Transcript of The Global War on Christianity Just Got a Whole Lot Worse, and Ted Cruz Doesn’t Care

Thanks so much for doing this. Armeniaia is famous to the extent it's famous. Armeniaians are famous for being successful in business and quite cohesive as a community and very sincerely Christian-observant, but probably they're most famous for being exterminated by the Ottoman turks at the end of the First World War, the Romanian genocide. I think most people don't fully appreciate the extent to which that was religious persecution. That was a religious genocide, and they were murdered because they were Christians. Tell us how we know that. Yeah.

The at the end of the rule of Ottoman Empire, after Balkan Wars, Ottoman turks saw that some Balkan countries, like Bulgari and part of Greece, became independent, and the Christian countries in Balkans became independent. After that, they filled some big risk in Christian population of Ottoman Empire, like Armenia, Pontus Greeks, became independent. They started to persec the Christian population of Ottoman Empire or to convert them to Islam. How it went on. When the war started between Antanta and Ottoman Empire, the Germany and Austro-Hungaria, Hungary, the Ottoman army came to all villages of Armenians in Ottoman Empire and ask two questions, just the villagers or the people who lived in towns. The first question was, will you convert to Islam? Like 90 8% of the population, Romanian population of Ottoman Empire, denied.

Said no.

Said no. The second question is, if you don't convert to Islam, you will go from here to desert of Deir Zor. It's like 800 kilometers, the 600 kilometers from Romanian Highlands. All the men were killed and all the women were taken with children to desert of the Azor, and we have lost the 70% of the population of our nation because everyone, one and a half million people, said no to converting to another religion. We want everyone to know about this story, not just about the dark side of the history. It has a bright message, too, that Christians in the 20th century were very... They went in a way of Christ and they were sacrificed. We hope all this sacrificial will bring the Christians of our days to more faith to what we have, the biggest and most humanistic religion that we accept and we must live with it.

I did not understand until we just had breakfast that the victims of the Romanian genocide, who've been talked about a lot, there's been a debate in the Congress for many years whether we can call it a genocide, whether somehow trademarked, but it was a genocide. But I didn't understand that they were Christian martyrs. They died not because of their ethnicity, but because of their religious faith.

There were no any problem with ethnicity. There were Armen, like 2% of Armenians in Ottoman Empire were Muslim. Just these 2% are living till now in the north of Ottoman Empire without any trouble. Interesting. The other 98%, every Christian, Arminian, who were asked this question, who answered that he will not convert to Islam, were killed.

That's amazing. That defines 20th century, 21st century country, Romanian culture. We stood steadfast in our faith and were murdered for it. So Christianity is at the center of Romanian culture.

Is that fair to say? It's the first nation who has ever converted to Christian in 301 was an Romanian kingdom. So in 301-Before Constantine, before the Roman Empire. Eleven years before Constantine, before Medialan edict, it was 2012, I guess, Armenia, like 11 years before, Armenia king, Thirdat, the third, converted to Christian religion and convert all our population Christian religion. And we are the oldest Christian nation in the world. That's why our church and our identity are so already it's the same thing. The 80 % or 70 % of our identity comes from Christian values and values of our church.

That's fascinating. I mean, the state of California, where I'm originally from, the Romanian community is extremely successful, but very cohesive. They have a sense of themselves in a great way, I think. And that's why, obviously. Over the past 30 years, Armenia has been involved in a number of conflicts, really a long-running sporadic war with Azerbaijan, which is an Islamic country. How many Armen were killed in that war?

Almost 20,000 people were killed for defending a Christian population of Nagorna, Karabakh. At the end of the war, the last war, the Christian population of Nagorna, Karabakh exceded. Everyone came to Armenia. Now, after 2,000 years of living in this region, there is no any Christian in region of Nagorna, Karabakh.

There are none?

There is no any.

What I don't understand is why nobody said anything as that was going on and why Christian leaders in the West didn't say anything while that was going on that I heard?

I think it's a matter of real politics. Real politics. We have allies with We have a very close relationship with Greek nation, with Greece. We have close relationship with Cyprus. But even from there, we felt that we had support, but the support was just with words, not any actions. I know that real politics and the help of Turkey to Azerbaijan make the many countries that were allies with us or were in a good relationship with us to avoid being part of-Yes, they didn't want to get crossways with powerful countries like Turkey.

Powerful countries.

I understand that. This is what we have. This is the problem we face all over our history because the Romanian nation is in the center of a region where like Turkey, Azerbaijan, Iran, and the only religious There is only Christian nation from these three countries. And always we had this oppression from the empires like Ottoman Empire, there is Kajar Empire, and other empires. And The only thing made us to be united and to save our culture was the church and education from the church. The schools that church was built all over the country to educate us, to be Christian, and to be an Romanian Christian.

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The participation, Israel was the support of Azerbaijan by weapon, and it was a part of real politics. But you know the problem?

What weapons?

Drones, like aircraft, aircraft and other. It's not just defense and attack.

But offensive weapons.

Offensive weapons.

That's what Azerbaijan receive from Israel?

And the drones many of drones and many of the were operated by, as we have read in media, by operators from these companies of Israeli companies.

Wow. So you think there were Israeli drone operators?

Yeah, because as many media told, it was in many magazines.

That would mean that Israelis were killing Christians in this war with US tax dollars. Because the Israeli defense sector is supported billions and billions a year by the United States.

