Transcript of #663 - Porn Recovery Coach Steven Wolt New

Mehr Feuer, mehr Intrigen.

Die Drachen kehren zurück.

Die absolute Macht ist dir zum Greifen nah. Dein Reich wird unbezwingbar sein, Rhaenyra.

Stream die neue Staffel House of the Dragon ab 22.

Juni mit WOW. Freu dich außerdem auf Staffel 1 und 2 der Erfolgsserie und weitere Highlights.

Es wird keinen Zweifel geben, wen die Götter zum Herrschen auserwählt haben. Drachen heiß zum besten Preis. Jetzt ab 2,98 € im Monat. Hier auf WOW TV, streaming war noch nie so wow.

Today's guest is a certified coach and a founder of Valor Recovery. It's a recovery program that focuses on porn addiction, pornography addiction, intimacy disorders, commitment disorders, a whole gamut of stuff in there. There's a lot of things when it comes to emotional connection. He and I have known each other for years. He's a dear friend of mine. He's been a mentor, he's been a guide, and at times he's been a hero. I'll say that. This episode isn't really for children. If you have children, maybe in the back seat or something, you know, it might— I mean, it might— it's not graphic, but it's just, I don't know, just, you know, I hope this episode reaches who it reaches. I would like to say that. I had a great chat today with my guest and friend, Mr. Steve. Steve.

Wolt.

Thank you, bro. Thanks for coming.

I love you. Yeah, I love you too, bro. Been a long time I've known you.

I know, it has been a long time, man. Um, for some of you guys who don't know, today's, uh, guest is my friend Steve, uh, Wolt. Who started a program called Valor Recovery. And it's a recovery program for men who have suffered with pornography addiction. Is that pretty much a safe way to say it, Steve?

That's a good way to say it.

Okay, cool. And thank you so much, dude. I love the work that you do. Thank you for like, you've been a guiding light in my life and just a partner in crime and in positive crime. And yeah, I just wanna like, we met in recovery rooms, right?

Yeah.

A long time ago.

Yeah, we met above the bank over there. We're going to Recovery Rooms in the Palisades.

Yeah.

I didn't suffer from porn addiction, but I did, I have dealt with that, like parts of that. And I have like, you know, had like intimacy disorder, like commitment issues, that sort of thing, you know, which those meetings cover all of that. Your recovery started with drugs and alcohols?

It did. I mean, I was one of those kind of, men that kind of struggled with a lot of stuff. But, you know, as you look back, I definitely think pornography was the culprit.

Really?

Yeah, I do. You know, I think pornography was this kind of gateway drug that led me to a lot of dark places.

Hmm. Yeah, I'd love to hear your experience, strength, and hope today. Just take us kind of on your, uh, your journey. This is what people do in meetings a lot. They'll share their experience, strength, and hope. Um, and your journey with intimacy, sex addiction, pornography addiction, et cetera. Is that okay?

Yeah, it's great. And so I think it started for me in the late '90s. I was living in New York City, working in financial services. From all outward appearances, doing great in life. I remember moving kind of my first nice apartment and 32nd floor of a building. I'd worked so hard for this, right? My goodness.

A walk-up? No.

No, it wasn't a walk-up. 32 floors is a long way to walk.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. But what I do remember within a few weeks is getting the internet in my apartment for the first time. Pretty cool, right? People could do research. They could do a lot of things with the internet. Like, not this guy. I mean, I mean, I use the internet for porn. And so really, for the first time in my life, I had like unlimited access to pornography. And I'll tell you what, when I watched porn, it lit me up like a Christmas tree. When I watched porn, that fog of depression that kind of hovered over me much of my life lifted.

Really?

Yeah, 100%.

I can kind of relate a little bit to what you're talking about. Like, there's something else with it that feels very addictive.

You know, there's a euphoria to it.

That's what I'm saying.

I mean, it works just like— worked just like a drug for me. Right? That anxiety I felt, that kind of loneliness that was so profound vanished when I watched porn.

Oh yeah.

So, you know, I watched porn to really numb difficult emotions. And it worked. It worked really, really well.

And were you using it like, I mean, were you just kind of like using it once a day or was like, I mean, was there an actual like heavy use of it or it was just like this outlet that you knew that was there?

You know, it started off as an outlet, but then things started to change. You know, this is long before we had cell phones that had pornography. So this was on a laptop in my home. And what I noticed was this progression. I started watching porn for longer lengths of time with more frequency. I kind of needed porn. You know, there were nights I'd be watching porn throughout most of the evening.

What?

800. I'd go for hours.

Wow.

And, you know, I'd wake up or like come to in the morning, like disgusted with myself.

Oh, yeah.

Disgusted. I'm never doing this again. I would actually, multiple times, I would get the laptop and I would throw it down the garbage chute on the 32nd floor in absolute disgust. But, you know, a few days later, I'd be back in the computer store telling this poor guy that I have a growing business and we need more technology.

Little thing I know, I just throw my computer away because I couldn't stop watching porn on it. Because like, dude, too bad they don't have an Olympic event for guys who are sick of watching porn on their laptops. You— that would be so much further than discus, I think, you know. But dude, that's crazy. Imagine like some guy is just like some little R2-D2 human in there is like, what, another one?

Another one. Steve's got a very successful business. He's hiring.

He needs a lot.

He needs computers.

Oh dude, that's so crazy, dude. I do remember like when I was a kid— is it okay if I interject? Yeah, please. Yeah. And just to share, man, like, I remember like when I was a kid, they had one, some fella had pornos at his house. He had magazines. And we'd had, somebody had like chiseled some tits into the wood, into a tree near our home and stuff like that. And we had that when I was young and people would show up to that like it was some like kind of like a, you know, some mahogany chest Mecca or something. You know, people would make the pilgrimage to see that in the woods.

That's hot.

Yeah, yeah, it's hot. But at one point I had a buddy and his dad had some porno magazines. And dude, I remember once I'd seen those, I would bike across town on the weekends to go to their home. And I would kind of loiter around the house until there was an opportunity to go see 'em. And one weekend I even broke into their, like broke into a window. I didn't break the glass. That's crazy. But I did—

That would've been too much.

Yeah.

You would've crossed the line.

Yeah.

But I snuck in to, and I didn't realize it at the time. It was just like, I didn't even realize that I was doing it. But when I later looked back at it, it was like, oh, it just like, there was something, there was a comforting thing or there was like this addiction that started. Anyway, go on, man. So you had taken these computers in.

Yeah. And you know, it was just a sign that, I was really struggling with this. I couldn't stop. And, you know, there was such a progression to this, you know, even like taking more risk on where I'd watch porn. I'd watch it in the office on my work computer, which is kind of insane when you think about it.

Yeah.

And, you know, I start watching different types of porn, you know, categories I didn't even know existed, right? You go down the left-hand side of that porn, category after category after category. And for me, I started gravitating towards fetish porn and then eventually porn outside of my sexual orientation. And I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know why this was so intoxicating and why I couldn't stop.

Mm-hmm.

And the problem was, nothing wrong with that type of porn, but for me, it brought up so much shame, and that shame was so debilitating in my life. And so it was really a painful experience. This was a long time ago, so there wasn't information around that. There wasn't a place to go and talk about this stuff. So I just had this kind of really horrible feeling. I was engaging in a behavior that didn't feel like it was in alignment with my values, and I was suffering.

Man, I'm sorry to hear that, man. I know that we've talked about this kind of a lot, and I've heard you share before, but anytime somebody says that they feel a lot of shame, It just really resonates with me, man. You know, I've felt a lot of that in my life is just shame for different things, you know? It's so powerful.

And you can't stop.

And you said this sounds like a long time ago, man. I've had friends that I've talked to this week that it's the same story. Yeah, man, I can relate to like looking at pornography and just the shame, the horror you feel after, but then you still need something that, but then like it kind of wears off or you get out of that shame and then you're again are looking for something that'll kind of give you a feeling, something. Makes me feel good about myself, or I'm not having, I'm not dating well, or I'm afraid of women, anything, whatever's going on. And then you find yourself back there.

Well, you know, it's interesting, like the ease and accessibility of porn today anyway, make it so easy to regulate your emotions with it, right? You just think about how you're able to really avoid discomfort.

Like, what do you mean exactly?

Like avoid it? Avoid it, because here's the deal, right? If you're feeling anxious, you watch porn, you feel temporarily calm, right? You're feeling bored, you watch porn, you feel some stimulation. You're feeling lonely, you watch porn, you feel artificial connection. So porn for me can actually affect and change my mood. So why is that a bad thing, right? And so, 'cause porn can work in the short term.

It can.

But what happens, especially for me, is I weaken my ability to regulate my own emotions. So stopping watching porn wasn't just stopping a bad habit. I had to learn how to regulate my own emotions. I had to learn to deal with triggers and urges. And so there was this kind of incredible process that kind of weaning myself off porn was just not easy.

Thanks for sharing, man. Yeah, let's go back into your journey a little bit if we can.

Yeah, and so we're in this place right now where I'm, using porn to deal with the pain of being Steve.

You were in this place.

Yeah. And at that time, I was in a relationship as well. Great girl. And throughout that relationship, the more porn that I consumed, things started to change. Sex wasn't about connection, making love. It was about intercourse over time. It was about replicating what I'd seen in the movies. You know, I often like to say pornography abuse literally burns off the nerve endings of sensuality in relationships. Less kissing, touching, holding, caressing. And that certainly was the case for me. And, you know, over time in that relationship, you know, I experienced a lot of sexual dysfunction. I had difficulty getting and maintaining an erection during sex.

Yeah, yeah.

Over time, I actually didn't even want to have sex with her. I've been so desensitized to sex with all the porn I was watching and masturbation I was engaging in. And towards the very end, I couldn't orgasm unless I was thinking about a porn scene I had seen earlier that day.

Wow.

So pornography robbed me of my manhood. And, you know, that poor girl, I mean, talk about affecting her self-esteem and self-worth. Like, what's wrong with me? Why doesn't he desire me anymore? Am I not attractive anymore? And I had no ability to talk about this at this time. I had so much shame over— I had this incredible double life. So, you know, porn helped to destroy that relationship. And so— and I'm not talking about the guy who's casually consuming porn. I was abusing pornography and, you know—

Relying on it.

Yeah, yeah. It was, it was just, uh, um, what you notice is that men who abuse pornography, it comes with some consequences. And for me, pornography was this gateway drug, right? All those lines in the sand I had of behaviors that I would never cross over and engage in all got washed away.

Really?

Yeah. Pornography was a gateway drug that led to strip clubs, erotic massages, escorts, really dark, dark places. It was so painful. You know, there came a point in time in my life where I couldn't even make eye contact with the man in the mirror.

Really?

'Cause I knew the truth. When I think about this journey, I mean, porn was like the culprit. So it just didn't work for me.

Did it get to a point where it didn't work and then you kind of evolved onto other stuff? Or how did like—

You know, in 2008, my life just kind of blew up. I collapsed emotionally, spiritually, professionally. Everything kind of came to a head, and I absolutely blew up my life, unfortunately. And— but that was the time I also had the courage to kind of ask for and get help. And not an easy thing to do, to kind of talk about these issues, get help for these issues. And— — it was hard coming out of the gates to get better from this stuff.

Yeah. How'd you know? Was there a breaking point, if it's okay to ask you?

Yeah, please. I mean—

Thank you, bro, for just being so open and transparent about some of this, man. I think I was scared about even talking about this, not because I'm scared of— I don't know. I don't know why I was. I don't know. I know you're such a— this is your world. You care so much about helping people with this situation, man. So I don't know why I was. Did there come a point for you where it was just like, this is it?

I think I knew I had to get help. I knew I was in a lot of trouble. I was getting the best help that was available, and I was still struggling. And not because I had a desire to get better. The one thing I did really, really well is I didn't give up. I kept coming back. The one thing I really did well was I had so many good people in my life that saw something in me I couldn't see in myself.

Mm.

They refused to give up on me. I had incredible family, my mom, my brothers, my sister, who loved me unconditionally and were like a pillar of strength. When I was so weak. So I was so lucky to have such good people in my life. And I had to fight for my recovery. Wasn't easy. It was not easy. I had to fight and fight and fight. But I'll tell you what, I never gave up. And I live a pretty incredible life today.

Yeah.

You know, I'm married to a woman I absolutely adore, my wife, Jennifer. Best thing that's ever happened to me. She's an incredible, incredible human being.

Amen.

And has made me such a healthier, better man. I am so blessed for her. And we had our son Theo almost a year ago. We started a family and all byproducts of recovery. And so I'm a huge believer in the power of recovery, the benefits of men getting into recovery, especially as it relates to sexual compulsivity and porn abuse. You know, when you think about my recovery journey, right, I think about it kind of in 3 stages: healthy intimacy, healthy sexuality, and healthy masculinity. Healthy intimacy. First person I had to have an intimate relationship with is myself. I had to get more comfortable with Steve. I had to stop running and numbing. I had to learn to sit with discomfort. I had to learn to really identify the root causes that were driving these compulsions because porn was not my problem. Steve was my problem. Wow.

Yeah, man. Getting to know yourself. Did you feel like yourself was like your, like, self was like hidden kind of, or that yourself had never developed? Does that make any sense?

Yeah, I think probably both. All I know is I was so uncomfortable in my own skin. I suffered with anxiety. I suffered with depression. I didn't feel good about myself as a man. I had such trouble being in relationships, experiencing love, and I was so disconnected not only from myself but from others. And it kind of made sense why I abused pornography. I was just really unhappy.

Yeah.

You know, and that's, you know, the thing that I've learned over the years is that recovery is not about stopping a behavior. Recovery is about building a life you don't need to escape from. Hmm.

Were you able to notice some of the things that you felt like you were escaping from that you felt like were kind of sending you in that direction?

