Transcript of Lighthouse Parenting: Raising Resilient Kids | Dr. Ken Ginsburg

When we do for our children and they do not learn to do for themselves, they will not be able to function when they are not with us. And the line that I use more than any other is preparation is protection.

If someone has a problem with substance use disorder, please call One Call Placement. That's 888-831-1581. And if we can't help you, we'll make a referral to someone who can. Please, we're out of time. One Call Placement is affiliated with Carrera Treatment Wellness and Spa and One Method Treatment Centers. Before we start the conversation today, I want to deliver a personal message. Every day, families across America lose someone they love to an overdose. Many of those deaths are preventable when communities have the right education, resources, and support. That's why I've partnered with the CDC Foundation through their COPE, Community Overdose Prevention Efforts, campaign and committed to matching every donation dollar for dollar up to $25,000. I've spent my life helping people recover from addiction, but if we can get to the place of prevention first, this would help save so many more lives. I hope you'll join me in supporting the CDC Foundation's overdose prevention work at CDCfoundation.org/cope. You can also visit the link below in the show notes to donate. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Every parent thinks they're protecting their kid until one day they realize they're not. I sit across from families all the time asking the same question.

How did we get here? The anxiety, the isolation, the substance use. So where does it actually break? And more importantly, how do you build a child who can handle real life without falling apart? Our guest today, Dr. Ken Ginsberg, has spent his career answering that question. He's a pediatrician and one of the leading voices on teen mental health and resilience, working with families across the country and developing a framework for building real strength. Not just avoiding problems. His concept of lighthouse parenting challenges everything most parents think they're supposed to do. And if you can get it right, it can change the trajectory of your child's life. Welcome to the show, Ken. Doctor, you work on building resilient kids. I deal with the ones where that didn't happen. Where does it break?

That's a really powerful question. I prefer not to think of any human being as broken. And even though they might be living through profoundly difficult challenges, and even though their behaviors may be completely undermining to them and self-destructive, I think that we begin always by trying to look at a human being and think about all that is good and right about them. And if there— I had to answer your question about where it breaks, it would be that not everybody feels seen, heard, or worthy of being loved. And when they don't feel that way, they're going to seek approval somewhere, someplace, in some way that is not always healthy to them. So, when I think about my career as a guy who thinks about resilience, I don't have a lot of really fancy things to say except for that people are deserving of love and people are deserving of unconditional attention. And when we can get adults to be the kind of people that young people need and deserve in their lives, we're going to see a lot of problems go away.

He's the blame the parent guy.

I'm the support the family guy, not the blame the parent guy. Those are very, very different perspectives. Nobody responds to being told what they're doing wrong. Nobody. People need to be uplifted. They need to be empowered. And blaming a parent is— you're already behind the game. You're supporting the parent and you're leveraging what they have, which is love.

Okay.

And you're letting them know that that's the foundation that begins.

Look, I'm all about support. Okay. That's in Blocking and Tackling for Your Kid. That's— I wrote that book. Okay. Are kids actually struggling more than in past generations, or are we just more aware of it now?

I think that's a really complicated question. It's a question that people always want. People always want me to give answers in terms of the numbers. So there's no question that there are some kids who are suffering. No question. But what is also true is that in past generations, when people were suffering, they were silent. I was one of those kids, right? So, when I was suffering for a very short period of my life, which was at this point 48 years ago, right? I was silent. So, point number 1, for sure, some kids are suffering. Point number 2, Let's be thankful that they are speaking about the fact that they're suffering. And point number 3, let's level set about what mental health is. One of the greatest mistakes that we've made, I believe emphatically, is in equating mental health with being happy. And when we have engaged a generation or a generation of parents who believe that they are good parents or not that their children are healthy or not, or individuals believe that they're healthy or not based on what they're experiencing happiness, we're setting a generation up to fail. You're not supposed to be happy all the time.

You're supposed to be able to be resilient, to bounce back, and to make wise choices when life is awful. And we have to help people understand if their parent gets mad at them, Um, be sad. If your boyfriend breaks up with you, be sad.

Doctor, how do we deal with this when every, uh, feeling is, uh, pathologized? How do we do that? And, and just to elaborate even more than that, the DSM creates new disorders every, every edition, right? And they do it for a multitude of reasons. But one of the most important reasons they do it is so that you can bill for it. If it's not in there, you can't bill for it. What do we do around this?

So I think that I'm going to get back to kind of my territory, not refuting the DSM, but really supporting that human beings have a wide range of emotions and that they can be normal. And that what makes them not normal is when they respond in self-defeating or undermining ways. And it begins with, I agree with you, not pathologizing the fact that you're supposed to have a range of emotions. Anger's okay sometimes. If something has created anger in you, it's okay to express it. Sadness is okay. Confusion, my God, if you're not confused right now, then you're not paying attention to the universe. Right? And we have to stop telling kids that you're supposed to feel good all the time. And as someone who's a child and adolescent advocate and who loves kids with all my heart and soul, we have to stop making them think that every adult around them is destroyed or overjoyed by every move they make. They have to become comfortable again, falling down, having— learning how to get back up and knowing that the adults are not going to come in as rescuers, but they're going to be coaches.

