Transcript of #345 Wynonna Judd - Dolly Parton, Naomi Judd's Death & Finding Her Biological Father

Wynonna Judd, welcome to the show.

I'm so excited.

Me too. I'm nervous.

I am too. What do we do now?

Well, we're going to talk about your life story. But, you know, I told you at dinner last night, I've been wanting to do this for a long time. I just never wanted to ask.

Okay.

I didn't want to go into the ask box. But, um, so this is a real honor to do.

Thank you.

We met in episode 5, in my attic, with Mike Ritland.

That's right. Holy moly. How long ago was that?

2020.

Okay. Okay. And here we are.

Here we are. Almost 7 years later.

It's about damn time.

Damn right. You ready?

Yes. I think.

Well, this is the first one of these you've ever done.

Yes.

And, um, we've got a lot to talk about, but I really am— I'm honored. We've been friends for almost 7 years now.

Mm-hmm. And, uh, family for me.

Yep, me too.

I saw them babies born, so there's that.

Lots of good stories.

Lots of good stories.

But, um, and I've learned a lot more about you since researching you for this interview.

Okay.

But, um, not that you need an introduction, but I'm gonna give you one. You ready?

Yes.

Wynonna Judd, you came up in country music alongside your mother. Naomi, is one half of the Judds. Together, you became one of the most successful duos the genre has ever seen. After 5 Grammy Awards, 9 CMAs, and 14 number 1 hits, you went on to launch a massive solo career of your own, selling millions of records and dominating the charts before being introduced into the Country Music Hall of Fame as part of the Judds in 2022. But behind the success, you've lived through some of the most incredible, difficult chapters— family struggles, the pressure of fame, your husband Cactus Mosier's life-changing accident, and the loss of your mother in 2022. More than 40 years into your career, you're still making music, still performing, and now releasing your new and probably most important album ever, The Hard Truth.

All right then.

Okay.

Did you write that?

Yep. So the hard truth, you know, from our personal conversations and from what I know, is, is a lot of the, a lot of the struggles, a lot of the hard truths of your life that maybe a lot of people don't want don't, don't know about yet. And we're going to get into all that throughout the interview. But I am curious, you know, before we get started, why did you— and I know this has been years in the making— why now?

Death. The album started before her death. It was taking place during the memorials and the funerals. And it's a 10-year project. So it started before, during, and after.

But—

and I will be 63 in May, and it's time. For me to tell my story.

Do you feel— I mean, I know it's not out there yet, but do you feel a relief?

Yes. I no longer carry the secret.

Good for you.

Yeah.

That took a lot of courage.

Took a lot of courage. And a lot of people telling me, would you have done— or asking me, would you have done this if she were alive? I think that's a great question. And on some days, probably not. But my overall life as a grandmother, I want to break the cycle more now than ever. And part of that is Letting it go. I will no longer keep secrets in this family.

Good for you.

Yeah.

You ready to get started?

Hell yeah.

Where did you grow up?

How much time do you have? Aye, aye, aye. I was born in the same hospital as my mother, right across the street from my grandmother, in Ashland, Kentucky. Boyd County in 1964. And we lived there until I was 4. Mother got thrown out of the house when she got pregnant. Back then in 1963, women didn't get pregnant without being married. So it started the chaos between the families and— She went to live with the Simonellas. My stepfather— I now know him as my stepfather— went to live with them, and I was born into complete chaos in 1964.

What's your first memory?

Being at my grandmother's house. Sitting in a high chair, eating cereal, and arguing going on. That's my first memory.

That's your first memory? Mm-hmm. Who was arguing?

Not sure. But there's just a lot of chatter and a lot of— I think children can feel it, the turmoil. It doesn't really matter who's doing it as much as just the overall sense of danger. Something's not right. And I just remember feeling like I was the center of it. And I think I was.

Like it was because of you?

Probably. A lot of it was. And I knew it. I knew it on some level. Kids just know. They sense when something's not right. And I had a sense that I was— I don't want to say not wanted, but I was definitely aware, keenly aware that I was because of it, in a sense. So you were aware of the stigma? On some level, I think I knew that I was contributing to the overall sense of disconnect that was among the family members.

How many family members?

Let's see, 2 sets of grandparents. Mom had, I would say, about 10 or 12. Overall.

How many lived under one roof?

6.

6.

6 or 7. Yeah. Wow, these are great questions. I can tell. I'm going to have to really think about it. The Simonellas and the Judds were on opposite sides of town. It was just Mamaw and Papaw in the one house at the Simonellas. And then 4 kids and 2 parents in the other house. So 8.

8?

Yeah. At all times, pretty much.

What were the living conditions like? Do you remember?

I do remember very well. It was very, very obvious to me that Mamaw and Papaw Seminola had money enough to join the country club. And Mom's side of the family, the Judds, were blue-collar workers. He owned a gas station, and she was a stay-at-home mom. So, you know, house messy, lots of chaos, and chores, and an unkempt home. Whereas Mamaw and Papaw's was spotless and—

Clean.

Everything was clean and organized.

Why did you— why do you think they allowed their granddaughter to live in that?

What do you mean?

I mean, if one was a wealthy family and one wasn't.

Hmm. I don't understand what you mean, sweetie pie.

You were living under a roof with 8 people.

No, 6 and 2. Sorry.

6 people.

6 people and then 2 people.

Did they aid? Did they help? Did the other side of the family help at all?

No.

Very different people. Extremely different. Methodist and Catholic and then Baptist. So very different households.

Gotcha.

Yeah. Yeah.

What did your mom do?

What do you mean? When she got pregnant with me?

For work.

She didn't. She was a student. She was in her senior high school year. So I still don't know the details of whether she graduated or not. She always says, I graduated into motherhood. So I don't know if she graduated or not.

She was 18 when she had you.

She was 18 years old. And so she was in her senior year of high school. And she got thrown out of the house. Nana changed the locks. Brutal. That's why I have so much heart for Mother, because Her childhood, as well as her teenage years, were lots of trauma. Lots of trauma. And getting pregnant with me was the last thing she had in mind.

What was her childhood like?

Lots of rules, lots of religion, in a sense, because we would find out later that Papaw Judd, was an alcoholic. And I remember one particular story where they would all come down to go to church and he would be sitting at the kitchen table, hunkered over, drinking a Coke, reading the paper, the Coke in the bottle, of course. And Mom thought it was because he had worked so hard the night before. And the truth was he was out all night drinking. And he was hungover. So they'd go to church and he would just stay home. So there was a lot of disconnect with Papal Judd and Nana Judd. And so Mom grew up in a very dysfunctional family. She lost her brother to Hodgkin's disease at— well, right after I was born. And that's why she got pregnant, kind of thing. We'll talk about that in a minute. But Mom grew up with piano lessons. She had everything she wanted. Yet there was a lot of disconnect between Papa Judd and Nana Judd. So there weren't a lot of kisses and hugs and I love yous.

Any abuse?

Not that I'm aware of. Verbal, perhaps, between the parents, but no, I don't think so. I haven't heard that part of the story, but I'm still investigating, so I'm still learning.

Why do you say— you mentioned a reason why she got pregnant.

Well, Papal Judd and Nana Judd were away at the hospital visiting Brian. And she was left home alone. And she invited over a boy. And they had sex on the couch in the living room, and I was conceived.

So— Who took the father role?

Ashley's biological father, with whom I thought was my father. Took the role of, uh, and was made to believe he was the father.

Was made to believe he was the father?

Correct.

Where do you guys go from here? What was the first move?

Sylmar, California. We moved out there. He got a job transfer and we moved out there, and, uh, that's when things started to really go downhill.

When was Ashley born?

She was born— I was 4 years old, so we're 4 years apart. She was born in 1968 in Sylmar, California. Therein lies the song All Downhill from Ashland, because that's kind of where it started, at the beginning of our move to California.

What do you remember about California?

Well, I remember living in a very boring neighborhood with kind of tract housing. It was— they were all very similar, pretty poor, but yet we had what we needed, certainly. But poor in a sense that I never remember going to restaurants or going anywhere ever. And Michael was Ashley's father. Michael was always gone. He was always working. So it was just the 3 of us, Mom, Ashley, and myself. Very lonely. I remember that. I remember— I think I have felt alone most of my life. And that's where it really began. I started getting to a point where I was doing chores and Starting to cook and do some things around the kitchen. Mother loved— Mother and Michael were very distracted. So I was aware then that anything I could do to get attention was necessary.

How old are you right now when you're talking about this? What age did this start?

I was about 4.

4?

Yeah, that's when Ashley was born. And I remember taking on a role with Ashley then. I've done a lot of this research about my life, and I think I was keenly aware at age 6 that I was responsible for her.

At age 6?

Mm-hmm.

What were your parents distracted doing?

He was working and gone a lot, and mother was always in the clouds. She just wasn't present emotionally. She wasn't present, really. And I think she wanted fame and fortune in a way that— it started then. She had dreams. She had dreams, ambitions. She is so beautiful, like Hollywood actress beautiful. At that point. And she is wanting more. She had had piano lessons, and I think she wanted to be an actress. That was her goal. So with that, I just watched the Jayne Mansfield documentary, and I see a lot of similarities in the two of them because they wanted more and they wanted fame. And it was going to be an interesting journey.

That's pretty ambitious for a small-town, poverty-level woman.

Totally. But she had it. Nana Judd says that Mom should have been an actress on a soap opera. And I agree.

Why is that?

Because she's so freaking dramatic. Every scene, you know, she was the centerpiece.

I know I talk a lot about preparedness on this show. Most of the time, that conversation's about what gun you're carrying, what knife you have, what your EDC is. But here's the reality: people bleed out from injuries they could have survived all the time. And it's not because nobody wanted to help them. It's because nobody had a tourniquet on them when it happened. It's in the truck. It's in a kit at home. It's somewhere other than being on your person. And that does nothing for you in a parking lot or out on a trail. That's why, if you've been watching this show for a while, you've seen me hand these, these tourniquets right here, out to guests. This is the ETQ Gen 2. from Snake Staff Systems, and it's probably the most important thing I carry every day. It's about 65% smaller than a standard tourniquet. It rides in your pocket or on a belt, and you forget it's even there. And because of how it's built, it works on smaller limbs too. That matters if you've got kids, and it matters if you're out with your dog. I think everybody should carry a tourniquet.

A bad bleed can take a life in minutes, faster than any ambulance is getting to you. And the only version of this that actually works is the one that's on you. One warning, I just want to tell you, the internet is full of cheap Chinese-made tourniquets and counterfeits. They're on all the websites, they're cheap, they look legit. They're not, and this isn't the type of thing you want to gamble with. Snake Staff is made in the USA. Get the real thing at snakestaffsystems.com. They're on Amazon now too. Get one for yourself and one for the people you love. Again, that's snakestaffsystems.com. What did she do to make these dreams come true? Was she— I mean, was she—

She was always changing her clothes. Like, if she had a t-shirt She would go and buy things to put on the t-shirt. I mean, she was very— I mean, she put shoulder pads in her pajamas. Okay? She knew how to be crafty and creative with what she did. And she always wore makeup and lashes. And she was always a pinup girl wannabe. And she was beautiful. So beautiful that men would fall over her home kind of beauty. And she knew it. And she wanted to use that to get a better life.

Was she trying out for—

Not yet. But it wouldn't be long after Sylmar that she would start to go to auditions and model. And her thing was to be on game shows. We have a lot of footage of her being a contestant.

What game shows?

I can't remember all of them, but I remember one was— was it Hollywood Squares? I think so. You might want to look in your notes. Maybe it's not there. Password. She was quite a character, Sean. She was quite a colorful character even back then.

Your biological father is Charles Jordan.

Mm-hmm.

Naomi's high school boyfriend. You didn't learn that he was your biological father for 30 years.

Everyone kept it from me.

How did you find out?

Even the people in the town. Well, as the story goes, Michael Ciminella, Ashley's biological father, decided that he was going to tell me. So he showed up at the Super Bowl. I was getting ready to perform at halftime at the Super Bowl. And he walked into the dressing room to tell me. And my manager at the time knew what was coming and sort of kept him from doing so. I guess he called him out in the hallway and said, you're not going to do this to Wynonna right before she performs at the freaking Super Bowl. And he didn't tell me. He decided not to. We rode the bus home. I woke up in the— I woke up at my home the next morning and got a phone call from a therapist that was seeing Ashley and Mom and I. Because at this point, Mom is really sick. Really sick. And we're doing a lot of family therapy. And I walk in a door to see Mom weeping and Ashley sitting next to her. And with as much prompting as possible, trying to get Mom to say something. I thought it was that she was either more sick or she was going to have to quit the music business.

Ashley blurted it out. She said, Michael Ciminella is not your biological father. And the very first comment out of my mouth was, Mom, it's okay. Talk about codependent, and that's where I learned it in a therapy session. I was pretty pissed, pretty pissed, and the fact that mom didn't do it still to this day challenges me to. Try to be better, not bitter. But I'm struggling at times with the fact that she wasn't the one that told me. Ashley knew since she was 11.

They kept it— wow.

Yeah.

Since she was 11.

The whole town knew. My manager knew. Everybody knew.

What—

I mean, why did he make the decision to try to tell you at the Super Bowl right before your performance?

I still to this day do not know. I think it's because he wanted to get back at Mom.

It sounds like—

Yeah. Why would he pick that spot? That's only the biggest show in town. So there's that. Wouldn't like, you know, let's take a walk. So yeah, it's crazy, crazy-making.

And so for the first time in your life, you realize that you have a biological father that you've never met?

Correct. And I was pregnant with my son Elijah at the time that I learned it. So talk about ironic. But yeah, I found out at 30. And I was devastated because my Mamaw and Papaw Seminole were my world. They were everything to me. My parents were so young, 17 and 18. And Mamaw and Papaw gave me the only real safe place. Of my childhood. So the fact that I'm learning that they're not biological was crushing. Just crushing.

When did— when did Michael Ciminella find out that he wasn't your— do you know?

When Mom was pregnant with Ashley.

She told him?

Mm-hmm.

Out of spite?

Mm-hmm.

And he kept that for 26 years?

Yes, sure did. But he let me know it. I just didn't know it for sure.

He treated you different?

Very much so. Even telling me that he loved Ashley more than he loved me.

Are you serious?

Mm-hmm.

How often would he say that?

When he would drink. Oh, he let me know. He let me know. And we don't speak to this day because of it, him telling me that I'm not his and he doesn't want to have anything to do with me. So it wasn't a great relationship. Very troubled. Very troubled. Alcoholic, drug addict. So not so much.

What were the first questions that went through your head about your biological father?

Where is he? Do I know him? Have I met him? Do I have any idea who this man is? And will Mamaw and Papaw still love me now that they know I know? And I would find out a story of when I was 12 that tells me I know that Mamaw loves me. And I know that Papaw loves me just as much, if not more. I was the chosen one.

What do you mean by that?

They had one son, Michael, and I was the golden child. I was the firstborn granddaughter, and that's always a very special package. And yet I was the daughter that Mamaw couldn't have. And I knew on A very deep level that I was their favorite, and they let me know it. And to this day, I am the way I am because of Mamaw and Papaw. The song Grandpa, all of it is part of one heaven-on-earth experience with 2 people that knew I wasn't biologically connected to them, but yet they worked— Overtime, making sure that I knew I was loved. So cha-ching. Yeah, I was blessed. I was broken and blessed. That's why I wrote a song on the record called Broken and Blessed, because I always felt like I didn't fit in. I always felt very different than Mom and Ashley. And I think I knew in my little spirit that I wasn't biologically Michael's, but I didn't have any proof. So I made up a lot of stories that I was different because I wasn't good enough, or it was my fault, right? I didn't complete the family. Grandchildren are supposed to come into the world and make the family better.

And instead, there were a lot of bitter people running around, fighting about when I was to visit, and just a lot of arguing. I just remember a lot of yelling and slamming a phone back in when you could hang up on somebody. A lot of that.

What was your and Ashley's relationship like?

Well, to this day, she calls me Sister Mommy, and I don't think it's for good reasons sometimes, because I think there was some resentment because I was in charge of Ashley. So there was that mother thing there that was telling her what to do.

You took on the motherly role at age—

Very early.

Age 4 to 6.

Yeah. When we did a— they call it reconstruction. When you go to rehab, you do reconstructions, and you play out scenes in your family to show the group what the dynamics were. And Ashley crawled through my legs when they asked her to be born. And Mother was just distraught because she crawled through my legs instead of hers. So that told me right there that there was some real, I'm not her favorite. Because I had— I was in charge of her. I had to keep her alive kind of thing. I just knew that she would eat because of me. We were alone a lot. We were alone a lot. Like, I was a latchkey kid. They put your house key around your neck, and you come home to an empty house with snacks and nobody there to watch you.

Did you have any fun as a kid?

I have memories of Disneyland. But otherwise, not so much. They asked me in rehab to do a letter about, sort of to myself, about what I would've changed. And I would've definitely changed the fact that I knew at 6, I think I had a meeting with myself and said, okay, kiddo, time to grow up. I think I knew at age 6 that I was responsible for somebody. So there wasn't a lot of playing and lightheartedness.

Were you ever able to meet your biological father?

No, sir.

What have you learned about him?

He was quite a hunk of hunk of burning love. I know that. Very handsome, very tall, very dark. A womanizer. He worked on the railroad. I've got his lantern. He was not present for my brother, whom I met 5 years ago. And we're very close. Uh, he and Michael didn't have a good relationship. He dropped him off at the grandparents' and was gone a lot. So both our parents were gone a lot. So we would spend our time with our grandparents. That's our memory of being a kid.

How did you find out about your brother?

I was in the Nashville airport about 6:30 in the morning, Headed for a flight, and a woman walked up to me and said, I'm your cousin. And she said, my dad and your dad are brothers. And I learned that day— that was years ago, about, I want to say, 15 or 20 years ago. And I thought, oh my God, I have a brother. But I didn't set out to meet him right away because I thought maybe, oh my God, what if he's a douche canoe? And I never went for it at that point. It didn't occur to me, you know what I mean, to reach out and make it happen. I carried it with me for a while.

How did you know the woman that came up to you in the airport?

I mean, a lot of people come up. Yeah, people come up to me all the time in airports, so I wasn't I was very open because I was standing there waiting on somebody. And she just introduced herself as Melanie. And I thought to myself, oh my God, I'm meeting another family member. And she literally lives 30 minutes from me. Just kept unfolding the story little by little, little by slow.

Did you reach out to him first?

I did not. I found out about what he looked like in the tabloids. And that propelled me into asking questions a little bit more. And starting to have a conversation with my brother. I was starting to learn just how disconnected they were. So I was scared. What if it's the same way with us? And what if he wants to just know me because I'm the girl who could sing. Right?

Mm-hmm.

So I was scared, really nervous. And then when I finally decided to go meet him, 2 weeks later, he died. So there's that. It was too late.

Your mom and Michael divorced in 1972, and you blame yourself. You were 8 years old.

Yes, I do. I was always in the middle of the fights. I even pulled them apart kind of thing. And so I was always in the middle of it. And I literally think it's my fault at the time then and still do today.

You still do today?

I still carry stuff. Let's put it that way. I still think that I was definitely One of the reasons he left, because he told me so. So there's that.

And you haven't been able to shake that?

Not really. Not really. I always wanted his attention. And I got it, but in a very mischievous and torture kind of way. He was very rough on me. Like, he pulled the car over at age 12 and said, drive. A stick shift at that. So I drove. Walk across that log over the whitewater. Swim out to the middle of the Kentucky River and check the trotline with the current. So I'm not really too sure he likes me very much.

And this was at age 4?

From 4 to as far as I can remember back to— yeah, 4, I think, is what I remember remembering.

Because he was gone by the time you got back to Kentucky, correct?

Correct.

So this would— and you left Kentucky at age 4. So that would have been at age 4, he's telling you to go?

He's telling me— well, not at that point, but when I was 10, 12. This is when we were living in Camp Wake.

So he was actually still in the picture after the divorce?

A little bit, yeah. He took off to the beach, but he was around. He was definitely around, and it was not good. In and out.

So after the divorce, what was life like? Was it better with your mom?

It was peaceful, more so.

You moved to West Hollywood?

We moved to West Hollywood, but she started to get creepy boyfriends. She was very seldom without a man. So that opened up a whole nother can of worms.

So a lot of strangers in and out of the house?

Yes. A lot of dope smoking, a lot of parties, a lot of drinking and drugging, and just— it wasn't very safe.

And you and Ashley were witness to all of this?

Correct. Mm-hmm. Wasn't my favorite. Meanwhile, we're trying to go to school, and I was in Brownies, and there was a little bit of normalcy there, but not a whole lot.

Did you have anybody to look up to? Did you have anybody to talk to?

Mm-mm.

Did anybody know what was going on?

Mm-mm.

You wouldn't tell anybody?

Mm-mm. I've been keeping secrets a long time.

