Transcript of Robyn

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Good Hang. We have an incredible musical artist here today. We have Robyn with us, and we're going to talk about so many things today. We're going to talk about her huge monster dance hits and how they continue to be relevant 15, 20 years later. We're going to talk about growing up in Sweden with very artistic parents. We're going to talk about how fun it is to be embarrassed. We're going to talk about how good it feels to lie on the floor. We're going to get into so many good things today, and we are very, very excited to have Robyn.

Woohoo!

Hi. Wait, what? Hey! I appeared at the beach.

Zara has got a background of a beautiful palm tree, and look at you.

And I put this blazer on for you, so I'm kind of want to backing out to show what it looks like.

Incredible. Stunning. Zara, I'm so impressed because you are not only an incredible musician and performer, but you dance hard through all of your songs. I mean, that is not easy. Like, the breath control alone of having to move and not be out of breath.

Yeah, no, it's true. I feel like it's such a big part of my show and what I do because I love. How do you make it stop zooming in and out like this?

Okay, what's happening right now for people that are listening, which is amazing. We might need to keep it because this proves my point that you never stop moving. But right now, the zoom is zooming in and out, and it's taking Zara closer to the water.

Yeah.

It looks like the waves are taking you in and out.

Beautiful. Okay, okay, we'll keep it.

Okay, okay, we got it.

I just don't want to get distracted by it. But I've been moving. I have been moving. Oh, I know, very good. I've been.

You're so good.

I've been moving a lot. I really have. Physically, like on stage and in the world. But it's a big part of who I am as a person and as an artist. Growing up, like Beyoncé was just my biggest inspiration and idol and still is. And I think also growing up, I did so much dancing. I went to the Royal Swedish Ballet School. I took all these classes after school. And I feel like it's an amazing way, just like singing, to express yourself. And I think like singing, dancing is something that everyone should be doing.

Yes, I so feel you. I mean, this is kind of strange to hear from somebody who hosts a podcast, but I would much rather dance than talk.

Yeah, we can do both.

I do feel, though, that moving and dancing expels us, to your point, any anxious energy. It helps get rid of it in a way that a few things do. Yeah.

And especially when you do it together with people. It's something you do that. That's why having concerts, performing live is so powerful. It's my favorite thing in the whole world to do because it just literally brings people together, and it just makes you feel like very human. Like everyone's connected.

Well, you do that in your shows. You make sure that people feel like the audience feels like they're part of your show. You bring people up a lot, right?

I do. I think that's such an important part of my show. It's my favorite part. And you never really know what's going to happen because everyone has different personalities, and they bring something different, and that's what's fun about it. And I think also I had I think one of my favorite shows that I've ever done was this summer, and it was this festival, and everyone just started lifting up their friends because I have one dance move where my dancers lift me up in the air. So when I did that song, I do my song "Midnight Sun," I do it twice.

By the way, thank you for playing "Midnight Sun" twice because I all when I go to a show, I really want to hear the hits, and I want to hear them more than once.

Yes, and especially at festivals because I'm like, you know how it is. You go and see someone that you really want to see, and then you're like, "Oh, shoot, I missed the first three songs of the set that I wanted to see." And I'm like, "Don't worry, I got you."

Yeah, we're going to come back around, and you're all going to lift up your friends. Well, we're talking to somebody today who I can imagine is a huge influence on you.

Totally.

And speaking of hits, has so many.

I know, it's crazy.

I can't wait to talk to Robyn, and I know she's going to be thrilled that we talk first. When did you first meet Robyn?

I first met her at a dinner in Sweden, and it was really chill. We didn't sit next to each other, unfortunately, but I remember I wanted to go in for a hug. But this was peak COVID times, and she was like, "Oh, stay awake." But also, she was going through her IVF journey, and I didn't know that at this point. So I was like, "Oh, she was serious about that." But she was actually very nice. She was very sweet, and I didn't get to hug her.

You're right. It looks like the shaved side.

Yeah.

And the fact that she wore a hoodie in her videos, it was like. She doesn't care that much about the male gaze.

No, I love that. We had a shoot together not too long ago, and she was sitting in a skirt, legs wide, like just spreading. And they were like, "Excuse me, we can see your panties." And she was like, "Yeah, that's the point."

Incredible.

And it wasn't because of a sexy gaze or that she wanted to, you know, like, "Look at my panties." It was like, "Yeah, I know, and I'm taking up space, and you can see my panties, and so what?" I was just like, "Oh, that's cool." Like, she's just so cool. She's very she just embodies, in a way, what it means to be a woman to me also because she's so assured. And maybe she's not. I don't know what's going on in her head, but what she exudes is this confidence and this security in who she is and what she wants to say.

So Robyn is going to be coming in, and I was wondering if you have a question that you think I could ask her.

I have so many questions, but I was thinking a lot about the fact that she's been doing this for her whole life, like the big majority of her life. I wonder because sometimes I feel like what's going to inspire me when I'm older because I hope to do this forever because it's a part of who I am. So I wanted to know when she makes an album, does she just make the next album because it's who she is and the fact that she has been doing it? So it's sort of automatic, or does she do anything specifically to make her stay and feel inspired?

That's a great question because she does have some big spaces between records, like eight years. It's so true. Sometimes you're like, "I'm ready to make something because I have an idea," or like, "It's time to make something. Let me be inspired just by going and doing it." It's a good question.

Because I feel like I get inspired by doing it, but also, to be honest, in my life, I have never not worked and released music all the time. And actually, when I did have a break for four years between an album, but that was like I was really going through it, and I didn't really feel good not putting out music, and it sort of stopped me. So now I'm going to try this thing of actually very intentionally be inspired.

Right.

Forever. So is that something that's inspiring and fun and nice because they know her so well, or is it hard because how do you evolve in that?