When I was having my first child, my ex and I would go to early childhood development talks all the time. I remember the last one I think we saw right before the child was born was Danny Siegel's talk. Okay, so we would go see all these, you know, people that really knew. And thank God, because I had horrible modeling. Okay, but you know, I was 43 years old having my first kid. And I want— I thought that passed me by. Right. And I was so grateful to have a child because as you know, Okay, as a father, okay, you know, people think they know what love is. But until you have a child, you don't know. You think you do, but you don't. Right. And so when I'm sitting there with my child, and the first time I had my phone in my hand, God bless my ex, she comes over, takes the phone, she goes, hey, you want to start treating your— you want to end up treating your kid? I said, no. She goes, then get down on his level. Okay? Pay attention like he's the most important thing in the world. Okay?

And when he goes, he knows what he's talking about. He just can't get it out. So you just look at him and go, wow.

Well, I gotta tell you, that's some brilliant advice you received. You know, I walk down the street, you know, as you know, I write a lot of parenting books. People think I'm a parenting expert, which I somewhat am. But when people come and they, you know, their sentences often begin with, what should I say? And then blank, blank, blank. What should I say? This situation, that situation. And we need to help parents understand that it is their presence that matters. It is them showing up that matters. It is literally getting down on their knees and understanding that the child is the expert in their own life.

And, and check this out because you're going to miss this part and you're going to go, wow, you're the best. When the kid looks at you, when the kid's just independent play, right? And then they get scared because you weren't present and they turn around and if they see you, that does what?

That helps them feel secure and know that they're safe. The example, when I work with people who have chronic pain or whatnot, and I help them to understand how a human being reacts to an experience, I bring them back to watching an 18-month-old fall. When an 18-month-old falls, they fall down on their knees. And it hurts because hurting on your knees hurts. But they haven't made the decision about how much it hurts until they turn around and they look at their parent. If the parent is crying and acting like the kid is broken, the kid is screaming. And if the parent goes, get up, little man, you're okay, the kid goes and gets up.

So true. So true.

Same pain. Richard, I have to go back a few minutes. Can I do that? You said something really powerful, and I want to respond to it.

Okay.

You, you made 2 statements. One is that you don't know what love is going to be like until you have a child. And having a child is, in truth, like having your heart on the outside of your body.

For sure.

And you feel like you need to protect that child at all times. And I'm all about protection, but let's remember that protection is not overprotection, hovering, or fixing. It is preparing and letting them know that you believe they can get back up and you're not going anywhere.

You're 1,000% right. The benefit of a skinned knee, right? I get, I get that. Who wrote that?

Wendy Mogul. The point is that our children will fall down. That's what is called life. And what makes us resilient is learn how to get back up. To get back up, we have to have a certain degree of confidence. Where does confidence come from? It doesn't come from us showering praise on the children, nor does it come from us saying to them, I'm going to do this for you. Let me help you with that. Because the implication is I don't believe you can do it on your own.

It—

they have the confidence to get back up because you don't see them as having been broken in the first place. You don't see this mistake as a disaster. You see it as a learning opportunity. And you will trust that they will get up in a path that they choose because they're the experts in their own life. And you will support them but not do for them. But you will support them and be fully present and loving. That is what gives them what's called co-regulation. It's your brain, the bottom parts of your brain saying to the bottom parts of their brain, you're chill, dude. You got this. Right? And so, that is key to helping our children know that they can recover and not just recover, grow.

Yeah. Good. Now I want to go back a couple minutes because I set you back. Okay. You were like, what? I, you were close to walking out of here almost. Okay. When I said he's the blame the parent guy, right? You were offended by it as you should have been because you didn't know what I meant by it. So let me elaborate. The reason I'm the blame the parent guy, and we're going to get to the family systems part because What you do around family systems, that's where the magic happens. Okay? That's everything. Why am I the blame the parent guy? Because as a father, okay, we only have one job, whether we know it or not, only one. And that is to make certain that our children are okay in the world. When we're gone, that's it. Whether these people can articulate it or not is irrelevant. We know that's true. Okay, and man, if if you didn't get down on their level, if you didn't make them feel important, if you didn't meet their basic needs as a child, if you didn't, if you weren't present. And not always preaching, okay, so that you weren't a bad time, okay, then it is your damn fault when your kid goes sideways because you could have prevented it.

Now, I'm not going to speak for the mothers, but I'm a man and I have responsibility. I take responsibility. If I have 1% responsibility for an outcome, it's my fault because I could have done better. I could have, I, I could have dived into that 1%. So for me, okay, and especially, you know, you're in the prevention game. By the time they get to me, they're wrecked. So let's give you an example. I tell the parents, well, listen, uh, uh, you got to cut this kid off. He's not working. He didn't finish school. He's got gas cards. He's got a black card. He's He's got, he's got a Benz. He's got, you know, he's got all these things. He's spending 40, 50 grand a month. Okay, why should he get sober? And they won't do it, right? So this and more. Okay, the, the fathers, right, who, you know, these kids can't measure up and then they beat the shit out of them instead of, you know, cultivate what they're good at and and support that, right? It's just, I'm the blame the parent guy. Now it's your turn.

