Transcript of James Tour: Super Humans, Genetic Engineering, Cloning, Lies of Evolution, and What Really Is Life?

You are a professor at Rice in Houston. What do you teach there? Tell us about your specialty, your work, your professional work.

I'm an organic chemist. I teach organic chemistry, but I also do nanotechnology. I have appointments in chemistry as well as in material science, in nano engineering, as well as in computer science. I will teach at the interface of all of these. And that's what I do. I teach and I do a lot of research. I have a big research group there, and we work in the area of nanotechnology across from pharmaceuticals. I started several pharmaceutical companies, several materials companies, several electronics companies, Companies. We have new AI computing/memory chips we've made and other memory on the market through companies we've started. That's what we do. We generate new things and publish papers, produce PhD students, and start companies.

Now, you're actively involved in scientific research. I'm actively- Involved in scientific research, not just teaching.

Yes, that's what I do. Most of my day is scientific research. I only lecture two and a half hours a week, something like that, and the rest of my time is on the research side.

I should I would say for people who aren't grounded in this, you're well, and I know that you won't say it, but you're well known in your field. I'm saying that because you also speak openly and have your entire career, I think, about Jesus and God and the fact that you are a believing Christian. That would seem to be an internal conflict. You don't hear that. To the extent you do, you hear that scientists, of course, can't be believing Christians because that's a conflict with science.

Yeah, I've heard that before. I've never felt the conflict. Actually, my science makes me believe all the more because when I see things, I understand it, and it is amazing. I mean, we got this wooden table here, and I know why this has the properties that it does. I mean, when you have a tree, you can run a car right into the tree, and the car is destroyed, and the tree just stays there just fine. I mean, why is that? I know why this has the properties that it has because it has these carbohydrates, these polysaccharide strandss that are held together by these hydrogen bonds, and they will give a little bit. And so you have this amazing impact strength on a piece of wood. I mean, the common man on the street doesn't know that, and I know that. And I'm like, God, you're amazing. This is just what an amazing piece of construction. I mean, you take a piece of plastic. I mean, after five years, the thing's starting to decompose, certainly after 10, and you can go around the world and you can see thousand-year-old structures made out of wood. The wood is still there.

I mean, for God to have made a material like this. I work in the area of material science. It makes you look at, God, you're amazing. How do you do this? Then you look at life, living entities. I mean, how do you pull this thing off? We don't know how to build like this. There's a reason why we build robots out of plastic and wires and silicon rather than molecules. Every time you want to build something, what do you do? You look at something that already does that and you mimic it. Well, why don't we build our robots out of molecules, out of polysaccharides and polypeptides and lipids and nucleic gasses? Why don't we build? Because that's what's demonstrated to us in nature, we would just copy it because we have in the fire the idea. It's so hard to think about how you're going to build something out of molecules. So what do you do? You build it out of plastic, you build it out of silicon. I mean, these basic four classes of components. And I'm like, God, how do you do this? This is what? It gives me much more appreciation for God.

When I see this as a scientist, who has this understanding that I have? Nobody. I look at a tree, I see a leaf, and I know why it's green, and I know that there's a magnesium atom sitting in the middle of a porphyrin, and photons are funneled. Funnel light is funneled into that magnesium atom. It hits that magnesium atom, it ejects an electron, and that starts a photosynthesis this process. So it takes carbon dioxide, the things that we exhale, it uses the carbon to build the tree, and then it takes the oxygen and releases it for us to breathe. Nobody else knows it. And I look at a tree and I see that. I look at you, I know exactly what's happening with your eyes. I mean, there's these redoxon-type molecules that every time a photon of light hits your eye, this thing is changing its configuration, and then it has to relax back. And this is why you see the image of me. Every time you learn something about me, it's just an electronic interaction. And then this is going to protein synthesis. And then this protein synthesis, as you go to sleep tonight, it'll turn into a hardwired interconnects in your brain.

Who knows this but a scientist and you give glory to God? This is amazing.

It's interesting, though, because I think many scientists would describe the properties of a tree as you just did and wind up worshiping the tree.

Yeah, Yeah, it's unfortunate that happens. I mean, it's like G. K. Chester said, When you stop believing in God, you don't stop believing in everything. You start believing in anything. I mean, so you think this tree is your God. I mean, Yeah, it's really unfortunate. But I think scientists sometimes give an image on the outside that's not really what's on the inside. I've many times sat with them and I said, Do you really understand life? Do you understand how this thing works? Do you understand what's going on here? Do you understand how these things came about? I've never had a scientist say to me, Oh, yeah, no problem. I understand. We have a pretty good grasp on this. Never in private. Never in private. They'll never say that. I've had people say, Jim, look, I hear you. Don't quote me, but I'm with you on this thing. And so I think the vast majority of them agree with me, but they don't say it.

So without even getting far, I want to get to the core question, which is what is life and how is it created? But before we get there, what you just said makes sense, of course. There's no evidence anyone really understands any of this, but why not just admit that?

Sometimes the community is not very warm when you admit that thing. You get excluded from certain societies from certain academies. When you start speaking like that, when you don't toe the party line, scientists are just like everybody else. We want to allay our fears and be part of the crowd and be part of the group. And so we say things.

But I thought that science required, well, honesty above all, an admission that you don't know something, and then a declaration that you do, if you think you do, et cetera, et cetera. But you always have to come back to what you know. So Why wouldn't you admit when you don't know?

So you thought that?

I did think that. I was told that in school.

Yeah. Sorry.

I actually only learned during COVID that wasn't true, but I didn't know that.

Yeah. Many people learned during COVID that wasn't true. Scientists have lost a lot of credibility, and rightly so, it needed to be lost because we're not very honest about many things. A lot of times we'll see things, and I think that we will keep preaching the same thing and underscoring it. You have this ancestral relationship in the sense of it's peer review. And if the paper you're reviewing seems to come against and discount some of the things that you have been saying your whole career. And it's very easy to mix that paper and to say, I don't think this paper should be published, and to give reasons why it shouldn't be published. So if you want to get grant money, you need to say certain things. And it's very hard to come with something that's going to shake up a field. It's very easy to come in with small developments. But to something that's going to shake up a field, that's very hard to do. The system is not made for that.

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Well, I I don't think that any scientists go into this thing with this honesty on their forefront. I believe that. They don't wake up in the morning, I'm going to write something false today. I don't think they do. We all get brought up in this educational system where we're taught something. Then as we start researching this and we start saying, Hey, this is not exactly right. I don't see exactly what you're saying. That bothers people. I can give you examples of this. Many times I've challenged the community. I mean, show me where I'm wrong on this. Show me. And nobody will come forward. I mean, I have specific examples. I said, I've even gone so far as to say, I don't understand the chemistry behind the evolutionary process. I mean, you'll talk generality. You want to fly over 30,000 feet and look down. Okay, you can describe it. But tell me about the chemistry. Tell me about molecular interactions that are going to have to occur, the changes at the molecular level and how that happens, you would think my colleagues would say, no problem, Jim, let's go out to lunch.

I would think that, actually.

I'll tell you how it happens. I'll tell you what happens. But they don't. They don't. They don't tell me how it happens. It's very rare. Only one colleague in my whole career from Washington University in St. Louis, reached out to me and he tried to explain to me. We got together. I flew out there. I mean, this is how badly I wanted to know. Talk to me about the chemistry behind this evolutionary process because I'm just not getting it. I spent two days with him and we got a room there in his building and he just took me through it. I appreciated him, his taking the time, but I still walked away not really seeing the chemistry, but I appreciated his trying.

You flew to St.

Louis to hear this? For two days.

Okay. I don't want to take us off track, and I will get back to the question of evolution and what do we know and what don't we know. But can we start at the beginning, which is with life? What is life?

Well, what is life is not answered by science. There are the characteristics of life. What is life is probably something much better explained in the Bible. You behold and you say human life is this way. It's pretty corrupt, and it's It's fairly weak. It rebels against God. This is the what is life question. But the characteristics of life is that it's responsive to the environment. It has growth and change. It has metabolism. It breathes, has homeostasis, it's made of cells, and it passes on traits to offspring. Those are the characteristics of life. That's very well defined by science. Now you see scientists trying to change those definitions and give it a much smaller smaller number of those things. So it's something that they can claim that they have made, but what they've made is just a bunch of nonsense. It's really not life at all. It's things people have seen for a long time, and it's just really not life. Show me the homeostasis. Homeostasis is a constant internal state. So if you go outside on a freezing cold day, your body has to maintain its body temperature. And not just your body, every cell in your body has to maintain a proper temperature, proper PH balance, proper proton interactions, has to still make ATP, still has to carry out all of these functions.

