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Katarina Schultz.
Sean Ryan.
Welcome back.
Thank you for having me back.
Thanks for coming back. You've been busy.
Truly.
How many places have you been? When, when is the first— we met like 2 years ago, I think.
No, we met last year.
Was it last year?
A little over a year ago. Yeah.
Wow. How many places have you been since then? Do you even count them?
I actually couldn't tell you off the top of my head. Everywhere, it feels like. Yeah, I can't tell you off the top of my head. There's been so much.
Where's your favorite place you've been?
In the last year?
Yeah.
Ukraine.
Really?
Yeah. I love Eastern Europe. And I was really interested in the war and doing the certain stories that I went to do that I felt like didn't have any coverage. So, and everyone was so kind. Like, it was a very different experience for me.
Interesting. Well, I mean, it's not surprising that's your favorite place, especially with the conversation we just had prior to being on air here, that your first passion is being a war correspondent.
That was the goal.
Well, here, let me give you an interdo— excuse me, an interdo? An introduction. You're a former traditional journalist who realized you had to get out of the newsroom to understand what was really happening on the ground. Now based in Mexico City, you report on cartels, organized crime, and political corruption through your work in Borderland Dispatches, often traveling directly into the regions where these stories are unfolding. Today, you're back to share updates on some of our past discussions and break down your latest reporting from the field. Welcome back.
Thanks.
All right, so since we last spoke, I know you've spent a ton of time in Ukraine, but If you remember right, I think we opened the show last time with this Valeria Marquez.
Valeria Marquez.
Valeria Marquez.
When we spoke about that, people— it really popped off. People wanted to know more.
So this is just a recap for the audience.
Okay.
She was, uh, what, a TikTok influencer?
She was a TikTok influencer. She also Instagram, did like beauty pageants and stuff, uh, pretty well known across Mexico and particularly in Guadalajara. And she was shot 3 times, murdered on TikTok Live, uh, last year, over a year ago now. Uh, and for the longest time, it wasn't until last month someone was officially accused by the Mexican government for putting the hit on her. Uh, prior to that, the United States government actually gave their own accusation, so to speak. They said that El Doble R, a major figure, uh, high in the ranks in CGNG, the Jalisco New Generation Cartel, was responsible for it. They sanctioned him, did all that business, the OFAC list. And then Mexico denied that, and Mexico said they were still investigating. And then Just recently, Mexico arrested R1, high-ranking member within, uh, the Rs. Everyone kind of has an R name in, uh, CJNG.
Why is that?
It's, it's just that sort of subcell of CJNG in a way. Los Rs. R1, R2, R3.
So these are like call signs?
Yep, call signs. Um, and so they arrested this individual for the murder of Carlos Manso, a, uh, mayor of a town in Michoacán who was very outspoken against cartels and the violence, uh, and he was murdered in broad daylight. It was an assassination very similar to Valeria's assassination. So R1 was arrested, uh, for that murder. And then Omar Garcia Harfuch, the Secretary of Security of Mexico did a press conference saying, you know, we've finally taken someone into custody, uh, for not only their ties with this major criminal organization but for the murder particularly of Carlos Manso. Now we are looking for his son, who they believe, uh, put the hit on Valeria Marquez. And, uh, this young man was in a romantic relationship with Valeria Marquez. Actually, Luis Chaparro went to Mexico and interviewed this guy who's hiding from authorities right now.
Really?
Mm-hmm.
How do you feel about that, interviewing somebody that's hiding from authorities? Do you feel like there is— have you done that?
I've definitely interviewed criminals who, who have— who are being looked for, yes.
Do you feel any type of responsibility to give them up. Yeah.
And not my job.
Not your job.
And here's the thing, right? If I can get to them, or other journalists can get to these individuals, how is law enforcement unable to get to them?
Good point.
Right? So especially in Mexico, it's definitely a level of, of— I don't know, it's, it's a, it's a lack of motivation to, to get the the bad guy.
Why do you think the— I mean, if these guys are wanted so bad, you know what I mean? And I know Luis very well.
Yeah. And, uh, did you watch the interview?
I didn't even know he did it. I've lost touch with him.
Yeah, it's like a— it's like a 40-minute long interview. He went, um, even documented getting there. He, he actually called me when the contact was first made between him and, and the accused. And was like, I think that I'm gonna be able to interview this guy because— and he let me know because I had obviously been doing a ton of reporting and following the Valeria case. And I was like, can I go with you? And he's like, I don't think so. This is very much, uh, keep it low-key, and this guy wants to clear his name. And my first question was, how safe do you feel? Like, do you trust that this isn't a setup? Right. Because there's a lot of violence against journalists in Mexico, especially against individuals like us who are particularly focused on organized crime in the cartels and, you know, shady government officials. And he was like— I, I think he told me he was kind of 50/50. He was leaning towards more that it was, it was legit interview, uh, but that it was worth the risk. And I fully agreed with that. Uh, so he went and, and spoke to this individual.
I watched the interview. This kid wants to clear his name and says that he was in a relationship with Valeria, but he would never kill her. He actually cared about her. And he was living in an apartment building really close to the beauty salon, her beauty salon, where she was murdered in. Because, you know, if for people watching who don't know, She was on live in her beauty salon and she was getting messages that she was going to receive gifts that day, which wasn't uncommon for Valeria. A lot of people liked her. A lot of people had crushes on her. She was a really attractive young girl. And she first, she receives 2 gifts. First receives a gift, a delivery driver on a motorcycle comes and brings her Starbucks and then brings her a pig teddy bear, like a stuffed animal, a pig, which right off the bat, bad sign in Mexico.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, you know, there's a lot of times where hits are taken out or people are assassinated and a pig head— doesn't happen so much anymore, but perhaps in like early 2010s, a pig head would be left there to signal that that Murdered person was a rat or you know dirty puerco. So she gets that, doesn't really clock it, but she does start to say in this live, "I'm worried. I'm nervous. I feel like something's wrong." She says at one point, "I think they're gonna levantarme. They're gonna kidnap me." And at the same time, her best friend Vivian is texting her, telling her. Don't— because she wanted to end the live, and her best friend is telling her, don't leave, wait, there's a really expensive gift coming for you. And Valeria says in the livestream, ooh, an expensive gift, un regalo costoso. She says that. Uh, and then the delivery guy— you can't see what's happening outside of the salon because her camera, her phone is facing her, and there's a wall behind her, but she's looking outside of the salon. And I guess she sees that the delivery guy is coming and she mutes the live.
And at that point, the individual comes in and shoots her 3 times and she dies holding the pig stuffed animal. And, um, in, in this interview with the individual who's accused of killing her or putting the hit on her, he says that— he loved her, that they had fights, but he never would have killed her. And there was documented conflict and toxicity in, in her relationship with him. She posted screenshots on her Instagram story of how someone she was in a relationship with was threatening her in messages, saying, you don't want to find out what kind of guy I become or what I'm capable of when you piss me off. And I think if I remember correctly, in the interview Did Luis bring that up in the interview? Yeah.
What did he say to that?
About the threats and stuff? And, and, uh, I don't know if he said explicitly those messages, but he brought up the toxicity, or how she had claimed one time that when she showed up to a nightclub that he was at, he got her kicked out. And, um, the, the accused says, you know, we're just like 2 young people in love, and it's part of a toxic relationship. Of course we had conflict like any relationship, but Never to the point where I would want her to be killed, is what he said. But I mean, when you— and he says that she knew what family he came from, uh, and that, you know, she knew his dad, his parents, his family, uh, and vice versa. He knew hers. But I think I mean, my opinion doesn't matter on this case, but when you're talking about someone who, you know, he claims that he cared about her and never wanted her to die and that it should have never resulted in that, then go to the authorities, speak your truth, you know?
So was that R1 he interviewed?
No, R1's son.
R1's son.
So R1 is accused of killing Carlos Manso. And in the same breath, his son was accused of asking R1 to send someone to kill Valeria.
Is R1's son affiliated? I mean, is he active in the cartels, or is he just, you know, got a relation to R1?
Well, he says no, and that, you know, it's his family, and he— you know, what everyone does is their business type of thing. But read between the lines.
Why do you think, you know, when these guys are wanted, I can— I could see this guy because he wants people to think He's innocent.
He wants to clear his name.
But let's just go back. I mean, you've interviewed guys that are wanted by the— by authorities. What are they doing? Like, that's just shitty tradecraft to me. Why are they talking to investigative journalists? Why are they not undercover all the time? Well, is that the ego? Do they just want to see themselves in the media?
Ego is part of it, but, um, a big part too is getting their version out. It's PR. And, you know, we've seen this time and time again, uh, with cartels. They're big into PR. They'll put out sort of their own, like, press releases, um, whether that be like they'll start circulating an official document, or when they put the narco banners around the city or near dead bodies. Um, that's PR for them. They're sending messages to the public. Um, even you'll see videos, uh, The Cartel del Noreste is really, uh, known for this, where they'll set up a camera. CJNG does this too. They'll set up a camera and you'll have all the armed operatives of the cartel and then one guy in the middle announcing a message, saying something. They did that for a lot of, like, big news stories that came out, painting them in a really bad light. to kind of clear their names or clarify the details of whatever they're doing.
Mm-hmm.
And then when it comes to speaking to journalists, it's of course a combination of, uh, PR. So, you know, for like, for this accused killer of Valeria, now there's this interview of him speaking his so-called truth, right?
Mm-hmm.