You know the issue is about the real politics. They are getting gas from Azerbaijan. Gasoline. Gasoline. They buy gasoline. I think the 70% of Israel Gasolin is coming from Azerbaijan, and they have some type of economic ally. They are allies economically. The main issue is today, real politics sometimes is make a big problem for the nations who wants to defend themselves alone. In the regions, we are minority.

Yeah, I mean, Of course. And that's how the world works. I just suppose from an American perspective, it's like, why are my tax dollars being used to murder Christians around the world? Cleanse the Christians from Iraq, cleanse the Christians from Nogorna Karabakh, murder Romanian Christians. Why am I paying for this?

It is a problem.

It is a problem. Problem for me. Now you have a lull in the fighting with Azerbaijan, but you have a Prime Minister of Armenia who seems to be intent on destroying traditional Christianity or the church. Tell me what this is. Yeah.

After last two, three years, after losing the war in Nagorna, Karabakh, and after making all the people, Christians from Nagorna, Karabakh, have moved to Armenia, our new Prime Minister decides to have a better relationship with Azerbaijan, better relationship with everyone is always welcome by Armenia society. We are okay with this. But what we feel, we feel that Turkey or Azerbaijan had a mission made him to change the narratives of the Church, and he wants to change the narrative of the church to forget the issue of genocide, forget our history. Our Prime Minister, six months ago, he started attack our Minian Church and head of our Minian Church. He wants to detrown him, and he wants to detrown and to change the structure of Romanian Church that is like 1,700 years old because of taking control of the church. It's the main institution in our country, like 90%, 95% of our population are the members of Romanian Apostolic Church. When he started to attack against the church, our society was shocked because nobody have done it before him, even just at Ottoman time. Many people in Armeniaian society, they were against them, against it, but they couldn't say anything.

Why?

Because they were afraid of some oppression from government side. Armenia is a democratic country. I think it's one of the last democratic countries in this region. In the last 30 years, we have elections, we have new leaders. It's not an authoritarian country. But this Prime Minister is evolved from democratic leader. Every year, we see he's changing to more authoritarian style of ruling because of decreasing of his reputation in Armenia. Now, he attacked the church. He took to prison three archbishops.

He put archbishops in prison?

Yeah, archbishops. For For you to understand, it's not shock. Why? The one of archbishops, which took to prison because four years ago in an interview, he said that this Prime Minister must be changed. The second Archbishop was in prison, was taken to prison because of three years ago or five years ago, he went into a protest against the Prime Minister. Nobody But from influential part of Armenia society, everyone were afraid to talk about this. Everyone could talk who hadn't a business, who hadn't an influence. But influential part, didn't want to do it. The one man who started to talk about this was my uncle, Samuel Karapitian. He is one of the wealthiest Armeniaian in the world, and biggest Romanian philanthropist of last 15 years. Fifteen years, he is the biggest philanthropist in Armenia. So very many hospitals, kindergarten, schools. When he came to Armenia, he lives out of Armenia. He came to Armenia and at the 40 days of his father's grave. We have a tradition to go to church at liturgy in 40 days of someone's grave.

Good for you. When someone dies, an Armenia dies, the family mourns for 40 days.

Yeah, and goes to liturgy. When he came to Armenia and he was in liturgy after liturgy, after mass in the church, the journalist came to him and say, What do you think about the attacks from the side of government, attacks against the church? And he said, It was 37 seconds. What can I think if a small group of people, forgetting our Minian history, forgetting history of our church, is attacking our Minian church is attacking Romanian church and our Minian people? If the politician will not handle the situation, we will take part of handling it by ourself, our way.

Good.

It was 37 seconds. Do you know what's going on after it?

What happened?

After 30 minutes of this interview, our Prime Minister posted in Facebook that this philanthropist must shut his mouth. After three hours, he sent police special forces to a residence of Samuel Karapitian, who is the most famous philanthropist of the country. Everyone was shocked. We were shocked, too. These police forces came to his residence without a judge order. Armenia is a democratic country. We never saw something like this. Everything was going on. Cameras showed everything. Everyone knows that he said it 37 seconds, then the Prime Minister was in parliament. He posted something like this in Facebook. Policemen came to the residence of Samuel Karapitian. But what happened then? The demonstrators came to the residence of Samuel to defend him. Thousands of people came to his house to defend him from police. That day, usually when police come, it's five minutes to take someone to police station. It was 14 hours. Demonstrators didn't want to let him to go to police station, and they were Bring order of judge. We'll let. The demonstrators told the policeman. Then he decided to go himself to police station to not cause a clash between policemen and demonstrators. After that, he was arrested, and I was arrested, too.

My father, his brother, was arrested, too.

What were you arrested for?

I don't know.

Just being his nephew?

Just being there, I don't know. I remember we were in police station, 8: 00, and they were looking for an article to charge because there is no article in 37 seconds. I I remember, investigator came to the room and say, Oh, I found one article, and then the other said, No, it doesn't work. After 7: 00, they phoned an article and charged it that he said that the prime minister must be detrown. But in this 37 second interview, you can watch it in YouTube. It's everyone can do it. There were no any word about non-prime minister and no anything. And he is now in jail. Still? They took him to jail five months. And the jail name, do you know what is the jail name? No. Kgb basement. So that old Soviet time, Communist time, prison, where the communists send the people who were not agree with communists ideas. He's there in 12 square meters for defending the church and for this 37 second.

He's still in jail.

He's still in jail.

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It's very unpopular. Like, 90% of the population is against that. Population, our society doesn't understand why he's doing that.

His agenda... Armenia is a traditional country. Traditional families predominate. I noticed that the Prime Minister's wife was interviewed and said something to the effect that women in traditional families are all unhappy.

