Transcript of How Kobe Bryant & Michael Jordan Mastered Pressure | George Mumford

That's where we come up with the eye of the hurricane. You can be in the storm or you can be in the eye of the storm. You are not the storm. But here's what I'm gonna say about that. It's a perception. So if you perceive this as a roadblock, it's a roadblock. If you perceive it as a stepping stone, it's a stepping stone. And so there's no such thing. I say no struggle, no swag, no pressure, no diamonds. Pressure is a privilege. So it's how you interpret it. So some people see when you're outta your comfort zone that, Other people see it as, oh, I'm getting closer to the zone.

If someone has a problem with substance use disorder, please call One Call Placement. That's 888-831-1581. And if we can't help you, you, we'll make a referral to someone who can. Please, we're out of time. One Call Placement is affiliated with Carrera Treatment Wellness and Spa and One Method Treatment Centers.

Before we start the conversation today, I want to deliver a personal message. Every day, families across America lose someone they love to an overdose. That's why I've partnered with the CDC Foundation through their COPE Community Overdose Prevention Efforts campaign and committed to matching every donation dollar for dollar up to $25,000. I've spent my life helping people recover from addiction, but if we can get to the place of prevention first, this would help save so many more lives. I hope you'll join me in supporting the CDC Foundation's overdose prevention work at CDCfoundation.org/overdoseprevention. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Today's guest is my friend, George Mumford, someone who's worked behind the scenes with some of the greatest athletes in history, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and multiple championship teams, including working alongside legendary coach Phil Jackson with the Bulls and the Lakers. He's known as the Performance Whisperer. And has helped redefine how elite performers think, lead, and show up under pressure. Thanks for being here, George. I really appreciate it, man. I know how busy you are.

My pleasure.

I set myself apart with Carrera Treatment Center, right? We're not like the typical treatment center.

Yeah,

of course we get you sober and all that stuff. Okay, but that's not where I hang my hat. Where I hang my hat is once you're sober, what do you want to be? What do you want to do? Where do you want to go? Okay, because sobriety isn't its own gift. I don't care what anybody says. You have to be able to replace what you held as most valuable, which is your drugs and alcohol, and replace it with something of equal or greater value. And that's why I have you on the show today, because I don't know anybody who deals with excellence better than you. Peak performance, being in a zone, being on a heater, and getting there more often. Can you talk to my viewers a little bit about that?

Yes. Basically what it comes down to, I'll just say, I'll follow up with what you said. I have this, I took the same energy That I used to chase, you know, or I like to use it in terms of, you know, John Barleycorn or whatever you want to call it, uh, drugs, you know, alcohol, whatever. I took the same energy, the same passion I had following that, uh, and just switched it to, to helping others and making things, bringing more light to the world. So it's the same energy. But it's not guided by self-centered fear. It's guided by this idea of being of service and giving away what you want to keep. So if you want to, if you want to learn something, you teach it. And if you want to keep something, you got to give it away. And so for me, it's about helping every human being. This is my charter, to release the divine spark, the masterpiece within, or whatever you want to call it, help people get their conscious contact of a higher power, whatever it is, and to break out, to unlock so that you can share your authentic self with all of us.

I love that. That's beautiful. You're so right-sized and measured. It's such a pleasure to talk to you. Listen, you've You've coached and helped my two favorite athletes in the world, okay? Become who they are. When Kobe Bryant passed away, I got an alert on my phone, and what it said—it's from Alibu. I am on that alert, and it said there was a. Um, a helicopter crash. And my first thought was, thank God I don't know anybody in a helicopter today. And then it happened. And like everybody in LA, we were in a coma. Nobody could speak. But I remember calling my friend My neighbor across the street. On his phone, he had— he's the lighting guy. He was the lighting guy for Pink Floyd. He's an old-timer like, like us. He's older than me. And he has on his phone the lighting for the Empire State Building. And I called him and I asked him to make the Empire State Building purple and gold. That night. And he said, I can't, the owners are in New Zealand and I'm gonna get in trouble. And I said, dude, you're gonna be a hero because you're mindful and you, and you know that, and you know what time it is.

Okay, do that for me. And he never called me back. But I turned on SportsCenter the next night and it was there. I've never met him, right? My biggest regret, not meeting that man. I have a picture of the Empire State Building, purple and gold, and I have a picture of his daughter's jersey. They made her a Connecticut jersey with the number 2 on it, and they draped it over the chair. When he left basketball is when I fell in love with him, because that guy taught me how to be a better dad. And I just— and taught me how to live with discipline. Like, I remember after he died, I'd be watching all these videos of him. Right? And I remember the one thing that I've taken with me, and that is we do not break contracts with ourself no matter what. And I create some very difficult contracts for myself, and that has always served me well.

That's huge, man. That, that is so powerful. People don't realize That when you make a promise to yourself to go work out and you don't go or you don't do it, how are you going to trust yourself?

If your word doesn't mean shit to you, how could it mean anything to anybody?

Well, it should because we create with the word.

That's right.

That's powerful what you just said.

Yeah.

Extremely powerful.

Dude, I'm such an empath. You too, right? How many times a day you cry?

