Transcript of South Beach Sessions - Cenk Uygur

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I feel like I'm looking in a mirror here a little bit. There's some similarities in this story and my story. Uh, Cenk, Yuger is a media titan. He made a media company out of magic, hard work, and nothing. And I don't know how he did it, but part of the reason that we're here is to find out. The Young Turks is, you could find TYT on Twitch, you could find it on all his social media channels, giant following, and it's The Young Turks on YouTube. Welcome, thank you for being with us.

Thank you, Dan, I appreciate it. Yeah, the TYT is the network and it's got 24-hour channels on like Amazon Prime and YouTube TV, Samsung, LG, etc.

You say that very casually, as if you meant it and you knew that was going to happen all along. That's not how it happened at all, is it?

No, no. And Young Turks is the flagship show. So yeah, no, we started in my living room, actually very close to here, about a mile from here, right off of Sunset. And it was me and Ben Mankiewicz, and every once in a while I got like a the tiniest celebrity guest, Joey Tata. If you remember him, he ran the Peach Pit in Beverly Hills, 90210. So he comes into my living room in a one-bedroom crappy apartment in Sunset, and he's like, oh, so this is where I die.

Right.

That's because it was like literally like rundown place. Eventually I moved because somebody got stabbed there and there was blood on the hallway. So that's where we started The Young Turks, me and Ben with just 2 mics like this going talking on Sirius Satellite Radio. And then we just built it and built it and built it.

Well, but hold on, let's go back before that. You're in law, and are you happy in law? Are you unsatisfied? Is it not what you expected?

So, um, I'm an immigrant. I came when I was 8 years old, uh, and so I have immigrant parents who are like, we get good education, we go, we become corporate lawyer, then corporate CEO. Okay, so that's the thing my dad could wrap his head around, and that's what he grew up idolizing as like the top of the top in America. So he really wanted me to go to business school. school. So undergrad, I went to Wharton, and then for— they really wanted me to go to law school, and being a good immigrant son, I went to law school. I went to Columbia. And then so right now, at that point, we're riding high, and the Turkish community is like, attaboy, way to go! And I got a nice office in DC, a block and a half from the White House overlooking a park. It was amazing. And I go, uh, except I think I want to be a talk show host. And then that's when my parents, the entire Turkish community is like, no, don't, don't, right?

No.

And so I was a lawyer for about 7 months and then went back a couple years later to do 2 more months just to make money as an entertainment lawyer. But I hated it. I despised it. I wanted to leave it as soon as I could for 3 reasons. One is it is moral issues, and, you know, lawyers make peace with that, but I couldn't. So we were doing corporate officers and directors liability litigation. What that means is when CEOs screw people over. Our job was to defend them. And our clients were just the worst of the worst, to be honest. I was like, I can't— one of the guys ripped off Adrian Danley. That's the case that I asked, I said, I can't do it. Can I, can I get out of this case? And partner was like, yeah, I get it. I get it. Right? Like, he lost all of his money, this guy.

Right?

But he's like, you know, you're a lawyer. And I thought in my head, not for long. Okay, so I just couldn't do it.

But were you just doing what your parents wanted? Like, this is common to the immigrant tale where chase the safe paths— architect, doctor, lawyer, you know, engineer. That my father wanted me to be an engineer. That's what he wanted because those are the— those offer safe paths. But I, like you, had a creative bent and some of those things— I was bad at math. I didn't like science. So I wasn't good at some of the things I needed to be good at to to be the thing that my father wanted me to be.

Yeah, so I tell this sometimes in front of different sets of immigrant communities and it really resonates, but in Turkey there's only 4 professions, okay? There's businessman, lawyer, doctor, engineer. Period. There is no 5th profession. And so when I try to explain to my great uncle, who was like the elder of the family back in Istanbul, that I was a radio talk show host at the time, He just couldn't understand. He's like, what is that? What does that mean? Do you make any money? What? And then I explained, well, it's kind of entertainment. And, you know, we are sometimes serious, but sometimes we joke around. He's like, oh, I get it. You're a pagliaccio, a clown. And I'm like, well, I wouldn't describe it that way, but I get it. Yeah, it's entertainment. And then of course, Turks being what they are, he's like, does it make good money? And I was like, well, it makes okay money. He's like, okay, good enough.

Okay, so— So this was the conversation around our dinner table growing up. I told my father, who was always fighting with his bosses, that I wanted to do something that I enjoyed and that made a decent amount of money. And he's like, good luck with that, kid. Like, it wasn't something that he thought was possible, but I wasn't thinking a whole lot about money when I started chasing it. Take me back a little bit though, going back to the beginning. When you come to America, you're thinking it's what?

Oh, so I was 8, so I didn't— it didn't dawn on me that we were really gonna stay. Because you go into the mind of a small child like that, you're so used to what you grew up with, it just seems unimaginable that I'm on a different planet now. Like, America was so different than Istanbul. And so about 2 weeks in, I woke up in the middle of the night sobbing. Okay. And I remember going to the top of the stairs and then my dad came out. and put his arm around me and started talking to me. And I said, Dad, I thought we were going to go back. I thought that this was like a magical kind of experience in this wondrous land, but that we were going to go back and, and, you know, I was going to see my friends and family that I grew up with. And he's like, no, no, no, we're staying. And that's when it really sunk in for me. And so as a little immigrant kid, there's 2 diverging things in your head. One is you kind of can't believe that your life has changed so much, right?

And so you always miss, you know, not just friends and family. And I had a lot of friends and family that I grew up with, cousins, and we had a really tight circle of friends even at that age. I'm still friends with them at this age, so that's how deep the relationships were. And, uh, and you miss the food, you miss the culture, etc. On the other hand, you get to America, and my experience was, oh my God, this place is gorgeous. This can't be real, right? So we go to my elementary school in East Brunswick, New Jersey, where I grew up, and there's like 2 baseball fields and a soccer field. And I'm like, is this the richest elementary school in the country? And they're like, no, it's a really normal one. And I'm like, wow. Because in Turkey, the only soccer field that like was a real official size soccer field that wasn't a stadium, right, was at Bosphorus University. And we thought it was like, that's the top school in Istanbul. And we thought like, wow, look at that, they got a whole soccer field. And I come here and everybody's got a soccer field.

They've got 2 soccer fields, 3 soccer fields at the junior high and at the high school. Then you get, you know, Istanbul's a big city, so you grew up mainly in concrete jungle, right? And I grew up in an apartment building and the apartments are tiny. We come here and my dad built a business in Turkey, sold it, And we get a normal house in the suburbs in East Brunswick. But to me, that's not a normal house in the suburbs. That's a castle, right? I'm like, so how many families live with us here? And they're like, no, no, it's just you guys. I'm like, this giant house with all of these rooms and a thing called a basement and, and this enormous tract of grass. Because remember, there's like, when you're growing up in a city, there's almost no grass. So I'm like, this grass is ours? I can play soccer all day long with my friends here? Didn't realize, uh, until later that you also have to mow that lawn.

