Transcript of Why Getting Sober Isn’t Enough: Trauma, Culture & Recovery | J. Carlos Rivera

We could get rid of the alcohol and drugs. We can get rid of it, go to a treatment center, get clean and sober. But if we don't work on those, those deep-rooted issues, which is the fear, anger, guilt, shame, if we don't work on those that are inside, then eventually we will relapse again. We will hurt. We will hurt somebody.

If someone has a problem with substance use disorder, please call One Call Placement. That's 888-831-1581. And if we can't help you, we'll make a referral to someone who can. Please, we're out of time. One Call Placement is affiliated with Carrera Treatment Wellness and Spa and One Method Treatment Centers.

Before we start the conversation today, I want to deliver a personal message. Every day, families across America lose someone they love to an overdose. That's why I've partnered with the CDC Foundation through their COPE, Community Overdose Prevention Efforts campaign, and committed to matching every donation dollar for dollar up to $25,000. I've spent my life helping people recover from addiction. But if we can get to the place of prevention first, this would help save so many more lives. I hope you'll join me in supporting the CDC Foundation's overdose prevention work at cdcfoundation.org/cope. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Today on We're Out of Time, we sit down with Carlos Rivera, whose life and work have been shaped by personal challenges cultural heritage, and a deep commitment to healing Native and Indigenous communities. Carlos has spent decades addressing addiction, trauma, and wellness in tribal communities, drawing from both his lived experience and professional expertise. In this conversation, we explore the intersection of historical trauma, cultural identity, and recovery, and the lessons all of us can learn about resilience, hope, and real healing. Carlos, thank you for joining us today. For people meeting you for the first time, what is Generation Red Road and why did you feel called to create it?

Uh, yes, thank you, Richard. Um, Generation Red Road, it was created out of necessity. Um, you know, during, during my career in national trainings specifically for the Native American community here in America. Red Road is a concept that came out of a vision, you know, generations before I arrived here from a medicine person who had a vision, who had this vision that there was a path that the Native American people can achieve, you know, during their walk in life to live a better life. And so during that time, there was a lot of losses within our Native American people. We lost our land. We were massacred. We were— alcohol became an answer for the pain that was— that our communities were feeling. And so, you know, during this time, you know, Black Elk was the medicine person's name. He had this vision of, you know, mending the hoop is what he called it, which also, you know, we're talking about the Red Road being a path that our Native people can walk on. And on this path, it's a path of healing. It's a path of sobriety, language, culture, spirituality. And so, you know, this vision came generations before we all arrived.

What was the medicine that he was using?

Well, it's a deeper understanding When we say medicine, we're referring to our indigenous medicine. You know, we're referring to, you know, the natural plants that come from Mother Earth. Sage, cedar, sweetgrass, natural tobacco, and many, many more. And so these individuals who we call medicine people, they have a vast knowledge of not only that, but also the spiritual connection. There is a Western concept to the word medicine, you know, that's taking prescription medication, you know, that's going to your doctors and receiving medical care for some physical problem that you're experiencing. That's the Western concept of medicine. When I say medicine from an Indigenous perspective, we're referring to spirit, we're referring to sage, we're referring to natural plants that have helped our people. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you're ingesting it. It also means that you're clearing your space around you, that you are— you know, you're also bringing it close to your body. And so those are the spiritual medicines that I'm referring to. And so when we talk about medicine people, they have that vast knowledge of the Indigenous medicines that we include when we are working with our people in the mental health field, because if we're only bringing in the Western concepts, and we're bringing in Western concepts into our indigenous world, it's not going to work.

Thank you for explaining that to me. We use sage all the time. Okay. Usually when I leave a room, everybody's saging the place.

Yes. Yes. Probably a couple of times. That's right.

That's exactly right. You know who else was very into Native American culture? was Phil Jackson. Do you know who that is?

Who's that?

He was the greatest living basketball coach.