Yeah. So let's, there's a bunch of things that I want to say. So I never came close to walking out. You said that. But what I want is to engage parents, to empower parents, to tell them what they need to do to support their child. If I was going to think in terms of what my life is really defined as, I want— or my life mission, I want to make it so that the adults in young people's lives know how to be the kind of people their kids deserve. And sometimes I work with professionals and sometimes I work with parents. And I do a lot of speaking. And when I begin— when I end talks, I end with very few points. And the points are that what you are giving to your child now has lifelong implications. Why do we love? So our children know they're worthy of being loved. Why do we listen respectfully? So our children learn they should be heard. Why are we relentless in our support? So our children know nobody should ever give up on them. Why do we see them as experts in their own lives? So they will always understand they have the power to make choices.

So what parents do is essential not only while they're— your kid— you're in front of your kid, it is essential to who your child becomes forever. So I think that parents are unbelievably important. I also believe that they shouldn't give up on their kids. And I hope that your listeners understand what you mean by the words cut off. You are not cutting them off emotionally.

Ever.

You are, but this is a really important thing because it gives them the power to remain involved while still making the child learn from their own errors, right? Because I will tell you, I don't just— I'm not just in the prevention business, by the way, Richard. I take care of youth experiencing homelessness, right? That's my main clinical focus.

Are you working with a charity for that?

Covenant House International, Covenant House Pennsylvania. It's the largest organization in the world that serves youth experiencing homelessness. The point is that we need parents to understand that you do not enable your child by doing for them, by not allowing them to learn from their mistakes, but you never cut them off emotionally. Otherwise, you're sending them to go out alone in the boat without the rope to come back.

No, no, of course. Of course. Let's go. Let's go back a minute. The parent thing, 1,000% correct. But so am I. Okay. Because what happens is they get— these kids get to me with parents like that. Right. I want to talk a little bit about what you do in the family systems work, right? To get parents who couldn't find their ass with their fingers to now make them masters of how to have conversations in a great family unit that's getting well and more well all the time?

Right. So the first thing that you have to do with parents of adolescents is to remind them that they matter because so many of them think they can't make a difference. And part of that is that they have bought into the mythology about adolescence. Adolescents don't care what their parents think. They don't like adults. Adolescents think they're invincible. These things are not true. Adolescents are hungry for adult guidance, right? They don't want to be controlled by their parents. They want to be guided by their parents. That's why my parenting approach is lighthouse parenting. You're not hovering. You're not doing for. You are shining a path and you are remaining stable for them always to return to. And you are being a solid role model and a clear communicator.

From a distance.

From the distance they need at the time. There are moments where your child literally needs a hug and you're holding their hand. There are moments where they need to learn to fall and to recover themselves. But what should always happen, no matter how distant you are physically, is they always have to know they can return to you, right? They always need to know that. That's lighthouse parenting. And so we begin with helping families know you really matter. And then the most impactful thing I do, honestly, is put the emotions on the table. Like, if you are angry, it's because you care. You don't give a crap if you don't care. And when there's anger in both directions, that tells me that people are caring. When I begin a relationship, as I think you know, everything I write, everything I do in the professional world is a strength-based approach. Doesn't mean you deny the problems. I live in the problem world. But what I know is that to bring a human being back, you have to focus on what is good and right about them. You have to not just tell them what not to do, you have to tell them why it is harmful to them because it gets in the way of who they could be.

And what parents can be is unbelievably important in this system.

Why?

Because they love their child, because they know everything that is good and right. They know everything that makes them want to tear their hair out, and they choose to love. That is deeply, deeply protective. So after helping parents know that they matter, which means getting past the myths, I will then say, tell me what you love about this kid. Tell me what your favorite thing about this kid is. And I can get— I make parents cry for a living. Like, everybody knows that, right? Because when you've been so angry at a kid and then you're able to say, the reason I'm so angry is because I love you so much, I don't know how to fix it. Boom. It's not your job to fix it. It's your job to help him know He can fix it and you will be by his side, but he has to make choices, the life choices that will be affirming instead of destructive.

You know what's, you know, it's, you know, it's a problem for me.

Yeah.

Okay. I got all that and I'm better at it with my boy than I am with my girl for sure. But what I don't, what bothers me the most is when I see a disaster coming, right? And I go, hey buddy, uh, let me tell you, I, I can see that how this is gonna play out. This is, this is gonna happen, and then that's gonna happen, and then that's gonna cause that to happen, and this is what you're gonna get. Thanks for sharing. That's it. It's like he don't care. He don't want to learn. He don't want it, right? I mean, they don't. Okay. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they do if you have the trust and they're in the right headspace and I've come at him soft and the whole thing, right? But we want to help them not wreck the car. Okay. I mean, we know they're going to wreck the car. I don't give a shit. Everybody wrecks their first car. I don't want a fatality in the car.

