Transcript of Don’t Quit When the Journey Gets Hard

Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio this is the Ramsey Show. Dr. John DeLoney, Ramsey personality number one best selling author and host of the runaway hit on Ramsey Network the Dr. John DeLoney Show. He is my co host today. Cody is in Nebraska. Hi Cody, how are you?

You know Dave, I am better than I deserve. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Well guys, I'm going to start off a little bit of a doozy here so I do apologize but my wife and I have just recently found out that her parents are asking my wife's sisters that are under 18 for money for basic bills. We don't really know. You know, I've heard in the past you guys say like don't say anything unless they come to you and ask for help or guidance. We're just kind of stuck because you know my sister in laws are 1012 and then 17 so I'm just kind of, we're kind of confused on what to do.

How much money do they have?

Well so my, so the younger sister in laws they were you know working over the summer. So basically what happened was, is you know my sister, my 10 year old sister in law told us that well mom and dad kept tight saying that we don't have enough money for groceries this month and blah blah blah. So I offered him my $400 that I got from dog sitting and they took it for groceries and then our or my 17 year old sister in law came over two weeks ago and said that they had quote unquote borrowed $1,000 from her for, for bills for last month to cover.

Is this true? Are they struggling that bad?

I would, I would say so, yes. It's been talked about. You know a couple months ago my wife overheard that they're like $10,000 short a month. He my f owns his own business and it's been, I know it's been struggling for quite a while.

So I, I want to put things in order. I have you hear us say on the all the time you can't help family unless they come ask you. But before that I'm always going to protect kids of course and if you got a 10 year old that's coming to you saying dad is saying I don't have enough money for groceries, I need your dog sitting money then I would personally I would insert myself into that Situation.

Okay, okay. And that's what we were thinking because, you know, it's, it's really hard for me to have respect for people like that, that, you know, they are in a situation where they rely on everybody else to get them out of their problems. They blame everybody else except for themselves. A lot of this is self caused just based off their career choices that they've had. So it's hard for me to have respect. It's hard my wife to have respect as well.

So how long have you, how long have you been worried?

It'll be two years in February.

Okay. Yeah.

I'm gonna take back what I said. I would have your wife call, not you. But okay.

Yeah, yeah. And I think she. Yeah, because here's the thing. If the two of you go over there at two years into this and insert yourself in this situation, you are changing the trajectory of the next 40 years.

Of course. Yep.

It's not simply the situation. Yes. What you're describing is 100% disgusting. I'm not questioning that at all. And if they were abusing the children physically, we would just turn them over to children's services, right?

Yeah. That's not happening.

Be that simple because we're just not going to allow that to happen. They're just abusing them financially. And so I think, But I don't think your wife, your wife's what, 20 something years old?

Yeah, she's. She's 23.

Yeah. If she sits down with her mom and dad and says, y' all need to stop this, y' all need to become responsible adults, my guess is about a zero percent chance that that's going to have any impact.

110%.

And if you show up saying I don't respect you guys, they're going to take it out of their house. That's not going to help either.

Yeah. That's a 40 year, that's a 40 year long discussion. I'm trying to think. In other words, what will work is more what I'm thinking about what Dave.

Tell me if I'm wrong. So my thought is when I, when I say insert myself into that, it would be your wife calling mom and dad and saying, can we talk? And she's got to be careful because the backlash could come down on a 10 year old.

Right? Yeah.

But we just, in my.

Sorry, go ahead in. My idea at first was like, you know, my wife, I told her, I was like, what if you like take your mom out to coffee and be like, you know mom, we've heard some of this stuff from, you know, my sisters. Like, how bad is it?

Is it really. Is that really happening? Are you all really that bad? Yeah.

And is, is there, is there ways we can help or is there ways we can support you or is there education? They may say, absolutely not. And then it's about giving your, your niece or your sister in law, if you will, a safe place that she always knows she's loved somewhere else. But that's just going to. She's going to have eight years of mom and dad borrowing money. Exactly.

Exactly. And you know, that's our fear because, you know, they're setting the kids up for just a lifelong.

Yeah, but you're 25. You're 24. I would stay out of that for right now.

Yeah, that's not, that's not. Okay, that's actually not true either. It's. It's a bad. It's a bad on ramp to life, but it's not an on ramp that can't be corrected. A lot of us have bad on ramps. Yeah. And then we get the opportunity to meet Jesus and change our life. Okay, so then those kids have got the same thing. They're not being a physical. Physically abused.

Yeah. So let me. When I say insert myself, I don't mean you flex and put on a sleeveless shirt and go bang on the door. I, I think, I think your wife taking mom out for coffee, taking dad out and saying, hey, we just happen to hear this. I'm worried about y' all how.

And I'm worried about my sisters.

Yeah. How bad is it?

Definitely.

And then y' all two have a hard conversation about could you help? Will you help? And all that. Because the next question is going to be, well, can we have $500? And y' all already had that predetermined discussion before she heads into that.

No, go ahead and I'll give you the answer to that. No, you're right, because they're saying they're $10,000 short a month. So I'm not throwing good money after bad. So I. We only give. Ramsey's only give into situations where we create a sustainable story. We don't throw money at something $5 or something that's $100 problem. That's not. You're not creating a sustainable story. Then you've got to fix the problem. You got to get down under it. And so that's going to involve maybe what I would pay is for them to get with a Ramsey coach. And the Ramsey coach boxes their ears and says you have to sell the three cars you guys, you cannot afford these stupid cars. You can't afford to live in that house. Oh, maybe you need to get a job because your life, your business is not a business. It loses money. It's called a hobby. And so no, we're going to have to, you know, these types of things are going on under the scene because if they're $10,000 short, the thousand dollars from the 17 year old or the $400 from the 10 year old doesn't fix it, nor does $500 from you fix it.

So don't do that. But do say, I'll cheer you on. I'll help you do a budget. I'll connect you with some people and pay for it for you to get some coaching to get yourself out of this. You've struggled with this your whole life. I've watched you. I'm your daughter and you know, I'd love for you to be free from these demons.

And you and I have talked about this before on the air, but parents don't like hearing money advice. So if she sits down and says, y' all need to start, that's not gonna go well. But that idea of sitting down saying, hey, I'm worried about you. How bad is it? Are y' all okay?

We are. And then tell them your story, that's a different avenue. Yeah. We are on a budget and it's giving us great peace. We have sold some stuff to be able to get in, get our, our income in line with our outgo and it's given us great peace. And if I could ever help you get with our coach, we'll show you how to do that. That.

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Michelle is in Utah. Hi, Michelle, how are you?

Hi.

Days before my wedding, I was laid off as the breadwinner and a month later, my husband quit his job without asking me. He didn't have a savings or financial plan to get us through. I made a tight budget with my personal savings and gifts we received from our wedding that he agreed to, but it's been so bad, we had to go on welfare. It's been months. And I recently discovered he secretly transferred money from our joint account to his personal account, spending 3,500 in about a month and a half, leaving us with almost nothing left. When confronted, he refused to share bank statements or make a plan to.

Why aren't you working?

Behavior. I got laid off.

I know. Like, months ago.

Yeah. And it's been tough.

And you're still not working. Why?

Yeah, it's been really tough. I've been applying for a lot of different positions over. I'd say, at this point, 250. I'm happy with the amount of interviews I've been getting, so hopefully I'll find something soon.

But you've been not working for six months?

No, not six months.

I'm sorry.

Month?

Three months. You've been married three whole months? Yeah. And all three months have been hell. Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's been bad.

Did you. Did this surprise you, or did you notice about him coming in?

I.

He's been. He's a medical resident, so he spent essentially his entire life in school, so I did flag these things while we were dating as what I saw as problematic behavior, just poor spending habits.

He's a medical resident. Does he not get paid for that?

He does, but a month. Like I said, a month after we got married, he decided he wants to go into a different specialty, and we quit. Quit his job?

Mm.

Medical residency. And you don't have your md?

He does have an MD but he wants to go into a different field within surgery, so he wants to start a different residency, but it will take time for him to find that position.

Here's the thing. Your marriage challenges are deeper than spending and deeper than him quitting.

It is.

You don't respect this guy at all. And when. When life three months in or a couple months into your marriage threw you guys a pretty big curveball, your biggest fears about him were exposed, and you've reached that place. The Gottmans call it the worst of the four horsemen of the relationship apocalypse. You're at contempt. I don't like you. And I think that I would be handling this different than you in a better way. And unless you address the. Your marriage at that level, y' all are just going to keep playing whack a Mole with symptoms. You're going to create your own checking account, your own savings plan, your own, your own. He'll do his own. His own. And you already are roommates. Y' all will have a divorce inside your own house. And so, okay, sitting down and saying, I don't respect you. Here's how you've chosen to handle this. You quit your job. You quit this. You're not participating. You've got your own stuff. You don't want to be a part of this thing that we're building. We have to build a new marriage three months in already, and you got to call that.

And then you also sending out applications. It sounds like you're hustling, but there's also something about you regaining your own dignity by just going and working at Burger King on the breakfast shift just so you can feel like you're getting underneath yourself, too, because it's easy to start throwing rocks back and forth at each other, right?

Mm. Yeah.

And I. I do respect him.

It's just.

No, you don't.

You don't. You don't.

You wrote a letter that you read over the air that said, I don't respect him. Yeah. You just read it to us.

No, I didn't say that.

No, no.

All the words.

The words say that.

All the words that you wrote in that letter say that.

Is that in a really tough moment, he quit his job and took off.

Without you, and he stole our money that we agreed to. While I'm trying to be the one that is the adult and make everything behave, and this guy's misbehaving here, here, here, and here.

I don't blame you for not respecting him. That's not respectable behavior. But I think you like owning that. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

Yeah.

So what's your question for us beneath these other questions, like, how can we help you?

So in trying to move forward, like you said, I realized that the issue is much bigger than, let's say, just money. Right. But in trying to address behaviors in both of us that maybe led to this happening, I asked him to share his bank statements with me so that we can address some of these behaviors together. But he's not being cooperative and hasn't done so. So I guess what I'm wondering now is what boundaries and improvements do I need to see and should we see in request to go forward? Because, honestly, I don't blame different people for having different financial knowledge, but I think we should work together to make that. To make each of us stronger in that regard. And honestly I'm just concerned that even when he is a full blown surgeon making that salary and several years this we still won't be financially stable because the spending would be.

It doesn't start with the spending. It's the spending anchored into the fact that you all have a marriage where he has his bank statements and you've got yours. Y' all should have bank statements that anyone can pull up at any time that y' all talk about together regularly.

Yeah, right.

You're 100% right.

And that's why he actually joint savings and checking.

If he actually does complete resumes presidency which would surprise me. But let's say he does. You are. Your fears are 100 grounded. He's going to make half a million dollars and he's going to say this is my money.