Yeah. Right. And I was kind of emotionally unstable. Right. And so part of recovery is being able to regulate your own emotions. Right. Part of people think that, like, recovery looks like this. It doesn't. It looks like a chart of the Dow Jones.

Yeah.

Right. And so what I end up doing in recovery is just kind of softening the peaks and valleys so that I could exist in life. And, you know, not have to numb the pain of the way I was living my life. And so, you know, part of that involved being able to have a relationship with my sexuality that's beautiful and empowering and made me feel good about myself as a man. That's so missed in recovery circles. Everything is about abstinence. And I get that there's value in abstinence, but if you truly want to transcend this compulsion, you have to build the life that's more enjoyable, more purposeful than the life you were living. Right. Or else you're gonna be vulnerable to returning to it. So part of that means like, dude, Steve, you've got to learn how to be in a relationship. You gotta learn how to experience the joys of your sexuality. You have to learn how to experience meaningful connection in order to truly transcend this compulsion.

Yeah, I mean, it's so funny you're saying this 'cause I was thinking the other day, it's like, it's one thing to kind of like refrain from things, right? Like I'm refraining from drugs and alcohol and I'm, you know, like I'm refraining from things that I'm addicted to to, but it's another thing like, but if you don't have a life outside of that, then you're just sitting there playing defense all the time.

That's correct.

I was just thinking about that the other day. Somebody's like, what do you like to do? And I'm like, you know, well, my hobbies became my jobs. And I'm like, yeah, I gotta find some things to fall in love with.

Yeah.

I gotta find like, and there's so many things.

How about a great woman?

Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's—

That would be awesome.

I would, hey, just saying, I'm down. But yeah, I see exactly what you're saying.

Like I live a life today where I don't, I don't need pornography. I don't need alcohol. I don't need drugs. You know, this is like a journey around really healthy masculinity. You know, for so much of my life, my behaviors were not in alignment with my values.

Yeah.

And I suffered, right? I needed porn to deal with the way I was living my life. So when I started to live my life in alignment with like honor, integrity, love, service, kindness. I felt good about myself as a man. Like I didn't need to numb the pain of Steve.

Yeah.

I could look in the mirror and be like, that's a good guy. Most days.

Yeah.

That's good stuff.

Yeah.

So that's often what's missed in recovery. This is not just about abstinence. It's about becoming emotionally regulated, kind of socially connected. Living with honesty and integrity so that you don't need some maladaptive coping mechanism to deal with life.

Amen. Yeah, man, I think this has been like, I mean, I have so many friends that talk about this a lot and even women. I was talking to this girl the other day and I said, you know, I have a guy coming in who started a recovery center for a porn addiction. And she's like, oh, you know, I struggle with that. And I was like, I was like, "What?" It shocked me.

Yeah.

I had never heard a woman just say that to my face and casually.

Yeah.

You know? Why do so many men struggle with this?

So here's the truth that no one tells anybody. This is really, really difficult to overcome. It's almost comical. You go online and you see these ads, "We'll fix your porn problem in 14 days." No, you won't. Not happening. Sorry. And there are a bunch of reasons why this is so hard. The ease and accessibility of this make this like a phenomenon we've never seen before. And it's not just porn, it's sexualized social media. And so I'm in long-term recovery from cocaine addiction. And could you imagine in early recovery having to walk around all day long with a pocket full of cocaine? No. And not do it when you have some uncomfortable feeling come up?

Pshew.

What do you think it's like for these guys that have their drug of choice in their hand on their phone?

Yeah.

So the instant access makes this challenging. So that's one thing, but there's a lot more going on. And so when you think— this is the way I think about it, right? And so I think that pornography kind of hijacks the brain's reward system and so dysregulates your nervous system. Porn becomes this learned shortcut to avoid discomfort. So when you stop watching porn, you're not just stopping a bad habit, you are literally kind of throwing away your primary regulation tool.

Mm-hmm.

And when you stop watching porn, I don't know if you can relate to this, I certainly can, your nervous system can go haywire, right? You can feel irritable, you could feel anxious, flat mood, low energy, and cravings. And these cravings can feel primal. They're literally a function of multiple systems in your brain and body, like screaming out all at once that something's missing for your survival.

Wow.

That's why guys return to the behavior or quote unquote relapse. This is not about willpower. This is not about moral failure. This is biology and neuroscience. Your brain has been conditioned with all the porn that you've watched and your nervous system has yet to find another way to regulate itself. So recovery is not just about stopping a behavior. It's retraining your nervous system. It's learning how to deal with urges and cravings so they weaken over time. Second challenge is that— you've heard it in my story, right? Men use porn as a way to numb, avoid, or suppress emotional pain, anger, pressure, anxiety, depression. Mm-hmm. Trauma that none of us want to feel. And so when you stop watching porn, these feelings come back with a vengeance. So unless you begin to identify and heal those root causes, you are going to routinely return to the one thing you know provides you temporary relief, and that's porn.

In the past, you know, I, I've been hesitant to invest, to put my money somewhere. I'm that guy, I make my money, I keep my money, I like to keep it locked in, you know? And sometimes I was just too busy to learn about how investing even worked. The strategy of it, the long-term idea of it. You know, I was too busy focusing on just where I was at the moment. That's how it happens with a lot of us. Acorns. That's what I'm here to tell you about. Acorns is the financial wellness app that cares about where your money is going tomorrow.

Tomorrow.

Acorns is a smart way to give your money a chance to grow. It's easy. You can sign up in minutes and start automatically investing your spare money, even if all you've got is spare change. Sign up now and join the over 14 million all-time customers who have already saved and invested over $27 billion with Acorns. Plus, Acorns will boost your new account with a $20 bonus investment. Okay. Offer available at acorns.com/theo. That's a-c-o-r-n-s dot com slash T-H-E-O to get your $20 bonus investment today. Terms and conditions apply. See acorns.com/terms for details. Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Tier 2 compensation provided. Potential subject to various factors such as customers, accounts, age, and investment settings. Does not include Acorns fees. Results do not predict or represent the performance of any Acorns portfolio. Investment results will vary. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC, an SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com. This show is sponsored by Liquid IV. It's summer, baby. It's warmed up. You can feel it's warm. It's not even a joke. The other day I was just standing in the driveway and just thinking, God, who cut the heat on?

Cut it off. I was texting my neighbors, is y'all's heat on? Just overwhelmed. It's hot. When you're on the go, staying hydrated is is the key to enjoying all that extra sunshine. And Liquid IV is clinically demonstrated to hydrate faster than water alone. I bring Liquid IV with me when I'm on the go. I bring it. After a show, I get me a little packet of one of 'em. That Liquid IV packet, I pour it and I shake it. I like the sugar-free flavors. That's what I like. I think peach and— peach and strawberry and watermelon. Just one stick and 16 ounces of water hydrates faster than water alone. Powered by LIV Hydroscience, an optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins, and clinically tested nutrients to turn ordinary water into extraordinary hydration. Stay hydrated while you're on the go this summer with Liquid IV. Tear poor, live more. Go to liquidiv.com and get 20% off your first purchase with code Theo at checkout. That's 20% off your first purchase. With code Theo at liquidiv.com. But some men, it just shows up everywhere that you kind of get addicted to it like that. It's like a guy may not have a lot of problem, a guy may be healthy, but, uh, he accidentally picks up some cocaine off the street and now he's using it, right?

As opposed to a guy who like is hurting and goes to look for cocaine or porn. You know, I'm just, I'm using cocaine as, I don't know why I use that, but like You know, there's some guys who accidentally, it just shows up on their phone, maybe it's a popup or whatever, or they just are, they have some sexual energy and they take it there. And they're not really, maybe they're healthy when they get there. And then there's guys who are unhealthy that go there for a fix, it feels like. So it feels like there's kind of two different versions.

100%, 100%. There's casual porn use.

Okay, so not everybody is—

Not at all.

Like is trying to, has all these things that they need to repair.

That's correct.

Okay, got it.

There are guys out there that are continue to get engaged the behavior despite consequences. And right, and so I think these statistics say 10 to 15% of men have an addiction or severe unhealthy relationship with pornography. So I'm talking about that category of men.

Yeah, because for me, I never had like the addiction to pornography. Like I had the use of it.

Give it time. Give it time. Don't sell yourself short.

Please, no. But I definitely had where it was a way instead of having to connect with a woman, I would, this is an easier way. And that became like just an easier, safer way. I didn't have an, so I guess there isn't an addictive element there, but I didn't have like the daily, like, you know, like that draw to it. I had more like intimacy issues with talking with women and stuff like that. And then I would just end up doing masturbation And a lot of times not even to pornography, but then once porn became more prevalent and stuff like that, it was easier.

Well, I think you highlighted a really good point. There's another component to this porn abuse, porn addiction, sexual compulsivity, whatever label you're throwing at it, is often referred to as an intimacy disorder. Meaning for many men, this is about more than just a sexual behavior. This is about a pattern of avoiding emotional connection.—

you just highlighted it. That was my thing.

That's right.

Emotional connection was tough for me. I didn't have any experience of it. And so when I finally got into like, like dating or like where you're having attraction with girls and they're having attraction for you and women, it was a lot. It was like, it was scary, I guess, or it was alarming. It was a lot of things. And I didn't have like a safe outlet to talk about it.. And I didn't have any groundwork of like healthy connection at all. So that, uh, so I think it, yeah, that just made it like kind of tough. And then to avoid it, I would be like, okay, well I have these sexual feelings, I'll just go and, uh, use jerking off or whatever, something like that. As opposed to, uh, trying to figure out how to work them out. Cuz working them out in real time when you're a kid, like when you're young, you know, when you're at adolescent or whatever, it's kind of scary, you know? It's like a lot of that's scary, you know?

Yeah, where do you go to talk about this stuff?

Right, and your peers, like, some of them are kind of helpful, but some of them are also like, like, other kids can be assholes about this stuff. So, um, anyway, I'm trying to remember some of it. I can't, I can't remember exactly some of the ways, but yeah, instead of like engaging, sometimes I'll be like, oh, I'm too nervous to even talk to that girl, I'll just masturbate later on or something.

You know, it's interesting.

Does that make sense? It makes perfect sense.

I mean, Sorry. Men begin to prefer the safety of porn versus the unpredictability of relationships and real people.

Yeah.

So once again, recovery is not just about stopping a behavior. Recovery is learning how to relate, engage, and connect with others. Recovery is about learning how to experience real intimacy, which, sorry, has to include some vulnerability and taking some emotional risk. Recovery is about learning to experience the joys of connection and love, right? Because if you're not on that path, it's hard not to be in pain and suffering.

Mm-hmm.

And so it's so important in recovery. So when you think about why this is so hard, right? You just talked about it, right? If you don't understand the neuroscience and the nervous system regulation, guys just stay in this hamster wheel loop. If you don't identify some of the root causes that are driving this compulsion, you're vulnerable to returning to it. And if you don't do a deeper dive around intimacy and what's blocking you from connection, you stay in pain and lonely. So kind of all 3 of these need to be addressed in order for lasting recovery to occur.

Yeah.

But it's more than that. And I'll tell you a few other thoughts I have on why this is so hard. Early recovery can be very painful.

Mm.

And so when you so overstimulate your brain from pornography and from sexualized social media, when you stop engaging those behaviors, your mood can be flat. You can have low energy and you can have intolerable boredom.

Huh.

And people think that boredom is the enemy. It's not. It's actually your body recalibrating. Everything you want in life is on the other side of you learning how to tolerate boredom. But for so many men, they quit too early because they can't sit with this discomfort. The other challenge we see constantly is that so many guys quit before the miracle happens.

Yeah.

I mean, I struggled for many years before I was able to make real progress in my recovery. You know, Oftentimes in recovery circles, we measure sobriety success by continuous days of sobriety. 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, 6 months, a year. All good stuff.

Right.

All good stuff.

Right.

However, however, that cannot be the sole measurement of progress. Because for many guys, myself included, they're not gonna get it right away. Right? It's going to be a journey. And if you keep kind of having a relapse and you go down this massive shame spiral that you are failing, that you're a failure, you give up. So recovery is about becoming emotionally regulated, socially connected, learning to live with honor and integrity so that you don't need porn anymore. That can take time. Recovery is about building a life you don't need to escape from. That can take time. And so for many guys, especially single guys, right, where there's not external leverage or consequences on you, right? A married guy, he's really in trouble, his relationship, he's got to get sober or the marriage is at risk.

Right.

That's one dynamic. But now you got a single guy right now. What is the motivation for him right now to continue on this work? You got to keep that person inspired and motivated to continue to do the work. And guess what? If the best that you can do is watch 80 to 90% less porn in any given month, great job.

Right.

Great job. As long as that is in conjunction with you developing new habits to take better care of yourself physically, spiritually, and emotionally.

Amen.

Right? Recovery is a— the ability to sustain abstinence will be a byproduct of you taking better care of yourself physically, emotionally, and spiritually.

Absolutely. Yeah. It's a three-sided deal.

100%. So guys quit too early. Like, where you going? We just got started. And so why not also measure consistency of going to the gym, consistency of making social plans, consistency of learning a new hobby.

Keeping your word, dude. Taking care of yourself.

Measure that stuff in addition to your sober day count.

Yeah. There's a lot of other factors that start to gauge, like, that you can use to self-gauge as well, and that are super important. But also a lot of those factors are things that It's also just like, you know, it's getting up, it's getting up, being active. I wanna take care of myself physically. You know, I wanna meditate. I wanna have a relationship with a higher power. I want to like nurture this gift, this thing that I am.

Mm-hmm.

Right? And there's this other, it's such a Pandora's box, porn is, because it's like, Here's this thing and it's just, it's tricked, it's tricked. It's like a, it's just a finely calculated molecule of the devil really.

Mm-hmm.