Great question and such a question that an artist would ask another artist. Like, "What is your process?"

Yeah.

And then Zara just gets sucked into the ocean.

I love it.

What I wish in your background, which is palm trees and ocean, I wish at one point a giant bird would come down and pick you up and take you. That's how you'd get off the zoom.

That's a little cinnabal right there.

That's such a good question, and I think she'll love it. And I just have to say, you are such an inspiration for so many people watching you, Zara. And there's people like young women and men, not only in Sweden but all over, watching you. And I'm sure that 20 years from now, they'll be asking you the same question. How are you still making stuff that resonates with us? But congratulations on just so much great deserved success. You're very loved, and we love you here.

I love you right back.

Thank you so much for doing this.

Have the best conversation with Robyn. You're amazing, and I hope to see you again soon.

Hopefully, we can get you into the studio, and we'll recreate that background for you so you'll feel comfortable.

I would love that.

I'm so glad I'm here.

Thank you for coming.

I've been listening to your podcast all week, and it's so fun.

Oh, gosh, what are you listening to?

Well, Martin Short is my dream man, so I've listened to that.

Get in line, Robyn. He's everybody's dream man.

I know.

Isn't he so? Let's talk about Martin Short for a second.

Yeah, let's talk about him.

What do you love about Martin Short?

That he just that he's up to something, and there's this thing in his eyes.

Yes.

Is he trolling you? What is he doing? And he's always been that way.

Yeah.

And there's not a lot of people that do. There's a few, but he's maybe my favorite one, just that you don't really know what he's thinking. And then when you do get to find out how he feels about things, you understand he's a very kind person.

Yes.

And I think the combination of that, but there's a darkness there.

See what we think of the song. We love a little.

Heart or something.

Totally. He's like a trickster, but he doesn't see he's not a mean person.

No.

But he goes for it.

Yes.

He's so funny.

Yeah.

Did you meet him when you were at the last time I saw you, we were meeting for the first time. Robyn is here, everybody.

Yeah.

We're meeting for the first time, but I feel like like most people, I feel like I know you, even though I don't. But I got to see you in person last time at the SNL 50th, which the big music show you performed. Who did you perform with, and what did you do?

With David Byrne, yeah.

Yeah, and how did that come together?

Well, David asked me.

Wow.

Because he was asked to perform, and he wanted to do it with me. Like, what? I don't know what he was thinking, but that's how he felt, and he asked me to do "Dancing on My Own" with him. So it was his idea.

Did you had you met before? Ever performed together before?

No, we have mutual friends, but never met in person. I just grew up with his music, and so I brought my mom as well because she's such a fan. It was a very full circle moment.

You performed at SNL back in 2011.

Yes.

And what was that like that time, and how was it different than being on stage with David Byrne in a completely different way? It feels like yesterday, 2011, but it's not.

Yeah. No, I just look back at that time as a very specific experience because I've been working so hard for like 12, 15 years, just working, working, working.

Yeah.

I started so young, and I think when you are at that speed, at that age, with all that time kind of in your back, and you get to this point where you can trust your intuition, and that's how I wrote "Dancing on My Own," very much. Not all songs come that way, but "Dancing on My Own" was very direct. It took a short time to write it, and it just that song just meant so much to my career or whatever.

Yeah. I mean, I want to talk to you about your music, all of your music, but specifically, when you mentioned "Dancing on My Own," I think about that viral video in New York. Did you ever see it in the subway?

In the subway, yeah.

So for people who hadn't seen it, it's after one of your shows, and it's in New York subway, and it's people packed in, and everybody starts singing. And it's like such an incredible moment because it really also, I think, highlights what your music does. Your music really brings people together. They feel very seen by it. They feel very connected to each other, and that was such an incredible moment.

Yes. It was crazy. I saw it on the news. I saw it on the local New York channel the day after, and I didn't even know it had happened. I didn't know it had happened. So I turned on the TV, and I just saw people singing "Dancing on My Own" in the subway on the local channel, which was really cool.

Yeah.

On TV, you know it felt like very old school.

Yes.

Oh, I'm on TV.

For those listening, there used to be this thing called TV.

Yeah.

And you remember.

And it was in a box, and yeah. I mean, even then, I thought it was unusual, but I think now it's definitely just a very real moment. I thought, well, also when people come together in real life, like they were there together in the subway, and it happens spontaneously.

Yes, and that's so beautiful. So that's so unusual for even people to be in crowds anymore. Like clubs and concerts are still places where people gather, and knowing and learning about you, I know those places have always been very important to you.

Yeah, I grew up with people that worked my parents were in theater, and so I grew up with this community of people doing things together, building things together, rehearsing, big children pretending to be grown-ups. And I was brought up in that belief system that that's how things happen. So for me, it's always been important.

I love hearing about your parents, reading about your parents. Gia Tolentino wrote a great article in The New Yorker, and we learned a lot about your family. And you're the daughter of two really interesting artists.

Yeah.

And you grew up in a very your dad ran an independent theater company.

Yeah, together with my mom.

Yeah, and both of them came, and you kind of were on the road with them.

Yes.

Did you perform in shows with them?

No. They did a dadaist poetry evening that was like their biggest hit at the end before the whole theater collapsed. And it started with my mom and five other actors just picking their noses. And.

Oh, my God.

The only thing that I ever got to do in the theater was to hand out the program in that particular play.

Was there anyone ever in the audience that was like, "This is ridiculous"?

I mean, I think that was actually their hit. I think a lot of other things they did were much weirder.

Really? Like what other weird stuff did they do?

They were really into the Russian theater tradition, so they did these very nerdy things. They recreated Stanislavski's or not Stanislavski's, Mayor Holt's biomechanic choreography that he used to do for the parades.