Would you protect Ashley?

Yes.

How would you do that?

Well, everything from trying to get him to stop staring at us when we're in the bathtub. We could start there. I knew that that was weird, so I would say something.

Grown men would be—

Yeah.

Watching you?

I remember him laying down on top of me while we were watching TV and me feeling the boner and getting up and moving away. Oh yeah, I knew on some level that this guy was a creep. And he would beat up Mom and we would go to a motel. It was bad at times.

Holy shit.

What would you tell Ashley?

Well, I don't remember telling her anything. I think I just was there and hugging her and holding on to her, letting her know I love her. I think from a very early age, Shawn, I knew that I was also protecting mother on some level. I was responsible for her. And I felt incredibly capable by the time I was 6 because I had been doing chores as long as I can remember. You know what I mean? Doing dishes, folding towels. I have a whole chapter in my book dedicated to Mother and how she taught me how to fold perfect washcloth at age 4. I just have memory after memory of helping. You know, I had the Mama's little helper apron. And I was. I was Mama's little helper.

Was Ashley attached to you?

Very. We were very close. And I think on some level she knew that I was responsible for her too.

Did the sexual abuse get worse than that?

It would later. It would later, but not at the time that Ashley was small. But Ashley, I think, has written about it in her book. On some level, Ashley was, you know, So little and so adorable. Just the cutest thing ever. And I just loved her so much that I put her first. And Mom.

How would you put your mom first?

Being delightful and not crying or complaining. If I knew something irritated her, I would try not to do it. She was very— she had a short fuse. So I think I just parented myself, made sure that I was clean and did what I was supposed to do. And bringing her makeup so she could sit in bed and put on her makeup and— I was always doing something for her.

Sheesh.

So she just totally neglected you and Ashley?

Well, not totally, but I would say that she was so easily distracted by being the parent that the lady across the street would become more of a mother to me than my own mother kind of thing, because we were there a lot. Because she was gone to an audition or doing whatever, going out on a date.

Anything but being a mom.

For the most part. Unfortunately, we were alone a lot. Like I said, I was a latchkey kid. I felt incredibly alone. And yet she was so delightful when she was present. Again, the Mariska— I've known Mariska since I was 5. We were in kindergarten together, and we're still best friends.

Hargitay.

And I remember going over to her house for a meal kind of thing. And I have another best friend, Angelique Lamour, Louis Lamour's daughter, and going over to her house for a meal. They sat down at 6 o'clock every night and had dinner. I remember thinking, that is an incredibly big deal. I just didn't have that. And that's why I learned to cook, because it delighted Mom. And to this day, I'm a passionate cook because I love to cook. And it started really early.

What age did you start singing? What age did music become?

3.

Age 3?

Mhm. Well, I have videos to prove it. I love to sing at 3, but I didn't become a real artist until I was 8. I picked up the guitar at 8.

8 years old?

Yeah, I knew. I just knew, Sean. I knew this is my destiny. And I learned every Joni Mitchell song I could find, and music became my passion.

Is 8 when you went back to Kentucky?

Yes.

Why did you go back to Kentucky?

Well, Mom went to nursing school at Eastern Kentucky University, and she sent us to live with Michael. So we lived down on the river in a summer house with no heat. We had a wood-burning stove in the kitchen, coal stove in the kitchen, and we lived there with Michael for a bit.

So she basically struck out in LA with her auditions, correct, her ambitions to become an actress. Goes back to Kentucky to become a nurse.

Correct.

Does she actually become a nurse? Yes, she does.

She wanted to be a midwife.

And sends you and Ashley back to the man that she just divorced?

Yes.

A couple years ago?

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

How did that— I mean, how did that— what was that like for you to have to move back in with somebody that you thought hated you?

Right. It was both mortifying and magical because we lived way out in the woods. And I mean, I remember shopping at the co-op. I never remember going out to eat or going to a regular supermarket ever. We always went to the co-op. We bought everything in those big white buckets. And it was magical because he made it that way. I have 2 dreamers for parents. They made everything fun that they could. Remember the movie It's a Beautiful Life? And the father is in prison and he— I felt the same way when I saw that movie. It really struck me that both my parents were so— such dreamers that they made everything fun. So going to the co-op was fun. Living out in the middle of nowhere was fun. You know, he made it that way. They also, you know, consumed a great deal of marijuana. So there's that. So it was Ashley and me on an adventure all the time.

Did you like being away from your mother?

No.

You didn't? No.

And I didn't care for Michael. I knew on some deep, deep, deep level that he was not a fan of mine.

Did you actually— did you move back to Kentucky then, or did you go to Austin and then Vegas and then Kentucky?

That was later.

That was later?

That was after Kentucky. I was probably 15 then.

Okay.

Yeah, Camp Wig was the name of the house that we lived in. It was a little camp, summer camp spot, and we lived in the house. I'll never forget that the walls of the house didn't go to the ceiling, and it was hard to keep the heat in. We had one Fireplace and one stove in the kitchen. And that's it for heat. And it was cold. You know, 12 blankets on the bed kind of thing.

Were you guys going to school?

Mm-hmm. We took the bus. And it was about an hour ride to school. Yeah, it was a trip. Trippy time. Really trippy time. The only thing good that came of it was I became a really good guitar player.

How did that happen?

Mother got a guitar from someone after she left California. Someone gave her a guitar. And there it is in the corner, day after day. And I probably picked it up to beat Ashley with it or something. And it became my best friend. It became an appendage. I was known as the girl with a guitar.

You taught yourself how to play?

Yeah.

What kind of music would you play?

Joni Mitchell, Bonnie Raitt, anything I could get my hands on, really, because we were so poor. We didn't really have the money to buy records. So I just listened to everything I could. And Michael had a really great setup at his place because he loved music, loved the blues and rock and roll. So I got the blues and rock and roll from Michael, bluegrass, and Joni Mitchell and Bonnie Raitt. That was it. That was my everything. I knew every song. At the age of 10, I'm singing love songs. So it was pretty trippy. And when they would have parties, they would make me sing. And I was mortified.

You were mortified?

I was so shy and so backwards. But Michael would make me do it, and I'm very grateful to him for that. I would carry that on into my teenage years.

I mean, growing up in— like this, Broken family, taking care of your sister, parents aren't present. There's a lot of kids that are going through this right now.

I know that. I know that.

What kind of advice would you have for kids that are going through something similar right now?

Find something that you're so passionate about that it saves your life. Honestly, whether it's sports or anything creative, I know to this day I would not have made it if I didn't have music. I would not have made it. It kept me focused. I became a champion because I was forced to be. It was the only thing in my life that I remember thinking, I can do this. This is me, 100%.

Where do we go from here?

What do you mean?

From Kentucky.

That's a great question. I'm trying to remember. There's so much trauma, I don't remember some things. I'm having a hard time with the chronological part. I remember when I wrote my book, I had to get help with— what do we have nowadays to go and find out about ourselves?

A lot of things.

But I'm serious. If you want to know about someone famous, you can look it up. I think we went Back to California.

Marin, California.

Yeah, Marin County. Because she's still wanting to be a nurse. She went to Eastern Kentucky University in Kentucky to be a midwife, and then she decided to go back out to California. She went to visit a best friend out there, the one who sent her mailbox weed. She used to send her dope in the mail. So she went out to see her and decided, ooh, I have to live here. It was one of the richest counties in the United States kind of thing. And we went back out there.

So you— but you and your mom started kind of the very, very beginning of your singing career together. In Kentucky before you moved back to California?

Correct. Right. We had nothing.

So she had graduated nursing school.

Right.

And then what happened after that?

We were on welfare. I'll never forget that. Um, she went to go to school in Marin County. That was the bottom line. She wanted to be a nurse. That was her goal.

Well, she also obviously wanted to be— wanted to start a career with you. So how did that— I guess what I'm asking is, she showed interest in, in being, in, in being an actress, right? Did she— I mean, you obviously, uh, are very talented, right? You must have been very talented back then.

I was.

And so Did she show interest in music prior to that, or did she see you as a gateway into what she wanted?

She saw that it was a good thing. Every time we would sing together, people were mesmerized. I think by the time we go back out to California, Marin County, Mom knows. Mom knows that there's something really unique and special about the two of us singing together and started to pursue that. The acting thing had kind of come and gone. She knew that we were— that it was possible for us to make it. I think in her mind, she was very convinced that there was a place for us in the music world.

Do you remember the first time she expressed interest in what you were doing?

Well, she did when I was about 8 with a guitar. She gave me the guitar and I started to play and sing, and then she would start to harmonize, and then we would learn another song, and then another song, and then we would start singing for people when they'd come over to eat. Um, we would play and sing to anybody, right? So she was training me then. To be an artist. Here, learn this song. Let's learn a song for Nana for Mother's Day. I remember some of the first songs I learned because I remember it being a Mother's Day or Christmas. And we didn't have a lot. We had— Ashley calls it food insecurities. And so we would sing. And at Christmastime, that's what we did. We didn't have presents. So we would sing and have dinner, soup, beans, and cornbread. And that's what we did. So by the time we get to Marin, she knows— she bought me with what money she had a tape recorder.

Wow.

And that's how we learned how to— we would push play and play what we had just recorded into another tape recorder and sing harmony. We call it stacking. And that's how we made our tapes. Wow.

Did you like that?

Yeah.

Did you like that? Was this the first time you had a positive bonding experience with your mom? Mm-hmm.

That's why it was so magical. It was the one time when I felt all was right in the world.

And was Ashley a part of this?

No, she wasn't. But soon after we got to Marin, Mom started getting her lessons in the violin, and she was terrible. God love her. She couldn't play very well. And I think Mom tried. I think she tried to the best of her ability. But it didn't work out so well for Ashley. And that's when Ashley got interested in books. And Ashley started to get real independent of the two of us. Because I think on some level, she knew— That she wasn't going to be a part of the duo.

Now she felt left out.

Yeah. And she became an actress at a very early age. So Ashley was always more popular than I. And she had more— like, she was a cheerleader and president of the French club and things like that. I was always Barely hanging on in school, but I was a rock star in my mind. So Mom saw that opportunity as the duo making it in show business.

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Who did you guys— who did you give that to?

Who did you introduce it to? She was dating a guy that worked at a studio. So there's that. I think she set her sights on him. And he took us into the studio and made a recording of the two of us singing together. And it's somewhere on the internet. Somebody bought it and sent it to me. I'm still amazed. Like for Christmas or something last year, year before. And, uh, because he sold it. That's weird.

Wait, somebody gave it to you for Christmas?

The earliest recording of the Judds.

Wow.

I know.

What was it like watching that?

Well, I couldn't believe it, first of all, that he would sell it. And then I was thrilled because I thought, well, this is, this is the very first time ever hearing those notes come out of us. It was profound. And me realizing, bless your little heart, you were wanting to make it so bad. Well, I knew that I would. I knew. And everybody didn't, of course, believe me and laughed at me and said, get a real job and go to college and all that. But I was convinced I was going to make it. I knew it. And Mom knew it too, I think. She tells me so.

What happened after that?

Okay, well, yeah, you have to give me a year, dear.

What happened after the 1977 demo of the Hillbilly Boogie?

I think that's when we went to Austin. Mom got a job at a weather— as a weather girl at the local TV station. I think somehow she blew that though. But she went to Austin because she had a man there who played for a group called— well, it was— oh, hang on a second. Ray Benson, Asleep at the Wheel. Very popular group in Texas. And she had a boyfriend in that group, and we went to live with him. I slept on the couch in the— Living room, and she had relations with him for a summer, and we would go hang out at a bar and watch him play. I was 14, 15, somewhere in there.

So how did your music career start to develop? Did it start to develop in Austin?

No, I wish. Nobody knew I sang. Ray Benson, who's a very popular character— oh my God— he said he didn't know that I sang when I was there. Mom was the stage mother. convinced that we were going to make it. So she was in charge of everything. I have a story out in Marin, though. One of my first memories of being in show business, in our minds, I'm driving the '57 Chevy that she purchased for $1,800. And I had won tickets to go see Merle Haggard by mucking stalls at a nearby ranch. And she's in the back rolling a joint. With her seamed hose. I'll never forget that. And I'm driving the car at like 15 or 16, and we're going to see Merle Haggard. I had won tickets on a radio show, and they let us park next to the bus. And we went and saw the show. George Jones was opening. I remember that really well. And we ended up going on the road with Merle for 3 days.

You ended up going on the road with Merle for 3 days. How was that?

Well, let's just say I was really confused. I wasn't sure what was going on. But she stayed with him for 3 days. And we were on the road. And I remember being on a tour bus. Thinking, this is it. So by the time we leave Marin, I'm sold. I'm done with school. I'm ready to go.

That's it.

I'm done. I'm ready to go on the road. So by the time we get to Austin, I am invested in the whole idea of playing music for a living. And she knew too. I mean, she was ready. So the two of us are ripe and ready.

Wow.

Yeah.

What was Merle Haggard like?

Pretty addicted, you know, to his dope and alcohol. And they were in some kind of love affair thing going on. So I was up in the front of the bus with the driver. I think I had my first kiss on the bus. Noel Haggard. Whatever. But that was my first kiss. He was on the bus. It was Merle's son. And we went on the road, and here we are, Hillbilly Women.

Wow.

I know.

Did you ever partake?

No.

Drugs?

Alcohol?

No.

I knew, having 2 addict parents, I knew that it was dead end for me. I mean, I tried it when I was, I think, 13 one time, and it didn't work for me. And I knew that it would hurt my voice, and I wasn't going to do that. Wasn't going to stop me.

And it was a— I think I skipped over— it was a flood that actually got you guys out of Kentucky, correct?

Correct. That was one of the things that got us out.

And you lost everything?

Lost everything.

And now, did Michael stay behind in Kentucky? Yes, he did.

Yes, he stayed behind and we went out to California.

Did they get back together during the time you were in Kentucky? Do you remember?

Yes and no. They tried for a minute, and it didn't work at all. Like, he tried to choke her to death, and I pulled her off of him kind of thing.

He tried to choke her to death?

Yep.

Do you want to describe that?

Well, he just— we were meeting at the public library, and he literally put her up against One of the columns in the building. And I remember him choking her and her not being able to breathe and pulling him off of her and thinking, oh, well, this isn't going so well, this meet and greet thing. You know, where you transfer the kids? And thinking he's going to kill her at some point. They're not going to make it if they continue to work together, or so I thought. And they were very dangerous together. So I think they tried, but it didn't work.

Duh.

And I knew that they were oil and water. Too much anger there for lying to him about me. And there's a lot of resentment there, and I felt it.

So if it wasn't for that flood in Kentucky, maybe this music career never would have taken off.

I think you're right. I think you're right. I agree. I agree with that. Mom was always looking for the next best thing. The next right thing is picking something healthy, though. She would pick these things and go move. And I said in my book that I spent most of my teenage years in the back of a U-Haul on the way to some new adventure. She had quite an eye for the expensive and dreams and wanting us to have a better life. So she kept moving. I actually went to 13 different schools by the time she graduated.

Would I be wrong if I said your mom was an opportunist?

I don't think you're wrong. No. I think it was incredibly hard for her on some levels to maintain a job because she was so beautiful. A lot of sexual harassment and that kind of thing. And she did have stars in her eyes. That was very obvious to everyone.

Do you think she ever found real love? Do you think she ever experienced that?

Yes. Yes. But they weren't healthy relationships. Abuse was definitely, unfortunately, You know, wearing the sunglasses and scarves. She had some real bad experiences. Again, she was so freaking beautiful, like Hollywood actress beautiful. And she couldn't help it, even in her nursing uniform. Put some lipstick on that, and all of a sudden she looks like she's in a movie. So she had a rough time finding healthy relationships, for sure. And it cost Ashley and me a lot.

Did that abuse, did the physical abuse come to you guys too?

No, it, it did me, but that was a cousin. That would be when I was 12. I was molested by my cousin.

How did that happen?

It was a funeral, my great-grandmother, and he molested me the night before the funeral. But it was never a boyfriend. I mean, there was never any touching or anything like that. Thank God. To this day, Sean, I don't know how I wasn't abused. I was sexually harassed, but never physically, you know, raped or anything like that.

Do you think it's possible you were physically abused and you blocked it out?

Yes. Yes, I think it's possible. But I was so independent and carefree that I'm the kind of kid that, like I said, when he laid down on top of me, I got up and ran out. I was a very, you know, with-it kid. I knew what didn't feel right. But it's possible. Maybe I should be hypnotized or something.

How many things have come up from the past that you don't remember that all of a sudden click?

Hmm.

Here and there a little bit. I do so much work. I've been in therapy since I was 16. So maybe I'll look into that. Maybe I'll look into that. I'm still discovering a lot of things, right? Because I'm writing a book and I'm figuring some of this stuff out. So I'm definitely ready to take it head on.

And then you went from Austin to Vegas, correct? What was in Vegas?

We lived in a hotel room. And my mother was a secretary, and I was out of school. I had to repeat the 10th grade because of it. I lived in a hotel with nobody to tell me yes or no. And I went roller skating every day. That's what I remember doing. That and playing pinball in the employees' cafeteria. That's where we ate. I'm quite the traveling kid, aren't I?

Mm-hmm.

Oh, Lord. And she's working on the set of this TV show, and I'm living the life in Vegas.

Any music in Vegas?

Nope. I don't remember having any opportunity in Vegas, unfortunately.

How long was Vegas? Do you remember?

A couple of months.

That's it?

Yeah, a couple of months.

And from Vegas, you show up in Franklin, Tennessee?

That's right. We come to Nashville.

What brought you to Franklin?

Fame and fortune.

How did you figure out Nashville was the place to—

That's a great question. You'll have to read Mom's book, I guess, to figure that out, because I can't remember details about it. There wasn't a man. So that wasn't it. I think Mom knew that Nashville was it. I think she set her sights on Nashville. You'll have to do some investigating on that one.

And back then, Franklin was probably an affordable place to live outside of Nashville.

Right. We lived in a motel, though, for a while. And then she got us into school. I'm not sure why Franklin. Maybe she had a friend. Again, you'll have to read her book, probably. She got a job as a secretary for someone in the music business. I will give her that. I can remember that. And so she became a secretary on Music Row. So maybe that was part of it. And we were living in a motel. I remember eating at McDonald's and lots of bologna and crackers. Yeah, she went for it. She was determined. And he found out we could sing. And so I think he might have paid for a tape or two. But we decided that we wanted to be in music. Well, Mom decided, and I went with it.

But I think, didn't you—

didn't you— it was the— It was the original recording that you guys presented in California, if I'm not mistaken.

What do you mean?

You presented in California the, uh, Hillbilly Boogie. Was it that— was it that same recording that you guys have recorded yourself?

The recording of Hillbilly Boogie was California, though. That was a studio in California.

But was it that recording that you then later presented?

We might have, actually.

In Franklin?

Now that I think about it, yeah. That could be, actually. I'm not 100% sure. Because at that point, we're in the studio a little bit here and there in Nashville. So we must have gotten money from the guy that Mom worked for to make a demo kind of thing. Again, that was online. And I think I have that somewhere.

Wow.

Yeah. Yeah. We started to, you know, do things here and there. We did a morning show. I would get up at 2 in the morning. We would go do the show. We were between the farm report and the weather and then go to school. And we did that like once a week.

You went to Franklin High?

Yep, went to Franklin High.

This is 1979?

Right.

Shortly after you got kicked out of the house?

That's right.

Where did you go live?

Well, Mom was gone so much that I decided one weekend I wasn't going to stick around. So I actually went to stay with a best friend. I was supposed to stay home with Ashley and I didn't. And a friend and I Uh, went down to Atlanta, Georgia. He went down to visit somebody, and I went to see a boy that I had met at a local club. And Mom found out about it and said, don't come home. So I ended up living with his mother and cleaning houses for, like, 4 months. So I stayed down in Atlanta, Buckhead. And she sent all my stuff with her boyfriend on a bus. And I was going to just be in music and clean houses. And she ended up saying, come home. But my stepfather, Michael, said, no, you can't go back there. You're going to college.

And so now he cares all of a sudden?

Yeah.

How did he get back in the picture?

That is— well, he came to rescue me because my car broke down. And he said no. And I went and lived with him in Ocala, Florida. I will never forget it. He was in the horse business at that point. He had gotten himself involved with horses. And he said, nope, you're going to college. You're not going back there with her. Made me cut my hair, wouldn't let me wear makeup. And that's when I attempted suicide at 17 because I thought, it's over. I can't go back to Tennessee. I don't want to be here anymore. So I attempted suicide and Mom ended up taking me back.

How did you attempt suicide?

I went and got wasted at a bar. I still to this day can't believe it, that they served me. I didn't even have an ID. And I got wasted and got in a car and headed for a tree at about 70. And the tree and I didn't meet. And I ended up turning the opposite direction in the middle of the highway. To this day, I don't know how it happened. I must have spun around, and it just kept spinning. And I can't believe it, that I'm alive. And then at that point, I think he saw that I was, you know, obviously something was wrong. And he took me back to be with her. And at that point, she had met a co-manager.

