild shit with it. I mean, people are using their eyes like aimbots, and a paralyzed gentleman that we have had on the podcast was the first Neuralink patient.

I watched that, yeah.

He said it's like a cheat code, like, because where he looks, that's where the cursor goes, and he just shoots people, pow pow. You know, like he's shooting people with his mind.

Like Fortnite?

Yeah.

On a video game or something?

Playing video games with his mind, and he's like excellent at it. Well, you've got to think, well, eventually you'll be able to move your body that way. And then eventually you'll have all sorts of other tools that didn't exist before. And one of the things that Elon has famously said is you're going to be able to talk without words. That's the hive mind. We're moving towards that. And this gets us into all this weird UAP shit. Like, what are these aliens? What are these experiences that people are having? Like, what is this all? A mass hallucination? Is it us from the future? Yeah. Is it us from the past? Is it another species that's far more advanced than us that's come down here to monitor us and shepherd us through our very difficult time? Whatever it is, they seem to be what we're going to be if we keep going in this direction. Our brains are far larger than monkeys.

Yeah.

Our bodies are far weaker, pound for pound, than any of the other primates. So what do they look like? They look like these fucking spindly things with no muscles and giant heads. And they communicate telepathically, universally. Like everyone from all over the world, every planet, or every country rather, that's experienced these creatures, they all say the same thing. They all say they communicate with them telepathically, which, that's where we're going.

Which is exactly what you experience on DMT.

Right.

And like you can get a test drive of what that's like.

Do you know that the original, when the original scientists or I guess were they anthropologists or what kind of people were studying ayahuasca when they first went down to the Amazon, they wanted to call harmine telepathine. They didn't know that it had already— because of the rules of scientific nomenclature, it would— it had already been named. So they didn't know. So this substance that these people had created, one of the aspects of it, they wanted to talk they wanted to talk to it as telepathine, that they want to refer to it that way. So that was what they were going to call it scientifically.

Wow.

Because they had experienced these telepathic moments while on it. But because it had already been named, they weren't allowed to rename it, so they just stuck with harmine. But harmine had a real chance of being called telepathine.

That's beautiful.

Wild.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it just seems like consciousness is coming to the forefront of every debate right now.

Yeah.

The telepathy tapes shot out of a cannon.

Like, nobody's ever heard of that stuff.

And I think you had the director or something on the show.

Yes.

And it just seems like the level of certainty that some people have about consciousness is adorable.

Yeah.

Adorable to me. It's like we're these little hairless monkeys and we're like— every generation is like, "Oh, yeah, we didn't know 100 years ago, but now we know. We know now." Right. It's just ridiculous.

Yeah, but that's the ego, right?

That's the certainty. We need that certainty. And I think we're at a place where curiosity, maybe except for politics, curiosity isn't really dangerous anymore. It's like people are scared to be publicly curious or to public question something, like why is this here? Why is that there? Do you know who Ignaz Semmelweis was?

No.

He was a doctor back in the day. No idea what year it was, but it was very, very early days. He was the guy who said, "Hey, maybe in between these operating room patients, what if we wash this blood off of our hands before I go do this next operation?" And he got laughed out of the room and then eventually thrown into an insane asylum where he died. For questioning this thing. And it seems like so much of what's going on with, like, psychedelics research, even though, like, document after document is showing it's the most effective thing for PTSD and anxiety and depression and addiction and all this other stuff. And I'm not a champion researcher in any of this stuff, but it seems like kind of coming out, people are getting the same treatment as this guy did when they're coming out, even though, like, it's been documented so well. Mm-hmm. —and it's still a Schedule I drug.

Well, I think now that's changing, and I think there's an—I think one of the things that's changing it is the acceptance of it by the right. And one of—some of them, at least. The old boomers, they don't want to let go. But the young guys, like especially Special Forces guys, SEALs, Rangers, those kind of guys, they come back, so many of their buddies have had experiences and then recognize when one of their friends is struggling and take them to have these experiences, and that word's getting out. Sean Ryan's responsible for a lot of that, 'cause he's talked really openly about it, and obviously he has a huge platform.

Yeah.

But Marcus Luttrell, you know, him talking about it, and then Rick Perry, the former governor of Texas, Republican governor of Texas who hated marijuana, hated psychedelics, thought it was all just a bunch of hippie bullshit. Well, he had brain atrophy, natural age-related brain atrophy, and the doctor said, "Oh, it's just pretty normal, you know, standard, you're fine." Uh, goes and does this ibogaine session, comes back—

Rick did it himself?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, a couple. He's done a few. Goes and does this ibogaine session, uh, comes back, the doctor says, "You've had like a 25% improvement in your brain atrophy." So then 6 months later, he goes back again for another scan. His brain atrophy is gone. It's gone. He says he feels different. He thinks different. He feels better. Like his mind works better. So it's not just an experience, ibogaine in particular. It seems to be neuroregenerative in a profound way.

Yeah.

That if this was a drug that you could patent, the pharmaceutical drug companies would be all over this shit.

Yeah. Yeah, and it's proving to be one of the most effective drugs ever tested. If you're looking at efficacy versus a sample size, it's one of the most effective ever tested. Andy Stumpf and I just did a show about it. We're talking about this stuff, and he's brought a lot of awareness to this. And I think if we could get a little bit of awareness to it, I think we could cure a lot of this stuff. But I think the number one thing is is there a way that we can help to get this faster to people?

They're working on it. Brian Hubbard and Rick Perry— I mean, Rick Perry said openly that this is my life's mission now.

Really?

Yeah, I mean, former governor, Republican governor of Texas. His life's mission is to promote psychedelics now.

I'm so glad.

Oh, I'm so glad. And this is another— ibogaine is the best one to start out with, because ibogaine has zero recreational use. It's zero. You— it's not fun. Nobody likes it. It's not a good time. You throw up, you shit yourself, you freak out for 24 hours. But when you come back, you're a different person. And if you're willing to do that, if you're willing to do that, you can change. You can— you could do a lot of fixing. All that's— and also maybe even more importantly, be aware. Of what these little traps, these little deeply carved grooves that your consciousness seems to comfortably slip into over and over again, whether it's alcoholism or gambling or whatever it is. It seems to just shut those down in a very profound way that you can't get anywhere else.

Yeah, and it's just— I think it zooms you out to where you're like, "Oh, shit. I thought all that was important." Like you're talking about zooming out on these galaxies within galaxies and black holes and stuff. It gives you that perspective of like, whoa, I thought I was really special. I thought I was super important.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is one of the things that most psychedelics do is they remove that idea completely. They go, this is— you've got to get rid of this. This is tripping you up. You're carrying this fucking weight around everywhere and it's really stopping your progress.

Yeah. And it's kind of like you're in a video game and then somebody comes back and be like, "Hey, man, here's the way that— here's the shit you need to actually worry about. You don't need to do all this other stuff." Right, right, right.

Yeah, like a little helper guy in the video game.

Yeah.

"Guys, gotta come with me. This is the wrong room." Yeah. "They're coming. We gotta get out of this room." "Don't do that quest." Yeah.

That's what it is. And I mean, I'm a hypnosis guy. I studied all the brainwashing interrogation kind of stuff. This is the fastest way, I think, and I've studied every possible way to change human behavior that probably has ever been researched. And this is bar none the fastest. And I think one of the reasons that it helps people so much, and I don't want to— this is going to turn into a 2-hour psychadelics discussion, but it's your show. I don't care. Okay. I think it's because perspective shifting is what happens. If you're looking at life and you have this little GoPro as your consciousness and you're looking at this level, it just snatches that thing up and zooms it out and puts it in another location where you're like, "Oh my God, I had no idea it was like this." Right. And it seems to be that perspective, just the shift in perspective, seems to be the number one thing that psychedelics produce therapeutically. And that's the thing that cognitive behavioral therapy is trying to get done over the course of 10 or 12 years or however long it takes. But it just seems like it does it so fast in a profound way, and the stuff is non-addictive non-toxic.

You're not gonna see— it's not a street drug. You're not gonna see people out there on the street selling, like, DMT capsules. And DMT, I would say, similar to ibogaine, is not recreational.

I think it is.

You think DMT's recreational?

Yeah. I think there's a lot of people that recreationally do it. I think that would be your thought, you know, "Oh, just do this and have fun." And then once you do it, but it's no longer recreational. Have you heard— Once you— it's too profound to be just purely recreational.

Yeah. You've heard of people getting banned from this? Yes, I have. Jamie and I were just talking about this.

Yeah. I knew a guy who was a tattoo artist who got banned.

And you can keep taking DMT. Like, you can go take 10 hits on a DMT vape pen or something, and you're not going anywhere. Isn't that nuts? It's insane.

It's like they just decide. —No, no, no. You're doing this for the wrong reasons.

Yeah. I listened to one guy describe it and he's like, it's basically like you're knocking on the door of a nightclub and like the little thing opens up. It's like, no, you're not coming in.

You got to think like, what are they doing wrong?

Yeah, I think maybe going in with ego seems to be one of the things I see that's in common and people trying— just treating it like a little recreational thing.

The ego thing is a problem even within psychedelics, 'cause there's sort of a carve-out that happens, which I always refer to as spiritual narcissism. There's a bunch of people that do it that somehow or another want to be a guru or a leader and to show you that they're somehow or another better because they have had these experiences, they know more, and they pretend they know more. They pretend they know more, and then they get a whole bunch of people that are like, people, you know, very suggestible, and those people sort of listen to them, and then that's how you start a cult. And this— there's something to that. There's a specific type of narcissism that occurs from regular psychedelic use when people want to, like, lead groups of people.

Yeah. And I think if you go into a journey or two with no ego, do you know what you learn? Less. Like, you're less certain every time.

Oh, yeah.

About the world.

From the moment you get in there, you're like, Well, how is this real? How is this available 15 seconds away from normal reality?

Yes. Yeah. And it— I definitely think that we're moving forward. If we move forward with psychedelics, our species is going to move forward.

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I agree. And I think all the time, what would have happened if that sweeping Psychedelics Act, the Controlled Substances Act, Drug Act of 1970 hadn't been enacted. If this stuff had been available to people for the last, you know, 56 years, what would that be like?

Yeah, what would the '94 Ford Taurus actually look like?

It would be dope. It would look like a '69 Mustang.

Yeah.

'Cause those are the people that were doing drugs.

Exactly.

I mean, there's no other explanation in my mind why Cars started looking like shit.

And music.

Yeah. Went downhill.

Well, we still had some good music.

We had some good music.

Like Depeche Mode.

'Cause there's a bunch of people that still did drugs. But there was a giant change between 1950 and 1960 with automobiles, with music, with everything. And I think a large part of that, if you're really being honest, a large part of that is psychedelics.

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, if you've ever gone into a huge mosque, and looked up at the ceiling?

Oh, it's incredible.