But were you growing up middle class in America? Because you had money and the family had money, right?

And yeah, no, no. So that's a good question. So, um, my dad's side of the family was dirt poor. He was born into a house with no electricity. Classic immigrant story. Like, they didn't have a refrigerator. They had to make their food fresh every day, right? And so he had nothing on top of nothing. He literally has separated the wheat from the chaff because he was a farmer, right? And he's like, I wouldn't recommend it. It's a real pain in the ass. And in fact, my uncle got him to get off the farm by saying, hey, I found this magical thing called college. And instead of working your ass off on this farm for the rest of your life, you could work hard in school and then get a nice car and a house and a hot wife. And my dad's like, ooh, that sounds good, right? Hard worker to begin with, goes in that direction. But born absolutely poor. My mom's side was a little bit wealthier within the context of southeastern Turkey, right, in the little town that they grew up with. But my dad, uh, goes, gets in, studies his ass off, gets into the top, uh, mechanical engineering university, top engineering university in Istanbul.

And so what was amazing about that, Dan, is that back then Turkey had free college.

Okay.

So we can't afford free college in the richest nation on Earth here. But Turkey in the 1960s could. And what it did was it took all these really bright kids who had no money or were middle class in Turkey and elevated them. And all of a sudden they all started running their own companies. So my dad, instead of getting a job, which was totally reckless, built his own company. So there's a million great stories about that. Like, he— this is— my wife is from Taiwan and it doesn't match Chinese culture and it kind of wigs her out. But like, Turks are go-getters. We're like number 1 per capita in entrepreneurs. Number— America's number 2, and we're— and Turkey's like pretty distant above America. So everybody wants to be their own boss. It's that old-school Ottoman mentality, you know, run the place, etc. So my dad, uh, asks around to everyone, hey, uh, do you need anything? Do you need anything? And finally gets this call. Uh, as it turns out, we need giant magnets. And my dad's response to that is, what a lucky break, I make giant magnets. And then my wife is like, but he doesn't.

So what did he do next? I'm like, he figured it out. He figured out how to make giant magnets and then spring machines and then other kinds of machines. And so he built up a nice size company. And back then in '78, there's real right-left conflict. So the communists write on the wall, we're gonna kill you, you capitalist pig. And he's like, capitalist pig? I was on the farm like a minute ago.

Right?

But he doesn't like any safety issues. So he's like, and he loved America. He always wanted us to bring, to come to America because he'd done his graduate school work here. So he's like, pack your bags, let's go. So when we get here, we have enough to afford, uh, you know, a good house in the suburbs, not like anything spectacular, but like what you'd see in Stranger Things, right? Classic American upbringing and middle class. And then my dad had enough money to buy a 5-story building in Eatontown, New Jersey, and it was only 25% full. And for the next 30 years, he turned that into the thing that we made our living out of and has built, you know, the foundation that we built our family on. Got it to 100% occupancy. Actually, at one point got it to like 105% occupancy. Started selling advertising space in the elevators, started selling space in the closets, right? And, and so He just kind of built a second business by hand here. And I used to go work in construction there. I probably shouldn't say, but at the age of 12, we'd carry sheetrock up 5 flights of stairs and learned a work ethic, right?

Is that where you learned it from, from your parents?

Oh, definitely. So both my parents are entrepreneurs. Get into my mom later. And they're both incredibly driven. You just can't stop them. So they passed that on to me. And my dad's work ethic was legendary.

What are the examples, not necessarily of his legendary work ethic, but how it was passed on to you. Like, what, what did the discipline look like? Are you watching, or is it because they're being hardasses?

Yeah, so number one, you see by example. My dad's constantly working and trying to provide for the family and has a sense of responsibility that's so complete that it's unquestioned, that you see the man of the household earns a living and provides for his family. And he does whatever he has to do and works as hard as he needs to do.

Makes giant magnets.

Yeah. If you need giant magnets, I'm your guy. I'm going to make that so my family can eat. Right. So he was the best role model I could imagine. Then when it comes to me and how did he pass on those kinds of values? One, through example, but 2, like I would get a 98 on a test and my dad would say, what happened to the other 2 points?

Okay. That is exactly what happened with my father. I ran away from home because I brought home all A's and all he did was ask about the B. Like, uh, I, I was 35 years old. No, I was, uh, I was like 11 years old and I just ran away from home because I'm like, what is this? Like, how can this be the standard? I bring home A, B, and that's the consequence to it.

Yeah. So, but Dan, I hear you. And my sister had a similar reaction that you did. I had a little bit different reaction. My reaction was subconsciously, I realized later, oh, my dad thinks I can get 100 on every test. My dad thinks that there isn't anyone who is going to do better than I am. Like, he, he believes in me 100%. So that affected me a lot. That gave me a ton of confidence. And so, so, and there was no end to it. You're right. Like, I'd get 100 and he goes, so there was no extra credit, right? I got into Wharton and he's like, but it wasn't Harvard, right? So, and to this day, he, he's like, you know, if you work harder, you could have gone Harvard. I'm like, Dad, It's okay. We were fine. We made it. Right.

Well, how good is he about expressing pride? Like how good? Uh, 'cause you, you were obviously fighting to earn it, right?

Yeah. And then, you know, when you become a renegade and that makes it sound cool, but it does— it's not cool in the beginning at all. You drop out of everything and become a starving talk show host. Um, well, that's when you find out, you know, where people's heads really are. Right. So at first my dad is totally unused to that idea and is just blown away by it. And like media, what in the world? Right.

Well, but you'd also, you were on the path they'd set out for you. You were succeeding on that path. What are you doing? Are you crazy?

Yeah, absolutely. And so I got asked, um, I don't know, hundreds of times, um, am I crazy? Like, and remember, Dan, there's one other factor since I went to those good schools. The culture in those schools is also rule following. Okay, you move up the corporate ladder, you do what you're supposed to do, you move up the law firm ladder, and you follow the rules. Those people are— those kids who go to those schools are the best in the business at following rules. Here I come violating all the rules, breaking all the rules, and they're like, you're crazy. The Turkish immigrants are like, you're crazy. So I didn't realize how much that affected me till later. that I had, I went through about 30 years of everyone I know saying I'm crazy and wrong. And so what I explained to my dad was, no, dad, look, if you look at it, just even from a strictly a business perspective, I'm a guy who's not going to be able to stop myself from setting up a business. So I'm not going in here, like, hoping that I become like an actor or a radio DJ or something.

No, no, no. I'm trying to set up a media company. Right? That was my goal from day one. Okay. And I said, the most valuable thing in America— I said this when I was 20 years old, okay, to my dad— is a name. If you build a name that has value, okay, Coca-Cola is a name, Nike is a name, uh, the Dallas Cowboys are a name, and Donald Trump is a name, right? And those things have value. And from a business perspective, you can see how we can create value here. And then I had the thesis back in 1998 that online video was gonna beat television. And if you started in online video in the beginning, you would get to basically take billions of dollars of value away from television without having to spend that money because I've got to figure out a way—

Well, but where'd that come from though? Like, how did you know that in 1998? Because the next year you're at Whammy in Miami, which isn't exactly an internet hotbed. It's just a starting radio station on Lincoln Road in Miami. Like, where does the thought come from in 1998 that that's something that I can see the future? Yeah.