Well, it so happens to be that I did research on how to prevent car crashes. And it so happens to be that parents who took a balanced approach to parenting had kids who were half as likely to be in crashes. What does it mean to have a balanced approach to parenting? It's the Lighthouse Parenting. That's why I write books called Lighthouse Parenting. It's to tell people how to do what we know. You are supposed to have clear, definitive boundaries and rules. But when you set the clear boundaries and rules, if you just say, you'll do what I say, why? Because I said so, kids run. But if they know that your boundaries and rules are not stupid rules designed to control them, but they're the rules that are designed to keep them safe. And why do you have rules to keep them safe? Because you love them. because you love them. So it's the balancing act of, I love you so much, and therefore I cannot allow you to do blank because my job is to protect you. That is lighthouse parenting. That is balanced parenting. And it just so happens to be that because you brought up car crashes, I did work that demonstrated that, that actually— that you were much less likely to have car crashes with that style of parenting.

So, let me go back. You know, when your child was 2 years old, you set certain rules. You let them, if you were like a decent parent, you let them skin their knee, you let them knock over the cookie jar, and I think you probably let them draw on the walls occasionally.

Right.

But you didn't let them stick a fork in the electric socket. Hopefully, you put a cover on it. Well, you didn't let them put their hand on the stove and you didn't let them run in the streets. So when adolescence comes, you have to ask yourself, is this a hand on the stove moment? And if it's a hand on the stove moment, you jump in and you do whatever the heck it takes to prevent them from burning themselves. For example, getting back to driving, no, you may not get in that carload of kids. when I see beer in the car? No. But for those things that just feel like they are potentially dangerous to, um, to you, but that's because of your anxiety. That's because of how much you want to protect your kids.

Yeah, the kids get hosed in that, in that scenario all the time.

Yeah, I mean, they, they need to be able to live, and your job Ultimately, what you want is to raise kids to be absolutely independent and completely interdependent with you. That's what you want. You want, you know, you said you had your first kid in the 40s. Well, when you're 120 and they're 80, you know what? I hope you're still very close. And the key to being very close to an enduring relationship is to not be controlling but to be a guide. When a kid feels controlled, they rebel.

Acceptance and mutual respect.

Will you say it again?

Acceptance and mutual respect.

Yes. And now let's get back to that respect idea because we keep circling around this concept of what it means to help a child. For a child, we keep circling around to the idea of kids being the experts in their own lives. Because when I say that to families, you see parents go, right? So they have to understand what we mean. We are not saying look the other way. We are not saying that your kid is wiser than you, more experienced than you, has a better idea of what life looks like than you. We're not saying that. You retain the wisdom. This is a strategy to engage your child in partnership. Your child will engage in partnership when they understand that you know that they understand what their real lives look like. So I don't care if your kid is 4 years old. I just—

stop, stop, stop, stop, because I want to understand that. So if they feel known by us?

If they feel every human being needs to be seen, known, and understood.

Or they can't, or they can't, or they can't ever love anybody because they'll never feel the love.

Amen to that, Richard. But that wasn't the specific point I was making.

No, of course not.

Suppose you give them advice about their peers, but you actually don't know what it's like to be in their school. You don't actually know about the bully that is affecting the kid in the seat next to them and how that's affecting your child. So when you give advice, it is going through a filter in their head, which says—

You don't know what's going on in my life.

And how do I apply this in my life? On the other hand, when you come in and give advice And you say, tell me how you're going to do that. Tell me what might get in the way. Tell me what this looks like in your world. Then you're acknowledging them as the expert in their own life. And what that enables them to do is make mistakes more safely with you. If when you ask the question, what does this mean in your life? How will you apply this in your life? what might get in your way. When you do that, you allow the child to wrestle in your presence and make some real-world mistakes in your presence. So for example, you say to them, I want you never to use drugs, okay? Which is really good sound advice rooted in safety. And then in the kid's world, they're like, you have no idea how much I want Billy to like me, and Billy thinks cool kids smoke, right? You— unless you know that, you're not going to help him think through how to maintain friendship with Billy and not do the drugs.

I've got, I've got news for you, Doctor. If one of the parents doesn't know that about their kids, they're in a lot of trouble.

Do you mean who their friends are?

Who their friends are, what's going on with them. I mean, I always, I always go, tell me the drama. Because they love to talk about the drama. That's how— that question is gold. It took me forever, took me 10 years to get that question right.

That is a brilliant question. Because what you've done, Richard, by using that one question—

I didn't hear you again. Could you say that again?

Let me say it really loudly and spell it out. That is brilliant. B-R-I-L-L-I-A-N-T. Why?

So good to me.

Because what you have done by saying, tell me the drama, is not only are you saying dish, you are saying, I'm not going anywhere. I'm not afraid of complexity. I want to know your truth.

Right?

And By doing that, as opposed to an open-ended question, did you have a good day? How was school?

Right.

How's your friends? Right? Those questions are just going to be answered with fine, yes, no. And then you don't know your kid. But by being open-ended and available and showing that you do not fear the answer, you are able to become who you're supposed to be, the sounding board. You are able to become the human who someone can tell what's going on in their life. And you don't go back and say, okay, do this, because then they run. You just hear them and you say, huh, well, what might work?