Yeah. He wants to change the society, but with power, not with soft power.

But the way he wants to change the society is very familiar to Americans. He is focusing on transgenderism is a good thing, LGBTQ agenda, whatever that is.

Anti-traditionalism, so not to traditional families. You mustn't care about your son. He must decide what to do. But if you want to-What to do?

Whether to become a woman or have sex with a man or whatever.

No, he hadn't said something like this, but mostly he's against the traditional values. So everyone knows that he has idea of changing our society, but with-To make it less Christian. To make it less Christian Yeah, I guess, yes.

Who's supporting him in this? This has happened in every country in the West, almost every country in the West, with varying degrees of success. But who's behind that?

Who's pushing this? Who is behind that in every country in the West?

Yeah, that's a good question.

Is the same people who is doing it in Romania, they are doing it here, too, I guess.

They've been extremely successful. I mean, they've destroyed our social fabric with this. But who are those people? Let's just stick with Armenia. Who's supporting this Prime Minister? The population doesn't support him.

Who is? I think the main issue when we thought why he is doing it against the church, we think that he gets some information from Turkey and Azerbaijan that you must change the narrative of the church to forget the genocide and to have a new head of church for going to a peace deal between Armenia and Azerbaijan and Azerbaijan. We feel that he wants to change the head of church. Then he will change the narrative of the church and to make our people to forget all our ancestors have done for our Christian religion and for being an Erminian. This is the thing that we must show our societies that this is the way they work. They want to destroy all the historical truth for some reasons. The reason is to be in peace, but we are very welcome to be in peace. But these people, one and a half million people, were killed already. They were killed for their religion. The Ottoman Empire must accept it. The Ottoman turks or turks must accept it because After that, we will live in a more peaceful region.

Anyone who's forcing you to lie about history is your enemy. And of course, the purpose is always to maintain power. Whoever controls the story, the past, controls the future, of course. That's why Wikipedia exists, to lie to us about the past. Last question. I mean, by any definition, a grotesque human rights violation, you're arresting Christian clergy because you don't like their theological views and you don't like their views of history, so you throw them in prison. How many Christian churches in the West have weighed in on this, have supported the clergy under arrest, have put pressure on the Romanian Prime Minister to stop arresting Christian clergy? How much support are you getting from the West?

We are getting support from the West, from the churches. You are? Yeah. There is a huge support, and we are appreciative for this. I want to tell you one more thing. Why these people are brave when they are going against the government's ideas. My uncle, Samuel Karabitian, and the clergy, they could be realized tomorrow if they say that they will not defend the church.

It's always the same story, isn't it? Yeah.

My uncle, they wanted to confiscate his businesses in Armenia. He knows it, but he wants to defend the church after that, too. So he's continuing to defend the church. This is the idea. These are the persons with whom I think we must learn something because It's like in 20th century when this Arminian, our ancestors, were sacrificed in Ottoman Empire for their religion. I am proud that Samuel Karabitian, he can be free, he can be with his business, but he doesn't do this for his religion because religion and faith matters. It's important. Like the first Christian in first century, they were oppressed, but they fought for their religion. This is the case Samuel Carapitian faces now.

It's inspiring to watch. It's upsetting to watch at the same time. Godspeed. Thank you for telling us that story. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Too few people know, and it's not just about Armenia, of course. It's a global push against this one specific religion, against Jesus. That's what they hate.

Thank you very much.

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Visit cozyearth. Com. Use the code Tucker and give gifts that people actually love. If you get a post-purchase survey, don't forget to mention you heard about them from this show. Bob Amsterdam, as always, one of the people that I talk to most off camera about what is happening to the Christian population of the world. It's amazing. Thank you for doing this. The situation in Armenia, the government of Armenia, persecuting the church, how is this happening without more international comment.

Look, Tucker, as you and I have discussed, I do not understand the evangelical movement, the Christian movement in the United States. One thing I want to say, and I won't make many friends by saying it, In the United States, Christianity has been subsumed by the State Department. The US government decides what Christians we support and what Christians we don't. In Armenia, there is going to be a prayer breakfast. I want you to understand there's going to be a prayer breakfast while my client, Samuel Karapetian, is in jail. Archbishops have been jailed. Clerics have been jailed. The A leader of the country is trying to split the church by going to services of a defract priest, a man who has said he is going to remove the leader of the church. This man is being fetted by American Christians in Yerevan, Armenia, a man who calls clerks prostitutes. A man who uses language that at my advanced age, I've never heard a leader use against leaders of the church. And yet, shockingly, this prayer breakfast is going to go on, and I call it a reputation laundering breakfast. The US government allows this to go on.

What connection is there between the US State Department and the prayer breakfast?

Look, I can't exactly tell you. I'm not privy to the arrangements. But as I've seen in representing the Ukrainian Church, the prayer breakfast and religious freedom all seem to follow a script outlined by the State Department. You know, there's a lot of pressure from the administration on peace in terms of Armenia and Azerbaijan, Which, of course, all of us welcome. But it's happened at a tremendous cost to the people of Armenia. There's tremendous cultural and church relics that are being lost and defiled. There's 120,000 who have been cleansed from Azerbaijan. No thought has been given to this. We have 23 Christian hostages in Bakhu, and the Prime Minister of Armenia did not even speak of them when he was with President Trump. President Trump raised them. I mean, it is shocking how Armenia has a Prime Minister who seems to resent his own history as an Armenia. They've taken Mount Ararat off stamps. They don't talk about the genocide. They attack the church. The leader of the country wants to remove and appoint the Catholicus. Well, Of course, he doesn't understand what an apostolic church is. To be an apostolic church, listen to this Jew tell you about apostolic churches, you have to have a connection to the first Apostles, which means your election must be sanctified by bishops, by leaders of the church, not a political figure.