It looks like exactly like what you see on all this stuff. I'll go no further on that topic, but just all the ancient artwork, it's so psychedelic and beautiful. It's like they got written out of history somehow. And I think there's a difference between drugs and medicine. Can we take a pee break?

Sure, sure, go ahead and take a pee break.

I'm good. I think it's the coffee.

Yeah. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. This summer, soccer is here, and the watch parties will be going back to back to back. But don't worry, Uber Eats has your game day essentials covered with 30% off all orders from Aldi, Kroger, and Dollar General. All the snacks and groceries to keep your crowd happy delivered straight to your door, like chips, dips, wings, guac, and fresh ingredients for the perfect game day spread. Order in so you can stay locked in on the game. All the hosting, none of the hassle. Order now for 30% off your game day snacks and grocery order only on Uber Eats for a limited time. Offer eligible for 30% off entire order. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Offer valid through July 5th. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. Pull it up, Jamie. So we're looking at— Jamie pulled up a bunch of photos of inside of mosques, and that, that in particular, that is absolutely a DMT experience.

So here's the question, like, I feel like I've been to that, right?

How about this location?

I mean, that looks super DMT. I've spent time there. Yeah, in that mosque, but right in that dimension.

What is that one, Jamie, to the upper left? You just You scroll up, up left, upper left corner. That, yeah.

I just—

What the fuck is that? Is that 3D? Oh, you know what that is, dude? I think that's Alex Grey's place. Is it? This says it's in Iran.

Oh, okay. Oh my god.

Well, you know what Alex Grey's doing? Do you know Alex Gray, the visionary artist? Yeah, so his Chapel of Sacred Mirrors, this— he has a real church that they built based on his artwork. Wow.

It's incredible. Nondenominational.

Yeah. It's just like—

Like a Rothko— like the Rothko Chapel.

You know, he's one of those guys— you know what I was talking about with spiritual narcissism running a group? He's the opposite of that.

Yeah.

Like, he's pure. And his place, like, this is his artwork, but this is his place. And if you look at the outside of it, that's the outside of the place.

That is so cool.

So the outside of the place is basically like 3D-printed artwork of his. That they've constructed into a building. I don't even know how he did it. It must have cost a fuckload of money. A bunch of people donated. But the inside of his— I think that is— So, he used to have a place in New York City that was like a gallery that was the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors. So, where's that?

His daughter does a lot of painting now.

So, that is it. That's on the Hudson. Yeah, in the Hudson Valley. I mean, he's incredible. Incredible artist and his ability to capture that experience. Like that one, if you go back— oh, actually scroll down to the lower left right there, the Egyptian-looking one, lower right there. Bam. I've seen that, dude. I've 100% seen that. I've seen that too. But go back to the other one that we were just looking at.

Is it the same?

No, that's not the same. That's the one I've seen. I've literally seen that. I've seen that those— and they move and change and morph Yeah. He's just able to nail it.

I don't know how he does that.

He's incredible.

One, he's a good artist, but two, being able to bring that back with coherence to where you can kind of show someone what it's like. I remember seeing that face, and I was like, in the DMT space, I was like, "Is that me?" And right when I said that, the mouth moved exactly like my mouth, and I was like, "That is me." me.

Well, you're it and it's you and you're everyone.

Yeah.

You're everyone and it's everyone. Yeah, the weird thing with the mosques, if you go back to some of those images please of the mosques, the first one that you pulled up, the ceiling, what were they doing? Not that one, the original one that you pulled up, that one. Yeah, like that's very, very DMT. So like what were they doing that they saw this and is that Was that a part of their religion at one point in time? And has that been forgotten? Like, what is it? Like, why, why did that exist? Go back to the first one, please. It had to have been.

That one.

This color seems a little sus. Oh really? You think it's AI?

Yeah.

I just, I've just seen so much AI stuff from last year.

Right.

It doesn't look like the rest of them. Well, go to that website. Or that 2-step rather. I mean, the photo just looks a little I'd say go to that website where it says 50 mesmerizing mosques. If it says where it is, then I'd totally— there it is, where it is. It's in Iran. We probably blew that up already.

God, I hope not. I hope not too.

I mean, didn't Israel blow up a bunch of like ancient Christian places in Lebanon? I believe they did. I don't know.

Some place.

This is the same place? So that's whatever that place is.

Sierra Omuk.

Is that the same place? Yeah. That is a very psychedelic place. Okay, look at that one. That's nuts. So what were they doing?

Is that 3D?

Well, it's like a 3D photo, so it's manipulated in a weird way. Okay, okay.

So that's like a fisheye.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right.

But either way, just the designs themselves are the actual design. So like, what were they doing that they wanted that to be represented? And is that missing? 'Cause there's a great book called "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross." Yeah. You ever read that?

Oh, please.

John Marco Allegro book?

Yeah.

So, John Marco Allegro, who was an ordained minister, but he was agnostic, and he was a guy that studied theology, and his conclusion after a year— I mean, even being an ordained minister, his conclusion was that, like, it's probably not— any one religion doesn't have it right.

Yeah.

And so, he was one of the people that was brought on to decipher the Dead Sea Scrolls. He deciphers it for 14 years, he works on it, and he writes this book called The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, where he believes that the entire story of Christianity is connected to the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms and fertility cults.

Yeah. Have you seen, like, Jamie— am I allowed to ask Jamie to pull something up?

Sure.

Yeah. Like, one of the original paintings of Jesus was him with a bunch of mushrooms.

Right. Yeah, well, the Adam and Eve, the fresco in France. So that Adam and Eve fresco that's painted on this— God, I want to say it's at least 1,000 years old. It's painted on this wall in France, is Adam and Eve and the Tree of Life, and the Tree of Life is mushrooms.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's the tree of knowledge.

Yes.

The fruit of knowledge.

Right. Right, it's not the Tree of Life. It's the fruit of knowledge. But this, the story of it, like that, like, what is the actual reference to why in the Bible? I don't want to paraphrase it as to why God told them not to eat from the fruit of that tree. Put that in the perplexity. What did God say to Adam? By the way, everybody blaming Eve, Adam was the only one who talked to God. We don't even know if Adam told Eve. He might have forgot to tell her and then blamed the whole human race suffering forever.

I didn't know that.

Yeah! I read that over and over again. I'm like, where does it say that Adam told Eve? It doesn't. Anywhere. God told Adam, "Eat from any tree in the garden except for the tree of knowledge of good and evil," and that if he ate from it, he would surely die. 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it, you will certainly die.' Okay. And what does that mean? Right. You will die of what? Ego death? Because if that's what it is—

Yeah.

And there's a weird thing is that the whole connection between the Amanita muscaria and the psychedelic book, or rather the Sacred Mushroom and the Cross book is that the Amanita muscaria is a red mushroom that looks like an apple. And in fact, the term— like, there's like confusion as to whether or not the term apple is actually meaning a red thing, and that it might not actually be an apple, but it might actually be— the original version of it might have been the Amanita. And then you have to think, How many thousands of years has this been around that it took— how many different people have translated it? How many different people have passed on the story? Like, what was the source? What was the original story?

And why delete it?

Right.

How does this get deleted so, like, pervasively?

Oh, yeah.

Around the whole world. Have you heard the Christmas traditions as well?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Santa Claus is a mushroom.

Wow. Oh my gosh.

And it's the same mushroom. Mushroom, the Amanita muscaria. The weird thing about the Amanita muscaria is it doesn't— like, not a lot of people have had psychedelic experiences on it. It's a very weird mushroom.

Do you think it evolved maybe over time?

It very well could have. McKenna had some thoughts on it. He said that it could be seasonal. It could be location. It could be like where it is. It could be genetic variations. It could be a bunch of different factors.

And if you consume it by way of reindeer piss.

Right.

Yeah.

Well, not only that, people drink their piss when they consume it, and it gives them like the second dose, the second burst. So apparently the psychedelic compounds come through the urine, and if you drink it, you just get a full straight blast.

Yeah.

And reindeer have been known to like knock shamans out of the way to drink their piss, because the reindeer are addicted to this mushroom, which is why they fly.— in the Santa Claus story.

Yeah. And I heard the story, these shamans would go around pulled by dog sleds or something. And the snow was so high that they would drop the stuff down the chimney to these people. And it was fresh mushrooms or fresh Amanita or something. And in order to dry it out, you'd have to hang it by the fire.

Right. And you hang it over the trees too, that people would put it on trees. And that's where the decorating the Christmas tree is. Also, those mushrooms, the Amanita muscaria, has a mycorrhizal relationship with coniferous trees.

I didn't know this.

Yeah. So that's where they grow. They grow underneath the trees, just like the brightly packaged presents that are underneath the trees on Christmas.

This story is—

It's a crazy story. It's like, what did we— what did we forget? How much did we forget?

What's been revised?

Right. Well, just think about what we're just talking about inside of our generation. So the 1970s, Controlled Substances Act. Now, that is a— that's a government that's restricting its citizens and trying to control its citizens, and one of the ways it does it is limit their psychedelic experiences.

Yeah.

That's not the only time that's happened, right? That's the Eleusinian Mysteries. That's from Brian Murarescu's book, The Immortality Key. Like, this is what they did back then. They banned these rituals. Why? It's very difficult to control people when you realize that we're all one.

Yeah.

You know, it's almost impossible. It doesn't work. They don't want to listen. You don't want to do it. You know, you start getting your lawmakers and your military people start doing it. Well, then war becomes impossible.

Absolutely impossible at that point.

Yeah.

Because that's me. I'm hurting myself.

Right.

Doing all that.

Exactly. Yeah.

Man, it's insane.

It is insane.

I want to— I wish there was like on a Google Doc how you can look at revision history I wish there was something like that for our race, our species.

Right, right.

Just so much has been changed and modified. And we have historians, but they're studying something that's been permitted and something that's been officially released. And this is more certainty. It's just more certainty. Like, "Oh, that reindeer story? That's bullshit, because I got this book from—" Yeah, they don't know it's bullshit. Liechtenstein or whatever, from this historian.

Yeah, this plea to authority that you have the answers. Bitch, you don't have the answers. You definitely don't. You can't. It's not possible. You can't have those answers.

Yeah. And we're in an age where this is proving to help with so many other things. And it's not just depression, but it's like Alzheimer's, dementia, Parkinson's, myasthenia gravis. Multiple sclerosis, autism it's helping with. Yeah.

Did you see that woman that had dementia that took 5 grams of mushrooms and slept for like 19 hours and woke up and then she could talk?

No.

You didn't see that story?

No.

Yeah, it was a recent story. There was a woman, she was nonverbal, she couldn't communicate, she couldn't dress herself, couldn't walk, couldn't do anything. Took 5 grams of mushrooms, slept for 19 hours, came back, started communicating, looking people in the eye, was able to change herself, was able to walk around.

How beautiful.

Crazy. And then with subsequent doses, her condition improved even more.