That's homeostasis. All of these vast number of things that have to happen. You show me any one of your synthetic garbage that you say is a cell. And show me the homeostasis in this. It's not there. Show me the metabolism here. Show me that it breathes. Show me what it's doing with oxygen. Show me. It's not there. And so this is the characteristics of life. And every cell has it. It has to be made of cells. This has always been a characteristic of life. It has to be made of cells. So we see this in every cell, but we don't know how to mimic it.

I had no idea there was an effort underway to change the definition of life. Who is behind that effort and what's the point of it?

Origin of Life researchers, where they want to claim that what they've done in their laboratory is made life. Sometimes they'll use these words code word. Here's some proto-life. What does that mean? Then you see it ramped up in the lay press, Scientists have created life. It's really quite simple. This is what they'll say. It's really simple. I mean, even articles from 2025 are claiming that scientists finally figure it out how to make life. It's nonsense. These scientists say these things. I've challenged them. I said, Any of you can come on my podcast and tell me about this, or if you're afraid that I'll doctor it somehow, we'll go on your podcast, or we'll get a neutral party podcast. You would think that there would be lots of origin of life scientists that would come forward and they say, I said, You can't even Hook two amino acids together. You can't even take the amino acids D and K and hook them together without the side chain's interfering. You can't even hook two molecules of glucose together, let alone a polysaccharide, with proper attachment using prebiotic chemistry. You can't do it. Am I the only one seeing this?

If I'm wrong, come on my channel and tell me how this is done, and none of them will come on. You say, Well, they haven't seen my challenge. No, I also e-mailed them. I also e-mailed them. I said, Come on, on. Come on. Talk about this. None of them will come forward. One said, Oh, I could explain to you these things in an hour. I said, Okay, I will come to you. I will come to your institute. I will come to you, and I will sit there for an hour. You explain it to me. I said, I'll even I'll sit there all day, and I won't ask any questions unless I don't understand something. I won't challenge you. I'll just listen. He said, I'm too busy for that. I mean, so this is a game now. What are they pointing to when they say, We've created life? They're pointing to their 40 years of career where they've been saying we're on the verge of making life. I mean, there are people that are doing this, that they say that they're on the verge of making life. Jack Soszteck, who was a professor at Harvard, now he's at the University of Chicago, Nobel Prize winner, said in 2014 to a gathering in New York, a gathering of lay people in New York, that he will have life in his lab in 3-5 years.

That was in 2014. Guess what? He missed his deadline. Then years later, he now says, We're still working on trying to get the RNA, just trying to get RNA. He hasn't even made RNA. From RNA to life is a chasm that's a universe wide. He hasn't even made the RNA, yet he was making claims to the lay public that he'd have life in his lab in 3-5 years. Then Dmitry Tarseilow, an astrophysicist from Harvard, said, Well, it's not going to be 3-5. It's probably more like five and not three. He said at the same gathering, well, guess what? He missed his deadline. Steve Benner has said on podcast, he says that most of the many of the... That's exactly, most of the many of the paradoxes in origin of have been solved. Like none of them have been solved. Zero. Zero have been solved. In his own mind, they are solved. I challenge him on it. I said, What is solved? You said that they've been solved. What is solved? Tell me about this. He had no answer for me. I mean, I walked up to the guy. I saw him come to a gathering.

I walked right up to him and said, explain it to me. He has made these comments. Lee Cronin, another origin of life researcher, has said that within a couple of years, he said in 2011, within a couple of years, he would have made life in his laboratory. Guess what? He missed his deadline. They're nowhere close. Nowhere close. Then this goes from their mouths when they say this thing, to the press, which ramps it up. And then it goes into the textbooks, and it's in all of our textbooks, not just in elementary school, even to the advanced graduate level, not introductory graduate, advanced graduate level textbooks in biochemistry talk about the same nonsense.

So creating life would be taking something that's inorganic, we can all agree, is not alive, and then turning into something that meets the criteria you described for life. You say there are paradoxes in the origin of life itself, and they haven't answered any of them. What are those paradoxes?

You have to have four classes of compounds. So there's four classes of compounds that build us. You have the lipids which surround one of our cell structure. You have the polysaccharides. This is the sugar's hooked together. This is our energy sources, and some of these act as channels through which ions can flow. You have the nucleotides, which are RNA and DNA. Then you have the polypeptides, which are proteins and our enzymes, the little things that construct our body. Nobody has ever made those polymers, any classes, any of those by a prebiotic route. By prebiotic route, I mean using the chemicals and techniques that would have been available on an early Earth. That means prebiotically. Can we make some of those structures synthetically in a laboratory? Absolutely. We can do this. Normally, what we'll do is we'll take a cell and deconstruct it and then rebuild the pieces as we want. Not only can we not make the polymers of these, we can't even make the individual individual units of these in a prebiotically relevant manner. Each of these has sterichemistry. People will say, Well, what about the Miller-Hurie experiment in 1953? The Miller-Hurie experiment made several of the amino acids just by taking sparks and this reducing environment and having certain gasses in there, and they found amino acids.

Nobody has ever been able to take that type of mixture and do anything useful with it because the the molecules don't have handedness. Molecules can come in two forms, a right-handed and a left-handed version. Almost all biological molecules-Molecules have handedness? Absolutely.

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If you look at your left hand and your right-hand, these are mirror images of other. If you hold your left hand up to a mirror, you will see what looks like your right-hand. If you hold your right-hand up to the mirror, what you'll see is what looks like your left hand. The two are not the same, and you know that when you try to put on a glove, the glove doesn't fit right. And so they have this mirror-image relationship. Almost all biological molecules have a mirror-image relationship. So when they will use a prebiotic method to make these molecules, they only get the mixture. Biology can only run on one. It can't run on the mixture of them. It's hard to get one. Are there modern techniques to do this? Absolutely. Are there any techniques that could mimic what went on on an early Earth? Nowhere close, nowhere close. People say it happened on a chiro surface. People have tried this on chiro surfaces. They've never gotten good hand in this quality. Never. We don't even know how to make the basic building blocks of the building blocks that make us. We don't know how to polymerize them.

We don't know. Then even if we had them, we wouldn't know what to do. For example, you can take a cell, a living cell, and you can deconstruct it. You can take it apart. You put in each bottle, each one of these four classes of compounds and all the ions in another bottle, and say, Okay, not on an of the Earth, but just in your modern laboratory, can you take all of these chemicals and just make a cell? Here's all the components of a cell. In fact, in here, you also have the informational code. You have to have the code. The code is the DNA that prescribes how this is going to be assembled. Just like when you build a house, you have to have the plans to build this thing. That code is what you need. And so when I give you the polymers in full form, that's the informational code because that's the sentence, the DNA, that's the code. That's the sentence that has you. The discrete molecules before you polymerize them, that's just letters. It's like a bunch of letters, alphabetic letters. That means nothing. That has no words. And those don't come together and any construct of words.

If you shake it a lot, you might see the word THE, you might find the word in, but you're not going to get much. You're not going to get much out of this. And you have to have a lot of prescription here. I give you all of this in your modern laboratory. And I've challenged the entire Origin of life community with this. I'll give you everything. Can you just assemble a cell? I've given you the code because I've given you the DNA structure. Just assemble a cell. Can any of you do it? Nobody's forward. And I say that the year that you do that, you will win a Nobel Prize for sure for doing that. Can you do it? Nobody can. We're nowhere close to that. Nowhere close. So even if you could make all of these pieces, could you do something with it? And the answer is no, they don't know what to do. And a cell is an amazing machine. People will say, Well, cells were much simpler back then. Much simpler. No, we already know what the simplest cells are. First of all, yeah, we know what the simplest cells are because the simplest cells that we have on on Earth today are very similar to the cells in the fossil record, the simplest cells in the fossil record.

That hasn't changed. But biophysicists have already told us you can calculate what is the simplest cell that you could have that could still be operable. They can calculate this. All right, make one of those. Nowhere close. That has like 15 basic components, structures that have to be made. How many of those 15 have been made in a prebiotic sense? How many of those have ever been made? Zero. None. None. None of them have ever been made. We are so far from life and people will say, Oh, we're getting closer. No, we already know we're nowhere close. And the way you know in science that you know we're close is this. You look, okay, how far am I from the target? This is my target. This is where I am now. I move a little bit closer. I figured out something. But what's happened is the target has moved miles away from us. The target has moved miles away, just even though I moved a a nanometer closer here. Every year, the target moves further away. Why? Not because the cell is evolving, but because we learn about the complexity of the cell. We go, Oh, I have to make that, or I have to do that, or I have to have the whole system-level structure here.

