Transcript of Money Chaos Doesn’t Have to Be Forever

Brought to you by the Every Dollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Normal is broken, common sense is weird. We're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio, this is the Ramsey Show. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author and host of The Front Row Seat. A big hit on Ramsey Networks. He's my co-host today. Phone number, 828-825-5225. Daniel is in California. Hi, Daniel. How are you? Hi, Dave. Good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? Thank God. First, I just want to say I'm a big fan.

I'm young, but I first heard about you in high school.

I just wanted to say that. Well, thank you. I'm 23 years old. I started a finance brokerage about three years ago with some outside investors. Initially, they promised about a million to two million of investment for half the company.

And then basically, right as we signed a major office lease, they had some financial troubles pulled out, leaving me with all the overhead.

At that time, I decided to just try and pick up the business myself. At one point, we were doing about 200,000 gross a month. Now, it's closer to 100 to 120. After expenses, it's probably around 40 to 50. And then during that rebuilding process, I racked up about maybe 80,000 in credit card debt. Now, the investors want their money back. They originally demanded double. I negotiated it down to just the principal. The challenge is given their connections and influence, I can't really just refuse to pay them even though it was an investment. So I'm trying to figure out the best way to pay them off the credit card debt while still being able to grow the business. What are you doing?

What's your business Do you work in a brokerage? We're like a brokerage. We assist small and medium-sized businesses to obtain financing.

Okay, so you're brokering business loans?

Correct, yeah.

Okay. All right. You did all this by yourself at 23 years old? At the time, I was 22, but yeah, now I'm 23. Is the investment These were venture capitalists that were putting money in for a piece of the ownership, correct?

Correct, yeah.

They invested their money in. Is there any documentation on how that investment was to be governed, when it was to be repaid, or anything like that?

Yeah. They basically pledged about a million.

I heard that, and then they didn't do it. They didn't do what they said they were going to do. But what's your documentation say on the deal? Surely you didn't do this They can deal on a handshake.

Correct. Yeah. The contract said that they were supposed to contribute until it's profitable, and that was their role. Technically, according to the contract, they didn't hold up to their part.

Right. The contract said they were going to get their money back. How? It had just been through equity. But they were going to be an owner, a percentage owner of the business, correct?

Correct, yeah.

So eventually, when the business were to become profitable, they I would get half of the profits. Okay. Well, number one, I don't buy that anyone has the influence to put you out of business. I think that's absolute bull crap. I really don't care what they think. They broke their word. They violated the contract. They're in default on the deal, from an ethics standpoint. And until they're profitable, they don't get anything. But they were supposed to put in a million dollars to get half. They never played through. They only put in 300,000. And so what does the contract say about our parties not following through and being in default?

So what's weird about the situation is given who they are and they're involved in the community I'm in, and they were put together by somebody we personally knew, It just was going to be a really big mess if I were to try and basically say you defaulted, you don't deserve the equity.

You know what? You're so intimidated by something that just does not exist. I don't believe what you believe. I'm calling PS. You've got these guys made out to be some big deal, and they can't even come up with the money they're supposed to come up with. So I don't know how they're a big deal.

So the thing is now that they're apparently doing better, that's where they came back to light saying, We're ready to reinvest.

And I'm like, No. No, you didn't follow through on the call. You're in default.

So go back to the question Dave just asked you, because it's the right question. You didn't answer it. You went into, Well, because of their influence, what does the letter of the contract say as it pertains to these investors? They are in default. Everybody on this phone call agrees. So what does the contract say?

The contract says that they would only have a reduced equity based on what they gave. So that's what they got? Yeah. And if they want their money back, toughies.

Yeah.

So that's the ultimatum they gave me- Here's an idea, boys and girls. You're going to buy the contract this time.

So the thing is, my question basically is, that's the ultimatum they gave, which was, okay, either we're going to own a percentage of the company or you're going to buy us out. So given the types of people they are, obviously, I want to get them out.

Yeah, but you don't have 300 grand.

Correct.

So my question is, would it be smart to try and put together some payment plan with them to try and wipe that out? Yeah, I mean, how much can you do? 25 a month? Be done in a year? I mean, that's the question. If I try and put that dollar amount, I'm worried in my- Why don't you give them a percentage of profits that is equal to... I mean, what's your typical profit in a month? You said 40K?

Yeah.

Okay, so let's give them 50% of profits until you get your 300.

That's the idea that I had.

Yeah, that's good. But I got to tell you, I do want you to reset and realize that you still have these guys on a pedestal where they do not belong. You think they have more power than they actually have, and you think they have more influence in the community than they actually have. Because I know people in our community that screw people over. They're known, but they're also known for screwing people over. When it's not convenient and when it is convenient is when they do deals. That's who these guys are. They're not as influential and powerful as you have made them out to be in your mind. I promise you, they're not. Guys that break on deals like this are not guys that... They don't hold influence because other people know this. They know this about them. You're just finding it out late. Other People stayed away from them when you did a deal with them. Don't do any of this based on, these guys are a big deal. These guys aren't a big deal. They're a couple of crooks. Didn't follow through on their deal. That's who I'm negotiating this contract with. If you want to buy them out for 300, give them their 300 back at 50% of profits until you get to 300, no interest, then that's fine.

That's going to take about a year, give or take. That's okay. Do that. I think you need some legal advice. Because I think you're reading a contract that was written by guys that screwed you. And so you need to get someone else to actually look at this contract and make sure... Because a lot of contracts, what I'm saying, Daniel, is a lot of contracts like this say, if you're in default, you lose it all. You get nothing, honey, just like the cereal. Nothing, honey. That's what most contracts of this type would say. Default means you out, baby. That's what it means. It means you didn't put a million in, you only put 300 in, so you lose the 300. Nothing, honey. You need to check that. I think it might have a nut and honey clause in it.

Dave, we got a lot of calls on this show where life happens.

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Hey, Dave. How's it going? Pleasure to be speaking with you. I've been following you for years. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Obviously, I've been following you. I've been listening to you, but I haven't been implementing your strategies. So just to give you some information, I'm 29 years old. I just finished off college last year. I got my undergrad. I have about $55,000 in student loans, and then I have about $35,000 in credit card debt. And I just got a job at an insurance company. It's an $80,000 starting salary with a 10 % target bonus. And obviously because of the loans and then the credit card debt, the credit card debt got so bad that I had to go into a... It basically was a charge off with the credit union that I was with. And so it's two cards, one for about 19 and one for about 16. So I'm, like you said, I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. I haven't been Usually not. Haven't had good spending habits the past couple of years, but luckily, I did get this job. I just started about three months ago, but my credit score is really bad.

What'd you use to make- What'd you use to make- Paycheck the paycheck. Before that, I was working about, I was making about 35,000 while I was in school.

Okay.

What is the credit card debt composed of, mostly?

What did you buy?

To be honest with you, just a lot of partying, just being I mean, an irresponsible young 20-year-old in my young 20s and just mismanaging it and just spending it on going out and doing whatever it was.

Were you able, not counting the partying, but just food and shelter and lights and water. Were you able to exist on the 35, $1,000 income?

Not really, to be honest with you.

A lot of it was being spent on- What's it take for you to exist bare minimum, right now? About 40?

Bare minimum, I would say about 45 to 50.

Okay. Call it 50. You're making 80 plus bonuses.

You have no car payment, none of that?

No. If you live on 50 and you put 30 on the debt, you're debt-free in two and a half years.

Yeah, absolutely.

How far behind are... How long since you How long have you paid the credit cards?

It's been about three years.

You can probably sell those for about a quarter on the dollar. The first thing I want you to do is I want you to save up $4,000 and call them and talk to them about the $16,000 I wouldn't say, I've got $4,000. If you can accept that as settlement in full, I'll give it to you right now. No, we want payments. I can't do that, but I can give you $4,000 as settlement in full. We can't do that. It requires six. Okay, I'll have to call you back later because I don't have six. I got four. No payments, no process, and settle those for pennies on the dollar and clear them out, and then attack the student loans with a vengeance. But you're going to have to get on a written plan. Here's the great news. You're about to turn your whole life around so that you can turn this debt around.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Because you've correctly identified what caused the problem. Now, you've got a second chance at being an adult, making 80 grand. And now you got to be an adult.

Absolutely.

So the guy in the mirror, he's a different dude now. Starting today, ready, set, go. Absolutely. Definitely, well. Because your money is going to flow out of your personal healing and maturing. The fixing of your money is not going to occur independent of you maturing and healing. You understand what I'm saying? Yes. Those two things are together. They're part of the same equation because personal finance is 80% behavior. Behavior comes from you. If you go, Okay, this 80,000, I am sick and tired of being sick and tired. I feel like I'm sitting on the sidelines watching everyone else win while I was screwing off. And that's no more me. Now I'm in the game. They're getting ready to give me the ball, and I'm going to run the ball in the dadgum end zone, and nobody's going to stop me. I'm going to look in the mirror and say, On Friday night, I'm working extra. I'm not going hour.

Absolutely.

Because I'm getting out of debt, and I want my life back, and I want to be a 30-year-old man, not a 20-year-old party animal. I'm playing back for you what you said, okay? Yes. But I'm speaking life over you, son. You can do this.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Yeah. I want to ask you real quick on that end. I'm sitting here listening. Here you are, a guy who listened to Dave for many years while doing all this destructive stuff. That tells me that your conviction, your values aligned with what Dave had been saying on the show, and yet your behavior was different. I'm just real curious. I'm not putting you on the spot to embarrass you, but to lift you. What's going on below the surface? What was really going on? Why all the partying?