Yeah. And you had, I think it was Paul Stamets on, and he helped his mother through cancer, I think, like stage 3 cancer with turkey tail or something. I can't remember what it was.

Well, there's a bunch of mushrooms that help with inflammation. There's a bunch of mushrooms that help with cognitive function. Lion's mane is famous for that.

Yeah.

You know, there's— there's some weird relationship that we have with fungus, and one of the interesting things about fungus, we think of it as like a plant, but it's not. It breathes air. It breathes air like people do. It's a weird thing. And it also can survive in a vacuum. It can survive in the vacuum of space.

That's interesting.

Yeah, which is the panspermia notion that mushroom spores were— came here riding on an asteroid slammed into the Earth, and it might be one of the reasons why we're people in the first place. That's McKenna's idea.

Yeah, of how we, like, separated from our ancestral, like, Cro-Magnon roots.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this whole idea that people were created by aliens, yeah, maybe. Maybe those aliens are mushrooms. I mean, or maybe mushrooms is the way the aliens created people. Yeah. But, you know, it might be just how you add a little bit of fertilizer to the tomato plants to make them awesome.

Yeah. And it's just every generation— like, this generation says, "Oh, we're in this computer simulation right now." But, you know, during the Industrial Revolution, the universe was a machine.

Right.

And we started doing electricity, and the universe was energy and vibration. And now we invent computers, and all of a sudden, the universe is a computer. It's just every iteration So I tend to think that any theory that assumes humans are super special, I'm a little skeptical.

Yeah.

Because it assumes that A, like, these ancient, like, way up high beings have, like, a MacBook that they're trying to run this shit on.

Right.

And they're like, "Well, the hard drive would need to be the size of the solar system." Like, just assuming that they have the same of shit that we do. Right.

It's unbelievable. Yeah, that's a funny comparison. They used to think the universe was a machine. It's apt. It's so dead on. It's, uh, we always want to try to figure it out. I think it's way more complicated. And I think the more we figure it out, the more we realize it's way more complicated. And it is all connected. Like, people are super special. We really are. But so is everything else.

Exactly.

Everything's super special.

Yeah.

This is all— and everything is weirdly connected.

Yeah. And even if you look at regular-ass science, just basic-ass science, and you look at an Alan Watts quote of like, "We are the universe experiencing itself," that's just regular science. If we are the Big Bang, then we are the universe and we are experiencing it itself.

Yeah.

And you don't need to do any stretches of imagination for that to be true.

And Roger Penrose doesn't even think the Big Bang is the start of the universe. He thinks it's a series of Big Bangs.

Oh, really?

Yeah, he thinks it's like a never-ending cycle.

Did you have him on?

Yeah, a long time ago.

Wow.

What year did we have Roger Penrose on?

Isn't it Sir Penrose now?

Yes.

Didn't he get—

Sir.

Knighted?

I'm American, though.

Yeah.

I tend to shy away from those foolish knight— I mean, that's another thing. Oh, he's a knight. That's a king. Oh.

You know the— did I— I don't know if we talked about last time. Have I told you that, like, I figured out a way to edit memory?

No.

Like, you can do it with hypnosis.

So I know that you can introduce false memories into people's heads.

Yeah.

And I know that people create their own false memories.

Yeah.

So you found a way to do that different than that?

Yes. And I make videos similar to this on my YouTube channel, but I wanted to walk you through this process because I think you would love it.

Okay.

So if I want somebody to be able to edit a memory, I need to make them good at that skill first. So, and we already edit memories every time we touch a memory. Like if I think back to my wedding right now, I'll edit something and I'll do it unknowingly.

Right.

So, if our brain is already an expert at making these changes, and then, like, before I stop thinking about that wedding, my brain automatically clicks File, Save, right? And then, so the next time I look back on it, the memory is going to be there, but I won't see it as an edit. I'll just see it as that's the memory, no matter how many times I change it. Does that make sense?

Does that make sense?

Yes. Okay. So first we need to get them to start doing some of that stuff consciously. So if you take somebody back to, let's say, a childhood bedroom when they're 7, okay, and you do it very vividly with hypnosis. So like you're going in their file cabinet, you let them explore the bedroom, the details, all this kind of stuff. You make it extremely vivid and coherent. And then you have them pick up like a pencil, a really sharp brand new pencil, maybe from their pencil box from school or something. And they go over by the light switch in the bedroom and just make one dot on a wall. And I figured this out talking to game developers. And I was talking to game developers about how people figure out ways to exit the map, to exit the playable area of the game, because it kind of feels like that's what psychedelics do. Mm-hmm. It's like, it lets us kind of exit this little playable map temporarily. So one of these game developers said, "Oh, you just— if you can get somebody to modify one pixel, then they can modify the entire map." So if one pixel is glitching, then we can glitch— you can glitch all kinds of stuff.

So I thought maybe we can do that in humans. So I've done this hundreds of times. Yeah. So you just make a mark on the wall with a pencil, and then you kind of fast-forward their life. So like you bring them to like, say they were 6. Now we're going to bring them back into the room when they're 8. The bedsheets are different. Maybe the wall color changed, something like that. But the one thing they can do is walk over there to the light switch and see that that tiny little dot is still there. So something— and now you're starting to see that there's permanence through time. Does that make sense so far?

Mm-hmm, yeah.

So if we can get them to do that like 50 times, tiny change—

You're doing it through hypnosis?

Yeah.

Okay.

I mean, hypnosis is such a loaded, crazy word. They're relaxed, they feel safe, and their brain is in theta brainwave state most of the time, which is around 7 Hz.

Yeah, I've been hypnotized, and I thought it was gonna be like I didn't know what was going on, I was in another world. No, it's a very odd state of mind.

Yeah, it's kind of like guided meditation or—

But you feel very conscious. It's not—

Yes.

And I remembered it. It wasn't—

Yeah.

Didn't wake up my pants off. It was pretty normal.

Yeah, it's pretty—

Didn't become a Manchurian candidate.

As far as you know.

As far as I know, right?

So if you can do this 15, 20, 30 times of one pixel at a time and show that it's permanent through time, time, then you can go back to other events. And instead of editing the memory itself, you teach them how to shift perspective. So you— now you take them through 30 more events really quick, true events, a birthday party, a dinner, adult life, children, doesn't matter. And now, like, let's say I'm at a dinner party. Can I jump from one body to another and experience the event through that lens? So now— So first we make them an expert at editing memory and seeing permanence in time. Second is perspective shifting. In real memory. So I can jump across the table. I can be at my own wedding and maybe be somebody in the front row and, like, just shift their perspective in memory. The final layer is exactly what psychedelics do. So the final layer is, go back to that event when you got kicked in the nuts and everybody laughed at you in elementary school or whatever, and you can reprocess that memory in a very short amount of time as an adult.

Mm-hmm. With the perspective of an adult.

So meaning like, so if you had a traumatic event in high school where somebody beat you up in front of everybody and everybody mocked you and it just like destroyed your year and destroyed your confidence, you can go back and shift this person's experience.

Yeah. And instead of modify the memory, like, "Oh, that never happened," the memory stays, the perspective changes. So now you show permanence over time. So that has downstream effects for all kinds of stuff later in life. So this is when a script got written of, "I've gotta be tough, I've gotta be loud or somebody's gonna hurt me," or, you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

Like one of these little childhood scripts. So you get the downstream effects, so you can go in there and there's prob— you could probably edit memories. I've always been nervous to modify stuff that's way more than like a pixel or something insignificant. But the memory stays the same. The perspective is what changes, and you can show that it's got a demonstrable effect downstream of that. Their whole life can be different after that day. And it's just like a mushroom. That's exactly what psychedelics do. It's this massive perspective shift on memory.

And so is this something that you're actively doing?

Uh, with clients, I'll do this on occasion. But now it—

Is anybody else doing it?

Maybe a few. There's probably a few people doing it.

And is there any, like, times where you guys get together and discuss techniques and what's effective and what's not effective and—

There should be. We don't.

Right, because it seems like this is— it's kind of a big deal, and it seems like someone could fuck it up. Like, it has the potential for delusional perspective shifting.

There's a— Yeah. It's— I mean, you got to be responsible about it. About it. But nowadays, I think that psychedelics can achieve a lot of that without having to go through some, like, I need you to go back to the original event and having me vocally take you back there using this archaic, stupid-ass language that can't even describe a psychedelic experience with this language.

Right.

This is what I was doing mostly before psychedelics. And you know how I got into psychedelics was the Spirit Molecule movie. That you did the voiceover for it, and that was what kind of introduced me to the entire field of everything, where I thought, "Wow, this just doesn't seem like a recreational drug." And that was the big shift, was watching that documentary for me.

Yeah, my big shift was reading Rick Strassman's book.

I still haven't read it. I need to.

Yeah, he was the first guy to get FDA approval to do psychedelic studies. And the way he did it was very clever. He did it to prove that these are damaging and dangerous. That's how he framed it.

That's so brilliant.

He's a very smart guy. I mean, you're talking about a guy who taught himself ancient Hebrew.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, over 16 years, taught himself to read and speak ancient Hebrew so that he could really read the Bible in its original form.

Wow.

Yeah. He's fascinated by prophecy and ancient religious stories. And, you know, he, like a lot of people that have had DMT experiences, you, once you do, you look at those old stories and you go, okay, what are these stories really? What was the original event? Like, it's so hard when you're, like Moses and the burning bush. Well, there's scholars in Israel that think that burning bush bush was the acacia tree, and that the acacia tree is rich in DMT. And that might be what it represents. This experience of meeting God through a burning bush is he smoked DMT.

Yeah.

Which for anybody who's done DMT, they go, "Oh, that makes sense." Yeah. I mean, these scholars, I don't think these scholars are freaks. I don't think they're psychedelic heads. I think they're just religious scholars that are trying to like figure out like, what was the origin of that —Yeah.

I've never heard of that. The acacia.

Yeah. Well, acacia tree, very rich in DMT, but phalaris grass, very rich in DMT.

Mimosa plant.

Yeah. And for people that don't know, the reason why— well, DMT exists in probably thousands of different plants, but you can eat those plants and not experience DMT because of monoamine oxidase. So mono— MAO is what your gut makes to break this stuff down so it doesn't become psychoactive. But when you take an MAO inhibitor and the psychedelic, then you get ayahuasca. That's what ayahuasca is. That's why it's an orally active version of DMT.

Yeah. Which, methylene blue is an MAO inhibitor.

Oh, interesting.

It's a pretty light— it's a pretty light form of it. But if you're on methylene blue and you do— psychodelics, it's gonna deepen.

I can imagine. A lot of people are very hesitant about methylene blue. They don't like the idea of it. They think it's very dangerous or potentially dangerous, that we don't know enough about it.

We've been researching it since 1890-something, and it's in every emergency room.

Is it really?

Every emergency room.