You know? And it's, and so when sometimes people are like, man, we're not at war, there's not a lot going on, but we're sitting here losing a battle a lot of times. So I do think there is this inspirational element sometimes, where I'll feel like I can, like if I want a war, there's one every single day for me against the dark arts, against the things that want to drag me down, against the things that are literally finessed to take away the essence of me.

Mm-hmm.

Right? The essence of me, man. And so it's like, —there's a battle right now, I think, for a lot of that. And a lot of us don't realize, um, well, and, and we can get kind of like, uh, lullabied into the comfort of it. You don't think it's a big deal. You're looking at it once or twice, right? But then you, you like—I would notice for myself, if I was doing jerking off or whatever, something like that, the next day I'd feel a little bit kind of bad about myself, or I'd be shorter with people. Um, if I looked at pornography, it made me look at, uh, like, uh, dates and stuff. It just made me, like, it carried— I had a little bit of shame inside of me. You don't even realize it. Sometimes it's like you don't think it's on the forefront of you or that it's, it's affecting like the look in your eyes or anything, but there's a little bit of that in there, you know. It kind of like colors your coffee a little bit. It's like, um, but it's not the best color, you know. Does any of this stuff make sense that I'm saying?

You, you, you—

So I'm kind of rambling.

No, no, no, there's— I want to—

I want to— It's hard to explain.

Yeah, you did a good job with it. A few things that come to mind. Number one, you talk about the rig system. And so I read this, I shared this with you on the phone a few weeks ago. I read this stat that said that the dopamine spike is from the anticipation of watching the next video and not the video you're actually watching.

Wow.

So the addiction is to the scroll. And like dopamine, this is, I might butcher this, but I think that's what it said. Dopamine is not the pleasure chemical. It's the motivation chemical. It's the chemical of pursuit. What's next? So social media is rigged this way. Pornography is rigged this way. You know, back in the day, you know, getting access to porn was going to some creepy video store.

Yeah.

Going behind a curtain that said "adult only" or beads, those beads that would hang. You obviously know. And all of a sudden to get this VHS in a brown paper bag. Put it underneath your arm, and do the walk of shame home.

Yeah.

Right? But you'd go watch that VHS, you know, for 15 minutes, do whatever, and go about your day. That's not what modern-day porn abuse looks like. It's infinite novelty, where you're constantly scrolling for sexual imagery, hours at a time. This is a whole new beast.

Yeah, it says it right here. Industry analytics and search engine studies estimate that pornographic content accounts for roughly 20% of all internet searches on mobile devices. That's astronomical. This is notably higher than desktop search rates, which generally clock in around 13%. The primary driver of this higher mobile percentage is the privacy, portability, and convenience that smartphones provide. Because of this, studies from major adult entertainment networks indicate the vast majority of adult content is accessed via a cell phone. Yeah, I read the other day that Pornhub, which is banned here in Tennessee, I do wanna say that.

Is that right?

You have to have an ID to access it. I do, that's correct. And that's how, that dude, that thing that they have, I think it's the, Tennessee Minors Act. Is that what it is? The Protect Tennessee Minors Act is a state law mandating that commercial websites and digital platforms containing a substantial portion of content harmful to minors implement reasonable age verification methods. So you have to, you have to enter your ID.

That's good stuff.

That's a huge thing because it makes you take some accountability. Okay, well, am I— is this something that I'm willing to say I do, right? Is this something I'm willing to put my name, my height, my date of— am I really, you know what I'm saying? Am I willing to go that far with it? I love that. I love that. Like there's been times where I've wanted to go look at stuff and that stopped me right there.

Great.

Yeah. So I do find that that is helpful because it like, yeah, I don't wanna put myself in there really. Like I wanna look at it as like this guy in the distance, right?

Have they seen fake IDs spiking right now? 'Cause people want—

That's a great question.

Good business perhaps.

Yeah. Around 7 to 11% of men self-report experiencing problematic pornography use or feeling addicted. I mean, that's unbelievable, man.

And it's just not porn, right? You look at the content that's on X, you look at the content that's on Instagram, Facebook Reels, right? That sexualized content can have the same effect on the brain as watching pornography. And so It's an issue. And so we live in a really tricky time right now because it's everywhere.

It's unbelievable that it exists. And it's unbelievable that we allow it as well. You know, that we allow it.

Well, there's also a societal thing with guys. Like, it's, "That's what guys do." Right? It's cool watching porn. And I'll tell you the truth. That ain't so cool. Guys don't do it together.

Guys watch a game together. I've never had a guy be like, "Hey, man, I'm having a couple of the guys over." To watch some porn?

Yeah. The thing that's really interesting to me is— here's the truth. So many men who abuse pornography, right? It affects their sexual performance. It affects how they show up in relationships, and it builds shame, right? So, so many men struggle with sexual performance. That's not a new thing. But what is new, and I think quite concerning, is how many of those men are under the age of 40. They turn to Cialis, Viagra, testosterone replacement therapy, thinking that something's wrong with them physically, when the truth is, and the reality is, is their sexual dysfunction is probably caused by all the porn they're consuming. So heavy porn use can rewire the brain. And even my own story—

Is that true?

Perhaps heavy porn use can rewire the brain and cause all, all types of problems in the bedroom. Like, even in my own story, right, I had difficulty getting and maintaining an erection during sex, especially with a partner. I had difficulty orgasming towards the end of my run with pornography. I had difficulty maintaining an erection, and I needed porn stimulation to stay aroused. And heavy porn use can absolutely lead to premature ejaculation. You know, one of the things I didn't share in my story, which is important to talk about, right? Because there's probably a bunch of your listeners right now listening, waiting for someone to tell the damn truth. You know, when I first started consuming porn early in my life, before that relationship, I struggled with premature ejaculation, and I had so much shame and embarrassment around it.

Hmm.

It got to a point where I'd rather not be with a woman than be with a woman and have that type of sexual performance.

You feel like you were just so nervous about sex? I mean, it makes sense. Sex is a nervous thing for a—

Well, I'll tell you a few things I didn't—

For a youngster.

I didn't realize a few things.

For the children. Sex is nervous for the children. You know, it's a nervous thing.

Even for adults.

Yeah.

And so what I didn't realize at that time was that all the porn that I was consuming and the way that I was actually masturbating to it kind of conditioned my brain to orgasm quickly. And that carried over to real-life scenarios. I didn't realize at that time that the intense porn that I was watching so overstimulated my brain, leading to early orgasm.

Wow.

So my porn use was tied to shame and secrecy, which fueled kind of anxiety around sex, making it kind of uncomfortable. And porn was the cause of this. Yeah. So that's one area, men, not so manly when you think about, hey, You know, is it really that cool? Right. Second challenge that guys tend to have, it can totally affect how guys show up in relationships.

Oh yeah, dude. Watching like, like touching your body or whatever, jerking off or whatever. It was like, it was like it just made it easier than having to go and try with women and having to go and have a relationship. It made it all just easier. And if you came from like an— for me, I just there was so much, it was so uncomfortable that I was like, I don't really, I mean, I guess I had a choice, but it just was too much of an easy alternative. It was like, I don't know how, like, you know, I'm so embarrassed or I'm so like, just have so low self-worth. So many little things that were like, man, I can't go ask this girl out or do, you know? So it became this little thing. And then this was the part that I was gonna get that you made me think about, sorry. Every— everything about sex felt like a secret, right? Like, I would— like, it was always like when I was growing up, we would go in the woods and see the tits or whatever chiseled in the wood or whatever, or you would sneak in.

Is that still around, you think?

I'm sure it's been— no, I think they had weevils or whatever got it. Damn weevils. I think it was that. I can't remember exactly, I have to look it up. Okay, but— or it could have been one of those new ticks that, uh, Bill Gates unleashed or whatever. But whatever, I'm sure it's gone these days, or it's really Yeah, it's eroded to an A-cup, you know, for sure.

And what's the point to visit it then, right?

Come on. At the time, those things were—

oh, I'm making a road trip for an A-cup, dude.

That woodpecker would land on one of them. That's big. Pretty nice. So, uh, but dude, the, the biggest thing when I think about, like, it was just like seek— everything was set— sex when I was young became like secretive. It became like secretive because Yeah, if you were looking at pornography, if you was doing masturbation, you was sneaking off and doing it. So everything became secret. So then like everything, like even when like dating, I never want anybody to know what was— I was very secretive about stuff. So it always had all this like a little bit of extra, like kind of taboo around it, I think. I don't even know what that means, but it was just like, you know, when things are in secret, it's, you know, they— things in secret can be kind of uncomfortable.

Yeah.

Because things you're always trying to hide can be kind of uncomfortable.

That's right. And I, you know, I think also that secrecy can lead to shame.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, you're always— if something's in secret, you're always worried somebody's gonna find out about it.

That's right.

And I didn't have any positive, like, uh, relationship with sex, or no, like, I didn't have any— not like I didn't— nobody taught me, told me nothing about it. It was just like your body, you change, and then you're like dealing with And I mean, I'm still waiting to get the birds and bees conversation from dad.

You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They should just have a decent man that travels around the country helping just have the birds and the bees conversation.

Like a temporary rented dad to have the conversation with you when you're like 12.

Yeah, just like some wiener Santa or whatever who— he travels around, he pulls up, you know what I'm saying? Do it outside where it's in —view of, you know, where the Lord can see it. But anyway, you were going into a second part about—

Relationships.

How it affects relationships. And dude, I'll even remember, like, if you've been— if I say if you, but if I'd been like, you know, doing, touching myself or whatever, jerking off or whatever like that, then I would— you're right when you said it's like it changed the amount of intimacy. Now it's like if my girl and I are going somewhere, maybe I don't— I wouldn't touch her elbow or like, you know what I'm saying? Or like give her a pinch or like, you know what I'm saying? I wouldn't create that energy. So a lot of that energy disappears. And that's the thing I think that we don't realize a lot.

Mm-hmm.

It's that little like that yin and yang, that whole thing that keeps like nature and society and really the future 'cause of procreation, which keeps it all in balance is this kind of tension. Right? A romantic kind of like samba between like, like her aura and mine. And pornography like weakens that. And then you're right, people take into their head, like a woman will take in her head like, oh, something's wrong with me, or he thinks I'm not this way, or I can't do these things.

Yeah.

Which is a net, you know what I'm saying? So it's just, it's a tough cycle. And I think a lot of it does fall on us men because we got to be stronger, you know? I'm not saying that I'm great at it or anything, But I do think that somebody's got to come to the rescue of us, and I think it has to be us.

Well, no one's coming to rescue us, right? You got to take accountability in your own life. But I think you really eloquently kind of laid out the dynamics that porn abuse can have in relationship.

Did I really?

You really did. That was really well said.

I feel bad about some of the, I feel like, dang, I wasted a couple relationships. I wasted some, and I wasted somebody's time and I wasted like, and I didn't even know it.

But yeah, some of that. You know it now. The only way you learn and grow.

Yeah.

And you know, what you often see when men abuse porn over time, they can lose attraction for their partners 'cause they can't compete with porn. I mean, how unfair is that? Yes. Right? There could be less desire for romance. I'll say it again, pornography abuse burns off the nerve endings of sensuality in relationships. Less touching, holding, kissing, caressing. So if I'm watching porn, you know, maybe I don't notice the waves in my wife's hair. If I'm watching porn, we hold hands less, perhaps. So pornography abuse can deaden the vibrancy of our partners, our wives, and our marriages. I mean, that kind of sucks.

Yeah, well, it dims the way you feel. For me, it dims the way I feel if I'm waking up. That's right. Like, oh, I still love— my first thought sometimes is if I'd looked at pornography the day before, it's like, oh man, I wish I hadn't done that. I think I cannot do it. You know, it's like, but you're always in this war. You know, it puts you always in like this battlefield.

It's like being hooked up to an IV drip of shame. And for not every guy, right? We're not talking about the casual use. We're talking about the compulsive use. And the other thing you tend to see Over time, the guys that end up abusing pornography— porn and masturbation just become the preferred sexual outlet.

Mm-hmm.

And shame and secrecy and guilt become the norm. And because of that shame, so many guys, especially our young guys, are not dating. They've given up on dating.

Mm-hmm.

They're not actually having physical sex. I read a stat not too long ago that 1 out of 3 men under the age of 30 have not had sex in the last year.

One out of three men?

One out of three men under the age of 30 have not had sex in the last year.

But some of those men could be 10 years old or whatever.

I would imagine— I didn't look at the fine print of the thing. I would imagine it probably told me age 18 to 30.

Oh, they should say that then.

They should probably. Yeah, good point.

Because yeah, if it's like, "Hey, this 5-year-old hasn't had sex," you're like, "Yeah, I hope not." Yeah, we want to know We'll fact-check this right now. Anyway, recent data from the General Social Survey indicates that nearly one quarter of young adults aged 18 to 29 reported having no sex in the past year. Looking specifically at younger single men under 30, the rate of sexlessness can climb closer to one-third. And then, bro, you know what happens? I think when, when you start to— when you start to like— when you dim the men in a culture, anything can come in there.

True.

It's like when you dim the warriors who are standing at the gate, anything can slip in there, you know? And then they come in and now they got the women on OnlyFans 'cause they're not in a relationship and there's not like a provider and there's not like a leader and you're not part of like a, we're doing this together, right? That's right. And then like everything's for sale. It's like, what's for sale now, you know? And I don't mean that, it's not, none of that's negativity at anybody. It's just like, It's just like, I don't know. Do I sound judgmental? I'm just kind of looking at— I think it all makes me just like, I don't know. I feel like we're stronger than this, but we are in a war.

Well, I think what you're highlighting and what I'm hearing you say is so many of our young men in particular, they lack confidence in themselves. They're full of shame, right? They can't handle rejection. Right? The world needs healthy, strong men. And pornography abuse is emasculating our men today.