I think there was just, I guess, a low self-esteem issue that I had in my younger years. I finished off school late. I had a rough go after high school. I really didn't take things seriously until I was about 24. And then that's when I started. I realized I was like, I got to get back in school. I got back in school, worked my ass off while I was working, paying for school. And I got it done. And I got a great opportunity.

Now you get to ring the bell.

So here's what I want to leave with you on this, because Dave nailed this. You didn't think you were good enough to pull off this money value stuff that we teach. You didn't think you just had a self-esteem issue, and we don't need to dig anymore. But I think it's really important you get off this call and realize what's really going on here, because you're going to be tempted again in the days ahead to believe this false narrative that you weren't good enough to live like no one else. I just really think that's way below the surface.

Yeah, I agree. And he said it. It's what you told us. You're exactly right. Hey, Brian, go get him, man, and call us back when you're winning. We want to hear your story. Okay? I love it. Hattie He's with us. Hattie is in Indianapolis. Hi, Hattie. How are you?

Hi, Dave. I'm fine. Thank you. Thanks for taking my call. Sure.

How can we help?

I just need some guidance about whether, now that I have the means, I should pay off my estranged son's student loan debt.

Why would you do that?

Well, because before we were estranged, I promised him that when my father died, that I knew I would receive some money and that I promised him that I would pay the debt. There's no legal obligation. I know that. Yeah.

Okay. How much is it?

Thirty thousand dollars.

How much money do you have? 2.

5. Okay.

Yeah, I'd pay it off. It's not about him. It's about you. Right. You're keeping a promise you made. It has nothing to do with anybody else. This is you being you because that's who you are. It just makes it greasy. It makes it slimy. It does make you go, Am I losing my rapid mind? But 30K out of 2. 5, I think you'll be okay. You can burn that much in the middle of the floor and don't worry about it. But I would have zero expectations that this fixes the estrangement. It's just you keeping your word. That's all it is.

Right. I don't want him to feel like I can't control how he feels. Right. No, exactly.

All I can control is what I promise to do, and I'm going to do what I promise to do. Yep. That's all I can control. Very good. That's all I can control. If I could control him, he wouldn't be estranged. I can't make him do anything. He wouldn't be off the ranch, right? I'm sorry you're going through that. How long have you all been disconnected?

Four years.

I'm so sorry.

Over what? He's 25 now and doing well. Well, there was a straw that broke the camel's back, a big argument his senior year of high school. But I was a single mom most of my life. I think he was raised in a household full of my anxiety and fear about how to be a single mom.

I'm sorry. Hey, you raised him. He's eating, he's alive. You fed him. Sometimes you just got kicked back and go, That's what I did. I was trying to get by. Oh, well, next thing. Yeah, I'd write a check just to keep your word.

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Hi, I'm great. Thank you so much for taking my call. Sure.

What's up?

Okay. I am I'm a realtor, and as such, my income fluctuates. I just started the Every Dollar budgeting. I have the app. Here's my question. That since I started, I've put my business fees in with my household expenses and everything else. No. Now I feel like, yeah, I know. I have an appointment at my credit union to get a separate account. But here's my question. Should I get another budgeting? Should I just open up a different EveryDollar app, or should I put those expenses in the current EveryDollar app, or how do I budget this?

You could try to run in the EveryDollar app. It's not really well designed for a business PnL, a profit and loss statement. You really need a business PnL. It's just something like Quickbooks or something like that. They're very easy softwares. Basically, what it is, it's all your gross revenues, the income you make in the real estate business goes into that separate new account. The only thing you pay out of that new account is business expenses. So your realtor fees, if you buy signs or you buy, I don't know, anything that's a valid business expense associated with you doing your real estate business comes out of that account. Nothing else. You don't pay any personal bills out of that account. Then what's left in that account is the actual profit on your real estate business. Okay, great. What comes out of that account then, when you take money out of that account and bring it home, you need to set aside a fourth of it for taxes. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to do. If you pull $10,000 out of that account, you need to set 2,500 aside because you're supposed to be filing once a quarter your estimated taxes.

They're called quarterly estimates, and you're supposed to be doing that as well. If you don't keep up with that, number one, you'll get behind the eight ball and have a big old tax bill and it'll knock you down. Number two, you're going to get penalized. So sit down with a tax preparer and help them to show you how to do your quarterly estimates, set up your separate account, run your separate business like you were running it for someone else. Then when you pull the profits out and bring them home, set aside a fourth of it, and that money all is coming home. How much have you made selling real estate so far?

It fluctuates. This year, my net commission is around 45, and I estimate a little bit more. I also have some other income sources, so I'm just trying to tweak everything. It's all in a big pile.

Yeah, good. What are the other What's your income sources?

I teach part-time at a university, and I Uber, and I get some child support.

Okay, all right. Well, child support goes straight into your account. No question about that. When you teach, is that a W-2 or are they 1099 in you?

That's a W-2.

Okay, so you don't have any tax part. So that money goes straight into your account. Okay. Correct.

Okay, so that just goes... Okay.

Yeah, and your Uber is 1099.

What about the Uber? Yes. So should I put that in the real estate I would just say this is my business account.

I'm going to put my Uber income in there. And I have two line items. I have real estate income and I have Uber income. You can code the expenses. For instance, let's just use an example. If you were spending money on fuel to show houses, then we could have Gasoline-R for real estate, and then we could have Gasoline-U for Uber. Okay. Then you could be able to pull up the different expenses associated with Uber, the different expenses associated with real estate. But they're all still net expenses going right down the list there, and you'll be able to tell what's happening with your business.

Question, how much are you spending? How many hours a week are you spending in the Uber?

I spend about 15 to 20, give or take.

Is that because you're running really tight financially? Yes.

Correct. Right now I am, but it's also good income. Just- It's not good income if you're selling real estate.

Yeah.

I want you to get out of that. This is where I'm digging there because that time spent there could be spent in other ways. I want to see you get out of that. I'm not sure that's the best ROI on your time, not to mention tearing the car up and everything else. I understand if you're filling a gap temporarily, but you were saying that's going to change. What's going to change about your real estate business so that you're not Ubering?

Well, I had a few sales that got pushed. It's usually a little bit more regular, but it's up and down. So sometimes I'm so busy, I literally can't eat. And sometimes I have nothing to do, and I'm just prospecting and not earning anything. So I'm trying to get more. I've never really budgeted. So now I have the Every Dollar app. I have the great advice from you all, and I have more of a sense of stability and consistency. So I think that's going to help me.

The more you can get a steady flow in your real estate pipeline, the more your income is going to be steady in your real estate pipeline, and it's going to be a better income than Ubering.

That's right. And now that you're budgeting, I love where your head's at. That's where you need to get to, to where you're accounting for down times, but you're actually prospecting, prospecting, prospecting, not in the Uber. That's where you want to get to, because you're going to see a much better pipeline and long-term results that way.

Shane is in Texas. Hi, Shane. How are you? Good. How are you, sir? Better than I deserve. How can we help?

I just wanted some guidance. I'm getting ready to sell my home. Got divorced in the last year and got a little bit of debt, a little bit of commercial debt, a vehicle, and some student loans. Nothing terribly crazy for my income level, but I just want to position myself best for being a homeowner again in about maybe a year or so after I sell my house in the next few months. So just looking what that has to do with that money.

So you're going to get enough out of the house to be debt free?

I'll be pretty close. Currently, I have about $9,000 in commercial just credit card debt that I paid about 10% I got that down in the last year. And then I'm currently on baby step two. And then I've got a vehicle that has a note about 16 to 17,000 on it, and that'll be paid off in just under two years. Still a new vehicle, reliable, and that's the main reason I've kept it. Plus, I'm not upside down on it right now.

What is your end time?

About 125 gross.

Okay. How much will you get out of the sale of the house?

Anywhere between $20 to 25.

Why would you not just pay off these debts?

That's my plan. I just want to figure out if you had me got it somewhere best to put it first, because I'm not going to be able to pay off the total amount.

Yeah, you are. You're getting 25. You only owe 16 and nine. That's 25.

Well, and I've also got a student loan that's about 16,000. Basically, if I pay off, I could pay almost all of everything. My idea was, if I pay off my vehicle and I hold the value in that for a while, and then I also pay off the credit cards, then I'll just be making a student loan payment, which will be my lowest. If I do that, I'll be paying the least amount of money per month at minimum, and I can pay it off faster. But I didn't know if that was- If you don't have a car payment and you don't have the other loan, and all you got is a student loan, and you make 120, and you're no longer married, how fast are you planning on paying off 16,000 of student loan? I think I could probably pay that off within the year.

Oh, no, no, no, no, That's horrible. Let's make a more marginal budget. That's so wimpy. No, like four months. $4,000 a month. Yeah, that's also realistic.

Yeah, it is realistic.

Yeah, it is realistic.

After that, I've got three kids that I pay child support as well. That's okay.

You ain't got nothing else to do. Stop your 401k and pay off your student loan in four months. When the house sells, immediately pay off the other two debts. There's nowhere to park the money because you're going to pay off the debt. It's going into your checking account, you're going to write a check, pay off the debts. And then in four months, $4,000 a month, dude, roll up your sleeves and get after it. Listen, it's a new phase of life, a new chapter. Let's make the page clean, okay? Don't screw around and go, Oh, I paid off $900 in a year. That bull, that's nothing. You all, do you want to know a game changer for your grocery budget? Start your weekly shopping at Aldi. Seriously, by making Aldi your first stop, you can easily check off your family favorites, from fresh organic produce to grass-fed ground beef, marinated ready-to-cook chicken breasts, and high-quality dairy products.