So he can kind of, in his hopes, clear his name. Uh, give his side of the story. But also, it sends a message of, yeah, ego and power. Catch me if you can. You know, there's this manhunt for me, and I'm sitting here comfortable speaking to a journalist on camera for the world to see.
I wonder, I mean, why don't you think that How bad do you think they really want these guys?
Who, Mexico or the US?
Either one. I mean, it seems like it'd be pretty simple. Maybe not you, but money talks. You know, it would be pretty simple to flip a journalist or introduce—
It happens a lot in Mexico.
Introduce a fake news organization and build rapport through time. Like, oh, Look at all these articles Reporter A has done since, well, started today, 2026. Then a couple years go by and it's just, you know what I mean? And then you can use this army of undercover journalists to feed these guys' ego to find out where they are. Done. I mean, I don't think it would take long to replace, you know, to replace the leadership. I mean, if there was a point in time during the Global War on Terror, where I think the number 2 had like a— we were killing the number 2 every 2 weeks.
Yeah. Which is happening now again.
You know what I mean? So I don't think it would be any different with the cartel. But still, I mean, it's a— it makes people, you know what I mean? It shows we can get to you.
Well, I would hope that they don't start using journalists as like ploys like that, because I would not get any access and my life would be in danger. So.
You know what I mean, though, right?
Yeah.
That's why I'm asking. Like, it can't be— if you're getting to them, them, and Chaparro is getting to them, and all these other journalists. I mean, they can't be that hard to get to. You just have to build some type of a presence to feed that ego.
Yeah, that too. Um, I think also because, you know, I have a really good track record of— well, a clear one— of being able to speak with victims and perpetrators, high-level individuals, and they don't get caught afterwards. You know, I'm not like leading Mm-hmm. Them into like a trap. Uh, that's actually my biggest fear. Like, if that were to ever happen, I'm super careful about that. I'm more scared of that than just getting shot dead, like set up. Um, but I think when you ask, you know, how badly do they want them, Mexico doesn't want them badly. They— cartels make up so much of Mexico's economy. You eradicate cartels, you eradicate the Mexican economy. Point blank. And so many high-level politicians, ranking officials that are on the payroll that directly benefit off of organized crime, why would they want that to end?
Mm-hmm. I mean, it makes sense. It does make sense. So what is the— let's switch gears here a little bit. What's the landscape like down there? Who's in charge now? There's always a battle. So it's like a full-scale war down there.
I mean, it really is. Did you see what I posted yesterday? There were, um, car bombs and IEDs going off in Zacatecas, Mexico, because there's a very active cell of CJNG in Zacatecas called Fuerzas Zacatecas Nueva Generación, so New Generation Zacatecas Forces. It's a subcell of CJNG, and there's someone who I've actually been— who's kind of on my radar within that cell, who's been really quickly climbing through the ranks of power. And it's very clear that this cell of CJNG is becoming a very violent and powerful one.
Before we go into—
Sorry, I get—
No, no, no, I don't—
The landscape.
Don't let me forget that either. Yeah, the landscape. I mean, I think last time, if I remember correctly, it seemed— I think it was Sinaloa.
Yes.
It was kind of running everything.
So no, it was— when I spoke to you last time, it was CJNG, and Sinaloa was already fully in their whole civil war, the infighting. Um, and now it's of course CJNG, extremely powerful, and they're essentially absorbing the Chapitos faction of the Sinaloa Cartel, El Chapo's faction, because they made an alliance, an alliance with them. fighting against the Mayos Mayito Flacos faction of the Sinaloa Cartel. Um, and when I was in Sinaloa this summer, I went to Culiacán and across Sinaloa for a couple of weeks just to kind of get the 2-year update since El Mayo was captured. Sean, it was like you're just— you're not walking in a city, you're walking in a morgue, okay?
Sheesh.
From the moment I got there, I drove from Mazatlán to Culiacán because I wanted to go through the towns and kind of try to get a grasp of who's controlling which areas because it's ever evolving. And when you're going through these small towns, you're taking that highway from Mazatlán to Culiacán. And I took the old highway, not the new highway, so it's like, I guess in layman's terms, like more dangerous, like just a really understand it, you can see who's controlling there. You know, you'll see the white sombreros, which represent, okay, this area, Mayito's faction. Um, and, and I drove through there. As soon as I touched down in Culiacán, uh, you know, I let all my journalist friends over there— incredible journalists over there, fucking fearless— I told them, you know, I'm coming, like, keep me in the loop. with any big activity. As soon as I got there, they're like, all right, there has been a murder. You want to pull up? It was far. I didn't end up going. And then there was another one, and then there was another one. So within the first 4 hours that I got to Culiacán, I think I went to 6 different crime scenes.
Oh.
I posted that video on my YouTube channel, and you just see me going from one scene to the next to the next, and As the clips go on, you know, the sun is just going down and it's just constant. It was brutal. And, um, at a lot of these scenes, you know, family is outside distraught, crying. And I showed that in my video and, and some people gave me flack. They were like, you're so insensitive. You know, this is the reality of it. And I think a lot of the times The collateral victims of war and cartel violence are, you know, these family members. They're also victims of murder in a way. Their lives change forever. And it's very— I mean, you've probably seen it. One thing that really gets me, it's not seeing the dead body. People ask, like, how do you see the dead body? It's not about that. What I find to be the most jarring is when you literally see the shift In the victims' families, you literally watch the realization happen in real time that their lives will never be the same again. Like, tonight is my first night without my son for the rest of my life.
Mm-hmm.
And, and they witnessed him get killed. But a lot of these murders— well, most of them in Sinaloa, uh, these victims are involved in organized crime.
It's—
this civil war continues on, um, and a lot of the people being murdered now are people who are switching sides. So a lot of people have switched from Chapito's faction to Mayo's faction, Mayito Flaco's faction, and those people are the ones being targeted heavily.
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It takes 2 minutes to apply. I suggest you check it out. Again, head to justaddbuei.com/sean and use code SRS. Well, that's interesting you bring switching sides up because that's, that's where I wanted to go with this. How often are you seeing power exchange in Mexico, but from, from prominent cartel to prominent cartel.
I can't even keep up with it right now.
Okay, so they own the vast majority of politicians down there, run off the cartels, of course. And so what I want to know is, how are they, how are they navigating that? How are politicians down there who are for sale which sounds like it's pretty much all of them, not unlike the U.S. It's a lot of them. I mean, how do they know when to switch sides? Or are they getting killed all the time? Because that can be obviously a very tricky game, especially if prominent cartel gets taken over by another cartel and then this one comes back.
What do you do?
Exactly.
So, okay, great example of this is Rubén Rocha Moya, governor of Sinaloa. I think last time I was on your podcast, I said this guy is the most corrupt motherfucker ever. And he was just indicted by the US a couple months ago. Um, this is someone who has had a very strong alliance with the Chapitos faction of the Sinaloa Cartel, with El Chapo. Um, and he has been profiting off of it for a long time. openly at the cost of the people in that state. Now, to kind of paint you a picture, he was having a sort of dispute with a state legislator in Sinaloa. This was right before El Mayo was captured, and this was kind of part of the whole bigger picture. of how the Sinaloa Cartel, or how El Chapo's faction at least, and his family are going to move forward and be protected. So when El Mayo was captured, it was because he was set up by El Chapo's son to go to a meeting to resolve the conflict between the governor of Sinaloa, Rocha Moya, and this state legislator. his name escapes me right now. When he gets there, he allegedly gets beaten up, and then he ends up on that small aircraft that lands him, uh, in Santa Teresa, New Mexico, where he's taken in by the FBI.
Rocha Moya walked out of that meeting alive and continued to be governor of Sinaloa. The legislator was murdered during that encounter. So I think what a lot of these politicians are doing, they're playing the game as far as they can get, to the point where I think a lot of them at this point particularly, their hands are sort of tied. I'm not defending them by any means. I hate these guys.
Mm-hmm.
But their hands are tied in the sense of they can't move too much to the left or too much to the right or talk to this guy or do this action because they will get murdered. So yeah, it's—
Do they have a choice? I mean, are there— are they interested in monetary value, you know, and being paid off? Are they interested in just keeping their lives?
You know what my belief about this is? Hot take: if you're going to become a politician in Mexico, and you want to be a good politician, either fucking stand your ground and be willing to die for it and be good, or don't do it. Because the only other option is you're doing it either with the incentive to make dirty money and be on the payroll, or you're doing it scared and haphazardly and, and accepting the pay or doing what they want, and you're a bad politician.
Mm-hmm.
And everyone's suffering because of it.
I mean, I guess there's no surprises either at this point. I mean, it's, it's pretty obvious, you know, what you're walking into. Of course it is.
Of course.
Are there any legit politicians down there?
I think, you know, Carlos Manso was one of them. Uh, that was someone who really took a stand against organized crime. Lili Téllez, she's in, um, in the Senate, I believe. She's a Mexican politician. She really speaks out against organized crime, and she'll call out these corrupt officials by name. But they're very few and far in between. And the reason for that is because when the president of the country herself is profiting off of organized crime and allowing it to happen, how can anyone else at a lower level be clean?
Good point. So let's move back to— you were talking about somebody that you were interested in that's been rising through the ranks.