Right?

Yes, you're right. I would be terrified of that if I were you to.

So what do we. What's the next step for her?

The next step is you being honest about sitting down and saying, do you want to be married with me? This should have been a conversation y' all had before you got married. I'm not going to marry somebody. I'm not going to connect life with somebody that won't engage with dreaming about a joint future together where we put our money in the same account because that funds our dreams and our commitment to each other. But you already hear.

We have transparency and we have a joint. The tactical things that we are doing with every dollar we are deciding together before we do them.

Right.

And that's part of my concern.

Separation and deception. Separation and deception can't go forward.

I see. We did make a joint budget going into this and did make a joint savings with our money and a joint checking. But in order to hide the spending habits, he transferred from our joint savings to his personal account. And that's why I can't see the transaction.

And we call that financial infidelity. He's cheating on you. He's deceiving you.

Do you have any idea what he spent it on?

Yeah, unfortunately, just generally speaking, he wouldn't show me the statements. But it seems to be personal grooming, haircuts, buying stuff, her hair, fast food and paying off his personal credit cards. Although going into this, given the severity of the situation, we had agreed to not making payments on our credit cards at this time temporarily.

Okay, so he's got a really good haircut and he's debt free. It sounds like he's leaving.

Okay, it sounds like. It sounds like he's Setting up another move.

Yeah.

Either that or he Absolutely 100% is not interested in building a life with you. He's interested in continuing his life next to you. And that's a very different proposition. That's not marriage. That's roommates with benefits.

Can you imagine if I told Sharon I spent money on a haircut?

I can imagine the eulogy I would read at your service. I can imagine that.

Wow. I'm not saying the guy's bald. I'm just saying.

Yeah, there's something scary about. Here's something scary about sitting with a spouse three months in or three years in 30 years in creating a plan, shaking hands. We're gonna do this together. And then you find out they went off on the side and did whatever.

They wanted to do.

Whatever they wanted to do.

They completely lied.

Yeah, they lied to you.

So this is an integrity and trust breakdown. And you can't go forward with deception and integrity and trust issues. So you guys have got to sit down and go. What the teenagers used to call a Define the relationship.

Tdr.

Dtr.

Dtr.

That's right.

Dtr.

Yeah, dtr. Define the relationship. And so is we or isn't we? There we go.

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Hey David. And Dr. John Deloney. I'm awesome. I'm just happy to talk to you guys. I'm sorry, I'm nervous.

No problems.

You're good.

How can we help, sir?

Okay, so I'm a young veteran and I joined the military right out of high school. I did my four years, got my degree and two years ago at the age of 22, I moved my wife and kid to Florida to start a military sponsored internship program at one of their approved companies. At the end of that internship, the owner of the company promised me $180,000 salary if I bought his house. That promise was put into an offer letter and an employment contract and that offer letter solely qualified me for no money VA jumbo loan. So I proceeded to buy his house for $830,000 with an $845,000 mortgage at a 6.75% interest rate and a nearly $7,000 a month payment. Immediately after I closed, he cut my pay, making that offer letter fraudulent. And over the course of the past two years, my pay has progressively been cut as he ran the company to the ground. And as of two weeks ago, I'm completely unemployed. I'm owed over 150,000 in wages. I've since vacated the house, got a rental house for my wife and kids. I start a new job tomorrow, but I'm being forced into a short sale and we'll be about $200,000 underwater.

So my question is, what would you do if you were me and what are my options to minimize the damage to my credit and my future home buying privileges?

So at what point in this process and how many times in this process did your heart try to tell your head how Stupid. This was.

I could tell you a long story of how I was, you know, convinced it was very legit company. I mean, I interviewed.

I mean, you never stopped and looked at this and said this is a bad idea.

Oh, no. I mean, the company had like 50 owners.

I'm not talking about the company. The company doesn't matter. The whole story you told me. If the company is completely. Yeah. On the up and up, if they're really financially strong, and if they followed through on everything they said, this is still unbelievably stupid.

Yeah, I agree. Now, looking back, I mean, at the time I was 22 years old and the guy seemed like he was made of money. I thought I was doing him a favor because he found out he's having twins and he want his wife. He said his wife wanted a bigger house. But yeah, I agreed. Looking back now, I was completely scanned. I never should have got in this situation.

Ever heard the phrase if something sounds too good to be true? It is.

Yeah. This is it.

Yeah, this is it. You're like the walking definition.

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh, honey, I'm so sorry.

Yeah.

What hell you have been through. Thank you for your service to the country and you deserve to be treated better. I'm so sorry.

Yeah, He's a veteran too, so he's taken advantage of veterans and that's not unusual.

As you know, there's veterans outside the gate of every single base for the next two miles just as soon as you leave the gate on each side of the road for the next two miles is stupid. Like every stupid human trick is right outside the gate of every military base and most of them are run by veterans screwing over current active duty people. So it's not unusual at all. I wish I could say it was different, but we know too much of about your world. All right, so.

Yeah.

Why did you move out?

Because. So the mortgage is going to go overdue starting October 1st.

Yeah. So.

And I know my credit is going to get ruined, so I won't be able to.

Why did you move out?

So I could start the short sale process or whatever as soon as possible.

You start short sale process while you're living in it.

Yeah, that's true. I don't know. I just wanted to get it over with and just move on with my life as soon as possible, I guess.

It's interesting. All right, so a short sale is where the house brings less than the mortgage. And if it is a short sale, remember this phrase because you're gonna have trouble getting it with your Veterans Administration. And it's the only way you want to do it. It don't do it. If you don't get this phrase, and I doubt you're going to get it, but you need to get this phrase without recourse.

Okay?

So a short sale is the lender looks at the situation and says, my borrower is a 22 year old that doesn't make enough money to pay this bill. And it will never happen in this century that we're going to get our money. The only money we're going to get is out of this house. And so we're going to accept a $600,000, $800,000 offer, $700,000 offer on this house and whatever of the mortgage doesn't get paid, going to forgive it without resource. That's without recourse. That's a short sale. The Veterans Administration seldom does a short sale without recourse. But if they have recourse, they're going to sue you for the difference. And it's no better than a foreclosure.

Who will sue me for the difference?

The veterans? Yeah, the va. And believe me, they will sue you.

Because what the, the realtors have told me is that the va, they just eat the difference on the short sale.

If you do it without recourse, they eat the difference. But let me tell you, I got to tell you, nine out of 10 times, they don't. Now, the FHA will eat the difference. If you talk Fannie Mae, a conventional loan into doing a loan, doing a short sale, it's typically without recourse. But the va, oddly enough, ironically enough, which is designed to help veterans, is going to screw you. They're going to hammer you. So I'm afraid for you right now, but it's the only route you've got. So take the realtor at their word. But do not sign this unless it says without recourse. I do not want them chasing you for the difference. If they're going to chase you for the difference, make them foreclose.

Okay?

Do not do a deal with them and then them screw you. You've been screwed enough by people you've done deals with. So yeah. So whatever the, whatever the buyer offers, the VA takes that amount and forgives the rest. Say it with me. Without recourse. You got that phrase? Yeah. I do not want them coming after you for the difference. And the paperwork needs to say that. And you need to freaking read the paperwork. Yeah, because the VA is supposed to be there for veterans, and quite honestly, they're not yeah. Yeah. Otherwise they would have never made this loan.

Yeah, I mean, I reached out to them. They did an audit into the origination of the loan, and they said it's legit. That the company who's named after the owner has the same last name that I bought his house with an offer letter that he signed to work at his company. That didn't raise any red flags? Apparently so.

Yeah. But the point is, if you have a 22 year old who's never made any money in his life and he Suddenly is offered $180,000 for a job that is not worth $180,000, somebody ought to look at this and go, it violates common sense. Because, son, going to get $180,000 job anywhere else. Were you?

No, that's. That's why I took it.

No, that's why. That's why we knew it was a scam.

Yeah.

Yeah. And you shouldn't have taken it.

And I would recommend an 22 year old buying his first house, not buying an $860,000 home based on a bogus.

Salary amount that you can't get anywhere else in the marketplace. The whole thing was a scam from day one. It was never going to happen from day one.

Yeah. I could elaborate to Dr. John about how this guy is like the textbook definition of a narcissist.

Sure.

You know, he had a whole company of a bunch of people convinced. Until now.

Sure.

That everything was legit. Is he legit? It was all a lie.

You know, Ethan, what I. What I want to do, though, if I'm in your shoes, is not define him. I want to ask myself, what was I being that allowed me to step into the bear trap? Yeah, yeah. He. We get. Obviously this guy's a scumball. Okay. But you obviously walked right past several warning flags, and you need to learn from those so you never walk past them again. Because I did the same thing when I was your age and I went broke. And that's what I'm trying to keep you from doing. I don't want you to get there. So if you're gonna do something stupid, at least learn from it. And this whole thing was stupid. It. The whole thing is a nightmarish mess. I'm so sorry, honey. Yeah. Without recourse. That's your phrase for the day, my man.

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Are you ready? Are you staying on track with the baby steps? You can take a quick quiz to check your progress and receive a personalized plan just for you. Simply head to the show Notes, click on the link titled are you on track with the baby steps? And take the quick free quiz. We'll send you a personalized plan. Kirk is in Colorado. Hey, Kirk. What's up?

Hey. So I got a real estate question for you.

Okay.

We have a property that. Well, we. There's an open property next to us that came up for sale, and I'm trying to figure out if it's a good idea, maybe a good investment to buy it.

You have the cash?

We do.

Okay. How much is it?

So they're asking 40,000.

For what? For what? What is it?

So it's an empty lot. It's 1.3 acres. We live in a rural area, so everyone's got about 1.2 acres that everyone lives on. We enjoy having open lots on either side of us. So buying this would A, prevent someone from moving in and building next to us, and B, I had the idea of incorporating it into my lot. So at that point, if we ever sell in like 10 years and move, we would be selling 2.5 acres versus 1.2 acres.

Okay. All right. And you're out of debt except your home.

No, we are 100% out of debt. We own our home.

Okay. And you have the cash. All right. I would buy it. I have done that quite often. I bought 22 acres next door to this building that I'm sitting in. Commercial property. I bought vacant lots adjacent to every Property or several properties that I own when they come available for buffers, as you said, privacy, the enjoy of a little extra space, and sometimes just to keep contiguous things going. What I would not do is combine the properties. You can combine them when you sell them simply by selling them both.

Okay. Would it be cheaper as property taxes? One first?

Having two different lots might be a tiny bit, but $40,000 worth of property taxes is not much in South Dakota.

Okay.