Oh, Phil Jackson. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, after, you know, after multiple years of traveling throughout Indian Country, primarily using a 12-step model. And so, this model, I used it. It helped me in my early years of recovery, which by the way, I have 22 years this year.

Congratulations.

Yes, thank you. And so, you know, traveling and sharing that message of 12-step but using a Native American approach to it, it helped. It definitely helped. And it continues to work and help our people. But also what I learned is that there's not one size fits all.

That's right.

And I've encountered many Native people, including myself, that, you know, that 12-step, it only got me so far. And not to take away from what it does and what it can do for many people, but in my personal walk in recovery, I needed something else. to help me dig deeper into my childhood, dig deeper into the intergenerational trauma that is also within me. And so, in 2017, I, you know, I had the blessing and I had the honor to learn from one of the originators of what we call Red Road, and his name is Gene Thin Elk. And so, Gene Tenoch, you know, originated this model called Red Road Approach. And that was out of his own necessity for healing and not only in his personal life, but also intergenerationally. And so, 2017, I, you know, I was able to learn from him and spend some time with him. And the message that I got at that time was to, you know, I need the next generation to carry these messages on.

Who is this man? Was he a therapist?

No, Gene Ten Elk, he was a spiritual man. But he also worked over 30 years at the South Dakota State University in Vermilion, South Dakota. And so he was also an educator. And so with with these spiritual teachings, he was able to create a product, you know, a workbook, I guess, you know, for lack of a better word, to be able to share that with our Native communities to help them heal from addiction and mental illness. And so that was something he did for his whole career. And so in 2017-ish, I was able to, like I said, sit and learn from him and also kind of formulate my own ideas in the work that I have done and in my personal healing to be able to start this nonprofit called Generation Red Road. which is a platform to deliver what we call Red Road teachings.

So really what it is, is it's your protocol for substance use disorder.

Correct.

Okay. I love that. That's your program. Okay. You know, I've had a lot of experience, like I said, for 20 years treating this population. It's the hardest population to treat that there is, as far as I'm concerned. And I would know because I've been doing this a long time and I've given back 10,000 people back to their loved ones. So I know for a fact, based on my experience, and it's not anecdotal at this point, it's field research. Okay. Because I've been doing this for so long. If there was a study, they'd be using my data to inform their study. So this is field research at this point.

Okay.

And let me tell you what I found. The tribes that have the casinos versus the tribes that don't. The ones that have the casinos, if you're getting 50 grand a month or whatever it is you're getting. Okay. And I think one of these guys was— this guy went to 36 treatment centers.

Wow.

He can't get sober. He's stuck in it. He's never even stayed longer than a week at these treatment centers. So we get him and he stays for the full 30 days and we try to keep him for 120 minimum because we do the research and, you know, we, you know, this is not like, uh, we're bereft of talent. You know, my people have got between 10,000 and 30,000 hours. of client-facing treatment experience, right? So these people don't think they know, they know they know. He made it the full 30 days. Now, he didn't stay sober.

Mm-hmm.

Okay. And we haven't heard from him. We heard from the person who referred. And we were depressed over that result. We were, and I was, beside myself because this is how I get my self-esteem, right? By giving people back their loved ones. And I wanted to know where the failure was, why we couldn't extend this guy, right? And I'm talking to my clinical director with this guy who referred him, who is a liaison, uh, for treatment centers and the reservations. And the guy stopped me in my tracks and he said, what the hell are you talking about? This is the first time he's ever stayed longer than a week at a treatment center. We're sending you everybody. That was the toughest case I got.

Yeah.

Right? And the way we do it is, um, we bring a lot of those spiritual practices into this too, because my clinical director is So into it, right? She does all the sage. She does all the education. She does the spirituality groups, right? And and I'm not just talking about for a Native American culture. We bring it in for everybody because you know when we talked about it initially setting it up, she asked me about it and she said, "What do you think?" And I said, "Well." My father-in-law grew up on a reservation. My kids are 1/8 Native American, Mohawk. My father-in-law once told me that when you kill an animal there, they use every piece of that animal for something.