It's interesting. I don't cry, but I feel deeply. And sometimes I know what to do with it now. When I was a little kid, it was devastating. When somebody moved from my block and they just moved down the street, I was devastated.

Right.

So now I know how to use that to help people and whatnot. But being sensitive doesn't mean you cry, it just means that your heart is open and that you get moved by it. And it moves you to either do something or have compassion and appreciate this idea of— I like to talk about this idea of the non-toothache. You don't appreciate having it or not having a toothache till you get a toothache.

Do you remember what John— Jim Valvano said? What did it say? If you laugh every day, if you cry every day, and if you're in thought every day, that's a great life.

Yes. And so, yes. So for me, it's about being in the moment, feeling whatever I can feel, whatever I'm feeling. I'm feeling it because that's what I'm supposed to be feeling right now. And it's how I relate to it. It's always how I relate to it. If I can make space for it, breathe with it, just be with it a little bit, Like, even now, you know, like I say, to talk about this idea of bare awareness, it's like, okay, if you get butterflies or you're excited or you're anxious or whatever, if you just tune into what that feels like and just notice it and stay on the level of sensation and not get into the story about it, it's going to fade.

So I have a thing that when I get soft and heart-centered, I touch my heart like this.

There you go. There you go, you got it.

And you are just doing it.

That's, that's the thing, man. And it's like, and some things are going to be so— you're never gonna— you never know what's gonna make you cry or make you laugh or whatever. And so my thing is, I don't measure myself, whatever, versus what other people do. They might cry, they might do this, they might do that. I just need to be authentic with how I'm feeling and how I need to relate to it. That's the only thing that matters, really.

What did you do for him? And how did you get his mind right? Because it feels to me like his mind was always right. But better is better. And he was always looking to be better.

I met Kobe actually before when he was, when he was a rookie. I met him, they were playing against Houston or Utah. I don't remember which one, but I went and I met him. But then when I started working with Phil, I got to hang out with him and and talk to him and whatnot. And the amazing thing about Kobe was that he remembered everything that I taught him. He had like a photographic memory, but he's a learner and he's curious and he's got that tenacity, that Mamba Mentality people talked about. All I did was remind him who he was. What I do, Richard, if you really think about it, I keep pointing people back to who they are. Yeah. It's not so much that's what I'm doing. I'm putting each other back to who they are. And so that was it. So whatever the situation, whatever the context, my job is to meet him where he is and help lead him to where he says he wants to go and helping him be the person he needs to be to go to where he wants to go.

So really what you're doing is you're trying to access the best part of somebody and then help it to flourish?

Yes. Yes.

Everybody needs that.

Yeah, that's what, that's what The Mindful Athlete: Secrets to Pure Performance— it's, you know, the 10-year edition of the paperback version that came out 10 years ago, but we changed the title to Mindful Athlete: Secrets to Pure Performance For Everyone.

Better title, more accessible.

Because people look at, oh, I'm not an athlete, whatever. No, it's just for everybody. That's exactly right. Athletics, but it's about everybody because the book is about starting off from the basic premise that you have a masterpiece, you have Buddha nature, uh, Christ consciousness, kuan-yin energy, the divine spark, whatever religion or whatever software you need to use to connect, uh, to the all. or to love. We have that. It's in us, but we have to access it. And one of the philosophers, Martin Buber, he wrote a book called— wrote a lot of books, but his book, The Way of Man. In that book, he talks about that we have a divine spark that's encrusted in a shell and that we have a system of hideouts that we engage in. And our job is to break open Release that divine spark that's in us. And you do that not by running from things, but by embracing life as it is and then allowing your masterpiece to express itself in adversity. That's usually how it goes. It's, in my experience, it's like when you have— sometimes you got to feel powerless before you get access to power.

Sometimes you got to be lost before you're found. It's that willingness. To say yes to life.

Let me go in a different direction. Did you ever meet her, Gianna?

No, I have not met her. I have not. Or I probably saw her when she was little, really little, because I hadn't really been around the Lakers per se at that time. And when I was hanging out with him, I actually— he actually called me and asked me to come out and hang out with him because he wanted to me to help him, you know, work with the elite of the elite. So I spent several days out there with him. No team, nobody, just like in the helicopter. It was just me and him and the 2 helicopter pilots. There was no one there, so I got to hang out with him. So, but it had been 13 years in 2015 since I've been around, you know, been around his family.

The reason I asked was because When she passed with everybody in the helicopter, she was 12.

Okay.

And my daughter was 12.

Wow.

It just put me in fear, you know.

Yeah. So that's— I had the pleasure of working with him or being with him. I don't— it wasn't work. It was just, you know, visiting, I would say, or just, you know, developing a relationship. Being in a, you know, camaraderie and just being able to embrace whatever comes up with full presence.

Have you spoken to the family or his wife? No,

I have not because the work that I do and the way I work with people is very interesting because when I'm working with somebody, working with a team, I don't really have Because of confidentiality and whatnot, I really don't approach any family members or whatnot if they want to, you know, like when I was there physically and they were in the green room, I might interact with them. Or if they're with us, you know, like during the finals, they would normally let us, you know, let family members come. That would be basically the only time that I would have access to them. And so even when he passed, you know, there were all sorts of people there. on stage speaking on his behalf and being in the, in the audience. I, I wasn't invited because they wouldn't know to invite me because my relationship was, was confidential with him. And, uh, and yeah, so, so yeah, I don't really— all I know is what I read in the paper and what I see. Uh, so I really don't know much. I, I know about her. I, I know that he was doing stuff at the Mamba Mentality.

