Transcript of Where Does USMNT Go From Here After Epic Collapse? | Morally Abhorrent

Welcome everybody to another live edition of Morally Abhorrent, our World Cup situation here on the Dan Lebatard Show, joined by Chris Whittingham and Tom Bogert, both at the Galazzo Network. Tom's been on the road with the U.S. men's national team the entire ride. Chris has been following along, football is his passion. Boys, yesterday was a really long day, a full 24 hours without the World Cup, and I am proud of the United States of America. We are a proper footballing nation because we have taken 24 hours to completely trash the, the former prodigy and the face of American soccer in Christian Pulisic. Now I'll begin with Tom. Christian Pulisic just put out a statement explaining to everybody that he was injured, and it worked on Dan Lebatard. He, he played the empath perfectly well, and I had to explain to him that injury happened well into that match. It was 3-1 by the time Christian Pulisic came out. That doesn't explain the poor performance there. It only explains a 5-minute stretch. What do you make of the last 24-hour news cycle around Christian, Tom?

It's been fascinating, and I think a lot of it has been opinions that people either had or were forming, and the Belgium result was the last straw. I mean, he's been criticized for not showing up in big games, which I think is a little bit unfair. He was criticized for being fragile, which it's not necessarily his fault, but I think it's It's just a fact. And this World Cup was a microcosm of his, of his professional career and of his US national team career. He was awesome against Paraguay. Those 45 minutes, he looked like one of the— like a world-class player. And after that, he picked up two injuries, missed a game, and then didn't do anything against Belgium in the most pivotal game up until that point at the World Cup for the US. So I understand. I think he deserves to get criticized. Some people are saying it's gone too far, and sure, maybe that's true, but I will say the wording on the injury release is interesting to me. I've never seen the word microfracture to describe an injury. And I think that they— a lot of people wanted it out that it was technically a fracture or a broken leg or whatever, but he's going to be back in like a month.

So not to downplay the injury, but I think now the other side of the discourse is, whoa, whoa, whoa, he had a broken leg when in reality that that's a little bit overstated too.

Yeah, that's overstated. But you did mention something that I think is true. It's certainly true about me and it caught me by surprise. There was a flood of Christian Pulisic takes that I had that I was surprising myself with because Witty and you and I did a Chelsea podcast and we interviewed Christian a lot of times and we've known for many years, for going maybe, maybe back a decade, he's on this kind of load management program. You have to be very careful. He has this sensitive ecosystem that we're trying to protect because we want him to be in the best possible situation to create and excel. And once he hit 27 years old, it was all about this World Cup and he failed to meet the expectations. I caught myself by surprise in the flood of emotions and resentments that I had against Christian.

Yeah, I mean, there are any number of reasons why, but I think the number one is he's the number one American soccer star that has been built up for 10 years. And if you're going to build up an American soccer star for 10 years, the only reason why you're going to do it is so that he can perform well at the home World Cup. And he just didn't. And obviously injuries play a role in that. That's been a part of his career. I think we probably have been looking past this for a long time where we've been trying to say it's the World Cup, it's the World Cup, it's the World Cup. But there is a mountain of evidence, down to the fact that Chelsea had him. He was a great player. We talked about it all the time in the, in the Champions League run when they won it. He was a great player, but he didn't start the final. I don't even think he came off the bench in the final. And Chelsea decided we don't really want him anymore. We have all these new players we're gonna go with them instead. He goes to Milan, has been on a good run, but Milan are not a Scudetto contender as long as he's been there.

He's a good player in a good team, not a great player in a great team. And I think we have sort of been in denial about this for a while and trying to hope that there was some other level that he would reach, but it just wasn't there. And I think it leads to this sort of amount of, well, what have we been building up for the last 10 years? Because it goes back all the way to when Grant Wall wrote a book about him when he was very young, wrote all the pieces saying that this is going to be the next guy. Then all the commercials, all the interviews. He is the one name that is associated with modern American soccer. I don't think after this World Cup too many people will be able to name a player beyond Christian Pulisic because he's just that guy who's in all the commercials. He's, he's in our face all the time. And there's this feeling that he didn't want this. And yet you're doing all of it. You're doing all of the commercials and the interviews and the Time magazine and the GQ thing and all this stuff where It's all about building up Brand Pulisic.

Well, if you're going to do all that stuff, then at the end you're going to face the music when you don't perform well. And that's exactly what happened.

Tom, I'm stunned considering that the president of the United States of America injected himself into this and it seems to have really negatively affected the United States in ways that I've talked to people at U.S. Soccer about, in ways that were clear with Belgian goal celebrations. They're not even talking about Donald Trump. Ruining the chances of the U.S. men's soccer team. Poach is totally skating as a manager who the book on him the entire time is he can't win the big one. How glad is everybody else for Christian Pulisic? Is he getting too much of the blame?