Do you know what I do with the kids when we sit there and they're having a problem or whatever it is? And I say, I always say, do you want to know what I think about it or no? I can live with it either way. Sometimes they say yes, sometimes they say no. Okay. But if they do say yes, I say, okay, this is how I see it happening. Okay. This is what's going to happen, I think. Okay. Do what you want.

Um, I like that. Uh-huh. Except for your last line.

Do what you want. Well, I say do whatever you want. I said, but you can do whatever you want. That's what I say.

Unless it is a matter of true safety. Yeah. Say, but, but you're such an important influencer that it's important that we complete the thoughts. Sure. Right. So do whatever you want when making a mistake is within safe territory is excellent parenting. When it is in not safe territory, it's, as your dad, my responsibility is to keep you safe. And this is not a choice you can make.

Right. If a kid has everything, money, opportunity, loving parents, why are so many still falling apart? You know what, I want to get to the part where we, where we can, where we can talk about what we actually teach the parents, right, of, uh, the kid who is suffering from substance use disorder. Maybe he's in rehab, whatever it is. At a certain point, you know, the kid's struggling, he gets the support, right, from a treatment center, detox, whatever it is, IOP, it doesn't matter. Okay. And if things, you know, if things don't change, things don't change, right? So the parents are going to have to have— they're going to have to know where their missteps led to this and how to promote success in their child's recovery. How do— let's talk about that. That's the best part.

Right. So I agree that having insight into some mistakes you've made are important. But I think having insights into how you're always part of the solution, regardless of what mistakes you've made, is even more important. So one of the things that we do want is for parents to gain insight into mistakes they may have made. And there are 2 reasons to help them with this insight. The first is so they don't repeat mistakes. But the second is for them to acknowledge that sometimes they can take shame and blame away from themselves because shame and blame can be paralyzing. Really not a great way to move forward. And I will tell you, as a doctor who works in the hospital and I take care of very, very sick kids. I make very complex medical diagnoses. But I also take care of a lot of kids who are there for behavioral reasons, whether substance use, eating disorders, or even suicide attempts. And what good parents always have in common is that they blame themselves. And while a little bit of this—

Those are the good parents.

Those are the good parents. The good parents always blame themselves. Right. And that there might be some insight to be gained, in which case I can nurture them not to repeat some of the same mistakes. But what is also likely is that there is something external that happened in their child's life or something in the world, or their child has biologic depression or anxiety, for example. In which case, taking away the shame or blame is important, and making parents understand that the past can't be redone. But what can always be done is building a better future. And that is about them being guardrails for their children.

Mm-hmm.

Right, to keep their children away from dangerous situations, while not becoming overly controlling. If you become overly controlling because your child has suffered, your child will not allow you to be in their life because it is a biologic imperative for human beings to learn to stand on their own during adolescence. And if someone prevents them from making all mistakes, they will not follow you, your guardrails.

What are parents getting wrong when they think they're protecting their child but they're actually making them weaker.

When we do for our children and they do not learn to do for themselves, they will not be able to function when they're not with us. And the line that I use more than any other is preparation is protection. When we hover, so let's look at those words that are in the popular domain. They're not true parenting styles. But whether you're talking about a snowplow parent, a helicopter parent, but basically a parent who does everything for their child, the message that you are sending is, I don't think you could do this without me.

That's right. That's exactly right.

And I used to teach nursery school. And let me tell you something. You can talk to a 3-year-old. And when you say, let me do that for you, a good, responsible 3-year-old goes, No, no, right? Because they understand that your messaging is, I don't want you to have this experience yourself. And I don't trust you could anyway. And so they reject it. And during adolescence, it's no different, right? So we don't let them put their hands on their stove. We do let them make mistakes. And we basically say, this is a lesson that you can learn with me by your side.

Are we raising kids that can tolerate pain or teaching them every uncomfortable feeling is an emergency?

So, we don't want to make broad generalities about a generation.

That's what we do here. Sorry. We let the guardrail guys rail me in, but I make those big sweeping declarations.

So, what I want is to understand that there's a wide range of young people out there. What I will say is that I worry very deeply that we have created a generation that has an increased amount of anxiety because they're supposed to feel good all the time. And we have a very narrow definition of success. And our narrow definition of success for too many parents is looking only at school, and looking only at whether their kids are happy.

What would be a better definition?

Look at the 35-year-old that you're raising. I want you to look at your child and to say, who is the 35-year-old I'm raising? And what does success look like at 35? Because happiness, for example, is entirely different. Happiness for an 8-year-old is having a cookie. For a 13-year-old, it might be having a game. For an adult, it's having good, healthy relationships with other human beings, having a sense of meaning and purpose, knowing that you matter. So, when we look at that 35-year-old, we are looking at people who are able to be collaborative, able to be creative, able to take constructive criticism. The single biggest variable in the workplace on whether or not you're going to grow is can you take it when someone gives you feedback. Do you—

Stop, stop. If you ever wanted to know when I fell in love with you, it was just then, just now. I'm not kidding.

Damn, I thought we were already in love.

No, bro, we were— I was in lust. Go on. I was infatuated. Now I love you. All right, go on.