We're talking about a biscuit. So I sold a big. I built this big, huge house on a hill back in the early 2000s, and I sold it in 21. I had purchased two 5 acre tracts that were contiguous to it that were big lots in the area. So I. And had a little green space around it too. So I was basically sitting on about 20 acres. All right. But I did not combine the lots of. When I sold it, the buyer of the big house didn't want the other lots, didn't want to spend that much. And so what ended up happening was I sold the house itself at a premium, and then I ended up selling both the lots at a premium. They built next door to him as his choice because he didn't want them, but I ended up with more money that way.

Okay, that makes sense.

Yeah. So. But if he wanted them all, I offered him everything in one package and he didn't want it. Right. The buyer, which is fine. It's okay. It's his place. He didn't have to do it. He was not as concerned about buffer as I was. Right. So I liked having 20 acres around me a lot, and I kind of missed that. But. Yeah, but yeah, that's where we are. So. Yeah, but keep it separate. But yes, I would buy. And I don't know that the investment will work out to be a big deal for you if the 40 turns into 80 over a decade. You did good. I'd be shocked if it did that. But more than anything, it's peace of mind and control of the environment around you. And you've deserved that. You've done a good enough job with your money to buy that.

I would. I bought that yesterday.

Yeah.

No question about that. And God bless any place in the country where you can get an acre and 1.2 for $40,000. I would buy that on principle, I think.

Yeah. There's people. Yeah.

Geez.

Wow. Scott's with us in Ohio. Hi, Scott. How are you doing?

Good. How about yourself?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

So I am working through a little bit of a financial Situation where I'm trying to understand if I should continue to be laser focused on my debt payoff or start planning for my future at 42 years old. So I am a single income earner household with no kids. I make about 150,000 a year. And at the end of last year, I started to realize that just my numbers weren't adding up for my income. I was constantly behind the ball trying to move money around to pay all my bills and just came to the realization that I was both stubborn and financially illiterate.

Dude.

Wow, that's brutal.

Welcome to the meeting. I'm John and this is Dave. We've been there too, brother.

Yeah. So I built a really strict budget. Since January 1st, I've paid off 37,000 in debt.

Wow.

I'm down to one credit card, which was. I had 27,000 in credit cards in January. I'm down to about 9200 on a credit card that is now at 0% interest and paying about 1200amonth on it.

Okay.

Then I have a home loan for my roof, a car, student loans, and finally my mortgage.

Not counting the mortgage. What's the rest of it?

Let's see here. About 53,000.

And you've already paid off 37 since January.

Yeah. So I should have that paid off in about 16 months. And then I'm left with about 196,000 for the mortgage.

Amazing. Well done, sir.

Outstanding, dude.

Thank you. And then I have about 71,000 in my 401k. Nothing at Roth, nothing in HSA yet.

And you're not adding anything to the 401k currently?

I know I am because of where I work. I get six.

Oh, you didn't. You didn't understand the program. The program is you stop the 401k.

Okay.

Oh, now we're going to get out of debt in 12 months. This is so cool.

I have about 12k in reserves. I have a century home.

Wait a minute. Now we're going to pay down that credit card today.

You're going to be gone today.

Look at this. Now we're out of debt in 10 months. This is so cool.

Okay, look, listen. You've created a. Either save myself now and not help myself later or help myself later and take longer on this. And what I want to tell you is every dollar you pay off right now is helping future you.

Yes.

Your shortest distance between where you are and financial security and wealth is not screwing around with your match. And it's not hoarding that $12,000. It's leaning everything the way we taught you. And you're not doing it, but you need to go do it. The shortest distance between where you are right now and that is 100% debt freedom. Because when you don't have a stinking payment in the world, you rebuild that emergency fund very quickly. Then you start putting 15% of your income away and you're young and you make 150,000 later, you're going to make 250,000. 10 years from now and you're still putting 15% away. You're going to have $10 million if you do what I tell you to do instead of doing it your way.

Well, that's what my goal was. This 6 to 10 million for being realistic. In today's climate with inflation and everything, I feel anybody in their 40s is going to need 5 to 10 million to have a comfortable life at risk.

60 is even better. But you know, it's okay. It's, you know you're going to be okay. You'll be okay with a million, but you'll be better off with six and you'll be better off with 60. So. But the point is, quit trying to screw around with this system that works. Dude, you really have made good progress, remarkably without doing what we taught you to do here.

Here's the deal. You're running a marathon and you're at mile 14. You just passed the halfway mark. I mean, I mean not dollar wise, but you're running and you're kind of getting tired of running. And when you get tired of running, you start giving yourself reasons why you can go ahead and just quit. You've already done the training. You've proven it to yourself. What if we just went and got a burger? Hear me and Dave say, finish this race, man. Okay, you're tired. You don't like sending 1200 bucks every penny away. We get it. You're. Dude, you on this thing.

What do you owe on the car?

16,000.

Okay. Not much. All right, good.

And then my house is worth about, I think it was 345 and I only owe it.

That's going to be paid off in like seven years the way you're going. So you're doing so good. Yeah, seriously. If you will take 10 months of doing it my way and have almost nothing in savings down to $1,000, baby. Step one and stop your 401k for a lousy 10 months. The ground you'll make up as a result of that because of this increased focused intensity is going to get you out of debt. So Fast mathematically and psychologically and spiritually. Because the feedback loops are going to kick in and you're going to go, I love this. I'm paying off more and more and more, more and more. And you're going to get out. It's. That's what happens in the brain. And so that's kind of how it sounds.

My brain isn't quite so old witchcrafty. But I get it.

That's a.

That's like a. Yeah, like a wizard.

Whatever.

You're the Inspector Gadget evil laugh. Right? Yeah.

There you go. Yeah, it's like. There we go. You can do this, man. But quit screwing around with it. Get it done. Hey, quick reality check. AI isn't just for sci fi nerds and Silicon Valley tech bros anymore. It's the new weapon of choice for every scammer with fast wi fi and bad intentions. Identity thieves could be using AI right now to steal your info in ways that would have sounded impossible just five years ago. We're talking voice cloning, deepfake videos, filing bogus tax returns, draining your bank and retirement accounts, and even home title fraud. And it can happen fast, so most people don't find out until it's too late. So as someone who has had his identity stolen before, I don't mess around. I use Xander ID theft protection because it keeps up with today's threat without the crazy price tag other companies charge. You get real time monitoring across your whole financial and digital life. And if something does go down, they'll give you the full white glove treatment like 247 restoration services by pros based in the US and up to $2 million in stolen funds and expense coverage. So you don't need to live in fear, but you do need to be smart about protecting your identity from thieves.

So go to zander.com or call 800-356-4282 and get yourself protected. Directed today. Welcome back to the Ramsey show in the Fair wins Credit Union Studios. Dr. John DeLoney, number one best selling author, host of the the Dr. John DeLoney Show. Massive hit on Ramsey Network. He's my co host today. Open phones at Triple 882-55-5225. Lynn is in New York. Hi Lynn, how are you?

Good.

How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

I wanted to see if I should take out a $10,000 loan to help my mom fix her kitchen. There's some emotional reasons why I would and why I wouldn't and ultimately I'm trying to see if the financial. The financials make Sense to help me make the decision.

So you don't have $10,000 to give your mom?

I don't know.

Okay. And your mom's broke?

She. Yeah, she has a pension, she has Social Security. She's retired, so she's on a fixed income.

How old is your mom?

She's almost 80.

And how's her health?

She's actually quite spry for her age.

Good. Okay. And what's wrong with her kitchen?

She tends to hire do a lot of DIY and like hire handymen who aren't quite handy. And so a few years to renovate the home in general.

Oh, I see. Okay.

Yeah. And so, you know, she's half funded projects over the years and it's left the kitchen, you know, with only a subfloor, no cabinets, no countertops. It's just kind of in a state of disrepair. And she is older. Even though her health is pretty great. I worry about, you know, her age and food safety, physical safety in that space.

Wow. Really bad decisions.

Yes.

Okay. Man. I just appreciate how much you love your mom. That's sweet of you. And that you want to take care of her and you don't want to live in a house that's probably wouldn't pass codes right now. So. That's nice of you. You do know you called the show where we'd never tell anybody to borrow money, right? You know, you called that show.

I did. And I'm, you know, I'm trying to. The other part is, you know, I've worked really hard over the last few.

Years to get out of debt and you know, and I'm not going to tell you to spend $10,000 on an 80 year old's kitchen. The math doesn't work. I mean, if you had a million dollars laying in your account and you want to spend $10,000 on an 80 year old's kitchen, that's fine. But I wouldn't do that. And I certainly wouldn't borrow the money to do it under any circumstances. But I do applaud your heart. Now let's try to fix the problem though a different way. So is your mom and a good church?

She.

I would say she does go to a church.

Good.

But the church is the place where she has been recommended these people who have like fixed her home.

But that's even better. That's even better. So here's what I want you to do. I want you to take some pictures of the mess that is her kitchen and I want you to go have a lunch meeting with her pastor and Say some of the jack legs that go to your church have done this. And so I'm going to ask, since we have an elderly widow over here, that you organize a work group of some young men who actually know how to swing a hammer and come over and put her some cabinets in and put a floor down. I want you to take care of an elderly widow because she's an elderly widow and she's a member of your church. And I really want you to do it because some of the jack legs that go to your church are the ones that caused the problem in the first place. Place. And I got a feeling you can shame this pastor into getting some work done.

Okay.

Nothing feels better than shaming a pastor.

I'm messing with you. I'm being harsh, but that's what I'm saying.

But can I tell you this is some of the best advice I've heard you give? Dave, I love this idea. Because you know why it is? It's the bluff call. Are y' all going to be who you're supposed to be? You're going to take care of widows and orphans? Orphans. Here you go. You got quiet on us, Lynn. Why don't you like that plan?

I mean, the handbook says that's real religion. Widows and orphans. Yeah, that's what it's a handbook says.

My mom, she doesn't like accepting help. She's not always the most.

But she was going to take a $10,000 loan from you to do a kitchen. That's called help.

She didn't ask me necessarily for the loan directly.

But you were. You had a plan where she was going to do that. So let's have a plan where her church supports her because her church is jack lick are the ones that mess this up.

And by the way, this is going to be good practice because over the next 10 years, she's going to need more and more support and care from you and.

And others. And you're going to have to get out of the habit of debt fixes anything because it makes it worse. Yeah, because I don't want to give you a negative scenario, but I really don't want you paying a loan off after your mom passes away and you're paying payments on a kitchen that she's no longer using. That would be really, really negative. Can you imagine writing that check every month?

Yeah. And it wouldn't be. It wouldn't be an investment in that.

Sense that I wouldn't.

So it's not.

Yeah, no, it's not. It's just consumption. And it's just your sweetheart wanting to help your sweet mom. And I think both of you are sweet ladies. And I don't want her to get messed over anymore. And I don't want you to mess yourself over trying to be sweet. And so let's not do this. Let's not step up in this trap. I'm real serious. If it was you, if I was you, I'd go have them, and I've got the money to write the check. But in this case, I think this church has an opportunity to serve.