In that New Yorker article, I loved the story about your brother dancing and then wanting to have an office job, and then your parents were begging him to not have an office job.

Yeah. They had an intervention with him. They were like, "You're going to be unhappy. We don't think you should do this." What? You need money for retirement? That's not important in life. We're worried about you. Don't take this job.

Did he take it, and is he still a dancer?

He didn't take it.

Did he stay with dancing?

No, because what's smart about what he did was that dancers retire so early.

Yeah.

And he was like, "I'm not going to retire when I'm 45. I better do it now," because he was like 35. So he got an education, and now he's choreographing video games.

Whoa.

Yeah.

That's cool.

It is cool.

I feel like one of the things I wanted to talk to you about today because I feel like you have, like you said, you have been in the business for a long time. Me too.

I know.

Me too, and I feel like women like us I'm going to keep comparing us today, but I think there's something very exciting about realizing that the work and creativity doesn't stop. It just changes. But there's a lot of stuff you learn along the way.

Yeah.

And first of all, I cannot believe, Robyn, when I was learning about you, that you started so young because when we met you, you already felt very self-possessed. There was a feeling that you were in control of how you presented yourself to us.

I was not. But I'm happy being across that way.

Okay, so we projected that on you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, but I think I was just young and very self-confident in a way, but then also insecure in a lot of other ways.

Yeah, yeah, but we felt this confidence, and you're right. I mean, we probably were projecting, but I just remember you are then and remain unusual in a business that really does sometimes chew people, especially women, up and spit them out. You really stood for and hung in at a time when it was not easy to do that.

That's such a compliment. Thank you for saying that.

You really kept checking in with yourself and being like, "Do I want to do this? Do I want to wear this?"

It's true. No, I do. And I did, and I think that's really because of my mom, and I think it's because of my parents and that they kind of just protected me. They gave me this spell that I was exposed to all these other things that had nothing to do with commercial interests when I was younger. And so that was like what I I was like, "Okay, cool. Let's go tour in America. Play for some people." I thought it was like what I was going to what I did with my parents. We were in a Volkswagen bus, staying at our friends' houses, playing at theater festivals in Europe.

All those radio no offense to well, a little offense to back then to those radio guys.

Vicious.

And it was mostly men. They were vicious. I can remember in my early career having to do radio things, and it was like.

That would not fly.

Totally. They were weird and creepy and ill-informed and mean, and they'd make you do pranks.

Yes, they made you say weird things, just kind of like make you look stupid, basically.

They were like, "You're going to hand you a piece of paper and say, 'Say this weird thing.'" And you'd be like, "What does this mean?" And they'd be like, "Don't worry about it."

You're not my big brother.

That's exactly.

Something like older kids would do to you when you were in school or something. So like a very weird culture.

Yeah, and for a young person being thrown in there, it was intense.

And also a new culture, like a country that I obviously was so interested in, all the culture that I grew up, all the music I listened to was from here. But it was still something I was still lost in translation.

Yeah.

And I think it's even easier too when you kind of recognize the culture, but it's still so different.

Yeah.

So it was a lot of signaling that I had to get through, but also how happy I am that it happened and that I got to do all those things so early.

Yeah.

And then kind of break it down and realize what it was that I wanted to keep and what I didn't want at all.

Yeah. Well, for people who don't know, I mean, you grew up in Sweden. You came over to tour. And you know what I found out about you that was so great? I was listening to you on Los Culturistas. I love those boys.

Me too.

And men.

Men.

Let's call them men.

Men.

Grown, grown men.

Yeah.

I love that you love Nana Cherry.

Yes. Do you like Nana Cherry?

Okay.

Okay.

Love.

Tell me.

And I didn't know she was Swedish. I learned from you.

Yeah.

And I've been listening to her for 50 years, basically. I mean, in my 50th birthday, Buffalo Stance was like my song.

So good.

You have to listen to it right now.

Yeah, let's do it.

And I was listening to you on Los Culturistas, and I said, "Are you " I had no idea that Nana was Swedish.

No, she's really Swedish.

For people who don't remember Nana Cherry, how let's talk about Buffalo Stance for a second.

I think her other last name is Karlsson, like me.

That's right.

And her mom is Swedish, and her dad is African. And then her stepdad was a beautiful jazz musician called Don Cherry, and that's how she got her last name. She grew up in Sweden and in London and in New York, and she was all over the place.

She was just the. I'm sorry. I got to get rid of my commercials.

It's hard. It's hard. Look how cool she is. It's too much.

Jigolo, huh?

Sucker?

Hey, I mean, I can see how she was an influence because your music is like that. It's like there's no rules to where it's going to go.

No, and she's having fun. And there was this just chaos of influences.

Yes.

And the fact that she was Swedish was just like mind-blowing to me.

Yeah, I mean, there's a feeling about her music and your music where it's and your career in general, Robyn, which is that you were like, "I'm going to be I'm going to be an example of somebody who's doing what I like, and I hope you like it."

Yes, exactly. No, it's so true. It's so true. I think that's how it works. But I think, again, it's this thing of believing. I don't know. I feel like I was just thinking about what you said, how you've done this for a long time, and so have I. And I find myself also in this new space now where it's like I'm the embarrassing mom. And I think I just want to say. It's very narrow now what is cringe and just being human and being silly and being unfiltered is not as easy as it used to be.

I think you're really right.

And I think it's bad for the world.

I think you're right because and I think you're also kindly pointing out that it's not as easy as it used to be. Because I think we're like, "Just don't be embarrassed and do your thing and be yourself." And it's like young people are like, "Okay, okay." It's hard. It's much harder than it was. But that is the secret. That is the secret. If you do things, even if they're embarrassing, you're cool. But worrying about being embarrassing is like a lifelong journey.