I have been Doing stuff there with, with a young, young athlete when it was still called the Sports Academy before they changed the name and that sort of thing. So yeah, so your answer to your question is no, I don't really know them. They wouldn't know how to contact me or anything like that.

Tell our viewers exactly what it is you do. Your own journey includes recovery, adversity, and transformation. How does that shape the way you coach people? Yes.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that because my own journey, I had to overcome adversity, you know, substance abuse and chronic pain. And I got reminded of that in July because I— August this year because I got shingles and it got my trigeminal nerve. So I was in a lot of pain for like 2 and a half months or something like that again. But my journey has been one of You know, I'm a seeker. You know, I want to know things. I want to help people. And so I just, I don't know, I just started paying attention to my heart, just going inside, looking inside, and trying to, you know, embrace my greatness, find the flow, discover success, like I talk about in my book, Unlocked. So I just, like I said to you, the basic premise is, without recovery, And I'm coming up on 42 years of sobriety in July. So actually, in 3 months from today exactly, I'll be celebrating 42 years. And day at a time, moment at a time sometimes. But so in that process of discovering myself, overcoming the adversity and whatnot, I realized that there was a masterpiece within me, that I had a divine spark, and my job was to, like I said, break it open and release that divine spark in that encrusted shell, get out of the hideouts and be more vulnerable, be more present.

And my recovery and the lessons I learned in recovery, this idea of— how do I want to say it? If you want to learn something, teach it. And if you want to keep something, give it away.

I want to ask you a question because you made a comment And I want to know about it. Okay.

Okay.

You said that you're gonna have 42 years sober. Congratulations. Okay, that's huge. Okay. But you said you do it a day at a time. And then you said, but sometimes I do it a moment at a time.

Yes.

Which would lead some viewers to think that it's a struggle. And

I see what you're saying.

Yes. And let me just finish the thought. Let me just finish the thought.

Yes.

Because you don't have a struggle because you're the guy that gets everybody's mind right. You're the one with peak performance. So you're not— yes, you're sober, but you ain't struggling with sobriety.

No, I'm not struggling with sobriety. But here's the point. People think that you have to be present because there's a struggle. I'm saying you have to be present because That's the only time you have.

That's right.

The only time is now. The only one you could be is you, and all you need is love. So thanks for sharing that, because yeah, I'm not struggling. But here's the thing, I am struggling on some level, but it's not a struggle where I'm trying to stay clean. I'm in a struggle of getting out of my comfort zone and getting comfortable being uncomfortable. So, and I say no struggle, no swag. So I got swag. So, there's always going to be suffering or struggling, but it's not really a struggle if it's like being in a fishnet. If you are trying to get out of it, you get entangled. But if you just be still and know, you'll find a way out. So, you're right. I'm glad you say that because I'm not struggling that way. As a matter of fact, I'm more enthusiastic and excited about life than I ever have been.

Listen. I'm with you. I'm with you 100%. So,

yeah. So, what I said by struggle, but I say, but that's it because sometimes it's interesting. Usually, when we're in difficulty or when there's a sense of urgency, that's when we really hone in. Now, we could be kind of okay, kind of be present, but when we really lock in, that's different. And so, for me, it's when I can remind myself that right now in this moment, I'm here, I'm breathing in, breathing out, and everything is, everything is just the way it's supposed to be.

I get it.

So that's what I mean. So yeah, I know,

I know

it's not about a struggle. It's about embracing what is, man, and letting your love light shine. So thank you for, for, um, for, you know, because that's it. Yes, it's not struggling. It's, it's like every day is like when you lived in hell for 32 and a half years Every day is Christmas, man. Every day is a blessing, man. That's what I'm talking about. And sometimes, I want to stop for a moment and breathe in that greatness, breathe in the peace, the ease, the joy of being fully alive.

You talk about just being. I love that, which sounds simple, but it's incredibly hard. What does that actually look like under pressure?

Under pressure, that looks like—

Let me give you an example. I was watching something, uh, before on your Instagram, and, uh, one of the clips was about Kobe where, uh, he was just too tight. And you said, don't go in looking to score, just don't. And He scored 14 points in the first quarter. That's what I'm talking about.

Yes. Yes. So to be just— it's just to be in the moment and just do what you know to do in that moment. And sometimes I talk about make the next play. Well, why do I say make the next play? Because I have no idea what the context you're going to be operating in. So, whatever the context is, you have to know what your goal is and then what you're trying to do. So, just make the next play because a lot of times, we don't just make the next play. We're thinking either what we just did or what we're going to do. So, being is just being present and just doing what you know to do. It's having an intention and then focusing on that intention in the moment and to express yourself fully and authentically.

So, what'd you tell them exactly? Just don't score. Just go in there and pass the ball around. Keep the ball moving. Play defense.