So I'll get to that in one second, but just to finish up the thought on my dad. So I go and tell him all this stuff and he's super uncomfortable with it, but then he says, okay, this is what you want. So let's go do it. Okay. And when I go start The Young Turks, he's the first one to put money in, the first one to back me and my mom. My mom was wonderfully supportive. Right. So at the end of the day, they rally around their kids. They do the right thing because they're wonderful people. and they wanted us to have an opportunity. And so he's like, if this is the thing you want the opportunity in, this is what I worked my life for, so go.

But is it because though, they've already told you you're crazy a number of different times and you're not letting go of the bone, right?

No, no. And yes, they and everyone else eventually gets the sense, this brother means it.

We're not going to be able to talk him out of it, right?

And my sister told me later, which it didn't sink in Uh, until, yeah, until like I was in my 50s. But, uh, she said, look, Cenk, I thought you were super courageous. Like you took, you did all the things that you were supposed to do as the good child. Right. And you were getting so much credit for it and so much, you know, admiration from all the people that we knew. And you threw all that in the garbage to do the thing that you thought was the right thing to do. She's like, I don't know if I expressed it well enough. I think she did. I just didn't hear it right. 'Cause everybody else was calling me crazy. that, hey, I believe in you. And so, uh, and I think that it's brave what you're doing. And so my core family— sister, fam, uh, mom and dad— by the time they realized I'm not letting this go, were 100% supportive.

But to throw away everything though, and to choose that, like, how uncomfortable was the costume that you were wearing before that?

Yeah, yeah, it was, it was definitely uncomfortable. I mean, it was so uncomfortable I couldn't bear it for 7 months. Right? It's, you know, like in Miami when it gets super humid and it feels like not only is it hot, but they've put this like really thick blanket over you, right? And that's what it felt like. And I couldn't get it off of me until I shook the whole thing off.

But you didn't realize that before the 7 months of experiencing it? Before that, like, what, what, where was your intuition telling you before this, hey, I'm just doing something someone else wants me to do, I'm doing what I'm following my parents' version of my life, not my own.

Yeah. So I kind of knew that. I kind of knew that. So I knew I didn't want to be a corporate lawyer. And I went to law school because I didn't have a better idea. And my dad's like, why don't you just apply to the top 10 and apply to jobs? And if you get a job you like better, great. If you don't get into the top 10, who cares? Then it's not worth going anyway. That's total immigrant mentality, right? And so as it was a good trick, I got into a couple of good schools. And I hated the jobs that I applied for because they were in finance since I went to business school. Right. And so I remember the last question at United Jersey Bank interview after 6 rounds, the guy asks, do you love finance? And I'm like, oh, and I took so long to answer. It was already over by the time I answered. I mean, 5 painful seconds of silence.

Because you didn't want to lie to him.

Yeah. Because I can't lie. I've, I have a ton of trouble lying. I can't spit it out. I can't say I love finance, so I gotta figure out a way to talk around it to the point where I realized I don't love finance. I don't, I don't wanna do that. Right. And so law school seemed benign, like, oh, constitutional law, criminal law. I'm a lot of debates. I kind of loved law school for the actual in-class debates. I didn't love all the reading about civil procedure and torts and contracts that I didn't care about. I remember I went into corporate law. Everybody at Columbia, studies corporate law, like bar none, right? First class, halfway through, I'm like, nah, I can't stand it. I walked out halfway through the first class. And at Wharton, everybody studies finance. Halfway through the first Finance 101, I'm like, ah, I can't bear it, and I leave, right? So that's just not for me. As it turned out, at Penn, I did political science and entrepreneurial management. Hey, turns out that's what I wanted to do, right?

Right.

I found the things that I wanted to do. But I, I, so I shook it. Oh, but it was super hard to shake it. Super hard. But I couldn't help it, Dan. So I did, uh, get out of law school. Don't really know what I want to do. My friends know that. Uh, a friend of mine, Cindy, suggests, hey, why don't you take a Learning Annex course in New York about how to start your own TV show? I'm like, that's mental. Like, you can't start your own TV show. I don't have any money, right? I don't have any connections. My name is Cenk Uygur. I like, there's no way. She's like, look, just take it and see what happens. Cause you're kind of a colorful character. Maybe it makes sense. So that lady says, oh, go to your public access station. This is back in, you know, '95, right? And by law, they have to give you a TV show.

You bought time, right?

No, no. In public access back then, it was like YouTube before YouTube. You just go and you register. And if you want a show, they, by law, they have to give you a show, but you have to go through the training process. You have to learn how to run a camera, how to run the mics. Uh, be a technical director, et cetera. And I left my first day at the law firm early to go do orientation at the public access channel. Okay. So they say, you gotta do X, Y, and Z to get a show, but then we'll give you one. I was like, what? I didn't expect that at all. In fact, they named me The Young Turk back then, singular. Was there like, I had in that form, I had to fill out what's the title of the show. And I didn't expect that they were really gonna give me a show. So I had no idea. So in like 1 minute, I was like, I don't know, back then I'm 25. I'm like, I'm young, I'm Turkish. It kind of means young rebel looking to overthrow the system. All right, I'll go Young Turk.

Right. And that's how it started in that 30 seconds as I was filling out that form. So, but I do the first show eventually. I go through all the training. Uh, Halloween or no, Mischief Night, the night I think before Halloween, uh, in 1995, we do an hour on air with my friends, half politics, half philosophy. They get off there and they're like, I'm pro— I don't know, people probably thought that sucked, right? What do we know? We're not professionals. And I thought, no, I'm doing that the rest of my life. That's it. That's what's for me. I love that. So back to the law firm, I, I've got moral issues with it. I then, once I did the public access show, I'm like, no, that's my calling. That's what I gotta do. That's point number 2. And point number 3 was I gotta get outta here before I get used to the money. Because if I get used to the money, that's a morass you can't get out of. That's a swamp you can't get out of. So I gotta make sure that I stay poor so I can survive the next couple of decades as a starving talk show host.

You knew that?

Yeah. Yeah, I definitely knew that.

You knew already that the money was going to be a contaminant and it would have been quicksand?

Yeah. And I, I've seen people fall into that quicksand 1,000 times. And you can't do it off the side of your table. Right. If you're inside of your desk, if you're going to do something, you got to do it 100%. So I was like, look, if I'm going to try to be a talk show host, it'll be incredibly hard if I do it 100% of the time. It'll be impossible if I do it 25% of the time or 50% of the time.