This whole system-level structure to this, I have to have something called chirolinduced spin selectivity, which we didn't even know about until 25 years ago. I have to have the whole interactome solved, which we didn't know about until 20 years ago. So these things become increasingly difficult to think about solving. It's very hard to think about solving this because the target is moving away from us much faster than we're approaching it.

So if we don't understand how to create life, then I think it follows that we don't understand how life was created.

No, we have no idea how life was created. We have no idea. The Bible tells us that God created it, but he doesn't give us much details. He spoke it into existence. I The beauty of science is that God has done things, God has done certain things, and then he allows us then to investigate through science, what are the details behind this? That's what we're trying to do. We're trying to find the details. We're clueless on this.

But there is a very obvious sense in which the research air quotes that you're describing is more than science. It's like trying to take credit for creation itself. It's like putting yourself in the place of the creator.

If they could make life? Yeah. If they could make life, the question then becomes, why are they projecting? Why are they projecting as If they're on the verge of making life or having made life? I think that's fundamentally the question that you're asking. Why? Yes. Yeah. Why would they do this? I've I've often thought about this. Again, I don't think scientists wake up in the morning and say, I got to somehow project that I'm able to make life. You get caught up in this. It's like There's mob mentalities that you get caught up in it. People can get caught up in a mob mentality very easily. You have noticed. We're quite susceptible to this type of thing. What happens is you hear people talking about this and that we're on the verge of making life or we've got this thing figured out, and there's more and more people that are coming on and they feel that they need to speak like this, too. But they feel very uncomfortable sitting down with me for a discussion because I'm going to ask them the details. And as soon as I ask them just a few little details, I'm not a hard interviewer.

Then I got you. No, I just ask them a few very simple little things and everything starts to wither around the edges, and they know it. They know it. They know they don't have an answer to this. And these people, I mean, these things have actually happened. I've seen it. Steve Benner, major origin of life researcher. And you say, Why am I calling them out by name? Because they're the ones bringing it forward. Steve Benner can get on a podcast and tell me I'm all wrong and come forth with life. Just make life if you've got this thing figured out. He said that they've got all the pieces. They've pretty much got all the It was figured out. I saw him at a meeting. I didn't ask him. Somebody else did. Said, Okay, if you've got all the pieces, why don't you just put it together and make a sell? What he said is, Well, I've been a professor now for four score years. And so I'll leave this to the younger guys to do. I mean, this is a total cop-out. Total cop-out. This is the level that we're at. People, Oh, okay. Nice guy.

He's going to leave it to other people. Get the glory. I mean, you can't do it. Nobody can do it.

Is cloning making life? What is cloning exactly? And where are we in the science?

No, no, no. With cloning, you start with life. You start with life. You're never making life. So you never make that original cell. You take cells and you start duplicating them, or you take a cell and you can put in other genetic structure into that cell. And then that genome will start duplicating from there. So that you can start doing. And I think that's coming along. Certainly, they do it with pets. I mean, you just saw that Tom braided just had his dog cloned. I mean, he had a dog he really loved, and so he just got a dog cloned. I mean, there are these companies that will do it for me. What do you think of that? Well, it's going to be next people is what I think about. I'm really not that concerned about the dog, but when you can start doing it with people and you can start making a superhuman race, I mean, that is deeply concerning to me. It's interesting you think about this. You have this fertilized egg, and It seems as if this is life, this egg is now fertilized, and God puts a spirit in this. Now, sometimes this egg will split into two, and now you have identical twins.

And if there was a spirit there, it's like God puts another spirit in that other egg as well that has just formed. They just split off this first one because you get two independent entities that are identical twins, and they each have the spirit of God that he's placed within them, that he's put this spirit within them. They've been made in the image of God. So when you think about it in this context, you see that the God seems to put a spirit along with that that physical fertilized system. There seems to be a spirit there that he puts along with it. What would he do now that you have a cloned system? My guess is there'll be a spirit along with it. But you talk about things that you can do. So if I could take steroids and be 10% faster than anybody else, I mean, that's a huge advantage. If I could take some drug and be 20% smarter than everybody else, that is a huge advantage. And we would say, that's unfair. We can't have that in sports. We can't have that in competition. But you could do that. You could do that.

I mean, you you could make things, people, animals that are advanced. It's frightening because you know what people would do with such a thing. Every technology has advanced It's as people say, Aren't you afraid that this technology that you're developing might be used in the wrong way? I say, Yeah, certainly. I think about it, but all technologies are like that. People are really devious, and we can figure out how to do things and control things and weed out certain people and have others coming forward. Yeah, I think it's a danger because as the Bible says, Jesus didn't trust anyone. He didn't entrust himself to anyone because he knew what was in all men.

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Visit battalianmetals. Com. It's increasingly obvious what's in all men, I would say. It's such a change and advances in biotech get relatively little publicity outside of biotech, outside of the specialized world you guys live in. But my understanding is we're moving close to what you're saying. And that's something that at 56, I was warned about my whole childhood. Like, one of the lessons of World War II is creepy race science is like, bat. It's immoral. You shouldn't be doing stuff like that. I mean, I remember hearing that in school and like nodding along and yeah, that's good. And it does seem like there are a lot of well-funded people trying to build, I hate to use the phrase master race, but people who are engineered to be over everyone else. That just seems like a huge problem. Or am I letting my imagination get away with me?

Well, I There's massive restrictions upon that type of thing in the United States for government-funded research. As far as I know, that's not going on in the United States, but there are nations around the world where there's no inhibition on this type of thing. So I wouldn't be surprised if they were already there. I mean, if you can clone a dog, we're not that far from doing this as well. And what would that look like? Well, you could make them look all identical if you wanted to, or you could make them a little bit different. They would be superhuman in many ways. I wouldn't think that you would want to make an infirmed race. No, that's right. Yeah, they'd be superhuman. It's an interesting... Now, I don't work in that area, but we can't be far from that. Now, there are many good advances There's a lot of things that can come from this. If you have a child with a genetic disorder, the prospect of saying, look, to see a doctor and the doctor says, Don't worry, we can take care of that. I mean, imagine what that would do to a parent. They'd be like, You can take care of my child.

My child has autism. You can just spice out this segment and put in another segment where you just change a few of the nucleotides on there and he's going to be better. Yeah, we can do that. The hope for that is so good. Or I'm predisposed to having breast cancer, as many women find themselves in their families. The horrendous thing is that we still lop off body parts in this day and age to deal with this, and women even doing it preemptively. A lot of women. A lot of women. If you can say, No, we can deal with that. That is tremendous hope. That's where most of this is going. That's why this is continuing to be developed to offer these people hope. Are the things that you could do to modify people? Yeah, it could be abused. It could definitely be abused. And it's the same with many things. I mean, a car can be an ambulance, a car can be a getaway car from a murder in a bank route. I mean, everything is like that.

Right. But we arrest the getaway car driver. That's the point. Of course, everything. Chainsaw is a tool or a weapon. I get it. Nitroglycerin. But I don't think we're making any effort as collectively to say, wait a second.

Well, the scientific community is. Okay, good. It is. In fact, there was There was an abuse of this that came out in China about five years ago, six years ago, and the kabash was put on this from the community. What was the abuse? There was an operation where they were taking human embryos, a human embryo, and modifying the genome a little bit. They said it was all much like they had done with animals, and it was done on a human, and it came out. The Chinese professor, I think, was eventually put in prison. There was a huge amount of pressure, and the scientific community really came after the people. There was an American who was collaborating with them, and his career was about ended as a result of this. I knew him. I mean, he's a nice guy. I knew him, yeah. But it's about It was about the end of his career. I think there was a five-year penalty that you couldn't get government funding again, which is going to toast a career. That's the end of the career for an American active mission. The Community came strongly against that. Worldwide, we're a worldwide biochemistry community.

That's the one that made the news. Are the countries doing this that it's not making the news? We can only imagine.

Yeah, we can only imagine. I think we can guess.

Yeah.

Evolution. You flew to St. Louis to hear about the chemistry of evolution. Can you just describe for people who are not in your business what the theory of evolution is, and then if you could tell us what you think is incomplete or wrong about it.