Have you ever heard of anybody having bad experiences with methylene blue or side effects or—

There are some contraindications. So people that are on high-dose SSRIs, Oh, okay. And if you're taking an MAOI, you can't eat aged cheese and wine 'cause of this chemical called tyrosine that's in there.

Oh, aged cheese.

Yeah.

So something about the fungus?

The mold? Yeah, maybe there's, red wine and aged cheese both have tyrosine, which when you mix tyrosine with an MAOI, it can cause a hypertensive crisis. So like a super blood pressure issue.

Oh.

But I haven't heard anybody having a bad time with it, but you gotta stick to the right dose. Talk to, obviously you gotta talk to a doctor about it.

Well, let's ask AI. Put that into AI, put that into Perplexity. See what is the negative consequences of taking methylene blue. Maybe there's something that we don't know. —Huberman's a little bit hesitant about it, you know.

Yeah.

You see, and I've talked to other people that say it seems like for certain metabolic conditions it's very beneficial, but for people that have a normal metabolic— like your, your whole system is working fine and perfect, it might not just not be necessary but might cause harm. But they were very vague about what that harm would be.

I don't think it's for everybody. It may not be for everybody. It saves my life for sure. Which, I mean, I could stop taking it today and I'll have a seizure within 48 hours.

That's wild.

Yeah.

You said you had a seizure last time after you visited here?

The night before I came on the show.

Wow. Okay, Methylene Blue. This is our AI sponsor, Perplexity. Methylene Blue can cause a range of side effects from mild nuisance symptoms to rare but life-threatening reactions. Especially at higher doses or when combined with certain medications. Common short-term side effects: headaches, dizziness, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. Nothing. Don't be a pussy.

Yeah, my toilets are actually stained.

From pee?

Yeah.

Yeah, it does make your pee blue. Sweating, feeling hot or cold, muscle twitches. Harmless: blue-green discoloration of urine, sometimes stool or skin. Serious risk: serotonin syndrome when combined with antidepressants, just like you were just saying, or other serotonergic drugs, SSRIs, SNRIs, MAOIs, some opioids, St. John's wort.

G6PD is a big contraindication there. So methylene blues in ERs because of methemoglobinemia, which is like when your hemoglobin can't bind to oxygen really well. Mm, it sounds like they're— And it's also the only cure for cyanide poisoning is methylene blue. Blue. Really?

Yeah. Cyanide?

It will stop cyanide in its tracks. Whoa. It probably says that on here.

Oh, interesting. Safety for chronic low-dose experimenting for anti-aging or cognition is not well established and is current— not currently recommended without medical supervision. Hmm. I know a lot of people that take it. I know a lot of people that take it.

I know Bobby takes it.

Uh-huh. Yeah, he's one of them. A lot of people that take it that say it improves cognitive function. It's supposed to also, when you take it with red light therapy, it's supposed to greatly increase the effect.

Unbelievably so. Yeah.

Yeah. Really?

I mean, number one, if you want to go into it for just a minute here.

Sure.

Methylene blue has what's called a neuronal affinity. So they used to, like, you stick it on a microscope slide with a brain cell, it sucks into the neuron, like, automatically. And it does the same thing in your body. So if I know that I'm basically dyeing all of my neurons blue, and I'm not just talking about in your head, like, we have neurons everywhere, our whole body. So if I'm dyeing a lot of my neurons blue and I see something that's blue, methylene blue is blue because it reflects blue light, which also means that it absorbs almost all red. So if my neurons are dyed blue and then I go into near-infrared and infrared light, I know that I'm getting way more absorption in there.

Let's fucking go. That makes sense.

In the third stage of cellular breathing, we produce this chemical called cytochrome c oxidase, cytochrome is like cell color, cytochroma, where our cells can start running, essentially running on photons, which is beautiful and amazing. And if you get a good red light system, and I have no plug, but you get a good red light system, it'll penetrate through the skull up to like 4 inches through your skull in good systems.

Whoa.

Even lasers, they make laser beds and all this other stuff.

Yeah, I have one of those red light beds. It looks like a tanning bed. I bought it up from Gary Brecker's company. It's very expensive, but it's pretty profound. I don't need reading glasses anymore. I used to have these fucking things everywhere, all over my house. I used to need them to read my phone if I wanted to read an email. I don't need them anymore.

Wow.

Yeah, it's nuts. I don't bring them with me anymore. If I would go on the road before and I had to do a trip trip for the UFC or whatever, and I didn't have my reading glasses. I'm like, fuck, now I gotta make everything big. I can't read anything. Not anymore. No, my vision got better from red light therapy.

I don't doubt it.

For sure. I also don't close my eyes. I keep my eyes wide open.

Same.

They're like, oh, you need goggles. You're like, like you're fucking staring at the, some nuclear bomb or something.

Yeah.

It's not, no. So it doesn't seem to bother my vision at all.

Yeah. And I've heard so many doctors— and obviously, none of this is advice for anybody. I've heard so many doctors say, "Throw the safety goggles in the trash. Look right into it if you want to. It's gonna help your eyes." There's so many stories of people with macular degeneration and glaucoma and eye conditions and stuff that it's gotten multitudes better than it was.

Obviously, my story is anecdotal, but my vision was shifting. In a real bad way. I was using 3, those 3-power ones, you know, those cheap— these things are cheap. I buy them off Amazon. But I used 3, and I started with 1, like 1 power, and then it got to 2 power, and then I'll get to 3. I'm like, Jesus Christ, I'm fucking going blind. I can't see shit.

Yeah.

I don't need any anymore. Now, my vision's not perfect. It's not 20/20. It's not what it used to be. So when I read things, it's like maybe slightly blurry, and if I put reading glasses on, it'll look a little better. But I don't need them anymore, and it keeps getting better. I also take lutein and a bunch of different supplements. I take this— no affiliation, I don't work with them or anything, but it's called Pure Encapsulations Macular Support. They have a supplement for it. I take those. I've been taking those steadily at the same time I've been doing the red light therapy, and it works. Mm-hmm. At least it works for me, you know. It worked for Whitney Cummings, same thing with her. Her vision got way better. She's very diligent about it. She does it every day.

There's something there.

Yeah.

Something there.

Well, there's for sure something about staring at a fucking phone all day that's really bad for your eyes. Staring at a phone, staring at a tablet, staring at a laptop, staring at a computer screen. It's not good for your eyes, period.

There's no way.

There's no way. When I look at my phone in bed at night, if I do, it hurts my eyes.

Yeah.

You know, like if it's dark in the room and I'm like, let me check my email real quick, I get to my email, it's like, ah, it's like it's bright. If I go to a website that's like a white website, it's like, ah, it hurts.

Yeah. And did you know you can change your iPhone? Like if you go into accessibility, it's like color overlay, I forget the name of it, where you can make the whole screen red.

I have seen people do that. I have not done that.

I've tried to do it on mine. It's tough, but I did it on our 2-year-old's iPad, and nothing is addictive anymore. Like, she won't sit there and stare at it for more than 3 or 4 minutes anymore.

Whoa.

Yeah, and it's just— like, I didn't buy some special device or anything. You just go into accessibility and make it red, and it used to be that she would just sit there and hold the iPad. I'm an anti-electronics guy, so I wanted to try this experiment. And the moment I turned it red, she didn't complain about the red. She got used to it within 15 minutes and never complained again. Her iPad has never gone off of the red mode, and she doesn't get hooked into shows anymore.

Whoa.

She'll watch it for a few minutes and be like, "Okay, that's great," put it down, and then she'll go play.

Wow.

So it's worth an experiment if anybody's got little small kids out there, or do it to yourself.

It's amazing that they provide you with a tool to escape the addiction that they've created.

It's so true, man.

'Cause it's a pretty intense addiction. I think they feel like, good luck, you're never getting off this hook. This hook is sunk in deep and the barb is strong.

Big time.

It's so strong.

And it's the production tool of reality right now. If I wanna alter reality, I've just gotta engineer how you see it.

And that's the way that we see reality is what's on my phone, Yeah, and that's the problem that a lot of people have with tech companies is that you're giving these people that aren't particularly wise. They might be intelligent. They figured out how to code these things and make these things and market these things, but it's not like they're monks. They're not these like profound visionaries that are much more educated, enlightened than the general population.

Right.

No, a lot of them have autism. No empathy. They're out of their fucking minds, and they're optimizing the software continually to to get people to engage with it. They want you to.

Yeah, I mean, that's the EBITDA. That's the bottom line revenue comes from ads and how many ads can I show you and if I know—

And your data, how much data of yours can I sell?

Yeah.

It's nuts.

Which is why I think it's so important for people to be literate, extremely literate in What's going on with your phone? What's going on with your brain? And psyops, like the shit that we see coming out of the news right now. And I'm the guy that trains psyops. In 2 days after I leave here, I'm going to Fort Bragg to train the United States Army Psyops Division. I'm the guy.

What are you training them in? Are you allowed to say?

In psyops.

Are you just training them how they work and how to do it?

Yeah, I'm the body language, like, people reading guy. I don't know if you've ever seen our YouTube channel, The Behavior Panel. Yes.

Me and a couple of— You got a great YouTube channel. It's awesome. Really good.

Thank you. Thanks. And I have another one with 3 other behavior profilers where we break down videos of people in interrogation and stuff like that. And I think it's so important to be literate in a lot of this stuff and how does our brain work? How can I be compromised? And so I created a tool and I gave it to Jamie. Before we started the show that will give you a 1 to 100 score on how likely something is a psyop.

Oh, is it an app or is it like on a website?

It's just a PDF.

Okay.

And you can run anything through it and you can run it historically and see what's a psyop and what's not.

Oh.

And it's kind of subjective, but at least you get a standardized score for everything. And you can see like if you went to,— like the invading Iraq initially.

Okay, that's a good one.

That would score a 98 out of 100 for SIOP, just on this tool here. So it kind of goes in layers. So step 1 is like this pre-ignition. Like I have societal stuff going on, there's moral panic. Then operational, are there drills happening that are kind of similar to this military ramping up? The regulatory, Obviously, it's pretty there, like bills getting passed at 2 in the morning and 5,000 pages. Right, censorship bills. Yeah. Then alignment, so like people suddenly aligning, different news agencies, and then authorities, celebrities are starting to come out with the same messaging and stuff like that. And then media, like just kind of flooding little slogans and stuff. So if that kind of scores kind of high, and you don't even need the numbers right now, then we move to the next one, So has this happened before, the precursor anomalies? Like, have they done this before? Well, matter of fact, they gave people LSD against their will at MKUltra, you know, whatever. Like, is there some precursor?

Right.

And then identical phrasing across unrelated outlets. So we see something on MSNBC and Fox saying the same kind of phrasing or something. That's kind of suspicious. And then introduced villains that are prepackaged. Pretty obvious Yes, injecting symbolism and then the manufactured urgency. Like if this bill isn't passed in the next 72 hours, we're going to face a national crisis and all this kind of stuff. And then you could just kind of go down the walkway and it'll give you a predictive score of how likely something is a PSYOP. And one of the biggest things is if you don't want to like, this is a lot of crap to memorize, but are you seeing authority figures resonate with each other and is nuance not being presented to you? And that's like, if I'm not seeing nuance, if I have a left versus right issue and there's a prepackaged villain, that's a PSYOP. If you just look at those couple of things, is— and nowadays we have a death of nuance where no one's getting presented any nuance to anything.