And that's the other side of it, is they have an opportunity to live out a mission with the congregants of that place. This is one of those rare win, win, win, win wins, where everybody wins. And a widow gets. An elderly widow gets her kitchen put back together, and the church gets an opportunity to go help somebody out. That's awesome.

And I don't know how we got here, but seriously, if a recommendation came from inside of her congregation and they left an elderly widow in this situation, the pastor really has an opportunity to work with that person on their character, right?

Absolutely.

Because you just don't want to be on this list. You don't want to be on the list of people messing with kids, widows and orphans. There's several things in the scriptures that are really don't, don't. You don't want to be on that list. You want to be on the list of the people that help those people. That's the list you want to be. It's the naughty list and the good list. I mean, that's. This is it not Santa Claus, but it's God. And so, you know, you know, it's serious stuff.

That's a. You know what? That's a great idea. I hope that happens more and more.

Well, you have so many opportunities to do things that way. And honestly, I work with so many churches. I mean, we work with had 50,000 churches, have taught 10 million financial peace congregants over the last 25 years. And I know a bazillion churches that have the funds and have the systems to take care of the single mom, the widow, the orphan. And they don't always know a way to connect to one. And so just giving them the opportunity, letting them, hey, here's one. And they go, thank you, and they're ready to go do it. It's pretty incredible that they're just standing there ready to go. They're willing, ready and able. They just don't have the connection. And because no one wants to raise their hand and say help me.

And I know a number of young men who are asking, hey, there's no places to serve. Like I can go to a local soup kitchen or something but I got to go get in line and there's all man, if you could go to church.

There's a 25 year old Bible study group of men at that church. Show up on a weekend was their weekend project. They can put that whole kitchen back together, be amazing. Y yeah.

And then they'd all walk a little.

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Today's question comes from Ava in Ohio. Ava writes, my significant other and I have been together for 15 years and we have two kids together. We're both 30 years old. He's currently scraping by being self employed, making roughly $65,000 annually but pays taxes of about 6,000 bucks and his reimbursed expenses are included in that 65k making his true income about $26,000 a year. We do not have joint finances. I pay for everything for us, from the house, utilities, Groceries and even his health insurance. I make 163,000 annually. He does have some great skills to get a decent job, but chooses not to. How do I motivate him to get a better job and ask him to start paying for part of our family expenses?

I don't think you can. Nope. In 15 years you hadn't motivated him to get married. I don't know how you gonna motivate him to get a job. And by the way, 30 years old. We've been together 15 years. This started when you were 15?

High school, man. Yeah, it's Dawson's Creek.

I don't, I don't want to wait.

This is good, man. I like, I like teenage romances. But he's got a pretty good setup here. His wife is rich. He can kind of do what he wants.

You have three kids.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Just one of them's humongous and old. I, I think the path here is to sit down and be honest about you spend half your life together and to sit down and say, we've been co managing our lives. We've been running in parallel. And I want to make, I want to start making a marriage. I want to make a life together. Not where I have my money. You've got your money. I pay all the bills. You just kind of do what you want when you want to do it.

It.

But what do we want our life to look like? How do we want to feel when we come home every day? What dreams do we have? And here's what it's going to take for all of us to get where we want to go. He's probably going to say, I'm good, and then pop the top on a cold Budweiser and go on about his day. But that's where that conversation starts.

And.

David.

Yeah, I, I, but I, I also. Okay, this is how the, the problem is not just that we're here, it's how we got here. Okay? There was never any request for this man to grow up. This is an adolescent.

Exactly.

And so he didn't have to get married to have kids and to start a life with this woman. He could just run. He doesn't have to develop a career. He can go over here and do something. I'm going to follow my passion. Oh, brother. You're killing me here. And you know, we're broke, but I'm real passionate about it. No, it doesn't work. So the problem is you've got to undo at least 10 years worth of mixed messages that you've been sending with your behaviors, but with what you've allowed.

And this is not about you get what you tolerate. Exactly. Exactly. But this is not about we can't make ends meet. This is about, we've got money. She makes 163k, and he makes 26. So they're making 100.

They make 200 grand a year.

Right. They're fine. The deal is, I don't respect this guy that I've been with for half my life.

Yeah.

And you got to have that conversation. Are we gonna do life together or not? And here's what that looks like.

And let me ask you this. It occurs to me, and I'm stepping over into your. Your field of expertise, your world. But it feels like to me, not only does she not respect him, she knows she allowed all this.

Exactly.

And so she's starting to be mad at herself.

Almost all of this starts with, I'm angry at myself, and I'm gonna put it out into the world.

Yeah.

And so, yeah. If she wants to sit. And that's why it's so important when you sit down and have these conversations to use I statements. I've allowed this. I have gone out and created a world where.

Where we're not married.

We're not married.

Two kids.

You don't have to do anything.

You don't work so much.

I'm saying I want to be connected and build something together. And that's where this is a scary thing. You kind of got to do one or the other in this situation. Ava has to have an or what statement. Here's what I want to have in my life. Or I'm gonna go ahead and move, like, solidify the separateness that is our world. Already ready? Or I'm not leaving this guy. He's a part of my life. I'm going to make peace with it, and I'm going to go on about my life. Most people get stuck in between. Or I don't want to make a declarative or what statement, but I just want to complain about it and be frustrated about it all the time. So either make peace with it. You make a great salary. We're moving on. You got a third kid. Maybe he's fun and whatever. Or I'm going to draw a line in the sand and say, as for me and my house, I just. I want more than this. I deserve more than this. I want to build something together.

I don't want to be a single mom anymore.

That's.

That's right.

You got to grow up. I need a man in my house, not a third kid. And more importantly, here's what that looks like. Here's the path for that.

So tactical steps. If you're in that situation, I'm going to say if you want to go forward, it's going to look like this. You're going to get a career development plan and execute on it. We're going to get married. And in order to work our way through all that, we're going to sit down and see a counselor.

Counselor, absolutely.

And. And if you don't want to do those three things, you are electing for us not to be together anymore. Because I don't want to be a single mom and pretend like I'm not anymore.

Since behavior is a language, you're telling me very clearly I don't want to be a part of your life.

Yeah, yeah. And here, here's the problem. Okay. The data now tells us, and John and I have talked about this, we talked about it on our tour quite a bit. It came up a lot. The. There's tons of actual research, multiple different research projects that are airtight research, looking at actual Labor Department data, Census Bureau data that says a single man, 35 years old has one seventh of the net worth of a married man that's 35 years old. A single woman that's 35 years old has one tenth of the net worth of a married woman that is 35 years old. Married men live 7 to 10 years longer and have a 20% higher probability of surviving cancer than single men. Wow. So your net worth and your incomes, all the data tells us your net worth, your incomes, your health, your relational satisfaction is in multiples of 10, greater for married couples than couples that shack up. And yet more than half the couples listening to this right now are shacked up instead of married. And you think you haven't done any damage, but you have. You've lost what we call what the data calls a marriage advantage advantage versus the shack up advantage.

There is no data, zero data that says you outperform physically, relationally and financially by shacking up the marriage, the married couple. 0. Times do you outperform? 0. And yet everybody does it.

But I think what's important is the financial metrics, the health metrics. Those are lights on the dashboard of a person who has a life where they exhale, where they can anchor in and go, work hard, right? You can work harder when you know you've got a, you've got a ride or die next to you when you're in the hospital, you've got A reason to get up and get out. Like when you're, you've got all like those things. I would never tell somebody to go get married so you have more money. I would say, hey, go build a, an amazing life with somebody. It's going to be hard, it's going to be challenged. Go do that. And the fruit on that tree is going to be more than you can imagine. And.

I would tell you that the dashboard is right. I think you're exactly right. The financial problems are never the problem. They're the symptom. So financial limitations are never the problem. They're the symptom. Financial success is never the real success. Yeah, it's the symptom. And so what we're telling you is, is that it turns out that the best way. And like for instance, when we interviewed the 10,167 millionaires, we asked them, you know, what percentage of you did you or what's your relationship with your spouse have to do with your wealth? 89% said, a willing, able and enthusiastic partner is what my spouse was. When you interview the general public that's broke, you ask what percentage is your spouse? You know, what percentage of you is your spouse A willing, able and enthusiastic partner? Gardner, 40%, not 89. So there's a causal effect here, cause and effect here. You know, it's a causal statistical analysis.

That's what caused teammate.

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Investing might seem complicated or confusing, but it doesn't have to be. The Ramsey Investing and Retirement hub is packed with interactive tools and resources. Help you get informed, learn, not be intimidated. Will help. You can check it out. Ramseysolutions.com retire or click the link in the description. Katrina is in Canada. Hi, Katrina, how are you?

I'm great, thanks. How are you doing?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

So I currently live on a three acre parcel near a small town. I'm single, no kids, never married, and I work in law enforcement right now and I make a pretty decent wage, but I have basically I work like half a month and I'm looking to increase my wealth and I want to do something that I really love. Like my job right now is. It's fun. There's things about it that I really like. But I'm looking at possibly like starting a mini cow calf operation. And my question is, am I. I just want to see like, if I. How I'm doing financially and would you advise if this is a wise decision?

A miniature cow calf operation?

Yeah.

You mean the operation is miniature or.

The cows are just the operation? Because my land is just three acres. So I was thinking if I get three cows and rent my friend's bull once a year.

Yeah.

The expenses would be approximately 3,500 to 4,000 a year.

Yeah.

And then they would bring in around 7 to 8,000 a year.

And your, your 3 acres is fertile enough to feed three cows?

I'd say about 75% is grazing land.

And it's fertile enough to serve because there's parts of the United states that takes 20 acres to do that. There's parts of the United States. One acre will do that. So I don't know what you've got. Will the 3 acres feed the cows?

It'll feed them for the summer and then the winter would be.

You're buying. You're buying feed in the winter?

Yes. Yeah.

You are in Canada. Okay, that makes sense. All right. And the feed costs. What? For the winter.

The feed. I just did the. The feed and medical expenses will be for three cows around 3, 500.

Oh, that's the 3500. Okay. Plus the purchase of the cow cows.

That does not include the purchase of.

The cow Plus, So are you out of debt?

So, right. No, I'm not out of debt, no.

Okay, so. So you don't have 3,500 plus the purchase of the cows?

No.

Okay.

The plan is to hopefully do it in the next year or two.

Oh, after you're out of debt?

Oh, yes. Yeah.

Oh, okay. All right. Well then I'm not an agribusiness expert, but business is pretty simple. You want to bring in more than you have go out, and the difference is called profit.

Right, Right.