The single most important variable is, can you take constructive feedback do you fall apart or do you grow? And think about it. If you're a boss, do you call, if someone's interviewing for your job, do you call their previous boss and go like, hey, how's she doing her SATs? Right? Was she captain of the lacrosse team? No. You say, is she a collaborator? Does she grow? Does she take feedback?

Mm-hmm.

Because in the modern era, nobody goes to work knowing everything they need to know. Either grow or you fail on the job. And we have a generation of kids who falls apart with, not a full generation, some kids who fall apart with feedback. And what that means is they're not going to be prepared to be the—

Are you kidding me? It's more than that. I'm sitting there, I ask one of my people something, right? And I'm like, Tell me about this, right? And then I said, "Well, what about what about this next thing?" And I'm I've got to ask her because she's dissembling, right? And so now I've got to know my answer. Okay, so I'm on a conference call with ten of us. Okay, and I'm not gonna I'm gonna ask as many questions as I need to. Okay, to get you in that corner until there's nowhere else to go. And you can be honest with me and have a conversation. This isn't to shame anybody. It's not to whatever, right? So I've, I'm on my 8th question and then she realizes there's nowhere to go. And I'm talking in this voice with everybody on the call on the Zoom. And do you know what she said to me when I cornered her? Stop screaming at me.

Because what was happening was not being interpreted realistically. Let's talk about what happens with people who are anxious. People who are anxious have catastrophic thinking. So, what you are doing, as sweet a guy as you are, that when you were giving feedback, it was experienced as yelling because in her head or their head, I don't know if it was a female, in their head, what was happening was they were hearing something, and then they were imagining something else. And then something else.

Yeah, I was all of a sudden their father.

So perhaps that's another issue, which is transference. We can talk about that. But for whatever reason, this person had catastrophic thinking so that their thoughts got out of of reality, and your yelling suddenly had them fired and jobless. Or if they were— you were their father, they felt rejected as a human instead of experiencing feedback. So all of this is imaginary stuff in the head, which makes us understand why cognitive behavioral therapy works, right? It's about Catching those thoughts, returning to reality, and going, actually, I'm not in danger. Actually, I'm safe, and I can live in the present, and all these thoughts in my head are not happening. What is? And then they would've looked to you and they would've gone, man, that guy's a sweetheart. I sure do appreciate his feedback. He's helping me grow right now.

Yeah. Do you know what I told her to do? I asked, I asked everybody, I said, excuse me, is there anybody please pull me up? Did I yell at this woman? No. And then I said, okay, get off the phone. Right. And I let her sit with that until she called me a couple of days later, taking responsibility. Okay. And I said, and this is my thing, back to the defensiveness, which we're talking about. Okay. If you take responsibility for your actions and you say, that was me, I screwed up. This is what I did. This is what I could have done. My bad. Won't happen again. Who can say anything to that?

Right?

Like if you say something to that, you're just a bitch, right?

What great parenting advice you just gave, right? What we want to do is create spaces for our kids where they're allowed to mess up. And we celebrate them owning responsibility. And we don't allow them to instill a voice in their head that says, if I mess up, I am destroying my parent, disappointing their parent. Don't use that word parents. Take the word disappointment out of your vocabulary.

Right.

I'm disappointing my family. I am a mess. I am not worthy. Instead, we help our kids know that every situation is reparable. There's no way they can lose us. And all we want for them is to take responsibility, grow, and do better next time.

Do you let your kids play ball in the house?

My kids are 30, but I would say yes.

You did, right?

Yeah.

When they broke shit in the house, what'd you say?

I actually never got very upset with things that were broken. I will say that I only have one small section of the living room, which is something, a glass thing I inherited from my grandmother with the crystal from her in there, and they wouldn't have played ball there. Otherwise, there was nothing to break in my house.

That's a good point. When I was a kid, it was so horrible. They, they wouldn't let me play in the house. And if I played ball in the house, because I was a wild kid and I was one of 3 boys, we broke something, there was hell to pay. So I always insisted that my children and I play ball in the house.

Yeah.

Always. And one time my son broke something and he went, I'm so sorry. And I remember what I said. It was like a spontaneous utterance. I said, dude, you haven't even started playing until you start breaking shit in the house. Let's go. Don't worry about it. Right? I mean, it's just, and then, you know, it's like you try to make it better for your kids. Right? And then I wanted to, uh, my parents would never let me eat dessert first. So I'd look at my kids. I go, you want dessert first? And they look at me like, are you insane? What's wrong with you?

You said something very early on in our conversation, which is you shared that you had your first child when they were a little bit older, when you were a little bit older. And you shared that you didn't really have the template, the modeling on how to be a dad. And what I will tell you to every parent listening out there who wonders about that. I will tell you that I help people with trauma and to recover from trauma for a living. And I will tell you that I've been doing this for 40 years, almost 40 years. And I will tell you that there are parents who were underparented or not parented in the best way, who don't necessarily know how to be there the right parent for their child. I will also tell you that there are parents who precisely because they were underparented or not parented in the right way get so many things right. So I would beg you to look at you, Richard, as an example of someone who may not have had the template you desired. And as a result, what I keep hearing from you is that You were unconditional in your presence.