He is shockingly ignorant of his own religion.

It sounds like it's not his religion. I mean, it sounds like he's not a believer.

Well, I never will say that about someone. I agree. I don't know him. But what I will tell you is our State Department has lost the meaning of faith. They have instrumentalized religion as a of foreign policy, exactly what we accuse the Russians of doing. We have done it. Thank God, our people don't bless tanks the way Bishop Kierall did in Russia. But this support of governments, and we're seeing it in this prayer breakfast, traveling to a country like Armenia with top leaders of the Christian religion in particular, and doing all of this was Well, we have clerks and I have a client in jail. I feel very personal about this because I was able to defend this client in an Romanian court. I want to thank the Romanian bar for allowing me to actually speak in defense of the client directly with an interpreter. I was able to deal with the court myself, and I thought, effectively, portray the absolute farce that this trial was and that these charges were with respect to Samuel Carpetian, who is an absolutely unbelievably principled Christian who is now sitting in his fifth month in jail, innocent of everything other than praising God.

And that's why he's in jail.

I know I've asked this before, maybe not as pointily as I will now, but how did this fall to you? How did you, I think, grew up pretty liberal or left-wing Jewish guy, wind up being one of the world's foremost defenders of persecuted Christians? How did that happen?

Well, firstly, as a Jew, I am an inclusive person. If somebody has faith in God, almost any God, I respect that.

I feel the same way.

I was raised by a family that was deeply impacted by the Holocaust. I have traveled all my life. I have sought refuge during riots or whatnot, whether it be in churches or mosques. I just never feel proprietary and feel that all men of faith have a commonality to it. I've been involved with the Orthodox Church since I was a young man. We did a case against the Soviet Union, which a colleague of mine, Reg McClane, did most of the work on. But Dean Peroff and I were young lawyers together, and he was a member of the Masadona Bulgarian Orthodox Church. I took on that case 45 years ago, trying to fight a Soviet attempt at taking control of a church. Since that time, I've always had an interest in these issues. When, as you know, I was approached by the Ukrainian church and now by in the Romanian church context, it just seems very natural as a Jew to defend children of Christ.

It's just an amazing story. Thank you, by the way, for doing it. What is the latest you have been the defender of the church in Ukraine, the Orthodox Church in Ukraine, which is under almost unbelievable persecution by the government with the help of the United States? Where are we now?

I want to be very clear, Tucker. When you say persecution, that doesn't sum it up. I'm talking about I'm talking about the theft of churches. I'm talking about- This is not just we're cutting off funding.

I have pictures.

I have videos. There's a trial going on in England where the Ukrainians are trying to ship back a former member of Parliament of Ukraine, whose crime was to speak out for the church. On the day they passed this horrendous bill to ban the Ukraine Ukrainian Orthodox Church, a bill that I would say has no comparison in Europe since the Nuremberg laws. When they passed this bill to ban this church, this man had the courage to stand up in the Rada, in their parliament, to denounce it. For that, Zelensky and Yermack pulled his security, knowing that his statements would be highly controversial and perhaps deadly. He He realized that there was basically a death warrant. He fled the country on foot through a forest, made it to the UK. Within 14 days of arrival in the UK, they were trying to extradite him back to Ukraine for some hooliganism charge. Fortunate for him, I knew him. I knew when I had met him in Ukraine, when I had been there, that he had evidence of torture. We're now taking that evidence of torture to the courts. Ukraine is a one-party, one-person autocratic state that has no comparison to any democratic values.

Rather, today is a mirror of the old Soviet Union. The man in charge of religious affairs is an apparatchik who wrote an anti-Jewish screed 20 years ago. He's the head of religious affairs. And by the way- Sorry to This is so crazy. By the way, hold on. Let me go a step crazier. He was a keynote speaker at the Religious Freedom Conference held in Washington.

What?

Yes. His name is Jelenski. He was a keynote speaker. This is a man who spends his life trying to destroy the Orthodox Church and transfer it into what is essentially the OCU, a state church. He's a keynote speaker at a Religious Freedom Conference in Washington, where there is a happy hour sponsored by the Ukrainian government, where there are men in Ukrainian army uniforms walking around.

This happened in Washington, DC?

Yes, a number of times. This is all going on while I, on behalf of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, we can't get an interview in any press in the United States. Censorship exists in this country. When we got any coverage, it wasn't to cover the outrage in Ukraine, It was to taint me as some form of Russian agent, a guy who was arrested by Putin, whose friends were murdered by Putin. I am tainted as some Russian agent for speaking out against this criminalization of Christianity that's going on in Ukraine. And by the way, supported by pastors who are very close to the White House, and I don't fault them.

Wait, it's supported by American pastors? Yes.

How? They don't know. I mean, essentially, the Ukrainians are masters of disinformation, absolute masters. They have their own captive cells of religious leaders who are told, essentially, Look, we have black PR against you if you don't follow what's going on and you don't support us, we'll take you down. I mean, the former President of Ukraine is under indictment for treason. Now, Novinsky, who you've interviewed, under indictment for treason. They've done nothing treasonous. They just represent alternative areas of independent thinking. In Nowinski's case, a religious man who supported the church, but they have sanctioned him. They have tried to destroy him. Of course, they are within a hair's breadth of taking down the church, a thousand-year-old church, destroying it, taking the priests out of it, removing all the churches, transferring it to the state church of the OCU, which essentially is a cut out of the presidential administration.