Right.

It's either you're on this side, you're wearing this jersey or this jersey. Which is really toxic to our whole entire country, the whole world.

And it's accentuated by clips and these weird little things.

Yeah, and if you're on the left—

Take out nuance.

Let's say I'm on the left. When I log into social media, whatever it is, they're gonna show me the dumbest shithead morons on the other side that they could possibly find.

Yep.

And same thing if I'm on the right. They're gonna show me the biggest idiots and their only goal is being like me thinking, "Oh my God, these people are insane." And it's me thinking that's all of them.

Right.

But like if you go to Target right now and see somebody that voted differently than you, you want the same shit. You want your kids to be healthy. You want safety. You wanna pay less taxes. You want the government less and less involved in your life. They're not all insane, but their goal is to make you think all the other side is insane. Is insane, right? That's the ultimate SIOP. So then at the end, you kind of get a 1 to 100 score. And I started a— I bought a TV station. Did I tell you about this?

No.

I was going to text you, or I was going to send you an email about this. I bought a TV station. We started our own daily news show where we run the day's events all the way through the SIOPS Index every single day. And we show here's how you're being presented, here's how you're being made to feel about this issue, here's where nuance has been taken out, every single thing that's like truly going on. Here's the bill that got passed that nobody's talking about that has a lot to do with this. Here's the— they're saying the Strait of Hormuz is going to open, but here's what Brent crude is predicting oil prices at. So the insurance market has a lot more info than the news is going to give you. So we try to give you every single day, here's how you're being made to feel. Here's the actual news. Here's what the left is gonna say, here's what the right's gonna say, and here's where they're killing nuance. Here's where you're being presented a binary choice. And I think I'm trying to— like, I want to make psyops irrelevant. And what we have to do, what are the steps we have to take to not really inoculate people from psyops, but just to make them so so fucking visible that it's just obvious.

And yeah, they're gonna have to invent something else, and they will, but at least for a few years, people are really wise to everything. Like, this is very obvious, 'cause like all the things that were up on that sheet right there, if you look at that a few times, it starts to become irrelevant. And like, my goal is to make people more expensive to influence.

Yeah. Mm. I think it's possible. I think if this gets out there, the more people are aware and just can piece it together, and the more that narrative starts getting pushed, that people start repeating it, like, let's pay attention to this. When you say you bought a TV channel or a TV station, what do you mean?

Like an actual station, a physical station with a news desk and—

Where does it air?

It's on YouTube right now.

So where'd you buy this place? Where— was it just like—

10 minutes from my house.

So it was a former TV station that was going out of business?

Yeah, we retrofitted everything, upgraded it.

Oh, wow.

But it's—

There's probably a fire sale on TV stations right now.

Yeah, it was— we got a good deal.

Nobody's watching TV.

And—

That's great.

Yeah, we retrofitted it and the quality's up there with Fox or anybody else. We have a daily show.

What's The Daily Show on YouTube called?

Station One.

Station One. Yeah.

Surprisingly, that wasn't taken.

It's a new channel?

Yeah.

Oh, perfect.

Brand new channel. We have like— most of the subscribers were my mom, I think, for the first month. We're growing now.

So you just started it off and no fanfare, just try to get the feet on the ground.

Yeah, try to kick it off. And it's, you know, I do it with my YouTube channel, which I've got 2 million something subscribers on YouTube. And it's cool that I can make these documentaries, but you know, on YouTube, like, you can't change it up on people. Like, there's— the algorithm punishes when you change things. So we had to start a new channel.

Interesting.

Like, you guys started JRE Clips because you can't— like, back in the day, the algorithm said you can't do short-form and long-form stuff, and the algorithm kind of punishes you for that. So you had to make a new channel. Channel for it? Probably what Jamie did or the team did.

I don't remember what the initial reason was. I think we decided it would be good just to have a second channel as well anyway, just in case, because there was always the threat that YouTube was going to remove us.

Oh, okay.

Which I do think that if it wasn't for Spotify and it wasn't for the fact that I was primarily on Spotify, I probably would have been removed during the whole COVID thing.

Oh my God. Yeah.

Yeah. 'Cause we were regularly questioning a bunch of different things that could have got you removed. We were regularly questioning the COVID lab leak. We were regularly questioning whether or not there was any danger to taking these vaccines, regularly questioning alternative medical care.

Yeah, and that was maybe the biggest psyop of our lifetimes.

For sure. —now confirmed.

That woke up normal people. Uh-huh. That woke up average people.

Oh, yeah.

Because it was so obvious.

Woke up a lot. Some of them, like, they just can't shake them. They're on 15 Ambiens. Fucking—

Yeah.

They're just— they're gonna stay.

I've got family members that are very trustful of government, and they're like, "No, Chase, if it was gonna go bad or if it was this thing, they would tell us." And I was like, "These are the people who gave you the food pyramid." Right. And told you to eat 16 loaves of bread every day.

And yeah, it's the idea that the government is here to help you. It's like, that's the dumbest.

That was Reagan's best line.

Yeah. That they're the five. Yeah. We're the government and we're here to help. Yeah. Yeah. That's, it's interesting how people will believe in the government if it is convenient government, but then if the other people are the government, then it's 100% negative.

Yeah.

It's like what— people are so ideologically captured, and that's why people are completely unwilling to look at anything positive that one of the other members, someone from the other side proposes.

Exactly.

Which is what I found really fascinating about the response to the Trump thing. You know, that Trump passing this psychedelic initiative and trying to push through ibogaine and psilocybin and all these different methods that people have used to overcome addiction and treat all these different things that we talked about before. They didn't know what to do with that. That was a weird one because they tried to find all sorts of negatives. I saw people trying to find negatives.

Because it's him.

Yeah.

Which is so crazy.

And there was also negatives because it was pushed by me. And the idea, like, what, is Joe Rogan helping mental health policy in America? Is that real?

You're the green guy who takes horse paste, though. Yeah. And a dragon believer.

Yeah, it's an interesting time to be alive, you know? Really is.

So, emotionally for you, I think if I saw myself edited like that on CNN or something, I feel like that would wreck me. I feel like that would emotionally make me feel like shit for such a long time. Were you just like over it?

Oh, it didn't make me feel like shit for a second. I started laughing. I thought it was hilarious.

Okay.

I was also very aware that they weren't aware that my show was way bigger than them. See, the thing about mainstream media is that mainstream media had ruled for so long that they had gotten delusional. They had been like a champion that didn't think that he had to train anymore. And then some new contender came along that had been, you know, in the mountains of fucking Siberia.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Someone came out of the blue and just fucked them up. And they were— they're so bad at this thing that they think they run. And they also are very— they're very unaware of the actual playing field. So the actual playing field that they exist in is so limited that they cannot ever achieve the kind of acceptance or interaction or trust that alternative media can.

Yeah.

So there's too many people involved. Too many people will most certainly move things and water things down to like what you were talking about before, like here's what I want people to think I believe, right?

Yeah.

Which is most of what mainstream media produces. It's, here's what I want people to think I believe. You don't believe any of those people reading that teleprompter because none of it seems sincere. Your mind registers this is a person reading something that's been written. It doesn't register. And then when you see them talking freeform, like on those panel shows on CNN, you're like, oh, you guys are fucking retarded. Like, this is— you guys have some of the dumbest opinions. You're so uninformed. You're so ideologically captured. Yeah. This is so not compelling. They've turned CNN into a fucking group podcast. That's a lot of the shows on CNN are bad podcasts with like shitty guests who, you know, they're no nuance and they're yelling over each other.

Exactly.

It's a terrible format.

No nuance whatsoever.

It's also the problem that they have to break for commercials.

Oh yeah.

And then there's a problem that the funding for those commercials, a giant chunk of it of it is pharmaceutical drug companies.

Huge.

Yeah. And as Mike Benz and Kallie Means and a lot of people have talked about, they don't do that because they want to sell drugs. They do that because now the news will not criticize the pharmaceutical drug company.

Yeah.

Because the pharmaceutical drug company's responsible for an enormous part of their income.

Yeah. And I mean, I wouldn't say definitively that that's happening, but I mean, I mean, if you're the CEO or the president, you know exactly where the money's coming from.

100%.

And if you get a phone call that says, "Hey, you know what? Maybe not mention that." Yeah. Or maybe—

And maybe attack someone who's got a narrative and turn them green and do all that other stuff. But like I said, for me, it was making me laugh. I thought it was funny. I thought it was funny. I was like, "This is such a classic mistake. Like, you guys are completely—" Out of touch. Yeah, just delusional.

Not understanding the backlash of that, of just doing open, like, in-your-face, like, there was no, like, "Hey, look over here." Right. It was just in-your-face psyop.

Not just that, they're also— you're making a green version of a video that exists on Instagram first. So, it's already out there. You don't think the internet is gonna see that there's a difference in my skin tone on CNN than on Instagram? On Instagram, I look rosy and healthy. I wasn't lying. I was making a video. I was talking— if I was really sick, I was outside. I was outside having a— I was like, I feel good. I felt shitty for a day. I was being completely honest.

Yeah.

Nor did I ever think that it was gonna be controversial to talk about ivermectin. I had no idea. So ivermectin was not a controversial substance before I talked about it in that one video. Yeah. —It was normal. You could get it at a pharmacy. Your doctor could prescribe it to you. Mine did, but he also prescribed to me a ton of other stuff.

Exactly. It's so much other stuff, like fenbendazole, that's now getting into the same category as ivermectin was. And Mel Gibson talked about it here with you. Yes. That combo. And there's a study now that shows, I think it's from 2022, that it's a cancer treatment, like a new cancer treatment.

Right.

What the hell?

I know.

It's not patented, so it's—

Exactly.

It's a demon.

It's a demon, and these news stations are all complicit. They're all in bed with the pharmaceutical drug companies, who again, are responsible for an enormous part of their advertising budget, and that's where they make their money.

Yeah.

And they don't have a lot of people that believe them. Them anymore. I think they lost a lot of their credibility during the COVID epidemic.

Who? Media?

News media.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think most— And the government.

And the government. But most people are aware like, oh, this is a psyop. And then of course the final straw was Elon purchasing Twitter and then the Twitter Files. So when Matt Taibbi and Michael Schellenberger and all these different people got a hold of these files, where you could see the emails between the federal government and these social media companies where they were asking people to censor true stories. And you're like, "What?" And then when Zuckerberg was on my podcast and explained how the FBI had contacted him and told him that they wanted him to censor stories and censor the Hunter Biden laptop story. It's terrifying. —It's fucking crazy. This is literally banana republic shit.