That's what I'm saying.

That was definitely the case for me. 100%. But here's the deal. And I need your listeners to hear this right now.

Yeah, amen. 'Cause I don't wanna get stuck in the dour parts of it. No, no. And that things are not healable because that's not the truth.

That's not the truth. The truth is—

Let's go.

It is time to reclaim your damn manhood. Type shit. You know, seriously.

No, I feel you.

Enough is enough. Right. Enough is enough right now. There's a cesspool out there that are killing our men today. So let me tell you, in my own journey, when I got the right type of help, I was able to work through these sexual dysfunction. When I got the right type of help, I was able to be in a healthy relationship where I felt good about myself as a partner, as a man. So it's not just like Steve stops watching porn and everything fixes itself, right? Don't work that way. Right. It's a process of retraining your brain, your body, and your relationship to intimacy.

Amen. What were some of the first, like, the initial moments? Was there kind of like a day or a time in a rehab? Because you went to some different— is it okay to say that you went to some different rehabs? Yeah, I went to all of them.

You did?

Fuck your boy. Dude, Steve was an animal out there in the park. Like, his old partying stories are great, bro.

That's right.

You have some great ones. You know when I'm— And I'm not talking just sex, I'm not talking sexual, I'm talking like just the, your AA partying stories. And sometimes we tell those war stories because it keeps you out of the battle.

100%.

And you gotta laugh at 'em now. Oh dude, if I go to an AA meeting and I laugh with my friends about like times where we all used to do stupid stuff or something ridiculous.

That's right.

The feeling I get laughing with friends, I leave outta there, I don't wanna drink, I don't wanna use. Of course not. I don't wanna do anything harmful to myself because I've just felt connection and that gives me something that, that I'm supposed to have.

So like, you ever see like when maybe Theo Von or the Red Hot Chili Peppers go on tour, they have t-shirts that list all the cities they visited?

Yeah.

I did that with rehabs. Yeah.

So I mean, come on, dude.

And so—

Yeah. What was your tour called? Do you have a tour name?

I don't have a name for it. Maybe you could help me out with that. And so, you know, It's just the journey's the journey, man. Yeah. And so once again, it's, you know, it's about perseverance and not giving up. But I'll tell you some things that are interesting, that when I was able to get the right type of help as it relates to my porn addiction, I was able to stabilize my arousal.

Stabilize your arousal? Arousal. Okay. When I— tell me what that means. How do you say that?

You know, I was But pornography abuse so distorted my view of women. Pornography abuse had me in a constant place of euphoric recall and fantasy. Right? And so I had to learn how to not rely on that kind of dopamine-fueled kind of energy to deal with life. I had to learn how to build sensation for sexual experiences, to be present—

Amen, brother.

—in sexual experiences. So when I got into recovery, Dude, my sex life was so enjoyable, right? I learned how to kind of make love and connection and kissing and sensuality, all kind of beautiful stuff. When you get into recovery, oftentimes you hear you have better erections and more satisfying sex.

That's what I want. I want that super erection.

That's it. And you hear all the time when guys get into recovery and sustain recovery, it's so much more enjoyable. They're present for it. They're not full of shame. There's a confidence that comes from it.

Yeah, that's what I'll— yeah, I want that wiener that's like plays the game. Like, I feel like my wiener's like a designated hitter. Like, it'll get up to the plate. It's kind of like, but it knows it's not gonna be out in the field. It's just like showing up for the fricking, you know.

Ohtani's a DH sometimes.

Ohtani is? Yes.

Hmm.

So. Well, what are you trying to say? I got a small wiener?

I'm not sure you wanted to say that. I'm not sure what I was saying with that. Although he hits a lot of home runs, so.

Hey, there we go.

That's what we talking about.

Yeah.

We might take that part out, which is fine. So you're saying like, you know, and you noticed that, like, do you remember, do you remember like a first experience where you kind of noticed something small that you were like, oh wow, these things that I'm doing in recovery are working? And then what were some of the things that you were doing in recovery?

Well, I did a bunch in recovery, right? And so I did a lot of therapy. I was really active in 12-step recovery. I was, you know, had my own personal coaches that were really helpful. And I'll tell you, I believe that recovery is a team sport. I think men need other men to become better men.

Amen.

I think men need vulnerability role models. Men need love and support. Men need to run other men that have similar life experiences around sex to transcend the shame that's keeping our lives small.

Praise God, bro.

That's the truth. I think that's really, really important. I think men heal best in community as it relates to sexual compulsivity. And so—

It's so hard to heal in shame by yourself.

You can't. I don't think you can. I know, man. I don't think you can.

It's tough for people.

Yeah. So I think, you know, in conjunction with that, so many men today are so isolated and so lonely. And so that's the driver of some of these behaviors. So once again, the roadmap to healing has to lay the groundwork for connection and community. And so where you practice kind of being part of something bigger than yourself, you practice honesty, you practice vulnerability, it gets modeled to you. Really important for men to see other men living this way.

Like in recovery circles and stuff? 100%. Oh yeah, man. Oh, I'll sometimes, man, I'll be in a meeting and it's like some guy will say something. My friend James Bashara, he always tells me, He says, "We are the keys to each other's locks." That's what he says.

Mm, that's sweet.

It's one of the best things, man. I think about it every single day. You know, it's like something that gives me hope, I think, a lot of times. Yeah, because it's like somebody will say something, man, that like something inside of me has been trying to say my whole life and I just couldn't put the right few words together. It doesn't even have to be big, huge words or fancy words. Sometimes it's just a simple thing, but somebody will say it. And a part of me will exhale that's been waiting to exhale for so long.

How sweet is that?

Yeah. Oh, it's amazing, man. So yeah, I can't iterate how much recovery and the community, right? Yeah. And then the fact that, dude, sometimes I'll notice, especially these days, we get so caught up in our own worlds, but it almost feels like a gift when I think about when somebody else comes into my mind or heart. Like there's times where I purposely sit down, I wanna think about people and stuff. But if I'm just like, I'll be like, oh, I just saw them the other day and they mentioned this, lemme call and check in about it. Or just something that's like, if it's about somebody else, bro, that's like the, when that happens naturally in my head, it's the best thing that ever happened to me. And it's just because of community. That's right. But it only happens if I go to those meetings, if I'm interacting with guys.

That's right.

If I'm a part of community.

Right. And you need guys in your life like, okay, Theo, enough with the show. What's really going on?

Right.

You need guys like that.

Oh, dude, to tell somebody that, bro, I'm fucking— yeah, like this one, I was in a meeting this morning, man. I'm trying to— let me think about what I said. If I'm really honest, right? I got into a meeting. A lot of times I'll do a Zoom in the mornings. You and I go to one that's similar. Is that okay to say?

Please.

And I'll be in the gym, I'll work out while I'm in there. So I'll listen because it helps me get two things done. It makes me feel pretty like I'm doing something. And what'd I say today? Oh, I'm trying to keep some negative things outta my head. So I'm staying focused, I'm staying on a path, like I'm staying active. 'Cause if I stay active, I stand a better chance when those things come into my head. And I was trying to be honest to guys like, hey, these are some of the things that I've been thinking about. I know that these things grow. If I don't share about them at this level, At this level of being a seed, I know it'll grow into a cactus that I don't want inside of me. So I have to share it at a seed, right? I had to learn a lot of times. I friggin' juggled a lot of cactuses because, but learning to share something at a seed level.

Calling it out early.

Calling it out early, yes. And then just at like, yeah, like I'm so sick of myself, but I feel like I'm the only person that I have. And that was like, and I know it's not true, but to share, even if it's a feeling, right? Because once I shared this feeling, I know it's not true. I have a ton, I have a lot of friends. I have people that love me, but sometimes I have to share what a feeling is, right? So it doesn't, 'cause that feeling sometimes can grow if I don't share it, it sits in there, you know? Anyway, does that make any sense?

I make, you know, it's so interesting as you're sharing, I'm just thinking about this concept of like, Recovery is about this journey towards healthy masculinity. And when you think about the word masculinity often gets conflated with toxicity today, which I think is kind of unfair.

Oh, it's unfair. And I think it's by design.

That's right. Masculinity to me is what you just talked about. Honesty, integrity, vulnerability. Courage, being a protector, being a provider, being a great friend, showing up for others and living a life that's bigger than just yours.

Yeah.

And so when you think about like this journey of recovery, this journey to becoming a healthy man, what a beautiful journey it is, right? You think about like, you know, porn abuse teaches us and trains us to objectify and disrespect women. I think healthy masculinity is about humanizing women.

Women are beautiful and amazing. Yeah, and we came from a woman. Like, I wonder what the effects are See if you can find something about this. What are the effects of pornography on young men's relationship with their mothers, of watching pornography? You know what I'm saying? Like, if you start— because it's like, I do notice when I'm healthy and I'm taking care of myself, I'm able to view the women in my life differently, right? And I'm able to view them how they should be viewed.

Kaffee in seiner besten Form. Mit Qubo wird jeder Kaffee auf Knopfdruck zum Genussmoment. Denn mit der neuen Qubo One Kapselmaschine von Qubo genießt du feinsten Spitzenkaffee aus besonderen Anbaugebieten. Vollmundige Aromen dank innovativer Press Brew Technologie und über 17 Sorten Kaffee für jeden Geschmack. Erlebe Premiumkaffee schon ab 29 €. Entdecke jetzt die Qubo Kapselmaschinen in deiner Qubo Filiale und auf qubo.de.

I'm telling you this right now, that Shopify Shopify is hands down the best place to start and grow a business these days. If you're trying to start your own thing, you need to know them. We use them. They've helped us put a store together and have it adjust as we adjust. When things are busier, we can up it, and when things are not as busy, we can down it. Shopify is the platform where you really own everything— your store, your community, all of it. Plus Shopify gets your products in front of shoppers wherever they are. Google, YouTube, TikTok Shop, the Shop app, and even ChatGPT. ChatGPT. We use them for our merch store. Yep, I told you that. Shopify, they made me realize, look, you can't do it alone. Thought about starting a business? This is your sign. Get started today at shopify.com/tak. THEO. That's shopify.com/THEO. Today's episode is brought to you by Manscaped, the men's grooming brand trusted by over 13 million men worldwide. That's a lot of men. Now let's be real, a lot of these grooming tools, they overcomplicate stuff and they, and they don't perform that well. Some of them you gotta whistle into the back end of it to even get 'em started or something, or they run on diesel or whatever.

It's too much. So if you've got a beard or you're thinking about upgrading your setup at the house to take care of your hair, the new Beard Hedger+ from MANSCAPED™— well, it's just dag gum worth checking out. I've used a lot of trimmers and this and that and, you know, just butter knives. I've used it all. I've sharpened a butter knife and tried to take care— you know, things get clunky. This one's simple. Yep! I've been using one— I've had it for 2 weeks now. If you want something simple that actually works and upgrades your routine, the Beard Hedger Plus is the way to go. Head to manscaped.com and use code Theo to get 15% off and free shipping. That's 15% off your entire order plus free shipping with code Theo at manscaped.com or if you need it today you can just... Go find Manscaped at a store near you. Yo! You know, I think a lot of guys are in hiding. I think a lot of us are afraid to say that we know that we're in a war and everybody's going and fighting behind closed doors. And that's kind of crazy when you think about that.

That's kind of—

Scary.

That's scary. Scary.

Right? Scary.

And how can— is there a way to win it that way? I don't know.

Well, you know, I could tell you from the life I live today, I mean, I don't feel like I'm in a war, you know? I have a life that's kind of rooted in love.

Bro, you've changed so much since I met you, man.

Yeah, I have.

You give me hope for the life I could live, man.

That's right. And you know—

You really do.

I'm glad.

You do. And you were always everybody's favorite. You said earlier that people cared about you or like there was something, there was always somebody like—

Yeah.

Your family's always, you were like the guy in the meetings, dude. It was like, 'cause we went to meetings that had like some fancy people in 'em.

Real fancy. Some tall people too.

Oh yeah. Tall guys, all types of—

One tall guy anyway.

Yeah.

Couple of real grade A perverts, right? The crème de la crème, right?

That's right.

But bro, and it was, but bro, we got in those rooms and we, here's the thing, we laughed in there. We were, people were honest. We laughed. But yeah, you were always like, dude, I wish I could be friends with Steve.

That's sweet.

It was the truth, though.

Thank you. And you just made it— it's so important to laugh in recovery.

Oh, dude, people, you got to realize this shit. It is. People laugh so much. It's not just this dour thing.

No, no. Because this stuff is dark.

It's heavy.

And dude, laughing at each other. I think laughter is so good for the soul, man. You read the news right now, it's so heavy. You listen to the news, it's so heavy. Finding a place to be lighthearted, to have fun and to laugh is so healing.

Oh, yeah, man.

You know how many guys I struggle with that I talk to and work with that are struggling? And if I can get them on the phone and I can get them to laugh.

Amen.

Oh, dude. Oh yeah. It just takes it from a 9 out of 10 to a 6 out of 10.

Yes.

And it's just so important to let the air out of the balloon with laughter.

What are the things, how do guys not realize, okay, here, Trevin found something right here. I'm gonna interject real quick here to go back 'cause I'd never thought about that before. Does it affect the way I look at my sister, my mother, women in my life and world? Could be your teacher, anyone, if you're consuming pornography. How porn-shaped beliefs affect views of mothers. This article explains that frequent exposure to pornography reinforces rigid gender norms and the objectification of women, where women are seen primarily as sexual objects rather than full complex people.

Yeah.

As these attitudes become part of a teenage boy's belief system, he may begin to see women, including his mother, through a more dehumanized, stereotyped lens We're getting genuine mutual respect.