Mm-hmm.

They don't waste any of it. And I thought that was the most beautiful thing I had ever heard. And so I said, you bring all of it to me. And so that's what we do. Um, I don't know, we are looking. I don't know if it happened yet, but a Native American therapist. Okay. And it's not for all the Native American people that we get. It's because we wanted it.

Thanks for sharing that. You have a direct connection with, you know, Native community, Native, you know, Indian Country. And that is helpful to learn. You know, I have met a lot of non-Native people who have attempted or have, you know, whatever opportunity they had at that moment, and they wanted to come into our community and help. And I have seen a lot of come and go. Over the years. You know, maybe the fire went out in them. Maybe that opportunity, you know, decreased and it is no longer a priority to them anymore. And so, I often am curious when I meet individuals who want to help our community because for me and for the many others that I that I work with, you know, it is our life. It is a way of life. It is not a fire that is ever going to go out. This is something that is a— it is a part of a bigger connection to be able to bring programs like Red Road and many others to our communities and be a part of helping our people to heal. And so, you know, that direct connection is important. And to, you know, to hear that you've been doing it for multiple years, you know, that's also very helpful.

Consistency is important. You know, like I said, I've met individuals who came in really fired up and then a year later, a year later, they closed down their treatment center or, you know, they changed a whole different direction because it didn't work out, you know. But that also speaks to the Western concept. And so if we are bringing in a Western concept into an Indigenous community and utilizing these concepts to help with addiction and mental illness, it's not going to work.

Hey, can I tell you something? I need to stop you for a second because I want to tell you something. that we've been using for 2 and a half years. And we were the first ones to use it. And now all the evidence is coming out and they're determining, uh, what we knew 2 and a half years ago, which was, uh, these GLP-1s, okay, help with alcoholism.

Mm-hmm.

And that's your thing. Over there in the reservation. It's not as much drugs. I mean, you got some drugs, but it's primarily alcohol.

Not completely. Not completely. Alcohol has always been there and it's always been an issue. But we also have high rates of fentanyl that have come into our communities that are now killing our young people.

Well, let me tell you how you fix that. One of the ways, and it's Western, Okay. But it's good. Okay. Believe it or not. Um, uh, it quiets the noise around drinking, smoking, food, all of it. Okay. Uh, microdoses. I'm not talking about where you're going to lose a ton of weight.

Okay.

I'm talking about just getting rid of the noise. Because in that particular population, I've never met someone who wasn't kind. Never. So these are good people. They're just struggling.

Okay.

All right. Before you got sober, was there a specific moment when you realized something had to change?

Yes.

Yes.

When I got sober, when I made the decision to get sober, my story is no different than anyone else's who was ready. You know, I had lost all hope to live. I had lost my family. I lost my self-respect. I lost all those things and And what I didn't know this at the time, but I also lost my spirit. My spirit was gone, you know, from my body. And so with all— with the little bit of brain cells that I had left at that time, I prayed for the first time. I prayed, and I didn't know who I was praying to. Because prior to that, I hated God. I hated anything that was religious because of my experience growing up being pushed out or, you know, excluded because I'm brown, because I'm half Mexican, because I'm half Native American. And so I hated anything that had to do with God or religion. And so, but that July 2nd, 2004, I didn't want to live, but I also didn't want to die. And at that time, I had 3 kids that they were little, little kids at the time, you know, 4, 6, 8. And I knew that if I died, if I died, that their story when they grew up, it would be their dad died on the street.

And so when I thought about that, when I thought about that's going to be their story going forward, it just broke my heart and I could not allow that to happen.

Are you close? Are you close with the kids today?

Yes, yes. Um, there, there's some definitely challenges, um, with, you know, my, my, those, my 3 kids that were here already when I was in my addiction. They're grown adults now and they're living, uh, you know, their independent lives. Um, you know, and so there's still things that, yeah, absolutely, that I have to work on. with them during that time in my life.