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Are you on track with the baby steps? Take a quick quiz for free to check your progress and receive a free personalized plan just for you. Simply head to the show notes, click the link entitled Are You on Track with the Baby Steps? And complete the free quiz. Sherrice is with us in Indianapolis. Hi, Sherrice. How are you?

Hi, good.

How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up?

Well, I'm calling my husband and I. Well, my husband agrees. I want to add an addition to our house. We've been in our house 14 years, and our kitchen is tiny, our house is large. We have a family of six, so we use all five of our bedrooms, and I have a home-based daycare, so we use a large living area as my business. I would like to add an addition on the back of our house, which would give us the kitchen that I'd like. It would also bring our laundry upstairs, put a bathroom on for the daycare, so they'd have their own bathroom, and it would give us a four-season room, which would just give us more living space. The addition would cost us about $150,000, and I want to refinance to be able to do that. My husband is on board but says, You would say, No way.

How much debt do you have not counting the mortgage?

No debt.

Good. How much money do you have, not counting retirement?

About $15,000 As personal, the daycare also has its own emergency fund of $10,000. Okay.

All right. And you're funding retirement now? Yes. Good. Okay. Sounds like you got a pretty good plan overall. What's the home worth today?

Today, it's worth about $375,000.

Okay. All right. So are you in a neighborhood or on a piece of land or what?

We are in a neighborhood. We're inside the city limits, but we're on a large lot. We have about three quarters of an acre, which is one thing that I love about it.

If I drew a circle of three miles around your home, what's the typical house price in that three-mile circle?

I would say, well, I found another home that checks all of my boxes. And It was selling for 875,000. I don't know an average price, but I would say that- That's not in a three-mile radius of your home, though. Oh, it is. Yes.

Oh, it is? Mm-hmm. Okay. So what are the houses on your street sell for?

Between 300 and, I don't know, 500 or 600,000.

Yeah, I do. They don't sell for that much. It's between 300 and 450, isn't it, You're getting ready to overbuild the neighborhood, aren't you?

Probably, yes.

You're going to have a house that you would try to sell for $600,000. People that are looking for 600,000-dollar houses don't drive on your street.

That's probably true. Yeah.

That means you've overbuilt the neighborhood. That probably means you need to think about moving instead of doing this.

How's the daycare business? How healthy is it?

It is very healthy. In what?

I'm spending off what? In what? Spitting off what? At all times. What did you make last year off of that profit?

Daycare, I made like 60,000. Okay.

I guess, Dave, where I'm going is, are we doing this for the space, or are we doing this because the daycare is in the house?

She does it because she wants a kitchen while we're doing it. It's a $150,000 kitchen, and some other stuff got scope creeped. Well, I have owned so many pieces of real estate, and I grew up in a real estate guy's house. My parents were in the real estate business, so our furniture was trained to jump on the truck. I don't get as emotionally tied down to certain locations as some people. To me, it's just a house. I think you might actually find something that better serves your needs for 600,000 in a neighborhood that's 500 to 700,000. Maybe it's a little more modern, too, and would be close enough that you wouldn't lose your daycare clients and those kinds of things. I think that's out there. Before I overbuilt the neighborhood and did a renovation, and by the way, I've also done a couple of renovations while I was living in the home, and I'll never do that again. It makes me want to shoot myself. It's just saw dust and drywall dust everywhere, and everybody's mad all the time. The subs are mad because they got to deal with the owners. The owners are mad because they got to deal with the subs.

You're screwing around inside my house while I'm trying to wash my underwear. It's awful. It's just awful. I don't recommend it. From a standpoint of that, this is a massive undertaking. It's a big deal. It's going to take a lot of your life away for a year or a year and a half while you do this, not to mention that when you're done, you've built a house that's weird, and it's overbuilt it for the neighborhood. You're going to have a hard time getting good appreciation out of it and getting a good sale out of it. I would consider moving About 10 times out of 10 before I did this deal. But yeah, if you did refinance it, the numbers we would tell you to go with are 15-year fixed on the whole mortgage cannot be more than a fourth of your household take home pay. If it's more than that, then it's just off the table, period. You can't do it at all. That's also going to be true when you move. It's off the table, you can't move. But I think you are getting ready to have another full-time job for a year on top of the full-time job that you have, which is renovation.

It takes up so much of your space. You burn so many calories managing a renovation, especially one while you're living in it. It's just a deal. I can't recommend that to you. It's going to interfere with your business. It's going to interfere with your marriage. When you're done, you're going to have an unusual floor plan on a property that you've overbuilt the neighborhood on. I just don't think there's not much good here. The only good thing in the whole story is you got a new kitchen. You all ever renovated a house while you lived in it? No.

We did a room over the garage, but it was, I guess, yes.

Yeah, but it wasn't like that.

It wasn't like a full blown to where it was interrupting everybody's lifestyle.

My old daughter took her house all the way down, but they moved out and lived somewhere else for a year. Yeah, that makes sense. Because she took it so far down, she couldn't work on it. I mean, couldn't live in it. It wasn't habitable. But they did a massive deal, and it's almost like building a dead gum house. A matter of fact, sometimes it's easier to build a house in terms of how much of your brain power it takes up and those kinds of things. Yeah, folks, here's the deal. The best place, you've got a range of 10 to maybe 20% price range of the homes on your street, the homes in your neighborhood. Be thinking about the illustration I just used when you're thinking about buying a home or you're thinking about doing a renovation. Dave, I want to put in a $25,000 pool. How many houses on your street have $25,000 pools? None. You're getting ready to spend $25,000 that you will never see again. That's a lot of swimming because that thing, you're not going to increase the value of the house. Now, okay, Dave, 60% of the homes already have a pool.

We're going to add a pool. The pools are very nice in our neighborhood, and $25,000 or $50,000 or whatever the deal is, you can spend a million on a pool. So does it fit the neighborhood? Otherwise, it's consumption. You really can't justify consumption at those levels. You're better off to move. When you're buying a home, try to buy in the bottom 25% of the price range. That is going to go up more. Because think about, everybody buying a $500,000 house wants to buy in a neighborhood that's 500 to 700. Nobody buying an $800,000 house wants to buy in a neighborhood that's 500 to 700. It's harder to sell and, consequently, does not appreciate in value as much. You want the full appreciation and you want the ease of selling it. If you're in the bottom 25% of the price range in your neighborhood, when you're finished with your renovation or when you purchase or when you do whatever, that's the sweet spot. But when you're in the top of the neighborhood or over the top of the neighborhood, you could get stuck in the thing. If you build an unusual floor plan, you're just about guaranteeing you're going to get stuck in it.

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Ron is in Indianapolis. Hey, Ron, how are you? I'm good, sir. How are you doing today? Better than I deserve. What's up?

Yeah, so I'm getting married in spring, and my fiance said I should probably give you guys a call for some advice. I have recently lost my job, and I am in a lot of credit card debt, and we're also trying to plan the wedding. So we're trying to figure out the best way forward. The question is, should I dig into my IRA account and take that money to pay off on my credit cards or more cash flow?

What was your job?

I was a construction project manager.

And what were you making?

About 75,000 a year.

And why did you lose your job?

Lade off.

Why?

I have no idea, to be honest with you.

They're not making money? I got told.

No, I do have a veteran's disability coming in. It's about $4,000 a month.

No, I said they are not making money. Was the The company you were working for hurting financially?

I don't think so. They let a team of us go and said, We just have to cut some costs. So I'm assuming we didn't see the big picture.

Commercial or construction?

Construction.

I said commercial or residential. I'm sorry.

Commercial.

Okay. All right, cool. When did you get fired?

I got back August. So it's been about a month.

And what have you been doing since then?

I have been going to school and applying for jobs like crazy.

Talk about the jobs you've been applying for and what you did.

So I've been applying for more project management positions, specifically in IT, because that is my education background. And I've had a few interviews. I had one today that was pretty successful. I'm hoping and praying that that goes further.

And what's the schooling? And were you doing the schooling while in the other job?

My current schooling, I'm getting a master's degree in information and communication. Yes, I was going to school while working that job.

You have no physical disabilities that would hamper you from doing this work?

Correct.

No, I would not cash out your retirement. I'd get a job. I'd get six jobs. Then when you get a real job, get rid of five of the six. But I'd be working like a crazy man doing everything I could because you got to pay for a wedding and you got to keep the thing afloat without starting to cash out your retirement. You cash out your retirement, you're going to get hit with a 10% penalty plus your tax rate. It's like borrowing money at 40% interest because you didn't get off your butt and go get a job. The good The news is you are off your butt and you have been looking and you did get an actual interview, so that's great news. You are moving your feet in the right direction. That's the direction. That's the answer. If you don't land something in the next two weeks and start working for 75 or 80 or 100,000, then you need to be delivering pizzas and walking dogs and cutting grass and cleaning toilets or whatever you've got to do to start making some money.

Yeah.

But no, don't cash your stuff out. Go make money. Go make money. Work, work, work. Doing something, side hustles, anything, and get the wolf away from the door because it's causing you to think weird. Your whole question is based on, I'm defeated, and I'm not going to allow you to be defeated. When's the wedding again?

May 30th, next year.

And who's paying for it?

We are. Okay.

And how much is the wedding?

We have cut it down to about $15,000. Good.