Ah. And I'll tell you, the challenge today with what you just read is so many men today started watching porn when they're 10, 11, 12 years old, right? That was like they're part of a generation where the iPhone just came out. And so they had access to porn at this very early stage of their life. And so by the time you get to work with them in treatment or therapy and you hear about like their childhood, they've had pretty normal childhoods. Normal, right? Not a lot of trauma as we would understand trauma. The trauma is the porn that they started watching at 10 years old. And it's just kind of intense porn. You know how many guys you hear like 10, 11, 12 years old watching rape porn?

Oh.

I mean, how painful is that when you think about that?

Well, yeah, you have to know. Oh, it's unbelievable.

It's unbelievable.

And you have to know that these companies, and I'm not setting myself apart from anybody, like I've been down these roads, you know, but you have to know that these companies, this is strategy by them. This is, I believe, I don't think that the people that work in porn or sex work or anything like that, I don't have any ill thoughts or any, any of that towards anybody like that that's involved in it. I just think as a— in mass, that they don't have the best— these companies don't have the best interest for us, right? Like a lot of the pornography now, it's like mother-son, grandmother-son, you know?

Like, you can't unsee that.

Right, right. And it also makes you think, it's like, well, these are the most important relationships in the world. World, boss, secretary, you know, or just like whatever it is, sisters, you know, it's like they're taking the most valuable relationships that have been given to us by, uh, our creator and by the world and even by science. And they're trying to manipulate those that they don't have any value to us other than sexual, some sexual, uh, perversion.

And if you're 12, 13, 14 years old consuming this stuff, how are you supposed to process that?

Yeah, and just even seeing the words while you're looking at pornography, you see the word mother, son, father, daughter. It's all like, it's all a strategy. The devil is at work. I believe that, you know, it's the dark arts. And I'm not saying that I don't wade through the waters of them, you know, but that's one thing that you said. It's like we continue to fight, we don't give up. You know, and you learn so much along the way. Yeah. Yeah, before we keep moving on, I wanna ask you too, Steve, are there things that could be happening that mothers or fathers might not see that how their use of pornography or like checking out like that sexually, checking out of like their environment, you know, they're used to watching pornography could be affecting things with their interactions with their children or their home life?

Uh, yeah, totally. You know, it's so interesting as, as a—

Because sometimes you don't correlate that. No, you don't. You know what I'm saying? You just think, man, my marriage isn't working, but separately I'm watching porn.

That's right. And so when you think about the idea of healthy masculinity, being in recovery and being a father, right? So I'm a new father right now, and you know, my son's young, he's almost about a year right now, but just the responsibility I have in modeling to him how you treat a woman. Really important, right? The kindness that I show his wife, getting to see affection, touch, all that stuff is really important. I don't— you know, you— I know your story from your childhood. You know my story from my childhood. That wasn't necessarily modeled to us. And so if you're watching pornography, right? And as a result of that, it's distorting your view of women. Can be challenging, right? You think maybe they don't know. Trust me, they know. They may not know you're watching porn, but that energy you have, that you can't hide that.

Yeah, it's a little bit of shame. It's a little bit of I'm keeping something secret.

That's right.

It's a little bit of something's wrong. And it's a little bit of I'm scared somebody's going to figure this out and I don't even know what it is.

Well, you know what happens to also guys that abuse porn? Right? They're just not present for their lives.

Yeah.

They're not showing up for their kids, right? They're on their phones. They're consumed in fantasy. They're not present. They're missing life.

Yeah.

You're missing life. And so when you guys get into recovery, dude, you see this all the time. They start coaching flag football teams and loving it. They're able to show up in their lives and be present. They're better fathers, they're better husbands. They're emotionally regulated.

Yeah, they're not involved. It's almost like porn is like your wiener playing video games.

That's interesting.

It's not real. If you walked into a room every day and your wiener was playing a video game, at some point you'd be like, "Turn it off and get the fuck up and go outside." You know what I'm saying? Like you would tell, you want your mate—

Depends on what video game.

That's a good point. That's true if it's Castlevania or something, yeah. But I'm just saying like, Anyway, I don't know what I'm saying. That's one thing I noticed in meetings when I've been in, when people share and people start to get better, they start to say, man, like today I had the desire to spend time with my kids, to engage, to go outside and do this with my daughter, to flirt with my wife in the kitchen. I walk in the house and there's a look on my face that I'm excited to see this person that loves me. Just little things like that that I've heard guys share in meetings that are like, that just let me know that recovery's real, you know?

And the joy of living.

Yeah, what have you seen recovery look like for people? Like, what are some testimonials that you've experienced in the rooms?

Yeah.

And even through Valor?

Yeah, and so lots of good stuff. Let me think of a few good ones that might be, well, I'll share a story. One of our first clients, 62-year-old man, been abusing porn for about 40 years. Long time. And by the time he got to Valor, he was 6 years sober in Alcoholics Anonymous. But he was in so much pain. He had not been divorced for 10 years, had not had sex in 10 years, and was so full of shame. And when I first met with him, I was trying to get some goals. Like, what do you want to try to accomplish here? And he said, "I wanna stop watching porn." I said, "Awesome, we're gonna help you do that. What else? Tell me what a play with." And he just couldn't get there. Just make something up. Tell me a long-term goal. If you had like a genie in a bottle, you had a wish, gimme something. I'll never forget what he said. He said, "You know something, Steve? For as long as I can remember now, on Sundays I go grocery shopping." Mm-hmm. By myself for the week, and I see families shopping and couples shopping, and it's so lonely.

Mm-hmm.

He goes, one day I'd like to go shopping with a girl I'm dating.

Mm.

I said, okay. You know, about 8 months later, that guy sent me a shot of him and his girlfriend grocery shopping. And it broke me. And I remember telling my wife this story and just crying. And she's like, "What's coming up for you?" And she can't really understand because two things: I know that pain of loneliness and I know how good it feels to be free of it. Wow. Great story. Love that story on what's on offer here.

That's what's on offer here, huh?

Yeah. The joys of living, finding love. Another great story. You hear this with consistency. I get a phone call with a guy that's maybe sober 6, 9 months. This one guy in particular, and he says, Steve, last night I was on the couch staring at my wife, and it's like I'm seeing her for the first time, and I can't believe how pretty she is.

Wow.

Like, to me, hearing that brings me so much joy. When you kind of— that fog lifts, that porn-induced, shame-based fog lifts, and you can actually see life in color versus black and white. What a gift, you know?

Yeah, man.

And then you see guys that get time. This is what drives me wild. They get time, they get 6 months, 9 months, a year away from pornography, and wild stuff starts happening. They go back to grad school, they launch a new business, they get a big raise. Like, what the hell's that gotta do with you not watching porn?

Yeah.

The answer's everything. Because what's happening now is you are transcending the shame that's keeping your life small.

Mm.

You always hear like a guy all of a sudden, Guy lacks confidence in himself. He's so full of shame, lives a double life. He walks into a restaurant, can never actually make eye contact with that woman at the bar. He maybe looks over, puts his head down, and walks to his table. He's now 9 months sober, right? He makes eye contact, walks over, introduces himself.

Yeah.

And they're now engaged.

Let's go!

These are the stories of recovery. Didn't mention anything about not watching porn. Not watching porn is just the point of entry. Learning how to live a life that you don't need to escape from is what recovery is all about. Recovery is about learning how to experience the joys of love and connection.

Mm.

So one simple question I tell guys all the time. It's real simple. It's real simple. Is your porn use bringing you closer to or further away from the man you want to be? And if you don't like the answer to that question, what are you willing to do about it?

Yeah. Yeah. I've been in a lot of the meetings where I've seen guys share about stuff and you've seen a guy have a new experience.

It's the best.

When does a lot of this— is there a time that you notice how and when a lot of this starts for a lot of guys, Steve? Have you been able to put together any theories about that?

Younger and younger. Because you've talked a lot about Valor on your podcast, we have seen a lot of younger men in their 20s. When I first started Valor, I thought I would work with guys like me, older professional men that are dealing with a porn addiction, sexual compulsivity, and need to get help. And we've worked with a fair amount of that. But because of your fan base, there are a lot of single men in their 20s. And challenging dynamic because they're not married, they're not in a relationship, there's no external consequences. And they've been doing this for like 10, 15 years. Right. And so it's like, you know, they've been in full-blown addiction for over a decade and they're 22 years old.

They don't even realize it. Don't even realize it. That's the craziest part. Wild. Wild. It's just like a regular habit. It's like taking a melatonin.

100%. It's just part of their life.

Yeah.

It has rewired and conditioned their brain, and they're full of so much shame and they lack such confidence in themselves. So breaking them free of porn, it's interesting. How do you motivate and inspire a guy like that to stay on this journey? How do you create motivation in their life to continue on this path, even though their path can be choppy at times.

Mm, yes. Yeah.

How do you get that guy to continue to show up and not be in shame if he watches a little bit of porn? Right? That guy can be getting better, watching 80 to 90% less porn over any given month. Great job. Keep coming back.

Mm-hmm.

If you return to the behavior and you relapse or return to use, own it quickly. Talk about it, learn from it, and keep growing.

Yeah.

And so motivating younger men is a little different, and to create inspiration. Because here's the truth. They're so isolated and so disconnected. They have significantly less friends than decades before. Everything is kind of online. Everything is virtual. And so the loneliness is profound.

Well, it's part of existence. It's not like— I think some people, you don't even notice that you're lonely anymore. That's one of the wildest things. Things. You'll spend all day by yourself, but you won't really notice that you're— because you have some interactions, you see people, you see them. So there's all this hijacking of things that are real that would normally make you feel like you have— are not alone. You see people, you hear voices, you know. I mean, you're, you know, you can even engage with people.

I don't know, hearing voices is perhaps the best.

It's like you can see people on phone or on your computer, you can, you can do FaceTime. Like, you can— so there's all these, like, like these secondary little pieces, but the connection, the true, the reality—

And remote work certainly doesn't help. I mean, there are guys that just don't leave their home.

Well, yeah, it's like you could basically go to work online, you could get off work, get some, order some food online, then you could, uh look at pornography or something, go to bed, and that's your day and that's your existence. And you're just sort of this thing. But there's so much— we're supposed to be so much more than that. I think some of it has become almost just this habit that we don't even know that we're in.

Yeah, I could see that.

And I mean, yeah, and I'm not preaching at anybody. I think it's just like, I don't know, just the re— like the awareness that you could be in something and not realize it is something kind of wild.

You know? Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. And what are some—

I want to ask you, outside of Valor, because you run Valor Recovery, that's your program. And thank you so much. I know there was a lot of guys who kind of came in through the podcast who you were trying to help and offer recovery to. So thank you so much for having conversations with those guys over the years.

And by the way, so many of those guys are are killing it right now.

Are they?

Yes, they are. And I'm going to say this to you because it needs to be heard. There are so many men that because of your vulnerability on this podcast, talking about your challenges around that, gave them the courage to reach out and ask for help. So your vulnerability is a gift to this world.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, sometimes it's scary to be vulnerable. I don't know. It's not scary. It's like, I don't know. I don't know any other way to live, really. I don't think I know any other way to live. I don't know. I don't know. Sometimes I think I share too much, probably.

Well, I could tell you as it relates to this topic, I can't tell you how many conversations we've had in the thousands now where the conversation starts Theo said it was okay to talk about this. I've shared those stories with you over the years.

Yeah, I know you have. I appreciate it.

That's important, man.

Yeah.

It's important stuff. What a gift.

Yeah. I mean, it's tough to know that a lot of people are hurting. It's tough to know that we've all hurt. It's tough to know that most of the people that I love the most have hurt a lot of us, me included. And we didn't just end up— Yeah, I'm just glad I've met a lot of good guys through recovery. There wouldn't be a program if you didn't do it.

That's right. And the great thing about recovery is you can live a life that's superior to the life you were living.

Yeah, that's the truth.

That's the beauty of it. And so not easy sometimes to get there, but if you stay the course, you don't give up, you keep leaning into this, you're gonna build a life that brings you joy, where you don't need to engage in behaviors to numb the pain that you're in. That's a process.

Yeah. What are some of the triggers that you see, that you notice? Is that okay to ask?

Yeah, there's just patterns, right? So many men struggle with profound loneliness and boredom. They're disconnected, they're alone. And so when you look at these urges, right, there tends to be a predictability to when you're vulnerable to them, right? So late at night, scrolling on your phone, Dude, leave the phone. Don't bring the phone in the bedroom.

Yeah, shut it down.

Simple fix. Well, Steve, I work all week long. Friday nights I'm by myself and there's just this period of time right now of unstructured time where I'm really vulnerable. Okay, let's make a plan around that. Why don't you book dinner? Why don't you bookend the evening with a friend of yours so you're not alone right now? Make a dinner date with a friend right now. Get out of the house. And so there's just these patterns that men experience as it relates to stress, Boredom and loneliness. And so when you pull up and kind of look at this stuff, right, and learn from this stuff, you can— men don't plan to fail, they fail to plan. And so working with people that understand this can go a long way to putting you on the path to being successful.

Amen, man. Yeah.

The other thing that's really tricky today is social—

Even going for a walk with a friend, just go for a walk. Dude. Dude, my best times—

Maybe we'll go for a walk after this, me and you.

Yeah, I'll go for a walk with you.

Yeah, sure.

You got a little time?

Oh, I'll make time.

I'd love it, dude. Yeah, bro. Thank you, bro. Dude, there's nothing better than going for a walk with one of your friends. It might seem like, and even if y'all are straight, y'all can do it. Even if you're not straight, you could do it. But some of that stuff got hijacked by the gay community, I think. Like just going for a walk with your buddy. I'm not saying it did.

Yeah.

But it got slightly hijacked. Just a hint. Hey, we gotta take our pedestrian rights back. But anyway, what were we saying?

We were talking about triggers.