And so what's the cows cost?

They range from 2 to 2,500 per head.

Okay. So you've got $10,000 invested. And, and if you, if you produce at least three calves a year out of that, then, then you're going to make 7,500 on your ten thousand dollar investment.

Yes.

Okay. Give or take. Right. Plus or minus. Plus a lot of trouble. And are you, you know, are you making a dollar an hour when this is done? Because you're gonna be out there, you're gonna be one out there with your sleeves rolled up.

Mm.

In the cold growing. Hey.

Oh, that's fine.

Yeah.

I don't mind hard work, but like right now, because I do if it's.

A dollar hour, I really mind it. If it's a dollar an hour, it pisses me off. So I want to make $100 an hour. Right?

Yeah.

Especially if it's cold. Hello. So, you know, that's the way you run the numbers out on the business. As you say, you know, your time is not worthless because you could use your time and go do something else and make money. So it's called opportunity cost on your time. So you need to make better than a wage for running a business and taking all this risk because these stinking cows might die. Okay. And this is. There's risk involved in all this. You run the business. And so you've got to make really, really good money, like 100 bucks an hour for the time you put into it. Otherwise it's. Otherwise it's an ugly hobby. With. It requires a lot of work. Because you like cows. That's not, that's not a business, though. If you want to do that, that's fine, but just call it an ugly hobby because I like cows and that's what I want to do. But that, but don't. But if it's a business and you're taking the risk of the loss of the animals and all those kinds of things, and so, you know, you say, all right, I'm going to put 10,000 bucks into this.

I'm going to get 7,500 out a year, and I'm going to put X number of hours into this, and X number of hours equals 7,500. So if I put 75 hours into it, I made 100 bucks an hour. And I think you're going to have more than 75 hours in this. If you had 7,500 hours in it, you made a dollar an hour.

Yeah, most of the time they're just out there eating anyway.

Yeah. But, I mean, you got to make sure the medical procedures are taken care of, that the bull doesn't bust down the fence and hair up the neighbor's yard and, you know, all this stuff. There's some, you know, you. There's a lot going on here, kiddo. And I want you to run out the number of hours that you can. If I put 10 hours a week in this, 52 weeks, that's 5200 hours. I made not even a dollar an hour. That's not cool. So we got to figure out something else to do with this. That. That scratches your Farmer Jane itch. But that is actually profitable enough to screw with, because I think you're gonna have more than 10 hours a week in this.

And I want to. Dave's point. Sit down with somebody who runs cows that will talk to you about. About birthing challenges and vet bills and all that other stuff that nobody thinks about because it does. It's easy to drive by a pasture and just say, man, I could put some cows on my place and I could just sell those cows. But, man, my buddies that run actually run cattle in Texas and Oklahoma.

It's a.

It's a. It's a whole lot more stuff.

Yeah.

And be honest about when you're doing your law enforcement work half the year.

Year.

Who's going to take care of the cows then, too?

Well, it sounds like she's working half time, not half year.

Oh, I thought it was half a.

Year, half a week.

Okay.

If I understood right, okay, it's more like a 72 on, 72 off thing or something. But. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it's. That's how you analyze it. Then you've got to decide and say, is it worth it? The problem is when I start crunching the numbers on this, it takes all the romance out of it. It takes all the, oh, we get to play with cows. No, that's no longer fun. I don't know.

That's a whole thing. Now, Dave, just to go sit in a field and hug A cow. And it's like a whole therapy thing people are trying to do.

Okay. If we can get some.

James is super into it.

We need to get 7,500 an hour for that.

Exactly. There you go.

Let's get those. Get somehow. Let's get this stinking thing profitable. That's all I want. I mean, cow hugging, cow birthing. You can go wherever you want to go with it. I don't care what the product line is. But it needs to be profitable. On. We're done for the trouble that I put into it. That's. Or maybe we can do both. Have a, you know, birth the cow and then hug the cow. I don't know. It's.

Hence James.

It's. Whoa, James, get thrown on the bus.

He's not into cows.

Golly. That's James. We can do nothing with him except turn off his microphone. That's all we can do with it.

He can turn off ours. That's the problem.

That's what I meant. Yours? Yeah.

Oh, mine.

No.

It's a whole thing, man. I know. Equine therapy is one of the most amazing things in the world with a proven track record. And now people will pay money to go sit in a feature field and hug a cow. And they're calling him. They're not for the therapist. I don't know therapists doing it. But it's a. It's an experience kind of like yoga or goat.

Yo.

It's just like a weird. Like, it's. It's people with a lot of live laugh love signs in their house, I think, that have some extra resources and.

They'Re just like, the 70s were good to their parents.

I think it's probably real. Real good to their parents. And they're like, you know what would make me feel better? I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go and I'll post about it or something.

I don't know.

I like Katrina's idea better.

I love.

But. But I would like to. I'm more akin to actually, you know, doing a business here.

And you love burgers and ribeyes.

Yeah, well. But I mean, you know, let's just make some cows and calves and. Yeah. I just. I'm afraid that when all the smoke clears on this, that the investment is not the. The juice isn't gonna be worth the squeeze. And that's what you got to be careful of. And you do have to. To factor in that in business, there are three rules. It's going to take twice as long as you think it's Going to cost twice as much as you think. And you're not the exception. Those are the three rules. Sam,

Caitlyn's in Missouri. Hi, Caitlin, how are you?

Hi, Dave and John. I'm calling to find out if my husband and I can financially afford for me to stay home with my baby.

Can you live on his income?

I think so. My husband's take home is about 6,000. My take home is about 4,000. We have no debt, no mortgage. Our house is worth 500,000. We have about $250,000 in four mutual.

Funds that you recommend.

How much is in. How much is your house payment?

No mortgage.

Oh, wow.

This is worth 500,000.

Well, you ought to be able live on six grand, can't you?

Yeah, I think our overage would be about 2,000. My husband's currently only putting 5,000 toward retirement, so he needs to up that to 15%. But I think it's hard. I like my job, but I want to stay home with my baby. But it's a little hard. It's a little scary to quit.

Well, are you working now? You're working now?

Yes.

You're back to work after the last baby?

This is my first baby and I'm back to work after the 12 weeks of leave.

Okay. And yeah, that's hard. That's a real hard thing. Okay.

Yeah.

So, well, why don't you live on your husband's income and bank your income for a couple months?

Okay.

Just to prove to yourselves you can do it.

Mm. So that's a good idea.

I think you can. The numbers you gave me sound right.

Yeah, it is gonna.

It's gonna require a life change though. And the life changes, we're not going to be able to be as willy nilly as we were because you have no payments, you got no mortgage, bringing home 10,000 bucks a month, you can kind of do whatever you want.

Yeah.

And by reducing your income 40%, you're gonna have to make some changes. Like we're gonna have to eat up home and we can't take that vacation. And that's just going to be the trade off to being a stay at home mom.

I'm 29, he's 27. Who knows how many years I'd be off? Maybe three to five and then go back. It's just scary, I think, to quit your job and take the leap of faith.

And you have to be ready for a couple of things. Thing number one, you are now part of the woman industrial guilt complex or the mother industrial guilt complex complex. People will be after you for staying at home. People will be after you for not going back to work. People are going to want to do stuff and you're going to have to say no. Your husband's going to want a new thing and he's gonna have to say no. Because there's just going to be this always this sense that I'm not enough or I'm doing the wrong thing, knowing that on the front end, you can.

You can prepare for it might not even be a sense. It might be a direct message from some loser on the outside. Right. And so you just gotta go, eh, your opinion doesn't count. You don't really get a vote. We're living on six grand and I'm here with the baby and I'm really, really happy with that idea. I also understand I'm no longer a professional woman, and that does bother me a little bit. But I made a choice between that, put that on the scale. I put a baby on the other side of the scale. Baby won.

But that doesn't make you, you suddenly not want to have a career or.

Not be intellectually stimulated by hitting and setting goals. Right?

Yeah.

And so putting some things in place, like I'm going to have two or three women that I get together with every week and we're going to have a book study, we're going to talk about politics or deep stuff or projects, or I'm going to backfill some of those intellectual needs, the stimulation needs, the adult conversation needs. I'm going to make sure that's still a part of my life because it's meaningful to me and it makes me who I am.

Yeah. I think I get scared that I won't be able to find a job when I try to back interback will.

Oh, yeah. No troubles at all.

Okay.

What's your, what's your field?

I work in marketing.

Okay.

And I have an mba.

Okay.

But I've only been.

The stuff you learned in the MBA was generic and strategic. It was not tactical marketing skills you use today.

True.

Your tactical marketing skills were acquired by being in the marketplace and moving around. You will lose those because the way we do marketing today is vastly different than it was 18 months ago and way different than it was 10 years ago. And so if you stay out of the market five years, you know, what is the, what does AI do to the marketing process? It's going to change it and you're going to be behind on that. But does that mean you can't get a job? No. You still have the basic marketing skill set. And then you'll have to just learn some of the tactical things to stay up to date. The other thing you could do is after the baby is a year old or so you could start doing some freelance stuff on the side just to keep your skills sharp, just for fun, not because you have to, but because it keeps your toe in the water and we know what the temperature is. That might be fun because there's a lot of small businesses could use somebody with an MBA with marketing skills to help them move some of their marketing along.

And they don't have the, they don't have the financial bandwidth to put somebody on full time like that.

That's what I would do.

That's a good idea.

Which is easy for me to say on this side having never had to make that, that trade, right? But finding one or two people who have a small business and you can help or you can take a little bit of money and, but you keep, you're doing it less for the money but more for the skills.

But here's the thing, you guys make good money, you and your husband, and he makes good money and you've already done a great job. You got a paid for house, you got money saved, you're going to be in great financial condition. And so what happened with Sharon Ramsey was she never went back. She transferred from full time mom to full time grandmom to full time Bible study leader and book club leader and generally all these things, I mean she's got her thing and none of it is earning an income quote unquote, other than allowing me to, which earns her a great addition income. But you know all that stuff. So you know that it doesn't have to be that you do this in order to be a real person. So just whatever you want to do, that's the point. And whatever, keep whatever, whatever floats your boat, right? Whatever, whatever makes you happy and takes you there. So I would do all of those things. But yeah, I think coming home after, if you see you'll worry about the financial thing less if you just take too much and say we're going to bank my check and live on your practice.

Make our every dollar budget with your check, your take home pay. And by the way, he does have to get that back up to 15. You got to be putting 15% of your income away at least. And you don't have a payment in the world. There's no reason you can't do that except that you want to spend it on other stuff so that you really do need to be doing that. But 15% of 6,000 is not that bad. It's not just 900 bucks a month. It's very doable, very doable. And that's going to take you to a lot of wonderful places that you're going to want to go to.