Ah, yeah. So Zacatecas has become a hot— well, I mean, Zacatecas was always known as a big cartel hotspot. And anytime that I go there or pitch a story to do over there, no one wants me to go because everyone thinks I'm going to die. Hasn't happened yet, touch wood. But there's a lot going on there, and I find that Zacatecas is a really good region to kind of understand the greater landscape of not only CJNG's control of the state, but cartels in general. Like, what we're seeing in Zacatecas is that CJNG has this stronghold, and they're— because of their alliance, but because of just who they are, they're fighting against Mayos faction of Sinaloa Cartel operating in Zacatecas. This subcell formed and it has now become extremely powerful, um, the New Generation Zacatecas forces, where they're— they are just killing and, and waging war against Mayito Flaco's faction of the cartel and any of the Mayos operating in Zacatecas, but also law enforcement, and they actually killed a police officer yesterday. I think it was just one. It may have been more, but there was one for sure. And they're really showing their power there.
And a lot of these guys were actually with the Metros under El Sapo, who's also a major figure within CJNG. So I know this, it's a lot of names and words, but it's important because it shows how all of these subcells and groups, especially pertaining to CJNG, are in a way connected. And because of how these subcells and, and certain high-ranking plaza bosses or, um, commanders within CJNG have their own loyal followings, that has has been what's perpetuated this overall control that CJNG has gained across all of Mexico. And that's a big part of why when El Mencho was captured, killed in February, we didn't see like this huge, um, breakdown of CJNG and, and infighting and extreme violence. I mean, you know, there was like a blip of buses were on fire, National Guard was getting attacked, but we weren't seeing like this restructurization and house of cards falling in of CJNG, which could have been expected considering their leader, the kingpin, was taken out. But because there are so many strong entities within CJNG and it's operating like a Fortune 500 with major figures with their own loyal followings, The amount of control and power they have over so much of the population and the country, it's hard to even grasp it.
Who would— I mean, when you're talking about subsidies to major cartels, I mean, why even have subsidies under different names? Why don't they just absorb them under the same name?
Okay, from my understanding, the, the reason why they do it is to maintain strong, loyal, and intact territorial control within smaller regions, right?
Okay.
The naming thing has to do with who's the leader and to know, like, okay, this group commits an act. Yes, we are CG&G, but that's us, you know? It's not just the broader CJNG. Does that make sense?
No.
It doesn't?
Can you re— I mean, I'm thinking of it like Hells Angels, the Mongols.
Okay.
Uh, the Gambino crime family, like all these other organized crime organizations, to my knowledge, they're all, they're all under one hierarchy.
Yep.
Correct. And then you have the Los Angeles chapter, the San Antonio chapter, the Chicago chapter, the DC chapter, the Miami chapter, but they all fall under One conglomerate.
It is kind of like that in the sense— so when we're talking about FZNG, the Zacatecas forces, that, that subcell, they're responsible for certain trafficking pipelines, certain amount of control in that region, paying off specific politicians and law enforcement. And so in a way even though they're part of this great organization, they're also running their own independent operations that still are benefiting the greater organization.
Okay.
Is that better?
Makes sense.
Okay, sorry, sometimes I get lost in the sauce, you know? I'm so in the weeds with it, you know? Sometimes someone who has no knowledge will ask me like, hey, so yeah, the cartel, and it's just like a million miles a minute. Like, what the hell are you talking about?
So who oversees the entire thing? Is there one person that oversees the entire thing?
Yeah, it's, it's Zero Three now. It's El Mencho's stepson. He's— he was, um—
How does he ensure his vision's being played out over that many different organizations?
Because he has good relationships with other high commanders who have it. You know, it's like a, like a higher— like a triangle, right? You'll have him at the top, and then you've got these top commanders, and then you've got the plaza bosses, and then you've got so-and-so down here and sub-cell leader and, uh, miscellaneous individuals even lower, right? That message is always getting passed through. And the higher up you go, those individuals— plaza bosses, commanders— are ensuring that people are acting in line. Everyone underneath is doing what the boss wants.
Do you ever see any subsidiary cartels move in as kind of a Trojan horse to take down the entire— do you see what I'm saying?
Yes, but so far that has not happened with CJNG.
But you have seen it before?
It's, it's definitely happened, and that's why we see factions splinter off and cartels completely dissolve and new ones are created.
I mean, like, Los Zetas do not exist anymore, but those are the guys that were the All special ops guys, supposedly, right?
And, and most, like, the head guys are now in the United States. They were part of the, the first fugitive transfer, Zeta 40. And yeah, they were very violent. They were the special forces guys, the ops guys. But, um, and they're trained by U.S. forces. Um, but back to the, the splintering off, that does happen where one massive organization will sort of have subcells emerging, and now it's more localized loyalty as opposed to, like, the kingpin.
Mm-hmm.
And so if that individual says, you know what, eff it, I'm gonna start my own cartel, they can go and do that. And there will be a lot of bloodshed associated with that, and, and, you know, kind of all-out war at times. But if they're successful, then they're starting their own operation and they're making their own contacts, or they already had contacts with the Colombians and the Guatemalans and the Americans and even the Canadians, right? And the ports in Spain. So they can do that. We haven't seen that happen with CJNG yet. However, I believe that there are 2 significant figures high up within CJNG who I could picture being— could splitting off and starting their own thing in a near future. I'm not 100% about that, but I have seen and been told some things from sources that there's a little bit of conflict. It dies down pretty quick. There's a difference in opinion or how things should run. And those 2 individuals respectively have their own significant loyal followings and territories that they control. So if they really wanted to, they could. However, being a unified organization means more money.
That makes sense. I mean, I would imagine the rift inside each cartel is pretty bad, too.
There was a big rift when El Mencho was killed, and it was, it was hard for me to verify it at first. But look, I'm not doing this to be dramatic. I just, I don't want to give too many details because, you know, I go back to Mexico and I—
Oh, I do. You know? Yeah.
Um, but there was someone very high-ranking within CGNG, a known figure, who after El Mencho was killed really wanted to up the ante on the violence and to send some pretty wicked messages. And another high-ranking member said, absolutely not, squash that shit. And, and it ended there. But I think that was kind of like— that really did it for me. It was like a telltale sign.
Okay.
Uh, motivations might be changing, ideologies are shifting here. Not everyone is fully on the same page, and there's been a lot of change in this organization because El Mencho was the leader, and now it's his stepson, Cero Tres, which essentially means that there's been this resurgence of the Millennial Cartel. CGNG is essentially run by the Queenies, the Valencia family, who were the ones who started trafficking, exporting cocaine into the United States. They had those Colombian connections and they had the pathways into the United States because they were, um, exporting avocados from Michoacán. And now this is the very family that always had the money behind CG&G, but now they are also the muscle.
Wow. That's interesting. I was going to bring up, you know, what are— every time I talk to you or Luis or Ed, it seems like the business lines change, you know?
Because it always is.
So, I mean, I don't want to lose this question either, so we'll get to that. But how much— you're talking about just mass violence. I mean, you went to— where did you— Sinaloa, I think you said, and you saw 6 murders in the first 4 hours. And that's just you. I'm sure there's plenty of other murders that are happening simultaneously.
100%.
What— I mean, what— what do you have any idea? What's the estimation of how much of the Mexican population is involved at a low level, at a high level, just involved on, on the cartel's payroll, from the street lookout people to the, the, to the assassins, to the politicians? I mean, Is it the entire country?
That's a big one.
Is there anybody that's not involved?
Of course. Yeah. I have some really great friends who are not involved.
So you think.
No, no, there's, there's definitely a lot of people who are not, but the vast majority have some sort of nexus to the organized crime. And it makes sense, right? Like, if we're looking—
You say over 50%?
Yeah, I was gonna say that. Definitely over 50%.
Would you say over 75%?
I don't know. I don't know. But it's a lot more than half. If we're looking at it from an economy perspective, the cartels are the 3rd largest employer in Mexico, I think.
What's number one? I'm surprised it's not—
Probably agriculture. That's a great question. I'm going to sound like a dumbass because I actually don't have this off the top of my head, but I know that they're in the top 5 of, of probably top 3 of, um, employers, which— how do you even quantify that?
I don't know if it is. I don't know if you can do it.
No. Yeah, but it's when you're then including, okay, politicians on the payroll, um, law enforcement. So people who— and when I mean law enforcement, people who are not actively trafficking drugs or arms, um, but rather just simplest of it, turning a blind eye, looking the other way. Inherently then, you are part of organized crime, right?
Mm-hmm.
But you're not technically a criminal. So it's certainly over 50%. It's definitely a really disheartening percentage.
I mean, it is. It just makes me like, what hope do they have?
The hope is that the culture is beautiful when you look past all of this.
Okay.
You're like, shut the hell up.
So what— are there other South Central American countries that aren't overtaken by this? How, how far into Central South America is this?
Oh, very deep.
Is this infiltrated?
It goes— okay, so Guatemala, big part of it. Okay, they're consumed. Um, Ecuador, same. Um, and then it goes low. Colombia, Venezuela, Peru, Brazil even. So the connections—
Influenced by Mexican cartel?
Or at least have connections with them. You know what's interesting? You bring up the influence of that. So when I went to Colombia in January, I went right when Maduro was captured, uh, because I wanted to get into Venezuela and they'd closed their airspace. So I went to Cúcuta, which is a small town in Colombia right along the Venezuelan border. And Cúcuta, at one point in time, especially when, um, El Chapo was, you know, still free and running the Sinaloa Cartel, uh, was a major hotspot for Chapo's operators. And a lot of, you know, even his family members, his nephews and major commanders within the Sinaloa Cartel were going to Cúcuta to run operations from within Colombia. And it's not too far from Catatumbo, which is where you'll see those, uh, hectares of coca plant grow-ups. I actually took a helicopter ride to see, and all you see are just coca leaves for miles and miles. And so the presence isn't really there as much anymore since 2010. And when I went there, there is so much even cultural influence from Mexico because of the time when the Mexican cartels were using this as like a hub for trafficking cocaine.