Mm-hmm.

And I ended up living with him and his wife and taking care of their twins.

A co-manager?

Mm-hmm. He took us to meet a manager who had the money, but he did the work. Does that make sense? Like an investor kind of thing where he did all the street work, walking the streets and selling the product. And Ken Stiltz was our first manager. I'll never forget it. We actually got a manager— or we, she. I just sang.

And so in 1983, how did you get the RCA deal? It sounds like when things really, really turned around.

I think it's one of the most magical stories in country music history. Or I should say herstory. We went into RCA Records after hours and sang live in front of the powers that be. And got signed on the spot.

No kidding?

No kidding.

How did you get in there? Do you know?

Well, our manager, Ken Stiltz, knew somebody, and that person knew somebody, and they just worked it out, I guess. And everybody got around a table, and Mom and I walked in, and, um, of course she went to the bathroom first. We walked in, sat down, sang, left, went to a nearby restaurant and waited. And our manager walked in and said, congratulations, you are now an RCA artist.

What song did you sing?

A song that Mom wrote called Change of Heart. It's on some record somewhere. And A Mother's Smile that we ended up recording as well. And I think there was a 3rd and 4th one, but I don't remember. Those are the only 2 I remember.

But did you have any idea how big that was going to be?

No, I had no idea, Sean.

Nothing?

I had no idea. I was so backwards. I didn't— I couldn't even balance a checkbook.

Well, I mean, you're only 17.

Yeah, I'm 17. I know. And I didn't get to graduate on time because of all of the Vegas stuff. And, uh, so I was just out of high school, barely out of high school, and I got a record deal.

Like, what do you mean out of high school? It's— what do you mean out of high school? You dropped out?

No, I didn't make it because I didn't have enough credits. I had 69 on a test and I didn't get— I didn't pass the test. And so I was short one elective.

So you never graduated?

No, I did graduate. I went to summer school, but I didn't get to walk the line.

Well, you're not supposed to graduate at 17.

Well, my birthday's in May.

All right.

So there's that.

So what did your mom do when you— well, I mean, I'll bet she was ecstatic. She must have known when the manager came in and told you that RCA was going to sign you.

She called her daddy and told him, and he was like, well, you ought to be a nurse, you know, you ought to keep your day job. That didn't go so well. Everybody was terrified for us, I think.

Right?

We just got a record deal with RCA Records. That's incredible.

I would think people would be happy for you.

Not so much, though. I think, I think on some deep, deep level, Papaw Judd knew that Mom was a bit of a dreamer. And it was that whole thing of, you ought to really think about this nursing thing. have something to fall back on. You know the deal, right?

Mm-hmm.

And of course, college wasn't even an option for me. Not so much. So we were elated. It was glorious. Probably one of the happiest moments of my life at that point, right? Because I'm thinking, I finally, finally made it. And she's finally going to be proud of me.

Was she?

I think so, Sean. But I think also Mom was terrified for me.

Why is that?

Because I was such a dreamer. And I've always said this, and it's the only political statement I think I've ever made. It's been in the press about Mom being right and Ashley being left, and I'm Pentecostal. I remember saying that in an interview once. And I'm just so different than both of them. And I think Mom was terrified for me because I'm so emotional. I was told my whole life I'm too much. When you're that emotional, right? And everything comes from the heart. And I think she was really genuinely nervous for me because I wasn't as ambitious and I wasn't as disciplined. And all I wanted to do was play music. That's all I cared about. I didn't care about anything else. I didn't care about the fame part. I just didn't. Mom did. It was incredibly important to her.

How do you know that?

Because I watched her. I did her hair every night. And I saw how she worked on her wave. And she always had her script ready to go if we win an award. Me, not so much. Used to drive her crazy. We go to Donahue, she has 3 wardrobe fittings, and I show up in a bowling shirt. and end up wearing our assistant's clothes to do the show. Donahue was as popular as Oprah at the time, and she was mortified. We fought a lot about clothing. She just wanted to be famous. She really did. It was important to her, God love her. And That's what mattered. That's what mattered. Me, I just wanted to rock. That's all I cared about.

So what happened after, you know, in the days, weeks, months after you signed the RCA deal? I mean, it turned into 20 top 10s, 14 number 1s, 5 Grammys, 9 CMAs, 7 ACM And all by 1991. It's pretty fast.

First time I was ever on stage was in front of 10,000 people.

Geez.

That's crazy, right?

Yeah.

And I remember saying, I want to go home. And she said, shut— I'll never forget it. Shut up and sing. And up goes the curtain. And there we go. And from there, it was opening for George Strait. And we ended up in Vegas opening for Merle Haggard, like one of our first jobs. Now, that was—

Yeah.

Talk about irony. It was just from there, it was over. You know, people say, well, you made it so fast. It wasn't overnight. I said, no, it was over coffee break. We made it from welfare to millionaire. So yeah, it was crazy. Crazy how fast we made it.

I mean, what are you thinking from going in what sounds like dirt floor Kentucky checking trout lines at 4 years old?

I wasn't quite 4, but I was close. But you're right, going from the dirt to working for the Queen, I am on my way pretty fast.

But that's crazy.

It's No, it's insane. If you want to really ruin somebody's life, let them win the lottery at 17. Literally. And I never felt like I made it. I didn't earn it. I mean, I felt like it was handed to me. And so I did everything I could to blow it. I didn't know how to deal with money. I got 3 accountants. I didn't know how to do anything. I barely knew how to dress myself to match Mother, let alone do a set list, figure out what we're going to say on stage. Mom had all that worked out. I just knew how to play guitar and sing. That's all. If you look at the early tapes of me, VHS, I just pretty much looked like a deer in the headlights all the time. They sent me to media school. They said, you need help knowing how to do interviews. I didn't know how to sit still like I am now. I didn't know how to not roll my eyes when Mom talked because she developed this speaking voice that was very entertaining.

You could see a switch.

Yeah. Yeah, I could. And she was always such a character when she told stories. And she embellished and loved to tell a good tale. And so they said, you have to stop rolling your eyes, Wynonna. This is not going to work. So they sent me to media school. And I learned how to sit still, for the most part. But I was 17. So they sent us on a year-long tour of radio stations back before technology and cell phones and internet. We would go to 3 and 5 a day and shake and howdy and say, play our record. And we'd sing live on the radio. Did that for a year just to teach me how to be successful, how to earn my way.

Crazy.

Did you have anybody to trust? Nobody.

Not our manager. To this day, I think about Ken Stiltz, our first manager, and I can't believe it. He was just a businessman, one of 13 children trying to make it. And he was our manager. But anybody could have been our manager. A guy that owned a car could have been our manager because we were on our way. It was just that magical. Anybody who ran a business could have been our manager. It was that amazing. Really amazing. And nightmarish. I'm 17, and I don't even know how to live on my own.

Are you living on your own at this point? I mean, you've pretty much been living on your own your entire life up to this point.

Okay, that's a good point.

But...

I mean, I don't know how to work credit. Not really. And I'm going to be famous? Yeah, okay, let's do that. Nuts. It's nuts what we did. It's the American dream. But at what cost?

Did you miss the simplicity?

Yes. I missed my Mamaw and I missed my Aunt Pauline. I spent summers at Aunt Pauline's. She had no running water. She cooked on a wood-burn stove. And I patterned my farm after Aunt Pauline because she had the 40 animals and lived off the land. They had an outhouse. I don't have an outhouse. But I missed family, friends, boyfriend. I had a boyfriend at 18. That was my first love. And he broke up with me when my song went number 1 because it was like, you're too famous. Bye. So I did. I missed out on a lot of stuff that college kids get to go through. But I was opening for Merle Haggard in Caesars Palace in Vegas.

Geez.

Crazy. So who wouldn't want to do that, right? But I'm not sure. I'm not even sure what day it is. It's so hectic. But we did it. We were at one time supporting 40 families.

What do you mean by that, supporting 40 families?

Our payroll. 40 families depended on us, and from band and crew and just everybody. 40 people on the payroll. And that's in the beginning. So, go figure.

That is a wild change in lifestyle at such a rapid pace.

Oh my goodness, you're right. I think about it sometimes. I'll lay in bed and just kind of go over a few of these details and think to myself, how did I make it through all that? Honestly, like, I know people think money makes you happy, but it doesn't. It gives you choices. And I was such a people pleaser and so into making sure Mom was happy with me. That was my barometer. If I was number one on the charts, it didn't matter if Mom was pissed at me. Making sure she was happy with me, making sure that I did what I was supposed to do, that's all I cared about. The rest of it was out of my hands. We had people for that. Right. So You're right, though. It was a— I went from— the very first thing I did was buy land, though. I'm really proud to say that I bought 500 acres out in Leapers Fork. And that was one of the first things I did was buy land. And to this day, it's the best decision I ever made. So thank God I did that.

You did that around age 17?

No, I did it In 1990 when I was— can't remember how old I was. But I bought a house when I was 20-something. And that was my investment and lived there for what, 5 years, 8 years, something like that. It gets a little muddy around that area.

Why do you say that?

Because there was just so much—

It was just going so fast?

Yeah, it's a little scary. I have to ask my assistant for dates because I was so busy and so living in the fast lane.

What was your— I mean, I'm just curious, what was your relationship with your mom like off stage back then?

She was very strict.

Strict as in how?

Very hard on me, like military. Very military. She was managing a rock star with a lot of verbal abuse and unfortunately, a lot of criticism. Like, it needs to be better. It needs to be— it was never good enough. Seldom good enough. Except for when I would sing. The rest of it was, you know, you're not as smart as Ashley, or you're not as good at this as Ashley, or you need to try that again. You need to be better. You need to be on time. You need to be this. You need to be that. You need to make sure you always match my clothes.

Just strict.

Really strict about me. And I was—

So she wouldn't actually help you. She would just criticize you.

I had people for that, right? So she was—

So she's expecting you to manage your people. So you had different people. She had her people. You had your people. Who got you these people? Where did they come from?

My manager was a lot of it. Yeah, my manager. But I remember having, for instance, a house and not knowing how to even deal with a mortgage because I don't know what a mortgage is. I didn't know what a mortgage was.

Where did your mom live?

She— we always lived separate, so we had our own places. She lived, what, 45 minutes from me? I pretty much got left alone at that point, for sure. I was on my own.

What was Ashley doing at the time?

Well, by the time we made it, she was making it. So Ashley and I separated at 14 and 18. Actually, 17 and 13. And we were apart a lot more than we were ever together. And she went and lived with different people. And Michael, her dad, she lived with Nana Judd. And And she went to college. She's written her own book. So you have to look at her book to see some of those dates because I can't remember. I was too absorbed in the music business.

Did you miss her?

I did. I did. It was tragic being separated like that.

Did you guys keep in touch?

Yes, very much so. Very much so. And I missed her terribly and felt a lot of guilt. For leaving her. That was definitely a hard, solid, you know, goodbye for a long period of time. 6 months at a time kind of thing. It was really tough for me because I felt so responsible for her. But that's showbiz, baby.

Is there anything you would have done different?

No, because I wanted to sing. I wanted to sing. That's all I cared about. The rest was BS, but I wanted to sing, and that's all that mattered to me.

How fast after you got the RCA deal did you hit number 1, your first number 1?

Good question. You'll have to look it up. Look on Google.

What did it feel like?

OMG, it was glorious. I was in heaven. Heaven on earth, my dear. It was even better than I thought. I didn't know we were going to make it as big as we did. I really didn't. I knew we were going to make it. I just didn't know on what level. But we were crushing it, winning awards, touring, opening for the best artists there are. The '80s were so great. '80s and '90s were fabulous.

What do you mean opening for the best artists? You were the best artists.

But we only had like 8 songs.

I mean, yeah, but I mean, geez.

But I'm talking about like George Strait.

20 top 10s, 14 number 1s, 5 Grammys, 9 CMAs. 7 ACMs.

Right. We were it, though. You're right. We were it. But we didn't have a lot of songs because we were new. Does that make sense?

It does.

And women weren't as popular as closers as men were back then. It was very unusual to have a man opening for a woman. So that was also at play.

Who did you like opening for?

Ah, George Strait, hands down. Greatest artist of all time. To this day, he's the king. They call him the king.

What was he like?

Excellent. Absolutely excellent. He's still one of my favorite people on the planet. And, um, getting to play for that many people in arenas You know, you're talking 25,000, 30,000 people. That was big back then, especially back then. Nowadays they're doing stadiums. But back then an arena was like, it doesn't get any better than this.

I mean, when you started getting— when this started happening to you, did you have anybody take you under their wing? Anybody that you looked up to?

Not really. Well, Loretta Lynn. Dolly Parton and Tammy Wynette were my 3 go-tos. Pretty great.

Dolly Parton?

Yeah.

You and her had a rapport?

She was really good to me. I didn't know— I wasn't allowed to be out much away from Mom. She kept close tabs on me. But I got advice and would ask questions. I had a great group of people around me that I thought, and unfortunately not so much, but at the time I had— Ken had kind of his whole family working for us.

Hmm.

Hmm. Interesting.

Yeah.

Right? So I didn't have really anybody. I had— I think I had a lawyer. Yeah, I did. I had a lawyer. That was good. But I didn't even know what questions to ask. So I wasn't really sure. And being 18, I was so clueless, Jon. I was such a dreamer. I had no concept of how to talk about percentages or none of that. None of that. So It's a miracle we made it past a certain point. Really is. You hear about all the nightmares. We had some ourselves. Just being hired for cheaper than we were.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And so Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton, and who— sorry, who was the other one?

Tammy Wynette gave me advice about how to be a woman in this business, enough to where they were trying to help me. But again, I didn't really have too many people to talk to, and I was too busy trying to make it.

And they were too.

Trying to keep up with Mom was— I still have a lot of trauma about wardrobe fittings. To this day, when I go to wardrobe fittings, thank God I have Tiffany, because I have her to be patient with me because I just have a hard time sitting still or standing still. And I mean, just the hair, the makeup. Look, look at our record, you know, covers, and we still call them LPs. Cassettes were out. And we were selling better than anybody and traveling on a bus. Oh, another thing, sharing a bus with your mother. I don't recommend it. That was a whole nother level of, what am I doing? But I did. She talked me into a lot. Why didn't I get my own bus? That's a really good question, right? But I shared a bus with her because I didn't—

Or you went to a family member or your manager.

Right. I wish now I had my own bus. But I was so green and so naive. Oh, so naive. I think about it today and just go, how— thank you, Lord, for protecting me. Thank you, Lord, for protecting me. Really, honestly, could have been so much worse.

Dolly Parton just passed a few weeks ago. Do you remember any specific advice that she told you, or any, any stories that stick out in your mind?

Well, stories, uh, when Mom died, she called my voicemail and left a beautiful message and came and showed up for me at her memorial. And we shared a dressing room, and I saw the tattoo— a tattoo, not the— and people love it when I say that. And she looked right into my eyes and she said, I love you very much. And I said, I love you too, Dolly. And then she went out and spoke. very eloquently and sang I Will Always Love You right next to me, holding my hand. But she showed up for me. And you never forget who's there, right? And it was pretty special, not just because she was the star. I've known Dolly since I was 17, so I've known her my whole career. But for her to show up like that without even asking, you know— Was pretty awesome. Same thing with Loretta. I used to go visit Loretta and sit and talk to her. Last time I saw her, she gave me the shirt off her back, mailed it to my house. And Tammy used to cook for me on her bus. That was pretty great. So I had some really great elders in the business, right, that really loved me and saw me as so young that Bless her heart.

They had to know that I was in for quite a ride.

Who do you see today that reminds you of you?

That's a great question. I would say Lainey Wilson, just because she is so young at heart, and she seems very carefree to me. She's probably the closest thing I can think of anyway. But nowadays, there are so many more choices than we had.

What do you mean by that?

Well, saying no. I don't ever remember saying no.

Do you think they know it's okay to say no?

I think Laney is much more advanced than I was. I didn't know no was a complete sentence. Right? So I was like, gotta get it done, gotta say yes, gotta say yes, gotta people-please, gotta get them, you know, wanting more, gotta take that gig, make hay while the sun shines.

When did you learn no was a complete sentence? When did you learn it was okay to turn it down? Last year?

Last year, probably. No, seriously, it's taken me 60 years, probably when I turned 60. I'll be 63 in May, probably 60. When I got my granddaughter and started to raise her, I had to teach her by example. No is a complete sentence. I'm a people pleaser, perfectionist. That's another thing I've been healing from— perfectionism— as long as I can remember. I know you know that one well, right?

It's a rough way to live.

It is a rough way to live. That I know for a fact.

For a fact. But it also makes you the best at what you do.

There's that. And I'm grateful for that. But you're right. There's one— in one of the songs, I say, everything is not okay. I'm okay with everything. If you'll just let me do my thing, I'll get on just fine. But there's a cost to what fine brings.

That's a damn good point. Did you ever interact with Johnny Cash?

Yes.

How was that?

He was very dear to me.

He was?

He was the— he's the king. He's the real true king. He was very great with me and very patient and hugged me every time I saw him. He and June were always together. I never remember them being apart. And I thought he was The greatest artist of all time. Just sitting next to him was— talk about charisma. Oh my God, they don't make them like that anymore. They just don't. He was the man.

Do you remember the first time you met him?

Probably in an award show. I don't remember the first time. I don't. But CMA was always You know, brought everybody together. So it was probably at an award show.

Any good stories?

I was kept very sheltered, very sheltered by my manager and my mom. I don't have any great— Why? Why?

So they would not let you interact with all these people?

I think they were afraid I was going to become unraveled.

Do you think your mom was scared that you were going to leave her and go off on your own?

I do.

When did you get the first sense of that?

When I was 3.

When you were 3?

I don't know. Probably when I was young. Probably when I was a teenager. When I got— when I got a record deal, she made sure that we shared a room. A hotel room. Always shared a hotel room. Now think about that for a minute. I'm 18. And it's not just to save money. It's to keep an eye on me. I think she was afraid I was going to get pregnant like she did. I'm sure she worried about all that as a mom. But as an artist, I think she was genuinely— Worried about you. Scared to death for me. Maybe it was her way of protecting me. I don't know.

You think it was protecting you or protecting herself?

I think both. I think both. I was very naive, like I said, and she was probably really scared. On some level, she knew that there was a lot of temptation out there. So she wanted to keep me straight.

Were you falling for any of the temptation?

No, because I had been molested at 12. I was very— if you look at all the clothes, I'm Amish. Like, everything's up to here and down to here. And I was very modest and very shy. So that wasn't an issue. Drugs and alcohol were not an issue. And I didn't care about boys, not really, because Ew. They were in my way. I wanted to rock. Give me a band, give me my own bus, and let me rock. I wanted to be Joni Mitchell, Bonnie Raitt. I wanted to be that. That was my dream. And country music was great for me because I could still be that, but it was definitely under a different package, label, because we were a duo. I wasn't a solo artist. I don't think I would have made it, though, if it was just me.

You don't think you would have made it if it was just you?

No, I don't think I had the ambition. I don't think I had the ambition, but maybe I did. I had a great work ethic.

I think it's pretty obvious that you did.

Yeah. Like the military, I saw it as a show up and be the best. I mean, we did the Super Bowl. We did the World Series. We did All these things and made it. So I was good at that to a certain degree. But managing my personal life, not so much.

I mean, what are you thinking? The Super Bowl, the World Series, the Grammys, the number one hits. Like, is that even— and it's going so fast.

No, I don't think I could handle it.

Is it registering? Did you think it was a fluke? Did it even— A little bit.

In the beginning, I think I did, Sean. I think I was a little bit like, well, this is going to be fun while it lasts. Sure. I was 18. Think about it. It's like college. You think you're going to be in college for a long time, but not so much the music business because it moves so fast. Moves so incredibly fast. And I was so out of my element. I mean, first time ever on stage, 10,000 people. That's kind of odd. Usually people start out in a bar and, you know, there's time. We didn't take much time to go straight to the top. So there's that.

Let's take a break.

Let's take a break.

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Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Do you ever wonder what it takes to make an episode of the Sean Ryan Show? In this exclusive studio tour, I'm taking you behind the scenes for an in-depth look at every part of the operation, from the editing room in the main studio to the spaces where we film range day content and more. You'll see how the show comes together, meet some of the people behind it, and get a closer look at the work that happens off camera. When you become a paid member of the SRS Patreon Community, you get more than just the podcast. Watch new episodes early alongside other members. Join monthly live shows with guest Q&As and submit questions just like you see on the show for upcoming guests on the Protector tier. You'll also unlock exclusive range day videos, behind-the-scenes content, and premium ambience videos that you're not gonna find anywhere else. Join the Patreon community today and get access to the full experience. So on the break, I was talking to your team, your husband out there, and they— I think you're being a little humble. Maybe it hasn't registered, but sounds like a lot of these people opened for you guys back in the day.