Oh yeah. So that's one for me. I noticed things that would lead me to do masturbation or be touching my body sometimes like that, looking at pornography, stress, right? I'm up later than I need to be. A lot of times I'll have a deal with myself. I have a plan to go to bed. Shit'll happen. Shit'll happen with work. Next thing you know, I'm up 45 minutes later. I can't handle it, right? So now it's like I gotta go to sleep. I'll think that masturbation will help me go to sleep, right? What else?

Social media.

Yeah, social media. Just, I know that that keeps me up late. So I do a pretty good job of that. Like I know now when I open up, there's nothing super good in there. You know, I'll maybe say, "All right, I'm gonna go for 30 seconds." You find one thing that's kind of engaging and I'm shutting it down. I'm starting to realize what a Pandora's box it is.

It really is. And you know, So the science will support that, like these dopamine spikes from this endless scrolling on social media. And you look at the sexual content on social media, it may not be full porn, but it can be pretty explicit.

Yeah.

And so it's a real problem because it's this funnel. And oftentimes guys in early recovery get tripped up because they're on Instagram right now. There's this kind of image, which is a link to an OnlyFans account, and all of a sudden they're back in the dance. Yeah. So that's really important. That's kind of endless scrolling and endless seeking novelty can be really challenging.

Because then the alternative is though, you have to think about what that is and you have to plan for that in your head. I noticed for myself, right? So if I'm not gonna be scrolling, I might just be laying there in my bed, right?

And what's wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with it. But at first it can feel a little bit uncomfortable. Oh, I should be doing something. Those are the feelings I go through. I should be doing something, right? And, you know, you're like, well, what would that be? So at first it's a little tough. Now sometimes my mind will start to just imagine or think of things, which is kind of nice, right? Like if it's not negative stuff, it's like my mind, it's like daydreaming or something. Used to be something people did a lot, daydreaming.

Mm-hmm.

But so that can happen, or I can read, or I can just go to sleep. But there is a little bit of like an uncomfortable moment sometimes where it's like, ah, I should be doing something. But I'm not really playing. I don't really mean I should be doing something. I usually mean I should just be looking at something on my phone.

Can you tolerate the boredom in that moment or do you need to go get a quick fix?

I'm doing meditation pretty regularly now. Good. So I'm having a little bit more toleration with it.

It's important.

Yeah. I'm having a little more toleration with it.

Like the short-form videos, these kind of quick fixes on all these social media is such a distraction. Right. And so getting time away from your phone.

Oh yeah, that's key.

Long-form reading, hobbies, creativity, working on projects, I think are so healthy for you.

Yeah, I think, yeah, doing things, building a little birdhouse, doing something like that, getting excited about leap year, just doing regular shit.

When is leap year?

You know, huh?

When is next leap year?

We'll never know, bro, because before you know it, it's gone.

That's right.

That's how it is. That's right.

I missed a lot of leap years over the years.

Who hasn't, twin? Let's look at some of the stats. What did you have, Trevin? I wanna get in a little bit of information here. I wanna say this just so people, to give a little bit more context to pornography overall. Pornhub was the 5th most visited website in the world by December 2020. Just if people don't think that we are at war, right? Some people think like, like, oh America, we're safe. We're not, we're at war. Pornhub had about 170 million visits per day and 62 billion visits per year. And that was 2020. The amount of content uploaded to Pornhub in a single year would take about 169 years to watch if you played the videos back to back. And this was some information because there's sometimes you're watching stuff on there where the people in it have not consented to it being put online, some, or that it was even recorded. And sometimes that it's not, that they haven't consented even to the sex in the video, right? The Broward County, Florida case, this was a case, a 15-year-old girl missing for a year was found only after a Pornhub user recognized her and tipped off her mother.

Oh, God.

Police eventually found her in 58 monetized videos on the site. So just to know how Pornhub is okay with operating. Lila Mickelwait, who came on here, and she has done a great job with exposing the porn industry for the negative aspects of it. The London Sunday Times investigation, reporters were able to find dozens of illegal videos on the site within minutes, including videos of children as young as 3 that were on Pornhub.

Hmm.

Um, so just to let you know, like, the kind of stuff that can be happening on there, uh— oh, nice, so Lila tested that. Uh, oh, at the time Lila tested the upload flow to just see how easy it was to just put something up, all it took to upload a video was an email address. There was no ID or age verification, no consent verification required for people in the videos. Huh. Anyone with a smartphone could upload a video in under 10 minutes from anywhere in the world. So anyway, it just gives a little more context to what we're even watching because sometimes you're looking at something and you don't even really know what it is.

Or where it came from.

Or where it came from. Right. And if you can add some context to it, it makes it a little bit different.

So many of those people have been either physically or sexually abused in their childhood, have been trafficked. Sometimes this is non-consent. And, uh, there's just a gross element to a lot of it.

There is. And you get— you kind of get tricked in a little, I think, in a way. You don't maybe realize it. I don't know, especially if you're kind of susceptible. Um, oh yeah, this right here. I remember this. Visa and MasterCard suspend payments for ad purchases on Pornhub and MindGeek amid controversy. Um, Visa and MasterCard said Thursday card payments for advertising on Pornhub and its parent company MindGeek would be suspended after a lawsuit stoked controversy over whether the payment giants could be facilitating child pornography. Uh, Visa condemns sex trafficking, sexual exploitation, and child sexual abuse. It is illegal, and Visa does not permit the use of our network for illegal activity. Because Visa was being accepted on these websites.

Mm.

So it's kind of crazy. It's like, okay, so you're saying that if this is happening on these websites, then you're okay with your—

Kind of complicit, right?

You're kind of complicit. Give me an update on that if you can. And who owns— MindGeek changed to AYLO. I remember that. A-Y-L-O. Who owns that company? Ethical Capital Partners.

Of course they do. Of course they do.

Unbelievable. Parent organization is Ethical Capital Partners. Key ECP leadership is Fadi Mansour, a managing partner, Rocco Miliambro, and Solomon Friedman. Um, through its parent company, ECP owns some of the most highly trafficked digital networks in the adult entertainment industry, including Pornhub, RedTube, YouPorn, Brazzers, and Min.com. Find photos of those guys if you can, just so we can put the faces with, uh, just who they are. And that's all according to what site? Wikipedia. Okay, that's all Google and Wikipedia. So, um, yeah, give me pictures of those 3 guys. Let's put them up just so people know who is— who feels like it's okay, you know. And I do want to say, most recently I saw there was a— there was an art— there was a story I saw where, um, one of the financial companies failed to stop a payment for— was it OnlyFans? It was something that was— MasterCard, Visa failed to stop payments on OnlyFans for child sex abuse content, says a whistleblower. Let me see. Mastercard and Visa failed to stop their payment networks from laundering proceeds from child sex abuse material and sex trafficking on the popular website OnlyFans, according to allegations in a previously undisclosed whistleblower complaint filled with the U.S. Treasury's Financial Crimes Unit.

The complaint was filed in January 2023. The complaint said the whistleblower and other anti-trafficking experts, including U.S. federal agents, alerted Visa and Mastercard to unlawful content on OnlyFans OnlyFans in a series of calls in 2021 and 2022. The federal agents corroborated the presence of child sexual abuse material on OnlyFans, the complaint said. It also drew heavily on a 2022 study by an anti-trafficking group that said it had found a high volume of OnlyFans accounts with common indicators of child sexual abuse material or sex trafficking. The whistleblower said he helped with the study, which was shared with the card companies. Um, in the interview, the whistleblower said the agency's never contacted him to discuss his complaint. The card companies had the power to turn off the switch to stop illicit material from being monetized. So there's just, you know, it goes to that place. I guess there's like a— there's a business element to it. A Visa spokesperson said financial institutions and merchants that don't comply with Visa's robust compliance requirements will be terminated from its network The company uses best-in-class controls to deter, detect, and remediate illegal activity. If there's anything else I should in there, let me know.

Um, since the whistleblower complaint was filed, Reuters uncovered more allegations of child sexual abuse and sex trafficking on OnlyFans, a porn-driven site that generates money through subscriptions and pay-per-view content.

Huh.

I mean, those companies also so big, I bet it's so hard to police everything.

Sure.

And that was just a complaint, Trevin? That's right, not a ruling. Um, but it was officially filed.

It's on the record.

Okay, got it. Okay, thank you so much. Um, tell me a little bit about, um, Valor Recovery. And this, this episode was not intended at all to be an ad for your company or anything like that.

Sure.

But, um, you know, this is just such a thing, and you're the guy that I know, and we've been friends for so long Um, but tell me about Valor, and thank you for starting it.

Yeah, thank you. Valor Recovery is a company I founded many years ago now that helps men that are struggling with pornography abuse and sexual compulsivity. Uh, it's a virtual program. You know, what we have found over the years is so many men struggle getting help for this, finding the right type of help. Um, using community-based resources are more challenging because of shame and stigma.

Like, what do you mean by that? Like going to a meeting locally?

Going to a meeting locally, going to a program locally. People are just— they're so concerned given the nature of this, and they don't take advantage of those resources. So creating a virtual program that can be accessible with a click of a button, right, is amazing, right? And offering something that's more discreet just helps guys feel more comfortable getting help. And so virtual program, it's a coaching program. And the thing that's really unique about that, what we have found is so many men, uh, benefit from coaching on this topic. Different than therapy. Therapy is very valuable as well, but coaching is around accountability, setting goals, learning new skills, and practicing those skills so you think and feel differently about yourself over time.

Got it. Yeah, you have to put something on the other side of the scale. That's one thing I've learned in recovery. I'm not saying I do it all the time, but you can't just— you have to put something on the other side of the scale that has valuable weight to it.

I think that's right. And so, you know, the program is unique. One of the unique aspects around it, everyone that works at Valor Recovery is in recovery. Long-term sexual recovery. So they— these are men that have 10 years, 20 years, in several cases, 30 years of sexual sobriety.

Wow.

Why is that important? It's just the shared life experience puts us in a very unique position to help people, to understand people, because we've been there. We are you. So collectively, this team has helped thousands of people over their lifetimes deal with these challenges, right? So that's really important. It's a program that really is set up with small intimate groups so that men learn to be part of a community.

Got it.

Men learn how to connect with each other. You know, the opposite of addiction is often not recovery, it's often said to be connection. And so we're a program that offers small group settings, process groups, there's curriculum around, you know, how to deal with urges and triggers, identify root causes that are driving compulsions, curriculum around healthy intimacy, healthy sexuality, and healthy masculinity.

Amen.

And so we've had a lot of men come to this program and get better. It's something we take a lot of pride in. Now, it's not easy work. I can promise you that it's not easy work. But we take a lot of pride in helping men become the men God intended them to be. And whatever that word God means to you, higher self, whatever that is, we help men and put them in alignment with their higher self so they can go on and do good things in their lives.

Are there guys or women out there who may not have a problem specifically with porn, but is there other things they could be having a problem with?

Yeah, I think what you're asking me is if the, can people be suffering from other behaviors other than pornography?

That could be having the same outcome for them.

That's correct.

Yeah, that's what I'm asking you.

Is it relationship compulsivity? Infidelity in relationships, prostitution. I mean, there's just a host of behaviors that can manifest itself that are just really unhealthy for people. And so man or woman doesn't necessarily have to be pornography. And so the answer is yes. And there are just a lot of great resources out there for both men and women to deal with these issues, whether it's working with a therapist, that may be trained in sexual compulsivity or sex addiction. There are great 12-step programs out there, different fellowships for men and women. Sex Addicts Anonymous, Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous, Sexaholics Anonymous, that men and women that are community-based, 12-step-based programs that could be really valuable. They're great.

Adult Children of Alcoholics. Sorry to interrupt you. I just don't want to forget.

100%.

There's a lot of important— Yeah, people don't realize that there's things out there that it's like, Like you might be like, well, I'm not this, I don't have this, but maybe my parent did. And you lived in the shadows of it, or, uh, you lived as a recipient of the byproducts of it. Um, there's recovery stuff for that. And we're not saying everybody needs recovery, but we're saying that this, some of this stuff is a big issue that's facing people and we both struggle with it. So shit, other people might.

And that's right. And I think the one thing you can listen to, this is not a life sentence, not a death sentence, man. You can get better for sure. You can absolutely get better and you can live that life that you've dreamed of. It's going to take work, but there are great people out there to help you.

Yes.

And so if you're struggling, I mean, have the courage to reach out and get some help.

Yeah. And we'll put links to like Valor. We'll put links to Sex and Love Addiction, Intimacy Disorder Anonymous. Just we'll put a link to some of those things in this so people can check it out. There's like some online, like Zoom sex addiction meetings that you can go to. Can I share that publicly?

Sure.

Yeah, there's those meetings you can go to. You can just sit with your camera off and just listen and see what it's like, see how people are sharing and see what's going on. Yeah, I just wanna know that that stuff's out there. I think sometimes people don't even know that it's out there. I didn't know it existed until you get into certain places and you're like, I was realizing I was just having such a tough time in relationships and a relationship with myself. It was like, it was so hard for me to get to know myself without like, I always felt like I had to just prove who I was even to me.

Mm.

Like almost every day it was like, yeah, it was like if I didn't, I had to do something to show you who I was. I couldn't just be, right? Um, I've had like that love— what's it called? Love attraction, love avoidance. What is it? Love avoidance. But what is it when you— it's like come here, go away, or whatever that thing. Not sure. It's like come here, go away. I would have whatever that shit was, bro. Sounds awful. Yeah. Oh, but it was, it was a lot of my relationships. Yeah, it was like, hey, I need you over here, or I want to be with you. But then the second somebody got close, I was like—

That's right. And then for a lot of guys, there's sexual anorexia.

What is that?

I mean, just a complete avoidance of all sex.

Oh, I thought you're starving, so you have sex or whatever.

A good hamburger. No, no.