Wow.
So I— and I think that paints a really good picture when you ask me of, you know, what's the influence, uh, further south in South America and deeper in Latin America of the cartels. Well, they've been around for so long, and, and their ties and nexus to these countries and the individuals operating within them is so strong that they've even managed cultural influence over them. Uh, you go to this small bar in the middle of nowhere along the Colombian-Venezuelan border, and they're playing regional Mexican music, and everybody knows the words.
Wow.
And they're even dressing with that sort of cartel guy swagger, the style. Yeah.
That's interesting.
I— it was— it shocked me to see it. I wasn't expecting that. I actually didn't know, had no idea it would be like that.
So what are the— what are the— what are the lines of business? I mean, so far, everything. I mean, it— that's— it does— it seems like everything. I mean, obviously fentanyl, cocaine, drugs, probably marijuana. We know that stuff. I don't even know, is that— is that stuff still the primary focus? Because I— it was either you or Luis last time I talked to you guys. They were taking over the water supplies.
Mm-hmm.
They were taking over the avocado farms. Then there's human trafficking, crude oil theft, crude oil, which I would imagine. I mean, so what is there any— and the whole point of this was to appear legit, correct?
Of course, it's to appear legit and to diversify the portfolio. Yeah, the revenue.
Are there any new sources of revenue?
Is the entire water supply under I think we talked about this last time, that they were also monopolizing, um, like Wi-Fi, providing Wi-Fi internet services in smaller towns. For the most part, they're not doing this in like major cities, but yeah, smaller towns, they'll go and they'll cut, um, the Wi-Fi wires. In small towns in Mexico too, it's, it's not like wireless. And so they're going, cutting it up, putting up their own, and then going door to door and being like, now you're gonna pay me and I'm gonna provide you the Wi-Fi. Um, crude oil, we spoke about. That's, that's a big one. And here's the thing, um, because sometimes I see people say, well, you know, we have to end the demand for drugs in order to end the cartels. That's a complete fallacy because it doesn't matter whether drugs exist or not if they are profiting off of almost every good or service that they can take to the black market and make it profitable. Because crude oil, is not a black market good, right? It's what makes the world go round. But when these guys are tapping into state-run pipelines in Mexico, stealing the crude oil, and then driving it across the U.S. and selling it to, you know, mom-and-pop refineries for half the price than if they were to purchase it legally, that becomes a black market good.
Mm-hmm. The avocados, same thing. And you know, that's been going on for ages, but that's also because of the region in which, uh, avocados grow in Mexico, in Michoacán. It's a major cartel hotspot. And actually, just a few months ago, the US like momentarily stopped the avocado, um, import-exports from, from Michoacán because of how extreme the cartel violence had gotten. and how many— how so many of the local farmers and, and agriculture producers were under extreme threats of their lives and of their livelihoods. And it's really sad. And I'm not sure if I said last time, but, you know, avocados is not— it's not an easy thing to grow. It can take like 30 years to grow a Hass avocado tree. You know, this is people's lives. It's a generational trade. And then you have guys coming in armored in armed vehicles saying, I'm gonna fucking kill you, or you're gonna pay me a quota, which is typically 80% of how much these farmers are earning.
Sheesh.
How do you even survive? How do you support your family? How do you support your crop if 80% of your revenue is going to extortion fees? Or if you can't pay that, this is no longer your land. We own it and we run it. So people are fleeing, leaving their generationally owned avocado orchards, Or they're being murdered, or they're paying an extortion fee to the point where they lose their livelihoods entirely. So yes, every single method has been has been taken over by them, and of course, in order for that to happen, it goes back into what you were saying earlier. That directly ties back to the ignorant. politicians who allow it to happen and who are profiting off of it. Because that's one thing that I really believe that there could be a crackdown on and say, listen, you guys want to traffic your drugs and your arms, leave the farmers alone, you know, leave the, the pipe, the oil lines alone. That stuff stays legal. But they don't do that. I mean, Great example of this, of just how high it goes. Um, Miss Universe— she's— Mexico was Miss Universe, right? Her father is a high executive in Pemex because Mexico's oil is state-run, Pemex.
And he's been accused— I don't know whether or not it's formal, if it actually was taken to court— of, uh, a $700 million contract with the— one of the, the main execs of the Miss Universe competition, because he's also very involved in Mexican politics. They had a 700 million peso contract which just so happened during— to come to fruition during the Miss Universe contract. And this individual Uh, is actually in Mexico now, in Mexico's federal witness protection program, because he was accused of trafficking crude oil, stealing it, trafficking it, and arms. And so we're— now we're talking about organizations that go so beyond, even bypass Mexico. And Miss Universe has me blocked on Instagram.
Yeah. Wow. But I just, I don't, um—
How do you dismantle that?
I don't. It's kind of what I was getting at. I mean, it almost seems like there's no hope for them.
It goes so—
Even as a politician. I mean, what you're saying, well over 50% of the people, the population down there, you said less than 75%, but more than 50%.
I mean, that's because I don't want to be inaccurate, but—
It's a big gap though, what I'm saying. And that's a lot of people. A lot of people. Why did the U.S. turn the flow of avocados back?
Because they turned it back on.
Yeah, why did they turn it back on?
There actually wasn't a reason for it, but I guess I would assume that, you know, violence decreased. Doubt it, but I mean, if I were to send a press inquiry, that's probably the answer I would get.
What other kind of international trade are they involved in other than avocados? Obviously oil. What other countries are partaking?
What other countries are partaking?
I mean, these are legitimate businesses that I don't know how many people realize or know what's run by the cartel over there. I don't know if they know the water supply, the avocado trade. Everybody thinks cartels, they think drugs, drugs, humans, drugs, human trafficking.
Yeah. And, you know, the focus lately, especially during this administration, it's been so heavily placed on fentanyl. And if we look at official numbers from both the US and Mexico, it seems like, you know, fentanyl seizures at the border have gone down. I have a hard time trusting those numbers because how can you quantify seizures? Like, how do you know what is getting through? Like, you can know what isn't, but— You know what I mean? Um, but cocaine is getting through at unprecedented numbers because the focus was so heavy on fentanyl that cocaine was kind of left in, in this area of, okay, let's just keep pushing it.
All different levers.
Yes. And the United States is certainly losing the war on cocaine by a landslide.
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See the site for details. Tacova's. Point your toes west. Do you ever wonder what it takes to make an episode of the Sean Ryan Show? In this exclusive studio tour, I'm taking you behind the scenes for an in-depth look at every part of the operation, from the editing room in the main studio to the spaces where we film range day content and more. You'll see how the show comes together, meet some of the people behind it, and get a closer look at the work that happens off camera. When you become a Paid member of the SRS Patreon community, you get more than just the podcast. Watch new episodes early alongside other members, join monthly live shows with guest Q&As, and submit questions just like you see on the show for upcoming guests on the Protector tier. You'll also unlock exclusive range day videos, behind-the-scenes content, and premium ambience videos that you're not gonna find anywhere else. Join the Patreon community today and get access to the full experience. All right, Katarina, we're kind of talking about international trade and legitimate businesses and how they've bled into Central South America. How have they bled into the US?
Mm-hmm.
Have they bled into the US?
Of course, yeah. Without the US, I don't think cartels would be successful, to be honest. Uh, whether that's, of course, through the obvious, like drug consumption, uh, but also they are the ones purchasing stolen crude oil, the avocados, you know. Uh, I think all 3 of us, Ed, Luis, and I, have all said it, that like the Super Bowl is like a great day if you're a cartel operative who profits off of, uh, stolen avocados, which a lot of this is directly linking, of course, to the U.S. And there are certainly significant cartel operatives residing in the U.S. One important thing to mention, the new leader of CJNG, Cero Tres, El Mencho's stepson, is an American citizen. He was born in Santa Ana, California. And this is really the first time where a major kingpin is a— is an American citizen. It's supposed to make that harder for U.S. authorities who are, you know, applying the kingpin strategy left, right, and center when it comes to Mexican cartels, just because of intelligence gathering, right? Technically, the CIA can't do that, but he's also running a foreign terrorist organization, so...
Mm-hmm.
It's gray no matter how you look at it. But another, you know, I know we say the humans, the human trafficking, the sex trafficking is a major operation, particularly too for CGNG. CGNG doesn't really touch fentanyl the way the Sinaloa Cartel does because fentanyl production was created by, allegedly, Iván Archivaldo, El Chapo's son. He was the one that got in touch with the Chinese cooks, figured out that this synthetic, easy-to-make drug, very highly addictive, potent drug, would be very profitable for them. CJNG, however, focuses more on meth, cocaine, human trafficking. And I never really wanted to cover human trafficking or sex trafficking. Um, for the very selfish reason of it's very hard to talk about, hear about, is it's, um, very tragic.
Mm-hmm.
And a lot of, uh, the work is tragic, but this is something where you feel like you cannot make anything better, and you're talking to victim after victim who has been brutalized by sex trafficking. You want to die. And so this summer I did a whole story on how human sex trafficking in Mexico directly links to the United States and how a lot of the major individuals responsible for trafficking women from central and southern Mexico and even further down in South America are these, these men in control or family networks, I guess. are actually operating from the United States, um, and they're going into these small towns and they're luring and recruiting women and bringing them to border towns, and some of them bringing them into the United States where they're working at clandestine bars, uh, as sex workers.