I'm being humble.

Yeah.

But that's my memory. Okay, gotcha. So what were they saying?

They said entire careers have been built off opening for the Judds.

Okay.

So if you're not going to throw it in there, then I'll throw it in there.

Dang.

Okay.

Dang. Dang.

So was it 1990, 1991? Yeah. 1991, December 4th, your farewell tour ends. Why were you guys on a farewell tour already?

Because my mother needed to say goodbye to the fans.

To the fans?

It was really important to her. It was her— it became her light therapy, her chemo. And it was her chance to do the wave bye. And love people. And I think it literally prolonged her lifespan by 3 to 5 years. I think it gave her an incredible shot in the arm every night to be able to stand there and say goodbye.

Why was she saying goodbye, though?

Well, because she was so sick, and she got Hep C, and she was so sick. like almost carry her to the stage sick. And yet she got on that stage and twirled like she wasn't. And it was glorious. Of course, I was like, what are we doing? Why is this happening? Why do we have to do this in the first place? I don't want to say goodbye every day. You know what I mean? Because I was getting ready to come out on my own, and I was going through my transition.

You knew you were going to come out on your own?

Well, there had been discussions about it, and I was in denial that it was even happening. There are, what, 6 stages of grief? I was still stuck in the denial part. I thought it would go on. And we even talked about adding shows and making it— prolonging it longer than initially discussed.

Where were the discussions happening?

In meetings, in hotel rooms, she would be in bed and we would all gather around her and talk about it like you talk about, you know, having surgery. It was almost like— she was so sick though. That's the thing. I remember doing her hair, getting her dressed. We'd get a golf cart to take her from the bus to the stage. And she wanted to keep going. I think it was part of That whole thing of, I just don't want it to end. And it kept getting pushed and pushed and pushed.

So she was aware that you were going to go off onto your own?

Yes.

Was she happy about that?

No.

Why?

Because she didn't want me to leave her. It was very painful.

But she couldn't go on?

Correct. She just couldn't. She couldn't physically do it. She could hear, but it didn't work that way with her body.

Was she happy for you?

Yes. Yes and no. I think it was painful for her because she would come by the studio and sit there and listen to me sing, and she would cry. And I think that part was— oh, it was agonizing for her to sit there and listen to me sing a new track on a new record. I mean, it's got to be strange for her seeing me go on without her.

And Ashley's actress career had started prior to this too?

Yes, she had been doing great movies.

So were you guys able to— I mean, were you guys able to relate to each other about what was happening? I mean, her career as an actress has taken off, your career as a musician's taking off. It's all new to you. You both came from the same But not really.

I think we were so separated. Ashley was doing her thing in Hollywood, Hollyweird. And I was doing my thing. And we were very apart. So we would see each other at events and try to discuss it. But it was so obvious that Mom wasn't able to continue. And it was like, You know, the elephant in the room kind of thing.

Well, I'm not talking about your mom anymore. I'm talking about—

Oh, okay.

I'm talking about, you know, right before the break we were talking about, okay, dealing with, with everything that's happening— the fame, the record deal, the money, the managers, the people around you, okay, and how to handle that. It At a young— such a young age, 17 years old to, uh, whatever, whatever, 27. We're at now 27, 28 years old.

That's all.

And so, you know, that's when I was asking if you two— and her career started early too.

Gotcha.

So were you guys able to relate with each other? Did that create any, any type of a bond, you know, with you and your sister?

That's a great question. Yes and no, because we're in such different worlds. Yet we both knew that it was coming to the end. Ashley was doing so well. I mean, she was kicking butt, and I was too. So we had that in common. And I remember one time going to one of Ashley's events and her asking me to take a step back because I was— I was like, up, all up in her face and messing with her hair and everything. And she was like, take a step back, sister. You're too much. It was like, but I'm so proud. And it was all so weird, though. I felt like I was in a movie myself. Ashley's doing so well. I'm doing so well. Mom's not. And it was just odd. It was an odd time. And we didn't see each other very much. We've been apart so much. That's the thing. Always doing this adventure, that adventure. Traveling, traveling, traveling.

How was it for you leaving your mom? Did you feel a responsibility to—

Oh my God.

Did you feel like you had a responsibility to take a step back and take care of your mom?

Yes. I have a story about being at Harris Teeter in Brentwood, Tennessee, with my shopping cart, buying groceries. And a guy walks up to me and says, do you think you can make it without your mother? And I was so horrified. I looked at him and I left my cart and I went and got in the car and cried like a baby, wondering, is this what everybody's thinking? Because this is such an odd question. Do I think I can make it without my mother? Well, I don't know. I have no idea if I can make it without her. But I'm gonna sure as hell try. My life depends on it. It's part of my destiny, you know, to see if I can make it without Mom. And yet, there was a part of me that felt guilt for going on without her. Absolutely. Am I going to still sing the songs? Stuff like that. So it was very strange, very surreal.

What was the first thing you did on your own?

Went and got a tattoo and bought a Harley.

You went and got a tattoo and a Harley?

Yeah.

What's the tattoo of?

It's a cross. And then I got Mom put here with wings, and she wouldn't speak to me for 2 weeks. So I went and got it removed. And then I probably bought something. I don't know. Other than that, I just made a record and made history.

Well, that's what I meant.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah.

I made history with my record. And it was wonderful. And I felt like, oh my God, I don't have to worry after all.

Did you— I mean, before, before we get into the success of your solo career, did you, did you, did you know you were going to make it? Did you have a lot of self-doubt?

I had total self-doubt. I was probably the most insecure person walking around in my family because the Judds were so powerful together. We made so many choices that were about the two of us. And now all of a sudden, it's just me. I felt like the glass was half empty, for sure. Again, Mother was the brains of the operation, and I was the voice in terms of the way the records were made and yada, yada, yada. And she made me realize just how much I needed her and depended on her. I literally don't know that I made decisions on my own for years. It was always a collective thing, partnership.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't ever remember going in and saying, this is the way it's going to be. That never existed. So for me to go all of a sudden into this solo way of thinking and doing was as foreign to me as anything in my life.

What was your first record solo?

She Is His Only Need. Are you talking about the title of the record or the single?

The record.

The record was just self-titled. And it was, uh, I think it sold 5 million. Back then, that was huge. Nowadays, that's a sneeze.

Solo debut enters at number 1, sells 5 million-plus copies recorded. First 3 singles all hit number 1.

Right.

I was flying right off the bat.

I was flying.

Did that register?

It did. It did.

That gave you the confidence that you needed.

It did. It didn't give me the confidence. I wasn't quite there yet because I kept going back to Mom and getting her approval. I was pretty codependent to the point of self-sabotage, I'm sure. I just— you have to remember something. I mean, from the time I can remember, it was Mom and me. And The two of us, you know, she had separated from Michael enough to where it was just the two of us. And I can't ever remember it not being the two of us. And so for me, I wasn't ready to let go yet. She was my queen. And it's like, you know, the kid who lives in the basement. I was that kid. Everything—

I mean, it's so interesting that you're saying that at the beginning of the interview. If you, if you, if you would ask me right now, at the beginning of— from the beginning of the interview, would have said it was you and Ashley from the very beginning. It was you from the very beginning, right? You were home alone. You were—

Now that part's true. But I'm talking about from a spiritual, emotional standpoint. Mom had a way of making me feel like she knew me better than I knew myself. Don't know how she did it, but she did it. I would even ask her about boys, you know, do you like this guy? And if she didn't like him, I would almost break up with him. I was so codependent to the point where I don't know that I bought a car without her approval.

Holy shit.

Yeah.

That's a lot of control.

I know that. I know that now. I wanted her approval so desperately. It was important to me on some deep level of, okay, I'm okay. I'm good. I'm good. She thinks I'm good. I can do this. I think too, she would always be hard on me in terms of, Okay, so you sold 5 million records of this record, you're gonna have to sell 10 the next time. You know what I mean? It was always push.

She would say that?

Push, push, push. Yeah. So it was like, okay, what's next?

So in retrospect now, I mean, actually, how would you feel when she would say that? I mean, you just—

record-breaking album. Oh my God, so much pressure.

Did that anger you?

Yes. Because it was never enough. It was never enough. It was, what's the next thing? Some people live their whole lives, as you know, well, that was great. Now what? It was always that way in the music business. So what if I sold 5 million? I've got to sell 6 million next time, or 10. That's the way it works, unfortunately.

Why do you think— what was her motivation for doing that?

That is a great question. I don't know the answer to that.

Was it to make you feel insignificant? Insignificant? Was it an undertone of, uh, maybe jealousy that You had sold 5 million records without her, that you had 3 number 1 singles, that you— nobody had ever sold 5 million-plus records.

I think—

Or was it—

She never wanted me to forget where I came from. I think, too, she wanted me to know that my life began with the Judds and not to forget that, not to let the songs go, for instance. And if I did the songs, I had to do them like the '80s records, that kind of thing, to honor the past. Maybe she was stuck in the past a little bit. I don't know that I know the answer to that.

Hmm.

I'll do some investigating a little bit on myself to answer that question, but I don't know that she ever truly could give up the Judds. I think it was that important to her. So maybe on some level she didn't want it to succeed. She never said it. I never heard those words.

Was that a big driver for you?

What?

The fact that she would say that next time you got to sell $10 million.

Yes, it made me work harder and smarter. I worked harder and smarter. I don't ever remember sitting around doing nothing. I was always trying to come up with the next big thing. You can't live that way, though, right? What a way to live if you're going to do that. So I was always trying to figure out a way to outdo The last thing. A bigger, better, faster, more. We're all that way a little bit, aren't we?

I am that way.

Yeah. I think I am too.

Sometimes I wish I wasn't, but—

I think we all are.

It also makes me who I am.

Well, part of being a champion is Making your time faster. So what if you break the world record? I've got to do it faster next time. Why not?

No time to celebrate the wins.

I don't ever remember having parties for that. I always remember getting on with the next thing. I wasted a lot of time doing that. Not waste, but I've spent a lot of time Moving on to the next thing and not celebrating the moment. I missed out on that. So I regret that.

Well, when you did hit 3 singles that hit number 1, you sold 5 million records. I mean, how did that Because you realized it was you. Yes, I did. Was that freeing?

Absolutely. The challenge was to stay humble and not na na na na na do that whole thing. The challenge was to stay humble and realize. I didn't get as far as I've gotten without her and the past Judd's success. So I worked really hard at staying true to who I am. And I remember going into therapy sessions going, I'm really proud of myself, but yet I realized that I wouldn't be here without my mother. So it was a whole mind game at times. I had to really work hard at staying— Because I wanted to party and have fun and celebrate my success. But it was like, yeah, but yeah, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for all that. So don't forget where you come from. Don't forget. So it was really important to her that I did that. Really important to her.

And you got pregnant with your first son right around this time frame?

I sure did. It was in all the tabloids. Unwed mother. Yeah, it was intense for sure. I think the tabloids loved me as much as they loved Oprah. I think we would even have conversations at times about how much we were in the tabloids, and she would beat me by 2 or 3 articles. Otherwise, we were pretty much neck and neck. I was in pretty much every week.

Wow.

Yeah. It got heavy there for a minute.

Did you take a break?

Hell no. I was right back out there. Doing what I do, getting more stories. I've got them somewhere, and they take up a whole trunkload. Listen, I was too busy trying to get ahead to sit around and mope. I don't ever remember having a pity party. I was always going and blowing. That's what you did. So that was a failure. Let's move on to the next thing. And I was determined to prove to my mother I could make it on my own because I hadn't gone to college. I hadn't done some of the things that kids do where they can prove it in my mind personally. So I did it professionally. Does that make sense?

Mm-hmm.

My personal life was— I didn't really date. I don't ever remember going, I'm going to make a Conscious effort to make my life so good personally. It was all professional. Because that's what mattered to Mom too, was she did that. She sold out that show. Even if I was a knucklehead in her mind, I could still sell out a show. That was important to me. So that was the currency with which I—

Did having a son change the way you think about the world at all?

Oh, absolutely.

It was the most important piece of my life. And I didn't know it at first. I mean, when I found out about Elijah, I was overjoyed because I always wanted a child. My Mamaw said, that I would talk about having children when I was a little girl. I've always wanted to be a mother. That was one of the things that I was— I got to do this. I don't know about you as a parent, but I want a child. And when I found out about Elijah, it was so important to me that I bought a Doppler. And hearing that sound every night kept me going. You bought a Doppler, right?

Sure did.

Right? And you hear that sound and it's like, yes, yes, I've got this going on for me. And it was huge. I remember it so clearly, laying in bed at night going, oh my God, this is the best thing ever. And loving every second. And made everything else worthwhile.

Did that change your career at all?

I think it did.

Having a baby?

I think it did. And then I got pregnant again. They're 18 months apart. So I got pregnant right after that. And I think it did. I remember going into a meeting at MCA after My second child was born. And I remember the meeting being one of those, I've got to not prove myself, that's not the right word, but I've got to redeem myself as a worker. And the very first thing, I'll never forget this, walking into a boardroom meeting with all the suits saying, I'd like to start out this meeting by letting everyone know that I have an IUD.

A what?

You don't know what an IUD is?

I don't.

It's birth control, you knucklehead.

Okay.

And I started the meeting out like that, and everybody just looked at me like— and I was like, you guys are all wondering if I'm going to have another baby. So let's just get that out there. And Everyone laughed and it became one of those, can you believe she said that? But that's how determined I was to show myself that I— and prove to everybody that I could do it with 2 children. And I did. But it took a minute because everybody was like, is she going to marry the guy? Is she going to become a family person? Is she going to stay home and make bread? Or is she going to go back out there and rock? So for me, it was, I'm going to go back out there and rock. So I raised them on the road. I was with them all the time, and I made sure that we were one little tight tribe unit. And we did it. It's a miracle. I had 2 babies on a tour bus and a nanny, and we did it.

What does that look like? 2 babies on a tour bus touring around the US as Probably, I mean, one of the most famous country music artists in the world.

It looks like me in stage clothes with crap on it, sometimes my hair in a ponytail because I didn't have time to do it any other way, and lots of tears, lots of tears because I didn't really have a lot of support from the Father. So I was definitely on my own, like a pioneer woman on a Conestoga wagon, rolling across the West, going West, rolling across the country, making a place for us. Every day it was making a place for me and the children so that I could rock and do my thing.

You grew up hard.

Mm-hmm.

When you became a mother for the first time, did you think about how you grew up and how you wanted to make sure that never happened to them?

Yes. Yes. I made time for them. How much did you think about that? Mm-hmm?

How much did you think about that?

All the time. It was my number one, actually. I cared more about that than I did the show because I knew I could do the show. I knew that I had that down. You know, like, okay, I've got that market cornered and I need to be the best mother I can be and be present. So I was either with them all day and then I'd go on stage and the nanny would take over. And I would be able to get a standing ovation and go, yes, I did this. I did both. You know what I mean? It was really important to me, Sean, to be the best mother I could be because I was distracted by the success and the meet and greets and the— but I remember leaving meet and greets because Grace would be having a meltdown or Elijah would be having a fever. And leaving a meet and greet to go You know, be a mom and check in. I was a really good mom. I was very present and very determined to show them that I loved them and they weren't in my way. I think most of my life I felt in the way, like I was intruding a little bit, and I just didn't want them to feel that way.

I wanted to break that cycle of, hurry up, hurry up, we got to go, we got to go, we got to go. Because my mama always had time for me. Time is the greatest gift you can give someone. And she never— I don't ever remember her saying, hurry up, or, you're in my way, get out of the way. The other day I was with Kalia and she goes, Noni, would you put your phone down and be with me? I don't ever remember that happening with me. So I wanted both Grace and Elijah to know that they were not in the way.

Do you think that came across?

Not with Grace. Grace was very jealous of my career because it took me away from her enough to where she was not satisfied. I think because she's the second-born, I think it was important to her that I even spend more time with her. Because I had that with Elijah for a minute. He was more at peace about it. She was the one that wanted to sleep with me, wanted my attention 24/7. So that was painful. That was hard. I was really hard on myself about that.

Why did you decide to marry the father?

Pressure from the public, as well as my family. And I wanted it so bad that I put on blinders. I was just determined to make it work.

You wanted a family.

I wanted a family. More than anything else in this world. I wanted a family. I knew he wasn't right for me.

How did you know?

I just did. Just the whole thing leading up to both babies being born. I just was— it was really me and the nanny a lot of the time.

Where was he?

Working, doing his thing. And he didn't love the road, and he didn't come out on the road a lot. And when he did, we would fight. about the rules, 'cause on the road, I'm the boss. You know, he would call me Miss Judd, and that would frustrate me. So... I just thought, this is the right thing to do to even the score, make him feel more a part of the family, yada, yada, yada. And plus, I felt a lot of pressure to do the right thing. Mm-hmm. For religious reasons, sure, I'll go there. But I also wanted it to work. I thought there was a part of me that thought if you love more, it heals and it works. I really want to give this the best shot it can, can get. And I had everything. I had everything. So there's a part of me that thought, I'm not going to not do this right. But I did feel pressure, especially from my mom. Do the right thing. You can't get away with this twice, she would say. I think she's right. What is that thing? Forgive me. Something about once, twice, shame on me kind of thing.

I can't remember.

Was she happy that you had kids?

Yes. I think she was also very mortified that my timing was where it was. It wasn't the right thing to do at the time in terms of— I had so much opportunity, so much opportunity. And I was like, Oh, I'm going to be gone for a minute. No. What is it? 2 steps forward, 3 steps back. I'd worked so damn hard at getting where I was. You're going to lose your place in line. And I did. I did. I remember it. Getting knocked out of the spot. So that's the price you pay when you have kids. When you run a business, think about it. I lost my spot. And that's okay, though. I remember cleaning a toilet and looking up at the TV and seeing Shania Twain with her beautiful figure and her Hair blowing in the wind, literally on a video, and going, who is that? And Shania Twain was up and coming. And I remember thinking, oh crap, literally, this is what I'm up against in terms of the new generation of up-and-comings. And thinking to myself, okay, this is where it changes. That horse, that outside horse is edging towards the spot of number 1.

And I can't run as fast, literally, because of my staples from the C-section. And cleaning toilets was not my favorite moment to see that. It's like one of those, I'll never forget it, ever. Oh, life is so humbling.

Looking back, would you change anything?

No, no, I really wouldn't, because all the pain, all the gain was so worth it. It made me tougher. And it made me just tough and tender. I wanted to be smarter, better, more— was great and all of that, but I wanted to be smarter. And I thought, you know what, this teaches me what I don't want.

And this is right around the time that you also found out that you had a biological father.

That's right. Let's add that to The story. Right. That was during that time. I was so terrified to even meet him. What if it— I've heard enough stories to where it just— so I let it go. Call somebody, do something about it. Don't wait. That's my advice to anyone out there who's Not picking up the phone for whatever reason— pride, ego— do it. Do it.

What's the name of the song on your new album?

The Girl Who Could Sing. Was I ever really your daughter or just a girl who could sing?

Is that the one question you would ask him if he was still here?

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And why didn't you come for me? Because I was ready to love you, as in the song. I was ready to love you, but you were ready to leave, is what it says. So I have some questions. Sure. There's a lot of mystery around it still to this day.

So how long were you married?

To Arch? Not long, actually. 2 years. I want to say 2. It felt like 10.

How did you meet him?

I was in first class on a flight to Nashville, and he was with another woman coming back from an event. And he asked me— he came and gave me his card and said, I'm putting together a charity ride with Alan Jackson, and I'd love for you to ride your Harley in the event, or in the Harley ride. And I said, sure. And I went out with him and thought he was independently wealthy and successful, and he didn't need to be Mr. Judd and all that crap. crap. And it was the exact opposite. So that was a mistake for me to think that he was that independent because he wanted so badly to have children and a family too. And I thought, oh, we have that in common and it's perfect. And not so much.

What ended that?

Betrayal. And that was one of those, oh, I should have seen it. Everyone else did. Everyone else did. And I just wouldn't see it, that he wasn't loyal to me in that way that you need someone to be trustworthy. And, um, It just wasn't a good experience. I write about it in my book, so I don't want to rehash it too much. But I learned so much from that. I learned so much for that. Quit getting lost in these relationships. Quit giving up yourself for this. Save some for yourself. Work on yourself. I always was such a people pleaser, Sean, that I just lost me. And that was one of those experiences.

In 2005, your memoir came out, Coming Home to Myself: Public Triumph Versus Private Struggles with Money, Food, Self-Worth, and Relationships. Uh, yep.

Yeah, I went through a darkness pretty bad, as do we all, and it was really sucky. What do you want to know?

I want to know, you know, with all the success that you had amassed All the number ones, all the career with the Judds. I mean, it was just a hockey stick, just— and then there was still a massive emptiness.

Quite an emptiness.

What could have filled that void?