Now you're just being consistent because you're living a different way. So you have to be consistent. You have to show up for them. Do they have kids?

These kids?

Yes.

My oldest daughter has 2 kids. So I'm a grandpa.

Where does she live?

She lives right here in Sacramento.

And you live in Sacramento?

No, I don't live in Sacramento. But I'm here doing some business today in Sacramento.

How far do you live from your grandkids?

2 hours.

Okay, you see them all the time?

I see them through photos, I see them through phone calls, and physically I actually see them tomorrow. So that's, yeah, it's a good thing, you know. But going back to that, and it'll touch on that too, you know, my kids and my life, my family today. But going back to that prayer that I made July 2nd, 2004, I prayed and I asked for help. For the first time, I surrendered and I asked my Creator, you know, if you give me one chance to change my life, I promise you that I will give my life to this. And so I said that prayer and then for, let's see, that was in July, August, September, October, November. November 1st, I walked into a treatment center. And been clean and sober ever since.

Having worked in treatment for so many years, what shifts have you noticed in the field for better or worse?

One thing I have noticed for the better is, you know, not only our Native treatment centers are utilizing Red Road concepts, But I'm also learning and I've observed the non-Native treatment centers utilizing more of the Native approach, which to me, that's a goal of mine. One of my goals is to help create more Native treatment centers, but also to help non-Native treatment centers that are serving Native people to be able to meet their needs. from an Indigenous approach. You know, I think that for many years, not knowing what we didn't know, we were utilizing only the 12-step. We were utilizing only a Western concept, but we found out that when we're working with Native-specific people, there's the importance of sage. You know, sage is so healing, but it's also been very commercialized that I think people forget how powerful sage is. Sage is a strong medicine that could really help us when we are in the healing process. It's not just an act, it's not just something to do. because we saw it on TV or we, or we heard about it. But it's actually a powerful medicine that will help to cleanse our, our space and our energy so that we could also re-energize our spirit.

Let me ask you a question. Let's get back to— and I get that and I'm all on board with that, just like I told you earlier. But I want to get back to the GLP-1s. Are any of these Native American treatment centers using that? And we've been doing it for 2 and a half years now. All of a sudden it's becoming a thing. Okay. Um, any of the Native American, uh, treatment centers using this?

Not, not that I'm aware of. And it's also because of my, my lack of knowledge in, in, uh, in microdosing.

That's okay, man. You're the guy who gets— you're like You're the guy who gets people into treatment. You don't need to know what the individual protocols are at the place. You just have to feel the love there and know that they're good people. Because if you're good people and you can feel the love there, that's where you got to go. Because in early sobriety, that's what's most important, that they align and they form that, that attachment, that therapeutic alliance. with the therapist, which by the way, do you guys have therapists there?

Yes.

Okay, good. Because we can talk about that and that's like really important. All right. Um, yeah, that's something if you ever want, uh, these treatment owners to call me or Dr. Spielvogel, who is the most knowledgeable, uh, about this, uh, he'll be more than happy. or I'd be more than happy to talk with these folks and tell them what's good about it and what's not good about it, so that they can try it if they, if they want to. But it's been 2 and a half years now. And we're seeing a difference. And not just that. Okay, and this part is anecdotal.

Mm-hmm.

I was smoking cigars all day long. All day long. I have to struggle to smoke 2.

Hmm.

Because I just forget. And then when I'm smoking, it's not meh. Right? So you're talking to a guy who's smoking, you know, maybe 10 cigars a day. Right? For a long time. So I really like these things. So if, if anybody's interested, I'm more than happy to talk about it. All right. Many people have heard the phrase historical trauma, but don't fully understand it. How do you see that showing up in Native communities today? This is really important because this isn't even something that I thought about. I mean, my staff has, they've talked about it, but I haven't given any serious thought to the generations and how this affects them because it's being passed down. From generation, and not just that. The Native Americans were so decent; they protected the land. They they they they use everything there. It's like they're grateful for it. They they pray on it. It's like, and then to have that taken right through generations, it. it almost perpetuates a societal depression or a societal victimhood. That's real.