Sheesh.
And they were misled to be there. They didn't know that they were going to have to provide sexual services against their will. And most of the clientele, at least from the women that I spoke to who got out of it or are still in it, unfortunately, uh, especially along borders and obviously in the United States, they say that most of their clientele are Americans. And so when I did this story, I was like in Tijuana, and I'm like, you know, I'm sure a lot of you recognize where I'm at. I had all the famous strip clubs behind me, Hong Kong. And I'm like, you know, some of you probably come here to have fun and for cheap sex, but let's talk to the women who are actually providing these services who didn't know or ever imagined that they would end up here. And it's a very sophisticated network. These women are in— are from small towns, most of them. They're very young, and typically a lot of them come from pretty conservative families, very religious, like not a lot of exposure. And not saying that's a bad thing, but you know what I mean? It's just a smaller world.
And a man who splits his time between Mexico and the United States comes to this small town and falls in love with the 17-year-old girl. You know, he's older, but she's never had a guy pay attention to her in this way. And she will fall in love. It's the Romeo method. He wins her over, even wins the family over. a lot of the time and will either sleep with her, like take her virginity, or maintain it and say, we're gonna have sex after we get married. And then he will tell her, you know what, for work we have to go to this border town. Let's use TJ's common one. Let's go to Tijuana for work. You know, we're gonna move there just for a little bit. You're gonna do great, blah, blah. And this young woman, you know, okay, this is what I have to do for my family, my man. I've never, you know, been in a relationship, whatever. They move to Tijuana, and as soon as she gets there, she's thrown into a house where multiple other women are living with this man. And she's told that she has to go and make X amount of money every night, AKA sleep with as many, many, many men as possible until you make this quota.
And if you don't, he will beat you up very severely. Um, and with— they withhold everything from these women— their phones, their IDs, everything is taken away from them. And they will even go through the legal route, uh, through Tijuana's sanitary department— there's an official name for it— where you legally register as a prostitute. They will do that for these women. So sometimes they'll wait until these women turn 18 so they can legally register them. Some of them will even legally marry them, so it— these women essentially become like their property. And, um, one of the women I spoke to who's from a small town in central Mexico where a lot of women get trafficked and a lot of traffickers actually originate from, she told me as soon as she got to Tijuana with her husband Uh, he took her phone, her IDs, registered her. She didn't want to work. He beat her up so badly she went to the hospital, was very scared, and started working. And for 10 years gave sexual services to up to 30 men a night.
Sheesh.
Yeah, worst thing you've ever heard, right? And, um, and then she Tried to go to the authorities, her with some other girls, and they said, okay, first of all— I'm, I'm giving an idea of what she told me. She said, first of all, they told her, well, you're married to him, so that's, that's a spousal dispute. That's, that's on you guys. Like, whatever he's making you do or whatever's going on there, like, you guys are just in a fight. Um, and also, you know, no one is forcing you by your hair to go work the corner. You choose to go out and work there and give the sexual services. So they didn't do anything, and it was very hard for her to escape.
Uh, how did she escape?
She got pregnant with him. And, you know, I asked her, I said, were you worried Because his whole family, this trafficker and the man she considers to be her husband, um, the whole family does human trafficking. This is very common in Mexico where it's family networks who have generationally done human trafficking, and then they are, uh, giving money or kind of operating in tangent with, like, the cartel, but they are not themselves the cartel. And she got pregnant and she was like, she had already lost a pregnancy before. And she said, I had to leave. And she goes, I just grabbed all my shit and I got back home and I had like no money to do it. And she escaped to her family. And I asked her, you know, were you afraid? And she still has a relationship with her trafficker who she considers her husband. Because he's the father of her child. And, uh, she told me that she feels like no man will ever love her knowing what she has done in her life. So this is the only man who has, in a way, as evil as he was— and she said this— as evil as he was, is still with her.
Sheesh.
And when she told me that she got pregnant, which was what she used, I guess, as leverage to leave, I said, I was like, you know, were you worried, uh, that it would be a girl? Because it's actually quite common, unfortunately, where traffickers will impregnate the girls, and then if it's a daughter, then they'll bring them up, whatever, and then that girl gets trafficked. And in our interview, she starts bawling when I asked her this, and then I start crying. And she was like, my biggest fear was to have a girl. I prayed every night that God would not send me a daughter because life as a woman is horrible. And the life that she lived was tragic. And she told me most of the clients she was serving were American citizens. Americans who were coming to Tijuana for sex tourism. And she was abused a lot. Of course, you know, it comes with the territory. Um, but yeah, that was the worst thing ever. And she did tell me of a lot of girls she knew that were trafficked who were in Tijuana with her at some point. Um, and then if they were like successful AKA making a lot of money or, you know, very attractive considering the atmosphere, they would be taken to major cities in the United States to provide services.
San Diego, Houston, LA, New York is also a big one.
Shit.
And actually, in this town that I went to— I went to Tlaxcala. It's a state outside of Mexico City. It's, it's actually kind of— there's a running joke on the state that it's the forgotten state because it's the smallest. And a lot of people haven't even heard of it. Even Mexican nationals, there's— when I'm like, I went to Tlaxcala, they're like, what the fuck is that? There's a direct link between Tlaxcala as a human trafficking hub to major American cities. A major human trafficking network was actually taken down by authorities, American authorities in New York, I wanna say 3 years ago. And they were directly working with traffickers and getting girls from Tlaxcala, the forgotten state of Mexico.
Man.
It was the worst story I've ever done. And when I did this story, I wanted to obviously speak with the governor. of Tlaxcala. You know, your state is known as a human sex trafficking hub. That's not ideal. How are you combating this? And I had seen that she had— that what I had seen is 3 times she had publicly denied that there was a human trafficking problem in Tlaxcala. She said that it was being misrepresented and overblown. So I'm trying to set up an interview with her, and at first her office seems very keen. Yeah, she wants to give her side of the story, and that's kind of also how I played it, right? I want to know what, what's really happening from you. You're the one in charge. Tell me the truth. You know, I know what the truth is. I'm fucking seeing it. I'm talking to the people who are being terrorized by the reality of the situation. But let's hear from the individual who's supposed to maintain the integrity and the safety and well-being of the state and its citizens, who's obviously not doing that. And let's see what she has to say.
So I'm speaking with the office of the governor to set this up. And a representative from her office who I guess runs all the media situations says to me, yeah, okay, Gobernadora will talk to you. I'm gonna be— you're gonna be here on these dates. You can come to the palace, blah, blah, blah.
How much?
And I'm like, How much? I have to pay to do the interview? I don't do that. And she goes, no, no, no. How much do you need for a good interview? And I, I'm listening to this. I'm thinking, am I stupid? Like, am I not understanding? Do I not speak Spanish right now? And I'm like, you're gonna pay me to interview the governor? And she's like, yes, how much? I said, I'm sorry, I, I'm not understanding. So you're gonna give me money if I interview the governor? And she goes, yeah, yeah, and if you can send us, uh, you know, the, the cut before you publish it, we just like to look at for— I'm like, that's not journalism, man.
Mm-hmm.
I don't do that. You know, I should have asked how much she would be willing. That was I was just so shocked in the moment that that had happened. It was the first time that I had been offered money by a government official to do a story so that it would feed their narrative. And I was shocked. Governor didn't end up doing the interview with me. They gave me, um—
No kidding.
A Secretary of Women, which is a position in Mexico for women's well-being and stuff, tasked with women's safety. Governor didn't do it.
Jeez.
So you're offering me money to interview you because you want me in my report to put that there isn't a human trafficking problem, right after I just spoke with a woman who told me that she was trafficked and lured from this state, asked for help, never received it, was terrorized for a decade of her life, and is back here and has no resources to access to even maybe make something better of her life that was destroyed. Get wrecked. Wow. Wow. And when you talk about the American connection, I understand that there's this perception that, well, you know, cartels are Mexico's problem. At least that was the perception for a long time. And I think we even spoke about this last time where Well, that's not our problem. I mean, you guys, I'm not American, but that's, that's not a US problem. That's a Mexico problem. And there was, has always been this kind of distinction between— so US is combating fentanyl and cartels. Why? Because fentanyl is killing Americans at record rates. But then there's this other side of it that has a lot more nuance where now this Mexico problem is a problem. because of Americans, and now it's becoming an American problem.
And I think human trafficking is a prime example of that, because these girls are being trafficked into the U.S., and then these guys aren't getting caught. Who's to say that they're not also trafficking, trafficking American women simultaneously? Of course they are. It's a massive network, and if it spans borders They have no limit.
You know, Trump, didn't he announce— did he announce all cartels foreign terrorist organizations?
I think so, yeah. Or just a couple? I— not— so originally it wasn't all of them. It was a list of, I think, 8. Some were missing, but they've since expanded that list. So I'm not sure if all of them are designated yet, but for the most part, all bases are covered now.
So has the US done anything? Have they actually treated them like terrorist organizations? Have there been any arrests, hits, drone strikes? Any— are we— do we have intelligence services down there? I mean, a lot of questions I just hammered you with. Let's start with— let's start with this. How has that affected the cartel's mindset and operations, if at all? By them being labeled a terrorist organization?