And for everybody listening, I think this is an important moment. This couple has put in the work up until now. And now they can honestly sit across the table and do whatever they want. And it's not a matter of, I have this deep sense that I want to stay at home, but I can't because I've got all this past, all this old things that I've already bought but haven't yet paid for dragging behind me. And so they put the work in and here they are. And now they can do whatever they can want. It doesn't mean it's going to come without a sacrifice, without frustrations, but they could do whatever they want because they put the time in. So. And I love that they're in this, they have this opportunity.

Yeah, I, I do think that I'm potent. I don't think, I'm sure that ladies in our society today get a lot of messages from a lot of people that don't have a right to put a vote in on whether they should work or not. Not. And so if you're working and well, you're a bad mom, if you're a full time mom, stay at home mom. Well, you're, you know, you've abandoned your, you've not become your best version of you. You didn't go be a professional woman and do all this stuff. And they get these guilt messages from both sides. And like you said, it's the industrial female guilt machine. Right.

And what I hear a lot on my show is people make the sacrifice, Women make the sacrifice. They stay at home and suddenly they find themselves in a place that they've never experienced, which is a deep loneliness as they've got no other adults in their life. And they either turn to scrolling as a way to connect with the outside world. And that's where these messages get dumped in there.

Oh, God.

Or their spouse or husband comes home and it becomes like the trash can. They, they. He dumps all the best stuff that happened in his day, she dumps all the best stuff. And that's a way to split your marriage. And so knowing, hey, I'm gonna be all by myself and so I'm gonna not just go home and in a box for the next three to five years, but I'm going to create community intentionally that I might have got just at the water cooler at the office. I'm going to be intentional about it. And man, then there's going to have a whole bunch of people speaking into your life that are real people that actually care about you.

Yeah. And here's the trick. Decide what you're going to do and you and your husband, you're the ones really get a vote. What everybody else thinks doesn't really matter. You don't get a vote and you're going to have to turn it off because the, the crap is out there and people don't mind shoveling it today.

Hey, what's up? Dr. John Deloney here. The new dates have dropped for the money and marriage getaway over Valentine's day weekend in 2027 6. This is your chance to hit pause on everything in your life and reconnect with your spouse over a long weekend in Nashville, Tennessee. Me and my friend Rachel Cruz will be digging into topics like sex, money, communication and more. This weekend is happening on February 12th through the 14th and early bird prices start at 749 per couple but the prices will be going up soon. Get your tickets today@ramseysolutions.com events.

Welcome back to the Ramsey show in the Fair Winds credit union studio. Dr. John Deloney, number one person, number one best selling author.

I'm the number one personality.

You're the number one person that. That's it.

I'll take it.

Yeah, you're all of that. And number one show on the Ramsey networks. Not really but a big show on the Ramsey network sees number one everywhere in his mind. So check it all out. He's here to help me this hour since my mouth is apparently not working. Open phones at Triple 882-55-5225. Thomas is in South Dakota. Help us Thomas, what's up?

Hey Dave. Hey John. What's going on? I'm calling today because I'm 18 years. I could duty military.

Thank you.

Unfortunately. Thank you. Unfortunately, a couple years ago life happened and I ended up getting divorced. With that. Before we got divorced, my ex wife and I, we were completely debt free and I was able to contribute 60% of my income towards investments. Holy 40 was going to my TSP and another 20% was going to my kids college funds.

Wow.

But now that I'm divorced, I've been divorced now for two years. I have found myself accumulating a little bit of debt. I'm back at $57,000 worth of debt.

What in the world? What did you buy in two years.

So I bought a vehicle.

What kind of truck is it?

It's a Ford Ra.

Well, I think we found the problem, Thomas.

It's definitely part of it.

No, it's the whole.

It's all of it.

Taylor Swift wrote a song about your divorce. Raptor Truck. We know what it is.

It's called I'm the problem.

So my. I'm calling because I can pay this debt off pretty quickly.

What do you make?

$78,000 a year?

You make 78 a year and you owe what on the Raptor?

I owe 57. Yeah, well, I owe 37 on the raptor and 18,000 in credit card debt that I used to purchase furniture and stuff for the house. I got divorced.

Okay. All right.

I still contribute the 60% of my income towards my TSP.

You can't afford to do that. Broke.

So I was thinking. So my philosophy here and what I was looking for is some guidance. I was thinking about cutting off my tsp. However, in the divorce, my ex wife decided to go ahead. Hey, your whole military pension is yours. I just want half the tsp. I've still been contributing because in my head I was like, I'd rather make a little bit more money on the back end versus stop contributing altogether and out of spite, just not contribute. Because I don't want her to get.

When does she get half? Now.

67.

What?

No, I meant that that's not possible. Is. This divorce isn't final. Is.

Is. Yes, sir. So when we went to court, there was. I had several different options that I could do.

And you agreed to give her half of your tsp at age 67?

Yes.

Not hat. Not what half of it becomes by then, but whatever's in there at ha. That's not right. Something's wrong.

That's based off of what the lawyers were saying and stuff. They said that was the better of the deal.

Apparently these lawyers didn't take math class. That's a horrible deal. All right, so you need to get clarification because I don't think you understand what really happened. Or you got the worst deal Deal. In the history of divorces.

I've never heard of this deal. This is what you got.

It is normal for you to transfer half of your TSP to her. Now that is a normal process in a divorce. And she can roll that into an IRA and have no taxes. It is very strange for her to get anything at age 67. Like, I've never heard of this in 35 years of doing what I do. That's Strange.

What they wanted to do was she would get half of my military pension on top of half of the TSP.

Yeah, that would be normal. But half the TSP today, not at 67.

Well, now, with the deal that they had worked out was she doesn't get any of the military pension. She only gets the PSP.

Okay. Now, or it's 67.

67. When it matures.

Okay, then it should be half. What? How? Like your half of your ts. How much is in your tsp today?

166.

Okay, so half would be 80. 84,000. 83,000. Okay, right.

Yeah.

Today. So whatever 83,000 grows to at age 67, she should get. But she shouldn't get half of everything you put in between now and then, because otherwise you would put in nothing between now and then.

Right. So that was going to be. My next question is if I just stop contributing altogether.

You have to contribute. Listen, if you did the worst deal in divorce history and she gets half of your TSP regardless of whether you put money in or not, that's the worst deal I've ever heard of in my life. I've never even heard of. You get half at 67. That's just very weird, dude. Like. Like these lawyers are completely freaking incompetent. Weird. Okay, but if you did do that, you need to go back and clarify. Is it what half of it today becomes what 83,000 becomes at 67, or is it just half of whatever's in there? Because if it's half of whatever's in there, you don't put another dime in it. You're done with that. You got to go put money in a Roth ira and you got to put money in other stuff, but the TSP is off limits to you because she's going to take half of everything you put in there for the next. You know, how many. I mean, how old are you?

I'm 36.

Yeah. Good God. For 30 years you're going to contribute to her? No, thank you. You did the worst deal ever. So, no, we're not doing that. That's dumb. That's dumber than a rock, man. I'm telling you that. I'm so pissed at your lawyer right now, I can't see. I want to smack him. This is horrible. But you did the deal. I guess it's final. So you need to go back and get clarity. If she gets what half, what 83,000 becomes, or if she gets half of whatever's in there, it's going to be whatever's in there.

Otherwise they would have just transferred the 83 out.

They should have just transferred the 83 out. That's what they should have done. That would be normal instead of this dumb but thing.

So yeah, John is correct. It is whatever's in there later. Because I tried to fight and get the half now, but then there were.

Like, okay, then, then here's what, here's what it is. She gets hat what that half becomes because it's not going to become anything else. Because you're not going to anything else. Do it. You're stupid if you do. Okay, but you're the one that signed this divorce decree also, so. Oh my God. This is a horrible man. It's just horrible.

30 year claim on future earnings. Earnings for you. Geez, man, you'll have kids.

We have two of them.

I've heard, I've heard a few.

This is. I want to get away from this woman really bad is what this is.

I've heard. I've heard in a rightfully so a future claim on future earnings. If you've got kids through the age of 18, right? So if you were making 25 grand and suddenly you're making 150 grand, that's child support. That's not this.

That's child support. That's normal.

That's what I'm saying. I've heard of that.

That's normal. But half the 401k is normal. Half the tsp is normal. But you transfer it now and it rolls out into an IRA and then she does whatever she does with it. Okay, your answer is you have a truck you can't afford that you bought while you're grieving your broken heart. And you wrote your heart was broken by your wife and your idiot attorney. So you have two reasons for a broken heart. So you've got to sell this truck, honey. And I love raptors. I drove one over here today. I like them. But this truck is brain damage, so it's killing you. You cannot afford to drive this truck. It's more truck than you can afford with the money you make. Sell your truck, get your budget back balanced and move into the future. And please don't put anything else in this TSP Foreign.

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If you died today, how would your family keep the lights on? Pay the mortgage, Afford the the groceries. If anyone in your life depends on your income, you need life insurance. That's called being an adult. But how do you choose from all the options out there? Well, it's actually simple. Life insurance has one job. It's to replace your income if you die. Term life insurance is the most efficient, inexpensive way to do that. The others include investments and crap that rip you off like whole life and permanent life. We don't do those end up doing a really bad job at everything. Instead, just do term life. 10 to 12 times your annual income, 15 to 20 year level term, which means the premium stays the same. If you want to learn more about this, you can get the free Term Life insurance guide. Go to ramseysolutions.com termlifeguide or click the link in the show notes. Wendy is in Washington. Hi Wendy, how are you?

Hi. Good. Thanks for having me on.

Sure, I'll come. Can we help?

So there's no easy way to say this, so I'm just going to jump right into it.

Cannonball. Let's do it.

Okay. So my sister stole everything from my parents in their senior years and my mother died of neglect under her care. And my dad ended up in the hospital days later during which she wiped out their bank accounts, maxed out their credit cards and she contributed on some level if not all of their reverse mortgage being maxed out to the tune of $450,000. My father has later stages of dementia. Now I know from going through what I've been with him the last two years that my mom also, I'm positive, had dementia at the time. And so my sister had been living with them, slowly took over. She moved in right before COVID slowly took over their home, slowly took over their finances and just abused them because they weren't mentally and physically able to do anything about it.

What a lovely girl.

That's heartbreaking.

Really hard. Really hard. So my dad is safe. He's in a secured memory care facility now and he's being cared for. It took me seven months of fighting on so many levels I can't even name them. It would take 20 pages of writing. But finally got his Social Security safe, which is all he has left. The home that they owned for almost 40 years was auctioned off and we lost it. And I did not expect to get any funds from it because of the condition she left in. It basically looked like a meth house that squatters got into. But it did. It auctioned off for an amount that left funds to the tune of about $130,000 left. And as soon as those funds came into my control, I was forced to go through conservatorship and guardianship to help my dad because their will, unfortunately, their will wasn't notarized. And every banking institution and everyone we dealt with said that it was invalid. And so it took me a lot of hard work to try to prove that there were any funds stolen when I didn't have access or. And I wasn't a POA to request copies of financial statements and those things.