That's how that American Pie scene came to be. Sexual anorexia is a term coined in 1975 by psychologist Nathan Hare to describe a fear or deep aversion to sexual activity. It is considered a loss compulsive appetite for sexual contact— conduct, and may result in a fear of intimacy— may result in a fear of intimacy or an aversion to any type of sexual interaction.

And the compulsive non-sex is an addiction of it itself, right? And so you just think about, like, you know, what we are striving for, right, is a version of healthy sexuality that works for you.

Yeah.

You know, so many guys get into recovery and then that's it. I've stopped these behaviors. And they can go for a while, but they're kind of unhappy and miserable. So unless you kind of lean in and challenge yourself to date, companionship, connection, healthy sex, that's what recovery is about.

Yeah.

That's how you put these behaviors in the rearview mirror and never look back. You have to replace it with something that brings you more joy and purpose.

Amen. Yeah. And a lot of times that will happen because you're, The way the program's set up, it's like you interact with more people, you say yes to more things. It's like, you know, so it's like—

And it's easier to say yes when you're not full of shame.

Oh, for sure.

When you're feeling better about yourself because you're not putting that junk in your system with consistency, you know, it just gives you your ability to show up as the best version of yourself. Kind of happens over time.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a learning process, man.

Yeah.

And the thing is, the program's always there. So if you— if something happens or something, you know what I'm saying? If you have a setback or whatever's going on, it's always there. It's there. It's unconditional. That's pretty cool.

It is great.

That's like that. Oh, here's a summary of Hal Shorey's "Come Here, Go Away: The Dynamics of Fearful Attachment." Wow. I think this is what I had.

Past tense?

Fearful attachment. Yeah, I don't think I have this anymore.

Nice.

Which is, it's kind of crazy. It's like now I feel like, I used to never think I would, dude, it's so funny. When I was a kid, this is true. And when I was even a teen and young adult, I didn't understand how people could be married. It didn't even make sense to me at a level of human affection. Like, I don't even understand. I remember I'd go watch people's families eat dinner and shit. I'd go sit and watch "Peep and Tom" or whatever, right?

Yeah.

'Cause it was like a, before I didn't even understand it.

Well, what was modeled to you in your childhood home? Now you understand it.

Nothing.

There it is.

I mean, nothing. In fact, the opposite. So like—

The opposite of nothing.

Yes.

Less than nothing.

Less than nothing, dude. Some weird integer. But dude, I can't— but at the time I didn't even know what I was— I didn't even know what I was doing. But I was just so like, it was like, it was like watching somebody to find something, I don't know, see something foreign. And then, and then slowly over time it made sense to me. And then there was like times where I was like, I remember the first time that I thought I wanted to have a family. Bro, it blew my mind. I'd never felt that in my life. You know?

I cannot wait till you get married and have a kid.

Yeah, we gotta get it out there, boy.

I cannot wait. You're gonna just— hey, you're gonna be— you have a heart as big as any person I know.

Thanks, bro.

And the more that you get comfortable showing that side of you to a woman and build a life right now with that person, my goodness, gonna be incredible to be part of.

Yeah, we have to get a camper, dude. We have to hit the road. That's it. Yeah, take that love on the road, brother. But no, I feel you, man. Thank you, bro.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, my first instinct is kind of joke sometimes when things get serious or something. And I used to be that way all the time. Now I'm not that way. There's times where I can be in some of those spaces. But dude, I remember the first time I thought, man, I would like that.

Yeah.

It blew my mind. But it's all because of just things I've learned in meetings over time, things that there's a different way, right? Yeah. What would you say to somebody out there who's thinking, I think this is me, right? We're talking about porn addiction or some of this intimacy stuff. Yeah. What can they do to start getting some help?

Yeah, there are lots of great resources out there.

And we'll put Valor too.

Valor Recovery is a great resource out there. Happy to talk to anybody listening here to see if there's a way we can help you. Happy to refer you to other programs as well if you need a higher level level of care, right? There are great therapists out there. There's great 12-step communities out there. I think anybody that's listening to this, the one thing I hope is that you have the courage to reach out and ask for help.

Amen, bro.

That's it, dude. And I want to say this, I want to say thank you. There was like, I have received messages from so many guys that said, I called and I talked to Steve. I like, he had, he A lot of places that's not the thing. No, I promise you.

So thank you early on. I promise you, I made a promise to you that I was gonna handle your people that called me, your podcast myself personally. Yeah.

And I did.

I appreciate that.

I did. It was important and it was rewarding. I learned so much about how these men are hurting and struggling. And I also learned so much on how important your voice is. In these men's lives. And so keep doing what you're doing, brother.

Well, thanks, man. Yeah, yeah. We're just learning as we go, you know, and we don't have to do it alone.

No.

So I haven't had to do it alone with this show. This show helped me not be alone. This show gave me something to do. Like, you know, there were times I probably would've been using or doing things that I, you know, like there's times it hasn't saved me from that, but there's been so many times where it has. —where it gave me some sense of value or purpose. Yeah.

Even sometimes— Your voice matters, man.

And sometimes not even my voice, just listening, just being somebody. I learned that sometimes. Sometimes I still make mistakes on it, but let me just listen so other people can listen.

Yeah, beautiful.

And I don't mean that in any egotistical way. I just feel like it's just been like, Yeah, I think when I was little, I just wanted to have a voice. I wanted, yeah, I was just, I think when I was really young, I was in so much pain and just nobody could hear me. And I didn't even know what was wrong. I just knew that it hurt. And then yeah, you get to, and that's all I wanted. And God helped me have that. That, you know? And so it's been like—

It's not by accident you're here.

Yeah.

We all have this belief, like, some reason, like, going— it should have looked differently. It should be different than it was. And the truth is, it all happened exactly the way it had to happen to be here right now. Right? I look back at my history and be like, oh, my God, that should have looked— all the money that I wasted on drugs or crazy behaviors. Well, if I If I had $1 more, maybe I would've bought that line of coke that had fentanyl. If I had $1 more, perhaps I don't meet my wife, have my son, or start Valor Recovery. So who am I to go back and say that should have looked differently?

Mm.

Everything I went through, I had to go through to be here right now. The only way to put purpose to your pain is to have lived through that pain. I think that's what you just shared.

Thanks, man. Yeah, amen. I'm glad you did, bro. I'm glad you stayed the course. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I really am, man. I super am. Mike Tyson said that same thing, man, when I talked to him. He just said, man, I wouldn't trade any of it.

As painful as parts of it were, as disgraceful as parts of it were, you know, I had to go through all of it to be the man I am today.

Yeah, it's kind of crazy.

I mean, it's—

yeah, I mean, it's unbelievable, really. It's kind of crazy.

Yes, it's kind of crazy. You had to go through everything you— I know a lot about your childhood. I know a lot about your life. Right. It prepared you for this moment. So it's crazy to go back and think, oh, it should have looked differently.

That's a good point, huh? Wow. I think sometimes it's tough to— yeah, you're so right. And sometimes I still will think that. I don't know if I still will think that, but I still will suffer some of like, there's still like some old pain that flares up.

Me too. Me too.

And people sometimes will be like, you have to get over, you have to get rid of that. And it's like, you can, but sometimes it's still a real thing. It's like just because you forgive and you move on doesn't mean that there's sometimes still not some shit that hurts.

That's right. And both things can be true. You could be living a good life and still be hurting at times from your past. Yeah. It's not either or, it's yes and.

Yeah, I agree with you, man.

There's this idea in recovery that, you know, everything is rainbows and unicorns.

Yeah.

That's not life. That's not life.

Yeah.

Right? Part of life is discomfort. Part of life is being uncomfortable.

Yeah, and I wish they kind of would've told us that.

Would you have joined if that was the sell pitch?

That's a good point though. If they would've told us, it's such a—

Here's the dude. You're not really going to feel that much better about yourself, but come on in, try this. I'm not sure that's a good selling point.

Yeah, dude, they just show you your future and it's just you, like, you're just crying behind a Winn-Dixie in your truck.

Gee, you got to do a better way of selling me on this recovery thing than that.

Dude, it's so true, bro. We had some calls, man. These are calls. We have a hotline here, 985-664-9503. That's a hotline. We're coming up on 10 years, I think, we've had this podcast. When did this podcast start?

December.

Of 2016?

Yeah. Wow.

Incredible. That's crazy, man.

Incredible. In your place in LA?

Yeah.

Incredible.

In my kitchen over there in Westwood. Kitchen in Westwood. We put those curtains up. Shout out to my ex-girlfriend Megan who would put up with me and when I would, you know, it'd be like our one night of the week to spend together and I would, I would spend it doing this.

Yeah.

And then get in a bed, just, you know.

She was such a nice person.

I know, she's the best.

Yeah.

She's the best. Let's play a couple calls that have come in on the hotline. And this may sound weird because it's like we're one of those call-in shows where we're experts. We're not experts. We don't know anything. We're just two guys who are surviving. And doing our best. Steve's doing better than me, but let's play some of those calls if we can, please. Steve, if you'll sit here.

Sure.

Thanks, man.

Hey, Theo, this is Siege from New Mexico, and I just want to tell you, man, you've been a great help. And I'm not gonna lie, I'm kind of drunk right now. It's like 12, you know, it's afternoon, about 1:10 or whatever. But I just wanna seek your advice on some shit. Uh, you know, I've been addicted to porn and masturbation my entire life, and that led me to being addicted to alcohol.

Mm.

In a way to cope, maybe. I don't know. But, uh, you know, I was texting these Filipino ladies on some bullshit app, and, uh, it turned into me sending them money. And they sent me nudes, and then it turns out it was all a scam. Obviously I should have known that, and I did know it before I even went into it, but, uh, I don't even know if I'm addicted. I've been on a 7-month bender. I think I've only missed 4 days of drinking alcohol within the last 7 months.

Hey, Siege, thanks for the call, man. Um, yeah, I would just appreciate you sharing so honestly. Um, Steve, what do you think is like, can addictions jump from one to the next? What have you noticed about that? That's kind of the thing that I'm taking away from just listening to this. And thank you, Siege, bro. And just thanks for being honest. And I think I'm gonna let Steve kind of share some of his insights here.

You see that with frequency, just the relationship between alcohol and drugs and compulsive porn use. And so making recovery difficult, you know, that was the case for me, but I had history of porn abuse, but also challenges with cocaine and alcohol and hard, really hard.

Yeah, 'cause it'll be one, one can cause the other.

Chicken or the egg.

Yeah.

Chicken or the egg. And how many guys kind of, because they're hungover, turn to porn to try to feel better? How many guys kind of make a bad decision like he did, reaching out, giving money to this scam because he's under the influence of alcohol or drugs? It's just really hard. And one of the things that he highlighted, these scams, how often we hear guys kind of being blackmailed because they got caught up reaching out to people. There's photos, there's information. It's dark stuff. It's really dark stuff. So sounds like this person can really benefit getting help. And here's the truth. Sometimes it's hard to address all this at once.

Right.

And so maybe you pick one and maybe you start with alcohol and say, okay, I'm having some issues with alcohol. What can I do to get help? I mean, I'm a huge fan, as are you, Alcoholics Anonymous. Great resource right there. Oftentimes you see guys kind of porn use spike in early recovery coming off alcohol because it's just a way to numb.

Oh yeah, I've had issues where it's like I don't want to, uh, engage in certain behaviors, so I'll even masturbate to keep myself away from those behaviors. It's like sometimes you're, you know, you're cutting off a chicken to save the horse or whatever it's called.

I like to think of it as harm reduction.

Yeah, harm reduction. That's what I'm saying.

Nothing wrong with that. Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. Especially, you know, oftentimes even with sexual recovery, sometimes you get sober off more detrimental behaviors first. You know, if a guy has issues with— a married guy and you're dealing with things that might end the marriage, infidelity, strip clubs, or a host of those behaviors, you know, getting sober off those first can be critically important. And then over time, exploring your relationship with porn and masturbation. Oftentimes porn and masturbation can be a harm reduction tool not to engage in more harmful behaviors.

Yeah. Yeah, and it's all a process. And the good thing is, even if you just go to AA, bro, you go to a 12-step, you start learning about this, you start getting into the world of it, you know? Or if you go to like a SLAA Zoom, or if you call and talk to someone that works over at Valor, it's like, you know, you just start to get into the world of realizing that there's some hope for whatever's going on.

Well, this guy, you're not alone.

Yeah, that's how I felt. You're not alone, man.

You're not alone. I mean, looking at two guys right here, you're not alone.

You're not.

I know, man. You're not alone. And anything is possible.

That's right.

You know, anything is still possible, man.

But I'm gonna quote one line that I hear you say, you say all the time, "Nothing changes." If nothing changes. Nothing changes.

Yeah. And guess what? I learned that in the rooms.

That's right. So whatever, do something. Don't do nothing.

Yeah.

I can guarantee the one way nothing will improve is doing nothing.

Yeah, that's for sure.

I mean, this ain't rocket science.

Oh dude, I've walked into some meeting rooms and be 5, like, and then 10 years later walked in again.

That's right.

Walked in and said, man, I think I need this, but I'm not sure. 10 years later I'm back. 5 years later I'm back. You hear that all the time of guys like, I knew 15 years ago there was something I knew there was something wrong, but I didn't step all the way in.

That's okay.

Yeah, it's okay.

Here now.

It takes what it takes. That's what they say too.

That's right.

It takes what it takes. Let's take another call. Thank you, Siege, bro.

Hey, Theo, this is Ashley. I just wanted to call, I guess, and get some advice about my relationship. My boyfriend of almost 2 years now, um, struggles a lot with lust and not—

Lust.

Being able to control himself when it comes to looking at porn or OnlyFans and things like that, and I love him so much. And I just wanted to get your advice on if you think men can change.

That's a nice, that's thoughtful of her to call.

What came up for you when you heard that?