Kept it real simple. Because I'll give you the context. We were— it was before a game, and I usually don't say anything to players before the game, but I was just watching him. And to me, it seemed like he was trying to score 36 points on one basket. He was trying too hard. Okay. And so what I said to him was, the best way to score is not to try to score.

You basically— what you did was you basically told him to go out and just be of service with the heart of a servant. That's basically what you told him.

Yes. And, and the thing is, and the logic behind it is, I know how he thinks. He's thinking, I'm going to score 32 points, so that means I have to get 8 points each quarter.

That's right.

So if you play the first quarter and you only have 4 points, then the second quarter you got to make up, uh, 4 points. And then now you're trying hard, and the harder you try, the worse it gets. And so I was basically saying, instead of limiting yourself with your thinking. Why don't you just be open to what happens and see what happens? I think he had 16 points in the

first quarter. Well, okay.

Not trying. Got it. But not trying to score is how he scored because now you're open to all the possibilities instead of just looking for narrow possibilities, which actually prevents your ability to actually score more points or to be more present.

That's awesome. A lot of people confuse mindfulness with relaxation. But your work is about performance. How do you explain that difference?

The difference is, the difference is this. You got to be relaxed. That's why in my book, The Mindful Athlete: Secrets to Pure Performance, I say mindfulness is not enough. You got to— what are you mindful of, right? You got to know that. So, mindfulness by itself is not enough because you can be mindful, but you got to know what you're going to be mindful of. And how are you going to be mindful? And so, I talk about these, the superpowers and the thing you need. You need insight or you got to know what it is you're doing. But, if you have insight, you have to have a balance of insight with faith or trust because if you have too much insight, you're cynical. And, if you have too much trust, you're Pollyannaish. So, mindfulness helps you cultivate these abilities and balance these abilities.

Can we do one together? Can we do one together? Can I pick an athlete? And can you tell me?

Yes.

What you would do with him in his situation? Okay. The first thing that comes up for me is Shedeur Sanders. Okay. Do you know who that is?

Yes, I know who he is.

Okay. He got hosed. Just hosed. Okay. And how would you work with him to keep his mind right and stay ready so that way when he gets his shot, he can prove everybody wrong and show everybody who the hell he is?

Yes. So there's no such thing as failure, just feedback.

Okay.

So whatever you're struggling with—

Wait, wait, can you explain that? Because that's— that in its own right is beautiful.

Yeah, yeah. So, people have an idea of when you're an elite performer, you don't look at what's wrong. You focus on— so, you make a mistake. Some people look at it as a reflection of who they are and they identify with the mistake. And the elite performer sees it as an opportunity. What's the lesson I need to learn? It's always the thing. What is it I need to learn? And then, you go back to basic fundamentals. You're a quarterback. Okay, if you're holding on to the ball too long, then you, you have to have a strategy so you don't. So either you stay in the pocket or you run out, or you have some kind of a signal with, with one of your receivers. You know, with, with, with Tom Brady, he always had Gronk, we're always going to go across the middle, and so we're going to hit him, or Julian will do something. So he knew, he knew what, what, what the, what the next play is. So whatever the defense gives you, you have to take it, but you have to be present And not worried on worrying about how you're doing, but focus on what you're doing.

And so you watch film and you learn from it, and you learn from it. And then, but you have to stay attached to the fact that you have everything you need to succeed. You're a bad mofo. You just gotta— if you make a mistake, then it's telling you what you need to learn, what you need to practice.

So what are you going to tell Shador? So what are you going to tell Shador?

I'm going to tell him to just learn these lessons he's getting. He's got to learn those lessons or he's going to keep getting them. So when he's getting shellacked, when they— when you say that, what do you mean? You mean he, he, he doesn't—

What I mean is this guy has been relegated to the bench. He comes in, he's not given the same opportunity that these other kids are given, right? And he did very well with, with the opportunity that he was given. Now he's coming back and he's going to be behind Some other guy that they gave a horrible contract to. Okay, and you know, and that guy ain't gonna do well. Okay, because he's his head. That's who you should really be. You know what, dude? The only you should be working with Deshaun Watson. That's who you should be working with because ever since he had a problem, he ain't the same guy. And that was a speed bump, and he should be able to get over that. But he can't get over that if his mind ain't right, and you're the get. Get your mind right guy.

Yes. Well, here's the interesting thing. What do you remember about recovery? You know, what do we say? It's not for those who need it. It's for those who want it.

Well, that's— I got a problem with that, but go on.

But here's the point. The point is you have to want to get better. You have to be willing to get comfortable being uncomfortable. to do this. This is not for everybody. People would say to me all the time, oh, you know, he needs to work with you. No, he doesn't. He's got to want to work with me.

Right. That's right.

And see, because otherwise, if he's not open, he's not coachable. And that's the one thing about Kobe or MJ or people who are elite— they're coachable because they understand things. So what I would say to him— so you're right, so he should be working with me. But some people, just like I was for years, in denial about anything being wrong. If people just let me do what I want to do, everything's going to be okay.

You've said mindfulness is about awareness. How does that same awareness help someone break out of destructive or addictive patterns?