You let kids make mistakes. You let them have fun. You let them make some of their own decisions, but you didn't let them put their hand on the stove. And that might be all the stuff you learned because it's all the stuff you wished.

Let me ask you a question. Did you— you've been doing this forever. You know any Parents who have lost their children in this opioid epidemic?

I do, but I know more kids whose parents were not adequately involved or separated entirely from their children who were then lost, whether it's to drugs or street violence. So yes, I have seen a profound amount of trauma in my career. Is the answer.

Is it more prevalent now? Are you seeing these kids? Are you seeing these kids passing away from that? All these other street drugs right now, more so than you have in the past.

Drugs are worse now. It's different than when we were growing up. And if you're talking about opiates in particular, you know that it's not just fentanyl. That's the stuff they're adding to the fentanyl now. So there are things that are getting worse, and there are elements of our society that we have to look at very deeply, um, that, um, where there are people who are experiencing hopelessness and they're turning to substances as a way to have those brief moments of Either escape or the belief that they're worthy of being loved. And that is why when you look at what I really do with my life, you know, I, I'm not a guy who only believes in daffodils, positivity, and prevention. I'm a guy who has earned very deeply an understanding of what trauma does to kids. And what family separation does to kids.

How do you talk to your kid? What would you tell parents right now listening to this on how to talk to their teenage child or preteen child? I'm sorry, teenage child, you're screwed, you're too late. You're between 6 and 10, is when you should really get started at 6 years old, really, and start planting those seeds. But how would you tell a— the parents to start speaking to their kids knowing that the most unnatural thing in the world, okay, is to bury your child?

What I would do is set the stage to know how much they are loved, number one, how worthy they are, number two, of a good life, number three, how they can talk to you about absolutely anything, and that if they are exposed to scary things in the world, you want to know about it because you will always be there for them. And one of those scary things in the world is drugs. The next thing that I would do is instill within them a wide repertoire of positive coping strategies, right? Because life will be hard. Life will not be easy. And when life gets hard, what defines mental health is not that we experience happiness, not that we go into denial, but that we have a wide repertoire of positive coping strategies to turn to. And I would begin teaching that at 3. And before I go on—

That's beautiful.

I have to disagree with you on a critical point.

Do it.

All right.

Do it. You're not my ChatGPT. You don't have to agree with everything I say.

So when you said, let's talk to the 6 to 10-year-olds, I agree. And if you said to me, let's start when they're 3 years old, teaching them about emotional expression, how to escape hard and uncomfortable feelings in healthy ways, starting at 2 or 3, I agree in every way. But when you say to me, That with their teenagers and it's too late. I know you don't believe that. No, no, no.

As a general rule though, doctor, hold on. As a general rule, if you, if you, if you start talking to your kids about drugs when they're teenagers, you're an absentee landlord. That's why I'm the blame the parent guy. Okay.

I'm going to agree with you that you should start early, but as a person who works primarily with teenagers and who understands brain development of adolescents, And who understands how many parents believe that they no longer have power over adolescents. I need to definitively state, as one of, not to be a jerk, the country's experts on communicating with adolescents.

That's right.

Never too late to enter your child's life. Should you have gone earlier? I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm a child development expert. I'm a pediatrician. Begin as early as you can. Never be afraid. Just change the language. But also never believe it's too late.

We're saying the same thing. What I'm really saying is, if you haven't had the conversation before, you are screwed. And the reason you're screwed is because it's not going to land. You haven't, you haven't watered the lawn, man. You haven't taken care, you haven't planted the seeds. All the way. I mean, I'm doing this all the way. So when I, so when I'm talking to my 16-year-old daughter, okay, she, we have the relationship. She knows the context of everything we're talking about. Of course, we don't throw anybody away. You got a 15-year-old kid, you got 15 years in them. You know what I mean? Right. But it's too, but it, but, but you gotta have that, that you gotta be more proactive.

So if you and I were having a conversation and everyone listening to us, and I have a feeling it's more than 10 people listening to us, and if all of them were listening to us when their kids were 2, I'd be in 100% agreement with you. But with full knowledge that there are people listening to us whose kids are 15, 16, 17, 18, 25, and I don't want them to walk away believing That them entering their child's life—

You're exactly right. I stand corrected. Thank you for pulling me up. You are 1,000% correct.

I love you, man.

Why?

Because you're transparent, you're honest, and, and you're, um, you're flexible, which is exactly the way humans should be with each other. So I love that.

If you can't make a repair or you can't be self-reflective, Then, you know, it's, these are not the kind of people I want to know. And it's certainly not the kind of person I want to be. You know, you keep talking about happiness and I love that. You can't always be happy. I get that. Okay. But let's draw the distinction for the viewers between happiness and being able to, uh, experience a joy of living.

Hmm.

Right? 2 totally different things, right?

Yeah. So, I think to actually experience joy or flow, to thrive, you have to have a range of emotions, including understanding that sometimes you're not happy, right? I'm not anti-happy. Let's be clear. If I had pixie dust and I could just sprinkle it all over the world, we would be happy.