I thought food could help. Food and alcohol and money and everything. I thought I had everything.

You had everything.

I had everything. I was addicted to the word more. And if I just have more food and more this and more cars, and I started collecting cars, for God's sake, old beautiful cars. But still, I was like, Why do you need another car? What's the point? Only God can fill that hole. I finally get it. Okay, I get it, God. I get it now. I get it. But then I thought it was all this other stuff and the number ones and the big parties and even the adoration from the fans. I counted on that more organically, thank God, and authentically. But I still loved a standing ovation. I wasn't satisfied unless I got one. That's how hard I worked.

You became addicted to the fame.

No, not the fame. I— the—

The praise.

The praise. And the, she is such a nice person. I would stay 10 minutes extra even though I didn't have it. So it was more of the— again, the people pleasing. Fame is a great first seat in the restaurant. It's wonderful. It gets you things like not having to stand in line at Disney World. Who doesn't love that? But I wasn't addicted like Mom was in that respect. Um, but I did love people pleasing because I had everything. You have to remember, I never Came up in bars. I never had to work the crappy shows where people are throwing beer bottles. It was handed to me almost on a silver platter. So I didn't feel like I had earned it. Does that make sense? To a certain degree. It's like you Navy SEALs. People don't really understand What happens and what has to take place for you to earn that. All they see is all the TikToks where everybody's fabulous, but nobody really knows what you go through. So I felt like people are going to assume that I made it because of my mother, because I had a manager, because I had a record label.

So I had to prove myself. I had to give it back. I remember sending people to rehab, buying people cars, Harleys, because I felt like I needed to give it away. My accountant said, I'm going to fire you. And they had an intervention because they said, you're doing everything you can to get rid of it. You're getting rid of everything that you have little by little. And I can't work with you and watch you do that. So I quit.

Geez.

Here's a card if you want to go to rehab, financial rehab. Go for it because you're losing your finances. I mean, I bought my mother the tour bus we had for Christmas. That's half a million. At the time, what am I doing? So it can sit in her driveway and she could play cards on it. What am I doing? I bought it for sentimental reasons, but still, buy some jewelry, something else. And So yeah, I wanted to do the right thing for the right reasons, but I missed the whole message. The message was, I'm going to go back to welfare if I don't stop.

It was that bad?

Yeah. They literally took my land and made a map and put 2010, 2020, And they would put little zigzag lines in it and they would cut it off saying, if you spend the way you're spending now, and they would cut off more land. And then I got down to 20 acres. And then there was none. Oh, it was deep. It was real. It was real.

And then in 2003, you married your bodyguard.

Mm-hmm. Just like the movie. It's the only person I trusted. You know how that works? You have one person you trust with your life. And we had been best friends for 10 years, never saw him as a guy. Other than a guy in a suit. But I trusted him. He was the only one.

He was the only person.

Only person besides my nanny that I really felt like I could trust for the right reasons. I adore him. He just happened to be an alcoholic. So there's that. So it didn't work.

That's why you left him?

Mm-hmm.

Is that the only reason?

No, that's not the only reason. And it's painful to talk about, so I'm trying to figure out if I'm ready, and I'm not sure.

That's okay.

Yeah. But there will come a time, maybe the book, we'll see. But no, that wasn't the only reason. There was a lot of dysfunction among our family members. And I feel responsible for my part. Of course, I've been working on it for years to let go of the fact that I married an alcoholic. And that was really hard. 15 years is a long time. Just about killed me.

What was 15 years?

The relationship.

You were with him for 15 years?

Yeah. Yeah. We worked together 10 before we kissed. So it was a long and painful process. And boy, did I learn a lot of, again, what I don't want.

Not long after that, you met your brother Michael.

Good question. You're gonna have to do the math for me because I'm not sure. I couldn't tell you. There's so much going on there, trauma. I don't remember.

Well, let's skip to something good.

Okay.

How did you meet Cactus?

I was 26. He had a band called Highway 101, and they opened for the Judds on a tour. And I fell in love with him at first sight. He had a Colorado waterfall mullet. And I've known him since I was 26, and we were friends. We would see each other at CMA and all the events. And during the tour, he asked me if I wanted to go to Mayo with him accompanying me. And I said, no, I need to go take care of my mom. So he went his way and I went my way. And we had kids and got married and then started running into each other again. And here we are. I trust him with my life.

How'd he ask you to marry him?

On a horse. Of course, he's a Colorado cowboy. And then she took the biggest pee in the history of mankind. It was very, very sexy. Um, and we got married on the farm with just the kids.

Nice.

Small weddings are good, especially after you have 2 big ones that cost you and you pay for it. But we're together still, and it's a miracle because I am not the easiest person to love. But I keep trying. I keep on showing up.

Why do you say that?

Just because of my history and everything in my life and all the ups and downs and the dysfunction in my family and the trauma. It's not easy, right? I'm the storm. He's the calm. We don't ever fight. And if we do, it's me against myself. And he just sits there and waits for me to get done. So it's just not easy being me, Sean, because I've had so much hurt. And again, Broken and Blessed is on the record, and it says I'm somewhere between hell and hallelujah.

How long was it after you guys got married that the accident happened?

3 months.

That's it?

That's it.

3 months?

We had 3 months. I was not prepared. Yep.

Do you want to describe that day?

One of the most beautiful days, especially out There. Crispy, crispy air. Beautiful sky. Oh my God, the weather was fabulous. And we were going to do a show that night. And my dear friend from William Morris suggests that we go on a ride. And I didn't want to go because I wanted to rest and be ready for the show. But I felt peer pressure and got on somebody else's bike. Don't ever borrow someone else's bike. That's one of my rules. And I knew it, but I did it anyway. And he got on his bike and I got on mine, and we rode out to see Crazy Horse, and it was in South Dakota. And we were on our way back from that. And we came around a really good, easy curve, and it was beautiful. And all of a sudden, a couple of hundred yards away, I see a car and a truck, and I see Cactus on his bike. I've always been in the front, but I was in the back, and he was in front of me messing around on his bike and back and forth across the lane. And he kept going into oncoming traffic.

And I thought, I'm not really sure what's going on here. And he hit a vehicle going 60, 65 head-on. I was right behind him on the bike.

You saw it happen?

Yeah, sure did. Ran back to him and his leg was gone and he was bleeding out. And I knew we had minutes. And we're in the middle of nowhere, by the way. There's not even a house in sight. And I got down on my hands and knees, tried to take off his glove, and he said, nope, don't take my glove off. That ended up being the worst injury, believe it or not. He said the leg got cut off and that's that. But the hand, and with him being a drummer— Oh, my God. was shattered inside the glove. If I had taken that glove off, his hand would have gone into many pieces. And next thing I know, there's a guy down taking care of him. And it turns out that he was fishing down the road and had turned right instead of left. And there he was, and he saved his life. It's a crazy story. There's a documentary called The Road Back. That explains the story. That's pretty great.

Wow.

And we bonded for life. Makes or breaks you.

3 months after you get married.

Yep. I'm giving him a bath or a shower and cleaning his wounds every day. I'm a nurse. So you do what you got to do, man.

Well, let's take a quick break and we'll bring him on.

Okay.

How's that?

Good luck.

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Good God, I'm a little— like I said, being in here Knowing you all this time, and, uh, it's a little auspicious just sitting in these chairs and talking to you.

It's come a long way since the attic, huh?

Since your house?

Yeah.

Hell, your attic.

Yep, the attic.

I gotta stretch. I just gotta stretch a little bit. Oh my God.

This is—

this is how you— this is how you go in a bar and go, if I can do this, will you buy me another one? Here.

That's incredible.

Yeah, there we go. This is my on-the-road, get into an Uber and go, here, will you hold this?

And the driver's like, what was going on? Oh my God.

So there's, you know, there's a few little fun parts of having one leg, and that's about the last of it.

But holy shit. So I want to hear the first time you met Wynonna.

Do you remember it?

Oh yeah.

It would've been 1987. Oh no, it would've been 1986. So I'm in Nashville coming from living in California at that point. And I go to this bar, which used to be downtown Nashville, had, you know, 3 bars maybe that were cooler. And I'm sitting there with my partner, this guy Curtis Stone. We were the Highway 101 to, you know, beautiful blonde men, boys at that point. And I— she was sitting down at a table next to us with her then assistant, who I went on to be friends with later. But— and I came in, I was like, whoa. And she was looking great, and she was just— but she came into the room and it was like, oh shit, the star is here, you know? It was just like the whole atmosphere changed. Everybody's looking, talking. I mean, by '87, they were She was mammoth in terms of stardom and presence and all that, all that hair. And so I'm sitting there kind of going, hmm, probably '86, or yeah, maybe even late '85, but probably '86. And I go, hmm, she should probably know me. And so— I lean over. I remember she was right here.

I tapped her on the back. And I said, hey, hi, I'm a Cactus, you know, from Highway 101. You know, we're kind of a big deal. You probably know me. And she turned around and she looked at me and she goes, oh, hi. And then she just turned back around and didn't say another word. Wasn't a conversation starter. Nothing. Just like shut me down. I'm like, okay, I wonder if everybody saw that because that was a total fail. And I just thought, well, okay. And because I remember looking at Curtis going, oh, there's the baby Judd. You know, it was like, you know, Mom, and then there was this girl. And I'd heard about her because in California I was in the studio music business mostly before the Highway 101 thing had happened and kind of took off. And I was like, remember, even out there, people like me, I wasn't listening to country music. I was, you know, making rock music and new wave music and all this crazy stuff in studios. And I'm like, guys would come up to me and go, we'd just be having coffee and sitting at the getting ready for a session to start.

And somebody would go, have you heard this chick that sings with her mom? And almost everybody who would be 1,000 miles from country music were going, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

My God, she's amazing. What a voice. And so I was aware of her, obviously, through that, even though I hadn't been listening to know what they were doing or who they were. But you would just see a little thing somewhere and go, oh my God, she can sing. you know. And so I knew about her, but that was the very first face-to-face. And subsequently then we would come here because as soon as the Highway thing kind of started, immediately we were winning the awards, going to the ACM, CMAs, all the same junk, Grammys. And just somehow, you know, we would seemingly kind of connect there. I'd just see her and go, hey, you You remember me? I'm Cactus from Highway 101. She'd go, oh, hi. It was the same thing. And, but I was always just going, this is, you know, this is that girl. So we did see each other a little. And then from '87 to '88, we'd, we were out on the road all the time with a lot of the same people, George Strait or Randy Travis or somebody. And then we started headlining our own things. Then in 1989, they call and said, do you guys want to go out and do the whole year?

This was like probably the last year of the Judds or went into '90, I guess, for them. But you want this whole tour? We were like, absolutely. And that's when I finally had more than an oh, hello conversation with her during that tour. And it was kind of wild because I was— and I remember telling old friends, I had these old cowboy friends who still remind me of this back in Colorado, even where I'm from, you know, team ropers and rodeo people. And, and they always said, you know, you always told us that's the coolest chick I've ever met. And it was, because in '89 we would go do a show, and then I finally coaxed her, you know, to talk more. And then we'd go, there's this weird bar, you know, across the tracks where they keep, you know, open after midnight or whatever it was in whatever town. I go, you want to go out there? You know, and, and I always had a crew.

After midnight? You mean like after 5 AM?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm trying to be really kind to the, you know, for the kids watching.

You're not kidding anybody.

Yeah. And we would go out. And like I said, she, you know, and it was just friends. And I do remember then, because she used to give me grief when we got married. Why didn't we get married sooner or whatever? And of course, we'd had these whole other lives. I'm going, well, what I remember was in '89, we'd sit at a table. And I would go, in these 2 hours we were here, You got 10, you know, people asking for an autograph. I only got 5. I said, that would have been a problem back in those years. We would have had some kind of ego problem. But she just was fun and was the only girl probably in my whole lifetime I'd ever met who you go all the same jokes I was making with the band on the bus, you know, horribly caustic or horribly whatever. And she had a comeback. She always had a smartass comeback for everything. And I'm like, wow, she's just like hanging out with one of my buddies. You know, she's just got it. She's like, cool. And that was my early day impressions. And that whole year, '89, we did that a lot.

Her bunch of goons and my bunch of goons, and we would just go out and just have a blast. I remember one night we were in Omaha, Nebraska, and it did close at midnight. And we crossed the river in Council Bluffs, Iowa. You can go over there and it's open till like whenever. There's a beer bar across there on the river. There's just cars and it's like out of a movie, cars and people everywhere drinking and just wild. But there's a bar. And we— when they heard she was coming for sure, we'd probably played that arena in Omaha and they're like, oh, don't worry, we got a table. And we went in that bar, hung out till 3. And then it was like, well, we better get back. Buses are going to roll or whatever. And the bands all got in whatever kind of cars and left. And it was me and Wayne. We'd come over there in a limo together with probably some other people. And so she goes, well, let's go back in the limo. You don't have to go back with the band or whatever. I mean, we got in that limo and we got right to the bridge and it quit.

It dies. And the driver's out going, ah. I'm sorry, guys. I don't know. We're kind of up on the start of the bridge and we both had drinks we'd brought from that bar. And I remember a state trooper pulls up, blue lights, comes up and he taps on the glass and I roll down the window and he goes, hey, you guys. We're like, hey, officer, whatever. And he goes, your driver's saying this car's not going anywhere, but I don't mind taking you back across the bridge to back to your hotels. And I remember looking at Wynonna, is that cool? You know, because I felt like I had kind of like the, you know, the package with the president. I'm going, oh my God, there's a lot of people wondering where she is. And I'm the one responsible here. And I go, well, and she goes, oh yeah, that's fine. And then I remember looking at the state trooper and I go, can we bring these? And he goes, oh, what the heck? Come on. So we got into the state trooper car, got on the bridge. And I go, sir, seems to me like the only thing appropriate for you having Wynonna and, you know, myself in this car and we're would be lights and siren.

Holy shit.

Okay.

You know, and he turns on and the lights are flashing. We pulled into the hotel. The buses are out there parked, you know, just rumbling, sitting there. And here comes the state trooper car, lights and everything. And I go, no, you got to hit that siren again. So he starts bringing the siren and we both pop out and the bands are in the windows going, what the hell are you guys doing? So there's a longer answer. But the first one was not very exciting because she just blew me off. Right on, man.

Well, let's move into the motorcycle.

Yeah.

So you guys get married, 3 months later, motorcycle accident.

And we had dated for about 2 years, you know, basically, and just, you know, continuing our friendship, which was awesome. Which is a great thing to not just jump into a heavy relationship or whatnot. She was divorced. I was in the whole same process, and so it was just very slow. But so we finally reached that point. I asked her to marry me on the horse. My horse did take a big pee when that when when it was all done, which is part of the greatness of the whole day. And and a friend of mine who who at that point in time was this I was going to this church, and this guy. He had been involved in my son's school. He was just this great friend, man, a guy named George Grant. And he was very wise in my view. And prior to that, not too long, I'd pulled up to a gas pump and he was right there. And he looked at me and we were talking a little bit and he goes, Cactus, so how's it going with Wynonna? And I said, well, you know, George, I'm just taking it slow and, you know, just trying to be wise about everything.

And he goes, he looked right at me and he goes, You know, I've watched you for 7 years try and do the right thing always, and just always be moving through it slowly. He goes, "I'm gonna say tell you something: don't let a good one get away." And that was like my moment of going, "Whoa!" Because I thought he would say the exact opposite, like, "Sure, take it slow and be you know." I mean, it's still been we'd been dating for a year and a half or something. And I went, "Wow." Well, if George says that, that's kind of big. There maybe is my God moment of going, hmm, Lord, give me a sign. And then going, well, besides George, what's another sign? I didn't want to go there. So shortly thereafter, I thought, okay, I better figure this out and make some moves. So we did that, ask her. And during that time, I always made the joke. I said, you know, honey, when we were dating, you'd go skiing, ride horses, anything I threw at you, you know. Well, she had been a Harley girl always. And that was a very well-known thing.

I had ridden dirt bikes as a kid out on a ranch in Colorado chasing cows or going for fun. I hadn't ridden a dirt bike probably in 20 years, 25 years, then maybe more. But I'm thinking, once upon a time, we went to Colorado, we rented a couple Harleys and You know, I didn't love the fact even sitting at a red light and you look over and there's a bumper of a big-ass pickup next to you and you're going, that's right here in my body. It's really— wow. But it was fine. And I felt like, yeah, I still get this. I still remember how this works. But I didn't know anything that I didn't know, which was everything about big bikes like that. So we get to The show she talked about, we'd played in Denver the night before and had a bunch of high school friends and people come out, family. And then we were going up there to Deadwood. And so we'd had a gathering kind of later on the bus that night. I mean, we still pulled out at midnight, I'm sure, but we were just both tired. And we'd started this band together probably 6, 7 months before that, or maybe longer.

I had produced some stuff, one song for a movie called Act of Valor, big military kind of document, docudrama. And that's kind of how I got the keys to even make music with her. And, um, but the agents were there, all this. We get to Deadwood and we're both kind of waking up on the bus going, I don't know, how do you feel? And she's like, I'm just tired. And I'm like, yeah. And sure as heck, this friend of ours gets on the bus who's the head of William Morris, and he goes, hey guys, Perfect day, got the weather, we got bikes. I've got you guys a couple of bikes. There's 8 of us, and then you 2, I think roughly. And I remember going out behind the bus even kind of like going, Lord, is this— am I supposed to? And I probably knew the answer was no, if I really go back and get honest about that moment, because I remember standing behind the bus, just looking at the sky and kind of going, hmm, sure be easy just to say no. But It's— he's up here and he's telling us all the right things, why we should do this.

So we decided, yeah, we didn't have— we didn't have helmets and goggles. So we had to go to a shop even in town and do that first. So it was a bit of a process. And then I'm going, okay, I guess we're going. And I remember going out to the front of this hotel we were parked behind. And there they were all lined up. And they go, now here's yours, you know, Cactus, you can have this one. This is a Big full dresser Harley, windshield, stereo, saddlebags. She had one very similar, I'm sure. And you're just like, oh, I can't stop the train. And we got on those bikes and we literally drove 4 minutes and we were on this little kind of windy coming out of Deadwood, climbing up this little short hill. And I remember going, You know, you're kind of getting used to it, but it's also, you're only going 30. And I remember taking a left turn around a curve, and then I was taking the right turn to come back around to this other little short turn. And that bike just kind of went out over the double yellow line.

And there was a hill coming right around. And I remember thinking right then, man, if a car had come around that turn, they would have hit me. Because I could not make it turn to the right, and it certainly alarmed me. And I just didn't know enough to go, "Oh, I should. This should be a real red flag. I need to talk to somebody and see what's going on." And it I had known that the couple that these two bikes were borrowed from, they were both on brand new Harleys that they'd had like 6 months. So I am sure those two bikes had sat in a garage. probably with no attention. And so, you know, now that I have hindsight, it's really easy to go, that would have been the smartest thing I could have ever done. But then you— I got around the turns, turns, and then you get on straightaways the rest of the hour and a half of this first leg of this drive. We were going to go up and see Crazy Horse and maybe even go on further. But then you get going 60 miles an hour. And they had said— one guy had said, hey, by the way, there's been a bunch of deer sightings.

So Just so you know, look out for deer and just be aware. And so I kept going, okay, she didn't hear that. I need to, you know, cowboy up and I'll be the one in front and just make sure if I see something, I'll slow down and she'll know, you know, because we were always together. But then eventually you get on these big straightaways and we'd be side by side or we'd be whatever. Mostly single file, probably, because it's all 2-lane roads, small mountainous roads. But you're going 60, and a turn is basically— you just kind of lean the bike barely, and it does what you want it to do. There was never a really extreme besides that first little S-turn. And I'm going, wow, wow, this is kind of great. It's kind of like being horseback. You're just wind in your face. She and I were the only 2 on the whole ride that had a helmet, which I praise God every day for that. And I had gloves that I had, they were just my own leather gloves, but it was just kind of magical and perfect. And you're just going, this is pretty much a dream, 'cause you're just enjoying the environment.

And we went about an hour and a half and stopped in a little town called Hill City, South Dakota, and had lunch. And, you know, for the next 5 weeks laying in hospitals or at home going, why did I not say something to somebody when we're sitting there at this table? Could have just gone, hey, was it weird that that bike wouldn't turn that right turn coming around those little S-turns? And, you know, see if somebody said, wait, really? Well, maybe we should check the front tire. But I didn't, because it just was gone after the hour of Perfect riding, and so sit there lunch, and then we decide okay what's about fifteen miles more to the Crazy Horse Monument up here in the hills, and you know past gas station gas station air pump air pump just didn't, and it didn't even. But the sad thing was it's like if I'd have known. what I was doing, because I talked to one of our road crew guys. He would post this in the next 6 months. I'm like, man, Albert, I'm glad you weren't on this bike. And he goes, not me. I would have known what was wrong.