Totally. No, and I think we did anyway, even if there wasn't Instagram or whatever.

Yeah.

So that's like inherent in all young people.

Yeah.

But it's dangerous to censor yourself too much because I feel like that's what Martin Short is to me, that there's not a lot of censoring going on in his head. You know what I mean?

Yes.

And he might stop himself. Maybe there's a lot of things he doesn't say, but the things that come out feel like they have a very wide base.

Yeah.

And the range of that is so important. And I think that's what she had. That's what Nana had to me as well.

Yeah, yeah.

That I could just I didn't know. I didn't understand it. I just knew that the range of input that she had had was so interesting.

Yeah, so many influences. And then also, Robyn, you start your own label at 24.

Yeah. I know.

So cool.

I know. I thought I was like going to retire in like two years. No, seriously, I thought I was really old.

Here we go. You know what? I'm going to put it.

I'm just going to do it, and we'll see what happens. No, but I remember definitely being like, you know I'm coming back to Sweden watching MTV, seeing Britney Spears doing Slave for You, this amazing record she made with Pharrell Williams. And I was just like, "I'm not going to be able to do that." I wish I could, but I can't. And she and I started out at the same time. We worked with the same people.

Yeah.

I have the utmost respect for her. And I was in this position where it was so close. I could almost grab it if I just pushed myself a lot, but I just couldn't. And I went back to Sweden, and I just decided to just redo my whole life and make music in a different way. And I had no idea if it was going to work, but.

It's incredible. I mean, the foresight and the insight during that time because for people who don't know, Max Martin, an Uber producer and writer who's basically just written every song that you love. I don't know how else to explain him.

No, it's true.

Incredible Swede. And you worked with Max, and Britney worked with Max, and you guys were doing stuff at the same time. And it's so true. In that moment, it felt like you've spoken about it. You made a conscious choice to decide, "I'm going to try to be the artist that I am rather than the artist that maybe other people want me to be or that I think I'm supposed to be."

Right.

That's a really that is such a road diverge moment in your life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I was also in a good position. I'd made a little bit of money. I had people to support me. I didn't do it in total darkness, but it was still very scary at the time.

Yes, of course.

And I didn't really know other people to really look at. Pop music was still a very specific genre for young people, which is weird because like David Byrne and I grew up with pop music that was just very different.

But let's be honest, for women, there was just I mean, I think you and I did have, I think, about this a lot. I think about the women that I saw growing up in I don't know if you would say pop music, but in music. And there was like Annie Lennox and Chrissy Hynde and.

Totally.

Missy Elliott, all these people that were doing their own thing.

Aaliyah.

Yes.

Aaliyah, that's right. You loved Aaliyah.

Yeah.

Where did you guys meet? We just met working and sometimes staying in the same hotels. And she was just super sweet, like a really, really lovely person.

Yeah, yeah. She's what a talent.

Yeah.

I want to talk to you about your hair.

Yeah.

The politics of your hair because I'm obsessed with hair.

Cool.

You have great hair.

Thank you.

I think that having short hair during that time, I bet was like you thought it was like, "Who cares?" And I bet it was I bet you had a lot of talks about your hair.

Yeah, yeah. You're totally right. This is such a good observation. No, it was a big thing back then.

Yeah.

There weren't any comments to read, but yeah, people were talking and asking a lot about my hair. And the most.

Robyn, you're quiet.

The X.

Courage.

I was just like I always had short hair. Also, Robyn is a boy's name in Sweden. And my mom was this person. She was this person that thought if I just cut her hair short, it would grow back thicker, which is not real.

Yeah.

It's just one of those things that moms do. So I had really short hair, and my name was Robyn. And it was kind of like that Jonny Cash song called Boyner Soon.

Boyner Soon.

It was kind of like that. It made me tougher in a way, but it was kind of rough. But I was already past that. For me, it wasn't a big thing, and it wasn't a big thing in Sweden, but it was a big thing here. And that's interesting.

I bet it was a big thing here.

Why?

And I bet you had well, because look, if we're going to compare the US and Sweden all day, I mean, and I'm happy to, because I think, honestly, especially during that time, there was this expectation of just I mean, let's get real. It was like people wanted the women, especially their pop stars, to be like little girls.

No, it's true.

Like little doll girls.

Yeah, it was a rough time.

Yeah, and they wanted this idea of femininity that would make everybody instantly understand what they were being sold.

Yeah.

And anything different than that, in the best way, perked up everybody's ears. But it also felt like you were making some kind of gigantic statement.

Statement.

You were like, "God, I think what's the hilarious thing." I was like, "Cool. I don't know what this means." I was really trying to figure it out.

Yeah, yeah.

But it stirred things up.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was an easy thing to do to get attention. I mean, cutting off your hair is not a but it still is, I think, in a way.

I agree.

I don't think that it's really gone away.

I think you're right.

And I think also what that probably did at the same time that it maybe was making early executives in the '90s nervous, it also was like a little signal to people, especially gay young men and women, that you were like there was some kind of signal that you were an artist for them. I think without even meaning to, it was you were separating yourself from that idea of the pressure of that, the construct of that.

They should have met my friends back home. I was just like a really contained teenager, I think, compared to them. But I think the cool thing about it is that you can signal things with the way you look. And I think that's what music does too. You can send these secret messages and that people understand. It's like you don't really know even exactly what it means, but you can feel it.

Yeah.

And it's such a beautiful thing about popular culture. It's so powerful.

It's what I love about pop music. It's so hard to write a great pop song people don't understand. And you've written so many of them. You have done so many.

I love your songs.

Let's whisper. Let's whisper.

Yeah.

Let's do it.

But I mean, you put out Robyn, your first record, you put out Body Talk. We've talked about Dancing My Own. Call Your Girlfriend is on every dance floor. 15 years later, you have made songs that have stood the test of time. And that's so good job.