So when you jumped, are you scared or excited or both? Or—

Sure. Of course I'm both. And of course I'm scared, not so much about the money and what's going to happen at the end. I'm more scared about the social criticism, to be honest. What we've been talking about, everybody saying you're crazy, you're wrong. Have you lost your mind? Is there something wrong with you?

So it's family, Turkish friends, right? It's just social criticism within the very— you're breaking free of the constructs of the shackles of what everyone expected for you.

Exactly. And that right there is the hardest thing in the world. As hard as everything else was after that, it didn't get harder than that.

Surprising that your parents would be supportive there.

Yeah, no, they're wonderful people. They just wanted what's best for me. And they had an idea of what's best.

But I'm not sure that that's what's best for you. Like, as I look back on it, right, my father didn't want me to do some of these things, wanted me to go to Georgia Tech for engineering because it was safer. And as I look back on it now, especially in the state of the media right now, the idea of writing for a living, if a child comes to me and thinks that that's the way to go, it might be in his heart, but it ain't safe.

No, it's definitely not safe. That's why they were against it in the beginning. But once they realized I was all in and they saw me working super hard at it. So I would take the public access shows, I'd turn them into audio tapes, and I sent it to 400 radio stations just to get 2 weekend jobs, one in WRKO and then one at WWRC in Washington, right? So these are big radio stations in Boston and DC, but they were just weekend jobs and fill-in jobs. But they saw me busting my ass trying to get that. And then after that, I took those radio tapes and I sent them to Whammy in Miami, and that was a local television station. And, uh, at that point, I, I think the whole time starting from '98, I'm going to online video. But the way to get to online video is that online video barely even exists at that point. So you are going to get there either through a new form of radio like Sirius Satellite Radio. We wind up becoming their first original talk show. Okay. Back in 2002. Right. Or I'm going to get there Uh, through becoming a host and then waiting for online video to catch up.

So I try to become a host, whether it's on radio or TV. I send my tapes down to Miami because they're doing this amazing different television station. Because I studied, I studied all the broadcasting and cable, all the trade journals, and I'm like, how did Oprah make it? How did Phil Donahue make it? How did Howard Stern make it? So these are the big talk show hosts of the time. And so Howard started on radio and refused to listen to anyone and just did the show that he wanted. And I loved Howard's show growing up, right? So that was a role model in a sense. And then you look at, uh, Phil Donahue and Oprah, the 2 biggest television talk shows at the time, and they both came up through local television and they had their own show. They did what they thought was right with that show and they it grew to national fame. So when Whammy comes around in Miami and they go, they're the only ones in the whole country doing local television, they're like, we're going to start a whole new slate of shows and they're wild shows. There's, you know, trans people on, strippers on, this and the other thing.

The minute I read it in the trade journals, I literally packed my bags that night and told my parents I'm going to Miami and I drove the next morning, 24 hours to Miami until I got to Miami.

You are a little crazy. You are. Like, that's a bit impetuous. Like, you're studying, yes, and you're trying to provide guardrails, but that's not— you're saying that night you're packing your things and you tell your parents, I'm going to Miami, and what are you saying over your shoulder? I'm chasing my dream? Like, what are they— what's happening there?

Yeah, because So Dan, it's crazy but not impetuous. So there was literally—

Packing your bags that night after seeing something and moving to another city is impetuous.

Okay, so I should add one thing so you have a little bit more context. It's not that different, but I had been asking all my, uh, contacts, whatever tiny, tiny contacts I had, hey, where do you think is the best place to go? And a friend had recommended an agent. An agent said, I'm not going to represent you, you got nothing, right? But based on what you're saying, you should go down to Whammy in Miami. So that's why I'd already sent my tape. And then when I read all the details of the type of programming they were doing, I knew that was literally the only television station in the whole country doing it. I know the guys doing traditional TV are not going to hire me. There's no chance of that, right? The only guys who could hire me are these crazy guys on Whammy. So for me, pushing all in on that was a little bit more rational than it looks from the outside. You see, like when you're playing poker and you're short stacked, right? I don't have any other options. So yeah, I don't have— I'm not flying in on American Airlines, but I got a jack-10 suited.

Let me give it my best shot with my short stack.

You've already made, uh, 25 minutes in here, you've already made a couple of gambling references that suggest to me that you're a gambler at heart though. So it might not be— it might be clinically leveraged statistical probabilities that you're playing, but you're still Yes, that is definitely right. And also, my agent, uh, who was an exceptional— is an exceptional sports agent, told me at the very beginning— I refused. I was CAA's worst client for a long time because I simply refused to leave Miami, refused to leave Miami. And he told me at every turn, you can't build media stuff in Miami. It's not possible. You can't get the people you need. You can't— there's just not the infrastructure that you need. Miami is not the place to start a media career. It's just— it just isn't. It's not a— it's not a wise Wise gamble, but you're saying you knew before that that digital was going to explode. How? Why?

Yeah, so, um, I mean, uh, I like to think of that I'm both the things that you described, like that I do a rational analysis, uh, and then I'm a gambler. Uh, so what I look for is the best odds, but the best odds given your circumstance. So if I was the son of Rupert Murdoch, I probably wouldn't have bothered with online video. I would have said, Papa, I'd like a television station or 2 or an entire network, right? But I don't have a Papa like that. My Papa is Dogen Eugen, right? So it's not— we don't have the contacts or the money. We just can't do it. So when I looked at online video, I thought, oh, this is going to work. And it's going to work for a couple of reasons. Number one, the gatekeepers are miserable at their jobs. So having at that point already worked in radio and TV enough to know all the program directors and have experience with them, And knowing just the empirical data of reading the trade journals. So if you remember back then, they used to make 10 pilots, and of those, 9 wouldn't make it on air.

Only 1 would make it on air. And of the 10 shows they put on air, 9 of them wouldn't make it. Only 1 would survive on air past 13 weeks, right? So if you do the math on that, that's a 1% hit ratio. The gatekeepers are terrible at their jobs. And I am a— Business major, and I believe in capitalism, and I believe in the wisdom of the crowd and the invisible hand of the market. And I'm like, so let me get this right. In online video, there are no gatekeepers, and people are going to flock to whichever shows they like and elevate them out of the crowd. And then they're going to have this dynamic fan base that elevated them and selected them. Well, that wisdom of the crowd— just from a purely capitalist perspective, is much more likely to be right than a gatekeeper. And eventually, if you repeat that thousands of times or millions of times, by the end online video will be completely dominant and television will be dead. Television is a small pool, whereas online video is an ocean, and the ocean will swarm the pool and the pool will become irrelevant.

So I sensed all that in 1998 and hence started on this Prediction markets before prediction markets, you are sensing in 1998, but it seems like that you were in, in other ways politically, an entirely different human being the first 25 years of your life than you have been since then. How does that not damage your credibility somewhere along the path that you have gone from one end of the political spectrum to the other?