It's hard. We first spoke maybe two years ago.

Yes.

I was shocked by what you said at the time, which is the government of Zelenskyy is trying to eliminate traditional Christianity, the traditional Church of Ukraine. I thought, boy, when people find out about this, because whatever you think of Zelenskyy or Putin, certainly Putin, you can hate Putin and still be appalled by this, of course. I thought, wow, it's going to stop. Once people know, but it just kept accelerating. I still haven't heard a single, I'm sure there have been, but I haven't heard any American Christian leaders say anything about this. Look, What is that?

I will tell you that J. D. Vance, when he was a senator, and no one, frankly, knew him from Oshkosh, gave a statement in the senate for which I thank him every day in prayers that has kept... I think it's one of the key things. I think you, J. D. Vance, and there are two young members of the Young Republicans, Katherine Whitford, who is a co-chair of the National Young Republicans and is Orthodox, is actually leading a day of action. She has a colleague as well who is leading this. Those young people have been, along with our vice president now, the only sources of support we've had.

What about Franklin Graham?

He is speaking in Yerevan.

What does that mean?

He is the keynote at the prayer breakfast in Yerevan, Armenia.

With the Prime Minister who's putting clergy in jail?

Yes.

How does that work?

Listen, it may surprise you to know I am not working in evangelical circles. I have no idea.

I'm not either, but I'm very sympathetic to the... To evangelical people, great people. I'm not against Franklin Graham, but I'm just shocked that Franklin Graham would-I don't know, having certainly been aware of him, I have no idea if he knows.

I think because our government has decided, as has the EU, frankly, that they are going to go with the SOB they know, I I think the silence of the government is something that everybody takes as permission. I'm sure Franklin Graham is not aware that Archbishop- Has Franklin...

I mean, you would think, and I don't mean to focus on Franklin Graham. I'm sure he's a nice person, or I don't I don't know what he's like, but I'm not against him. But has he said anything about what Zelensky is doing to the church in Ukraine that you're aware of? No.

I honestly am in shock at the silence of the media in in the United States and the silence of the Christian community to what's happened. I mean, thanks to Candy Strauch, who you and I both know. Great person. I've been on radio everywhere I can. But the Ukrainian effort in Washington and with media is masterful. They have their own people in key media who continued to write puffy articles articles about them. Never a criticism. The first time it ever came up that I saw was the protests over corruption a few weeks ago, which led people here to scratch their head and say, Well, Christ, if Zelenskyy is so clean, how could he be trying to wipe out the anti-corruption independence? And that was an eye opener to some. But in the UK, We wrote to the government to say, Why aren't you doing something about the church? They wrote back and said, Everything's great. Everything's great? Everything's great. I mean, the UK government is more hard line about Ukraine than Ukraine. The reaction of Europeans. Understand, Germany is imploding because of this war.

I know. It was obvious that it would. Four years ago, it was obvious. The second it started, this is going to destroy Germany, which is really the economy of Europe.

Let's say something else. It's going to radicalize Germany.

Well, that is deep.

That is scary.

It's coming, of course.

And as a Jew, that is a very scary thing to witness.

But it's inevitable. It's going to radicalize all of Europe. I mean, how could it not?

I will say to you that the The behavior of the press has been the most disappointing to me because I've worked with the press when I was fighting Putin in the early 2000s on behalf of one of his key opponents. I had the press with me, and We would do interviews. It was constant. But now that St. Zalinski is starting to show a few cracks in the visage, there's still nothing about this ongoing torture and use of secret police to destroy a church. Nothing.

What is that exactly? Why most Americans, including certainly most reporters, most people in the media, had never heard of Zelenskyy until this war started. They couldn't identify him. Immediately after it started, the loyalty to him blinded them to his faults, induced them to lie to the in America about what was happening. I mean, they just became shills for Zelenskyy in one day. Why? What is that?

It's interesting because we did a study. We looked at media in the United States because one of the things that's frightening about the churches that are being taken in Ukraine is that very often the people who take them and beat up parishioners and break the heads of priests, those people have swastikas on their arms.

Yeah, I noticed.

We found out that the New York Times and other papers had been profiling the rise of the right in Ukraine right up until the war. Now, the Azov Battalion, which is basically a neo-nazi battalion, has almost taken over command and control in the Ukraine. This is an ultra-nationalist government right now that is is pushing a very radical line, but no one is covering it.

But do you have any guesses as to... And I should say you've been in and out of that region for over 50 years. You know well, you know a lot. Just for I could go on about your background, but I would just ask viewers to look you up or to take my word for it. You know what you're talking about. And what you're saying is true. But why would the media, again, do Why are they defending actual Nazis? That's how deep their commitment is to Zelenski. So what is that? What is that commitment? Where does it come from?

Well, it's funny because Zelenski made all his money in Russia.

Yeah, I know.

And yet he's in charge of a government that's debasing any guarantees of language rights for Russian speakers inside Ukraine. The sanctification of him relates relates in my mind to two things. One, we have a total breakdown in elite politics in Europe and to some extent in the United States. Yes. Secondly, I stopped playing the market when I was 21, but I certainly remember making a bet and watching it crash and then think, I've I got to double down to lower my cost in. Exactly. And I think that's what's happened here.

I understand the first one, the second one. I think you're exactly right. I was all in for the beginning, I can't get out now. Yes. Double down. And I understand what you mean about the degradation of elite politics, but can you put a finer point on that?