So it took me seven months to get his money safe, his account safe, and. And he ended up homeless and living with my husband and I, and we cared for him for seven months until his health got to a point where he needed to be in a secured memory care facility.

I got you. Okay, so where are we today?

So where are. Where we are, is the house actually auctioned off? We have the 130,000. He immediately lost Medicaid because he had that money. So we're on private pay, and I don't expect those funds to last through mid next year.

Okay. And then it'll be back on Medicaid.

Then it'll be back on Medicaid.

Correct.

And so my. Here's my question. If. If my dad passes, he's, you know, I mean, the reality of it is it could be at any time if my dad passes the will states the intent of the will. And what my parents wanted was to the funds to be divided between their living children, which would be my brother and my sister and I. My soul cannot do that based on everything she's done. And I'm.

I guess you mean the 130,000 if he died today. Yes, because that's the only thing that's left. Right. There's nothing else.

That's all that's left. And honestly, there are a few bills, like between attorneys fees and things. I just don't see anything being left over. But I also didn't expect the house to sell.

Yeah. When you. When you went through all this stuff for the last seven months, did you have expenditures out of your. Your pocket?

Oh, yeah, My husband and I reimburse your. Yeah, yeah, I did a little. I did a little bit.

No, reimburse yourself all of it.

Okay.

Out of the 130.

Okay.

That moved. That moves it out of his name.

Into your name as a conservator.

I had a very strict budget that I had to stick to so I could bring it up next time I go to court.

Go to court and say I need all my legal fees redeemed, reimbursed for protecting him.

Yeah, those are covered.

Yeah. And I need to pay all the legal bills I need to pay out of this. I want to deplete this money down to where there's nothing there. And then you don't have a moral conundrum.

Yeah. I also curious if you know if the intent of the will still stands.

Okay, well.

Is not valid. Everybody told you that.

Okay.

The will doesn't. It's not even a will because it's not notarized in your state. Requires it to be notarized. Notarized. You know, he's dying. He's dying without a will. For me, he's dying without a will. Okay, so he's not competent to execute a will. I'm sorry. He's not competent to execute a will under your state's terms right now.

Correct.

And he doesn't have a will under your state's terms right now. Am I understanding that right? That's what everybody told you, right?

Correct.

That's why the conservatorship was put in place, because the will was deemed invalid. Okay, so the will doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. Yeah, but guess what? The state is going to say no. Most states say the three air. The three children are the three heirs. And they'd be split three ways if there's no will, that would be normal. So you're back to the same problem. But there's going to be no money left if I'm you, because I will have spent this down like the next time I'm in front of the judge.

Okay.

I'm gonna go buy him an $80,000 bed and put in there. Yeah, I'm serious. There's not gonna be any money left.

Yeah, no, I don't expect there to be. I think my biggest fear, and it's not like a thing of trying to win or trying to stick it to someone.

Oh, wait a minute. I got a better idea. Go before the conservatorship. And what I want to do is prepay the next year of his campaign care, and I want to reimburse you for all of your legal expenses. And I think the money's gone.

Yeah, Will be okay. Good.

All right.

And Wendy, you were about to go There. I'll go there for you.

You don't. There's no revenge.

Let your sister go.

Oh, I have. I totally. I 100% have. I think I had a really hard time with the fact that there. She's never been held accountable for. For anything.

I've got a hard time with it. I'm kind of.

You haven't let it go, though, because you're future what ifs and you're trying to solve them and be heartbroken and angry in the present.

That's true. It's true.

You got me.

Just stop. You have enough challenges of today for today.

Yeah.

You and your husband have proven to each other that we can come together when life throws us chaos. You have done an amazing job. You have a great marriage. I'm so proud of you.

And guess what? Parasites don't eat as well as carnivores. They just don't. So at the end of the day, she's still a miserable hack. She didn't get what she was after. She was looking for something. She couldn't get there.

No.

And so it's like, you know, just being a thief is never. It's never a rewarding profession.

Especially from your aging parents.

She's got to live without the rest of her life. Talk about a burden. Yeah.

Let her carry that. Not you.

She disappeared for the last two and a half years.

But during the garden ship.

Yeah. And during the conservatorship process. She had to be served and she found out that there was equity in the home and immediately showed up.

You're saying that like you're surprised.

You're doing all this again.

You're seeing that like you're surprised.

Of course she did.

She stole from your parents. Of course she's going to show up.

She wanted to finish the theft. Yeah. Oops. I left a brooch on the diet on the dresser.

Yeah.

Don't create stories in the future and let them keep you up at night in the present.

Yeah.

It's just you've been running this over in your head. You burned a whole lot more calories on this than she has.

Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You've been through this. And what she did was horrible.

You're an amazing daughter.

She's a horrible human being. And you did all the right stuff. So come out with the rewards. Which is, you know, I did the right thing. I put my head on my pillow, but yeah, go prepay the nursing home with. With the conservators permission and put the rest in Your pocket to recoup all of your time, your expenses, your legal fees. I'll guarantee you there's $80,000 there for sure. We've all done dumb things with money. I've done them with zeros on the end. One of the biggest mistakes I see people make with money is not having a plan for it. You got to have a plan. You got to be intentional. And you need to get a budget. You have to tell your money where to go so you're not wondering where it went. Our budgeting app, Every Dollar, helps you do just that. It's the easiest and fastest way to make a monthly plan. For every dollar you've got coming in and going out, now's the best time to get started before the ridiculous holiday spending season gets here and sucks you in because you didn't have a plan. Don't let that happen. You're done making that mistake.

Go download Every Day Dollar for free in the App Store or Google Play. Today, Mike and Lori are on the debt free stage in the Ramsey Solutions lobby. What's up, guys?

Hi, Dave.

Good to see y' all again. Y' all were on the cruise with us. We were.

We were.

Wow. Yes. Well, welcome, welcome.

I'm glad you didn't wear your swimsuit on the death free stage.

You don't want to see that, John.

I've already seen it. I'm all right now.

Everything's better now.

Everything's better now.

How much debt have you two paid off?

$175,000.

Wow. How long did this take, Mike?

29 months, Dave.

Whoa. And your range of income during that.

Time range of income was 210,000 to 250,000.

What do y' all do for a living?

I am an accountant. I'm a actually client services representative for a mco, a workers comp. MCO company.

And I am a healthcare administrator and a nurse.

Ah, awesome. Very cool. What kind of debt was the 175?

It was mostly our home.

Our home. Oh, look at weird people telling you houses paid off. I love it. What's that house worth?

About 600,000.

Very cool. And how much in your retirement nest eggs?

Over a million. Dave.

Yeah.

Between us.

So your baby steps, Millionaires, Debt free house and everything. How old are you pups?

We're.

Today is Mike's 60th birthday.

All right, Very cool.

Kind of a milestone.

And I'm 57. All right. And you got a net worth of a million and a half to $2 million. Way to go, y'. All. Very proud of you. How's that feel? Amazing.

It feels amazing, Dave. It really does. Like you say on the show, and it just takes something off your shoulders when that happens. Just amazing.

Yeah, man. I'm so proud of you guys. That's so amazing. So how did you run into the whole Ramsey thing 29 months ago?

I'll just tell you. I'll start. Just started watching your. Lori got me really hooked on your YouTube videos, and we just started watching those. That was a big part of.

Part of it.

I'll just tell you this. She bought your total money makeover book about over 25 years ago. And I think you're right. It was kind of just on the coffee table for a long time.

Yeah, it's good for the. It's a good coaster. Yeah.

And then we're like, we started reading and we're like, oh, this is unbelievable. And just. I think the goals are so important. I know we'll talk about this, but just the system itself is just incredible and we're very thankful.

So you got. You went in all. You took it off the coffee table and went full in. When?

Well, we.

When we took the fpu.

So we kind of baby ramsayed it a little bit.

Yeah. When was that?

Probably during COVID because we couldn't travel anymore.

Okay. Five years you've been going, but the last 29 months was paying off the house, right? Okay, pretty much. All right. Wow. Good for you guys. Fun, fun, fun, man. All right. Now that you've been through all of that and you're standing here, I mean, do you remember being 20 something and thinking about being a millionaire someday?

Oh, no, I do.

I do remember that.

I remember it.

Yeah.

Oh. But I had no idea how much work it was going to be. Right, right. And I had no idea how good it was going to feel. I had this. This feeling like in my head it was like hitting the lottery. But it's quite the opposite. It's much deeper, rich, richer. It's not as the money's not as important. It's what you become while you're getting it together.

Yes, true.

And who you are as a couple and who you are as people. And the way you see things, it's completely different.

No doubt about it. Dave. Yeah.

What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt and being a millionaire? Almost two millionaire by the time you're 60.

I just think the main reason is just we almost acted as one. Dave, like, you talk about marriage. We always felt like we had a solid marriage over the years, but it just took it to a new level where we're just doing something that we each have a goal for and then we just did it together. Do you think, hon?

Yeah.

And I think, you know, having a vision and finding a plan and when you look at a plan, I mean, the Ramsey stepping baby steps is the.

Best plan to have.

And I have to say one of the things I really. I know Rachel gets a lot of hate mail for. This is one thing I really had a hard time doing was combining bank accounts. And we did not do that until closer to the end of our debt freedom. And it simplified our whole entire life. So I just, I think keep saying that to people because I think we.

Do need to hear it. So you were the one that was resistant.

Yeah.

Is that what you're saying? Okay, why?

You know, probably some rooted fear somewhere.

And well, Mike is a scary guy.

A smile, not happy. Yeah, that's right.

You mentioned something that we started saying more and more around here. There's solving for this fear somewhere and there's always going to be more fear over the horizon. But you went in and did this and you started solving for peace and just the idea of getting multiple bank account statements every month reconcile just looking at each other and just reconciling one gives you 30 minutes back a week or an hour back a week. And suddenly you start. Start to do things together. I just, I love it, man. What's a tangible. You're in your 60s. I like to say that almost. Sorry, that was. That was pretty harsh.

But she's not.

Yeah, she's not. Imagine there's a couple who's in their 30s, they've been married for three or four years. What would you tell them right now what the other side of this journey feels like?

Oh, I just think it's just. You just got to focus. I mean, the big thing is just believe leave. You know, a lot of people out there, I think we've. You talked about this on the show, they don't believe they can do it. And no matter what your debt is, you've seen it with Jade, with others, it can happen. And just focus. Get on the same page with your spouse and just go at it. And it's. It's so worth it, John. Like you said, it's just. It's not an easy thing. But it was. It's a lot easier than being in debt. Lori and I have gone on trips over the years prior to Covid and we budget a certain amount.