Yeah. So I started out as a Republican. Now I'm not only a Democrat, but I'm in the Bernie Sanders, Ro Khanna wing. So back in the day when we were probably the top media company backing Bernie Sanders, almost certainly back in 2016 and 2020, we get known as the Bernie Bros guys. So how did I go from Republican to Bernie Bro, let alone all the other transitions? So what you're sensing there is what of course everybody around me sensed. So My friends used to joke around how I was a waffler. So now as a grownup looking back at it with the benefit of hindsight, I see what happened. So what happened is you start out with your software, what you've been taught, and you begin your journey there. And then if you're a thoughtful person, and really this is a gift that you get as a person who's introspective, it has nothing to do with your intelligence. It's just a question of how much do you think about your own life? And your own path. And I got blessed there. I'm very introspective. So as I looked at it, I'm like, wait, I got taught that the Republicans cared a lot about budgets.

But now here we are in the year 2000 when I make the switch. I'm like, they've never balanced the budget in my life. They've never even come close. The last Republican president to balance the budget was Dwight Eisenhower. war, right? So I'm like, I think these guys— can I curse here?

Yes.

I think these guys might be full of shit, right? And then I look at— they said, you know, peace through strength, but all we got was wars. So I'm like, wait, that was Orwellian. That turned out not to be true. And I'm like, welfare? They make fun of like people who are poor who are getting welfare, but then they give endless corporate welfare and subsidy after subsidy to the richest companies in the world, And I'm like, oh, okay, I get it.

Why weren't you noticing this before that though?

So a couple of reasons. Number one, you're a kid and mainstream media brainwashed me. So like there's this idea that mainstream media, corporate media is liberal media. No, no, no, no. They're liberal on social issues. That's true, right? But on economic issues and on everything else, they are massively corporate. They are for the status quo. They're for the establishment. So when I was growing up in New Jersey, all we heard was that Reagan was a cowboy and America was a shining city on a hill and Reagan had brought morning to America. I mean, they fluffed him better than any fluffer on a porn set, okay? I mean, they were out there, and that extended all the way through. Chris Matthews, as late as the Iraq War, is talking about how George W. Bush is an amazing guy who landed like a fighter pilot on top of the aircraft carrier and declared mission accomplished, and he was a hero. And Rudy Giuliani was a cop And Fred Thompson smelled like Aqua Velva. And I'm like, what? What is— or Old Leather or whatever the hell—

Old English.

Okay. I'm like— and he's like, the women are attracted to these guys. I'm like, how would you know, Chris? You're just making that up. You're— all of this is made up. So realizing that mainstream media was lying to us and doing propaganda was— is not an easy thing. There's still tons of people above the age of 50 that haven't realized to this day.

So you're bombastic, you're a gambler, you're a rebel. I was given a sports column too soon. I was not yet an adult. I had not found my voice, but I was good at the theatrics of writing a column. And so I look back with great regret at some of the things that I wrote in my 20s. I imagine that you do too. The person you were in your 20s, how do you forgive yourself for some of the things that you believed back then and told people about? Because you have this instinct to want to tell everybody what you know?

Yeah, it's super easy for me, to be honest. And I'm curious about your experience that I want to ask you about in a sec. But just to answer your question, you know, like my kids, my friends joke around about how I'm a waffler. And I go, so you think the better position is to not consider if you're right or wrong, not analyze what you have been taught, and just blindly follow the thing you've been taught your whole life? Okay, that's an interesting position. But I don't agree with that.

Yeah, but they can be skeptical about the— but you had so much conviction back then, the same conviction you have now about being open-minded and you've had your eyes open. You had that conviction back then too, and now you know you're wrong.

Yes, so that's right, okay, but conviction is like a passion, is a little bit separate from an open mind, right? So you could be passionate about things, and even when you, when you have an open mind and you start out wrong, you're passionate about that. Then when you come to a position that you hope is correct, you're also passionate about that. So I get it, especially because, yeah, you're right. I'm so loud and passionate about so many things. And my friends are right, like, but you just said this very passionately. I used to defend the Contras in Nicaragua, who were terrible vigilantes and committed a lot. But I didn't know that back then. And I used to compare them to freedom fighters in my political science class in high school. Now, do I regret that? No, that's what I was taught. What, am I magically supposed to know things that I never got taught? And I, you know, the software I never received, right? So, but by the way, my teacher was a liberal, uh, and, but never enforced his point of view on us, never debated us, just counseled us to have an open mind.

And, uh, uh, John Calimano, terrific teacher, uh, in, in New Jersey in public school. And Cal was right. And eventually that open mind made all the difference. There's one thing I've never wavered on, and that's having an open mind. An open mind lets you get to the right answers eventually. And I think that's more important than anything else. So, but when you did it, like, what was your parents' reaction and how much did they push back on you and how did you get past it?

Which part are you talking about? Just the choosing of the profession or some of the things that I wrote that I regret? It was my mother One of the few arguments, I grew up in sort of a traditionally, you know, old-fashioned household, Cuban principles, the man runs the house, but the woman is the actual strength of the house. And one of the few times that my mother actually fought with my father was over the idea of I was going to be successful whatever I chose to do. You have to let the boy do what he wants. My father didn't talk to me for a while because I was throwing away everything that he was working for. for on, you know, I might as well have been, you know, saying I wanted to join a rock band because the idea and for both me and my brother to come from a Cuban family where there wasn't freedom and actually make careers out of the arts. My brother did it the harder way. He was just an artist. So there wasn't like any of the protections. She just won. And she knew something that my father didn't that I needed for nourishment because my father was unhappy in his work.

And you can't help but bring that home if you're identifying so much with your work. And so I was very fortunate to have half of the support that I needed. My father wasn't the same kind of supportive. Like he just, he didn't buy in on that. So when you say that both of your parents were like, go, they must've really believed in your go get 'em, even in a culture that is maximum go get 'em.

Yeah, no, no, they were terrific. So that's another thing I'm super lucky about and I'm really appreciative of those things that I had. It might not have been money or connections, but, you know, that work ethic and the support that they gave me were invaluable and worth more than any money or connections I got.

But you're being easier on yourself about the things that you didn't know back then that you were bombastic about. For me, the writing of things, I have a nobility about writing that's more meaningful to me than some of the other cotton and candies in expression, because I don't actually agree with you in some of the places where you say that you hate the fake neutrality of the press, because I really was aspiring to empathy and impartiality and fairness and vetting. I was trying to live journalism's principles that can get absolutely distorted by corporate money and a thousand different things, but I think that the idealism at the center what journalism aspires to be is worth chasing in a free country. And I don't necessarily agree with what you say there when you hate it, even though I don't think you're wrong.

Yeah, no, Dan, I think we actually agree. So I love the idea of being objective. I just don't think they are objective, right?

Well, but no humans can be. It's not a human trait. You can only aspire to it.