Good job.

I feel good about that.

How do you feel when people call when people say you make sad bangers?

Yeah.

Which is such a funny I mean, I know what they're trying to say, but I mean, and let's just say Dancing On My Own, for example, is such a good example of a huge feeling in a pop song and emotional vulnerability and connection and all that stuff. And people scream it and sing it because they're feeling something. Do you like that description when people say that, when they say you make those kinds of songs?

Yeah, yeah. I used to hate it. I used to feel really embarrassed.

Ooh, embarrassed again. Here we are.

By the fact that I could only write really sad love songs, like grow up. What are you going to write a happy love song? What a nightmare.

No, I know. I'm so in love. He loves me so much. We're so great. We're perfect for each other.

No, but you can write about other things, I guess. But I think life is embarrassing, and I think that it's something I've embraced. I always loved I always loved Dancing On My Own. I always loved all of those songs. I never regretted any of it. It was just more like I found myself just being sad bangers, just gravitating to that all the time. But then I also feel like that's what life is and the vulnerability.

It's what music does, I think, in its best ways. It helps you tolerate a feeling.

Yeah.

Exactly. And then you just get a little bit better at staying in those uncomfortable spaces.

Yeah.

And also how great if you get to feel that with other people.

Yeah. No, you're so right. That's exactly what it is.

You know I'm obsessed with your club love of clubs.

Yeah.

And the reason why I'm obsessed is because I love bedtime, and I love to go to sleep. And I get worried about how late everything is. When you're on tour or something, you're like, "I'm going to go to the club. Do you take a nap?"

How do you because it starts so late, Robyn.

I mean, it's true. I might take a nap.

OK, good.

Yeah, yeah. A party nap is great.

A party nap.

No, that's one of the best things you could do. Yeah, definitely.

What time do you get up?

But you know it's also like if you stay up if you happen to stay up for 30 hours, that's just.

A nightmare?

No. No, I think it became much better to do that once I became a mom because I'm like, "I'm not going to feel guilty about this." If I'm super hungover, I'm not going to beat myself up about it because it's not going to happen again for another year or so.

Yeah.

Just go for it.

Just go for it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do whatever it takes to have a good time.

Well, I love how you've spoken very openly about your journey, IVF, and having your child and having a child as a single mom and the way that it's changed you. I mean, on Sex Essential.

Yes.

You talk so it's so cool to hear music about where you're at and speaking to people who are going through the same things in their life or might just relate to it on a completely different level if it's not specific.

Yeah.

And when you made the decision, when you said, "OK, I'm going to do it my way," like you've done for most of your life, you've done things your way, what was the best part about doing it that way?

Really facing my biggest fear. I think that was the biggest fear, really being on my own as a mother. My mom was a single not a single mom. My dad was there, but he was not really there for a while. And then I mean, he was. And then he definitely is now. We went to therapy, and my dad is amazing.

I read that you and your dad went to therapy a while.

Yeah, he really is amazing, my dad.

A lot of people couldn't even imagine going to therapy with their dad.

I know.

Really cool.

I know.

And Swedish too.

I know.

Swedes do not go to therapy.

No, Swedish therapists, do they even exist?

So hard to find.

I know. I've talked to my Swedish.

We don't talk.

I know. I've talked to my Swedish relatives about therapy, and they're like, "Oh, you have Swedish relatives."

Well, by marriage. My brother lives in Stockholm.

Oh, cool.

Stockstund, excuse me. He would want me to.

Stockstund, yeah.

Yeah, that's a different place.

And he's been in he's been there like 20 years.

Cool.

Yeah. And so I have a Swedish sister-in-law, Lotta.

Lotta, yes.

And.

Ja.

Ja, Lotta.

Hej, Lotta.

Hej, Lotta.

Hoppas att du mår bra.

And yeah, anyway, and therapy is not nobody goes to therapy.

It's true. Not compared to here. Everybody goes to therapy here.

Yeah, people love therapy.

It's true.

When I stopped therapy, my psychoanalyst, she was like, "Well " because I was like, "I want to keep going. I want to see you my whole life." She was like, "You're crazy." OK, but we can do it. It could be like an American therapist. That's what she said to me. So sure, she looked at you know she looked at some American TV series about psychiatrists or psychoanalysts.

Yeah, I mean, sorry, but I interrupted you when you were saying that being a single mother was a fear until you faced it and you realized, oh.

Yeah, it's not a biggie.

Yeah.

I mean, I think that was yeah, that was like my number one. Ooh, I don't want to be a single mom. You know that was the big thing for me. And I think it has to do you know now that we're talking about therapy, I think it has to do that you know my dad left my mom. So that was like a very inherent fear.

Right, and you're like, "I don't want to repeat this pattern."

Very shameful place to be.

Right.

And I think, yeah, I just got over it. It was like totally fine.

Well, it was like.

It wasn't a big thing at all. And I think it was also I had so many really sweet I mean, a lot of people that I spoke to, but two of my best friends, women, they were like, "You will actually enjoy this more than having a baby with someone else." And not specifically like a man, but they were like, "You can decide everything yourself." There's a lot of upsides to being a single person parent as well, actually.

Yes, yes.

I'm not saying that's the best way. I don't think that is necessarily the best way. I think it's great for children to have many close relationships. But you can have that also.

Yes, yes.

And this was news to me. I don't know what it is, but those things that you are very scared of, it takes a long time to really understand.

It does. And I would say, Robyn, I think it's confusing for people like yourself who consider themselves very you know like I said, like very independent, very open-minded. It gets confusing when you're like, "Why am I worried about this?" You know people wouldn't even think that I would care.

No, it's true.