So, have you heard of Project Mockingbird?

Yes.

Operation Mockingbird. I mean, it's not new. So, I mean, somebody says like, "Oh, I can't believe the government's doing this." I'm like, "Wait a second. Just go— just look at history." Right. And Dr. Phil says, "One time is a pattern." And if you go back, there's way more than one time this has happened. Operation Mockingbird, Walter Cronkite, was a CIA asset.

Yeah.

Legit CIA asset.

So is Anderson Cooper.

Is he?

Anderson Cooper worked for the CIA when he was in college.

I didn't know that.

Yeah. Look that up. Make sure that's true. I'm 99% sure. 99% sure, rather.

Julia Childs.

Whoa!

Did you know she was CIA?

Whoa, she's a lovely, lovely little thing.

She's beautiful.

She was in the CIA teaching people how to bake?

I think she did the— hand-to-hand combat course.

Fuck people up with a rolling pin. Is the Anderson Cooper thing correct? I believe he worked for the CIA in college. Anderson Cooper interned at the CIA for 2 consecutive summers while he was a political science major at Yale University. He did not pursue a career in intelligence— wink wink— after graduating, later describing the agency's desk work at Langley as less James Bond than I hoped it would be.

Yeah.

Well, I think it's all less James Bond. It's more money. It's more money and influence and what do the people in power want people to believe. But he's not the only one. Walter Cronkite—

There were hundreds.

Yeah.

Hundreds and hundreds. So much so, it was every network, and there's no direct— there's no declassified document that says, "Here's what we told them to say," or, "Here's how compromised they were," whatever. But they were compromised completely and most likely told exactly what to say or what stories to suppress.

Does Mike Wallace have some sort of a connection?

I don't know.

See if Mike Wallace had some sort of a connection with the CIA. But it's a bunch of prominent, respected, trusted news anchors.

Yes.

Yeah.

All over the place.

Yeah.

And this is through the '50s, '60s, '70s. I think in the beginning of the '70s until this thing called the—

Mike Wallace is famous for his probing investigative reporting on CBS's 60 Minutes regarding the CIA, most notably a landmark 1993 report titled The CIA's Cocaine, exposed— so he's the opposite. So he worked to expose CIA stuff. The report exposed a covert CIA anti-drug operation in Venezuela that allowed hundreds of millions of dollars in cocaine being smuggled. Okay, this is the Iran-Contra affair.

Yeah.

Yeah, okay, so it's the opposite.

But with so many things, like, somebody's like, "Oh, I can't believe COVID's doing this." Be like, "Well, look at history again." Like, we dosed millions of people with LSD against their consent, against their will.

Was it millions?

I think— well, there were experiments with aerosol forms of LSD that were in cities. —What? Yeah.

I didn't know about that.

Jamie.

Aerosol LSD in cities?

Somewhere near, like, Vermont or Boston. It was somewhere up in, like, the New England area.

Um—

Dude.

What kind of a psycho do you have to be to, like, get a crop duster plane and fill up a tank of LSD and just spray it on kids? I don't— I don't get it.

And then you go back to when we dosed I don't know how many African Americans with syphilis, or we grouped them together that they had syphilis.

Uh-huh, and didn't treat them.

And gave them fake treatments and stuff.

US government has never openly sprayed LSD from their air over entire cities. However, during the Cold War, intelligence agencies and the military did conduct covert aerosol and mind control experiments on the public. What does that mean? It means you did it.

Yeah, not from a plane though, most likely.

They were like— They probably had a fan and a bucket.

Yeah.

CIA's notorious Project MKUltra. Ultra sought to weaponize LSD and use it for mind control. CIA operatives were sent to San Francisco to spray the air with LSD-25 at an unwitting party of guests. Oh, I did hear about this. The result, the agency ultimately abandoned the specific aerosol test at the last minute because the summer weather was too hot to keep the windows closed and their specialized aerosol device malfunctioned.

There we go. Number 2, the Army sprayed thousands of unsuspecting Americans with aerosolized chemicals.

Yeah, military released a fine powder called zinc cadmium sulfide over 33 rural and suburban— urban, rather, and rural areas. Scroll up a little bit, please. Yeah, the targeted cities, affected cities included St. Louis, Minneapolis, Winnipeg, Corpus Christi, and Fort Wayne. St. Louis was deliberately chosen because its population density and the terrain were similar to the Soviet targets like Moscow.

Mm.

I was just looking up something else. Um, did you know about this? Why the fuck did Dan Rather and Donald Rumsfeld buy a New Mexico ranch together in 1981? That's the same year he was promoted to news anchor at CBS Evening News. Oh, good lord. And it's also like right next to next door to the Epstein ranch in New Mexico. Right, and Epstein famously got that to be close to Los Alamos, right? So he could lure those scientists over with pussy.

Unbelievable.

Yeah.

But I mean, like, you go back through history, this is— everybody's like, "Oh, the COVID was crazy." It's not new.

It's just we hadn't experienced it so blatantly before because they had never tried something like that during the age of social media Yeah.

And they used a playbook that relied on putting a letter in the mail or sending a telegram.

Yeah. They used a playbook also that required having control over the narratives that were being pushed out by the media.

Yeah.

And the media had lost its luster. It lost its impact on people. At the same time, the rise of podcasts had happened kind of under the radar, and they didn't recognize it. They missed it. They just overestimated their position.

Yeah, and during COVID you had more viewers than CNN, even.

Not only that, when they turned me green and all that cancelation, I gained 2 million followers on Spotify in a month.

Wow.

Yeah.

Wow.

People were just like, "What is going on that everybody's trying to cancel this guy? Like, what is he doing?" And then they'd listen and go, "Oh, it's just a show where they talk to people. What are they trying to hide from us?" And then you have guys on like Dr. Peter McCullough and Robert Malone and all these different doctors people that are— Peter McCullough is the most published doctor in history, in human history, in his particular field of study. And they were trying to make him out to be a quack. And then you see what they did with Jay Bhattacharya and all these different people.

And one of those guys was the inventor of mRNA.

Robert Malone. He has 9 patents on the creation of mRNA technology.

And he should never be out there telling people that it might not be safe.

Not only that, he took it and had a fucking serious, horrible reaction where he almost died.

Really?

Yeah, which is what prompted him to try to figure out what the fuck is going on.

Oh my God.

'Cause he was assured by everyone that it stayed local, it's not gonna cause massive inflammation and, you know, myocarditis and all these different things that it eventually was absolutely causing. You know, and then there's, you know, they're trying to hide now the impact that it's had on children. You know, the impact that it's had on children that took it and how— what giant percentage of them that died after taking it died within days of the injection.

Yeah.

And they're trying to ignore the signal. And there's so many gaslighters all over Twitter. There's people that are paid to gaslight on Twitter. That's a fact. They— there's pharmaceutical drug companies, just like a lot of other companies, will pay people to post. They'll pay people to attack. They'll pay people to be be the voice of authority and reason so you can assure all the brainwashed boomers that they're right all along and everything's fine.

Yeah, and if you just look at basic manipulation and mind control, the number one fear of human beings is supposedly public speaking, right? But that's not it. It's the judgment that might come from public speaking. It's not the being on stage.

Right.

It's like, is somebody going to judge me? Am I going to get ostracized? So the way that they control a lot of this and gaslight people is to use the fear of social punishment and social enforcement. And if I can get one celebrity to go out there and call these people a name and just give them a name as if it's a group of people, you know, like anti-vaxxer, conspiracy theorist, dragon believer, that kind of thing. We give it a name and that makes it easier for other people to socially enforce. And it comes from an authority figure. So you get the tribe involved, and all you gotta do is fuck up a few people.

Yep.

Like Robert Malone.

Mm-hmm.

And they're like, "Hey, I can take this guy down. What do you think I'm gonna do to you?" Yeah. And you just get that fear out there, and that's all you need to do. And you kind of gaslight people, 'cause now I'm scared enough, but I won't say I'm scared. I'll say, "Nah, I'd rather not just say my opinion." So now my identity gets tied into it. Now it's part of who I am. I'm just not going to say anything. And it gets normalized, like the absolute, just let me mute myself and tape my mouth shut so I don't get punished.

And then there's a bunch of people that attack and do the work for the man because they don't want to be lumped in with the other side. So they'll go on social media and call the anti-vaxxers there's plague rats and all these different things.

Yeah.

And also say the wildest shit, like their children should be taken from them, they should be locked up, isolated from society.

And this is something called category warfare. Have you ever heard of this?

I know the expression.

This guy, I can't remember his name, he wrote a book called Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things. It was the first language categories that we had for language was women, fire, and dangerous stuff.

Mm.

I think his name was Lakon, George Lakon or Lakoff. But if I frame something using a category, I can change what the allowed behavior is. So if I say that me and this other person are having a disagreement, your brain automatically has a list of what a disagreement is and what's acceptable. But if I say we're having a fight, now there's new stuff on the table. And all I did was change how something is defined. In your brain, and we don't consciously process that our brain is getting permission to do things because of a category. But if I say, "I've been at war with these people for a long time," now war is way different. Or if I say, like, "I disagree with Rogan," that's one thing. But if I say, "Rogan is a threat," what do we do to something that's a threat, right? We have to neutralize a threat.

Right.

So just small words like that change what our brain says is permissible in that moment. And that is really what's going on here. So actually two layers, if I can go into this for a second.

Sure.

Number one is this category. Let me just get a category out there to make your brain think one thing is permissible. The second thing is I create the idea in such a way that you get to feel morally superior for adopting it, and you don't have to have any new morals or anything else. You just have to adopt this idea and you you get to feel better than other people, and that's it. So it changed the category. It means like I can do something differently. So in a legal argument, if somebody says we're at war with the other side, this is my opponent instead of the other person. What do we do with an opponent? We have to take them down. It's a fight. There's a winner, there's a loser. There's always assumed competition there. So that is one of the biggest So things that I hope everybody can look out for as the influence psyops expert, and I'm not immune to any of this stuff. I buy stupid shit off of an Instagram ad as much as the next person, but it's important to know when something is clearly presented to you and it's easy to feel emotional about it, you are being manipulated.

Yeah. Something clearly presented and it's just like, here's this one thing and it's really clean and it's easy to get pissed off about or it's easy to feel comfortable about, whatever it is. If the emotional thing is easy without having to dig into it, you're being manipulated.

And that's a giant percentage of what most people consume.

It's, yeah.

All day long.

Yeah. And it's compounding. So if I just consume a little bit, that's one thing. But now I get a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit further into this rabbit hole. And we get in these— obviously everyone says this online, but you get into these echo chamber of social media. All of a sudden you can find your people anywhere. You can connect with your people. If you'd like to make knitted yarn vest for hamsters, you can find other people that do shit like that. So back in the day, if you had a bad idea, you couldn't find a lot of other people that agreed with you. And now it's easier to find people to agree with you when you have a shitty idea. So there's a niche. There's a whole separate niche. And on top, while you're there getting told that your ideas are relevant and normal, They're not abnormal because there's so many other people. It normalizes bad ideas. The second part of that is I'm with all these people, but then I go back to normal social media, and all I get told all day is I'm right about those people.