I truly do not believe that the FTO designation actually impacted cartel operations. Um, they adapt like cockroaches, really. It— nothing, you know, U.S. will sanction someone, um, shut down this bank account, arrest this person, it doesn't matter because they've already pivoted 5 different ways. Um, in terms of arrests, People are— especially people on the US side of the border who have links or are operating or profiting off of the cartels are being arrested and charged as foreign terrorists, which is different. So if they're colluding with the cartel, now you were operating, aiding with a foreign terrorist organization. In terms of intelligence, We know the US has been and is continuously gathering intelligence on the ground in Mexico. Um, when the FTO designation was first announced, everyone was asking— that was the hot topic, right? Will there be American boots on the ground in Mexico? In an intelligence capacity, yes, of course. And there has been for a very long time. And we saw not so long ago that, um, 2 CIA agents were actually killed. They died in a car crash in Chihuahua dressed in Mexican police uniforms because they went to dismantle a meth lab.
So yeah, we know intelligence is being gathered there. I mean, Ryan Wedding, El Mencho— those people are not being taken out simply due to Mexican intelligence. I mean, U.S. is Openly taking credit for it, for the intelligence gathering to find the location of El Mencho. But when we're talking about drone strikes, boots on the ground in terms of, um, typical warfare, I don't think that will ever happen. I hope it doesn't. I've never wanted that to be the case because I think it would result in a lot more bloodshed and uncertainty and, and disorganization than good because the cartels will fight.
I mean, do they— since that's— how long ago did that happen?
Has it been about a year, the FTO designation?
Yes.
2 years.
2 years. Well, 2 years.
Yeah, it was, uh, am I right?
I think it's about a year.
No, when did— when was Trump— when did Trump take office? January 2020. Or that was— then it was 2 years. Yeah, that was— he, he signed that executive order.
I think he was 24, took office 25.
Oh, so it was a year. I have no concept of time these days.
Me neither.
It's so bad. It's so bad.
But so, I mean, since you've been down there in the past year and a half, his— I mean, is there any chatter about when you're talking to these guys, they don't give a shit.
They do not give a shit.
Do they wear it as a badge of honor? Do they?
Or are they— Indifference.
They don't care.
Indifference.
Like it's never even happened.
Yes, it makes no difference.
Wow, that's— I wasn't expecting that. According to polymarket.com, there's an 11% chance of conducting a drone, missile, or airstrike inside Mexico before the end of this year. How likely do you think it is that the United States eventually carries out a drone, missile, or airstrike against a cartel cartel target inside of Mexico?
I'm not an— I'm not a financial advisor, but do not bet on that because it's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen.
You don't think so, huh?
I, I'm actually very certain it won't. Um, and the reason for that is they don't need to do that. Um, their current tactic of splintering the cartels and having them kill each other off is a lot more effective and cheaper than doing all of that shit.
I don't know, it doesn't sound very effective to me when we're talking about—
They're essentially dismantling the Sinaloa Cartel.
Yeah, but another one's just taking over.
Yeah, but that will always happen. The drone strike will do the same thing, and it will turn people against eradicating the cartels. People who, who have— who do not want the cartels, because now you've caused war in their country, in their home. There was a video that just came out of a group of, of women in— oh, it's a southern state in Mexico, and they're being terrorized by the local cartel, local criminal groups. And they're saying in the video, they're these, uh, older Mexican women, President Trump, please help us. Please get rid of the cartels.
Mm-hmm.
They're asking a foreign president to help them with their domestic problem. I don't think though drone strikes would— and full-blown war would actually end up in that scenario by any means. And I think that what they're doing now is— So here's the thing. I don't personally believe it's effective, the whole kingpin strategy whatsoever. Right? It's a hydra. You cut off the head, 2 more grow back. They killed El Mencho, which was supposed to be like, holy, you know, the ultimate kingpin. Boom. Like nothing happened. 24 hours later, business as usual. But what they're doing with Sinaloa Cartel, for example, of turning everyone against each other and then making deals with the very terrorists they're against, right? Striking a deal with all of El Chapo's kids, the family. Oh, plea deal here, you can live in the US, visa here. I think that sends more of a message to the cartels than a drone strike. I do think, though, and there has certainly been chatter that a lot of these guys feel like if they end up in U.S. custody, if they have good information that the U.S. wants, they'll get a— they'll get an easy break.
Which is not a bad method.
And it's true. Like, we're seeing it happen for them. I mean, yeah, of course. And I, I'm under the impression That, that is exactly the reason why Mexican forces killed El Mencho and didn't capture him alive. You know, they say that there was this massive shootout. I'm sure there was. And that El Mencho died in transit to Mexico City. But I think of anyone El Mencho had so much information, particularly on high-ranking politicians, that the U.S. is very interested in. And that would have been very bad.
Well, that doesn't surprise me. And by the way, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on the drone strikes.
No, but you can.
I, I actually— if I did this, I'll roll the clip right now. I, I think that the way to do it would be And I don't know, like I said, it's been a minute since I've talked about this, but I don't know how, um, how combative the cartels are towards each other anymore. But I think what I would do is I would probably create some type of a psychological operation that pits the cartels against each other. And, and basically create a false narrative so that this cartel and this cartel hate each other and they go to war with each other, and then find ways to intervene. And you know what I mean? I'm pretty sure I brought up this exact method of turning the cartels against each other from the inside talking to Luis Chaparro many years ago.
I think you actually also probably brought it up to me.
But, you know, here's some things that we're not thinking about with the drone strikes, you know. And I don't know how they're set up, so this is all hypothetical, but drone strikes, precision strikes, what— however we do it, go in there with, with U.S. force, which I don't necessarily think we should be doing with as many wars as we're involved in right now.
Yeah, I don't think so.
But, you know, they do have to have supplies, you know what I mean? So whether that's drugs, uh, The supplies, the precursors that are coming from China. I mean, I don't know how much of the infrastructure is funded by drugs still, but if you were to take care of those supplies, that's a big hit of funding. I know that they export a shit ton of firearms, weapons, and stuff from the US. I don't know what they're doing with those. I don't know if they have caches, but if they do have big caches, they could hit it with a drone strike, you know what I mean? And, and, and, and handicap their, you know, their supplies. I know that they— which we're getting ready to get into here after this— but FPV drones, it's becoming a big thing, right? Right.
Oh, they have a ton of drones, you know what I mean?
So somebody's manufacturing those drones, and they're likely in some type of a, um, facility manufacturing these drones, they can hit those, you know what I mean? And so if there's high concentrations of cartel— I'm not just talking about, you know what I mean, hitting El Chapo or, uh, any of these other leaders. I mean, you have the supply, you hit the infrastructure.
Yeah.
And you hit the infrastructure all at once and it cripples them. On top of that, you also can play into the, you know, who got this info to them, you know what I mean? You can still turn them into it, turn them against each other from the inside.
Mm-hmm.
And play the exterior rivalry between cartel and cartel and just make it mass hysteria down there for them. And so I don't know if I would write it off completely. I do see what you're saying. I mean, generally when bombs start going off people's backyards, they don't like it, but it's already happening all the time anyway down there. And it is affecting more than just the US. I mean, I don't know what the impact in Canada is, but it sounds, you know, they're going— they're bleeding into Europe. And, and so at some point, something's gonna have to give here, uh, or else they're just gonna run the entire world. But what do you think of that?
I think it's, it's a good strategy. I mean, this is not my job to create strategies on how to end cartels.
You don't think about that ever?
I do, of course. But I don't think I'm the expert to even pitch how to do it, to be honest. It's also not— it's not my responsibility. Um, but I, I think that that could be effective because their weaponry, especially like you said, the drones, the guns, um, that's what they need. They need that muscle. And but I think they could do it without drone strikes almost. Maybe I'm being naive. I'm sure some people will think so. But 70% of the guns in Mexico, well, at least found at crime scenes, are coming from the United States, are American-made. And so ideally, right, it would be best if that, that stopped before they even get into the hands of the criminals. But just a few days ago, a massive shipment of DJI drones in Mexico was stolen. They don't know who stole it. You know, it could be cartel, it could be someone who's going to sell it. But I know that the majority of weapons in Mexico are coming from the US and Israel. And that goes beyond regular weaponry, right? Even spyware. I think we talked about Pegasus last time.
Mm-hmm.
Mexico's the number one country of Pegasus. They were the first country to actually do a contract with, with Pegasus. And that's—
Interesting.
Because actually, the previous president, Peña Nieto, allegedly accepted a $25 million bribe from 2 executives at, uh, NSO, the company that started Pegasus spyware out of Israel. And he implemented Pegasus as part of their, uh, national security apparatus. It was the first country to do it. Uh, they were the first one to, you know, have that contract. And then an Israeli news outlet said that these 2 individuals, 2 execs for Pegasus, bribed—
Who?
the Mexican president at the time, with $25 million to implement Pegasus into their national security apparatus. And Peña Nieto denied this. A person who's never on social media following his presidency goes onto Twitter and is like, this is terrible. There's no journalistic rigor in this reporting. This is completely wrong.
False.
I would never do this. And then, um, a few days ago, a video comes to light. You see him at a wedding with the very individual, uh, last name Neria, I think, who gave him the $25 million bribe.
Wow.
Who was accusing— yeah. And, and in Israel, there was like this tribunal held. It wasn't like official court, but it's like 5 rabbis. It's kind of like an arbitrary kind of court hearing, um, with the 2 NSO individuals because they were, you know, having a dispute over the company. And one of them says to Neria, you know, you need to pay me back. I want out of this. You need to pay me back. So they're listing off everything that he can get money from. And he goes, and remember, we bribed that president with $25 million. Give me the $25 million. And Neria, the, the individual who was spotted with Peña Nieto a few days ago, doesn't say, no, we never did that. No, there's no money there. He says, no, it was less than $25 million what we gave him. And that's all documented. And Pegasus took over Mexico's state security. It became very problematic and very dangerous because, sure, perhaps that was meant to be part of the infrastructure of the government. It got into the hands of cartels. They were using it to spy on journalists, on clean politicians, the few and far in between.