Very conservative. And you've got how much in credit card debt?

I have roughly $70,000.

Okay. So $85,000 changes your whole life?

Yeah. Yeah.

Once I quantify it that way, you're a project manager, I start looking at it like a project. Okay, how do we go get $85,000? What must What's going to be true? And what period of time, and what's reasonable? I'm going to work IT on the side, and I'm going to... Oh, by the way, you should be doing that. That's what you all be doing, is get some IT stuff, some side hustle there, because all kinds of that, you can pick up a freelance immediately on contract work and start helping people with IT, whatever it is, the hardware, software issues. But aside from that, I just set the goal. It's like I'm building a building. What's the process? Well, I need a budget, I need a plan, and I need a schedule. I'm going to plug the contractors, the subs into the schedule, and I'm going to plug them into the budget, and then we're going to execute and push every domino. When one domino refuses to fall, we're getting a new domino. In other words, the sub doesn't show, we get a different one. Or he comes in and decides he's going to double his bid, No, that's not how this works.

We have a bid, we're going with it. We hold to the project and we push, push, push, push, push. Okay, $85,000 in two years is 42,5 a year. So 4,000 bucks a month. That's what I need above my living expenses. I'm out of this whole thing in two years. I paid for the wedding and I paid off all the credit cards. That's not counting the fact that you're going to have a dual income after May 31st. I'm just showing you an example. How do you eat an elephant a bite at a time? But now we've got to go get the money to do that, and that involves getting employed.

If, this is a big if, you can pause the master's program, I'd pause it. I don't know if you can, but if you can, I would, because that'll still be out there. Right now, everything now is about getting out of debt, paying for this wedding. The master's degree is always going to be there.

Creating a sustainable situation, and that means income. That's right. We need income, income, income. Here's what's going to be weird, Ron. As you add income to this equation, whether it's four side hustles combined to make a full-time job while you're looking for the full-time job, or a full-time job plus four side hustles. As you add income, every time you add income to this equation, your confidence level is going to way up, and it's going to be associated with your level of activity. Then you're going to be much more appealing in an interview.

Yeah, that's exactly right. Activity is absolutely the key when you get let go. There's all kinds of data out there about it's the same thing, emotionally is losing a loved one. You have to acknowledge that, wait a second, whether I was a group of people or not, and whether I did anything wrong or not, if it was just a layoff, in this case, it's an economic layoff or the company's economics, it still hurts. And so activity is the key. It's still feeling valuable because you are providing value and getting paid for it. Dave, you're absolutely right on that. That's the best thing one can do. Lick your wounds for a day or two at most, and then get back into it and stay active.

So let's give him a copy of both books of Ken's, or two of Ken's books anyway, The Proximity Principle, which will help you in the job search. Finding the work you're wired to do, take the assessment in that and verify that you're in the right field and that you're heading into the right mindset. Both of those are a gift to you, Ron, and we'll just call it an early wedding gift. How's that? I'm going to fix this with income, not with cashing out my retirement. That does things for your heart, your soul, and your future. The cashing out the retirement does the opposite, too.

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Wonderful.

I either need confirmation of how I'm feeling or I need a kick in the shorts.

My wife and I are trying to decide if I should quit working, well, at least for a time. So every weekend and during many work nights, I do admin, property management, and accounting and HR work for my wife's small business, and we have a few side hustles, mainly rental real estate.

But during the day, I daylight as a manager at a construction company where I average 40 hours a week over the year, but that emphasis is on the average.

Winter is really easy, but the rest of the year, I'm just running on fumes. Between my wife's business and our rental and remodel side hustles, I work 25 hours more just during nights and weekends.

And I'm always behind.

I feel like I need another 5 to eight hours a week to catch up. If I hire out all that extra that I do, we estimate we'd add about 83 grand in expense, more or less, depending on the project load. I make 120 a year with bonuses to 40. My wife makes between four and 500,000 a year, which has been lower because we've had four kids in the last five years, and she's been on maternity leave for parts of all of that. This year, we're shaping up around 592.

What does she do? Next year, if we don't make...

She's an attorney.

And you're running the business ops side of the law office?

Exactly right.

Admin, HR, anything that is a mobile hour. How many team members at her law office? How many that work for her?

Five members, counting her. Okay.

It's not a ton of HR of five people, but- Just payroll every two weeks. That's accounting.

How much does your side work make spinoff for you?

For 2025, we're looking at 42,000.

Okay. If she paid someone 80 to be her admin, her office manager, and instead paid you to be the office manager, and you went down went to work for 80K, and you made 40,000 with the side stuff, that's 120, and then she makes 4,000 to 500 on top of that, right?

That's exactly right.

Okay.

I just love working, and I don't like to admit that I don't have enough hours in the day, and I just don't know if I'm being- Well, you did admit it.

You just gave us a very detailed breakdown. What you don't want to admit is you think you need a Superman cape or something. I don't think that's necessary.

What's the quandary? Why'd you call us?

What would you rather do? Be the office manager for the law firm or do the... What's your construction work during the day? Which one do you like doing? I like doing the other one. I want to do the side hustles. I think that helps our life.

We got four kids that in five years, they'll stop destroying the house. But for the next five years, it's hard to keep up with just the life's laundry eating healthy and all that stuff.

But it feels like a house husband was not in this equation until just now.

No, that wouldn't be what I would be doing.

I'd be doing the 25 hours of work plus the eight hours I think I need in addition to keep that up. You're going to have an office at the law firm, and you're going to get up and take a shower and go in at eight o'clock every day. Yes, exactly. And work there all day long, and from that home base, run the side hustle as well. Then both of you are going to go home at 5: 30 to be with the kids.

Exactly right. You're on.

You're on. Spot on. We're not working from home. This is not remote. You're going to go down there and run the freaking law firm, and it needs to be run much better due to you being there and become much more profitable. You ought to be cutting expenses and help the other attorneys increase revenue billable hours.

Yep, correct.

That's exactly what I want to do. If it wanted to be at 8: 00, I'd probably be at 5: 30 in the morning and be able to be home earlier and do those things because right I mean, you basically got two jobs. Which one do you want to keep is what it amounts to, and I think you've already decided. But I don't think you keep both. It's not sustainable. There's no reason. It's not like you all got a shortage of money. It doesn't prove anything. Listen, if you don't have a shortage of money, working 100 hours a week doesn't prove anything.

That's what I got.

It's a paradigm shift to wrap the head around. I think let's commit to increasing the value of the law firm as a result of you being there. Commit to the side hustle becomes increased in value as a result of you being there more fully. You end up moving from 120 to $150,000 worth of value that you're adding to the equation. Then she's making the $400,000 to $500,000, and you all are killing it. Yeah, that's what I'm doing. I'd quit.

All right.

But I'm going to work down there. I'm not doing this from my bedroom with my slippers on.

I just sense that you're still struggling with this. You know this is right.

What's holding you back?

Something's there.

It's a classic gazelle intensity and not knowing when to let off. In the last five years, we charged into baby stuff five, six, and seven, and how do we set off the gas?

This is it. This is how you do it.

Can I also say that I don't know that this is what you feel, so I don't mind being wrong, but I just have a hunch that you're a good dude and you believe in hard work. Hard work is a part of not just your identity, but I would say your value system. This feels to you like you're mailing it in while the wife is making big money and you're having a hard time with that. That's what I think is really going on. Am I right or wrong?

You're very right.

I thought so.

You should do this for a living, Ken. Yeah.

Well, I've talked to a few people. Here's what I think then. Okay, so thank you for being honest about that. What Dave laid out for you is not a guy who is mailing it in and letting his big-shot wife, lawyer, bring home the bacon. That's not what we heard from you, nor is it what Dave prescribed. So the narrative needs to be, Hey, I'm actually going to cut back on this other gig to immeasurably improve our life. And what I'm doing as the husband, as the man, I am making a massive change, which will also be a massive contribution. You believe that? I heard you say it. So that's what the focus is. So I get it. I completely see where you're coming from, but you got to change your focus.

I'm able to add enough value to this situation that it makes sense. That's what it comes down to. And that's what we did. I'm doing that. I'm not cloaking this in some weird work-life balance crap or this is an excuse to be remote, or all that. It's none of that. It's not you hiding at all. This is you stepping into another thing, but much more fully. You got your lack of focus. You're probably not doing great at either job. All of a sudden, when you start doing great at this job, I think you're going to see an increase in revenue and net profits anyway, whether it's reduced expenses or increased revenue on both the side hustle and the law firm, just because you're freaking paying attention all day long and you've had a good It's rest.

Yeah, it's an old phrase. I think they made it one of those cheesy accessory posters once. If you chase two rabbits, you lose them both. There's some great wisdom to that. There's just only so much you can do with divided photos.

I've never even caught one. What are you talking about? I know. If you chased a rabbit and caught it, I've shot them, but I'm not going to chase one down. Never was that quick.

I know. I said it was cheesy, but it's an old phrase. A lot of truth.

All right. Yeah, that's it. I mean, you can't... Tough to serve two masters.

We should say, If you chase two rabbits, you're going to be double frustrated.

Got to prove how slow you really are. Yeah.

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Today's question comes from Hannah in Minnesota. I worked for a small business for 30 years until it was sold a few months ago. I still work for the company under the new owner. My former employer surprised me recently by telling me that because of the part I played in his success, he will be gifting me $25,000 next month. I am not his employee anymore, so no taxes will be taken out. I've researched this scenario but can't find an answer on how I deal with this when it comes to tax time. Is it called a a gift, or should I ask for a 1099? It is not really compensation in terms of me working for it. I want to avoid tax problems if at all possible. That's outside my expertise. What do you think on that one?