And then you'd be living in Puerto Rico. Go on.

I have no idea what that meant, but—

It's okay. It's a Puerto Rico thing. Go on.

Yeah. But the point is that we don't live in that world. We live in a world of tremendous uncertainty and where things are changing. And we are also human beings and human beings hurt each other sometimes. And we have things like death. There are things that you're supposed to react to that you're not supposed to react to with happiness. But when you know how hard life can be, you also learn how to draw joy in every moment you can. And I think that is more powerful to have the range of emotions than to feel like some Instagram commercial. They are supposed to look one way and be happy all the time. It's just not true. We're supposed to have a wide range of responses and a wide range of healthy coping strategies when life is not good.

What did you leave unsaid? What do you want to leave people with? Anything? Because again, I'm not the best at this.

Parents matter. Love matters. And what you want to be is the kind of parent who your child will always come to. And if you'd give me permission, I'd like to talk for a couple minutes about what that kind of parent looks like.

Do it.

Number 1, you are receptive and you are a sounding board. You are someone who is committed to guiding, not controlling. Number one. Number 2, your children know that you have bandwidth. It is a mythology that children don't care what their parents think. Children worry incessantly about their parents' wellbeing. And when you know that you are a source of potential pain for your parent, you are not going to go to them if they don't have bandwidth. So, that is where self-care comes in. But you have to be truly transparent about your self-care. You have to be able to say, Sally, you can come to me for anything. Of course, I'm upset, but I always have room for you. And, or if Sally comes to you, you go, Sally, hold out. I'm going for a run. Gotta get my head together. Gotta call my aunt. Gotta go pray. Whatever it is, I will make bandwidth for you. And let me give you a final, most important thing that I think is super important in the day and age we're living in. And since you have a podcast, which is so popular to so many people, but they're also hearing other podcasts in an America that is increasingly divided, your child will not come to you if they view you as judgmental.

And you can be sweet as pie to them. But if every time you disagree with someone, you call them the enemy. If every time you don't like what a neighbor does, you condemn them. Your child is paying attention starting when they're 2 years old. And they know that you are a human who judges. And if you are a human who judges, I worry. that they won't come to you when they need you the most. I'm not saying you don't have values. I want you to have values. I want you to have very clear rules beyond which your kid cannot stray. But I want them to know that no matter what, your love is unconditional. You have 2 different roles in the universe, right? I'm an American Academy of Pediatric book author. I can't speak in hyperbolic terms. I have to always speak in accurate terms. And what I really, really enjoyed with you, and I'd love to give you this incredible compliment, is you have the energy of a podcaster, but I needed you to come back a couple times knowing that there are parents who are hearing you, and you didn't make a joke of it.

You really self-corrected and were reflective and just Respect. Respect.

Do you know why?

Why?

Because I've given back 10,000 people back to their families. And the only people I talk to are the parents.

Yeah.

I will not talk to the sick person anymore. I'm 59 years old.

Yeah.

That ship has sailed. I've got 250 lovers that can handle that. Okay. But I spent my time talking to fathers and mothers.

Yeah.

And it's the only reason I came back to work, man.

Yeah.

Okay. I sold this last business for just a— I didn't have to work. Right. But it's like, I'm a father.

Yeah.

And as a father, you know, that's everything. The kids are everything.

Yeah.

Kids are everything. Well, that's why I'm so hard on the parents. Because it's like, hey, man, they didn't ask to be here. They're not an accessory. Okay, don't be an absentee landlord. Get your shit together. This is the only thing in the world that's important. Right. And that's truthfully, when we have clients that are adult men and very established, successful guys, that's the message.

Yeah. I emphatically agree with you on the importance of parenting. You and I are emphatically on the same page. And it would be an honor to me if you ever wanted to continue you know, do another podcast, I would be thrilled. Because we do—

Talking about it would be over in 15 minutes. We're gonna throw the ball around.

Say what? Oh, right. But the point being that I agree with you and spend my entire life thinking about behavior change and how to bring people on. And it is a gentler message. We have different roles in the universe. I'm a pediatrician, right? You're an influencer. And I—

Stop saying that. I am not an influencer.

But you are. Like, I know that you've run an organization. I know you've saved lives. I know you're a clinician. I'm not blind to any of that. But right now, the amount of influence you have in the world, is so much more than me, right? Your job is to stimulate thought. And my job is once your thought is stimulated to empower you to be effective, which you do too. But it's going to mean that the two of us are going to always dance. We're going to always dance.

That's how the sausage gets made. So I love it. All right. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Listen, man.

Yeah. Great, great conversation. Great.

We do a love call at Carrera. So thank you for coming on today. It was a pleasure. Where can people reach you, Doctor?

I am the Center for Parent and Teen Communication. parentandteen.com has an enormous amount of free resources that people can use to learn how to effectively communicate with their children. I also write a lot of books for the American Academy of Pediatrics. on how to build resilience in children and teens, how to communicate with your teen. My latest one is Lighthouse Parenting. So I try to put a lot of information out there so that parents can feel powerful.

There it is.

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