He goes, I knew. I'm a biker. You were just stupid to be on there.

Shit.

Yeah.

Shit.

So, um, I'm gonna sip on my sports drink. We continue on those 15 miles. We get to this whole state park kind of thing where you pull in to see the Crazy Horse Monument. And we parked those bikes and we start walking. And I had done the kickstand and all the stuff. But we start walking up to— this was the first, you know, sign, walking up there to watch, to look at the Crazy Horse thing. And we hear— and everybody looks back and my bike had fallen over. Now, I still to this moment know that it didn't have anything to do with what happened, but it did crack the windshield because it just kind of dumped over and we all picked it back up after we looked at them. Well, I think we went back and did that first. Then went and looked at Crazy Horse and everybody's going, well, this sucks, dude. Your windshield's cracked and that's probably gonna just flip and flop. And so the decision was, you got goggles, we're gonna have to crack this thing off. So the first thing that was horrible when I got back to it was immediately the wind is just hitting you like a torrent.

And I'm like going, damn, I'm gonna have to ride this thing. We had decided at that point We got a show in 5 hours. Going on to where we were going to go, another point on this trip, makes no sense. We're going to be getting back showtime. So we start heading back. And literally, which in my mind, I have replayed, you know, not 1, not 2, but maybe 10 million times, the next 6 minutes. We pulled out of there and that's when we got on the blacktop again. And that's when I really— the wind was just killing me and I'm like going, oh my God, this is going to be a horrible hour and a half or 2 back to south, back to Deadwood. But it's all I can do. But I— and we started there and Lyle was in front of me and I'm going, oh, she didn't remember. She never heard about the deer and I never told her. So I passed her, and it was never very far separate. I could always hear her. Those bikes are loud, which is the thing. And I'm ahead of her, and I'm just going, oh my God, this is brutal with this wind.

But the tire, the S-turns, the not turning was completely gone from my mind. And I'm like, wow. All I cared about was this wind was going to, you know, beat the shit out of me for an hour and a half, an hour and 2 hours. But I come around her and we just started this. And this is another thing that was just— it's like a tattoo in my mind, that long— starting this long, slow, big, slow downhill right turn. And, and we'd probably been 6 minutes after we left the monument. And we're coming down that hill, and, and it's a pretty good grade, really. And so I'm coming down there, that just had passed her, and she's here, and I'm listening. And all of a sudden, I'm going, oh, I gotta start following this turn. And there's one in the mountain roads like that, there's one lane going downhill. And oddly, a lot of that stuff is like concrete, not even blacktop. It's more like because of the weather changes and all the stuff. And it also has all these little cracks in it that are for so wind— I mean, so wind— so rain, snow, all the elements will move out of it so it doesn't stay wet.

And I start turning and I can see probably 300 yards ahead of me. So there's that lane, sorry. And then there's 2 lanes going up the hill, because uphill has a passing lane. We have a double yellow line, there's no barrier. And so I'm, I'm just trying to make this turn, and it starts to kind of feel like it's sliding. And I'm going, wait. And oddly, your brain is such a weird tool. But And I'm lifelong snow skier. And I'm going, I feel like I just hit some snow or some ice or something wet, because it's starting to feel like it's sliding. It's not turning. It's— and I'm just scrolling through what in the world. And I can hear her right here. And I'm thinking, oh my God, what? And then I went, oh, this is what it did 2 and a half hours ago. It will not make a right turn, and I also felt very unstable. I'm going, oh my God! It—I don't know what it's doing. It doesn't feel solid under me. I'm thinking, is it going to go out from under me? And I'm then I'm realizing I can't. I don't know how to lay a bike down.

I've heard bikers talk about it forever. Like, last thing I know how to do is lay this, you know, however many thousand pound. beast on its side and slide. Not that I even want to be down there. And she's right here. And I can even see in my mind, what if we get tangled up and it becomes this huge thing, both of us? And I'm going, oh my God, I don't know what I'm supposed to do here. And I'm definitely going, okay, Lord, you take the wheel. I don't know what's happening. And I saw this 300 yards ahead of me, or 350, is a red mid-'90s Ford dually. I can still see it plain as day, square body. And I'm thinking, oh God, I've got 300 yards and I have this extra passing lane and I have time for this to do what it did before, to come back in here. And but I'm also going, I can't just apply brakes, shut it down. Do something to help myself because of her. I don't know what's going to happen. It's going to be worse for probably both of us. And then I'm thinking, oh my God, I just got to ride this and wait for it to do the same move.

And then we were probably going 60. And I've real— I'll get into that, but I revisited the site of this wreck and I last year, and I was like, people are flying, they're going 70. And so I see that truck coming at me. Now it's probably 150 yards. And about that time, maybe even less, I'm still going, okay. And I'm probably trying to lean. I'm just doing stuff besides just trying to shut it down with the brakes. About that time, a little silver car pops out from behind that truck. He wants to pass him. And that guy's just going to floor it to get up the hill and get back in the right lane. And I'm like, oh, man, that was my space. There was my space to live or wait for this thing to correct itself. And it was just this— about that time, things start getting really slow. I mean, it kind of starts to process in a very weird way. And I'm thinking, oh my God, hmm, maybe, maybe, and I had this guttural feeling that possibly if I just did this, it would turn. And I, so I looked, and I remember looking and there's all those evergreens and quaky trees out there.

And but there were spaces, but then I realized, and you just see weeds and junk, but I realized it just drops off. And I have no clue how far down there it goes. I'm going that fast, you know, even if I'm going 55 at that point or whatever, 60. And I'm like, that was my option, but that doesn't look good either. And then you look back ahead and now this truck's— the truck's probably 70 yards and this car is coming around him, but just staying right there. And they're both just coming at me so quickly and the time is just— Elapsing to where there's— I don't know what— there's no answer. I'm just here. And I remember thinking kind of in a weird diagram in my brain, I'm going, I'm in this position, I'm going 60 miles an hour, and I'm just flying through the air. This bike doesn't have anything to do with anything anymore. It's uncontrollable. I'm in the air flying, and cars are coming at me going that fast. And then it really just hit a slow motion movie. The car is 20 yards, 15. And Amy, I'm going, hmm, what if that's a man or if that's a woman?

Because I could see an outline of a body driving. And there was just enough— the sun was just perfectly on the windshields. And I'm like, wow, hmm, that's interesting. And Then, then the next kind of thought I had was it's like between me and me and you and that table. I'm like, wow. Hmm. Okay, so I'm going to hit this car and I got to think of things like when you ski and you fall, you learn how to fall and kind of crumble and let go and you try not to let body parts catch loose ends or whatever. You just kind of stay loose but keep it kind of compact. I'm already prepping, and then literally goes into just stop-frame slow-mo. And I remember seeing the, the driver's side rearview mirror just going past my head on the left side. And then a big piece— I mean, thank God it was not head-on. I was— I hit the quarter panel right basically where the front tire was, and kind of at this angle, I guess. And And I could see then part of that whole wheel well going past me to the left side or to my right side.

And I'm just thinking, wow, am I going to just ride through this car? Is this some kind of supernatural, weird God moment where I just, you know, the Red Sea parts and I just ride through there and then everything's okay? But of course, not the reality. And then I'm on the hood of the car. And I see Y go by in real time, just go, wow. I'm like, okay, she's good. And then what I thought was, I was certain for months and months that I had laid on the hood of the car going the other way. Because I laid on my back on that car, in my mind, going, well, this guy reminds me of being a kid out in Colorado on the ranch. So clear. It's not like LA sky where there's always a little haze or a little, you know, something. It's not that. No clouds. Wow, that's weird. So this is— yeah, I'm back in the mountains. You know, this is, this is like where I'm from kind of sky. And thinking, wow, that's, that's incredible that it's, you know, really a clear day. And then next thought was kind of, well, you know, I play guitars, I play drums, I play all these instruments.

But if I get really screwed up in this wreck, I do like EDM music. Maybe I could take on a persona, you know, I'll get a, you know, maybe instead of a mouse head, I'll get a cow head or something. I'll just become a DJ. And I'm going, there's a way to make this, you know, even there, there's a way to make this a positive. And I'm thinking about that. And then she and I just gotten married. You know, her, Elijah Grace, Paul, Wyatt, Sunshine, our kids are still trying to figure out how do we merge? You know, all this has been a lot of in my head from, you know, quite a while ago. And how do you merge families? It's a whole collision of a lot of stuff. And I'm laying there thinking, man, maybe this is the thing that brings us all into this one bubble of family joy. So maybe this is a good thing. And maybe this is, you know, God's, you know, purpose and meaning in this whole thing. You know, I hate this, but I'm sure I'm going to be fine because I've just always been fine. I've always had, you know, whenever you have something like trauma, I go, man, I've always just known how to roll with the punch.

So I'm laying there thinking that. And then I could feel myself starting to move off the edge of the car. And going, oh, okay, here's what I got to be cautious of. I don't want to come off this car and have him drive over my head. I have a helmet, but I'm thinking, meh. So I need to figure out if I come off here, I need to try and push myself away from this 60-mile-an-hour, 70-mile-an-hour car. And as soon as I felt myself airborne and I hit the ground, I'm like, okay, yeah, car's gone. I'm, I'm away. I'm clear. And then I started just rolling like— I'm going, oh my God, you can't roll this fast. This isn't— I'm going to roll off into something else and hit a tree or roll off. And I'm going too fast. So I started trying to use my arms, my legs, whatever, to kind of brake. And you finally come to the end of the big, you know, great roll. And I remember kind of being over on my face. On the ground and just going, oh, but it knocked the wind out of me so I couldn't breathe for a second.

I'm just going, oh, what? Oh. And I just remember thinking, why did this have to happen? And literally, as soon as I could get my breath almost, I started going, wait a minute, we have a show in like 4 hours. And the first thing I ever do, no matter what kind of— you fall off a ladder, you fall off a horse, you fall out, you hit your hand, It's like, oh, am I okay to play? I got to be able to do that really soon. So I'm laying there thinking that exact thought, and I start hearing this guy yelling above me in a sort of Hispanic-sounding dialect, stop the cars! Stop the cars! And I'm kind of thinking, the cars are all stopped. I mean, what cars? And And I'm also going— the— my first instinct was, or my first, you know, shock was, oh my God, don't yell. It would just seem so loud. I'm going, dude, just be quiet, bro. Just be quiet. Let me just— I'm really trying to go, okay, I got to deal with me. You just, you know, let me have some space. Well, turns out one car had— when I was rolling, a car had been coming from the opposite direction, had already swerved to miss me.

Another car had come in through there, several cars that almost killed me while I'm rolling down the road. So I didn't know any of that. And he's doing all that. And then I remember kind of laying there and looking and going, where's Y? And I could see 100 yards down the road or 75, her bike. And I remember seeing her getting off and just letting it go and it just fell over. Like, okay, well, she's good in some kind of Some kind of thought, you know, I don't even know how clear it was, but going, okay. And then just laying there going, I really need to take care of me. I need to not focus on any of this other stuff. And this guy, whose name was Sean, I later found out was an off-duty EMT, was literally saving my life. People started coming around, other drivers who had— one of them worked at a hospital in Deadwood. One of them, you know, they had medical backgrounds. He was an EMT that just had decided to go fishing. And, and his wife, as I mentioned, he turned— his kids were bugging him to go home from fishing 5 minutes before.

And he goes, okay, well, we'll go home, but I'm going the long way. So he turned right instead of going left back towards Deadwood. And it was a longer, more scenic drive, which I later met him. And he told me these things, but he, you know, was standing there doing all this stuff. I was ignoring it and just kind of laying there and trying to. And I had a moment there where where I was like, I'm not dying. I'm still good, right? And I'm talking to myself, and I did start just yelling the word Jesus. I was like, I don't care who else is here. This is who's taking care of this thing. And I started kind of— when I first quit rolling, I had that glove on and I could see my fingers were like these joints or whatever were sticking up like this.

Cool.

And I remember laying there going, I got this gig. I need to unstick these right now so I have my hands ready. So I remember kind of starting to go, you know, trying to pull and think, oh, this is going to pop back into socket. And then I realized they weren't doing anything. Plus, it hurt like a wild banshee. And so I left my hand in that glove. And before too long, there was a bunch of people. And then Y had come up there and she was talking to me. And our buddy who had gotten the bikes, who had been an EMT himself years before, was here in my face, and they're talking to me. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, you know, Jesus, Jesus. And I would just go on, there's only one way. I don't care what all you people think. You're not saving me. And I didn't know he reached down. I can feel him doing something to my pants. And I'm like, what is he doing? And he had taken a knife and was cutting my pants open so he could see. And I remember kind of sitting up. To see why.

And I could see I had on a cowboy boot, and I could see it was standing up and it's facing away from me.

Oof.

And, you know, and I had been with, with my— with Wyatt and Carl, I'd been a skateboarder and done all the stuff you do as a dad, you know. And, and I'm thinking, I'm never watching any of those skateboard videos anymore where people have these huge wrecks, you know. I— that sucks to see people get hurt. I don't— this— my, my foot's going that way. My brain was telling me it was probably a compound broken leg fracture kind of thing. Obviously what had happened, I, you know, now know it was, it was just laid open and there wasn't much there but flesh and ligaments going into that boot. But I didn't register that. I just was like, wow, I don't want to watch, you know, ridiculousness ever again. That's just stupid to watch people get hurt. But I saw the boot. And if I really try, sometimes I think I can see the cords and the tendons and whatever's going in there. But what I did see was I was like, whoa. And there was— and I've heard varied stories about this, but I could see this guy, Sean, and maybe some other people around me.

And there was this just pool, big pool Of purple blood. And I'm going, whoa, that's not the kind of blood that comes out of your finger when you cut it. That's that kind of blood that hasn't, you know, that's coming from somewhere else and hasn't been whatever happened yet. And I remember thinking, you know, for a lifetime in different churches, there's always talk about the purple garment of Jesus. I'm thinking, oh my God, that's the purple garment. That's life. That's what that is. And I'm like, oh, you know, that's, that's some deep shit, you know? Wow. And I was just shocked to seeing him standing in it, seeing it on his feet and going, hmm, you know, still not at all understanding. When that, when that thing's cut, the femoral artery, you got 3 minutes. So a lot of this happened pretty quick. Obviously. And then I just lay back down on my helmet because it would just kind of hold me and just sitting there going, oh God, oh God, okay, Jesus, Jesus, and just yelling it. And I could see Wye talking to me and, you know, what do you say? Something, you know, whatever she was saying.

And this other guy, Greg. And, uh, but I'm just like, this is me and God. And I don't know what anybody else has to do with this. And about then, they had somehow gotten one belt, and obviously a good one, and pulled it tight to start a tourniquet. And this is probably in your second minute of, you know, 3 minutes of life, you know, whatever. And as soon as they put that belt on my leg, I had never known anything close to pain until that moment. And it was like, Ah! And I'm yelling. And I'm laying there and I'm thinking, once again, I can't breathe. I couldn't get a breath. I couldn't, I couldn't force through what's happening. I also couldn't figure out what was happening. And my first thought was, oh my God, somebody has an acetylene torch. And they're just burning this thing to cauterize So it'll quit bleeding.

Sheesh.

And it just felt like I was putting it into a fire and I couldn't breathe. And that was the first moment I went, oh dear God, I'm dying. This is— I'm dying. I can't breathe. I can't do anything. And I remember seeing, you know, my kids faces and saying why and going, we can't get to this and have this be the end of the story. But I can't quite compute why I can't breathe, and why this hurts so bad. And what's even happening? I just was like, it was just kind of like a blur of chaos and pain. And and just going, you gotta fight. You gotta fight, dude. You gotta don't you know don't let go of anything. And just going, okay, yeah, this is on me to not let it go because there was definitely a few seconds of going, my God, I can't take this pain. And maybe just letting go is a an answer, but I still had. More will to be here than not be here is what I felt like at that point. And I was like, you just got to come on, get a breath, get a breath, you know.

And pretty soon I could get sort of a breath and I could kind of just scream. And, you know, I didn't even know, but they had put 2 more tourniquets on me, belts of some nature. And then subsequently later when I met the people that were involved 6, 7 months later, maybe, or maybe even a year when we went back there to do that show again. Um, I met them all, and there one lady goes, the belts wouldn't even stop you from bleeding. I actually held you too and just squeezed where I could squeeze to get it to not bleed. And I'm like, wow, okay, that's, that's big. That's a big one. And I could just sort of will myself to keep fighting and keep Breathing and hanging on and you know screaming his name, and then I could hear this guy Sean who was on the phone. And you know sometimes I think why even thought I would pass out or something because I would just close my eyes and be all I knew was I gotta stay in here and take care of this. I gotta fight whatever I can do, whatever I need to think or feel or breathe or do.

To stay here, I got to do it. And I can't worry about making sure you know I'm okay or anybody. I don't care. I just don't care. It's me and this. And I could hear him on the phone calling and talking mile markers to somebody. In the meantime, I did forget the ambulance had gotten there in probably, I don't know, 10 minutes or something. And there was an ambulance there. So then there were EMTs and people around me, most of which I just don't even remember looking at, because I just thought, you know, you guys don't— you're not— this is not your job. And I could hear them with radios and talking. And I think they had put some— they told me something. I think they may have given me something in an IV form. I don't even know what. But, and all of them saying we can't give anything for pain or whatever, you know, I'm like, you know, whatever. But I could hear him talking to somebody on the phone and going, if I put him in this truck, he dies. I'm going, oh, that checks out. It's going around what I've been feeling, you know.

And because it was going to take me to Hill City to a little small midway hospital. He goes, no, they don't have any way to take care of what this is. We need a helicopter. And I'm thinking, oh, there's going to— I guess I'm going for a helicopter ride, but not knowing what that meant. And he was telling him stuff and he was telling him— I remember him saying, there's power lines on the right side. We're at mile marker 78. There's trees on the left, but there's a space here on the road. There's a clearing. That's what I'm going. Okay, help this hurries, and still never went out nothing. And it was 58 minutes from the wreck to that thing, that bird coming down and me hearing it. I could hear it in the sky and going, oh praise God! You know, that'll probably be good if I get on that thing. And the pain had, you know, was still just like, I just it just doesn't go away when that. That blood wants out. It's just whatever's all going on in your body. I don't even know. And I was just trying to compartmentalize and go, okay, keep the pain over here and keep the will to live over here and just keep thinking, what do I need to do in here?

And they kept trying to cut that glove off. They'd cut my belt. I remember that and going, that's a great belt. A friend of mine made that. And as a matter of fact, I'm wearing it today. Or am I? No, I'm not. But I'm like, just don't cut my stuff off. You know, just quit that. You're not— you have nothing to do with this. But they would get that glove. And I remember whatever it was, Holy Spirit anger going, do not touch the glove. Okay. Okay, leave the glove. And everybody would get— everybody was talking, leave the glove, leave the glove. And not even really knowing what was happening here, because I kind of forgotten about that with all this. And still just trying to keep thinking all these thoughts about the kids and, you know, what is what is going on? We just started this family and heard that chopper, and then and I remember hearing it land, and then they those guys all come running at me and tell me we got to put you on another gurney, sir. You know, and we're going to have to take you over here, and we'll get you in this chopper, and we'll get you to the hospital.

But it's going to be a little you're going to be bumped around a little bit, and it's going to be. Probably not your favorite. And I'm like, another— no, this is my favorite. Let's just get to what we need to get to. And I remember them moving me and dragging whatever over there. And I didn't look down because they had to cut my foot off there and disattach from that boot and all that stuff. They just had to cut what was left laying there and flesh and everything. And, you know, post that, they went to Wai and told her right as soon as I got in the chopper, they're going, we will take care of all this that's laying here. We won't let it be— because there was a crowd by then. And there are people putting pictures in their phone and sending them to TMZ by 5 o'clock that night. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The fame piece was still at play. And they go, so they knew, they could tell, and they knew who we were. And they said, we will clean this up, as much of this as we can, and we will do what we're supposed to do with it.

But I know they cut the foot off because it showed up at the hospital in the sock. And I'm like, you know, and I can see it there, but— Anyway, I get in the chopper and I remember the doctor sitting over me and he goes, now, Mr. Mosier, we can't— I really can't give you anything for pain. I can give you a little something to maybe ease it for a second. We'll probably be in the air 15 minutes and then we'll be at the hospital. But you're going to need to be able to talk to doctors and you're going to need to be able to communicate. So we can't really make this any better for you. Okay, whatever. You know, just— that's great. Take me. And so all that was kind of going on at the same time besides the, you know, people taking pictures of all of it. Because there were so many pictures on the internet and everywhere else. When I finally was through it, I'm like, how in the hell? Who was doing all this? You know, where— why is there so much? But so what happens anyway? Got in that chopper.