I would sit down with a Ramsey Ramsey TaxPro, an ELP, an endorsed local provider under the Ramsey Trusted program and get an actual piece of advice. My opinion just reading this is it's a gift, you don't have to do anything. Now, the gift is large enough that it does trigger a gift tax, but that's on him, not you. If he tries to claim this as an expense in his business, then that's compensation. It's not a gift. Because a The business can't give a gift and write it off as an expense unless it gives it to a nonprofit, a 501(C)(3). If you give a gift to an individual from the business, it is not an expense. But that's not up to you. All that's up to you is you got a gift. Somebody gave you $25,000. It's that simple. I don't think it's taxable, but you should double-check with... You might Here's the problem. If he claims it as an expense, he has to issue a 1099.

Does it matter that this is probably coming from the proceeds?

It is. It's coming from the proceeds. Yeah, it doesn't matter. But he could claim it as a business expense and say, I'm just paying out some of the old employees and claim it on 1099. If he pulls a 1099 on it, now you got a compensation issue. Now you got to pay taxes on it. But if he just simply sent you a gift Merry Christmas from an individual to an individual because you don't work for him anymore, that's not taxable. So- Shockingly not. Yeah. Again, it is taxable on him if he hadn't got some tax advice on how he does this. Anyway, wow. Hannah's in Missouri. Hey, Hannah, what's up in your world?

Hey, Dave and Ken.

Glad to be on here. Well, good. Glad to have you. How can we help?

Yeah. So my My husband and I are newlyweds. We've been married for just shy of four months, and we come from very different worlds when it comes to money. I'm a pastor's kid, number four, no money in the family, and he's an only child and comes from a lot more money than I do. And we are still in that weird transition of just getting out of college, still young enough to be on parents health insurance. And I'm wanting to find the best way as a wife to encourage my husband to become fully separated from his parents financially. I know that that's the healthiest, the smartest, the wisest decision, but they still are very much like, Hey, you need something? Just call us. Give us a call, and we'll pay for it here, we'll pay for it there, and wanting him to stay on everything for as long as he can to soak up all the money he can. And I have not had that luxury. So I'm trying to find the best way to go about that conversation, I Well, I think there's two or three issues.

One is them giving you cash or buying items for you. Two is staying on health insurance. Three is staying on their Netflix plan and their cell phone bill, furnishing a cell phone or something like that. That's the stuff that you people usually look at not getting rid of that, those kinds of things. What What does he say when you talk to him about this?

Sometimes he's like, Well, they're just being nice. It's okay. If it's a really big thing that we need help with, he's like, Well, just let them help. I personally am just like, Hey, we can go without and struggle through this without having the extra help because that's how I did it for so long.

Give me an example of a big thing.

For me, it would be furniture. I'm used to living in an unfurnished house until you can get it, right? But they hear, Oh, he wants to the bookshop or wants a couch or whatever, and they're like, Well, let's just buy it. Let's just buy whatever he wants. I'm like, Well, no, we don't have the money, so let's just wait. I guess that's an easy example.

Yeah, that does. That makes sense. Okay. You've been married a year?

No, just shy of four months.

Oh, four whole months. We're not even there yet.

When you say that to him, does he dig in as to asking you why do you feel that way? I get why he says what he says, but I'm curious, does he lean in a little to understand where you're coming from?

Yeah, he understands why independence really matters to me. I think it's just all new to him. He lived with his parents up until we got married. So he has not been independent until about... How old is he? He's 24. He had gone to college, and they're just like, This is my baby boy, so let him stay for as long as possible. And I'm like,.

Well, the good news is they're very kind people. They're very generous people. They're not toxic about it. They're just being overly helpful. You're not describing bad people. You're describing sweet people, but they are violating boundaries, and you guys are not able to have the dignity of a standalone house, and you're missing that dignity.

Yeah.

They don't even realize they're doing that. These people are not... There's no malice in anything you've described.

Yeah.

I think you just continue to talk to him and say, Honey, I I'm not okay with us not having the dignity of a standalone situation. The only way we need a couch in here is if we buy a couch or if there was a special moment and they said, Okay, for Christmas, we're going to furnish the living room for you. That's an a day thing, but that's a Christmas. That's not just every time you had a wish, the stuff starts showing up on your porch. We don't need that.

I think it eats away at my pride a little bit because I'm used to being independent.

Yeah, it does.

I'm not I'm used to that, but I think you described that perfectly.

I think you need to set your pride aside when it's an honest and a clear gift versus a pattern. That makes sense. Like, for instance, Christmas, or for instance, they say, Hey, the whole family is going on a trip next year. We're paying for everybody. Set your pride aside and go.

Okay.

If they want to pick up dinner, same deal.

Mom and dad, they're old, they got money, they want to buy dinner when they take you out. I buy dinner for my kids, and my kids got plenty of money. But It's okay. You do some of those things, but those should be one-offs and individualized situations, not a pattern. What you're dealing with is a pattern that your husband needs to respect your desire for some individuality, some dignity on.

Yeah.

Honey, it's really, really important to me that we have our own Netflix account. It's really, really important to me that we have our own cell phone. It's really important to me that when you turn 25, we move the health insurance, and we've got a plan to do that, and we lay it all over there. Until then, we can ride this one. It's really, really important to me that we just don't randomly get things from them every time we had a wish. Sometimes, some generosity in individual holidays or birthdays or gifts or trips or something, we can look at those things. But this pattern of, They support us, I can't deal with. It eats my guts out. You could tell him that. He can hear Yeah, that's a good way to approach it.

I like that.

When I left home, I was more in your camp, and it was like, Good luck. You're on your own. Sink or swim. If you really get super hungry, call two days in advance. We'll have some spaghetti on the stove when you get here. But other than that, you're on your own, right? My wife, on the other hand, her family was more like your husband's family and very kind people, very generous and a lot wealthier, and I couldn't stand it. He owned a market, a convenience market. When we were going in at Thanksgiving, all the kids filled up their cars with gas. Oh, wow. To go back home. It drove me nuts, just like it's driving you nuts. But it's like that was a little gift, a little something. But they grew up going to the market and getting gas their whole lives because he owned a market. But now when you're 26, you should probably quit getting free gas from dad. It's like, golly.

John's in Minnesota. Hi, John. How are you?

I'm doing great today.

How are you guys? Better than I deserve. How can we help?

That was great. Say, I am currently dating a woman. We've been dating for two and a half years, and we plan to get married and all of that good stuff. And we've already talked about finances, and we're going to join them together, and we're on the same page about that. So that's all good. The question that I have is that we are both currently homeowners. We both operate businesses out of our homes. She has salon built into hers. And then I do IT stuff 30 hours a week, and then I'm also a musician, so I play about three times a week as well. And so when we get married, obviously, we only need one house, so I'm trying to figure out what to do. There's I don't have enough room for me to office out of that house as well. She has four children, and so I won't be able to move all my stuff and all my music gear and all that fun stuff there. So I do currently have a roommate that's helping with the mortgage. And so my dilemma right now is just, do I Keep the house and continue to office out of it and have that space as well?

Or should I sell the house? And then if I do sell the house, what could I do with the money and then rent an office?

So there's not room for you to move everything you do into her house with her salon and her four kids?

That's correct. Yeah, there's not even enough bedrooms for all the kids. One of them sleeps in the big main room in the basement, has his own little corner, and he's happy. But yeah, there's not even enough bedrooms for everyone to fit.

What's your home worth?

My home is roughly worth around $170,000, and I owe about $71, $72 on it. And so there's a decent chunk of equity in there. But I do also, I have an equity loan out right now to my ex-wife for $24,000. So it's probably down to about $22,000 now. Okay.

Okay, so what would... Let's see, you do IT work from home?

Yeah, so I'm a service desk tech, and so a lot of what I do is based out of the house. I get the tickets on the first-line response, and then we can remote into a lot of different clients that we have and help them. Otherwise, I do go on site, but I do need an office of some sort.

You don't need an office for your music?

No, but I do have a lot of gear associated with it. I do a little bit of recording. Most of the revenue from the business comes from actual performances. There's a small SUV's worth of equipment, essentially, that I also need to store and load and load all the time, too.

Okay. There's not a garage room at her house for that?

There's a garage, but it would need some substantial works in order to become a little bit more approved from the elements and stuff. We're in Minnesota. I don't know if you've been up here. It's a little colder in December here than it is in Nashville.

Heard the rumor.

What What is the mortgage on the house that you own?

He said 71.

No, what's the payment? Sorry. I'm going somewhere with this. The monthly payment, what is that?

The payment is 960, so it's not a large payment at all.

The reason I'm asking that is if you play this out the way you laid it out, I'm wondering what would it cost you to rent a small office space.

I started investigating that. In the downtown area here, it would be about 5: 50 to get an office, and then it could be first floor stuff, too. I would have 24/7 access to. So when I need to access it to load and unload gear for the weekend gig.

Oh, so you could also store the stuff there as well?

That's what they're telling me. I haven't had a chance to tour yet.

Where I was going next, the next question I was going to ask you is, what's going to cost you for a very small storage unit to store the stuff? I'm going to at least run through those numbers, if I'm you, to go, if I sell the house, clear my debt, and my expenses actually can go down. In other words, I'm not paying a mortgage anymore over there.

How much is your roommate paying you?

Five-fifty.