It's very confusing because people you know I'm sure what's projected on you is that you're just a badass, and you'll do anything, and you don't give a fuck. And you're like, "I'm a human in the world just like everybody else with the same kind of weird programming, and I have the same fears and desires as everybody else."

Totally.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah, yeah. I found, yeah, myself to be like an orthodox person all of a sudden in that. Yeah, but it was fine.

And I think what women do for each other I think this is what your music does is they tell other women when they feel that way, and then everybody feels like less alone.

It's true.

Yeah.

But the cool thing about writing about that period before I had my son was that it was all these very contrasting emotions, right? It was like feeling like a machine doing IVF, like counting, you know doing my shots, and then thinking about like, ooh, very, very, very abstract existential things at the same time. In Sweden, it's funny because you know you don't choose the donor yourself.

Whoa, say more.

The doctor chooses for you, and they choose it's very Swedish. It's very like, you know all children are the same. We're not going to choose eye color. We're going to.

Right, of course.

We're going to be as neutral as we can about it.

Jantelagen.

Jantelagen, which I think actually has you know it comes from a good place. But it's strange to, I think, someone from America to hear that. You know in Sweden, the donor was chosen for me by the doctor, and they do it so that the kid looks like you, basically. That's the only but then, of course, you have to have a doctor that you trust.

Yes.

And so me and my doctor was really funny. It's in the song I wrote about. I wrote about it called Sex Essential. And she told me, she was like, "Who's your dream donor, Robyn?" I'm like, "I don't know. Who's your dream donor?" This is a really interesting conversation.

It is an interesting conversation because do you go for smarts? Do you go for looks? Do you go for height? I mean, the Swedes, everyone's tall.

Exactly. And it says a lot about someone.

It does.

You know who their dream donor is. And hers was the singer in one of our biggest rock and roll bands. So I was like, "OK, cool. We can have this conversation. We're going to have it for real."

Yeah, yeah.

So I was like, "OK, cool. Well, what could it be like?" I don't know. I was just like thinking, "What if my dad looked not that I want to have a kid with my dad, but what is my family look like? What would be the natural thing?" And then I was like, "I don't know. Adam Driver, I like a big nose. He's great." You know and she was like, "Cool, great." And you know she made the choice. I got pregnant. And then you know we talked a little. She was like, "Yeah, and you you know said you like Adam Sandler." So which is also a great and at first, I freaked out.

He's going to wear shorts all the time.

Yeah. And then I was like, "Well, there's no Adam Driver or Adam Sandler in this sperm bank, so I can just let go of that fear."

And also, may we be so lucky to have babies with Adam Sandler?

It's interesting how you get stuck on this idea of that you're able to choose your child with the partner you have. Also, which was very sobering. You basically have to let go of a lot of control.

Totally.

And that's what the song is about, really. And maybe that's what the album is about too.

I think that's the beautiful first lesson, even just when you're going to have your kid. I can remember I was doing SNL, and I was like, "Well, my last show is on Saturday, and I'm due on Sunday, so I'll have the baby maybe Monday or Tuesday."

Cool. I'll go back to work and.

Yeah, and then maybe Wednesday if he's a little late. And then you know as if I had any control over when I was going to give birth, which and it was the first of a million lessons that your kid arrives as their own person.

Yeah.

And is there you get the kid you know it's like there's some divine way in which you and your kid meet each other. I want to talk to you about your dancing and your relationship to your body because I think that watching you perform is really, really interesting and awesome because of and kind of what you spoke of earlier. You were introduced to the idea that the body was another way to express yourself. And your dancing is so connected to how you're feeling.

Thank you.

Do you make up your own moves? Are they choreographed?

Both.

OK.

Yeah, both. I feel like a lot of it is actually improvising and doing it over and over again and having almost like a library, like different places you know you can go. But then I also work with choreographers. I worked with a girl named Desidera for a long time. We did all the body talk stuff together. And now I'm working with an amazing choreographer from Canada. His name is Eric Christensen. He also works with Charli XCX. He did her tour. There is something magical about the image, right, and the way to be so direct in how you communicate.

You like to get on the floor a lot.

I like to get on the floor.

Yeah, babe.

Yeah, babe.

Yeah, babe. And it feels I love to lie on the floor.

Yeah.

And I love to I do. I really do get to I love the feeling of being on the floor.

I know what you mean.

What do you like about getting on the floor, in this case, the stage or the you know what do you like about getting down there?

Well, there's something about just what it when you're older, also what it does to your spine actually laying down. It will crack your back just by laying down, basically.

Yes.

Yes.

It feels so good to lay down.

And but you're right. And it just takes the pressure off in many different ways.

Yes.

I have a friend. She showed me the other day. She likes to dance while laying down.

Ooh.

Sometimes when she's tired, you know she'll be just like dancing, laying down. You can try that.

I will try that.

See how it feels at the club.

Yeah, at the club.

Well, I've done that at the club.

Yes, absolutely.

That's kind of like more natural than doing it at home. Just laying down at home, dancing. But yeah, she does that.

There's something about getting down on the ground just feels like as we get older, there's this feeling like we used to have to live way up in the sky.

Yes. And also, we don't know if we can get up.

It's exciting. Have you done any of those tests? I've done a couple of those tests, like you know do these five things like you know in your 50s, and then you're and you're just like, "Oh, Jesus Christ." And one of them, can you get up without your hands?

Should we try?

I can. Oh my god, please no.

I mean, actually, right now, I think I can because I have to do it on tour.

That's hard to get up from a lying position.

I know.

Without your hands.

But there are several of the others that I cannot do.

Yeah, yet.

Yet.

Yet, yet.

We're going to in your 70s, you're going to be like, "Oh my god, I cannot."

That's all we'll be doing.

I know.