Well, most of what I speak on is origin of life, which is before you have life, whatever What evolution does is it takes from that first cell, that first cell, and says, how do we get the diversity of what we have today from that first cell? So all of origin of life is getting to that first cell. Luca, it's called the last universal common ancestor. So that cell, which happened to be the progenitor of all life. And that cell then modified into the diversity of life that you see today. That's what evolution tries to do.

Adapting to its physical environment.

That's the idea. It adapts to its physical environment. Yes. To do that, it's a huge, huge leap, a huge leap to have that cell go into the diversity of what we have. Now, you talk about the evolution. The definition of evolution is constantly evolving, constantly evolving. It's constantly changing. What I grew up on was that it was natural selection and random mutation. Exactly. Random mutation, natural selection. That's what a lot of us grew up on. What Darwin was talking about, he was talking about natural selection. He knew less about the mutation aspect. Then the mutation and natural selection is what pulled this forward.

So natural mutation, as I understand, is the idea that you'll have an anomaly, and it turns out that anomaly is better suited to the environment. And so that creature, that organism is more successful in breeding, and then that becomes the dominant strain.

Yes. And that's what that is. But there are two distinct things. There's something called microevolution and there's macroevolution. Microevolution, we definitely see. We can see changes over time and say the bill of a bird. You can see what we do in my own lab because we work a lot with bacteria and trying to knock out super bacteria, is that you can see changes in bacteria to make them more antibiotic resistant. This is what we see, that these antibiotics don't work anymore. And these are very small mutations that may happen, very small permutations. More often than not, what happens, for example, with the bacterium is that you will have a population of bacteria and you treat them with an antibiotic, and there's one or two in this huge population that happen to have some level of resistance. Those are the only two left, and then they start to propagate. And so that's why, if you've ever been told to take these antibiotics, finish the whole regime. Correct. Or else you leave the really strong ones, the really ones that somewhat resistant, and then they become the dominant population. And so you really want to knock all of these out.

And so you see this, and then they start sharing their DNA between them. And bacteria are amazing. They even have these little tubules that they can transfer some of their DNA to another one. And you see this, and now you have a new population that is resistant.

That sounds like intent.

Oh, it sounds like, yeah. I mean, these are insidious little things.

But what is that? I mean, that sounds like behavior that suggests consciousness.

Well, many people actually say that there is consciousness within a cell for these very reasons, that they act according to the things that are put upon them. This is a new concept that's being put forward. It's different than the consciousness that you and I think of. Of course. Who am I? But they are responding to their environment. Something has come at them and they've responded to try to get around this. So, yeah, this Well, that maybe consciousness is not the right word. Maybe consciousness is not the right word, but that word is being used.

But it's a cousin anyway, right?

It's being used. All right. You can see these small permutations, but what you never see, never see or what is called body plan changes. Body plan changes. This encompasses many things. But you see these genetic networks would have to change. A body plan change would be an invertebrate, something that does not have a spine going to a vertebrate, something that has a spine, something like a worm going into something that has a spine. You never, ever see that. You never see. Now, there are hypotheses where people will see fossils and they'll say, Oh, this must have been a precursor to this. They will never see the transformative thing. That is for sure. I'm not the only person that is saying that. It's not just Jim Tour, the creationist, saying this. The problem with body- To be clear, the fossil record does not support the theory of evolution, at least as you're defining it. Well, yes, it does not support body plan changes. There are small permutations like the ones that I have just told you, but you will not see body plan changes.

In any fossil record that we found.

The only thing that you will see is people will hypothesize over that fossil. They'll see a fossil here and a fossil here, and they'll say, Oh, and then they'll see a fossil here. This must have been the transition to this. And they'll hypothesize with that. But it doesn't have to be the transition. This is strictly a hypothesis. And so we don't see that in the fossil record. Many people don't see that in the fossil record. Some people will say, we absolutely see that. The absolute people are actually becoming less and less. The problem with this, in order to have a body plan change, you have to have these genetic networks. These genetic networks are going to have to change. So the genetic networks occur very early on in life. This is the wiring that is going to occur to run this system. You clip one wire, it is catastrophically lethal to the organism. It is lethal. Everything goes haywire. People will say this, and there has never been an example of this where you can get into these early genetic networks and start changing things. Because if you change one little thing, you have to have many, many downstream things.

So it's not one little change can change this organism. No, it's not going to happen. Now, there have been experiments like Linsky. What he's done is he's looked at bacteria. Bacteria can multiply every 20 minutes. So with a person, it might be every 20 years. Bacteria multiply every 20 minutes. And this is why you can feel fine right now. And then after a few hours, you're like, wow, I feel terrible. I got to go home because this bacteria is doubling, doubling every 20 minutes. Doubling every 20 minutes. It doubles its population. That's what bacteria do. And so he has studied since 1988 and continues to this day studying the multiplication of bacteria and putting it under certain stresses to see what's going to evolve. He's never seen a body plan change, nowhere close. The only thing he's seen is a little change in a citrate operation. I've done a podcast on that with one of my colleagues who is a biologist, and he talks about how that changed, what was actually in the bacteria was already there, and it just turned that gene back on. It's just a regulatory thing. But in any case, yet no body plan changes.

We've never seen the macroevolution, the body plan change. Never has been seen. Here we had what was equivalent in bacteria to 2 million years of population changes. 2 million years, and we've never seen that. And so what we see, and we don't even see in the fossil record this. What we see is the Cambridge explosion. The Cambridge explosion, the Cambrian explosion explosion is that you went from about 540 million years ago, is presumed when this thing happened, is all of a sudden you burst on the scene with all these new species, all these new life forms. And it happened over a short period of time, little over 500 million years ago, is what the fossil record is suggesting. You don't see transitional forms. You don't see transitional forms before- They just appear. They just appear as if God spoke it into existence, as if God said, let this form. There's an explosion. And even firm people like Stephen Gould, who was a staunch evolution has said, this thing just pops out here. And so he spoke about- Wait, but doesn't that blow up the theory right there? Yes, it does. It gives tremendous- Because if evolution is real, then there would, of course, be a A gradual ramp up to that from a single cell.

And there is not. And there is not. And that's where he came up with this idea of what he called punctuated equilibrium. Everything is in stasis. Then all of a sudden, boom, it happened. And then it stays. What does that mean? Punctuated, that was his definition of this. So I'm not alone in this. I mean, Levine, Wagner, Davidson, Irwin. These are key biologists are saying these genetic networks networks are not going to allow body plan changes to happen. And so there's a big problem.

But how do they explain the Cambrian explosion?

There is no explanation for that. There's no explanation.

That seems like a big stumbling block on the way to faith and evolution to me. Yeah.

So we should see this seamless transition if it were a gradual process. And in the Cambrian explosion, we don't see that. There's this abrupt change, an abrupt change where many new species forth. So we don't see body plant changes. So you are absolutely right. I mean, I've seen some of the things that you said. We certainly see microevolution. Now, that's why this term evolution is a squiddly thing. You got it. It It depends on how you define this thing. We certainly see microevolution, these small changes within a kind, within a species. You see these small changes.

But we don't see the creation of new species through evolution in the fossil record.

I have to be careful of that because sometimes in plants, you can have a doubling of the genome for some unknown reason. And so in that sense, you could say it is a new species that is formed.

I was thinking among animals.

Right. And you don't see the body plan change. You don't see new digits coming. You don't see new organs. You don't see unicellular going to multicellular organisms, which you would have to have a lot of. You have to have Luca, this one cell, going now to multicellular organisms. This we don't see. And again, it gets back to this regulatory gene genetic network, this regulatory genetic network, which is this whole wiring plan. It is extremely complex. And you go monkeying with one thing in this, and all of this is formed very early on. And now once this thing is formed, you change this. You've lost a digit. It's huge and it's usually Usually highly lethal. And again, I'm not the only one saying this. People are going to say, well, Tor, you're a creationist. That's why you're saying this. No, I mean, what are you going to say to Davidson? What are you going to say to Levine? What are you going to say to Erwin? What are you going to say to Wagner? I mean, these are key guys that are saying exactly the same thing. These regulatory gene networks are a huge problem.

Well, it sounds like everyone's moving, I mean, toward your view, toward creationism of some kind, because if they're using the term design, then that, of course, implies a designer. How do you get design without a designer?

Implies designer. I mean, some people go so far as to say it looks designed, but of course it couldn't be. And so they'll go as far as to say something like that.

Now we're getting into religious faith. If they're telling me that they know something and that's the starting point against which they evaluate their observations, that's religious faith. That's not science, is it?

Well, I would agree with you. It is a terrific problem for them. It's a terrific problem. The more we learn about the cell, the more we see that this thing is an amazing entity, and it certainly looks designed.