Well, look at the UK. I mean, I love the UK. Yes. We have a government that is wildly incompetent. They even know they're incompetent. We're going to have a budget that's going to destroy what's left of the middle class. Look at France, complete chaos right now, complete loss of direction. Italy, struggling, struggling, but with Maloney, there's some strength there. But many of the other countries, of course, Spain. Spain is now, You may not be aware, I'm fighting Spain in a big way against their tax administration. We just outed in a press conference last week the fact that Spain is using Huawei computers to store tax information for Americans. Not really. Yes. And not only are they doing that, but they have this discriminatory policy towards Americans. They have 50,000 Americans. They have hundreds of thousands of foreigners. They're doing discriminatory tax audits and basically stealing Stealing the money from foreigners to try to subsidize a government that is the most corrupt government I've seen since Papa Doc Duvalier. I think something like 21 indictments, the Prime Minister's wife, his brother, the general prosecutor. I mean, what's going on in Spain is unexplored territory in the United States, and people don't seem to have any interest in finding it.

No, zero interest. It's a vacation spot. That's it.

The king is flying to China because Because Sánchez is all in with China, of course, and Venezuela. It's astounding. The rule of law is under such attack there that the EU is quietly sending a commission to investigate in January, because everybody in Europe knows rule of law is dead in Spain. So it's frightening what's going on there. And this is what I mean about the calcification of the ruling elite.

But what is that? Now I'm asking you, I'm luring you into philosophy, but I'm very interested, and I agree with everything you said. It's observable, it's provable, but where does it come from? Is it a natural cycle? Or is it something else?

The cost of being a politician are so high. The reputational costs are so high. The materialistic nature of all of us now, the loss of ideology, the loss of principles, the loss of faith. This leads to a loss in terms of the quality of people entering politics. That's right. You have a chaotic world situation, which there's a lot of fear. It leads to a completely It's completely transactional foreign policy. More and more states are engaging in this transactional policies as opposed to following any form of ideological policy.

It sounds like a part of a cycle then. Just as politics becomes less productive, therefore more reviled by the population. These are supposedly democratic countries. They're not really, but they still have the skin suit and people are mad at the political class. So that means that only the worst people join the political class.

Right. And yet fascinating what I'm seeing in watching the Orthodox community, the Christian Orthodox community, and the Jewish community, the Jewish community as a result of this horrible growth of anti-Semitism, the Orthodox community as a result of the woke nature of many Christian churches, is that those who are fundamental in their faith are growing. Orthodox Christianity is growing at a massive rate.

Oh, yeah.

Massive.

I'm sure Orthodox Judaism is, too.

Yeah, because people are clinging to real values. That's right. In Europe, quite frankly, it's very hard to find inspiration. In the United States, we have a president. By the way, I think probably the most effective president in foreign affairs that we may have had since Nixon. I think he's incredibly consequential in foreign affairs. On domestic policy, on legal issues, I think the rule of law is in trouble, but I won't go into that now.

I've noticed. No, I agree.

But foreign policy-wise, he's moved incredible mountains. I'm not just talking about the recent activities activities with the hostages. I'm talking about as a lawyer engaged in Africa, the man has done more to open up our eyes to the opportunities in parts of Africa. He's made it much less risky to go into Africa. As an American in Africa over the last decades, you don't know how frustrating it is when the Department of Justice opens up investigations the minute American companies want to venture into Africa or into Latin America. And now that's not happening. And now American companies are going into some of the Wild West countries in Africa and Latin America. And I say more power to them Why would we just hand this to China? Congo, most obviously, but others. Yes.

Speaking African countries, all of a sudden, not defending Nigeria, I I don't have strong views in Nigeria, but Nigeria has become famous in the last week as a country in which there's Christian persecution going on. I think there's been a lot of conflict between Muslims and Christians in Nigeria for my whole life. But all of a sudden, it's a centerpiece of the conversation. What is the truth? You've been in and out of Nigeria for how long?

Fifty years.

Fifty years. 1975. Is that correct? Yes. It's a long time. You know Nigeria pretty well. I What is the truth about what's going on? I ask because you've got credibility. You know the country, and you're spending the rest of your life defending Christians around the world. Tell me what the actual truth of Christian persecution in Nigeria is.

Let's be very clear that The Nigerian government is populated by Christians and Muslims. I have represented in his earlier life, the National Security Advisor of Nigeria, when he was a young man, and he's a lovely individual and caring and universally respected in terms of religious issues. Devout Muslim, but universally respected. In my adopted family in Lagos, the O'Desanye family adopted me when I was a very, very young man and living there. I have a half brother there, Dapo O'Desanye, That family is a totally integrated family, Muslim, Christian. I was always teased that I was a Juruba, which is a Jewish Yuruba. But there have always been tribal conflict. I spoke to the foreign minister before I came here because I wanted to get clarity on the government's position. Absolutely, let's be clear, President Tinubo's wife is a Christian pastor. This is not targeted at Christians. There are probably an equal or more number of Muslim deaths. I am grateful to President Trump for identifying these attacks on Christians. Believe it or not, you can blame some of this on the French who had this- I know nothing about it, but I believe you anyway. They had a massive force in the Sahel.