And I remember the guy saying that. And I was like, okay. And then I kind of did miss a lot of that ride. I remember thinking, hmm, we're coming down. And I think they tried to wake me up and probably did. And I remember hearing us coming down. I could hear the chopper echoing off the wall of this hospital. I kind of looked out and could see this little hospital. And I'm going, oh my God, okay, here we are. But after reawakening, then the pain was even more intense. And so My son-in-law Justin, who plays guitar with us, had been driven from Deadwood over. Now I'm in Rapid City. They'd made an hour and a half drive. They put Y in a state trooper car and said, you probably have phone service for about 5 or 8 minutes, and then you're going to be dead for most of this drive. And so she's calling family, whoever she thought she could to spread the word. And so Justin and, and another friend came over from our crew. And he said he was in the hospital waiting time I got there. And he said, man, there was no doubt you would arrive because you could hear you yelling, screaming from the door till they got you back to where the doctor was going to talk to you.

And I, you know, I knew the pain. I wasn't quite as aware. I was just screaming, but I was. And it was just blinding. The pain was just unbelievable. So I remember being rolled into the— this room. And Justin was there. And this doctor, and then whoever, other nurses or whatever. And I remember looking down and seeing that black sock. They probably had me covered in some stuff too, but I don't— he had probably taken that off. But I remember seeing that black sock and going, what? And I still had the glove. And I remember telling him, this is— do not take this off. This is holding this together. And, uh, okay, we, you know, we got you. We understand we have to look at that, but we understand we're going to be very cautious. And, and then he leaned over me and he looks down and he's like going, so Here's the deal, Mr. Mosher. I'm going to do everything I can to save your hand. And I'm already going, what? Save it? And he goes, but what's happened to the leg, I can't do anything about that. And I'm going, what has really happened to this leg?

And I think I even asked him and he said, well, It's just gone. And I'm going, oh my God. And I kind of for a second went, wait, where's the part of the movie where I get to go— they go, we could work on this, or you can just say, let it go. And I remember thinking, I want to have that heroic moment where I'm the hero and go, oh, you can take the leg. Because I am a badass. And I literally thinking, where's— I get to say yes or no, don't I? And he was like, yeah, that's a done deal. And I'm kind of, oh my God, you know, wait. And you're thinking all the things you do. I do a lot with this leg. And you kind of did. I kind of was like, wait, I, I'm an athlete. I do all kinds, you know, I still freaking play basketball. You know, I still ski. I still ride. I do all these things. I'm like, okay, okay. And in some version of how clear I could be, he goes, so we're gonna take you in. I'm gonna take off, you know, we're— I think maybe they had looked at the hand by then or something.

I don't know. That's probably, you know, vague. Because we're gonna go to surgery, we're gonna get you in there now. So it's probably going to be 5 hours, you'll be back out. And, you know, your wife's coming and your son-in-law's here and They'll all be here, you know, but you got to go with us now. So then we rolled away and 6 hours, I guess, later, or 6 and a half, I think about 11— that was about 5 o'clock in the afternoon. About 11:30, I awakened in a hospital room. You can hear all the beeps and buzzes and weird shit.

Shit.

Yeah. And all I could think was, I looked down, and it was covered, but I could see this whole thing down here, this contraption by my end of my leg, which at the end of my leg was here. So maybe it was like right here. I don't know. I'm laying down. And I'm thinking, probably looking for where my foot would have been. And instead, it was clear up here. And this thing, and they started explaining, well, this is like a vacuum. And we're cleaning because this leg was cut off by a dirty car. You rolled down the road, all this gravel and rock and all this stuff's up in there. And we had to clean it out. We're still cleaning. We're still doing what we will do for the next few days because we can't begin until it's clean. Okay. And then This was in a huge big thing, and I'm like, "What's going on here?" You know, and they're like, "Well, we have placed your hand in the neutral position, which is basically this, and we've got your fingers and your thumb and everything, and we think you know it looks good. We're not going to say more than it looks good, and it's going to be like this for a while." And I'm just like, good God, you know, this is not one I want to wake up to.

And I was also so thirsty that I was like, okay, I just need water. I need water. And they're like, we can give you a little cup of ice. Like, no, no, no, no, no, I need water. And for hours, I kept bargaining with the nurse. And I said, I know there's a $100 bill in my pants. Go get it. And go get me, go to Sonic and get me one of those giant cups of, you know, strawberry limeade. She's like, well, that's great. I don't want your $100, but I can't do that. You can't have all that fluid. And I'm like, oh my God, I was bargaining. And I finally did get her to get me a little baby, one of those little baby cans of Fresca, which I'll never forget. And it was the greatest taste I'd ever tasted in my whole life, you know. But it was very much And to back up, what was funny about me laying on that car for all that time when they started talking about all this gravel and all this stuff in my leg, I a year later found out from one of the guys who was there because I kept going, are there any pictures?

I want to see what my leg was. What was it? And this guy who was on the ride said, I feel kind of creepy, but I have one. And I got it. And it was sort of nondescript. I mean, it's kind of hard to tell. But I said, so how long was I on the hood of that car? Going the other direction. And he's like, put out the car. Dude, you hit that windshield and you flew like a missile, like 80 yards in the air. I'm going, that whole movie of me laying on the hood and thinking about being a DJ and the kids, I mean, I was just in the air flying. So that's kind of like one of the weird things about shock. So it's 11:30, 11:45, and I was probably— and Justin was in there praying, reading the word. Why had come in, um, we had talked and everything, and I was thinking, I just need to get some sleep. Or I think they were telling me, you know, we need to let him rest. So why was like— we'd had one of the tour buses brought over to the hospital, so she went back to the bus and Justin goes, They're going to take turns who does what.

And Justin's like, I'm good. You go get some rest. I'll stay here. And by then it was maybe 1 in the morning. And I've got the Dilaudid IV over here, I guess, or the morphine with the little button that they say, just push it every 10 minutes. And there'll be a little alarm goes off if you haven't. And then they've got Dilaudid going in over here, or somewhere, probably there. And I'm like, I don't— I'm good. I don't need all that, you know. And she's like, you have to stay ahead of the pain. You have no idea what this is going to feel like when you get— when you're not ahead of the pain. Okay, you know, I'll try it, you know, for whatever. And so You know, every 10 minutes, I'd hear the beep, and I push it or whatever. And probably after an hour or two, it started to be like, I think I'm gonna push it. Because it would definitely start to be like, I'm starting to feel this. Me and Justin are talking, kind of. And he's like, man, just go ahead and take a rest. You know, don't worry, we're not going to entertain me.

And I'm not trying to, but— And I'm boop. And so I finally— he said my breathing started to kind of slow down, and I just kind of get calm and quiet. And he goes, then all of a sudden you just stopped breathing. Your breathing went from kind of regular to kind of slower to just like— He goes, I'm sitting there, I'm sitting there, your heart was beating. He could hear the— see the monitor. But he's just sitting right here. And he goes, he's not taking a breath. And I didn't. And he's like, oh my God, oh my God. And so he ran out in the hall and yelled, very little, small, quiet, peaceful, little, not very big hospital. He goes, he's quit breathing. And the nurse goes, get in there. Get him awake. I don't care what you got to do. Get on top of him, slap him, Do whatever you gotta do. So here's, you know, poor son-in-law going, okay. And so he comes in and jumped literally on top of me in that hospital bed and is smacking me, slapping me, cactus, cactus, and shaking me and going, you gotta wake up, you gotta wake up.

And I remember— And they went to get the crash cart thing, which has got everything that will reverse every pain med and all the stuff, adrenaline, every Hunter S. Thompson, you know, drug we ever read about. And I'm like, and they probably hit me with that too. And I remember coming awake like I had been launched out of a cannon. And just being like, what? And I remember seeing Justin right here. And I'm like, what is going on? And he's like, dude, you got to stay awake. But then I was so overamped, Then they were telling him, well, keep him calm. And he's like, what am I doing? Slapping him, hitting him, keeping him awake, or am I keeping him calm? And he would go, no, no, no, you're good, you're good. And I'm like, what's going on? What's going on? And I had this very clear, weird vision going on. And I'm looking down here and I could see Like, where my stomach was, it looked like, kind of like one of those pixelated things in a movie or something. But it looked like there was like this rolling waterfall of just reality. I mean, it wasn't something physical.

It was just something rolling like this. And it was like— and I felt like it was a waterfall. And I'm going— And then he would calm me down. And then I would fall back to sleep. And then he would re-wake me up. And I'm like, oh, I got— what do I got to do? And I'm going, I can see this thing very clearly. And I'm thinking, this is a test. I'm going, tell me what to do. I will do it. What do I need to do to live? And this felt like this was very alluring. And it was like going, And it was almost like a conversation. Somebody was going, just go to sleep. Come on over the waterfall. Just come on. And I'm thinking, it doesn't feel like a good thing. This doesn't— this feels like a lie. It's too easy. I mean, for one thing, it'd just be like— because when I would fall back to sleep, which probably happened 6 times, or I don't know, because it was so— Oh, this feels so good. And then he would shake me, wake me back up, and I'd be like, oh my God. And I did say every time, this is a test.

You have to tell me, Justin, what do I need to do? Explain it. I will just do it right now. And then he would just do this. No, no, just be calm. And then I don't know, I can't say who else was in there. It was just me and him in this whole vision and this thing. And I'm like going, And this kind of voice is going, you just go to sleep, man. Just come on over. But it was just like, like a top of a waterfall, and I could just see it rolling. And I'm just, I don't know why it's here. Is it your, you know, my soul? My, what is it? You know, I felt like it was definitely, I didn't feel like this was God. I felt like this was something else going, just let go, man. Come on, it's easy. Come on, come on with us. And so, so every time I would wake back up and he would, he would just explain, no, no, no, you don't have to do anything. You don't, you just, just stay awake, stay awake. And it was so hard to fight those, you know, everything taking me down and trying to go, I got to breathe.

I got to, okay, what do I— and, and he would never give me this equation that I was wanting. You got to do this and do this and do this and you'll be fine. Of course, it didn't exist. But what I really wanted to do was avoid this waterfall of dying. And so then, I don't know, they obviously probably started some kind of process to calm me but keep me alive and not make me go down. And after he says, and we've talked about this Over the years, it was like an hour and a half of this process of him on me, pulling me back up, me going back down, pulling me back up. And he goes, "Oh no, it happened a long time." He goes, "He goes I'd hit you a bunch of times." He goes, "I was shocked you didn't have bruises on your face to get you to not fall asleep." And I'm sure once he was on me, they were going, "You just stay up there, dude. We're you got it." And so he literally did, you know. Pull me out of that. And this voice would be less saying, just let go, just let go.

And me going, I'm not— no, I'm not fucking doing that, you know. But it was so easy just to fall back to sleep. Anyway, fought through all that, got through all that. And I guess that lasted up until early, early in the morning. Well, they finally got me where I was stabilized enough to, you know, He could get off the bed.

Sheesh.

Yeah.

And we wound up being— so the hand specialist came in to see me the next day who was there, you know, South Dakota, the South Dakota hand guy and the leg guy. And they were going, you definitely need to go back to Nashville to you know, really have this looked at. And Greg, who was the guy that had gotten those bikes for us, who was the head of William Morris, had dear friends at Vanderbilt. Doug Weikert, who's the head of all the hand specialty stuff— I mean, symphony players or musicians have flown from around the world to come see him. Greg had already called them, said, you got to see this guy, so get that squared away as soon as he can come from here. And the leg thing was, was, it was kind of defined, you know, they're going to do what they're going to do. We just got to keep it clean. But you got to have enough strength to be able to go, you can leave this hospital and get back to Nashville. And I was definitely going, you know, I mean, it was wild. Wynonna was out there. It's a very bizarre reality in this little town.

People even showing up there to look at the bus and go, oh my God, this is on the news. This is what's going on there. She's in there. He's up there. You know, strange dealings. One of the guys that almost hit me had driven to the hospital when I was in surgery, came in, found Justin and said, I almost drove over him when he was rolling down the road. I just got to know. I don't need to see him. I don't want to meet anybody. I don't want anything. Just tell me he's okay. And he said, well, he's in surgery and, you know, you didn't hit him, thank God. And thank you for coming and all that. But so the next day I'm just kind of assessing and going, you know, I don't ever feel very good. And I'm like, I don't know when I'll, I'll feel it and know it when we can look at, you know, put me on a little jet and fly me back to Nashville. But I don't want to rush it. And they were all going, you're fine. This is put in place. This is cleaning. Nothing besides your strength and being able to take that kind of travel, that kind of exertion matters.

And I knew why was, you know, she was fine. But it was definitely, it was just tough. She couldn't hardly move through the hospital to come see me without, you know, all the rigmarole. And so But it wasn't like she pressured me. And then I just kept going, I know I got to get— I got to feel when it's right. Justin was there. And we were all just would have these little meetings and go even with why I wasn't there. And he's like, dude, you got to know when you feel right. You can't go to try and get her, save her. You can't do anything before you feel like you can make that kind of trip. And I was pretty certain, I don't think I can I can barely— and by then this thing is like this big. And of course, they wrap it really tight to keep trying to squeeze the fluids and liquids out of it and keep the swelling down so it doesn't get worse and the skin starts to split or some kind of weird other crazy crap. And I knew that I, you know, I couldn't turn over, I couldn't roll in the bed, I couldn't do anything without that just going, oh my God.

Oh my God. That thing is like a pain pallet in the size of a huge ham attached to me. So I can't— it was pretty much hell. You're just going, this couldn't be worse. Bed's horrible. All hospital beds are horrible. But couldn't turn, couldn't move, and just couldn't do anything but lay there and try. And I would lay there and go, just Jesus, whatever it takes, whatever you need from me, If you'll just take me back 30 seconds before that wreck, I know I can fix this. And I could not have yearned, tried, prayed, willed myself anymore to get back and look what I could do. I knew I could change something. I just was positive. And I'm laying there just in this kind of weird hell and thinking, wait a minute.

What?

Am I ever going to be able to do anything? Am I ever gonna be able to play instruments again? Am I ever going to be able to do anything?

This—

I don't even know what's in here. It's so huge and so weird. And I just feel like hell. But that was on Saturday. The wreck was on Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. And by Tuesday, I was like, I think, I think I'll be okay to go on Wednesday. And so started making those plans, and they're going, you know, praise God, we could use Medjet and all the, you know, the finer things that, you know, thank God we could do. And so just kind of psyching up to go, okay, I'm moving out of here. And plus, it kind of becomes this little cocoon because I know these people now, and I can ask them questions, and they felt like my safe place at one. What do you think about this hand? What do you think about all of this? And they couldn't give me answers, but they just were kind of my people by then. I'm going, I don't want to go to a new— anyway, so Wednesday, made the decision, that'll be the day. I don't know, midday, we decided to leave there. And I remember Why and I were just talking and I said, before we leave, we need to pray for these people.

And we started going out and all the hospital staff was with us. And I said, before we leave, I want to pray for you guys. And they were going, what? And man, it was like just crying and people going, oh my God, you know, praying for me, me praying for them. Why praying? It was kind of one of those things you'll never lose or forget. You know, those people you don't even know, you'll never see them again. And yet they were that connected. And so we went, and I remember being in the ambulance thinking, wow, what's it going to feel like when we take off, when pressurization hits this? What's going to happen? And we got on that little jet and we took off. And I remember because it was just small, it was a little Learjet. And so there's like a doctor next to me or probably a nurse, somebody. And while I was way in the back, And I remember we were just like talking a little bit and I started then getting paranoid about landing because I thought, that's maybe when I'm going to feel this because it was so sensitive. And I swear they must have started descending at like St.

Louis because we must have come an inch at a time because we hit the runway in Nashville. I'm going, where's the part where we come out of the air? We just are here. And so landed, get into an ambulance and remember going to Vanderbilt. I still drive past that and get Just PTSD, if that's what it is. When I see those buildings I was seeing come up past me going, I think I'm just about to start the worst part because I knew I had to have surgery to finally work on this, close it, surgery to get into this, how much and what and, you know, all that crap. And, you know, getting wheeled into another hospital and just the worst to me. The worst place on earth is a hospital, even though Praise God, they saved me. And that was— it became probably the next— I was there 7 days, the 2 surgeries, hand, leg, and then trying to go, okay, next thing you're going to do is you're going to a rehab place and you're probably going to be there 4 weeks. And I'm like, 4 weeks? And they said, well, we're just going to take it a step at a time.

And from here, my bed to the door of that hospital, and they said, we're going to get you up. We're going to put you on a walker. And they had this weird walker that had just elbow and my hand here. And they go, we just want to see if you can get to the door. And I had been running 3 days a week or more, working out all the time. The day before the wreck, I'd ridden a bicycle all over Denver the day before.

Wow.

I'm going, I can get to that door. I can get down the hall to the desk. They're okay, man. We'll just see here. You know, come on, Cactus. They get me out of the bed. And I literally hopped and hobbled with that thing and got to the door and was going, I gotta go back to the bed. And I couldn't believe it was a week. Well, it hadn't even been a week. Maybe it was close to a week by then, I guess. And I couldn't even walk that far or move that far. And I was just toast. No strength, no energy.

What do you think the waterfall was?

I think the waterfall was definitely a very weird spiritual thing. I do think it was a— because it just always felt like, that's easy. I can go to sleep and just feel comfortable and go over this thing. But I feel like that's hell. And I remember saying, later discussing it, going, I felt like it was this wheel going to hell. It was like, come on, just die. And we'll just take you. And it never felt like it was anything godly. The fight felt godly. It was like the hardest part. But it felt like if you just let it happen, it's easy.

And you'd see that every time you pass out.

Yeah, every time I awakened and it was just there, clear as a bell.

Oh, it was there when you woke up?

Yeah, as soon as I'd wake up, it'd be like, oh, shit, there it is. And it was alluring. It was almost like, come on, come on. But it looks so vivid and bizarre. But I did feel like that's going to hell. That is dropping off the edge and going right to hell. And the voice was just going, seriously, It's just go to sleep.

Wow. Mhm. Okay, just thanks for sharing that, man. Mhm. Here's the pitch. It takes 2 minutes and you'll never think about it again. Download it, hit one button, close the app. That's the entire job. No manual, no settings, no tech background, nothing Easy for you to get wrong. And then it just runs, blocking the trackers, the phishing sites, and the surveillance ads across every app on the device, all day, quietly, without anybody having to do anything. Its first week out, it hit number 6 on Apple's top downloaded productivity chart. Built by former U.S. intelligence professionals, I'm a co-founder. Glacier, download it on the App Store. And remember, privacy isn't paranoia, it's protection. Well, that was heavy. This whole interview has been heavy.

It is heavy.

Wow, man.

But there's light.

There is light.

The darkness.

Well, I got you a gift.

Okay, what could it be?

It's a gun.

I've never had one.

You've never had one?

Wait a minute, I've had one gun in my entire life and it was a Glock.

It was a Glock?

Yeah.

It was a hell of a lot cooler than a Glock.

My husband— my ex-husband stole it from me.

A couple months ago, I was hanging out at your house, and I was talking to your son Elijah about some of the stuff they're outfitted with over on the SWAT team, and I was not impressed.

Okay.

Actually, I was pretty pissed off.

Okay, raged. You go, Sean.

And, uh, yeah, they don't have reliable weapons over there. And, uh, so I made a couple phone calls and, um—

Or she did.

Yeah, I made a couple phone calls. Actually, I was gonna do it and, uh, I, I called— I got a buddy over at Sig, his name's Jason, maybe you've heard of him. A lot of people have. And, uh, I was telling him, I said, hey, I got a good friend. He's running the SWAT team over in a neighboring county, and, uh, they have a very tight budget and they don't have reliable firearms, you know, to do their job. And it just really pisses me off that they are out there putting their life on the line.

Right. Amen.

So I said, if you guys have some old stock or anything, that you can give me at cost, I'd love to. I'd love to pay for it. And I just want to re-outfit them with some stuff that actually works, that they— oh my God, they don't have to worry about reliability issues. And he said, let, let me— he's like, give me a week or so and let me see if I can— let me see what we have.

Okay.

So he called me back and This isn't the exact rifle.

What?

Yeah, yeah.

But did you just say rifle?

They're going to be very similar to this.

Now, wait a minute. Let me get this straight. This is for Elijah?

Well, this is for you, but they're going to be similar to this. But he said, not only am I going to give— he goes, look, we'll supply the rifles. But he said, we also want to put suppressors on the rifles and optics.

I was going to say, where's my suppressor?

And flashlights. So this is a Sig Rattler .300 Blackout. It's got a folding stock.

I don't even know what that means.

Yeah. Well, you know, I think, uh, your husband Cactus is going to be a lot more excited about this than you are. But, uh, this is very similar to what we're gonna outfit the sheriff's department, uh, that Elijah works at with the SWAT team over there. So they're gonna be 5.56, but they're gonna be SBRs, they're gonna be suppressed, they're gonna have flashlight, they're gonna have the optic. And, uh, so I know Cax already has a lot of 5.56.

Wow. Oh, why is it so heavy?

Well...

Because that's just the way it goes.