Yes.

Because it happened.

Very real.

Okay. So do I kind of have that right? You want to elaborate on it?

Yes. So Richard, and this is that question I It's connected to— it's connected to my prayer that I made on July 2nd. So I'm going to come back to that prayer. I'm not done there. But, you know, going back to historical trauma and, you know, and my knowledge on the historical trauma isn't something that I learned in school. It's not something that I learned in a university. This is real life experience of what historical trauma has done to our people and from a healing perspective. So, because it's a spiritual— this is a spiritual problem. It's not just a physical issue that we're dealing with. All these things that we see today, the addiction, the mental illness, the depression, the anxiety, the fear, the panic, All of these things are symptoms of the historical trauma that happened to my ancestors, you know, 500 years ago, almost 600 years ago. And at that time, our ancestors didn't have an opportunity to heal. You know, there were things that didn't even exist. None of these things existed because they had never experienced anything like this in their lifetime. And so they're, they're just trying to survive, you know.

They're just trying to survive, um, the, the, you know, the diseases. They're trying to survive the, the massacres. They're trying to survive the, the stolen land. And so they're just trying to survive. So what was— what, what they were experiencing, the, the deep dark depression, the fear Those were then began to pass down from generation to generation. So that's like a simple, you know, a simple overview of it. It's in our DNA. It's in my DNA, the cellular memory of what happened to my people 500 years ago, 600 years ago. And so if I'm not knowledgeable of that, and if I'm not willing to admit that and work on that, Then I will be, you know, the next generation to pass it on. And so, you know, I didn't want to do that. So I always say, I always tell, you know, tell people today that the simple answer is what we're seeing today is a symptom of the deeper problem. We could get rid of the alcohol and drugs. We can get rid of it, go to a treatment center, get clean and sober. But if we don't work on those, those deep-rooted issues, which is the fear, anger, guilt, shame, if we don't work on those that are inside, then eventually we will relapse again.

We will hurt. We will hurt somebody.

You know what else we can do?

What's that, Richard?

Anybody in a, in a community that gets money from a Casino doesn't get the money if they're on drugs or alcohol. Okay, see, this is bull. You're killing these people. If I had fifty thousand dollars a month, okay, I would never have stopped smoking hookers ever until my heart fell out. I'm not kidding. That's that's insane. to me.

It is.

Okay, I mean, look, I always tell, uh, uh, parents, you want your kid back, then you have to listen to us. Otherwise, you ain't getting your kid back. We've done this too long, right? So if the kid doesn't want to come to treatment, then it's like, you know, the locks are changed. Not, not for every kid, okay? But if the story requires it, right? You got to cut them off, right? You know the golden rule, right? What's the golden rule?

Tell me, Richard.

The man with the gold makes the rules, okay? They should not be giving these kids money like that and to kill themselves.

I guess I don't have any gold, Richard, because I, I didn't know that, that golden rule.

Yeah, no problem. My kid didn't know it either. He thought it was do unto others. Okay. Right.

Well, let me dig into that a little bit. Let me dig into it. So here's the— very true coming from a Native perspective. Very true. You know, today some of our Native people, not all of them, there's actually a small percentage of Native people that receive revenue shares at a high amount like that. I think that's also a misconception that the public have on Native communities is that every Native American is walking around with $50,000 a month, but that's not true.

That's right.

It's a very small number, and coming from a Native perspective, it is true. These individuals have all the means necessary to kill themselves. And those are individuals sometimes that you never see at a nonprofit clinic, that you never see at a Native American treatment center because they have all the means necessary to keep them drunk or addicted.

That's right.

Yeah, so I wanted to acknowledge that, but here's the other side is you know, because of that historical trauma and everything that was taken. I mean, you think about California alone. California is very unique in this way. We have the most tribes in one state than any other state in America.

Really?