No, but Dan, when you get to texts Associated Press, Reuters, some of the independent media like Guardian, uh, Lever, DropSite News, they're doing a great job. Ken Klippenstein, Jonathan Larson, I can name a bunch of people who are amazing journalists, right? And, and I love that they're trying to be as objective as possible in getting us facts, because how are we going to do our shows without facts? We can't do it without facts. But I— for mainstream media, I don't think they're trying to be objective at all. And I— and when they say that they're being objective I don't think they realize that they're lying, but they are. It's a massive, massive lie. So they are always in favor of the status quo. They're always in favor of the corporate position. And then they privilege their own bias by declaring, we are the only objective ones, and everyone who doesn't agree with us is a radical. Well, I already know you're wrong based on that statement. I know you're wrong, right? How do you know what idea is going to work ahead of time. And you're telling me you're objective and you've already prejudged all the ideas that don't agree with you?

They're so massively biased and they don't even see their bias. So it's infuriating. So in terms of the stuff we wrote in our 20s, like, people make a giant deal out of that. I just came out of Piers Morgan earlier today. We had like an hour and a half debate over what my nephew has said or written, right?

Hasan Piker. Hasan Piker.

Yeah. And I'm like, guys, okay, so what's not important is what the Democratic candidates actually think? What's not important is who we're going to elect? But what's important is what some streamer or blogger or vlogger said in his 20s, he immediately took back, but now we're all going to obsess over that? No, that's absurd. We all say stupid stuff, and especially if you talk for a living, Dan, me, you, Haas, we all have tens of thousands of hours of talking on tape. The fact that they found a couple of stupid things I said or you said or Haas said— only a couple! We must have been amazing, right? And in my 20s, was I trying to get more attention? Yes. Was I more right-wing? Yes, right? So did I say some things that I look back and I go, ah, that sucks, I wouldn't have said that today and wouldn't have come close to saying that Yeah, of course. But that's life if you're in this business. So, oh, they're like, oh, we need you to go back and apologize for your former self from 30 years ago. But bro, I, for example, the ones that I got in trouble for when I formed Justice Democrats and that helped AOC and the others win.

So that's when they started attacking me. And then I was supporting Bernie and they were doing the same thing they're doing to Abdul El-Sayed through Hasan. Now, establishment media, the objective ones, love to smear any outsider candidates, and they do smear by proxy. So they're like, Bernie, Cenk wrote in the 1990s these comments about XYZ, right? So now aren't you guilty? So that was the disgusting dirty trick that the New York Times, LA Times, CNN, all of mainstream media played. And the way they attacked me was disgusting and totally Counterfactual. They lied A to Z about me. They should be humiliated for what they did. Okay, so now you're telling me that the problem isn't that you attack every outsider on the left and the right, you overwhelmingly support the corrupt politicians that are not in the middle but that have radical pro-corporate positions, and that's not the problem? The endless wars are not the problem? The corruption is not the problem? But what a stream Schumer said in his 20s is the problem. My ass it is.

Well, he's a threat, obviously. James Carville says he'll leave the Democratic Party if Hasan becomes a leading voice. What is your assessment of the left at the moment, the state of the American left?

Yeah, so look, when the establishment Democrats like Carville say things like that, I think, see you, wouldn't want to be you. Bye, Felicia. Okay, make my day. Oh, I'm gonna have a pro-corporate guy leave the Democratic Party so that we have a better image. Ooh, don't threaten me with a good time. Okay, so to be fair to Carville, he's starting to walk that back. And in that same Piers Morgan This Morning, he walked back most of it, right? Because it was dumb. He knows it was dumb. Okay, so I don't agree with Carville on everything. Am I gonna— do I have to leave the party? I didn't agree with Kamala Harris on like 50% of the stuff that she was saying. Oh, I love Dick Cheney and Liz Cheney. Oh, I'm going to support Israel's endless genocide. You know, there was a billion— so what, I was supposed to leave the party? And by the way, whenever it's a corporate Democrat, they're like, oh, you progressives better vote for them, otherwise you're traitors! Vote blue no matter who! And then you go, oh, okay, good, Abdul El-Sayed won, so you're gonna support him, right? No, I'm never gonna support him!

support him and I'm going to leave the party. Well, okay, well then who's the liar? Who's the douchebag? Okay, let's be honest. Let's be honest. So they never meant it. And by the way, the mainstream media— and this is why I despise them— hide all the facts that are— that would give you a much better context. So for example, back in 2008, Hillary Clinton supporters were called PUMAs. You might remember that. And what did PUMA stand for? Party Unity My Ass. When she lost to Obama, she refused to endorse him for a while. Her voters hated Obama. And did you know that 6% of Bernie Sanders voters switched over in 2016? And they go, look at that, 6% is so important! 12% of Hillary Clinton's voters switched over and voted for John McCain instead of Barack Obama. She's the one that started him in the Muslim garb and the Barack Hussein Obama. So no, their side is like, no, if we don't get corruption, we're out of this party. And I can't help but say, please leave. Clean up, go home. As De Niro said in Heat, clean up, go home. Clean up, go home.

Is there anywhere in your righteous indignation there an answer I didn't see to your assessment of the state of the American left at the moment? Yeah.

So the American left is in great shape. Okay, finally. It's been a disaster for a long time. So as the entire establishment media is attacking us, how could we be in great shape? We're out of power and the Democratic Party is hated. That's because in Pandora's box, all the demons and ghouls and goblins fly out, and at the very bottom, the last thing left is hope. Okay? And we're so at the bottom of the barrel, we've reached hope. So the Democratic leadership Is so awful that finally they're universally recognized as awful. So I've been banging my head against the wall for at least a decade now going, they don't know how to win. What part of losing to Donald Trump is complicated? If you lose to Donald Trump, whose IQ can't be above 70, that means you suck at this. Don't tell me you know how to win elections better, and then you got clowned by Donald Trump, who you, the Clintons, invited into politics. Bill Clinton golfing with Trump was like, oh yeah, you should run. Oh yeah, because he thinks, oh, it's so easy to beat him. Then what happened, brother? You didn't beat him.

And then Joe Biden, I said a year before the debate, we had a petition on The Young Turks to get Joe Biden out of the race. And the old knucklehead Democratic establishment's like, no, we do propaganda and we just lie to everyone. Say that he is not senile, he does not have dementia, He's the greatest Democrat and he's going to beat Donald Trump. Cenk, why aren't you lying for us? You're helping Donald Trump. And I'm like, guys, his brain is falling out of his ear.

He's that—

I want to beat Trump. You're not going to beat Trump with a guy who can't complete a sentence. What's wrong with you people? So now the great news is the jury's in. Everybody gets Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries suck. They're terrible at their jobs. They don't represent the Democratic voters. And the first opportunity we get, we should topple them and put in real Democrats in those positions. And now even old, like the Hillary Clinton voters, the moms who were so against the Bernie Bros, they've now flipped and they're like, you guys are right. No, Schumer's not doing a goddamn thing. When are they ever going to pass our bills?

Okay.