Why is it, given that at best, the orthodoxies around evolution that I grew up with or thought I grew up with, to the extent I paid attention, are being questioned and haven't actually held up to scrutiny and the knowledge that we've accumulated, why is it still considered a deal killer to question evolution? I haven't checked your Wikipedia page, but I bet it's on there, that you've questioned evolution? Oh, yes.

Is it? It's there.

Good guess.

So origin of life is a little thing compared to evolution. Evolution, that's the holy cow. I mean, that's the thing you don't touch. There's so much around evolution. There's a whole department on evolutionary biology in every university. Of course. I would never say we should stop teaching evolution. I would say that we need to teach the problems with evolution and put those up front and all over so people can see the huge problems with this. Each year we're learning more and it makes it more difficult. And I'm going to be totally blasted for this thing. And there's going to be a hundred YouTube videos that are going to go and try to contest with this. But my position is getting stronger all the time. Show me the molecular basis, because I'm a chemist. I want to see the molecular basis for this. Show me the molecular basis on how you can have gross body plan changes. As of right now, it is not there. Now, if somebody knows this, come forward. Take me through the chemistry that makes these vast body plan changes. I don't understand it. And as a chemist, who better, who should be able to understand this better than me?

I mean, who should be able to understand it better than me? Certainly not the biologist. The biologist doesn't talk at the chemical level. So maybe the biochemist, maybe the biochemist would come forward and show me, the organic chemist, the molecular pathway for how these body plan changes would occur.

No one's taking you up on that?

No, nobody's taking me up. And nobody will. They'll make a bunch of YouTube videos, but they won't sit down and go through the chemistry involved.

So the question is more philosophical than scientific, but why the YouTube videos? Why the resistance? It seems to me, if you never mentioned your religious faith, and I heard this, I would say, That guy's a scientist. He's making a completely rational case based on measurable observations. I wouldn't be mad at you. I'd be like, That's really interesting. But people are mad at you and mad at anyone who questions this. What is that? Where does that come from?

Well, let me underscore it for you. Based on my record, I'm not just a regular scientist. The numbers came out a few years ago. I was in the 0. 001% of scientists based on the metrics of how you determine accomplishments, something called H index, something called a number of publications, called the number of citations and things like that. So you would think that I, of all people, should be able to understand this. And why is it that I can't, number one? Why is it that when I say that I can't. It causes such problems for people.

That's it right there.

What is that? Now, the YouTubers, they'll come forward and they'll start saying it. But the expert scientists, the PhDs in this area, they don't. They don't come forth and tell me the problems with this. They don't come forward and show me the molecular pathway to this. The people who really should know are not the ones coming forward. And the people who don't know, the people who know very little, they're the ones coming forward and saying this. That's the problem. Why doesn't the community do this? People have come with scientific ideas before that people thought was totally outlandish, and then they've been proved wrong. Yeah, they were outlandish.

It's the whole history of science is that.

Yeah. Why is it that they won't come forward? I can tell you part of the problem is they cut your funding and they make it very difficult for you. You don't get into their societies anymore.

But what's that? I know very little about science, as I'm sure it's obvious. I know a lot about lying and propaganda, and I know that when you see a lot of it, there's something underneath it that is being protected. There's a reason. Of all the things to be mad about someone denying evolution, denying like you're denying the Holocaust. I mean, really, it's a moral crime. I mean, they frame it like you've committed a crime. You're not just... What is that? Why do they care so much? There's something underneath all of this that's very important if they're defending it with this level of viciousness.

I agree. That might be better for a philosopher to answer. When I think about the human beings that I know, is that, first of all, they've made their career around this thing. Our textbooks are built totally around this thing. This is all people know. This is all people know. And it puts people in a position of power. We know this thing. It is frightening to people. So in my career, I've seen things cut. I've seen grants cut. I've had two people from two different federal agencies, two different federal agencies, come to my office because they did not even want to put this in an email to me. And they said, you- What? Yes. They said, Jim, you can stop writing proposals because they're never going to fund you. They're never going to fund you in this agency. You're not going to get funded. And I've even had a proposal that got a very high score. And then I called the program director and I said, what happened? What happened? I mean, at this score, this should have been funded. He says, You weren't funded? It was a shock to him. Someone above him nixed this.

Are there power brokers on this? Now, two federal agency people told me I can stop writing proposals to their agency.

Because you had questioned the orthodoxy on evolution? Correct.

Man. Because I had public... It was even more specific than that. In around the year 2000, I had signed a statement that was put out that questioned that it was carefully worded. And this was sent to me in an email. You know how fast you go through emails? I got an email, said, Could you agree to this statement that we view random mutation and natural selection as being inadequate to explain the diversity of life. Therefore, further research is warranted Warranted. That's it. It didn't say it's wrong. It just said we were skeptical of this simple little thing being able to explain the diversity of life. Further research is warranted. Now, scientists will always say, always say, For the research is warranted.

They should say that.

They're scientists. And because this is how we get our money. We wouldn't say, Well, got this figured out. No, you take it back. I'm good. You don't need the money. No, we always say that. Because I signed that statement, Because of that statement, these things started happening. It was in 2005. I was never being put up for the National Academy of Science, and I went to my colleagues, your colleagues are supposed... And Now, there was one person. They were both in the National Academy of Science. They were the ones that are supposed to be putting me up for this. One of them was a Nobel Prize winner, and the other one wasn't a Nobel Prize winner, but he was in the Academy. And just so that your audience knows, it was not Rick Smauley. Rick Smauley was a good friend of mine, a Nobel Prize winner. It was not him. It's two other people. And they told me, Jim, you're not going to get in the National Academy of Science because you signed that statement. I said, What are you talking about? That statement? That came to me in an email and they said, Could you agree to this?

I said, Sure, I could agree to that. Who wouldn't agree to that? So I said to this The one who was a Nobel Prize winner in this other, I said, I have done as much as anybody getting into the academy. And the one Nobel Prize winner said, No, Jim, you've done as much. You've done twice as much and you're not getting in. Twice as much. So that is real. Now, I'm in the National Academy of Engineering.

Because of that statement?

Because of that statement. That's what they said. And I said to them, what is it on this statement that you don't like. Neither of them knew what the statement said. I said, okay, you guys go back and read it and you come back and see me and we'll discuss it again. We reconvened. They went and they read it. They said, well, it was carefully crafted. I said, well, you're not going to get people to sign something that's not carefully crafted. I said, what is it? They said, well, that statement has been used to try to get creationism in schools. That had nothing to do with me. I mean, that's so-Oh, man, you're living my life.

Yes, I know. Those words have been used by other people at other times to do something bad. Therefore, your connection to them proves your connection to the bad people. I see. Yeah. I've been there. So I'm looking at this and I'm thinking, without understanding any of the details, There's a big story here because we can judge the importance of something by the reaction to it. We must suppress this idea. If enough people say that, it doesn't mean the idea is right, of course. It doesn't. But I want to know what the idea is because Because it's provoking such a reaction. I don't think I've heard many ideas that have provoked the reaction you're describing. I mean, this is amazing. So it makes you think it once for the third time, underneath all of this is something really big, and it's bigger than funding. And it may be that if evolution, as we understand it, macroevolution is not the explanation for what we're seeing, then there must be a creator. It points to God. Maybe that's the problem?

I think that may be the big One of the data points I have on this is that people see my content where I start blowing apart origin of life and I start questioning evolution. They write to me. They said, I walked away from my faith because of what I was learning in high school and in college. Now I see you saying what you're saying, and I see these guys don't have it figured out. I'm coming back. I'm coming back to my faith. I've had a lot of people tell me that they've seen what I have to say, and they're coming back to faith.

Could it be then, from what you just said, that evolution, as it's been described to us in school for the last 100 years, has been employed as a weapon against religious faith?

I think it certainly has been employed as a weapon. I don't think a lot of scientists go out with that intent.

I believe it. Darwin probably didn't try to overturn Christianity when he wrote about the Beagle or whatever. Or I don't know. Maybe he did. But it has in effect, been used that way. It sounds like to me.

It seems like it's drawn a lot of people astray now. I will tell you that some of the people who used to come against me on campus were the biologists. Were the biologists that came against me. The students would say, Oh, there's such and such biologist is saying these things. I said, Okay, well, why don't you Go and tell her that I would be glad to go toe to toe with her and she can explain to me what her trouble is with what I say. And then she stopped. She stopped saying things about me like that. Really, when you come right to this, I don't think that they can defend it. I mean, ask them, if we don't have a molecular basis for this, if we don't have a molecular explanation, if you fly over New York City 30,000 feet, you can say, there's a few structures. But it's when you get down into the heart of that city, it's when you get under that city and you see the infrastructure and all the tubes and the thing makes... That's the chemical basis behind this. We have to have a chemical understanding for this, and they will not give me a chemical understanding.