They armed the Toregs, which are a notorious notoriously aggressive tribal group. That arming has led to mass killings of Christians. The fact that when Libya blew apart a massive amount of arms went down to Boko Haram. Can't be denied by anyone. Nigeria wants to consult with the United States. Nigeria wants assistance in protecting Christians and Muslims, protecting their populations. Nigeria feels it has not had a fair shake from Washington. I don't work for Nigeria. I'm not going to go on and on. The foreign minister is a close friend who I respect deeply. But I can tell you from my work, I was privileged to represent one of the Nigerian states years ago at Kuaibam. We won a case actually for them. The Nigerians would welcome American assistance with open arms. This is unlike Ukraine, which is destroying its church, or Armenia, which is destroying its church. Here you have a government that wants to protect its populace. It They don't have the resources. Nobody's going to deny Nigeria has been racked by corruption all the years I've known it. But they want a new deal, a new relationship with Washington, and in part, to assist them in protecting Christians.

So when I read some of what I've been reading, I'm never going to say that Ted Cruz isn't a brilliant man. But I'm going to say I might have a little more time in Nigeria than he does, and I would welcome him to speak to the foreign minister or others, because one thing America doesn't need are more enemies. Africa is the future. I have said it time and time again. I'm privileged to be counsel to the Democratic Republic of the Congo. My firm has spent many years. We're still trying to defend the opposition leader of Tanzania, Tundulisu, who's been illegally jailed, a thousand are dead, protesting completely bogus, fraudulent elections. To the credit of the United States, at least in the Senate, they've spoken out. Foreign Relations Committee has spoken out, We need our administration. We certainly need the EU to stop funding this grotesque government in Tanzania. But we have to stop looking at Africa as a security concern alone. We have to recognize that between their minerals and between the entrepreneurial spirit, Nigerian lawyers are as good or better than American lawyers or British lawyers. I mean, there is an incredible infrastructure of intelligence in Nigeria that we don't know anything about.

All we try to do is sanction and condemn. It is a horrible, horrible part of our policy that we sanction the hell out of everybody. We are responsible for the consolidation of power in Moscow under Putin. If we were not sanctioning the hell out of all these people who had moved to Europe, who knows whether Putin would still be in power?

Exactly. No, that's I know. It's so counterproductive that it's got to be part of some larger strategy that I'm too dumb to understand because it's achieving the opposite of the intended result.

Let me tell you, I'm working in Iran in Iraq, against Iranian interests. We have a woman, Sarah Salim, who is an American citizen, incredibly bravely, defending her interests and those of Kurdish in the north, and you know the Kurds are going to have an election soon. She's defending their interests against a wildly corrupt chief justice named Zaidan, who is actually an instrument of Iran. There have been a complete reversal of her fortunes before the courts because of corruption against a group called the Hannah Brothers. When we've gone to the US Embassy for help, this is an American citizen who, by the way, was kidnapped and tortured 10 years ago and has been fighting for her redemption and for compensation against Al-Maliki and Zidane and others. Our embassy pledges neutrality, does not help this brave American citizen.

How can they not help an American?

Listen, we cannot understand it, especially in a moment where the future of Iraq, which is massively important to the United States, is at risk. I mean, there's an election coming up in Iraq as well, and the oil wealth of that country is almost unimaginable. The issue is whether the Iraqi militia will disarm, whether, in fact, the government that we not only have spent billions to support, but we lost almost 5,000 lives, whether that government will be a government somewhat free of the corruption and control of Iran. Our government has been impudent. There's a few people in Congress who have spoken out and blessed them for doing that, but very few people have paid Iraq any thought at all. And yet We over concentrate on Ukraine to the exclusion of almost everything else.

Ted Cruz is upset about what's happening in Nigeria to Christians. I'm not against him being upset about that. You say it's much more complicated than he's presenting. Much more. Probably more tribal than religious. I don't know much about it. But how much has Ted Cruz said about the US-funded destruction of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church?

Nothing. Nothing at all. Nothing? Nothing.

How can that be?

Listen, Tucker, nobody. The Washington Post did a hit piece on me. A woman I knew quite well, did a terrible hit piece, tried to present me as a Russian agent. That was their focus. There was no issue about what's happening to the church. None at all. The funny thing, by the way, is We are not trying to change American policy. Where you and I disagree is I've always been totally supportive of Ukraine from a military standpoint because my clients are in the front line. Members of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church are fighting and dying for Ukraine. I don't know if you remember last time I met you, I showed you a video that we had done of some young men in the army speaking out for the church. Well, one of those young men has just died fighting Russia. His comment in that video was to the President, How do you want me to fight when my own church, I can't defend my own church in my town. It's so sad. And Arsene, here is a bishop. One of my lawyers went to the jail in the warzone to meet Bishop Arsene. He has been in jail 17 months.

He has no stomach. He is horribly ill, horribly ill. He is a monk. He is a bishop. He has spent his years devoted to a cathedral. What happens is we think after 17 months, they're going to release this poor man in his 60s, possibly to die. They get him out for a moment, and the secret police arrest him again on the trumped-up charge that he resisted the Russian invasion. He resist the rest of an evasion, some completely bogus charge. And he is incarcerated again. It's a level of cruelty and torture I cannot express to you.

And Cruz has said nothing about it. No, really, no one said anything about it. But Cruz, specifically, but he's all of a sudden, out of nowhere, deeply concerned about the plight of Christians in Nigeria, which I want to restate. Maybe a totally valid concern. I don't know. But that's weird. What is that? All of a sudden, everybody's concerned about people who clearly have no track record of being interested in Christians at all, including Ted Cruz. What is going on? Where is this coming from?

Well, in fact, what's interesting is they're calling it a genocide. A genocide, under international legal terms, requires an intent. Certainly, it's a very strange scenario where you have a government richly populated by Christians and accusing them of some form of genocide.