So now, okay, we won over that side in a lot of ways, but here's the part, Dan, that a lot of people are missing. They do this on purpose in the media. They bifurcate and they say you only have 2 choices: the corporate corrupt wing of the Democratic Party represented by Hillary Clinton, etc., or the DSA wing of the party. And you have to be a socialist if you're not Hillary Clinton, and you have to be for abolishing prisons and the Senate and all this stuff. I'm like, no, I don't. There's a whole nother wing. The economically populist wing of the Democratic Party, the populist left. So that's Bernie 2016, before he got intertwined in the identity politics and the culture wars of the 2020 campaign. In 2016, he's just saying things that are supernova popular. Okay, why don't we get higher minimum wage so all the wages go up? Why don't we get Medicare for All? Polls at 65 to 70%. public option, paid family leave, get money out of politics, end the wars. These are all super popular. Why don't we just run on our popular issues? Leave the culture wars aside. Don't get into that crap, right?

Don't get into the establishment crap. Just give the voters what they want. And right now, probably the best representative of that is Ro Khanna. So if you go in the Ro Khanna wing of the Democratic Party, I think that's gold. I think we win elections super easy if we go in that direction. Like, politics is— they make it much more complicated because they want you to support unpopular positions. Actually, politics is very simple. Give the people what they want. Run on popular positions, and when you win, actually do them. Pass them. Get them into law.

I worry about your nephew. Do you?

Worry about him in what sense?

Why do you think I worry about your nephew? Just, you want to take a guess as to what? Because I don't think it's the common reason to worry about your nephew.

I'm worried about his safety. That's what I'm worried about.

Because I think that's what most people are worried about, and that's a reasonable thing to worry about. I worry about the fact that the way his generation has grown up and the way his mind works, the addiction to the online need to express yourself that he can feed as much as he does is a vice that you can't escape. It can become a prison if you don't know how to sort of get out of it. I think he's a wildly talented human being who has a giant future ahead of him, and I think he's addicted to something that can be poisonous if not governed.

Yeah, and so we can't get into his mind, you know. I love Haas, he's my nephew, and I'm super proud of the success he's had. And by the way, the candidates he's backed have won, right? And people don't talk about his popular positions. How did he get to be this popular in the first place? All the things that I just mentioned, he also agrees with, right? And the country's super hungry for. In terms of some of the outrageous things that he said, most of them he's taken back pretty instantly. Like the 9/11 comment, he took back like 2 days later on The Young Turks, right? I had him on for an interview and he's like, no, no, I didn't mean it that way. I just meant that our foreign policy is getting us involved in these messes we shouldn't be involved in, which now, by the way, 80% percent of the country agrees with, right? You just couldn't have mangled that message anymore in saying it that way, right? Okay, fine. But there's still things that he says that I think is pretty out there and I don't agree with. And good news, I can debate him on it.

And so I don't know if you know, but every Thanksgiving we go over to his house for dinner, the family does. And before dinner we do like a 3, 4-hour debate. When he was at The Young Turks, we had members-only show called Agitprop where we would— he would take the socialist position, I'd take the capitalist position. We're both on the left and we'd fight for like an hour. And people lost the art of fighting without hating, right? Of debating without saying, I want to eliminate you and you shouldn't be allowed to speak. You know, we should cancel you altogether and we should cancel any candidate who talks to you you or campaigns with you. I mean, I've campaigned with candidates who backed Israel, and some of those guys now are, you know, have not denounced the genocide. That is a billion times worse. By the way, how come establishment candidates never get asked, do you denounce Benjamin Netanyahu, the butcher of Jerusalem that killed 23,000 kids? That is a million times worse than anything any streamer has said.

Didn't Jon Stewart just ask Fetterman that? Didn't Jon Stewart just do that?

Yeah, Finally. And that's part of why I love Jon Stewart. And it was a great question by Jon, and of course Fetterman had no answer for it. And Jon is a guy who's also a rebel, right? And he didn't quite fit in mainstream media, and that's why he stood out so much, because he was a truth teller. And we were at a point where when we were on the air, which is, you know, we're ancient, we're literally the oldest show in online history, we're the first YouTube partner channel, So we were on air before the Iraq War, and us and Amy Goodman at Democracy Now! were the only national shows saying, don't go into Iraq. It's a disaster waiting to happen. Don't do it. It's just going to be terrible for America. And everybody yelled at us, and everybody said, you got to support the troops, and you guys are traitors, and all that crap that we dealt with. So the Iran War is a sequel for me, right? I've already seen this movie. I already know how it ends. But at that time, Jon Stewart's a hero. And since none of the journalists are saying it, the journalists totally— journalists totally lied us into this war.

But there's Jon Stewart, a brave voice on Daily Show, going, no, it ain't true. And so I love that brother. But the exception proves the rule. And so that's another point, which is, if I could debate him for 4 hours on the air and still stay in the same party, what is everybody getting so animated opinionated about. So okay, disagree with him.

So what?

And by the way, all the candidates he supports also disagree with him on things, as when, like, when he says that he supports Mao Zedong. There's not a single Democratic politician in the country who believes that. So they disagree with Hasan on that, but they agree with him on Israel. They agree with him on getting money out of politics, right? So this whole thing of, like, if I disagree with someone, especially if I really disagree with them, My mind has to melt. No, it doesn't. They or I have to leave the party. No, you don't. Right? And I have to cancel them. No, you don't. So here's another good example. The anti-war coalition now is super broad, and I'm allies with all of them, ranging from Hasan on the left to Tucker Carlson, Marjorie Taylor Greene on the right. They've all been on The Young Turks. They've all guest hosted on The Young Turks. Right? And so I've gotten a ton of shit for that. You can't have Tucker Carlson. You can't talk to Marjorie Taylor Greene. So, yeah, I can. Well, that means you agree with their stance on LGBTQ issues. No, it doesn't.

Well, what it means is you're your own boss now. That's what it means. It means you can make your own choices because you don't have any fear of the consequences.

Yeah, and so we've already been canceled by everyone. We got canceled by the establishment. We got canceled by the right wing. We even got canceled by the left wing, right? And so like we were having debates 2 years ago about—

You haven't been canceled. You're flourishing. What are you talking about? You haven't been canceled by anybody. You own your independent media property and you do things your own way. You have not been canceled.

So Dan, that's actually a little bit more complicated than that. So of course you're right, because I'm right here and we have a huge media network. And so in fact, in digital media, we're number one. That's the opposite of canceled. Exactly. So on that, you're absolutely right. But what form does cancellation take? So the first form is no one should associate with them. So I'm in 2020, Bernie Sanders, you are bad and evil if you associate with Cenk. That is a form of cancel culture. Then Bernie takes his endorsement of me when I was running back. Well, the endorsement got canceled. It did, right? Then the establishment puts a lot of pressure on companies not to do deals with us. And investors not to invest in us. So now that my money's getting canceled, my contracts are getting canceled. Because I survived that doesn't mean that it didn't happen and it didn't have a major effect. And I'll tell you, when we quote unquote got canceled from some on the left, that hurt the most, to be honest. Okay. I don't mean emotionally, although of course that is always a problem. Like, you know, you're trying to help this side and there are people inside the tent firing at you and saying you're the bad guy.