But it's true. And it is true. You read some article, and you're like, "Sit down in your chair five times a day." And you're like, "Jesus Christ." And you're like, "Wait, this is a little harder than I thought." But do you have a masseuse on tour?

I wish I did.

OK, we need to get you a masseuse.

Yeah, we do need to get me a masseuse. And I think that that is, yeah, one of the big pleasures in life.

Yeah.

Getting a massage.

Agree.

Isn't it the best?

I feel like it's like I feel embodied because it's a lot of my work is just like what I said earlier, like just to actually feel my body.

Yeah.

And dancing does that for me. I've said this before, but I'd rather dance than talk a lot of times. I just feel like I have to remind myself that I have a physical body.

Yes.

And massage is like, you have a body, babe.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

And it's so trippy. You can really take your place and very intimate.

Yes.

It's almost erotic sometimes.

Yes.

You know what I mean?

Sometimes, often.

Often.

I think.

More often than not.

Now let me.

Like it's OK.

Do you say something?

Yes, I do.

Me too. What do you say?

What do you say?

I say, "Well, take me to I'm your masseuse."

Yes.

And also, I'm going to give you another thing. I'm a little chatty.

Yeah.

OK?

OK, cool.

It's fine. But I'm chatting.

Yeah.

And I'm doing it. And I'm just kind of you're not it's not really I'm not doing it the way you'd like it.

Well, I'm just going to say, can you please add a little bit more pressure? That's the first thing I say.

Yes.

If they don't understand, I say it maybe one more time. You can go even harder.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

And then you know it has happened that I'm like, you know what? I think I'm done.

Incredible.

Yeah.

Yeah, let's not waste time.

Yeah, because just putting lotion on my body is something I can do.

Absolutely.

By myself.

And gentle, nice, respectful feedback.

Yeah.

I mean, that is the thing about being I think about being in your 50s is you're like, may I give you a little feedback?

You might be interested in what I have to say.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's so true.

No, it's important.

I know.

Do not waste time.

You talked about process. I want to talk to you about process. And someone else had a question for you about process. So we do this thing on the podcast where we talk to people who know our guests, are fans of our guests, who has a question for me. And we talked to Zara Larson, another Swede, another beautiful Swede.

She's so amazing. I love her.

Tell me about what you love about her.

I love that what I'm most impressed by, which I think is a good thing about the younger generation, is that they are very clear on what they think. And she I actually met her recently. We did something together. And I asked her, like, how are you so sure about your political views? How are you how did you get there? And she said, I had a blog. And you know a lot of people you know were really angry at me, and I had to answer a lot of trolling comments.

Yeah.

And she knows how to communicate that in a way that is really inspiring, I think.

Yes.

And she's funny. She's really funny. She makes me laugh, and she's kind.

Well, you are a hero of hers.

I love her.

And her question was, do you kind of wait to be inspired to make another record, or do you make another record and know that you'll be inspired? Process.

Yeah.

And which I think is an interesting question, especially for an artist who's you know been making things for a long time.

Totally. I mean, it's really interesting. It's an interesting question because it also is about the mystery of inspiration. I feel like I listened to your interview with Billie Eilish, and she said, I live to laugh, which I think was such a great thing. But I feel like you can add, like, I live to be inspired in that.

Yeah.

And it's like like a little fire, and you have to keep it going. And sometimes you do get inspired to do something, but it's usually very hard to know where the line goes between feeling inspired and getting inspired just by doing something. And I think with the close collaborators that I have, Claus being one of them, it's really about us just getting into the studio and start like mee mee mee yapping at each other and making jokes and talking about really stupid things and then maybe make something.

Yeah, sure.

You know what I mean? It can be kind of frustrating and boring, and you don't even know what you're doing. And then after a while, it starts crystallizing anyway. So I would say I'm more of a process person than the intuitive thing.

Yeah, that's really interesting. I know what you mean. It's kind of like learning to be just kind to yourself during the process, like not giving up or being too hard on the first, second, third drafts of things.

Yeah, and I think I mean, I think me and Zara spoke about that, that it's not necessarily a sign that it's going to be bad just because you feel uncomfortable doing it. And it's almost like we're in a time now where we are so also politically correct that any environment that doesn't feel safe can sometimes be a place where you don't think you're supposed to be there. But learning how to kind of sit through that uncomfortableness, it's like almost like an endurance sport in a way, right?

Yes.

If you can sit the person who can sit with the uncomfortable feeling the longer can probably write the more interesting song, I think.

Yes, that's so true.

But it's nice when you do it with people that you feel good with.

Yes.

But it's not always going to be pleasant.

Yeah. I want to end our talk today with some Swedish questions, questions about Sweden.

Cool.

So like I said, my brother Greg, he lives in Sweden, has for, oh, I mean, I can almost 20 years now. Can you please rank Swedish holidays? Midsommar.

Yes.

Why so scary? Is it because of the movie?

Yeah, I think so.

OK.

Do you find it scary?

It's weird.

Have you seen the movie?

It's a very culty. There is a whole hand-holding and circling and.

And dancing, pretending you're a frog.

Yeah.

Have you done that one? Små grodorna?

No, what's that one?

You should have I mean, it's this thing we dance around the Midsommar Pole.

Yes, creepy.

Which is, yeah, a little bit creepy, a little bit vulgar. I mean, it is a ballast.

Yeah.

And it's like you know there's the two balls, and it's like you're dancing around. But the weird thing about it is that we're the biggest hit of Midsommar is Små grodorna. It means little frogs, little frogs. They're so cute.

Oh, yeah, they dance around.

Yeah, so you're like jumping around the pole as a frog. I don't know why. It is strange. It's also really lovely. It's like the lightest day of the year. If you have sex on Midsummer's Eve, you're still a virgin. Maybe that will change your mind.