Um, and people were certainly murdered because of the access to that, the widespread access. Sorry, that was a bit of a tangent there.
Oh no. Well, man. What a problem. I mean, it's just—
President is accepting a $25 million bribe for spyware tech? Crazy.
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The stolen crude oil? American refineries.
American refineries.
There was actually a case a year ago. It was, um, a family out of Utah, I believe. And they, they, they were indicted because they were buying stolen crude oil and smuggling it in through the Port of Brownsville. And they, they ran a, um, I think Jensen family, something like that. They, they had a kind of family-run smaller refinery, and they were knowingly purchasing the stolen crude oil because it was a lower price.
But you'd have to, you'd have to, I mean, you just have to totally cripple their infrastructure, their money-making machine, which is boycott on avocados, penalize US companies that are, that are, you know, or just make it illegal, which that would probably take 20 years in the US.
Yeah.
Um, I mean, you'd have to Destroy all of their fentanyl, cocaine, whatever. You'd have to do all of that. You'd have to get rid of the weapons. I don't know exactly how you would take care of the human trafficking problem, but that would, you know, that would narrow it to one scope. And then the other thing you would have to do is handle their government, which the U.S. is horrible at. But, you know, it would take, it would take some type of, some type of intervention, you know, fair election cycles, better protection for politicians. I mean, shit like that for it to, for it to even have a chance, which I'm sure none of it is happening. So.
The last election in Mexico was one of the most violent in history. where Claudia Sheinbaum won with a historic landslide.
And above all, it would take the people of Mexico to actually stand up.
Yeah. There's a level of acceptance.
If they don't want to, then this whole thing is just—
Yeah. I've spoken to a lot of people, especially in Sinaloa. They're very tired of it and they want it to end and they'll take the stand. But also, we have to appreciate that there's so much deep-rooted fear in standing up against that. It's completely understandable. It's like, how do you take on this big beast if even the government can't? It's a collective approach with—
Well, the government's part of the beast.
Exactly.
Yeah, man, rough time down there. Have you heard of, uh, El Salvador's infamous SECOT prison? Do you think anything like that would work?
So there's actually a lot of Mexican people I've spoken to who are very anti-cartels that say they would love to see that in Mexico, that that's what it needs, that Mexico needs a Bukele. Um, I think if, if they were to go after everyone just like Bukele did, and, and, you know, anyone who has any morsel of connection to criminals or criminal activity goes straight to jail. with no end in sight, you know, indefinitely, yes, it could be effective. But like I said, the different— what Mexico would also have to do that El Salvador kind of got under control is they would have to compensate in the economy, right? Because like we said, it's so much of it is run by the cartels. And that would be the part that disincentivizes them from just being like, we're gonna go and do this widespread cleanup. and throw everyone into this mega prison like Secod. But I, I have heard that before, and I actually know a lot of people who are like very anti-cartel, um, in Mexico who say that they would like to see that happen. And they're like, it's not best-case scenario, but it's gotten to that point.
I mean, that was one of the most violent places in the world, and now it's one of the safest. You know?
Yeah. And there's obviously like a lot of human rights concerns that we've heard about. People are in there that they have nothing to do with it and how people are being treated. And I mean, when you're talking about tackling this huge beast of crime and violent crime, that's, that's kind of part of the nature, wouldn't you agree?
It's unfortunate.
It is, of course.
Well, let's move into Ukraine. Okay, what's going on with the cartels in Ukraine?
So last summer, um, I saw that France and Mexico had sent an intelligence report to Ukraine notifying them that there were foreign mercenaries, foreign fighters in Ukraine that were training up on FPV drone tactics. only to go to Mexico and work for the cartels as FPV drone operators. And so I was like, okay, this is very interesting. Let's dig into it. Come to find out, there was one individual, and he goes by Águila 7, Eagle 7. He went to Ukraine with false documentation and went to a very well-known drone training facility where he raised some red flags because he was already very well-versed in FPV drone flying. And I guess someone— the details aren't super clear, and even when I was digging for information on this, it was really hard. Also keeping in mind it's an active war zone, so, you know, they're trying to also protect the integrity of their infrastructure, security, etc., even image to a degree. So it seems like some of the, uh, trainers caught on that something may have been off and that his intentions were odd and, and his capabilities. He was flagged, and then an investigation went on where they found out that he had direct links to criminal organizations in Latin America.
And that's really all it says, but it seems as though he was directly connected to Mexican cartels and to FARC as well. So after that, okay, looking into it, whatever, we go to Ukraine, my cameraman and I, and we go to these drone training facilities where it's, it's quite simple. Uh, FPV— flying an FPV drone is kind of like playing a video game, and actually young people are pretty good at it because They're well-versed in playing video games. The only thing obviously that changes is that once you have like the bombs strapped to it and the weight and the understanding of dropping it and accuracy, whatever. You also do not see the kill happen. The camera shuts off right at launch. So it also creates like this disconnect to modern— to typical warfare, I guess. We go to these training facilities and I begin to like ask everyone, you know, what about these foreign fighters that are coming here? Have you guys seen people that seem like they have— they're ill-intentioned, or, you know, they're not here to fight the war even for the money, to be a mercenary, but they're here because they want to learn something?
And there was mixed reactions. We went to a lot of different facilities, training facilities. Some people said, yeah, you know, you'll some guy will come here from Colombia and we'll go on his TikTok and he's showing him with like an AK-47 in like the hood in, in Colombia. We're like, what is he doing here? A lot of them are just like police officers or ex-military. And so they have this legitimate experience and now they're applying it over there, whether it's for the paycheck or because they, you know, they believe in Ukraine's autonomy, whatever it is. that at the end of the day didn't even matter. I was curious to see how and why the cartels are getting people from here. So it seems like there's 2 things happening simultaneously. First, that at one point in time, a few individuals, small amount, were sent on purpose with false documentation, some of them even through private military companies. to Ukraine to get trained up on drones, serve their 6 months, and then go back to Mexico. And now they knew how to use drones and they would become the trainers in Mexico. Another thing is happening. Um, a lot of Latin American foreign fighters in Ukraine, once their time serving is coming up to an end, um, they are being recruited by cartels in Mexico, offered money, and will go straight from Ukraine to Mexico now to fight on the front lines with CJNG, um, and particularly in Michoacán with, with cartels operating in Michoacán.
There's actually—
How are they recruiting?
Through social media.
Through social media?
Yeah. So a lot of these guys are posting on their TikTok and Instagram of them fighting the war there and being in Ukraine, and a lot of it obviously is in Spanish. because they're Latin American. And I guess there's some people within the cartels tasked with seeking these individuals out, offering them money and like this recruitment package to go to, to Mexico.
And any idea how much they're paying?
I have no idea, but I don't think it's a lot because based on the profile of the individuals who are actually ending up there, Uh, they're not coming from well-paying jobs in Colombia or well-paying positions in Ukraine, and they're ending up on front lines in Mexico. So the money can't be good. There's one individual, he's kind of everywhere, or at least, you know, I've seen him a lot. He's Colombian, fought in Ukraine, now is on the front lines in Michoacán with the cartel, and he will wear He wears the Colombian flag patch, Ukraine, and now Mexico. And he even like kind of in a video that was circulating that I saw of him, he was bragging about it like, a Colombian and I was in Ukraine and now I'm with the cartel fuckers. Yeah, in Mexico.
Shit. Any idea how many people they've recruited from the Ukraine?
I have no idea. And I'm telling you, it's like This has been the hardest thing to track down. It is so hard. It's— I— it appears like either nobody's keeping track or nobody wants to keep track, or it's happening under the radar, which I, I don't think it is.
Do you have any idea how, how much? I'm just curious. I mean, there's a ton of U.S. GWOT veterans that are—
I saw so many of them.
you know, that are, that are over there right now. I think they've already caught US special ops guys down there helping out training.
I've seen a lot of it. Um, there were a lot of Americans there, especially at the training facilities that we went to. Not the drone training.
Wait, in Ukraine or in Mexico?
In Ukraine. Sorry, what were you— were you asking me about Ukraine or Mexico?
Mexico. Coming from Ukraine to Mexico.
So American GWOT guys that were serving in Ukraine voluntarily and then went to Mexico?
No, just GWOT in general before Ukraine. I'm saying there is a large pool of combat experience to draw from today to train cartels. Yes, to fight with cartels. And they have a lot of money.
and experience. Yeah.
I mean, cartels have a lot of money to pay for these guys.
Yeah. Well, I've— there have been some things that I have seen that it's, it's very clear that there are some individuals from the US who are very highly trained that are, are offering some training services to cartel fighters.
You've seen this? Seen it?
Not in person, but I've, I've received information. And I have to say this in a way where I don't make this risky for myself. Um, it's not— this isn't like a common thing that's happening, okay? It's not like this systemic issue. But it exists.
You know, that would be interesting for you. I mean, I know you're, uh, obviously involved with Ironclad. They've got a lot of people within special operations. It would be interesting if you could source somebody yourself or through them, maybe, who isn't— who doesn't have a face on the internet.
Yeah.
To go down there with you and assess tactics and see if they think that some of the tactics that these guys are using are coming from U.S. special operations.