Yes. So, I talk about— I mean, I'll give you something. I call it the 4 A's. So, there's awareness. And the awareness I'm talking about is not just awareness of something. It's awareness that is— so to be aware of something, you got to accept it. So when I talk about awareness, you got to be able to see it. But sometimes we don't see it because it's painful or we don't accept what's happening is happening. And so when I talk about awareness, I'm talking about mirror mind. It's just reflecting what's there. There's no judgment. There's no— there's an ability to just see it. And when you can see it and accept it, then you can do something about it. So, I talk about the first A is awareness, and that's mirror mind or that's— so, awareness is a kind of awareness, but it's an intuitive awareness, you might say.

It's a noticing and an acceptance.

A noticing and accepting, then a compassionate action. So, I'll give you an example. So, for somebody like the guy you're talking about, he has to see that he's not ready. and accept that he's not ready, and specifically about whether it's, it's when he's in the pocket or his footwork or whatever. And once he accepts he's not ready, then he could do something about it. Then that's a compassionate action.

So he's got to be— so wait, wait, wait. So he's got to know the room. He's got to be self-reflective and know, okay, I'm struggling. I'm not the same guy. I need to get right. That's, that's the noticing. Yeah.

So yes, you're in the pros now, so everything's quicker, faster, and, and, and the playbook is this big, right?

Right.

So you have to realize that you're going to go through the learning curve, you're going to make mistakes, but the idea is to make mistakes and to learn from them and to realize that you are not your mistake. And when you're a rookie, you're gonna make a lot of mistakes, but you listen, you talk to people. It's just like you have to have a cadre of support around you where you have people who are like a blind spot in a fancy car. They can tell you when you're doing really well or when you're— when there's a car there and you don't see it. But I have to warn you that it's there. And I have to be willing to hear, OK, Richard told me that I'm not ready. So I got to listen to him and get specific about how do you know that and what do I need to learn and practice so that I can get ready?

Give me the 3rd A.

3rd A is compassionate action. And that's having a growth mindset and asking, what do I need to do? What do I need to learn? And what do I need to practice? And that's challenging. So, once you get beyond, once you get the acceptance, and then you're willing to be open to being coached and having people help you help yourself, then the compassionate action. And then, even when you do it, it's going to be trial and error. So, you have to be able to assess it afterwards and ask questions like, What worked? What didn't work? And how do I get what didn't work to work?

So really what it's about is someone, when they're ready to change, has to have a mindset of humility. Okay. And then when, and then once they're in that space, they're cracked open and you can give away what you got.

Yes. Yes. That's exactly it. And so when you look at somebody like Kobe, he's very, you got to be curious, interested, And have enough hope and trust that you got everything you need to succeed.

That's right. All right. How does mindfulness as a performance tool translate for someone rebuilding their life after addiction? This is

what I want to know. Yes. Well, it's really as simple as meeting your life where it is and then taking responsibility for it and getting support you need to help with it. And so, um, so when I got out— I'll speak from my own experience— when I, when I came out of the detox and I had to start things, my life was, was— I didn't have a car. And there's a lot of things I had to do. I had to make amends. But the main thing was I had to figure out— I knew enough that I didn't want to lose my job. But you have to be able to take personal responsibility for yourself. I am responsible. I make choices. And then, even though things are happening and I'm in a very precarious situation, I need to be able to connect to a higher power or a belief system that allows me to actually take responsibility and realize I can change. If I don't like what I'm seeing, I can change it. So I'm trying to be this. So basically, for me, it meant that when— for me, it was easy because— it was easier because once I, I got out of the detox and I realized that there was a lot that I could do, then I focused on taking responsibility and, and doing the things I want to do.

But once again, I brought that same That same enthusiasm and excitement to learning.

You work with elite performers and you help them become even greater elite performers. How do you get somebody— I know you don't do this, but how do you get somebody to want to take direction?

Yes. You— I share my experience in a way that empowers them, that mobilizes them, where they can say, oh, I could do that. So you have to have a, what they would call a conversation. I just, to me, is when I share with people how I did it, so then they can see that they can do it. But share it in a way where I'm not judging. I'm just saying, this is how I did it. And as a matter of fact, that's why I write these books, because everybody else can do it too. And I'm trying to get them to change, to create a vision of possibility where they could say, oh, I could do it. I'll give you an example. So on April 1st, 1984, a friend of mine took me to an AA meeting. And when he showed up at my house, I'm looking at that dude and saying, okay, he's a dope fiend like me and he's clean. How'd that happen? You know? And so I went to the meeting and he showed me some things and it was challenging. But I saw because if he could do it, I could do it.

And so, he altered my vision of possibility where he said, hey, man, I got it. Here's how I got it. You interested?

I love it. Hey, what surprises you about how similar the mental battles are between elite athletes and people in recovery?

It's, it's, it's— I say it was surprising, but it's also surprising when I look at it from a certain perspective. When I realized we all have the same ability inside of us in terms of our ability to, to, to make choices and to do things, it's exciting. It's surprising, but it's exciting. And it's just different levels or— Different things, but it's still the same, the same drill. It's, it's exactly the same. I don't care who you are. I work with inmates. I work with everybody. It doesn't matter. What matters is that you understand that you, as a human being, you have a body, mind, heart, and soul, spirit, and you have to develop those parts of yourself. I don't care who you are, what you're doing. So you have to take responsibility and realize that whatever I hold in mind, I manifest.