We have the most tribes, and we've also lost sometimes the most land because of The beauty, because of the resources that California had when the European people arrived here, it's like they arrived in paradise. They arrived in paradise. And so, you know, the goal at that time was not to save any Native American but to kill every single one. Today, why that the financial revenue that some of our people receive I mean, that's nothing compared to what is actually owed to the people for the land that was taken. And so, but also we know that money, it does bring a better quality of life. And so, you know, any tribal leader— It brings a better quality, it's not everything, but as a tribal leader, you want to you want to bring better for your people, and you want to give them a better quality of life. And so those monies can also be utilized to create resources, and that's what they are today. A lot of these tribes that provide, you know, what we call per capita for the people, they also establish and create resources like treatment centers. They pay for treatment beds. They're now helping other tribes to help their people.

Uh, and so it, it's a huge, it's a huge discussion.

I didn't say don't give it to them. I said don't give it to them while they're suffering, right? Um, also, uh, I'm not saying that you keep it. Look, if they're entitled to the money, okay, then you can give it to a wealth manager To or or a savings account or a growth account, T-bills, whatever it is. Okay, at at at a rate that keeps up with inflation, so you're never losing any money. You're never losing the cost of money, right? So there's ways to do this where you're not harming anybody. Okay, but if that was If that was the leverage, if someone knew they were, and it doesn't matter if it's $5,000, $500, or $50,000. It doesn't matter because whatever it is, they're used to getting it and they're living on it. Right. And if it's significant enough, maybe not $500, but whatever it is that's significant, they will then get sober because being poor is worse. Okay, they'll at least show up, and you know what it's like. Okay, you show up to an AA meeting or you show up to treatment. You may not stay sober, but you're not you. You're not using the same way because you're not enjoying it the same way because you can't unring a bell.

You know it's wrong. Yeah, you know this is is is is precluding you from being the guy or the woman you were always meant to be before you got derailed by the drugs and the alcohol.

Right?

What are some of the warning signs parents tend to miss when a child is struggling in the Native American community?

Well, you know, before I could answer that question, I'm still thinking about the last question, Richard. And if it's okay to touch on that just briefly.

Okay.

Richard, so, you know, some tribes that do that do distribute, you know, financial revenue to their members, they have done that. They have created resolutions and policies for their tribe that, you know, that pertain to, you know, being clean and sober if you want to receive your distribution monies. And so, you know, when I hear those things, and I hear them, you know, every now and then from different tribes that I work with, You know, I'm very happy. I'm very, you know, supportive of that because I think that we do have to, as tribes, as tribal leaders, we do have to establish, you know, those resources that are going to be able to help our people to live not only a better quality of life, but also a peaceful life. And so, you know, I just wanted to share that those things are being done.

Thank you.

And I think the more that we grow, more tribes will continue to create those opportunities.

All right, so that's clear. What do you do after treatment or when they get sober? Is there vocational training? Do you help them find jobs? Are there jobs on the reservation that are available to them? What goes on? Because, you know, when you get sober, you know this, you gotta know where you're supposed to be. 'Cause if you don't know where you're supposed to be, you're in a bad neighborhood. Right?

Right. Okay.

So, what do they do after the fact, if anything?

So, programs like, like mine, programs like many others that are out there that are either prevention or treatment, this, this is why we do what we do. This is why I do what I do. I, I educate our people and organizations in a, in a curriculum that when, when their members come back home to their community, that they have something to participate in and belong to. Sense of belonging is important for any human being.

That's the most important.

Yeah, for any human being, wanting to belong to something is important. It's a huge part of life. And so these programs like mine and the many others that are out there, they provide a safe circle for members to come to when they get out of treatment because what they were doing in treatment They have to continue that when they go back home. They have to continue going to the circles. They have to continue going to a sweat lodge. They have to continue drumming. They have to continue to burn sage on a daily basis. They have to continue to work with a counselor, an elder. And so programs like mine and the many others, we establish— we help tribes to establish those so that they are there for their members when they come back home. Because we know that if you don't keep doing what you're doing, what works, then it's just a matter of time before you relapse and you go back to hurting another person.