So your net out-of-pocket is about $400 if you keep the house?

Correct. Just for the house. But then double up on utility bills and all that. If I rent an office, as far as I saw that they were communicating to me, I want to pay for internet or your air conditioning or any of that fun stuff.

I think the office is a better play because I think it simplifies your life. I think keeping the old house is a more complicated thing, and it's going to take up more head space while you're trying to learn to be married to a lady with four kids who runs a beauty salon. While you're trying to run your business and everything, you've got one more thing to deal with, and that's roommate and all this other stuff. I think the cleanliness of it, the simplicity of it, of being in the office, it feels really good.

That's what I'm leaning towards as well, too. I've had the house. I find the papers with my brother and my father the day after I turned 18, so I think a lot of my hesitation is probably sentimental. Yeah.

But it is, we are turning the page to a different chapter in your life. You're not going to be a married dude. And so married dudes have different things. Nothing wrong with that.

This is true. Nothing wrong with that. And I'm trying to let go of that side of it, too. And I'm working through the baby steps right now. I was up to my step one being complete, but I just had to get some- How much debt do you have? Not a whole lot. Like I said, I do have a home equity loan.

I had a home equity loan. No, I got that. But I mean, how much debt other than the house do you have?

$6,000. Not very much at all.

Okay, so you can clear that, too, by selling the house. Oh, yeah. I can definitely come away with the money in the property. This advances you into baby step three pretty solidly. Does she have any debt not counting the house?

She does. She has some credit card debt and stuff like that, too.

Yeah, you guys combining your finances, cutting up her credit cards, and clearing all this debt with the sale of your house and moving into this office. Now, I've got a whole another reason to do this. Yeah, sell the house. Okay. Yeah, and get out of debt, both of you, and you're both together are now unified. This is upon marriage, of course, we're talking about all of this. Then we're combined and we're moving forward. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's the way to go. Lynn is in Ohio. Hi, Lynn. How are you?

Hi there. Good.

How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up?

Well, what's up? My son, when he was around 18, cosigned for a car loan with a girlfriend at the time who is now an ex-girlfriend.

Wow, that was stupid.

It was really stupid, and I had no idea that this had happened because he didn't ask me about it before he did that, or I would have said, No way. Now, of course, they've gone their separate ways, and She's not paying. Well, not very well. Okay.

Is the car in his name or her name?

I believe it's in her name. Okay.

Nothing he can do except talk her out of it.

Well, we tried that. I've tried to encourage her to refinance with another- You tried to encourage her to refinance or he did? I did. I've talked to her, but she has since stopped communicating with me.

Well, no kidding. Who wants to talk to you. That's right. You're completely interfering in something that isn't even yours. Boy child needs to grow a backbone and call his ex and get this straightened out. He hasn't even seen his mama in.

Well, I don't think she'll communicate with him either.

Yeah, well, that's the only one she should communicate with because that's going to keep him from suing her. But you got no footing in this.

He wants to file bankruptcy to get his name off of her.

No, he didn't I saw bankruptcy on a car that hadn't been repowed just because he's pissed at the ex-girlfriend. Let's just take stupid and double it. No, no, no, no, no, Boychild doesn't made this bed. He gets to work in it. Yeah, he needs to call her up. He needs to get an attorney and tell her that if the car is not sold or refinanced in 30 days, that he's going to sue her and ask the judge to force her to sell the car because she's not paying on time and she's destroying his credit. Wow. But you cannot. This is not your job. Let me tell you what, if she didn't hang up on you in the first 30 seconds you were talking to her, there's something wrong with her. She shouldn't have been. I mean, who are you calling me? That's what she would have done.

I'll tell you what this is. This is that helicopter mom. Hey, I'm trying to help out my boy. What are we doing here, man? This is the thing that's happening in this generation. The parents are showing up in places that if our parents would have shown up in.

A buddy of mine got himself into a mess when he was that age, and he called his dad, who was an old Marine sergeant, and he said, Dad, what do you think I ought to do? And he goes, You're big enough to get yourself into this. You're big enough to get yourself out. Call me and tell me how you did it.

I'm going to finish my glass of sun tea. Talk to you later.

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Welcome back to The Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Ken Coleman Ramsey personality, and number one best-selling author is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us, America. Michael is in Seattle. Hey, Michael, what's up in your world?

Hi, Dave. I'm a single parent with disabled children, and I have about 15,000 in Sally May loans and 80,000 in government student loans on the SAFE plan. And I've done Baby Step One. I'm doing the Every Dollar app, and that's going well. And I've been getting my hands on your advice and on your podcast about student and how to try to improve that. I'm just looking for some advice on what to do here.

Okay. You said you had your single dad of disabled children Tell me about that.

Yes, sir. I take care of them, and I take care of their needs. They have medical appointments throughout each week that I take care of.

What is the nature of their disabilities?

Intellectual disabilities, neuromotor disabilities.

All four of them?

All of them, yeah. All of them have a variety of disabilities.

Wow. And you have full-time custody?

I have full primary custody.

What does that mean? Does that mean you have them all the time or what does that mean?

Yeah, I have them most of the time. I don't have them for a few weeks in the summer and then I split Christmas and spring break.

What do you make? What do you do for a living?

I work as a care coordinator, so I help people get into a assisted living homes. I help people get on a variety of Medicaid waivers, and then I help them get disability supports. And I currently am at an hourly rate, and I'm working part time. But as I build my clientele, it moves to a commission. And it seems like the commission is actually a pretty good commission. For example, part-time commission is about 5,000 a month A full-time commission is closer to 8,900 a month, but I'm not there yet.

Who's watching the kids when you're working?

They're at school. They're at school, and then after school, they're watched by family. Okay.

I'm just sitting here listening to this, and it feels like you need more money. You need to make more money.

Yeah, I need to make more money.

That's why- What's the long term? You got a lot going on, but let's just assume that you could snap your fingers and do the thing you wanted to do and make more money.

What is that? At 8,900, when you get to that point, are you going to be okay?

I feel like I would, yes. It's a good job. There's a lot of potential for growth. It takes four to five years to really learn it, and I've been doing it for about a year part-time.

Why are you only part-time?

Because I'm taking care of the children.

Well, then how would you be able to be full-time? Say that again, sorry. How are you going to be able to move to full-time?

I've been I'm slowly adjusting my or increasing my hours. I've been able to work a little bit at night, work on the weekends from home.

Well, you told me just a few minutes ago that the kids are in school, and then when they're not in school, family's watching them. So that would tell me that you have time to work full-time.

They get to school about 9: 30, and then they're out of school about 4: 30. I commute an hour each way, and So I'm working Tuesday through Friday from about 11: 30 to about 4: 30, and then I need to pick them up by 5: 30. So that's my work schedule.

Okay. So what glares to me is we need to get a job locally or two jobs, talk to family. I mean, you've got to really step this game up here. The work situation you have is not helping you. In four to five years to be able to make that? It's not sustainable. You got to make way more money than that well beyond four to five years from now. So you need a new professional plan is what I'm trying to push at you.

So are these children adopted or biological?

Biological.

Okay. And is there a prognosis to be self-sustaining as adults, or will they always need care?

One of them will probably always need care.

One. Okay. I don't know the answer to the equation unless there's some way you can do some of the work remote and some from the actual office that allows you to be there as much as you're trying to be there. I don't know. You've got two things pulling at you that are both very valid things. One of them is very valid is to make enough money to clean the mess up and have a sustainable life. Two is to take care of these children. You're a great guy trying to figure out how to do both, and I don't have a great answer for you. But bottom line is what Ken said earlier, and you already knew that before you called, Michael, is this is a math problem, and it's an income problem. And so what can we do? How can we shift around how we're caring for these children, or who's caring for the children, or whatever? What can we do to get you in a position that you can make your 8,900? And that means you're working full-time instead of part-time. And I don't hear how you're getting there right now. But yeah, it's a terrible paradox to be stuck in between this.

But it's also one that you've been appointed to solve this. You've got to create some income while providing this care. I don't have a magic wand. I don't know where to tell you. I wish I did. If there's anybody who wanted to help today, it was you. Man, what a thing.

Yeah, I would just say, simplify this. We've got to find something from 9: 30 to 5: 30. We've got to get a job that doesn't require me to drive 2 hours a day. There are some things that can be changed here which will make this far less hectic for you because you already got a hectic life. So simplifying so that you can then maximize your income is the goal here. Without us giving you super specifics, that's the goal. So I'm thankful that the kids are in school, thankful that you got family to support you. That does give you a chance here, even though I'm sure it feels really, really hard. You can get out of this.

It is hard. It is about arranging life in such a way that you can make a living.

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Mary's in Colorado. Hi, Mary. How are you?

I'm doing well. Thank you, Mr. Ramsey. Thanks for taking my call. Sure.

What's up?

I have a whole life policy, and I've been paying on it for the last five years. It's got a cash value around $35,000 currently, but I pay $792 a month. I was looking to see about canceling that and cashing it out. The only problem is the reason I ended up with the whole life policy was I had life insurance through my employer. The employer did a relocation I left the company, and I had it converted to a whole life due to medical cancer diagnosis previously, so I couldn't qualify for any term life at the time.

Are you single?

No, married.

Okay. All right. And what is your income?

My income is 50,000 per year. My husband is 150.

Okay. And how old are you two?

44.

Okay. All right. And do you guys have any nest egg bill? Any 401(k)s or anything like that?

Yeah, we have 1. 5 in retirement, 500,000 liquid investments, and then our home is paid off 1. 5.