Just, I thought it was nice how much she cares that she chose to call out. First of all, I believe her. Sometimes you get a lot of calls, you say, I don't know if this person's realistic or not,, but I just, to me, I felt like she was genuine about it. And it was kind of, and can people change? She didn't really make it about her.

Mm-hmm.

And she said about lust, like she understands the bigger picture of it. So it's obvious that she's put some attention towards it to maybe even look, go search and look online, see some ideas or read up on it or something. 'Cause it's not just like, hey, this guy's watching porn. It's like he has a problem with lust. And it's fascinating to think about lust. What do you think? Like, when she says that, like, what do you kind of think, Steve? Like, what is that about? Like—

Well, first thing I felt was she was sharing— I felt the first thing I felt was a little sadness.

Oh yeah, I did feel some sadness for her. I know she's going through a tough time.

Tough.

And thank you, Ashley, for calling. Sorry, I should, I should have said that first.

Thinking about her boyfriend, uh, the behaviors that she actually knows that he's engaging in, um, are leading him down just a dark path. And so first thing I was thinking about is, wow, I hope she has the ability to take care of herself.

Mm.

Oftentimes we focus so much on trying to get the significant other some help, which is important, directing him to really good resources out there. If he wants to get better, does he recognize this as a problem? And if he does, you know, get him some help there. Because guys can get better, and your relationship can thrive at some point in time in the future as he does the work. And hopefully you guys get to do the work together and grow closer together. Doesn't always work that way. But there are some countless amazing stories where couples kind of do the work and their relationship gets better than it ever was before.

Mm. That's the truth.

That's the truth. That's the truth. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way. But as she was sharing, I just hope she's got a place to go, a person to talk to, perhaps a therapist that she can just share, find ways to take care of herself in the process right now.

Yeah.

And she stays on this journey.

Yeah. And you know what? Sometimes it's like the first time you have a real intimate conversation with somebody. I was at a meeting the other day and my friends and I were talking and they were saying after, like, dude, we never even really talk like this. You know? And I was like, fuck, AA, like, recovery gave me the— I've been waiting my whole life to talk about something that meant something.

And it gave you the language too. Like, think about growing up where, like, the kind of man rules, right? Men don't cry. Men are tough, right? If you're sensitive, you are a fill in the blank. And so all of a sudden—

If you see a Ford Festiva, you gotta yell. Oh, fuck, damn it. Something like that.

Yeah. And so not a Mustang.

Yeah, it's not a Mustang, dude. It's not a Mustang.

And so, you know, so for so many men, right, you know, where did we learn how to be vulnerable? Where is it a safe place to be vulnerable, to be sensitive?

Yeah.

The truth of the matter is I'm a very sensitive guy. A lot of men in recovery or dealing addiction are very sensitive. I'm a very sensitive man. And for so much of my life, I tried to hide that part of me.

That's right.

Thinking it was a weakness.

Yeah.

And I used drugs, I acted out in certain ways to numb the pain of that sensitivity. I can tell you right now, my sensitivity today is a superpower.

Amen.

Because it allows me to have empathy and to feel your experiences and pain. Given where I've been with this.

Facts, dude.

Yeah, man. Facts, bro. And you have the best stories too, dude. We didn't really tell any of them today.

Thank God, because you'd probably have to filter them out. You have the best stories, dude.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we can even, we can take this out, but you have one story I remember about partying so hard in Miami that you and a friend went, instead of like, you guys bought more drugs and more diapers out on the dance floor so you didn't have to, Yeah, well, we bought dope.

It was obviously laced with a laxative, and we had a choice. We had a choice to either throw the drugs out or make these kind of makeshift diapers and keep the party going. Needless to say, you know how the rest of the story goes.

Yeah, brother. Just so you guys know, Steve is a real one. The Steve is— and that's just— that That is the tip of the Iwo Jima, dude. That's the tip of the iceberg. Steve's a real one. Oh, and what else was she was asking about? Something else though. Oh, she was asking, oh, do you— does she think it's possible for him to get better, right? Did you— did we answer all that?

I am such a believer in the power of recovery.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, no doubt. This whole episode I think could help, could maybe be beneficial to him if you want to share with him. You can tell him, just say, hey, Matthew wanted you to listen to this if you want. I don't know if I know him or not or if I've ever met him. You meet a lot of people, but so yeah, just say, hey man. Hey, this is something your girlfriend wanted you to listen to. I've had issues with it. So if you feel okay listening to it, then check it out. So you can send him that little clip right there and that can go along with this episode if you want. And then, oh, lust. She talked about lust. Lust kind of gets hijacked or something, doesn't it? We don't talk about lust too much, do we?

Yeah, you know—

Does it matter? Is it just a word?

It's just a word. But I'll tell you what's interesting. How many guys come to me like, "Steve, you don't understand. I think I'm just so horny." Maybe. But what's probably closer to the truth is, you're actually just really uncomfortable and you've sexualized that discomfort.

Oh yeah. Every time you get uncomfortable, you end up jerking off or looking at pornography. Then when you get uncomfortable, you're like, oh, I'm horny. It's like, no, you're not.

That's right. You connect the two in your brain. And so, you know, and what happens when guys get into recovery and get some time, you know, they stabilize and they realize that they're not as horny as they think.

Yeah.

Because you're no longer using it as a tool to deal with your emotions.

Right. Dude, they hijacked us, bro. The devil hijacked a lot of us, bro. You gotta give props to the devil in a weird way because—

Check on this one. They, they just, you know.

Yeah, they win this round.

Yeah, well, they won this round. They won this round. They won this round.

Hey, what's going on, Theo? Oh, my name is Donald. Oh, so I have a situation. My, I have a girlfriend. Long distance type shit. Yeah. We've been together for 3 years, but for the first year and a half, I would just, I would just, you know, lay that semen around type shit. Yeah. I was a big infidel, just cheat on her nonstop. I told her a couple times, you know, that made me feel a bit proud of myself, but But yeah, lately, you know, it's been a while and I've just been jerking off, to be honest. Um, just been jerking off a couple times a day, honestly.

Hmm.

So, not really sure what your thoughts are on that. I mean, it's better than cheating, but, you know, I'm struggling out here. Uh. Yeah, I've been watching mom porn. Um, that thing. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, dude, I think we've kind of— we've talked about some of this. Thanks for calling, bro. Donovan or Jonathan? Um, Donald. Donald. Okay, thanks for calling, Donald. I didn't know people saw the name Donald, but I'm glad they do. I'm glad they do, bro. And bring it back, BYOD, bro. What I'm saying is this, dude, is, um, yeah, sorry, this whole— this, this whole segment to me just— it feels like it's very foreign. It feels like like, here's the energy I don't like, and this isn't the real energy of it, that we know something you don't, right? Like, we're just two guys who fucking trying our best here. Um, but we have shown up a lot to places to try our best, so I'll give us a lot of credit with that. And Steve has done a great job of like transforming his whole life. Um, yeah, dude, I just know if you do that, it just weakens the spirit. So something's uncomfortable in Something's uncomfortable in your spirit.

Mm-hmm.

Right? And you're only gonna get clues from it probably if you stop masturbating and stuff, you'll start to get some clues. But the tough part is, and this has been tough for me, the clues get scary and sometimes it's hard to handle. You don't know something's, ah, you know? Sometimes you just wanna scream and sometimes it's like primal stuff. You don't know what's going on. And so you just, you sedate yourself with like pornography or masturbations to keep yourself at bay. But it can be different, right, Steve?

Yeah, what I took from the call was this kind of idea, like, you can't really do this alone.

Yeah, 'cause this dude sounds like he's pretty capable of getting stuff done.

That's right. He's insightful, he's honest, but he's running the show.

Right.

And so, you know, I would strongly suggest to get some help. You know, willpower will only get you so far.

Yeah.

Right?

Getting some time to understand what's driving you, driving these behaviors.

Get to the root cause of some of these challenges. Get some professional help. Great resources out there. Get involved in the community, a men's group where you can kind of have some— a band of brothers where you can kind of run stuff by and talk through these things. Tough to do this by yourself.

Yeah.

What happens is it'll be 10 years from now and you'll still be struggling with this stuff and you'll just lose time.

That's— bro, that is the truest thing If you relate to some of this stuff, if you relate to it at a pretty strong level where you like, I think I had it, it does not just go away.

No.

I cannot— there's nothing that's been— that's the most honest thing I could ever tell you in my whole life. It does not just go away.

When I started this process, I had a head of hair like you, and now look at this thing right now. Yeah, you just lose time, you lose hair.

You look great, man. And bro, you've done a great job today too, dude.

Yeah, thank you. It's been a pleasure being here.

Thank you, bro. Thank you so much just for being here, for talking about this, man. Some stuff, it's like, I don't know, I just have been so much more comfortable than I thought it would be. And I don't even know why I didn't think it would be, you know? Um, all right, let's see. Let's have one more call that came in, please.

Hey, Theo, this is, uh, Cody from Florida. And, uh, I, I seen you're really big on porn addictions, and that's kind of a weird topic to get personal about, if you know what I mean. Very awkward topic. But I feel like, I feel like I just lost the love of my life because of it. I, I can't control myself. I, I can't I feel like because of my generation, because I'm 19, man, I'm— Mm-hmm. I just, I feel like it's so normalized. It's so routine. It's so normal for me to feel normalized about doing this shit. And I just lost the best thing that's ever happened to me. She broke up with me, man.

This is a fucking— this is a Gooner national anthem right here.

She left me and I can't believe it, bro. Can't stop thinking about her. I can't stop dreaming about her. I can't— I can't get past the memories that we had because of my actions. My actions— my actions made me lose it, bro. And I just— I just wanted to see if I could get some advice from you.

Yeah, dude, thanks for calling in about it, bro. And, uh, yeah, sorry, I was kind of joking around, dude, but it's real. And if you really have this porn addiction, if you've related to it enough, you kind of call, you heard it and thought about it and called, then it must have some relative, there must be something inside of you that's connecting with it, right? If you've even just heard me talk about it before, 'cause today's the most we ever even talked about it ever. So if you're picking up on something from before, it tells me something. Yeah.— it won't get better. You have to, you have to, you got to help it get better, right? So you got to show up for it and help it get better, and it will get better. And as far as, yeah, you might have lost your girl, this situation for now, but you— I, I believe you get second chances, and I believe that you won't miss out on the next good one, and you will be so grateful down the line that, uh, you started to solve the— solve some of the issues, uh, now than waited.

That's what I think, man, from my own experience. Steve, what do you think?

I think everywhere I go, there I am. Meaning that—

Yeah, yeah.

You know, that's just the reality. If I could date that woman without me, probably be a great experience, but I bring me to that relationship. So I think pain is the cornerstone of spiritual growth. And what happened happened. Sounds like awful, tragic, horrible. But I'll tell you what, what would be really tragic if you didn't use this moment in time to get the help you need. Leverage the pain you're in right now to get the help you need. Really important, right? The gift of desperation. Don't let this go by and pass and be like, oh, maybe it wasn't that bad. Use the pain you're in as leverage to get help.

Amen. That's the truth, bro. That's, dude, that's cool, dude. Yeah. Yeah, bro. The gift of desperation.

We both lived it.

But yeah, thanks Cody for calling in. Did we get those 3 guys, guys, by chance? If we have accurate shot of them. Here we go right here. These are the Ethical Capital Partners. This couple of guys right here. There's the managing partner, Fadi Mansour. Rocco Meliambro, and he's definitely been gooning. And Solomon Friedman, had a feeling he was involved. There he is right there, he's the partner VP compliance. I love how compliance is part of it.

I mean, what do you do working at a porn company for compliance? I'm curious.

I don't know, dude. I do not know. They're— that's them right there, Ethical Capital Partners. So we want to thank those guys for, um, being— basically, they are, uh, those your porn Sackler family right there. That's what I alleged. That's what I call them. That's just my thoughts. Those are the Sacklers of pornography right there. Those good people: Fadi Mansour, Rocco Meliambro, and Solomon Friedman. Thank you guys for your service. Steve Walt, man, thank you for your service, dude. Today's a service call. That's what they say in recovery rooms. If you make a service call on people, you do something to be helpful to the group or to someone.

What a treat to be here. Thank you.

Dude, what a long journey, huh?

Yeah. It's only just started.

That's the craziest part, bro. And that's the best attitude to have. Congratulations, man, on starting a family. I'm making something real outta something that was just like, do you look back sometimes and you're like, I cannot even believe it?

I really do. And I just talked to my wife last night in anticipation of this. And I was like, ah, I can't believe I'm here. Really unfathomable. And how'd I get here? Just one day at a time, one step at a time, taking better, making better decisions.

—Yeah. Anybody can do it, huh?

100%.

You believe that?

I really do.

Yeah. Doesn't matter if you have money or don't money, if you're in a wheelchair, if you can't see far, it doesn't matter.

No. Anybody can do it as long as you don't quit before the miracle happens.

Amen. Steve Wilbra, I love you, bro. Thank you for being a part of my life, bro. Thank you for letting me be a part of your life. You showed up for my comedy show when I came out to Bend, Oregon. We had so much fun.

That was awesome.

That was cool, dude. Awesome. And you've just been such a light over the years, dude. We know so many friends. Most of the most important people in my life, you know them. That's right.

Best friends in the world that have friends in recovery.

Oh, dude, nothing better.

No. Amazing human beings. Crazy as can be. They could be decades sober, off their rockers.

Incredible and beautiful. Yeah. Oh, the good times do not end, bro.

No, they don't. You finally—

you always want to know who's got the best story in the room, dude. You finally get to meet all of those people.

That's right. That's right. It's good stuff.

Steve, Valor Recovery. You guys can check out his program if anything you feel like you can relate to. Steve, I love you, bro.

Thank you, bro. Thank you.

Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this peace of mind I found. I can feel it in my bones, but it's gonna take a little—