All right. Last question. What's your message to the person listening who feels they've run out of chances?

There's— you never run out of chances. You never run out of chances until we're in the ground. You know, if you have a willingness to help yourself and to seek out help, then do it. Even if it's been 10 times already, if it's been 15 times, because it might be that 15th time that it's going to work. It will stick. So do not run away from it. Do not get into your head and let your head tell you that, oh, I've already tried this 14 times and I'm not going to do it again because no one's going to help me. The help is out there.

That's exactly right. And I can prove it. I've had more sobriety dates probably than there are dates on the calendar.

Yeah.

Okay. I was, I couldn't stay sober. It took me 3 years just to get 30 days. And I didn't stay sober that time either. Okay. Um, and it worked out pretty well for 10,000 families. So, yes. We never throw anybody away because, um, Because we never know who they're going to be, who they're going to impact.

It's—

we don't throw anybody away ever.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Richard, for this opportunity. You know, there was a question I didn't answer, and that was if there's anything that we're missing in regards to Our youth and addiction. You know, I think that my experience working in our Indian Country with both adults and youth, we could work with the youth every, all day, you know, every summer, create beautiful experiences for them and give them the teachings and the messages of how to live a better life in this world that we live in today. But what I realized is that those kids are going to go back home when this is over. They're going to go back home to the same environment that they lived in when they first arrived here. And so for me, if I could go back and in the beginning of my career in substance abuse, you know, mental health, is I would work with those parents of those kids simultaneously. Because if the kids are learning these messages and the parents are just dropping them off and they're going back home and they're just continuing life the way they have been, then those kids are gonna have a bigger challenge to try to live with these new skills.

And then their parents are still operating in that same mindset. And so, I think that's where we fail. I think that sometimes is where we fail in that area is we work with our young people but we also need to work with the adults and the parents.

I think the failure is in mentorship. I think the failure is Not knowing time management. Time management is one of the most important things you can learn. You know where you're supposed to be, you show up, you show up on time, you have a plan, and you execute the plan. That is, uh, mentorship. They should, they should learn basic financial literacy.

Mm-hmm.

Okay. Um, they should, uh, in treatment, And, uh, find out what they like to do, what they want to do, and figure out how to monetize it. Yes, I said in treatment, everyone. That's what I said, because that's what we do.

Mm-hmm.

Okay. When somebody walks out the door, you have to be comfortable just as a human being, knowing that you did your best to make certain that they want, that they're okay in the world without you. That is where the failure is. It's in the aftercare. Okay. And the aftercare starts while you're in care.

Okay.

That's where I think the problem is. And some people think I know something about this.

Yeah.

But that's where, that's where the failure is. Okay. Um, where can people reach you, my man?

Yes, you can reach me by social media. You can find me on Instagram, Generation Red Road. You can find me on Facebook, Generation Red Road. Those are probably the best ways to reach me.

You are the salt of the earth. You have blessed our program. I am grateful that you came here. You work in the single hardest population that there is. And the fact that you're doing it and don't get discouraged and fall into a depression is beyond resilient because I couldn't do it all the time.

Yeah.

We can do, we can do one-offs here, but as you know, when you have someone who is so resistant to stop drinking, right? Especially when they're getting a lot of money. It's, it's impossible. It's, it's, it's beyond hard. And you're doing it, man. You're doing it. And I've heard nothing but the best things about your organization. Nothing but the best things.

Thank you, Richard. Um, you know, uh, I had, I had a great experience having this conversation with you and there's so much more there's so much more that, you know, that is out there. And yeah, I look forward to, you know, any time we can conversate about addiction and mental illness in Indian Country.

Good. Well, anytime you want my best thinking, okay, you've got my phone number and you can call and I'll give you my best thinking in anything. I'm not, Not a big shot. I'm not too busy to talk to anybody.

All right. Thank you. See you next Tuesday.

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