That's when I know there's a problem.

It's just funny they're punishing you for that. I mean, you're not the one at fault here. I wouldn't say. You ask a simple question, can you provide the chemical basis for the theory that you're telling me is true? And they can't. And you're the criminal? How does that work?

Yeah, it shakes up the apple cart. And plus, the whole career has been on this.

I've had a lot of careers that were totally stupid. And when you find out that you're on the wrong side of something, you just say so and move on. I don't understand why would you cling to something that you can't defend?

You're a different man.

I think most people would think that makes sense, right?

No, I think people live lives all the time. They live lives all the time. And then they just move on. They just move on. But I think it's a real problem now. We'll see what the community says. I mean, just come on forth. How did they deal with these regulatory genetic networks? How do they deal with this? How do they deal with this at the molecular level? How do these changes occur? How do you get body plan changes? I mean, you would think that they'd come forward. All they've got to do is just come forward and explain this thing to me, not on a podcast where nobody's going to challenge. Just to me. Explain. Go to a whiteboard, go to a blackboard, and just start drawing it out for me. Show me the chemistry. Nobody wants to do this. This is what I've challenged people before in Origin of Life. They won't go near a blackboard, won't go near it. Oh, I don't need a blackboard. I'll just explain. No, show me the science. In any other thing related to chemistry, you go to the blackboard and you draw the molecules. Of course. Show me this is how you This is our language.

This is the language we speak. And now you don't want to use the language.

No, use the language of censorship and exclusion to get you to be quiet. Again, a familiar pattern. So since you basically described an unsolved mystery. Nobody can really say how the Earth began, life originated, and we wind up with this breathtaking array of different forms of life. That's a mystery. They claim it's not, but I think you've shown that it is. What are the other things that we don't know? Because you gaze over what we know, what scientists have determined to be true. What are the big gaps? Do we know what sleep is for? That's the one I've always wondered.

Again, I'm not a biologist, but I've read a little bit about the studies that, for example, DarPA has studied this, where they tried to make it where soldiers wouldn't have to sleep. Can we make it so that they don't have to sleep? And then what happens is long term memory goes away. So a lot of our memory is strengthened when we sleep. That's why I said early on in our conversation, when I first speak to you, what You're getting this is electronic. I mean, you're getting an understanding of it electronically, and then this goes into protein synthesis. Then proteins start forming to give you the memories of what I just said. Then when you to sleep, those will start to strengthen and you'll get hardwired interconnects in your brain so that the rest of your life, you might remember this conversation that, Hey, there was this chemist that 20 years ago was telling me this, and I still remember him is telling me this. That's a hardwired interconnect in your brain that is locked in there. You lose that when you don't sleep. You lose the ability to have that. And so there are these things that strengthen in our sleep.

So there's a lot going on in our sleep. There's experts in sleep that know this much better than I do. And I've talked with them at times. It's really quite interesting how they study these brain waves and how when you start sleeping, you have all these different waves in going. But then when you sleep, everything starts going in unison and everything starts resonating in unison. The explanation of really what's happening is we may not have a detailed explanation, but...

Are there other parts of the human experience or of nature that you look at and say that we should understand that, but we don't know anything about it?

Of natural systems. I look at so many things in nature that I don't understand. The entire thing of anatomy, even the anatomy of a cell, It is where I ponder all the time. I mean, how can this be? How does this thing work? How do you build a structure like this? Anything in biology is so extraordinary. It's something we can't go near. Now, I could I were to duplicate the material of this table, and I would build it out of a composite of plastic, of a, say, a a nylon plus plus carbon nanotubes to make it really strong. So I could try to substitute it out. But to think of building the structure of this, nobody can really fathom how amazing this is. I mean, we know what it is. It's this carbohydrate strands and these alignments between them. Again, this is biology. So biology is there's a lot of mystery to biology. There are whole courses, there are whole textbooks. So we understand a lot, but there's much more that we don't understand. About even this human experience. I had seen a talk. So for example, do you know this feeling? Somebody's sitting behind you and staring at you.

Yes. And you get this feeling that somebody's staring at me. Yes. And people will explain this. Well, this has been good. These organisms get it because when prey was staring you down, you would know it and you would know to run. All right, okay, fine. You want to explain it that way, but that doesn't tell me how this is happening, how something behind my head that I cannot see, that I cannot hear, that I cannot feel. They're 20 yards behind me, but I know they're staring at me. I'm like, I want to look back at them and see what's going on. These phenomena are hard to understand. What might I be able to manipulate? Can I manipulate something with my mind? Why is it that when a child goes through something that a mother senses this? My child is struggling. There's been no word. Have they called you? No, I just know something's going on. How does a mother know this? So there's a lot of phenomena that we just don't understand. And even within the realm of science. In science, we are told that 70 to 90% of all energy and matter is dark energy and dark matter.

Meaning this. So for example, if If I think of the electromagnetic spectrum, we see in a very narrow piece of this, this is the visible spectrum. This is from 400 nanometres to about 750 nanometres. This is where we see. It's very narrow. The entire electromagnetic spectrum is much broader. It goes from gamma rays, X-rays, ultraviolet rays, and then visible where we see. Then it goes to near infrared, infrared, microwave, radio waves, all these things that we can detect, but we can't see. So when people say, Hey, I'm aware of what's going on in my world. No, you're only aware of a very narrow bit. Now we have tools that can detect all of this. So for example, I could put a radio here on the table and it turn it on and start playing. The same waves that are hitting that radio are hitting me. I don't feel them. The radio detects them. So we're able So we can detect things today that people 500 years ago couldn't detect. But there's a whole type of matter and energy that is called dark matter and dark energy that we have no ability to detect, not just with my physical body, we have no tools to detect them.

That's why it's called dark matter and dark energy. You say, well, how do you even know it's there then? Good question. And it's there by difference. So in other words, they look at the matter and energy that must formed in the creation of the universe, the big bang event. And there's a lot missing. And that is what they call dark energy and dark matter. Now, that's not to say that someday we might have a tool that we, hey, We can detect this dark matter. What to us right now we're blind to, one day we will detect. And I presume every year there's discoveries and dark energy. And maybe One day we'll be able to tap into that energy and use it as an energy form to run our world. There's lots of things as scientists we don't understand. There's far more that we don't understand than we do understand. In many ways, we don't even know how to ask the questions of why don't we understand this because we don't even know it was there. Why do we have the fine-tuning of the universe? Why are the physical constants the way they are? If you change the dipole moment of water, just a fraction, dipole moment is the amount of electron density on one side of a water molecule versus another.

If that would change just a fraction, there's no life. There's no life. Everything is finetuned for life. How do you have all these finetuning things just for life? It would make you think that someone designed this thing. Everything is finetuned for life in this universe. That we can We sit on a planet that has an atmosphere and that we can breathe, that we know no other planet is like this. That you can look up to the heavens and that you can see the sky, that we have an atmosphere that we can see through and we can see the heavens. This is a very unique place. Why? Why are the physical constants the way they are? Who made them physical constants? Why are they the same constants throughout the entire universe? Anywhere I go in the universe, the periodic table of elements is exactly the same. Why?

Are these the questions that drive you to ponder God or that strengthen your faith?

My pondering of God was much more simple to begin with. I came to know the Lord at the age of 18, so I wasn't thinking much about cellular structure and things like that. I was actually thinking a lot about women, actually, at that time.

Yeah, I remember.

But I had an experience experience. I come from a secular Jewish home. Somebody gave me a presentation of the gospel, and it hit me. Something hit me. Especially what hit me was when he had me read a verse that says, For all of sin and fall short of the glory of God. I said, I'm not a sinner. I'm not a sinner. I said, I never killed anybody. I never robbed a bank, which is very secular Jewish. We don't look at little things like sin. It's not like Christians. I've sinned every second. I mean, we're not. It was blissfully unaware of these things. Then he turned to Matthew 5: 28, and it says, I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. I was deeply impacted by that, deeply impacted. You say, why? I don't know why, but I know that when Jesus is speaking to somebody, his words have enormous power, and it just stopped me. I was addicted to pornography at that time in my life. There was no internet. This was 1977. I just found these magazines when I was working gas stations along the highway outside New York City.