When you worked with Michael Jordan, okay, what separated him mentally from everybody else?

First off, when I met Michael, uh, he's vibrating at a different level. I mean, his, you know, his presence, his focus, you can feel it. Or at least I can. I'm, I'm kind of an empath, so I can feel that stuff. But the main thing was when I saw him and he came back in 1995, uh, when he practiced, he act— he looked like he was trying to make the team.

Right.

So no, nobody outworked him. And I think that has to do with the, the difficulty he had in high school when he got cut from his high school basketball team. And so he didn't withdraw energy, he brought more energy in. He was putting more effort in and whatnot. So to me, it's his tenacity, his will, but his mental, his presence, but his ability to focus and stay focused and his ability to push, to get comfortable being uncomfortable.

I think it was twofold. I think it was starting over from the bottom.

Yeah.

Riding the buses in AA, right?

Yeah.

And I think it was hearing the whispers coming back after being gone for a year and a half that he ain't the same, he got older, he's, he's ripe for the picking, and all that other noise that he was hearing. And then he just came back and just wanted to kill people.

Yeah, I guess that, I guess that's one way of looking at it. In my mind, You know, he knows that he has to develop challenges for himself so he's engaged, so he's in that high state of arousal. And it's a high state of arousal, but he's got to be challenged, find something that allows him to just raise his energy, raise his intensity to another level. And I think there are a number of things that happen. But I think one of the things, just being away from the game, I think that helped him with the grieving from his father.

For sure. For sure.

Okay. And he tried baseball. And then I think that strike, he didn't want to cross it, walk across the picket line. And I think there were so many other things that were getting in where he said, okay, I'm ready to go back. And so he just came back. And even when he came back, he had to have— see, because I believe after winning 3 in a row, That he didn't have the same— and then when his father died, he didn't have the same passion for the game, and I think he needed to take a break.

That's right. Hey, listen, I— ever since I've been a kid, okay, before I knew I was doing it, I've always manufactured disrespect where none was intended, right? Just to get myself going.

Yeah.

And then as I got older, I was like, oh, Michael does that. Oh, Kobe did that. Okay. And, you know, it's okay when you're in sports, right? But when you're in business, you can create a little wreckage that way if you're not mindful about it, right?

Yes.

There's got to be a better way. than pissing yourself off all day long so that you can move, uh, uh, with adrenaline. It's hard for me to access my best self other than that, or when I get so quiet with complete humility. And I'm talking to God. Other than those 2 times, I have a real hard time accessing excellence.

Yes. So, that's what we would call an external locus of control. Or that is because when you get into anger or whatever, it gets you to a higher vibration. But to me, I used to do that. That was my warrior spirit of pushing through. Now I'm pursuing excellence and wisdom with grace and ease.

I want that.

Yeah. And the way you do that is, is, and I say this, I find my— the way to find myself is to forget myself in service. And that's when I find myself. So it's, it's like looking for— because Michael started saying, he went from that to saying, okay, so we had Frank Hamlin on the, on the staff. And he said, oh, I want to get a championship for Frank. And so you start having positive things. But that negative thing, you're absolutely right, it's a habit. And it worked with you before, but as you, uh, if you level up the pyramid, you got to have a softer, easier way because you can't sustain the anger or the frustration or the negative emotion, and that affects your ability to focus. Exactly.

And you're not as strategic.

Yeah, so you're like this, but I'm saying you could be— you can do it with grace and ease. Just have An intention to serve, an intention to get, to forget yourself in service to find yourself. It's for the highest good. That's what it is.

Do you know what else works? I was, I was at a mental lapse when I, and you brought it up for me, when I operate in a way that is completely soft. So like if I'm dealing one-on-one with an alcoholic or an addict, That's, that's my highest self. I can stop the crazy, connect, and give him exactly what he needs. Okay. Without question, from a place of, uh, uh, service with the heart of a servant. Okay.

Yes.

When I'm in that space, that's as good as it gets. Unfortunately, the only time I show up for that is when I'm dealing with a child or an addict. Everybody else I got no— doesn't get that, that version of me.

So what would happen if you saw them as a child or addict, everybody you ran into?

I love you. And I'm not sorry.

You know, and that's what I do is—

No, take that in. I said I love you.

Oh, I love you too.

There it is.

I love you. That's what it's all about. So let me put it this way. So I, when I go and I present to people and I'm talking to like I'm talking to you, I'm relating to you, Richard, but I'm relating to you on the level of masterpiece, on your divine spark or the masterpiece within. That's how I'm seeing you.

You see my best— you're talking to my best self right now?

Yes. And even though it may be expressing something else, I know underneath that, because you were just talking about being in the eye of the hurricane. And when you're in the eye of the hurricane, you do stuff And you come out of it. It's like when you're in the zone of flow. Let's talk about that. People love that. When you're in the zone, there's one thing that's interesting. There's a lot of things, but the main thing is—

Don't talk to your girlfriend or your wife. Sorry, I just— see, I busted your flow. Go on.

No, no, no, no, no. It's still there. The thing is, there's no self-consciousness there. You disappear. You become one with your activity, with what you're doing.