I'm right about those people. I'm right about those people. And it's just— it is so sick, and— which goes back to what we were first talking about, how performative our world is and, like, how all of us conceal the shame so much that we can't ever be seen by anybody. Like, we'll go to the grave and feel like my wife has never even seen who I truly am. You know?

And then the other thing that's nuts is people have this complete inability to admit when they're wrong or change course. They have connected themselves, they've connected their whole being to whatever their thoughts are, whatever this thing that they've agreed is real. And once they've defended it, it. They never want to go back and objectively look at it and go, wait a minute. Oh, I believe this and that's not the case. Oh, this is the case. Oh, I'm wrong. Oh no, I gotta, I gotta course correct. No, they dig in and they try to find other echo chambers that agree with their initial position and other people that— and there's plenty of people that provide those services for you. Plenty of people. If you want to live in your echo chamber, plenty of people, real and digital, that will provide you this escape from your ability to learn and grow.

And a sycophantic AI will do— will help you with that too.

Oh, they're the best. They'll tell you, "You're wonderful, darling. You're doing the best." I always tell people, "You're not your ideas," and it's one of the most important things that I've ever learned. You cannot be married to your ideas. Your ideas are just ideas, and as soon as you defend them. And as soon as you connect yourself to them, as soon as you connect your identity to them, you're in a fucking trap. You're in a real trap, and it's very hard to get out without admitting defeat. Most people don't want to admit defeat, and that's how they look at it. They look at it— it's like a battle for their existential existence. Their existence is completely tied into their belief system.

Yeah. And we call that cognitive dissonance, right? So I either have to say I'm a dumbass or those other people are stupid.

Right.

So like when Biden won the election, it was the same thing. People on the right either had to admit, wow, I'm stupid and I underestimated what our country's doing, or the other people are just idiots and they don't know what's going on. Same thing happened when Trump got elected. Either like the whole country is stupid or I have to admit that I didn't know what was going on and I'm out of touch a little bit. And maybe there is something good, I will just say they are all stupid. Protecting our identity is so ingrained into us. It is the ego thing.

Yeah.

Like I don't want to be wrong, and if I am wrong and I am wrong in public, then I risk ostracism again. So it is like getting kicked out of the tribe again. It is going back to the same fear.

And people love to do that, too. They love to attack people. If they're wrong, love to destroy people and ruin all credibility that they've ever had. You could have been a public figure for 10 years putting out great information, you fuck one thing up, people wanna ban you forever, especially if you don't admit it, especially.

Oh, you're running for office? What about that you took a nude when you were 19? You took a naked photo. What the fuck? And that goes back to everyone's pretending like everyone else has got their shit figured out, and that's why everyone thinks everybody's got it figured out and I'm pretending. I'm the one hiding everything.

Yep.

Everyone's got that shit. Everyone who thinks like, "Oh, they're gonna find out my skeleton," everybody's got skeletons in their closet. Everybody's got stuff like that. And we're in the age where we're comparing ourselves to highlight reels, and Dr. Phil talks about this all the time. But we have to realize that there is— people want you to be human. And we don't enjoy fake shit. This is why people are attracted to your podcast. This is why stuff that's real is trending so much more now. Like, we're attracted to things that are human and flawed. That's why we buy shit that says handmade on it. We don't buy, like, oh, machine-made. Made. No one celebrates that, right?

Right.

We like the humanness of things. And even when I say there's a loneliness epidemic going on right now, everyone will nod their head and no one will raise their hand. Everyone will say, "Oh yeah, it's affecting all those people," but no one will say, "It's affecting me." But they'll all nod along. I think we're getting to a place where maybe we're coming out of that. I just, maybe it's me, maybe it's my echo chamber, but I feel like people are waking up. I feel like more people, not just through COVID, but just now, just the way the world is, they're like, "You know what? This doesn't really feel, it doesn't really, it feels weird for me to hate and feel hatred towards one of my neighbors who didn't vote like I did. That feels weird." Yeah. Just to hate someone for that reason. I think people are waking up. That maybe the plan is going too fast. Maybe they're taking it too quickly. They're trying to go through all these steps too fast. It's what it feels like to me.

Well, also, I don't think they're competent. I don't think they're good at it. And that's part of the problem.

Good at what?

Good at projecting narratives. I don't think the people that are necessarily in charge of propaganda, at least people at a government level, I don't think they're particularly slick. No. And that's part of the problem with all this.

It's like when you're at a middle school sleepover and the dad comes in trying to be cool. It's like, "Hey kids, what are you guys doing?" That's the government trying to run this shit. This is when you get syringes dancing on stage on a late-night TV show.

Right. That was nuts.

Yeah.

Well, it's also a person who seems completely insincere.

Yeah.

That version of him It's weird because the version of him that was on The Daily Show was awesome. Like, it was this character.

And irreverent.

Yeah.

And he was raw and irreverent.

Yeah. But you realize, oh, that was just really good writers.

Yeah.

They have really good writers that created a fun Republican character that was a buffoon, but like a hilarious buffoon.

Yeah.

And then he went and did a TV show and you're like, Oh, the real you is weird.

Yeah. But I think our saving grace is what you're talking about, is that they suck at this.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Like, when your teacher announces there's gonna be a pizza party and expects everybody to be super freaking out about it, like, yeah, it's pizza. But the government's like, hey, guess what we got for you?

Yeah.

We got this new data coming out, this new data.— and the psyops are working less because of the spread of information. So people say, "Oh, social media is bad. You shouldn't be on social media." Well, some of that is what's exposing this stuff.

Yes.

And we have people out there that are like you, and I'm not kissing your ass here, but you're willing to say shit that sounds preposterous at the beginning of something and just make an observation that's real. And you're willing to just— the way that I phrase this in a lot of our training at my training is called NCI. The way that we phrase this is like the first ingredient of confidence is the willingness to receive social injury. And we need more of that. We need more people willing to receive social injury.

Well, the position that I was in during the COVID thing was very unique, so it was almost easy for me because I had already— I'd gotten such a head start. I was so far ahead of them, they didn't realize that my ability to say, "Wait, this— this doesn't make any sense. Like, none of this makes any sense. And also, why am I green? And also, why are you guys lying? Why are you lying about all sorts of different things? Why— why are you measuring troponin levels when you're talking about myocarditis and not the actual scans of people's hearts when you realize like young people are getting legitimately fucked up from this vaccine? Not all of them, but some of them. Why aren't you looking at that? How come you guys aren't looking at vaccine injuries? It seems like a significant thing that people are talking about. You got soccer players dropping dead in the middle of the field and no one's bringing that up? You're trying to gaslight us into thinking that that doesn't make any sense? I was in a unique position to be able to do that. That, because I had like almost like quietly snuck up to this and had this large audience that they weren't aware of.

Yeah.

So when it happened, it was just, it was just like I couldn't do anything other than what I did. I had to just keep doing it the way I did it. And it was, the blowback was crazy. They tried to crush my sponsors. Organized campaigns. There was PACs involved. It was—

Really?

Oh yeah, oh yeah. Thank God I was on Spotify, and thank God Spotify is not an American company. And also it helped that I was number 1 in like 90 countries and not number 90 in one country. You know, that helped. Yeah, that helped a lot. The size of it was— it was like, it was so big that as big as they were, they're like Oh, like, and then there's the Streisand thing. Like, you try to silence something, you're just gonna make it bigger. If I went to— if they kicked me off of Spotify and I had to go to Rumble, it would have just blown Rumble stock up and it would have helped everybody.

Yeah, I didn't know that there was that much shit going on in your life.

Oh, I can't even talk about it, but there was presidents involved and former presidents involved that were contacting Spotify. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, trying to get me removed for vaccine misinformation.

Yeah. Wow.

It turned out to be right. All of it. Not a single fucking apologize.

Interviewing the dude that invented mRNA.

Oh yeah.

And the most published doctor in his field.

Not a single apology. Not a single apology from anybody. Not a single retraction. Not a single, you know, mea culpa. Not a single, we were wrong. And, you know, I lost a lot of sponsors. I lost a lot during those days. It was interesting. There was a time where it was working.

Wow.

Yeah.

I didn't know there was that much coordination. Oh, there was a lot of coordination.

People are gonna be pissed off at Joe. I don't talk about it too much 'cause it's pretty deep. It was nuts, but it didn't work. Right? But they tried. And they tried it hard. They spent a lot of money. A lot of money. It wasn't a small amount of money. It wasn't a small amount of people. It was a lot of people and a lot of money.

Good Lord.

Yeah. That part was spooky. But the turning my face green was hilarious. That didn't bother me at all.

It's good.

It's also— I'm a comedian. You know what I mean? Like, I'm a shit-talker. Like, that's what I do. If you talk shit to me, it's like you're not gonna hurt my feelings that much. It's like I'm used to it. It's normal. It's a part of the game that I play. So, you know, especially if you're doing it and there's a video that's the real video that's available for anybody that goes on my Instagram page, like, fucking retards. Like, what are you doing? It is crazy. Stupid checker move. It's so dumb.

And I think that I think that what we see as authority hasn't changed in 200,000 years, but I think that what we consider to be social authority has been modified, just kind of in the human side of things.

Yeah.

Like it used to be, oh, this guy's got a suit and tie on. Now all these CEOs are wearing a hoodie or a t-shirt or something.

Mm-hmm.

Like the visual definition of authority has changed. And the social definition of authority has started to change now. Where it used to be mainstream news, and now we're moving into like a post-news era of something. I don't know what the next thing's gonna be.

Well, I mean, what Elon always says is, "You are the news now." And the rise of independent journalists and what you have, what you're selling, what is your currency is authenticity. And honesty.

Yeah.

And as long as you don't break from that, as long as people don't find out, oh, he's secretly getting all this money from AIPAC, he's secretly getting all this money from Russia, secretly getting all this money, and you know, oh, there's meetings where they've had— where they've told people what narratives to push, and then you see people on Twitter that are, you know, supposedly new influencers, and then you see them almost cut and paste the exact same message over and over again. And then you find out, oh, there's actual campaigns where you're paid large sums of money. If you have a large following, large sums of money, like significant amount of money to be a person who pushes narratives online, that's your job. You are literally a paid propagandist. And once people find that out, you're gonna lose a lot of your people that are paying attention to you, that take you seriously. But there's gonna be enough that don't know about it, that just see the tweet and like, oh my God, is that true? Yeah. True. Yeah, like, oh my God, that's crazy. Enough casuals where you're gonna get some traction, but you have sacrificed the one thing that you need to survive in this environment, and that's authenticity and honesty.