Right.

And you're— and but what it did was it took away some percentage of our subscribers and it sent us into an algorithmic tailspin for some time. And so we were on the ropes there. We got out of it and we're back on top. But all of this could have easily literally canceled us. So all those different attacks have significant downsides and they're real. So it's not just like, haha, somebody doesn't agree What I'm saying to my friends on the left that I have debates with and that attack us, guys, I'm allowed to disagree with you and still be on the left. You're not the mayor of Left Town, right? But I say that to the establishment as well. You guys are trying to cancel the guys I've been debating this whole time. I told them abolish prisons was a crazy idea and they got all over me, right? And they were so mad, some of the online left hosts. So mad. How dare you not want to abolish prisons, right? I'm like, guys, that poll's at 0.02%. You're in la-la land. No Democratic voter wants to abolish prisons. You guys are nutso. But I love you.

I'm not saying go leave the party. I'm saying stay right here, but let us disagree. Now I'm saying it to the people that are on the right of me on the Democratic Party. Don't cancel those guys. Don't cancel me. Don't cancel anyone. Let's talk it out instead of constantly saying, You should be pushed out of the party. You should be pushed out of the party. I'm telling both of them, don't leave the party. Stay right here and learn how to work together like adults, like grownups.

There's a reason I'm asking this question. How many employees do you have?

So we're at 60 now.

Is the time you're talking about where you thought you were going to get canceled, is it by you viewed as the most fearful, turbulent time in the doing of this, or was the beginning of it the time that you had the most doubt, what was the most uncomfortable time in all of the building of this?

Yeah.

And I ask about the employees because the responsibility for the people you care about sort of makes it different than when you're just on your own.

Yeah, 100%. So yeah, you nailed it there, Dan. Uh, so let me give you the context for it. So when we first start, we know we signed up for a super difficult mission. I mean, me, Ben, and, and our co-founder Dave Kohler, we didn't take a salary for a couple of years. Right. So we're starving out there. We're living on Hot Pockets and Fruity Pebbles, right? So then, you know, I remember when we got the first contract with Sirius, we were ecstatic because we could pay ourselves $50,000 a year. We thought we made it, right? And so, um, so, but I signed up for that and we all did. So that didn't really shake me, right? The right wing has been at my throat the entire time. That didn't shake me. I signed up for that. And then the establishment, I've been battling those guys for over a decade. And so yeah, they have the most power, they inflict the most damage and pain. But again, that's the war we signed up for. I mean, my number one enemy is not the right wing. It's definitely not the people to the left of me in my party.

I disagree with them from time to time, but so what? No, our main enemy is the establishment. The establishment that is in favor of the corrupt status quo. So that's the war that I'm in. So that doesn't bother me as much. Yeah, when our friends on the left attacked me and attacked Ana, my co-host, and attacked the show, that's when that was tougher to deal with because I was like, guys, so we're populists. We agree with you on 98% of stuff. and you're gonna cancel us because Ana said she'd prefer to be called a woman? The most benign post you could ever make in human history. She's like, look, I'm super happy to call you whatever you want. I believe in trans rights. I, you know, we're the first show to defend trans rights, right? Before anyone did it, right? And we fought for gay marriage a decade before Obama and Biden Uh, turned and, and agreed to it, etc. So now I say I think trans kids should be able to compete in high school sports because I don't want you checking kids' genitalia, and leave them alone. And if it turns out my daughter comes in second in the swimming meet, it's not the end of the world, okay?

And there's only like 13 of them in the country. Bring it down, right? But at the professional level, and at the Olympic level, and the college level, you got to let the leagues decide on their own. what they think is fair, etc. Like, that's it, you're canceled, you're a Nazi. No, that's crazy. No, that's crazy, man. That can't be the standard.

You're neither canceled nor a Nazi. That's not true. These things are not true. That's not what's happening here. People are disagreeing with you because we're all taking sides at this time in America and around the world.

But Dan, of course you're not a Nazi for that. That's the most obvious thing in the world. But people do call you that, right? And so unfortunately, some people were convinced, maybe not the Nazi part, but, oh, Cenk and Ana have turned right-wing and they love Donald Trump. And people lied about that, and then people believed them. And so now we got a rearguard action, right? Now we're getting hit from the back and we're losing subscribers. And they're telling— all the other hosts are in a feeding frenzy and they're telling everybody, oh my God, they're right-wingers now. They don't even want to abolish prison. They don't even let all the criminals run free. They're disgusting right-wingers. I'm like, guys— and, and some of them, by the way, were still supporting Biden. I'm like, you guys want to beat Trump and you're supporting Biden? Are you out of your mind? You want to beat Trump and you're talking 20 times, 200 times about trans sports in the NFL or whatever the hell, WNBA? What are we talking about? Like, nobody's gonna pass that bill. Let's talk about the things that are popular that we actually can pass.

Paid family leave's at 84%. Please concentrate.

You're running out of breath. Thank you for the time, Cenk. TYT on Twitch and all their social channels, The Young Turks on YouTube. Thank you. Appreciate what it is you've built.

Thank you, Dan. I appreciate the conversation. I love what you've built, and I love your show. And it's that same ethos of hey, listen, I don't know if I'm right or not, but this is what I believe and I'm going to say it. And if people like it, great, then I'm doing a thing that I love and I got a collection of people who agree with me and we all keep an open mind and do the best we can.

But you and I don't give off, I don't know if I'm right or not. It sounds like we know we're right. Like, I think that gets us into trouble. I know it does with me. I know with my tone, I can often be right and the way that I'm delivering it is wrong, and therefore I end up being wrong because it's not the correct way to communicate. That's not the way to get your message across. Passion is wonderful. It's nice. A lot of people like it. Your audience absolutely likes it. But it's where it is that we also get in trouble with people not listening enough because we're not doing some of the things that we have to do in communication to soften some of that. In my case anyways, I'm not going to speak for you.

Yeah, I hear you. But would you have gotten to where you are if you were softer about your opinions, you're quieter about your opinions. I don't think so. I think people like that you're confident about your opinions. But yeah, it's a meta point that we're making and it's not easy to digest, but you could be passionate about your opinions and still be open-minded.

But I've softened some of that later in my career. Like the rewards are in having the more extreme take. The way that you get the attention economy paying you is by saying the bombastic and outlandish things. I don't really have to do that anymore because like you, I've gotten into a place where I've built a thing that can protect me from whatever it is the damages can be, or most of them anyway.

Yeah, and so sports is an easy one to be open-minded on, I think, I hope, which is that—

You'd be surprised.

Well, that's true. But like, so I thought the Spurs were definitely gonna beat the Knicks, but guess what? But they didn't. And so if you are like, no, I think the Spurs are the champions—

That one cost you money. You bet the favorite there, huh? You bet the favorite.

Don't you know, brother?

That must have lost you a lot of money. Cenk, appreciate what it is you've built, sir. Thank you for spending this time with us.

Thank you so much, Dan.