There's no thinking. It's all muscle memory.

The silence, dude, is that be still and know, right? Or I say be still until you know, which is what you just talked about doing.

That's right.

You see what I'm saying? But it's there, it's already inside of us. But how do you access it? By not trying to do anything. Just be. Just, just, just say, okay, this is my intention and I'm going to allow it to happen, but I'm going to be ready to pounce or ready to, to move when it's ready. You see what I'm saying? I tell my guys Be calm, but be ready to pounce, dude. You can't be too chilling where you're not willing. Okay? You got to have a certain level.

So, that brings me up to the next question because Kobe Bryant said you helped him learn how to just be.

That's right.

What shift did you see when that clicked?

Well, the first part was when he scored 16 points in the first quarter because what he was doing was he was just, he was being like water. He was just allowing the opportunities. It's like, like mindfulness is this ability to let things speak to you in its own language or to create space between stimulus and response where you're just letting things speak to you. And when you come out of that silence, there's a knowing, there's a wisdom that, that tells you, okay, do this, do that. Because as long as you're up here, that's a problem. But if you're in here and you're just being, but you set the intention up here, then you set the intention and then you allow it to happen.

I love that, man. Some people are going to listen to this and go, what the hell did he just say? Okay, just stay in there and watch this a couple times because what you missed the first couple times, you'll get the next time because this is critical. All right. Phil Jackson built championship teams with the Los Angeles Lakers and the Bulls using mindfulness. and philosophy. How did you help make that real inside a locker room full of elite athletes?

How did I do that? By talking to them about this idea of being a spiritual warrior.

I love that. That would so gravitate with them.

Yeah. And not only as a spiritual warrior, but I know everybody's interested in being in flow. Or the zone. So mindfulness makes you flow ready, zone ready. But here's the conundrum. If you try to get in the flow, you won't get in the flow. But there's these conditions that if you develop those conditions, you will get in flow.

So what I take that to mean, if you were to say that to me and I was a Kobe or a Michael, right? What I would take that to mean is don't shoot the ball at all. Okay, move the ball, set picks, get rebounds, have assists, steal the ball, block, play defense, right? And then, once you've like mastered that, you're in the flow. And then, you're rolling.

Yeah. Well, the flow is— there's flow triggers. Steven Kotler talks about it a lot in his Flow Project. But the book, The Art of the Impossible or whatever. Out of the Impossible is that there's flow triggers. So flow trigger is one thing he talks about is being curious, curiosity, passion, and purpose. So you got to be on purpose. And the interesting thing about the way that Phil's teams work, you got to have mindfulness because it's all about reading and taking what the defense gives you, but you have to master the fundamentals.

That's right.

And so to get in To get in the flow, you have to have clear goals. You're getting immediate feedback. So you can see where the mindfulness is there. Am I— is it clear? What am I getting back? And then in the immediacy of experience, making adjustments, making adapting. So you may— for— it's really simple. It's like, so if you're a 3-point shooter, like say Steph Curry, and when you have the ball and if they close out on you, You up fake and drive by them. So it's like you take what the defense gives you. So if they lag off of you, you, you know, you, you step back and shoot. So you got them on a string. That, that, that's how that works. And so you have to be open-minded to say, I don't know, because what happens to us, Richard, is we have something, we have a great play, then we try to replicate it instead of saying, okay, that's done now, I just got to see. So that's where— One of the flow triggers, novelty is really helpful.

I want to ask you a quick question because the basketball is completely changed. We've seen all the changes because we're older, right? I heard someone the other day talk about how the triangle would not work in today's NBA. Okay. Now I want you to think about this, right? Would it work today? In the NBA? Not just the triangle. I'm talking about Phil Jackson's offense triangle. Would this work today in today's NBA? And if so, why?

Because it's based on principles. So we think it's triangles. That's just one form of it, but it's playing out of a format.

Wait, wait. So would it work? Let's ask that first.

Yes. Yes, it would work. And here's why I believe it would work. Is because principles are timeless, universal, and self-evident. So basic fundamentals— if you want to be a master, you got to master the fundamentals. And so you think it's a certain thing. No, it's the philosophy of the triangle offense. It's a philosophy of player movement, ball movement. It's a philosophy of taking what the defense gives you. You know, if you're on offense, you want penetration, and if you can get middle penetration, that's great. If you're on defense, you don't want penetration. You stop the ball. So, these principles don't change. How they manifest, they can change. But the principles are there. But people think the triangle is just this thing. And the interesting thing is I know about stuff. When you play in the system, you have more freedom.

The reason I think it works and exactly what you said, but in addition to that, I think it works because of something that Coach Saban said once. He said, you don't do things over and over again until you get them right. You do things over and over and over again until you can't get them wrong. And that's a Phil Jackson thing. And, and so that level of preparation, I think, destroys these kids today. All right. High performers often struggle more with pressure than success. How do you help someone stay grounded when everything around them is so intense?

Yes, that's where we come up with the eye of the hurricane. You can be in the storm or you can be in the eye of the storm. You are not the storm. But here's what I'm going to say about that. It's a perception. So if you perceive this as a roadblock, it's a roadblock. If you perceive it as a stepping stone, it's a stepping stone. And so there's no such thing— I say no struggle, no swag, no pressure, no diamonds. Pressure is a privilege. So it's how you interpret it. So some people see when you're out of your comfort zone that, oh, you're over your head. Other people see it as, oh, I'm getting closer to the zone.