Okay. If you had no life insurance and died, your husband can probably struggle through. Given that he's got $2,000 or three million dollars and $150,000 income.

Yeah, we originally got it because the kids were really young at the time, but now five years later and they're- Well, my point is you are self-insured.

The purpose of life insurance is to replace lost income in the event someone is dependent upon your income. No one's dependent upon your income. If you die, your husband's got $3 million in $150,000 income. Did I miss something?

No. I guess if that happened, I was previously staying at home, so he would then want to maybe make adjustments in his income, maybe not work, take care of the kids until they're grown. Yeah.

But he's got $2 million. Correct. Yeah, I think it'd be okay.

We're only 44, so we still have to live in Phil.

I wasn't saying he was going to quit forever, and I wasn't saying we're going to drain the account. But my point is that your little whole life insurance policy is irrelevant financially, mathematically. Agreed? Yeah. So don't keep getting screwed by these people then. Cancel this thing.

Cancel it and then take- Take the $800 and build wealth with it.

You don't need term insurance. You don't need insurance. If he loses your $50,000 income, mathematically, he's okay. I'm sure he'll cry, but mathematically, he's okay.

Yeah, we would rather take that $792 a month and- Invest it. Invest it in our- Yeah. In our stock.

Yeah, absolutely. You'll make a whole lot more money. If you had been doing it for the time you've been doing this, you'd have a whole lot more than 35,000. Agreed?

Agreed. Well, at the time, we didn't have that networth. Over the last five years, we've paid off our house and done other things.

You've done a really good job, Mary. You guys are in great shape. You don't need this policy.

Okay.

That's what I'm saying. You understand why I'm saying that?

Yeah, because we're self-insuring with our investments now and things have changed in terms of-Yeah.

We have no need for it. The need for it. Just cancel it and put the $35,000 in a good investment and put the $800 a month into a good investment and quit getting screwed by these people. It's wonderful. It's a wonderful thing to get rid of these people.

I got nothing to add. I mean, you just have to realize the math on this and go, wait a second.

Here's the thing. When When you're 30 years old and you have no money and a bunch of debt and you have three little kids, you need term life insurance to cover the loss of your income because your family is dependent upon your income to eat. But fast forward 20 years and you're 53 years old and you have $2 million in your 401k and your house is paid for and the kids are grown and gone, your need for life insurance has gone away because you got out of debt and built wealth. No one needs life insurance their whole life. Hello. That's why they call it whole life. You know why they call it whole life? Because they want a commission from you their whole life. That's why they call it whole life. Not because you need it for your whole life. If you need life insurance your whole life, it's because you did a crummy job with money. Because you got none when you're old. You got a big pile of debt and no money saved, no investments when you're old because you didn't do a good job with money. Then you will need life insurance to bury you.

That's about it. But the purpose of life insurance is to cover your family while you can't, as soon as you can, quit buying it. Whether it's term life or whole life, but certainly a whole life.

This product It's just nuts. 792 bucks a month.

Yeah, and $35,000 is all it's yield. That's it. It's just horrible. It's just terrible. Can you imagine what would have... Yeah, anyway. Yes, you did good, Mary. Can then cancel the policy. Dalton in Detroit, Michigan. Hey, Dalton, what's up?

Hey, how's it going?

Better than I deserve. How can I help?

I'm in an interesting situation because mathematically, this shouldn't work, and historically, this shouldn't work. I have a home. I've got about $190,000 equity. In my life, we're looking at buying a second home as a rental unit. So we go and to get a home equity line of credit, which doesn't make any sense to me, but the bank will give it to us at a 5. 1% interest versus getting a mortgage on the second home, it would be a 6. 25 %. So typically, your Helox or your home equity line of credits are going to be greater interest Not necessarily.

Not over investment property, because investment property is more risk for the bank than your personal residence is for the bank. Got you. When they got your personal residence, they got you by the neck.

Yeah, that was my question is, if I use a home equity line of credit and then something happens to the rental home, I don't want to lose my primary residence.

Yeah, you will.

Versus if you mortgage- You will, and I wouldn't do that.

I wouldn't do it.

And an LLLC can only lose that property.

No, they can sue you for the deficit. You're personally- LLLCs can't sign for a mortgage. You can put the property in an LLLC's name, but you're still liable for the stupid mortgage. If the house doesn't sell for enough at foreclosure to cover the mortgage, they're going to sue you for the deficit 100% of the time. So they'll still come take your home. So overall, that's the reasoning for these interest rates, which is, I guess, why you called, but you're going to get something more than you called for, and that is, don't do this deal. You don't have the money to buy a rental, and you shouldn't buy one.

So the home we're looking at is about 75. There's three options, and we have about 90,000 cash. It's in Detroit, and the area that's being I'm sorry.

You have 90,000 in cash, and the home is 75?

Right. But it's in the revitalization area of Detroit. So typically, it's been appreciating the area.

I know. Do you have to spend money on it after you buy it?

I'd have to spend about 15 to 20.

Okay, so why don't you just pay cash for it?

Because that's our nest egg for- Oh, because of the risk. Any repairs to... Yeah.

Yeah. So you're trying to ignore the fact there's risk by borrowing money, and instead, you're adding risk by borrowing money. That's true. This is a form of financial denial. Denial is not just a river in Egypt, buddy. Yeah. You're trying to hide this from yourself and act like it didn't happen. Please don't buy this house. I can't stop him. He's going to do it. Forget it.

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Oh, I'm absolutely peachy. How are you?

Better than I deserve, Brandee. What's up?

I am trying to find the way with as much grace and kindness and love as possible to get my mother-in-law on her feet and out of the camper in our backyard.

She has been in that for three years. Cousin Eddie's in the backyard. It's your mother-in-law. Wow. How long has she been there?

Yes, three years.

In a van down by the river. Oh, my gosh. Wow. How did this come about?

Well, we moved here from North Dakota in '21. We did the same thing. Spent three months in a camper on my mom's property, but we're on top of employment and housing right away. And we're in a home in three months. We purchased our first home. We got five kids that we did it with, too, by the way.

So you spent time on her property?

No, my mom.

My mother. Oh, your mom. My mom, yeah. And a camper?

Yes.

With five kids? Yes.

But we're at my mom's place. She had them in the house at the time. They've got 20 acres, plenty of room to run around, play in the pond.

And so you were there for how long?

Three months.

Okay. And then you bought a place of your own. And how did your mother-in-law end up on your place?

She waited to follow us down because it was a single mom, only child situation with my husband and her. And She was about a year and a half after we did it. She was like, Oh, I think I'll do… That sounds like a good idea. It worked really well for you. She came down, was in the camper. Here she is. I don't know how to broach the conversation at this point.

Well, it's not with her, it's with your husband.

Yeah, I've had that with him as well. And he struggles.

He's the problem, not her. She's the symptom.

He has a hard time telling his mom, Hey, I love you, but it's time to... Yeah.

Shocking. There's been some- Basically, this lady didn't really even ask permission to move on the property. She just told you all she was doing it.

No, it was a conversation, but we expected her to be quicker about it and do similar to what we did.

Did you have an agreement that she would be quicker about it?

No. I mean, to be completely fair on our end of things, no.

We did not hash that point at all. You want to come down to the camper back there? That's okay. That was the whole discussion. Yes. And no one's ever correct her. She actually doesn't think she's doing anything wrong.

I mean, I have. I lost my mind on her once. I said to not so nice thing, so I'm trying to go about it more politely this time.

How long ago was that?

A year and a half. Oh, no, no, no. Wait, no, that wasn't a year and a half. I did that. No, it was a year and a half ago.

And your husband couldn't have been thrilled with that either, yeah?

No, because he was there when I started it, and he walked away and put his hands off.

So now you're a year and a half removed from, you lost your mind on her. Number one, she didn't move. Number two, your husband didn't force the issue. Number three, you're more pissy now than you were then.

Actually, I'm less pissy.

Wow. That's fascinating. I'm not that I'm living in the category. That's fascinating.

You have you on the pissy category. All right, on the pissy spectrum, but the… How old is she? 63. And she has no money? Yes.

No.

Okay. So what makes you think she can move? Why do you think she can move into a sustainable situation when she has no money?

She's working, I think. I know she works part-time cleaning houses, and that's part of my issue. I work in a middle school. I'm a para-professional. Over the summer, I'm home all summer. I was tracking, How often are you leaving? What are you doing. She's got cleaning jobs that she does, but it's not very much. I think max 20 hours a week. I don't know how to broach with... I don't know how to say it lovingly because I don't want it to be gone.

You're way up on the pissy spectrum, so you can't say anything lovingly. Oh, I am not. The problem is- Yes, you are. There's nothing loving going to come out of your mouth. Besides that, it's not your job. It's your wimpy husband's job.

See, you enjoyed that too much.

You can't do it. No, I didn't enjoy that. Because it won't work if you do it. No, there is nothing you can say or do that's going to work. The only thing that's going to work if you want her to move It's for him to have a conversation that says, Mom, I'm going to help you get a place, and you're going to have to get your hours up. And by the time Christmas gets here, you're going to be hanging your stockings in another place, or whatever I don't care what the date is, but he needs to sit down with his mom. He needs to have a conversation. We were not planning to do this forever, and we need to look at a timeline where I'll help you get things going, and let's figure out an apartment, and let's get the camper sold, or let's find you a little piece of ground, and let's get your hours up so you have a sustainable life. She's not asking you all for money, is she?

No. Okay. Which one of my suggestions to him was, I think that we should ask her for rent.