My job was to clean restrooms and parking lots. I've been there. I've done that. I was addicted to pornography. I was immediately convicted of my sin. Then he took me through the gospel message, and I was thinking about that all the time. A couple of months later, I was alone in my room. I got down on my knees, and I'm not even sure why. Jews, we stand when we pray. I never got on my knees as a Jew. Christians I had seen, they sit when they pray. I got down on my knees, said, Lord, forgive me because I'm a sinner. Forgive me. It was like this piece of God just dropped on me and my life just... This burden of sin that I was carrying just just lifted, just lifted. Then all of a sudden to my right, Jesus is standing Jesus is standing, and I turned toward him. I was already on my knees. I put my face to the ground, and I just uncontrollable weeping because love was pouring out upon me, just pouring on me. There was no judgment. You'd think he'd judge me for my sin. No judgment. There was no condemnation.

There was no threat. There was nothing but love. I never had a day like that before. I never had a day like that after. That was November 7, 1977. That day was unique in my life. I don't even know how long I was there. I got up, I wiped my tears from my eyes, and I couldn't stop thinking about Jesus. Here's this Jewish kid thinking about Jesus. I had this recurring dream night after night. I'm telling people about Jesus in my dream. This is a Jewish kid telling people about Jesus in his dream. It's very odd. I didn't know that that was a prophetic dream. That was prophetic. God was showing me what my life was going to become. I'd be telling everybody about Jesus. If I go a week without leading somebody to Jesus, without leading them to faith in Christ and faith in his resurrection from the dead, That's a wasted week for me. Just through a one-on-one conversation. If I go a week, that's my whole life is telling people about Jesus. He gave me that in a dream when I was 18. I didn't tell anybody. I mean, imagine telling somebody.

They'd think I'm crazy. I didn't tell anybody what happened. Two weeks later, the guy who had shared with me several months before, he says, Jim, have you received Jesus in your heart? I said, I think I have. Why do you ask? He said, You haven't stopped smiling for weeks. You're always smiling now. You look different. Something's different about you. I said, I feel different. I said, How can I stay close to God? I've never felt like this before. I was never like this as a Jew. I was a secular Jew, I mean. I never felt close to God before. He said, If you read your Bible every day, you'll stay close to God. If you don't, you won't. I've read the Bible every day for 47 years. Started reading a little Gideon's Green, New Testament, Psalms and Proverbs. Then a couple of years later, I got a regular Bible and I started reading that. I read it from Genesis to Revelation. I'm done. I start again. I'm in no hurry. I just can spend an entire several days reading in just a few paragraphs if I feel the Lord speaking to me and just love it.

I love this word. The whole addiction to pornography, it broke that day. I had a lot of other problems that I still have. But that one he used to show me my sin, that one he used to break it, to show me his power and deliverance. He broke that. When we are delivered from sin, there's nothing like it. There's nothing like it. We're always crying out to God, Do this in my life, do that, but there's nothing like the deliverance from sin. Nothing like the deliverance from sin. So people can try to explain that one a way. And I know what happened in my life as a result.

And what does your family say?

Well, my family's Jewish, and I told them. I told them right away. I told them what happened. And my parents didn't say much. I learned much later that, of course, they weren't happy, but they thought it. My parents told me they thought it was a fad. It'll pass. I have an older brother, an older sister. They had gotten into things and they thought it'll pass. But it didn't pass. It didn't pass. My mother, and then a year and a half later, I moved into a house with nine other Christian guys, and it was owned by the pastor of a church there, the evangelical chaplain of the university. She came. She wanted to see what's going on. What is this happening. And I remember I took her to church and she was weeping the whole time. Really? Yeah. And I said, You're really touched by this. She said, Why do you think I said I was touched? I said, You were weeping the whole time. She said, I'm weeping for I'm weeping for you. I'm weeping for you. This New York Jewish mother, I'm weeping for you. I said, Why are you weeping for me? She says, That you're here.

I said, Where should I be on a Sunday afternoon? She said, How about the beach like any normal human being?

That's a mother. She sounds pretty open-minded, though. I mean, she went with you.

She went with me. I said, Why don't you read the New Testament and see what I'm into? And she did. My mother was always a big reader. She devoured books. If you saw my mother sitting in her home, she was always reading a book. She loved books. She loved books. She'd mark them, and she'd very careful reader. She read the entire New Testament, something most Christians have never done. From beginning to end, she read it.

What'd she think?

She said, I don't blame them for killing Jesus. Who does he think he is? This young guy going around, 30-year-old guy going around and telling people that your whitewashed tombs, these people are devoting their lives to helping other people. And he's telling people that your whitewashed tombs and opposing them, these people are helping everybody. And he's opposing them. She says, Of course, you're going to get yourself killed for this.

Well, she's actually getting to something deep and true.

Yeah, you get yourself killed for speaking up. Isn't that what we're talking about today? Yes. And Then I said, Okay, read the Old Testament. Because most Jews have never read the Old Testament. You think that... No, they're like Christians. They've never read their own word. And so she read the entire Old Testament from beginning to end.

That's amazing.

And I I said, So what do you think of that? She said, He warned us over and over again. He warned us. He told us this would happen to us. It's just like he told us over and over again. And she said, We deserved it. We deserved it. Now, my Jewish friends, they can't take this. I'm just telling you what she said. I didn't say it. I'm just the messenger of what she said. Now, she's gone now, so you can't come against her. But that's what she said. She said, We deserved it. She said, He told us, warned us over and over again.

Well, the prophets are very tough on their own people. I mean, they are.

Very tough.

Very tough, like way tougher than- And that's why they were killed. Exactly.

That's why they were killed. Yeah. Jesus said, in Luke 11, it said, The lawyers came to Jesus, and he says, When you speak this way about the pharisees, you offend us, too. You offend us. I mean, offense is a big thing. You offend us. Jesus didn't say, Gee, I'm sorry about that. Really, the worst thing I could have done was offend. He says, You lawyers, you are responsible for the deaths of all the prophets from Abel to Zechariah. This is like us saying from Genesis to Revelation. Because the way they order their books, this is the encompassing way. He says, You're responsible for all of their deaths, all of them. That's the way Jesus handled this. Yeah. Then he says, Which one of them didn't you kill? Yeah. He wasn't sucking up. Yeah, he wasn't sucking up. That was her response. But then she told me, She said, You're going to have a lot of trouble with your children. You're teaching them all these things, and it's so religious and everything. You're going to have a lot of trouble. My kids grew up and my daughter, my oldest daughter was 15, and she came to visit with my dad, and she went up to my daughter's room, talked to her for 2 hours.

My mother used to do a lot of volunteer work at the Mental Health Association. She was very good at talking to people, particularly young people. Young people used to love to talk to my mom. She came out after 2 hours. She said, That's some daughter you've got. She started reading the Bible again. She started reading the Bible, and she was reading the Bible, The Case for Christ, and a devotional from the Intervarsity, which I don't know where she got those. She called me one morning. We used to speak every Sunday. She called me and she said, Jimmy, you I didn't believe what happened. I said, What happened? She said, I believe Jesus is the Son of God. I said, What? She said, He's the Son of God. I was reading about the crucifixion. She said, This has to be God. Only God could go through something like this, not just a normal person. Jesus had to have been the Son of God. She was really moved. Then the next week, she calls me. She said, Jimmy, you can find any damn thing in the Bible. I said, What is it you found? She It says, Husbands love the wife of your youth.

Yeah, it's the best.

That's the best. I said, Well, tell that to dad. She had it on speakerphone. That's how my parents would only speak on speakerphone. This is a Jewish New York father. I said, Well, tell that to dad. I hear him in the background saying, I know all that already. I know all that. She came to the Lord. My dad used to take her to church. She got baptized. She went to church. Your dad took her to church? Yeah. Yes. He used to take her to church. He loved his wife. He loved his wife.

Very open-minded parents.

Very open-minded. They were good parents. I can tell. Very good parents. He took her to church. Sometimes he'd sit with her in church. Sometimes he'd drop her off, and then he'd come to pick her up. She got baptized in the Atlantic Ocean.

Then what did her friends think?

She told everybody. She didn't hide this thing. She was quite open. I mean, like I told everybody, what are they going to think? I remember my My cousin, he says, You can't do that. You're Jewish. I never thought about that. Am I allowed to do this? That's too funny. But 45 years, I prayed for my dad. I told him the gospel so many times. I read to him the entire gospel of John over a period of about five days, and he only fell asleep twice while I was reading it to him. He was a good guy. He just listened to me. He'd fall asleep sometimes and wake up and I'd begin again. But on his deathbed, I said, Dad, you knew he was dying. His mind was all there. His body was just failing him at the age 94. I said, Can I tell you again why this means so much to me, my faith? He says, I really don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it. He was being nice. That night, a Jamaican Then night, nurse came in. We hired a nurse just to sit with him all night long.