There's a lot of ass behind it. But that's a .300 Blackout. You gotta ask that first. Super quiet. Maybe we can clack a couple rounds off out back.

Oh, my gosh.

At the end of the show here.

Crazy thing.

But— but—

Sean, thank you. You're welcome.

But the cool thing is, Is there re-outfitting the whole SWAT team with those?

OMG. Well, I want to learn, so this will help me get— you know, this encourages me to start moving towards it.

Cool.

Because I've always been afraid of them, right? So I need to embrace the fear. Thank you.

You're welcome. Wow.

Well, I got you something.

You did. I love presents.

I know you do, but you have everything. So this is one of those that you're just going to have to— what can we do with this?

I'll take that.

I was going to say, you're the one that handles— I've got a photo I'm looking for, so you're going to have to give me some space on that one. This is from my heart to yours. Instead of holy water, it's Holler water. That's from the lake.

Is that where we got baptized? Yes.

Dude, this is awesome. And I've got a photo coming with it that is of you getting baptized. And it's really— oh, that's for Katie.

This is for Katie?

Yeah. But those are holy water from the lake. I couldn't think of anything to get you. Dude, this is awesome.

This is perfect.

Well, you'll keep it forever, and it'll remind you of that beautiful day.

Is this St. Michael?

Mhm. Thank you. You're welcome.

So for those that don't know, we all got baptized together in a lake on your property on Easter Sunday a couple years ago.

That's right.

Thank you.

You're welcome, dear one.

That means the world to me.

I know it does. Faith is the key.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Well, actually, I got you something else. So I give these out a lot on the show.

Oh, you do?

Yes, I do. But these— this is— have you heard of the Jesus Calling book?

Honey, I give them out too.

Do you really?

These are the ones I go back to 1970. something when they— I used to give them out by the truckload. What a great idea. Yeah, so I give them away, you give me that one. It works out, right?

So there you go.

Oh my God, that's awesome, sweetheart. Devotional. No, I totally do. I give these out by, uh, the numbers. I have fans all across the world who have these. Thank you.

You're welcome. You're welcome.

Easy to read, comfort size print. Thanks for thinking of me.

You're welcome.

Oh my gosh. Enjoying peace in his presence. So I, um, yeah, I thank you for that.

All right, moving into your daughter Grace.

Where are we now?

Your daughter Grace.

Grace. Okay.

Which, um, I know is the inspiration for the song Drive, I believe, in your new album. 6-hour round trip every week to prison visits. And I know, uh, your daughter struggles a lot with addiction.

This will probably be the hardest part of this interview. For me, because I struggle even today with being a mom-in-waiting. I'm waiting for my daughter to return from a nightmarish addiction to meth. And it has been quite a journey. And unfortunately, she's been incarcerated. Since on and off since she was 17.

How old is she now?

She's 30. And the money ran out about a year and a half ago, and she did too. And I've made all the jokes about, I have one on parole, I have one on patrol. My son is a deputy, and I've done all that. And now it's time to just tell my story as a mom who's constantly in this place between hell and hallelujah. The song Drive is, yes, me driving by myself down to a prison outside Memphis where they put me through quite the security search and the whole process of going down to visit her for 2 hours. And the song talks about You know, setting a table for 2 where I constantly talk to you because I've been waiting for her since— I don't even know. It's been so long. On any given day, I have to ask my assistant, now, what year was it again that we did this or we did that? Because there have been 10 to 12 schools and rehab programs and— And all this time and effort and money later, I had to let go. And that means no more enabling. And it about killed me. Because when your kid calls and says, I'm hungry, what do you do?

I don't know.

I know. And we've talked about this some. But it's really my hope that I can help someone else out there in the world of addiction say no with love and let go and let God. Because it is the single hardest thing for me to do in my life. I'm raising her daughter. Kalia is 4. And Cactus and I are raising her together. And the song Drive helped me to process that pain, turn it into purpose. So on stage every night, I'm going to dedicate this to all the parents out there that struggle with waiting on their kid to be healed.

There's a lot of parents out there going through this.

So I hear. I know I'm not alone. I know that I'm in this situation for a reason. I'd sure like to know why the hell. But I do know this. I do know that Grace is really capable of so much, and it's crippled her life. I just found out on TikTok that she's had another baby in prison, and I don't even know if it's a boy or a girl. There are these things that people assume that I can do, but I'm just a mom in this situation. Sure, I can get a good seat in a restaurant. I can stand on the mountaintops and sing from my toenails. But this one thing, I have no control.

When did you find that out?

Not too long ago. Cactus had let me know a little bit of information, but we were still waiting on more information. And I was scrolling TikTok and I saw it and I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. It's just one of those nightmarish things that you hope you wake up from.

How did you finally find the strength to say no?

She had been incarcerated on and off for so long that it got to the point, Sean, where I realized that I'm actually helping her get drugs. By buying her another new car. She has had half a dozen, at least, by me. And I know it sounds a little petty because it's a car, but it helped me to realize that she hasn't had a job since she was 17. And she's been in and out of prison and jail for so long that that's her way of walking through the addiction part in terms of what it costs her when she goes to buy them. And we're also now dealing with fentanyl. So there's that. And I realize, oh my God, I'm actually— it's possible that I could be part of the reason she dies. I'm loving her to death, literally. And Grace is really mad at me right now. And—

Why?

Because I had a career and I was busy and she didn't have enough of me. In the beginning, I did the best I could. I've made a lot of mistakes. And she's really mad at me for stepping in with her child. Kalia has type 1 diabetes. There's no way she could have taken care of her. That's one thing. It's a 24/7 situation. And I stepped in, and I took over, and she's mad at me. And I understand that that's her journey. It's not mine. My journey is to raise this baby to be the healthiest and break the cycle. And she's not sober. And I realize that she has to make the choice herself. I've done everything I can do, Sean. I've done everything I can do. I've sent her to wilderness programs, schools, boarding schools. Schools where it's all about recovery. We all went to AA meetings, preteen meetings, and I've walked the walk with her for so long that I realized I'm not able to control her or control the disease. And all I have control over is myself. I finally get it. It took me hundreds of thousands of dollars later, I finally get it.

But I could have been the reason she died, and I just can't live with that.

Do you think this is the hardest decision you've ever had to make?

Mm-hmm. It is, because it's a daily struggle. And I can get a phone call right before I walk on stage, which I have, and it's not good. And I have to walk on stage and do my job. And those I got through because I have faith and hope in the process of healing. But what I couldn't do is get that phone call where she's died in a car wreck. On the way back from picking up drugs that I helped her buy. I'm just not going to do it anymore. So I sit and I wait and I write songs and I talk to Cactus and my team of people around me who support me. I write letters and I throw them in the fire pit and burn them.

A ton of letters.

Whether it's an apology that I know I'll never get. I've written letters to myself of, I've made a mistake and I'm sorry for that mistake. And then I burn it. Or the apology I want from her for this particular thing. And I burn it because I know I'll probably never get a—

Apology.

An apology. I just walk the walk, and I love her more than my own life, and I'm open to receiving her back into my life when she's healthy. But until then, it's really painful because I have so many people who continue to tell me, to thine own self be true. The only control I have is taking care of myself. Oh my God, what mother or father is going to do that when it comes to their child? It's impossible, Sean, to say no to someone who's hungry. How many DoorDashes of pizza have I done? How many Night says she called me at 3 in the morning and I am on my credit— on the phone with my credit card. It's a son of a bitch. Meth is a son of a bitch and it's taken my child. And I am angry. And that helps me now not be a victim, but be a victor by going out on stage, talking about it, talking about my mom's suicide. which is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. And talking about my daughter, Drive will be one of those moments in the show where I can say, been there, done that.

Walked through hell to get to my child. You're still doing it. Hmm?

You're still doing it.

I'm still doing it. Still doing it. And the only reason Why I'm talking about this right now with you— A, I trust you and I love you and you're my friend— is because Grace has been in the press lately. And all I want to do is say, hey, this isn't a public issue. This is a family issue. But she's turned the other way about it. And I just want to say, I did the best I could. You're 30 years old and you're going to have to stop blaming your mother. At some point. And I'm here when you're ready.

We've talked a little bit about the circumstances that Kalea was living in before you were able to, um, bring her in and put her under your care.

Mm-hmm.

See how happy that little girl is now.

She's thriving. She's a cowgirl princess. She's brilliant. She's 4, and she's ready to show how she has grit. And she's the joy of our heart.

You've totally changed.

A life.

That little girl's life trajectory.

I agree 100 million billion gazillion percent. And that's my focus. That's also what helps me is I realize that this child is the happiest little girl on the planet because she has a farm and she has chores and she mucks stalls. If she wants to ride her horse, she has to feed her horse. But she has a horse. I never got a pony, Sean. I'm still angry about it.

But she did.

She did. Our kids have everything. But the thing I want most for Kalia is to know that, like my grandmother did me, that she's special. She's healthy. She's special. She's beautiful. And she's my heart.

I'm sure she knows that.

But back to the song. I— it saved me. It saved me from the despair of staying stuck in the past. I don't want to do that. I see too many people do that. I want to move forward. So making this record, it's the deepest I've ever gone. And it'll be hard for some people to listen to it because it talks about, I love you, I hate you, I miss you sometimes. Things like that. Like I say to my mom in one song, All Downhill from Ashland, I love you, I need you, I hate you sometimes. Or some days. And that was really hard to sing. I hate the disease. I hate the disease. And like you said, there are so many parents out there struggling, and they don't know who to tell. I'm no longer willing to carry that burden. I'm just not. I'm so tired. So weary from carrying it. I'm not doing it anymore.

Good for you.

Yeah. Thank you.

Let's move into your mom.

Let's do it.

The final tour is announced and the Hall of Fame induction is set at the CMT Awards. All good things.

Yes, sir.

And you sensed something was off with your mother.

Yes.

What was it? What did you feel?

Well, the first thing, she was an hour late. That's never happened. And she kept us waiting. And there was a whole crew of people, not just makeup artists and managers and assistants, but a helicopter, a choir. Everyone waited. And I knew something was wrong. I just knew. That's just not Naomi Judd. And she didn't quite know the song as well. She wrote it, but she didn't recognize the production, and she was lost. And Cactus had to come out on stage and tell her where we were in the song. And he stepped in and became her sort of right hand to help her through the— Chorus and the parts of the song that she was a little bit fuzzy on. And she wouldn't look at me as much. Usually we're deadlocked, just eyes into eyes. And she wasn't present. And I walked away going, what the hell is happening? And quite devastated. Because this song has brought so many people together. And she wrote it, for God's sake. It's like, that's her penmanship on the paper. So that day was not a great day. And we were supposed to go out on a tour together. And I thought to myself, how in the world is she going to do that?

What were you thinking was wrong?

Well, unfortunately, the pharmaceutical companies, um, really let her down. And the doctors that treated her more like an equal than a patient. Celebrities get the worst care. I've heard that time and time again. And they can get what they want.

They get what they want, not what they need.

Right. So I chalk it up to she was on something because she's done it before at award shows where she's hitting me with her dress and she's not leaving me alone. And I finally turned to her and say, stop hitting me with your dress. And she's just really manic. And she had episodes, we called them. And so the pharmaceutical companies, I think— I don't know what they gave her, but they gave her something because she wasn't herself. And I sat there looking into her eyes at one point thinking, she's not there. There's nothing worse than you looking into someone's eyes and saying, I love you, and they don't say it back. There's just nothing worse. And I felt that way. I felt like I had just told someone I love them first, and they don't return the words. Because she wasn't singing. And it was like, the light's on, but no one's home. And it bothered me, obviously. It was like, what the hell? And I just walked away from that experience talking to Cactus about it, going, honey, something's wrong. Something is really wrong. And it went downhill from there.

How long before April 30th was this?

Not too long. Not too long. And Kaliya had been born, and I was reeling from that extraordinary experience. And it was just all too much. I had just met my granddaughter in prison, and then that happened. So it was within a couple of weeks of each other.

Yeah. Yeah.

Hmm. I honestly don't know how I've gotten through it. At times I sit on the back porch and look up at the sky and I'm like, thank God there's a heaven where there is none of this crap, right?

Yeah.

Hmm. She was very, very sick in the end and very fragile. And I am just now coming to a place in my healing where I can forgive And that's huge. I no longer think about the past like I used to. The anger is not as much in my thinking as it used to be. I used to constantly vacillate between the anger and the sadness. But if you do the work and you show up and you work through these stages, you get there. And that's acceptance. I accept it. And then the last stage is surrender. I'm working on that. Working on that one.

On April 30th, she committed suicide.

Yes, she did. She sure did. I got a phone call around 11:00 AM from our life coach. Saying, I need for you to come to your mother's right away. And I knew something was wrong. I just didn't expect that. And I pulled up to the house, and it's just like the movies. All the cop cars, the ambulance, the lights, the caution tape. And people are running about. And And I looked at Lindsay and said, oh my God, jumped out of the car. I've never run that fast. I almost fainted because I couldn't quite catch my breath. And I ran upstairs and they tried to hold me back and I got past a couple of them because I was in such panic. And there she was laying on the floor. And they were doing the, you know, the breathing and the CPR. And there I sit watching. Ashley's the one who found her initially, but I came in when— while they were doing the CPR. So I got to see all the activity. And they put her on the stretcher and they took her out to the ambulance and took off. And I followed. And when we got to the hospital, obviously they took her somewhere, and I had to wait for almost an hour, I think, close to it.

And I walked into a room to get something to drink, and Ashley was sitting there, and she had her group of people around her. And I had my back facing her at one point, and a guy walked in the room and said, I'm so sorry for your loss. Oh, my God. And I whipped around and I looked at him and I said, excuse me? And he looked at me like, oh my God, she doesn't know. And he said, I'm so sorry. And they finally took us back to her room in the hospital and she was laying there. Oh my God.

Hmm.

And I actually went to her feet and I went to her upper body and I saw everything graphic, you know, visuals, and couldn't believe it. I'm in shock and denial, of course. And I closed her eyes and I kissed her on her forehead and I said, I love you, Mom. And I left. And then they took me to the police station and interrogated me about the murder possibility. And I'm sitting there going, this is just like in the movies.

They interrogated you about a potential murder?

They did everybody suspect. You're a suspect until they rule it out. You don't realize some of this, but that's what happens. And my son was on the cleanup team. So he's had his share of the trauma, of course. It's just hard to believe, honestly, Sean. It's hard to believe that this stuff can happen to you. It happens to other people. It happens in the movies, but it doesn't happen to you. And I went home, went to bed, got up the next morning and showed up to the Country Music Hall of Fame to be inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame. I was not going to miss out on my destiny. That's the only thing that kept me going. And I did it. I showed up. And that's what you got to do regardless of the situation. You got to show up if you want your miracle.

I'm sorry.

I know. I am too, Sean. I am too. Our story wasn't supposed to end that way, of course. And I carry some anger still. I deal with it the best I can, and then I go sing. And now I write songs. And I have an incredible husband who loves me. And a great support team around me, and disciples who come sit by my side. And I don't have to be alone in all this. But you got to reach out for help. That's the thing I'm learning is you got to be willing to go on the Sean Ryan Show and talk about this stuff and say, "Hey, it's not easy, but." And I do the next right thing.

How does it feel to be here talking about this stuff?

Well, I trust you. Last night when we were having dinner, I was asking myself that very same thing, just because at one point I thought, am I really doing this? What have I done? This is really going to happen. I didn't sleep much last night because I thought, I'm gonna get the same old, same old stuff from the tabloids and the other stuff. And why are you doing this now that she's gone? She can't defend herself. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the truth is, this is my story. And I don't think that keeping secrets anymore is beneficial to me. I just don't. Everybody's different. And some people are not going to agree with what I'm doing. But the dynasty, the Judds, the stories, there's some real good stuff there. But there's also dysfunction, and we had it just like every other family. And again, I'm not a victim, and I'm not telling this from a place of anger. I'm telling this from a place of love for the fans, for the friends and the family who know me best as Noni. The grandmother who's raising a 4-year-old. I do it from love, a place of love that I now know is going to carry me through all this, if that makes any sense.

I wasn't ready to tell this story at 60. I wasn't ready. I'm ready now. And maybe it'll help somebody else. And that to me is church.

Do you think your mom's listening to this?

I do. I do. I think she's around me a lot and I feel her and I look up a lot on stage. People ask me all the time, why do you look up so much? Because I'm talking to her. Can you hear me now? There's a song on the record and I say, can you hear me now? Would you— are you harmonizing? Can you hear me? And I'm constantly having conversations with her. Absolutely. And where she's at, it's got to be great. It's got to be so great. I can't wait. To see her again, and I know I'm going to.

Do you ever feel anything back?

Hmm?

Do you ever feel anything back from her?

I get goosebumps on my neck and my arms, and that's about it. I feel the Holy Spirit a lot on stage. So it's one of those, I'm not sure if it's her or the Holy Spirit. I'll take either one. So...

Is there anything you ever didn't— you— is there anything you wish you could have told your mom?

I should have said, no more. Probably. That's the first thing that came to my mind. But I didn't because I wanted her to, you know, Like me a lot. To get her own bus. Yeah. To get her own bus. She used to say that she was— I think she even said it on Oprah— that she was good birth control or something. She made some wisecrack. She was always doing that to me. And if I had just told her to get her own bus, I don't know, that probably would've been a good start for me to have better boundaries. I didn't have good boundaries. And I did her hair every single night for stage. So I want major credit in heaven for that. But otherwise, I have such peace knowing that I've done all this work and I keep showing up in whatever shape I'm in, and I'm going to keep doing so until I can't. So I have big plans.

I know you do. Are you ready for this tour?

I don't know. I think it depends on the day. And it'll be— and I make jokes about this— it depends on what state I'm in. And what state I'm in I think Ashland will be incredibly bittersweet. Things like that. I'm getting ready to play my hometown where I grew up in the dirt. And now here I am, the queen of the parade. That'll be incredibly hard in some ways, but so liberating in others. And I'm so proud to be from Kentucky and so proud to be carrying the The flag, that I love every minute of it. It's just going to be painful at times because I'm going to try not to carry the stuff that people put on me from telling their story. You know, people come up to me all the time in airports and other places and tell me their stuff. And that's going to be hard at times to not carry that. But I've got my ways of dealing with that. And I've got my new Jesus Calling book. So I'm going to be okay.

You know, towards the beginning of this interview, we talked about simplicity. And you missed simplicity.

You're right.

And that flood that triggered you to move to California—

Hmm, that's good.

So my last question is, that flood changed your entire life's trajectory, everything.

Good point.

Do you wish that flub would have never happened?

No, because we ended up at my best friend's house, and her mother had just bought 4 boxes of Girl Scout cookies, and I ate them all in my sleep. To this day, she tells me so. No, I wouldn't have changed it. How boring. How boring. I'd much rather— what is it, that line in Parenthood where the grandmother stands up and she's talking about the roller coaster and how— going on the carousel. She talks about the difference. Do you know what I'm talking about?

I don't.

There's a beautiful moment in the movie where she talks about, and it just goes round and round, but the roller coaster scares you to death. And she talks about all of it. And it's such a great part because it would have been so boring For me, I love high energy, and— but I do love the simplicity too. So I'm gonna work more on that. That's my goal as I have my birthday, is to find the simpler things. And Kaliya is helping me do that.

Good.

Yeah.

You want to end this with a prayer?

Absolutely.

You want to say it?

I do, I do actually. Um, Lord Jesus, thank you for this opportunity to be fully present. Thank you for, uh, this show. It's doing great things. I'm just so grateful that I could be a part of the today. Thank you for all the people in this building and all their gifts. Thank you for the truth, the hard truth. Thank you for the opportunity to heal and to spend more time with you. Thank you for, um, my daughter. Her name is Grace. Thank you for your grace and your mercy.

Amen.

Thank you that we live in the greatest country in the world. And thank you for the opportunity to sit here and to be willing to be vulnerable. I know that you'll honor that. I believe. I believe. I continue to believe. Thank you for my dear friend, Sean. And thank you, Lord, for the opportunity to reach many people out there and to help in any way we can. We are servants, and we thank you for the opportunity to use our voices and to have choices. And above all else, thank you for your Son, or thank you for being the Son who died for all of us.

Amen.

So that we could be free and live forever in eternity. Amen.

Amen.

You're not doing that.

Why don't I? I just want to pray for you and your husband. And your family, and your granddaughter, and your daughter. Keep your son safe.

Yes.

Keep you guys safe on your tour.

Yes.

And I just want to pray that, that our talk today can help parents who are struggling with a, with a child with addiction and Kids who are having to grow up way too fast because of absent parents and people that are trying to overcome loved ones who've committed suicide and—

That's right.

Any of the other hardships that we talked about. And I just want to say thank you to you. For being so vulnerable and courageous. Thank you. And open. And I love you.

I love you too, friend.

Amen.

Amen. Yay, we did it!

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