No, you don't want her to stay. No. Don't ask people for rent that will pay it.

Okay, fair enough. My thing was after X amount of time of asking for rent, saying, Okay, here's a lump sum, not a minute for them.

No, you just wanted something that felt righteous in this whole deal.

You don't want any of that. I'm not going to help you with that at all. I'm just going to be practical and look, your husband has to handle this, and he has to sit down and have a personal It's a quiet conversation with his mom. If he doesn't have a backbone, he can run down to Walmart and pick one up on all three and sit down and go, Mom, we got to get you a thing that's a better life for you than a trailer in my backyard. Now, let's figure out where we can get you a place, and let's figure out how many hours a month you got to work to get that done, and I'll help you with your budget, and I'll help you get the trailer sold so you got some money to move and so on. But you do not want- She won't accept help with the budget. I'm sorry?

She accept help with the budget. She knows what she's doing with everything.

She will if your husband sits down and says, Mom, if you don't do this, you have to leave anyway.

She has asked us for help and recommendations on things like, What do I do with my car? And then when we give her legitimate recommendations, slaps them all down. I have come up with lists of low income and senior housing, different apartments, and said, Hey, here's some good options. Hey, here's some good options for this. Here's some good options for that.

You haven't heard a thing I said. I have. You said my husband- You came up with all these options. You are the wicked witch of the West in her eyes. She does not want anything to do with any suggestion that comes out of your mouth. You need to quit. You need to stop doing this. You're no help. You're a problem. You're not a help. Your husband, however, needs to take the list that you came up with and go sit with his mother without you around. You don't even need to be in the county when he does this. Like four counties over at happy hour while he handles his mom. You cannot fix it. She ain't listening to you. She ain't listening to you in a decade. I can promise you. She's had it with you like you've had it with her. You have no grounds for persuasion with this woman. She does not think you have her best interest at heart. You know why? Because you don't.

No, not at all. We don't think you're a bad person. We just hear a person who's exhausted. You're over it. You're over it. You have none of those left to give. If you know what I'm saying. I'm trying to fix this.

The only way you're going to fix this is install a backbone in your husband so baby boy deals with his mommy. That's what's going to have to happen. The only thing you can do, and then stand back and watch, and hopefully he'll wander over there and get it done. Probably not at the speed you would have. But that's your only shot, Brandee. You can't come up with any more solutions.

That's a marriage problem. You and your hub has got to get together because you're a couple cocktails away from a Jerry Springer episode. None of us are above it, but I think you are on your last nerve, and I get it.

It's funny, though. It's hilarious. Yeah. Goodness gracious. Hey, by the way, that's a good recipe for everybody, regardless of how pissy you are, or how far off the pissy spectrum you are, is how about you let... Do not fix the in-laws. Let the blood relative of the in-laws do the fixing, and you stand back with suggestions way in the distance, and don't let them even think the suggestion came from you. That's always a good idea. Our Scripture of the Day, Romans 13: 1, Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. P. J. O'rourke said, Giving money and power to the government is like giving whiskey and cars to teenage boys.

True statement.

Yes, it is. If you're buying or selling your home, it's a big deal. You will want an expert. Oh, yeah. Rates are coming down. It looks like boys and girls. You're going to want somebody in your corner if you're going to list that house or sell that house that is an expert in real estate. Not someone got their license three weeks ago and is your aunt Sally. Bad idea. Bad idea. Ramsey Trusted program is the only way to find a top agent you can trust. Make your home a blessing, not a burden. You can compare agent profiles, interview them, choose the right one to work with among several that we have vetted for you. Find a local Ramsey Trusted real estate pro for free at ramseysolutions. Com/agent, or click the link in the show notes. Kevin's in California. Hi, Kevin. How are you? Hi. How are you How are you doing? Better than I deserve. What's up?

Yeah, I had a question. I got divorced a few years ago. My spouse used to handle the finances from a late bloomer financially. I got about a year to go at my work before I'm eligible to retire and get a pension. Basically, I would be making the same money with a combination of the pension and my Social Security as I am making now.

How old are you?

I'm 63.

Okay. So you're going to retire at 64?

Yeah, I was hoping to. I might still do something else.

What do you make?

I make about 66,000 a year.

Okay. And what are you going to do with the rest of your life?

Gee, I didn't think of that. I would like to spend time with my kids and do something. I definitely want to work or do something positive and just also be able to pay my bills. I do have a house. I owe 418,000 on it. It's worth about a million. I have a $60,000 heelock and a $10,000 credit cards. And my question is, when I retire, do you think it's okay if I pay off the Key Lock and the credit cards with money from my IRA and 457 plan?

How much is in there?

Combined? Let's see. Well, let's see. I have 136,000 in the 457 and 56,000 in a Vanguard IRA.

So you only have $200,000?

Yeah.

Okay. All right. I would maybe want to work a couple more years and build that nest egg a little larger. It's a little scary, small. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think during that time, you need to pay off the heat lock During that time, you need to pay off the credit card. Cut up the credit card tonight. But I would get on a written budget with a set goal of how much nest egg I could build in two years and be debt free. Because you've got another problem here. You've got a $418,000 mortgage, and that is not something you want to carry into 90 years old. We need to have a plan also to get that mortgage paid down and off. It could be a five-year plan or a six-year plan, eight-year plan or whatever. But you've got to develop some way to get rid of that mortgage because that thing is going destabilize your retirement.

Yeah. I do have hopes of putting in a junior ADU in my bonus room. My brother is a contractor, and he was going to do that for me. I would just have to pay for the materials, which we estimate would be about $10,000.

What about selling the house and buying a $600,000 paid for house?

That's a thought.

Yeah. And then you'd be debt-free going into retirement. I think I might go that rather than trying to look for a roommate. I don't really want to retire with a roommate. That's just too gross. That's how we started our lives in college. I don't want to end them that way.

I agree.

Oh, man. I think you've got to think the math part through a little more, and that's probably going to lead you to work a couple more years and pile up your nest egg, clear the debts, and then say, Okay, when I retire, I'm going to sell the house. I'm going to move near the kids. Maybe you're not near them now. And into a $600,000 paid for property or whatever your equity is that you can get out of the house. But if you can go into retirement with $300,000 or $400,000 and a paid-for house, that's a whole different It's a solid ground than you've got with a $418,000 mortgage and a $200,000 in estate.

Yeah, and including that math, Dave's right, I would extend the amount of time working, but I'd also begin thinking about, what does that next chapter look like? Because you said you still wanted to do something, that's very normal. But I would be looking at what would be really enjoyable work that I could do after retiring from day job one and still make some decent money for the sole purposes of continuing to contribute to your retirement. Yes.

Casey's in Boise, Idaho. Hi, Casey. How are you?

Hi, Dave. I'm well. How are you doing?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

I have a question for you. My husband lives in Canada, and I am here in this space. I am planning on moving there in the next few months. I'm trying to get a current job transfer with my company into a similar position so I can have an income when I move there. Thankfully, we're in a position where he can support us, if not. We've laid it all out, worst case scenario, where we can afford everything we want and still have $4,000 at the end of each month to put into savings. But what we're trying to decide to do right now is between renting and buying a home. That's just where we're at.

I would rent for one year.

Rent for one year? Okay.

Get everything settled and stable and learn how to be married.

Okay, that's helpful. I have my house in Idaho, too, and so we're planning on renting that out. And we'll probably hold on to that. I just sell it.

Use that money to buy your house in a year.

Okay. Okay, got it. That's helpful. Okay, perfect.

See how all this feels very clean?

Yeah. That was my thoughts on it. We've gone back and forth on everything on should we buy, We rent and we've played it all out, and we're just up in the air. Even a conversation we had 30 minutes ago.

I think the-We're just trying to go back. How old are you two?

I'm 32, and he's 30.

Both first marriages?

Yes, both first marriages. Okay.

It takes a year to get to know each other well enough to figure out which house to buy wisely.

Okay.

We always laugh and say it takes a year to know how close to your mother-in-law to buy. Yeah. That may not be the case, but that's a joke. But the point being, you will know stuff about each other and have insight into this relationship one year later that you do not have today.

Okay, that's very helpful. Okay, that's something I can even consider.

It will call you to pick a better house in a different house. Absolutely. And you would pick today. There's actually a biblical standard for that, for those of you that are people of the Book. In the Old Testament, when the Kings went out to war, if a person had been married, they were not allowed to go to war in the first year. They had to stay home and be a husband. They wouldn't let a manuliewe'd go to war. Takes a year. So It's good stuff. Fun, fun, fun. Good for you. Sounds like a good exciting adventure you've gone into. It all sounds positive and good and upbeat. That's fun stuff. But if you can... Because if you buy a house with your boyfriend, which is who you are right after you got married, versus your husband of a year, it's a different conversation.

Right.

I mean, 20 minutes after you're married, it's a boyfriend still.

Yeah, you got to figure out That's what we're bringing into this thing. The other thing we didn't really hit on is we caution people about being long distance landlords, and now you're talking about in another country. Having a house in Idaho while you're living in Canada just creates a bit of an onion there that can unravel in a not so fun way.

Yeah, and it just puts more pressure on a brand new marriage. That's what I meant by cleanliness. It's just crisp and clean. I like it. I just like things simple. That's the people that build wealth. They keep things clean, very focused, very simple. Everything's not disorganized and chaotic and bifurcated and everything else. There we go. Good show, Ken. Well done. Thank you, sir. That puts us hour The Ramsey Show in the Book. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.