Oh my god. Ladies, did you hear that?

Who knew?

What about Crayfish Party?

Yeah, I don't like crayfish.

OK, so you would put that third.

Totally.

Because the other one is Lucia.

Love Lucia.

So Lucia is beautiful.

Yeah.

And for people who don't know what that Swedish holiday looks like, what does Lucia look like?

It's the 13th of December. It's one of the darkest days of the year. And in the middle of the day, because the sun goes down at 3 o'clock in the afternoon, Lucia shows up. And she has candles, lit candles in her crown. And she sings beautifully. And I think it's actually an Italian saint that we just made our own.

Yeah.

There's all these weird but I think it's on one of our pagan old holidays as well. So it's all mixed up. But it's a Christian pre-Christmas thing.

I didn't even think about that, that the lights and the candles are like cutting through what is a very dark Swedish winter.

Yeah.

Very cool.

Yeah, it is cool.

And then my brother would also like me to ask you, Eurovision.

Yeah.

Why is it so big there? And it doesn't the Swedes love Eurovision.

The skepticism.

Yeah.

Oof.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, we don't have ABBA anymore, so I don't really watch Eurovision.

ABBA was discovered on Eurovision?

They were one of the first people to win the whole thing for us.

I see. I should have known that.

With Waterloo.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's hard to I mean, where do you go from there?

Hard to be.

Yeah.

Then we had Kerola.

Who is you know both me and Zara grew up listening to her. Amazing artist. And then now it's just shit, I would say.

I have American fans that I watch it with. And they have this my friend Bert, he has a blanket that he pulls up over his eyes.

Because we're watching it?

Because it's so embarrassing.

Yeah.

And it really is embarrassing. And after I've watched it, I feel really just overstimulated and in a bad way. I was looking for words. I'm not going to say. But yeah, I don't like it.

Great. And lastly, Khale, the caviar in the tube. I mean, the Swedish breakfast I love a Swedish breakfast because it's I'm a salt girl. I'm not a sweet person.

No.

And so the way that you guys do like a cheese and a fish at breakfast is perfect.

I agree.

But the caviar and the thing.

No, I know. I'm sorry.

Yeah, we're going to say no to that.

We're going to say no to that. And I think a lot of people would say you're not Swedish if you don't eat it.

Yeah.

It's true. It's that of a big thing in our culture. But I really don't like it.

And you know because I'm an American, I have to finish my Swedish questions with an American question.

Yeah.

But because God forbid, we don't talk about America for more than five minutes. But what is the thing about over here, whether it be the crowds or the way of life or something, that you've adopted and incorporated in your life, synthesized in your life that you like?

Well, to be honest, I love this country. I mean, I've come here for more than half of my life.

Yeah.

My biggest audience is here. And the music I grew up listening to and even the Swedish artists I grew up listening to listen to American music. I mean, it's just so it's been so important to me to have this culture. And I think you know Los Angeles is extremely ugly. But it's because you have this kind of thing that you can do whatever you want. And it creates beautiful things that don't exist anywhere else. And that's really incredible.

I think people have been turning to you, Robyn, for a lot of that feeling of wanting to express big feelings that they have and uncomfortable moments that they're living in and living through.

And I'm so thankful for that.

OK, so I always ask my guests at the very end, is there anything you're listening to, reading, watching, a video, a TV show, anything that's making you laugh these days?

Well.

Other than Martin Short and his body of work.

Other than your interview with Martin Short. You are both really, really funny. No, I think maybe it's not a funny thing, though.

That's OK.

But it did make me laugh. It's a book called Is It Ever Just Sex?

OK, stand by. Looking it up.

And I can't remember the writer now.

I'm out of time.

But he's a psychoanalyst. And he wrote a book about sex.

Ooh.

Talking about the cows.

OK, Darian Leader is the psychoanalyst who wrote the book.

Yeah, and it's about you know just human beings and their sexual habits and why. And it's from a psychoanalysis perspective. It's really interesting.

I mean, America is such a prudish country.

Yeah, you are.

Yeah.

That's one thing definitely you have a problem with that.

Yeah.

Yeah, but I don't know. Yeah, it's weird. You can't be naked too. It's like.

Well, Swedes love to be naked.

Yes.

I mean, everyone is naked.

Yes.

And there's nothing and obviously, being naked doesn't mean you're being sexual.

Exactly.

But it is funny. Like it is.

It's like ta-ta.

Yeah, like yeah.

Hi, so how are you?

Yeah.

No, it's very relaxed with the nakedness.

Yeah, very, very relaxed. And you're right. There's something where we still I mean, we're just so juvenile. We think it's so stupid and funny when people are naked. And Swedes are like, who cares?

Yeah, who cares? It's true. My brother's girlfriend is American. And yeah, she gets a little bit uncomfortable when we're all swimming naked in the summers. She's like, I'm just going to go behind this tree and put on my bathing suit. And we're like, you do that.

I love her.

OK, I'm going to read this book.

Yeah. I loved our conversation.

Me too.

I'm so happy that you did this.

I'm so glad I'm here. I'm so glad you asked me. Thank you.

Thank you so much for doing this.

I loved it.

Robyn, everybody.

Thank you.

Thank you so much, Robyn. That was so great. I loved our conversation. You're such a talented, interesting, cool artist. And thanks for just being so frank and funny and real. And you know we talked about a lot of things, but we did mention that Americans can be very prudish. And so for this Polar Plunge, I just want every person right now listening to take their clothes off. Just wherever you are, if you're driving, unless you're somewhere inappropriate.

You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by The Ringer and Paper Kite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spellane, Kaia McMullen, Alaya Zinaras, Bridget Geerlings, Paige Garbarini, Bell Roman, Andrew Van Steenbergen. For Paper Kite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Original music by Amy Miles.