Amount.

We went to Italy, went to London, went to Hawaii and stuff. And Then we'd always use our credit cards over and above what we budgeted. And that's just. You can't do it. Just go over and then. It's so rewarding once you do get that control. I think it's about doing the right thing biblically and just doing the right thing as human beings.

It's so strange that discipline is satisfying.

Oh, my gosh, Dave.

It's a strange paradox.

And she's amazing. I just have to say this. She's. She's the reason we kept on getting them. The increase in income. That's Lori. I. I've had it. Same, same job. I love it, like, what I do. But she has just gone over and above to get new jobs. She also even did a side hustle. She got her nursing degree and she does a side hustle working at a. This village, actually, senior village in Columbus. So she was a big part of this. A huge part of it.

Yeah. Well, the bigger the shovel, the faster you get out of the hole. Big deal.

I don't know how I'd feel if a nurse walked in and was like, hey, this is my side hustle.

That didn't sound good.

No, that's so. That's incredible, guys. I'm so proud of you.

Thank you.

Proud of you.

Well.

And hey, it's hard. It's hard to change patterns in a marriage this far along. And for you to say, like, how.

Long have you been married?

23 years.

I'm scared to do something. Something as seemingly simple as join a bank account. We've been doing it this way for this long.

Yes.

This isn't working. I'm gonna try this. That takes real courage and bravery. I'm proud of you, man. That's hard. It's hard. It's hard to stop the dance that's been going on for 20 something years. And you did it. That's amazing.

Thank you. Yeah.

And you'll reap the benefits of it, of being able. So now you're worth a couple million dollars. You're 100 debt free, House and everything. You're. You're making a quarter million dollars a year. What's the first big financial fun thing you're gonna do?

Well, we're gonna take my mom to Spain next year.

Yeah?

Yeah.

Why Spain?

We've always wanted to go.

Oh, because you wanted to go. Okay. And she wants to go too. Of course she wants to go. I bet she does. Yeah.

It's a cruise too, Dave. So you guys got. You got us kind of hooked up.

All right. That's good.

John, I just have to say this. We actually did the mar marriage class with you and Rachel and it was phenomenal. I mean, I just want to thank you. Well, you guys are so entertaining to. You're funny.

They're like a couple comedians doing stand up marriage stand up routine. Yeah.

Well, I'm glad you. Okay.

Thank you.

That's good. All right, well, enjoy Spain. I'm very proud of you guys. Excellent. Live like no one else. Now you can live and give. Take mom with you to know like no one else. I like it. Reward it. That's good. So $175,000 paid off in 29 months. House and everything in the process confirm and become baby steps millionaires. Mike and Lori. Columbus, Ohio. Count it down. Let's hear a debt free scream.

Three, two, one.

We're debt free. Yeah. That's how you do it, ladies and gentlemen. Worth all of them the trouble. That's all I can say.

And I'll say this, the biggest lesson I'm taking away from Mike and Lori is it's never too late. It's never too late. It's never too late to change the way you interact with your marriage. It's never too late to change how you interact with your money. It's never too late. Proud of you guys. Well done.

Sam.

Our scripture of the day, Romans 8:37. Yet amid all these things, we are more than conquerors and gain a surpassing victory through him who loved us. AA Milne said, don't dodge difficulties. Meet them, greet them, beat them. All great men have been through the ringer, and women, for that matter. That's true. Yeah. True, true, true. Pam is in Houston, Texas. Hey, Pam, how are you?

I'm just fine. How are you doing?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Well, we have a house that's paid off and we have a lot of equity in it.

Good.

So my question is, you know, I just see an opportunity to put more money into the stock market, and I don't really see a lot of our money growing with all the equity that we have into it. So I want to get your thoughts on different scenarios. You know, sell the house, you know, because we're in, you know, we're 65 and 63.

What's wrong with the house?

Oh, nothing's wrong with it. It's just we're thinking of selling it, renting and taking that money and then, you know, stocking it away in the stock market.

What's the house worth?

About a million.

And what's the. How much do you have in your nest egg currently invested in 401ks and so forth.

We've got several seven figures.

So several. Several million.

Yeah.

Okay. Like more than three.

Yes.

Okay, so the answer to the question is this is a hypothetical because your life is okay.

Yes. Yeah, but I hate seeing money set idle.

It's not sitting idle. The house is going up in value.

Well, I mean that's. That is true.

Going up in value almost as fast as the market.

Well, I would hope to think so.

But no, I mean the actual data says that it's not a hope.

Well, that's good to hear.

I buy real estate as an investment because it goes up in value.

Yeah. And that, that is true. We've. We've bought several properties and some that we've made money and some we've just kind of broken even with. But you know, I just, I just felt, I just thought that, you know, by freeing up some of this money, we could just buy more stuff in the stock market that we would like and just see if that would. If that's a good investment. And if we rented anything, it would just be what I'm paying right now and property tax. My tax, you know, hoas and insurance. I wouldn't want to go over that particular number. So.

Sorry. If you rented. I got confused. I thought. You mean you're selling the house in this scenario? Yes.

If I wanted to sell the house and then.

And be a renter.

Yes. At our age, we have the flexibility to not worry about the house. House. Then I could take all that money and then just sock it away in the stock market and then make my kids lives easier if something should happen to us.

Your kids are okay.

Your kids will be fine.

The. And if they're not, it's their problem. The. Wow.

Can I want to ask this question. And you, Pam, you and Dave are in a different stage of life to me financially and age wise in other ways.

Was.

I keep asking myself if I got to be your age and I had that kind of resources. I'm living in a paid for million dollar house.

Yeah.

Why wouldn't you look to have fun?

Oh, we do have fun. We, we do have fun. I mean we just got back from a, you know, three week trip in Europe and.

So is the house a burden in some way?

It's a, it's a lot of work.

It sounds like you want to move and you're looking for permission to move.

Move.

I guess so. We, we do a lot of the yard work ourselves. It's just, you know, that's who we are. We're hard workers and so just move.

So stop it.

Yeah, pay somebody.

I don't do yard work. Not because I'm a snot. I can just afford not to do it.

You say you enjoy it, you say you enjoy it, but you want to sell it and start renting.

Well, it just frees up, you know, I don't have to worry about the house.

You're trying to make the fact that you don't like this house anymore into some kind of sophisticated financial move. And it's not just sell the house and move. That's the answer to the question. If you want to move, that's okay. If you want to move into a. You know, if you want to sell the house and buy a condominium for half of the price and all the work is done for you because you want to travel and see the world and you're tired of the upkeep and those kinds of things, that's a different motivation than Dave. I think it's wise to borrow or to sell my house and put all the money in the market and be a renter for the next 30. That is not wise.

Okay.

Okay. Mathematically that's not wise because what you have to have, your largest line item in your monthly living expenses is housing. And when you do not own the house, your largest line item called rent goes up every single year and you destabilize the situation. Now, not enough to cause you guys to be broke. You got enough money, you're going to be okay. But it's a destabilizer rather than a financial mathematical blessing to do what you're talking about. The data also tells us this, that the typical millionaire in the first $5 million of net worth has mainly investments in 401ks and a paid for million dollar house. That's the typical millionaire. None of the millionaires, precisely zero of the 10,000 that we interviewed said I became a millionaire by borrowing on my home and investing it into the stock market. That's not what you're doing. You're proposing, but you are proposing to go to, to go backward in the line of financial evolution and become a renter instead of an owner, I gotcha. And that destabilizes the situation. Now can you afford to do that? Yes, if that's what you want to do and you'll still be okay with the numbers you gave me.

But is that, but we're not going to blame it on the fact that it is a financially sophisticated move. It is. Is not.

Or if you wanted instead of paying rent. Take a quarter of that and hire.

A full time yardkeeper, butler, maid, cook, whatever you want.

Yeah. And.

And you turn this thing into Downton Abbey and ring a little bell.

And it's okay for y' all to do that, to say, hey, we're 60 now. We don't want to do yard work anymore. We're going to go for walks instead. We're going to have long coffees in the morning. Like, you're here, you made it, you're here, and that's okay. Or if you want to sell, like Dave said, if you want to sell a house and, and buy an 800 square foot house, do that. But don't say it's. Don't try to, like, come up with some, like, matrix algorithm. Just say this is what we want to do.

Because no, it's not. It's not wiser to be a renter and have the money invested in the stock market than it is to be an owner of your personal residence. Mathematically, it is not wiser. That's the answer to your overall question.

And can I say one thing?

Yep.

Your kids are going to get millions of dollars when you pass. They're fine. Now you're. There's a level of. I'm trying to think of the right word. Codependency. I need to make sure their future problems that they haven't even experienced yet are going to be okay so that I can be okay now.

Yeah. So I cut my own grass. So.

Right.

Don't put that on your kids.

I cut my own grass so that you have an inheritance.

They're going to get a million dollars each. They're going to. Gonna be fine. Y' all going about your life.

And if they're not, they're still gonna be. It ain't the million dollars fault.

They've learned how to work hard for.

Me, plus or minus a yard fee.

Right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Your kids are good. Y' all are good. Yeah.

So I cut an. I cut grass as my high school thing and 27 yards to cut when I was 12 years old, I cut so much grass by the time I was 19. God said I never had to do it again.

No, he didn't.

So he did. It was a personal appointment I had with him. He said he spoke audibly to me. Not. I'm kidding. But I've not picked up a weed eater or a lawnmower again. I mean, I mowed my grass. I mowed my grass when Sharon and I got married for like one year. And after that, I just. I'M done. I'm done with mowing grass and you know, but guess what? I can make more during the time that I would be, you know, and calling myself a hard work worker, riding a zero turn mower around and around in circles like all the old men on my street. And I could do that, but no, I can make more in that two hours than that guy costs. And, and he's got a good job and I got a good job and everybody's happy and I don't have poison ivy. You know, life's good, you know, it's just these. There's some things that you. What Arthur Brooks talked about this other day. You know, I had him on entree leadership and you had him on your show show too. The happiness professor from Harvard. One of the things that money does is it buys back your time.

To me, that's the single greatest thing money does is it buys you time.

Buys you time.

It's a time machine.

It does buy you some comfort, creature comfort things, but it buys your time back. And so if I don't have to do this thing over here, then I can do something else. And that's what money does for you. It will buy your time. And that's the beauty of. Of having been as incredible as Pam and her husband. We're picking at her, but I mean, God mighty. They got three or four million dollars. That's pretty incredible.

You can do what they want.

Well done. Very well done, y'.

All.

Pretty stinking cool. That puts this hour of the Ramsey show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the prince of peace, Christ Jesus Sam.