She started sharing with him. She said, There's the picture of your wife. You want to be with her? You can be with her. You can receive Jesus right now. She said, You want it? She said, He nodded. He said, Yes. So she called in another nurse. They all held hands. And they prayed with him. She said, He extended with both hands to the heavens. And it just the whole room changed. And he came to the Lord right there and the whole attitude about his life changed. My sister saw this and she was amazed. She was amazed. He died four days later. He died in the Lord for 45 years. I prayed for that man. He came to know the Lord.

That's incredible.

Nobody can tell me this doesn't work. I mean, the gospel message is not a shame. I see I say this over and over again. I told you, every week I see somebody come to the Lord, and I get involved in daily reading of the scriptures, starting in the gospel, according to John, slowly, pensively. I teach them how to read slowly each verse twice, then Now, break it up. Think about that. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. Stop. Read it again. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. Now, break it up in parts. In the beginning, in the beginning, just ponder that. That means before there was time, before was anything. In the beginning was the word. Word is information. Everything starts with information. You cannot build a cell without the informational code. Everything has to have information. There was informational code, DNA, from the acorn that started this tree that made this table. You have to have information as a prerequisite to everything. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.

That word was God. The next verse says, he was in the beginning with God. Puts a pronoun. He was in the beginning. He. The word is a he. This is an individual. You get to verse 14, it blows your mind. The word, that word that was with God and was with... The word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we saw his glory. Glory is of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. We saw him. We saw him. He became flesh. That word That information that was God took on human flesh. I mean, you see this. And what happens is the Bible says that God, no man can approach God and live. No man. And which makes sense. You look out, you see this whole universe. Look out through the James Webb telescope. You see colors everywhere. Each one of those is a galaxy. That God created the entire molecular level for us to have life. And then the atomic level from which the molecules are made from, and then the subatomic for each one of those atom, everything, that whole dimensional difference. He created the whole thing. It's no wonder why we cannot approach him.

He dwells in a light that we could never be near. But he says, I want to be with them. The Bible tells us in Hebrews 2, he took on flesh and blood because his children are of flesh and That's an amazing thing. He took on flesh and blood because we are of flesh and blood. We have cancer patients stay in our home sometimes because we live right near a big cancer center. It's too expensive to stay in a hotel for three months, six months, treatment. Sometimes a child is getting treatment, and they will lose their hair just like an adult loses their hair. The mother or the father will shave their head in solidarity with that child. The child is different. They're like, none of us have hair. We're all together. We're all together. This is what Jesus does. He took on flesh and blood because we have flesh and blood in solidarity with us. He says, If they come as an adult, they'll feel me. I'll be born among them. When one is born among us, we're not intimidated by them. We're not afraid of them. They're born among us. He's born among us.

He teaches us how to have relationship with God. He says, This is how you do it. You don't have to be a monk and go up on a mountain. You just live among your own people. Just wake up early in the morning, go off and enjoy God. Just enjoy God. And how he loved the scriptures, how he quoted the scriptures over and over again. He demonstrated it for us. This is not a shame. I see lives change all the time. I see people come to the Lord. When I get them in this, their marriages change, their children change. I see them writing to me. After a year, two years, I'm back together with my wife. My kids are turned around. A guy just wrote to me this week, I'm getting baptized with my son. You led me to the Lord one year ago. He says, Now my 13-year-old who was sitting in the same room when you talked to me over this Zoom conversation, he's getting baptized with me. It changes lives over and over again. The gospel is not a scam. This is real. This is real. It is true. Every word in the scriptures is true.

I am a public testimony of this over and over again. I see this thing being borne out.

Do you feel like something is happening in this country or world where this is accelerating? There's more awareness of this, of God?

More awareness of God? Yeah. Yeah, I think there's more awareness of God. I see something accelerating toward God. People are becoming more aware of this. Yes. Yeah, I You see that. People say, What's it like working with students today? I went to the campus when I was 18, right after my 18th birth, and I've never left. I've never left. I've been on college campuses since I was 18. So for almost 50 years, this is where I am, and I've seen students all of this time. I see the gospel works the same on students today as it ever did. I see people... I mean, there's a lot of mess in the world, but there's always been a lot of mess in the world. Yes, that's right. Ask the Koreans. Ask what it was like 70 years ago in Korea. That's right. Things were a real mess. I mean, the world has been a mess over and over again. But yeah, There's a lot of discussion about God, and I think even science is pointing us more and more to God. I mean, look at the creatures that we are. How do you build one of these?

How do you do this? How do you pull this thing off? And now we know so much more. It used to be a cell was a bunch of protoplasm. Now it's this factory. It's this factory with all these levels of systems, level of engineering in every cell. How do you do this? This is amazing.

So the more you know, the less you know, and the more it points you toward a creator.

Yeah, I think that's certainly true. The more you know, the more you realize you don't know. And for me, it points me toward a creator. Over and over again, I'm looking at this. I mean, this is all I do. I sit in my office and I just go through chemistry. I mean, over and over again, I'm just doing chemistry, reading papers and writing proposals. I mean, you stare at this, you say, God, how do you do this? I remember My son, whom you've met, he was three years old. He came running toward me. We were building a molecular brain. We were building this synthetic brain where we were taking molecules in a disoriented array and you'd get voltage pulses from the outside. You couldn't map the thing, but we just get voltage pulses from the outside to program it to do the function that we wanted it to do. We could just get little tiny things, an and gate, an or gate, little simple things. Then one day I'm sitting at the kitchen table thinking about how we're going to build this, and he comes running toward me. And I said, Lord, how do you do this?

How do you build one of these? How do you do this? There's all this motion, all this action, all this comprehension, and all this awareness, and all this consciousness. And I'm trying to build a little orgate, and I can't do it. And it's all this, how do you do this? We don't know the internet connect pattern of the molecules in our brain or of the neurons in our brain, but we use it all the time. I mean, with a computer chip, you know where every device is. Everything is perfectly placed. You better know where everything is. And here we use our brains. We don't have a map of it, and we use it all the time. It's extraordinary. I look at life on I'm like, This is amazing. Then I used to just purposely sit outside and just wait for mosquitoes to come because they're flying tiny little, tiny little brain, and there's all this coordinated flight. I'm the He's eating something that's calling them. Yes. Now, as soon as they sting, they fly away. Then more, he's called his friends. Here's a hunk of meat. That is 100% true. They're coming right back to the same place.

They're coming right back. They know where to come. He's signaling them. So there's all these sensors from very small amounts of these pheromones, very small amount of these small organic molecules have been emitted, and they have these amazing sensors. Then they converge on you. How No. How do you do that? How do you pull this thing off? I mean, you need code. You need genetic code. You need information for every one of these things. You can't tell me there is no God. You can't tell me. I mean, who should understand this better than me, really. I mean, I'm not trying to speak this proudly. It's just that I understand the molecular level as good as anyone else in the world, as good as anyone else in the world. So if anybody should be able to understand it, I should understand it. This is amazing, just amazing, this world, this creation. And so I see God and say, God, you are amazing. This is extraordinary. I mean, how you pull this thing off. And he allows us as scientists to explore in this little nano domain of his creation and just get excited about it.

I can't believe you teach at a university. It's amazing. It's wonderful. It's such a great site.

Oh, I love teaching. I love teaching even introductory organic chemistry. I like to take them just right from the beginning. It's like I take somebody to the Grand Canyon, and I've seen it many times, but they're seeing it for the first time. I just want to look at them and see like, wow, that's what it's like teaching organic chemistry for the first time. Let me show you what these organic molecules can do. Let me show you how they do this, how you can look at a structure and predict what's going to happen when you take two molecules and put them together and why they do what they do and why the reaction takes place and why it's fast or it's slow, is it explosive or do you have to heat it up? They learn all this. Why does deodorant work the way it does? Why do these chemicals do what they do? I mean, how is it? Why does wood have the structure that it has? Why do fabrics, why do you walk across a carpet and the fibers spring right back? What made them spring back? Why don't they stay down when you stepped on them?

I love to be able to explain this and just open up the world to and show them this. This, to me, is really exciting.

Professor Jim Tour, thank you very much.

Thank you.

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