The President, who's wife is a Christian pastor. But I mean, one thing I do understand is coordinated propaganda, and this is coordinated propaganda. I mean, is it?

Look, I can tell you that the Nigerians have no idea where this is coming from. They've wanted Washington's attention since the beginning of the Trump administration. There are 230 A million Nigerians who long for a strong relationship with the United States, who are being cultivated by Russia, cultivated by China, cultivated by India, but want to work with America, and we ignore them until we condemn them for a genocide that is absolutely not a genocide. Yes, I support President Trump's interest in helping out Christians everywhere. But let's be fair to a government who is working to try to protect Christians and doesn't have the resources.

Right. This is clearly, I'll just say it out loud. It's an effort to draw the attention of faithful Christians in the United States away from long-standing persecution that we have studiously ignored in Ukraine and other parts of the world. I mean, it's obvious to me what's going on. Does that sound crazy?

No, because I don't have another way to explain it. One other thing I want to mention on your show is that we have this new white paper on Armenia called Pashinian and the Persecution of Samuel Karapetian. It's available online, and it's at freekarapetian. Com. And please download it and you will see, it's 60 or so pages, but it provides the entire history the persecution. But as you discovered, the Romanian genocide, from there till now, Armenia has been a brave Christian country in a terrible neighborhood. Having been in their court, having been in the jail, having met with Karapetian, I am at a complete loss about the fact that I know they They think that they're going to have this prayer breakfast. I believe one of the Trump children is going to Armenia. I'm sure Donald Trump Jr, again, has no idea of what's actually going on there. It's a terrible situation where because you can't get into the media to tell them the truth, so many senior people in the United States operate on ignorance and reputation launder people like Pashinian.

Well, I've been an unwitting participant in that phenomenon myself. So I know. You don't really know what's going on. You get used. I've been used. I deeply regret it. I'm not going to happen to me again if I can help it, but I'm sympathetic in general to that because, again, I've experienced it. But the Ukraine thing is anyone who wants to know about what's happening to the church in Ukraine can find out. That's not a secret now. Are there a prayer breakfast for Ukraine? Yes. Actually? Yes. Does anyone ever bring this up?

Our church is not invited.

To the prayer breakfast? Yes.

We're not invited.

The biggest church in Ukraine is not invited to the prayer breakfast for Ukraine.

In Ukraine? No, no. They're not invited. As you're aware, when I fought to get into the religious freedom conference last time, we had to fight to get a table to put information on. Then when I wanted to speak, they loaded a panel with five or six other people, and I got about two minutes to speak. Well, the man who is in charge of the destruction of the church was a keynote before a large audience.

Who organized this?

This is the International Religious Freedom Caucus, I think. I got a call from Sam Brownback to say, If you do speak, could you be civil? I said, Well, you don't know me, Mr. Brownback, but I don't have any record of incivility. At It's not in my nature. I just want an opportunity to speak out for the people of this church.

Sam Brownback, former senator from Kansas. Yes. He was running this?

I think he was involved. I have no idea.

But did he speak out against the destruction of the largest church in Ukraine at a religious freedom event?

Nobody did. Let me go further.

That is so bonkers to me. I can hardly even believe what you're saying.

Well, wait a second. What's worse is they brought army folks. The people were in Ukrainian army uniforms walking with OCU priests, that's State Church priests, through the halls of this religious freedom breakfast. I'm sorry, Freedom Convention or conference. They had a happy hour, a happy hour, sponsored by Ukraine.

That is absolutely crazy. Are they going to do this for China, too?

A Uyghur happy hour.

Yeah, exactly. Celebrating religious freedom in China. It's all... Okay, last question, which I do think sums it up. You've been in and out of Ukraine a lot. You've got, of course, a huge Ukrainian client. Can you go to Ukraine? No. Why?

I'm under criminal investigation in Ukraine.

For what?

I don't know. I just know they've announced that I'm under investigation. But again, it's no idea. It's like with Carapetian. They try to find something to get you on, and they invent stuff, as you know. So it's really... I'm very I'm tempted to go, and I may go again, but I have no idea if I go, if I'll get out. And to some extent, it's a bit like that with Armenia, because in Armenia, they've just arrested not only bishops, but now they've arrested three mayors who spoke out and who weren't helpful, as well as the family of the patriarch, the Catholicos, the brother and some other relative. On again, completely trumped up charges.

It feels like we're moving very quickly to just global repression. It seems like liberal democracy has been so discredited, no one's defending it, and it's dying before our eyes. That's the overview from everything you've said.

Look, the EU has lost its way.

There's no question. I think the EU is a tremendous danger if it doesn't get its act together on fundamental values. There's this dialectic going on. Everybody is afraid of Russia, completely afraid, paralyzed. I mean, a Russian drone crosses the border and we're a Defcon one. Yet, After, I don't know, four plus years, Kiev isn't taken. I think there's been a 1% change in territory. So how can Europe be so completely in fear of Russia, and yet at the same time instrumentalize that fear to destroy their economies, to maintain sanctions, to engage in wildly self-destructive behavior and fail to maintain democratic values. You saw them throw out a candidate in You saw what they're trying to do in Germany. You see what's happened in France. It is a continuous obliteration of rule of law, and we have got to start getting back to first principles with respect to rule of law everywhere, or we will lose it completely everywhere.

Bobby Amsterdam, I swear I check the news regularly waiting for an account of your arrest I hope it never comes, but you are taking actual physical risks on behalf of people who don't have power. So I'm grateful to you for that.

Thank you for having me.

Stay free.

Thank you.

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