If you don't have those two things, you're fucked, because when the mind-reading software gets uploaded and everybody knows— you and me will be all right. Yeah. They would probably look in some of our brains and go, dude, you're fucked up. But you're fucked up too. Everybody's fucked up. We're all fucked up. It's like, how do you behave? What do you do? How do you manage your fucked-up-edness? What do you do? What do you do with your time? What do you do with your life?

Yeah.

We're gonna know. We're gonna know.

Yeah.

And we're gonna know a lot of people online are just demons. They're just demons, like in the real sense of the term. Like if you, if you thought of What if you had a demon? And if you were a demon, if actual demons were real, what would they be doing? What would they be doing? Well, they would most certainly be trying to ruin people's lives. They would most certainly be trying to spread hate, spread misinformation, confuse people.

Get you to compare yourself to other people.

Oh yeah, destroy you psychologically, get you to take medications that you don't Make you think that you're not enough. Yeah, yeah. Make you think you're not enough. Take money to— and sacrifice other people's health and safety just for whatever financial compensation you've got, you've been given to push a narrative.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's demonic.

And it's separation. All of that is like, you are separate from these people. They don't matter. You shouldn't care about them. You are separate. They are different things. You're not connected. You're not the same thing.

And that's how people justify bombing. Yeah. You know, that's how people justify war. That's how people justify all sorts of horrific behavior that human beings still engage in. What did George Carlin say?

I think he said, "Conspiracy's not required when interests all align." Right.

That's a great quote.

Yeah.

That's a great quote.

He had so many bangers. He said, "It's a big fucking club." Yep, and you're not in it. And you're not in it.

He had so many bangers. Yeah, he did. But there's a few people that are in the club. That's what's interesting. You know, it's a few people that get in that fucking club, and you know, and then also their opinions change.

Yeah.

Also, they soften up on stances, or they get killed on a campus.

Have you had somebody on your show that you thought was compromised?

Oh yeah.

You don't have to name names, but—

Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. I've had people on my show that I guarantee are here to try to push a narrative. Yeah, 100%, no doubt.— and my own, you know, my— it's— I think in some cases it's obvious, and my job is to just keep them talking and let the internet do its job.

Can I teach you a tactic right now?

Sure.

That will be good for these people?

Fuck yeah.

All right, how much time do we have?

We got time.

Okay. All right, so this is a CIA method called elicitation, and it was invented by this guy John Nolan, and, uh— So the basic premise is you're gonna get more— the more sensitive information you need out of a person, the less questions you should be asking. So here's how it works. You can get sensitive information out of people better with statements than questions. So there's a few different types of these statements. So the first one is called a provocative statement. And a provocative statement is just making a commentary on what somebody said. What I said. So let's say I just went through X and Y and Z and you're like, "So, so basically," and then you kind of recap what I said.

Right.

And so, "No question," and then I'll kind of, "Yeah, and," so I'll kind of, I'll keep giving you a little bit more information. The second is triggering a need to correct the record. So let's say you and I are in a grocery store and I say, "Joe," let's say you don't get recognized Let's say, go over there, I want you to, within 60 seconds, I want you to find out how much the girl that's stocking the shelf over there makes per hour. So you might go over there and be like, "Hey, how much do you make an hour?" But instantly you're weird, and that feels like an interrogation, right? But if you went over there and you said, "Hey, I just read this article, everybody that works at Whole Foods got bumped up to $26 an hour. That's fantastic, congratulations." And she's like, "What?" Hahaha. We only make $22,000. And now she doesn't feel interrogated.

Mm.

And the answer came from correcting the record. Does that make sense?

Yes.

So now you're not a weirdo who's asking how much she makes.

Yeah.

So now you got the sensitive information and it felt like it was just a flowing conversation. So the third is disbelief. So somebody says something and you don't get Jamie to pull up anything. But the disbelief is like they say, "Oh, and I've even worked with X and Y and Z. I've done this one thing." And you're like, "What? There is no way. That just sounds impossible." And then they're like, "No, no, and..." And they'll keep going because there wasn't a question. So imagine if someone started telling you something sensitive and you're like, "Yeah, tell me more. Tell me more about that." Mm-hmm. It seems like you're kind of wanting to pull things about. So the more that you can use statements, the more they're just going to keep feeling completely comfortable giving you stuff.

What's interesting is I don't know those methods, but I do all 3 of those.

You do a lot of that stuff.

Yeah.

I just wanted you to be able to consciously grab onto it.

I just do it instinctively.

Yeah, I've seen you do it many times.

When I smell bullshit, my instinct is going, hold on, so what you're saying is— and you just give a touch of incredulity, just a little bit a little bit of skepticism.

Yeah.

And then allow them to kind of like expand on it and go, okay, so you're saying that this— all right, so are you sure that that's the case? Because a lot of people think this. No, no, no. I'm— and I do it sort of naturally.

Yeah.

Because the most important thing is to listen as much as possible and keep them talking and don't interrupt too much. But sometimes you have to. Sometimes you have to go like, you're pushing— hold on, this is horseshit. Like, this is like— I'm gonna get grilled for this online if I don't like stop this right dead in its tracks, because I know and you know that you're lying.

Yeah.

So let's— and then, but you also got to like keep them on the hook.

Yeah.

So like, you don't want to submit them yet. You gotta like, oh, look, he got out of the armbar. Crazy.

And a couple of those, you make them correct you, and you also say, "Well, that had to be challenging," or "That sounds fascinating." And just those tiny little comments that just kind of keep them pulling along. The Russians did this to America during the Cold War. A submarine would pull into Singapore or Thailand or something, and one of the— some KGB guy would go up, and there's some 19-year-old sailor at a bar, and say, "Well, we just Russia already has all these specs, and it's amazing that Russian submarines are faster than US submarines because our propellers are 19 feet wide. And the sailor's like, "Yeah, ours are 21." Like, just correcting the record, just a tiny little thing, correcting the record, and some 19-year-old kid gives away top secret information in 35 seconds.

Wow.

So that's where this stuff came about. —when you're like a—if you work in the nuclear field, you have a top-secret clearance, you have to go through anti-elicitation training before you leave the country and go spend time with some foreign national company.

God, I would hope so.

Yeah, and you know what the number one thing in the first day of counterintelligence school, the first thing they say is, "If you're a 4 and she's a 10 and she's interested in you, she's a spy." That is the, the most primal and effective of all tactics is hot women. It is.

And also we see with James O'Keefe, chatty gay guys. You see a lot of like hot guys.

Yes.

Yeah, you get chatty gay guys give up a lot of data.

Yeah.

They give up a lot of fucking information.

Way more than I would ever think.

Oh, it seems like the chatty gay guys are worse even than the guys that are trying to impress the women. Women.

Yeah.

Yeah. I wonder how far they have to go. I wonder how many guys they have to sleep with.

I don't want to know.

I wonder— I mean, for sure there's been a straight guy or two, unless they recruit gay guys for the job, you know, because gay guys wouldn't feel nearly as bad for having sex with another gay guy to get information out of them, I think, than a woman would. A woman would feel like a whore. You know, a man who fucks some other guy that he'd probably fuck anyway. [LAUGHTER] It's probably no big deal. You know? Guys don't feel as bad about that.

And have you ever read Red Queen?

No.

It's about biological behavior. It talks about, like, adultery in females occurs during ovulation most of the time.

Really?

Fascinating stuff in there. But one of them was that women are reluctant about sexual activity because they face the risk of raising a child alone.

Mm.

And it's not a conscious thing, but like there's some biological driver that says, if I am not careful here, I'm gonna be stuck with this child alone. And 200,000 years ago, if someone abandons you and you're pregnant, and then you're raising a child on your own, you're kind of off the market. And no one's bringing you meat. No one's bringing you fish out of the river and all this kind of stuff. So I thought that was interesting, and that may be one of the reasons that it might be easier for dudes to go do something like that.

Yeah, well, we'd have to ask James. There's got to be a reason. Well, it's also, I think, especially in politics, there's a large amount of in-the-closet gay guys. That are in all sorts of levels of politics, all sorts of levels of government.

Yeah, I have no doubt.

Yeah.

I think it's been that way since Rome, though.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a very peculiar kind of person in the first place that wants to control all the other people.

Yeah, well, you know the difference between today and Rome is the concealment of the shame about it. And I think most people don't know the difference between shame and guilt. I think that shame is a destructive force. There's nothing good about it. There's nothing positive about it. Guilt is focused on understanding the behavior, and shame is focused on the person, the identity of the person who did it. And there's nothing productive about beating the shit out of yourself emotionally. Does not make the other person who you've harmed any better.

Mm.

It doesn't make the world any better. It's a downer. I made a video on my YouTube channel basically giving a review and a tutorial of planet Earth as if it was a video game. And like—

What's that video called?

I think it's called "Earth is a Game." Ooh. So it's basically like a 20-minute, like, without breaking character, like I'm giving a review. I'm actually in the game right now and I'm making a tutorial and a review of this video game. That we call Earth. And one of the things I said in the video is the developers don't tell you what the main goals are of the game. Like, how do I get on the leaderboard? What's the way that— how do you win? And we went through like 10 different metrics, but at the end of the day, I think what gets you on the leaderboard is were you an upward force on most people's lives that you encountered? Did you leave people better than you found them? Found them. And that's about it. That's about fucking it.

Wow.

It's like, am I a downward force on other people? Am I pushing people down constantly? Or am I just doing something else? And you remember, like, the moment you launch into DMT, you're like, oh my God, I was worried about taxes? I'm 17 black holes away and I was worried about my I-9 form. Right.

I thought that was such a big deal.

And it's the same thing that people— I think if you want to learn the number one— and this is my rambling, but the number one lesson I think most people can learn is from people that are dying. People on their deathbed. There's no better book you could read about how to master this game, about how to get good at Earth, is reading the regrets of dying people. Because there's so much clarity at these moments where you know you're gonna die. Like, "Oh my God, I thought all this shit. I thought that Lexus, I thought I had to get the Lexus. I had to impress everybody at the country club who didn't give a shit about me. And I didn't spend time with my grandkids. I didn't spend time with my kids." Like, everything gets so crystal clear in those moments that I think those are the best books in the world. Like, you've written— I think there's a lot of nurses that work in hospice that write, like, collect a lot of these things. Yeah. There's so much perspective on what we think is so important, and then at that moment, like, oh my God, I can't believe I prioritized all that shit.

Absolutely. I think this is a perfect way to end this.

Yeah, man.

That was awesome. Thank you very much. Okay, so Station One, is that what it is?

Yeah.

Channel One or Station One? Station One. Station One on YouTube.

Yep.

And then your show is, what's the channel?

Or Chase Hughes on YouTube.

Chase Hughes and Station One. Yeah. Thank you very much, man. Really appreciate it.

Thanks, Joe.

It's awesome. It's really, really good stuff.

Thanks, man.

Thank you. All right, bye everybody. See ya.