That's right.

I'm getting closer to flow. So it's all about your perception. And that's why I'm saying, because if you think about it, flow triggers are like, you know, this idea flow trigger has to do with unpredictability. Complexity, keeping your mind fresh, uncertainty. All of those things are flow triggers. But it's not the thing itself. It's how you relate to it and how you think whether you can thrive in that situation.

So really, what you're saying is, okay, you're the only one that can keep you from getting where you want to be. Okay.

And you decide what's pressure or not. And let me give you a statistic because I want this to be grounded. Statistics. Do you know 90% of our long-term happiness is predicated on how our brain and our nervous system interprets experience? Not 10%, 90%.

Okay.

So, when you're an elite athlete, you don't see it as a curse. You see it as an opportunity. You see it as a challenge that you can meet.

What's the difference between someone who breaks under pressure and someone who doesn't?

It's their ability to create space between stimulus and response and to choose to be able to do that. So, it's realizing that that pressure, you interpret that pressure as an opportunity. You see the pressure not as something that's going to diminish you, but something that's going to bring the best of you.

We're seeing more High performers struggle publicly. When you look at someone like Tiger Woods, what do people misunderstand about the pressure at that level? And how should people apply what you teach in their own lives today?

You got to be who you are. You got to, you got to, you got to get with yourself, be with yourself, be still and know.

Some people call Tiger— let's go to the Tiger thing

The tiger thing is he has some habit patterns that manifest. So, when you're in stress, when you're in a high state of arousal, when you're in survival mode, you're 40% dumber, number one. You get emotionally hijacked. And, what you have to do is you have to understand that, okay, I'm in the fight, flight, freeze. Now, if you can use the fight to get out of it and develop yourself or transform, or you get to freeze and you keep doing the same thing, But once you get in, like we talk about the hungry, angry, lonely, and tired. So, if you look at it that way, if any of those 4 things show up, you're not going to be— you're going to get hijacked. You're not going to think, but you're not going to be your best self. You're not going to access that spirit within you. It does not. And so, if you understand that and understand, oh, it's a— I'm in the fear mode. Because once you know you're in survival mode, and this is what this relates to what we were talking about before. First thing you got to do is, oh, I'm in survival mode, and how do I get out of it?

But I have to embrace it first. That's the first A, the awareness, the acceptance, then the compassion action, which is— the compassion action is, is just to pray for myself and just say, okay, oh, I understand when people are feeling this, why they can't see things. And then you focus on love, or you focus on helping somebody, you get out of it. Then you realize it's the glasses I have on. If I have on The fear glasses, the 2 wolves, the fear glass. My brain is programmed to see danger. So, 9 out of 10 thoughts are going to be negative. Just, that's just the way it is. But if I get on a love glasses like this, man, I'm looking at it, oh, that's a great opportunity. Oh, that's interesting. That's cool. I wonder what we can do with that. What's the lesson?

With the new edition of The Mindful Athlete out, what feels most relevant right now And how can people apply these tools in everyday life?

It's what I was just talking about. Just this idea that realize that you have a masterpiece within and that the adversity is an opportunity for you to express your greatness. And you have to look at it like, okay, this is what's happening. I have to take personal— I am responsible. I choose my, you know, I have awareness. I am responsible. So what I teach is basically self-awareness, self-regulation, which is your ability to regulate your thoughts, feelings, your behavior, even how you see things to get to self-mastery. And so the idea is you can control things that happen to us. You may not be able to control things now, but you always have a choice to choose your attitude and what you bring to it, your response to it. That's what you have. You have that ability of choice no matter who you are, no matter being— whatever happened to me, it doesn't matter. What matters is how I respond to it. If I can relate to it in a way that empowers me, excites me, gets me motivated to do something, even if it's just to say, oh— There's a special called Soul Power, and there's one ABA guy And he's in the hospital destitute and everything.

And the photographer says, oh, I don't want to take your picture. And he said, no, I want you to take my picture because I want my brothers in the ABA who are not getting a pension or anything, I want people to know what it's like. He was willing to do that for the highest good. Okay. So we can get out of ourselves and say, how can we choose or just connect with the heart and have compassion. Just like me, that person, I don't like them, but they're suffering and I suffer, and I connect with them on a, on a human level, on a spirit level. Just realizing everybody is choosing the good, they just may be ignorant.

George, that was beautiful. Let me ask you a question. Is there anything that I left out or anything you wanted Uh, talk about or tell the viewers before we go?

Yes, you have a masterpiece. You have a divine spot, Kuan Yin, um, uh, Buddha consciousness, Christ consciousness, whatever you want to call it. We have it. And my hope is that we all will embrace it, find the flow, discover success, and share it with the rest of us for the highest good.

Amen.

Amen.

Where can people find you?

Yeah, so they can go to my website, georgemunford.com. I have a YouTube channel, you can check me out there, uh, but, uh, and, or if they're interested, they can send an email to connect@georgemunford.com. See you next Tuesday.

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