I would like to do a story like that.
It would be interesting.
You could get somebody in there with you that doesn't have a footprint on the internet, and they can clock exactly what tactics and, and methods are linked back here.
I mean, you could probably get to a training facility. I know Luis got to a training facility, brought us footage of it.
Yeah.
You know, and, and, um, wasn't very good training from what he showed me. It was horrible.
It's very rudimentary.
But, you know, I'm sure there are different levels, you know, that these— that, that I'm sure there's different levels of operations going on within the cartel. At least I would think, as sophisticated as they are in business, I'm sure militarily they have They have their elite all the way down to, you know, here's a gun, go shoot.
Yeah.
But if you could get a guy like that into one of these facilities to just observe, they would be able to tell you where this is coming from.
The only problem with pursuing a story like that right now is just everything is very hot. It would be very dangerous. Um, I, I wanted to go to some regions in Sinaloa when I was there to kind of see, uh, who was running the show, especially if it was like historically El Chapo's region. Okay, what's going on there now? And even some of my sources within the cartel were like, it will be dangerous for you. It's like, shit, okay, if you're saying that, it's a no-go. Um, and a lot of these training facilities have become like kill houses. They're very violent now, especially the ones run by CJNG. Uh, there's a lot of fighting to the death, uh, sacrificial stuff.
It's sacrificial.
Yeah, like killing, killing, kill this guy in front of everyone else or beat him up. Yeah, so it's, it's extreme violence. And of course, stuff that they— that's, that's type of stuff that they do not want publicized. It's bad PR for them. So when, when 2 years ago, um, the what's called the extermination ranch in Jalisco was found, Rancho Isaguirre, like 60 kilometers outside of Guadalajara, that was said to have been a CJNG recruitment camp and training camp, but it was also an extermination camp. A lot of people were taken there to die. A lot of people died there. Um, a lot of people were forced to fight to the death, or just really heinous violent behavior. And it seems like that's the MO now, uh, for these cartel training and recruitment camps. There's a lot of extreme violence that goes on. So I would draw the line there for me personally.
Are these all Latin American fighters that they're recruiting from Ukraine? Are they recruiting from all over the world?
It seems like so far, my knowledge, just Latin American.
Why do you think that is? You think it's price?
For the cartels? I think it's price and language.
Language.
They can communicate with them and they don't have to pay them a ton.
Have you— are you seeing, uh, you know, I kind of mentioned this earlier, that are you like— you're talking about DJI shipments and stuff. I would think that's, uh, a little bit— I mean, I'm actually surprised to hear that, that they're ordering drones from DJI. Those are expensive, even if they're stealing them. Um, I just— why are you hearing any of— are you hearing any— 3D printing is what That's the new jam.
It is.
It's 3D printing factories, whether you're in Ukraine, Haiti, Haiti. No, it's happening all over the place. It's just they, they, they take over a building, do whatever, and they make a 3D printing house and they just are shitting out drones by the, you know, every second. Are they doing that down there?
So from what I've seen, it's not common at all to 3D print like the drone itself, but they are 3D printing certain components. for the drones that are dropping bombs. Not the kamikaze drones, but like literally an FPV drone. They'll 3D print certain components to attach whatever to it or, um, enhance it to whatever they need. I mean, I could even— I could give you some videos. I'm being sent videos left, right, and center.
I would love to see some videos.
Yeah, I have a ton of drone videos in my phone because These guys are really proud of it. So they're sending it around. I get drone videos as soon as the bombs are dropped from the drone, essentially. And you can see where they've, like, altered the drone. And the expensive part of buying those, it's not a problem for them. They're using these to target mostly law enforcement and adversarial groups. But particularly for law enforcement, because it keeps them— law enforcement away from their hub of operation. So yeah, I, I have seen more drone videos than I'd like of people getting exploded, locations getting exploded, convoys of law enforcement getting exploded.
Is it— is it one drone? So here's what I'm getting at next. Those are the— that's actually the old days now. One improvised explosive on a kamikaze drone. Do you hear anything about cartels investing into large language models, AI-type software, so that they could run entire drone swarms where it's not an individual operator per drone. They actually have some type of a, uh, a large language model that's— that, that they can get 50, 100, 1,000 drones. I mean, if they did that, if they were able to accomplish that, they wouldn't need all the personnel.
I have not seen that yet in Mexico. It could exist. I haven't seen it. They, they could be keeping it low-key, or it's just not happening. I think it could certainly get to that point. But so far, I don't think that that's necessary. I think with the status quo, with what they have of these large FPV drones, that's good enough for them. But certainly, you're right. For the manpower, it would be great. But I think that the groups that need the manpower the most, like we're talking about fractured cartels, for example, where they're needing men, they don't actually have the capital to invest in something like that that could make up for their manpower because they're struggling to keep up with how it is already.
Gotcha. Man, we've covered a lot of ground there. Am I missing anything with the Ukraine connection?
No, that was mostly it. Yeah.
So we're wrapping up the interview. But what do you think the future— and this could go for another hour— what do you think the future holds for cartels? What do you think they're going to move into? What do you see coming in the future? If you had a crystal ball in front of you, what would it be telling you?
Okay, there's a couple major things that I think are going to happen. First, I think that the US government is really going to do anything in their power to try to turn everyone against each other, even if that means somehow starting lies that move through the ranks of cartels, um, so that they continue to take each other out, turn against each other, splinter, fracture, whatever you want to call it. I think that in spite of CG&G's leader being gone, we are only going to continue to see the rise of power and control that CJNG has over the entire cartel landscape, over all of Mexico and the global drug trade. They have so much money, power, and vision, and they are probably like the foreign terrorist organization. And I, I don't see that ending. I just, I think it's going to grow. And there are some, uh, actually very high-IQ individuals, particularly in that Valencia family, that are going to ensure that operations continue to run and, if not, expand. And finally, I think that the next Mexican president Will— I think it's probably going to be Omar García Harfuch, the Secretary of Security. And I think that he's going to work very closely with the Americans.
It's going to kind of be like we're flipping a page. It's going to be different than with Claudia Sheinbaum, who kind of pushes back. But I don't entirely see that as a positive thing because I think that also Harfouch has sometimes his own agenda, nefarious or not, that he will continue to execute at the same time as, as handing over everyone to the US or, you know, allowing the US to operate in Mexico.
Do you— I mean, obviously the U.S. has great interest in getting involved at some point, to the point that the, the hand will be forced at some point.
It already is, I think.
Are there any other nations that are getting to the point that they're going to have to get involved? Bigger nations. I'm not talking about Central America, you know. What about Canada? What about any European countries?
I think Canada should. I mean, we have a major fentanyl problem over there, you know. It matches that of, of the U.S. and a border problem. I talked about this last time. that a lot of the fentanyl precursors are coming in through Canadian ports and none of it's being checked. But so far it seems like that incentive is not there, that manpower still isn't there. There's this lack of communication between our law enforcement agencies and bodies from federal to provincial levels. And I actually— a source of mine over there told me that, uh, they have been There have been some certain major drug busts coming through the ports, kilos of meth, and they are not releasing that to the public. They're not even putting out press releases because they don't— they don't want that added pressure. Uh, so that's already bad, you know, the lack of transparency, downplaying the problem. So I don't think Canada would get into it, not to mention Canada is literally extraditing, uh, people involved in drug cases that happened on their land, but because it's, you know, DEA, uh, helped investigate, these people are going to the US. They're being extradited to the US for court hearings.
So it's already sending— setting this precedent that if they can take the most hands-off approach of it, that they will, which Is— it is what it is. Um, I think in Europe, Spain has a major problem with cartel infiltration and massive amounts of drugs coming in through Spain and then also going— being distributed throughout other European countries directly from Spain. And even certain individuals who are directly linked to criminal organizations even in Mexico, cartels that seek refuge in Spain. So I think, yeah, there's quite a few countries who, you know, perhaps they don't see it as a problem, but when— or they don't want to. But when you're doing this work and you're so dialed in and digging into all of it, you see how it's all connected and how it can't just be one country taking the initiative. for any of these operations to be dismantled in any way, because it's so widespread and transnational. It has to be this collective effort.
Interesting. Is there anything I'm— I haven't asked you yet that I should be asking?
I don't know. I feel we covered a lot.
We, we covered a lot here. We did. We covered a lot, a lot of different scenarios. A lot of potential ways to intervene. It's an awesome interview.
Thanks for having me. It's really nice to speak to you.
Thanks for coming back. We'll have you again. Where are you heading next? Anywhere in particular?
Yeah, I don't want to say, though. I'm going on assignment, but I never say it in advance.
You're going to get out— you're going to get into anything non-cartel?
That'll come for sure. We talked about this. Yeah, it will come. But right now I'm just doing, you know, the stories that matter there. The cartel stuff. Boots on the ground.
Right on. Well, I'll be excited to have you back in another year or so.
But I'm here.
Katerina, be safe.
Thank you. Best of luck.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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Katarina Szulc is a Canadian investigative journalist based in Mexico, known for her on-the-ground reporting on cartel violence, organized crime, political corruption, and security issues. After beginning her career in traditional newsrooms with outlets including CBC and CityNews Vancouver, she shifted toward independent field reporting to get closer to the stories unfolding on the ground. Through her work and Borderland: Dispatches, Szulc reports from some of Mexico’s most volatile regions, tracking cartel leadership, evolving criminal tactics, and the growing intersection between organized crime, technology, and modern warfare.
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