Yeah, that's what we're going to do, though. And we as a collective, not, not the three of us on this show, that as Witty said, he's the guy. He's the one who got the Captain America nickname, which after what happened against Belgium for him and after Aaron Judge at the World Baseball Classic and after Maybe we should only have the men and women's hockey team and the women's national soccer team get the Captain America nicknames for the time being. But that's a sidebar. This, this is going to happen. Like, he's the guy, he's the face of the team. Like, like with everything said, what struck me as odd with, with Pulisic, I guess in the public-facing version is, yeah, like he's done all the endorsements and the brand deals and first of all, every right to go get your money, man. Like, that's awesome. And that shows how this, this game has, has continued to accelerate in this country and his star is continuing to be built. But he didn't ever seem like he wanted to do all of that. Like he wanted the brand deal without the contracts. Like it was a Kawhi Leonard situation in which he wasn't allowed to just skip out on interviews and stuff.

He's never been a great interviewer and that's fine.

Who cares?

Like what matters most is on the field. But I think that was all building underneath the surface leading into this poor performance and The expectation and the hope was not just like this World Cup, it was that game, that this was the one to beat Belgium. Because right now they can't beat the allegations of, well, you're a good team, but you can't beat anybody who's really good. And by the way, Belgium didn't look really good in literally any other game except for against the US. Yes, they beat Iraq, I think 6-0, but like, I'm throwing that one out. They drew their first two games. They barely got through against Senegal. So much so that the coach benched Jeremy Doku and benched Kevin De Bruyne. I was told media members covering the Belgian team had booked a trip to the airport the next day during the Senegal game. They were like, this is over. There's no way they come back. So Belgium, it's not Spain, it's not France, it's not Argentina. Right. And this was the moment. And for it to end like this and at the same stage that it did in 2022 and 2014 and 2010 with allegedly the golden generation, the best players, allegedly the best coach that they've ever had.

At a home World Cup. These players are in their primes. They deserve to have this criticism for it to be a disappointment, though there were good moments at the World Cup. They deserve it to be criticized.

And Tom, can I, can I just quibble with one thing you said just in terms of it's not a big deal that he doesn't want it and he's bad in interviews? I'm sort of starting to not subscribe to that theory. Not that we're important, but you kind of want someone who wants to be a star, right? Because that sort of implies leadership. That implies I'm ready to take on the mantle. Who's all of a sudden become the biggest star of this World Cup? On all my social media feeds, it's Erling Haaland. You know what Erling Haaland is doing every 5 days? Putting out a vlog on his YouTube channel. He wants this. He wants to be, give me your Instagram followers, give me the banter, and what I'll do in response is I'll kick your ass on the field and score 2 goals to knock Brazil out of this thing. I am sort of tired of this idea of, ah, you know, it's okay if you don't want the limelight, you don't wanna be a star. No, this is soccer in America, man. We're trying to make this big. I want someone who wants, What frankly Weston McKennie wants, I just don't think he's quite good enough in order to back it up.

Like, bring me your fame, bring me the pressure, the expectations, all that stuff, because it just seems like it's a group of guys that are like, ah, I'm just here to play, it's okay. No, man, like have some leadership and some expectations and some pride and personality in yourself.

Witty, I do think that's a fair point. I was just trying to be careful to not sound like, oh, he doesn't speak to the media, that's why I'm gonna criticize him, or he's not a good— 'cause that's not, like what's most important? Is on the field. Yeah, I love the stuff with Erling Haaland. But you know what wouldn't be fun is if he wasn't scoring goals at the World Cup and then doing a blog and vlog and putting out pictures of him in a cowboy hat. And I'm glad you brought up Weston McKinney, because another point I wanted to make is, sources close to the team, like, it's like somebody joked, like, Pulisic, like, if your personality was Weston McKinney's, you'd be the biggest star. You'd be a superstar. And like McKinney's like, yeah, from what I've heard. And McKinney and like, so I also wouldn't ascribe this to the whole team. McKinney is one of the most buoyant, fun, big personalities that I've ever covered. He's hilarious and he's nonstop. Like, even Flo Balogun was joking like, yeah, I've told him to like cool it and like, you just— he just won't listen. But he means well.

Like, even like, he's so much fun. Or like joking, when, when we get to watch the first 15 minutes of training sessions, they always do rondos, which is the one thing that I miss about playing even collegiate soccer. Anything like of a training session. Those are the most fun. Weston McKinney is the loudest. Most fun, most engaged player every single day in that part of training. It's very fun to watch. And Tyler Adams is a great leader, and particularly Adams and McKinney, the way that they play off each other in interviews. Like, Adams has a good personality. He's more serious when he comes off because that's who he is, but he's fun. Tim Ream is a little bit different, but like, he's— he can be a fun guy to talk to in the media. There are— there are— Chris Richards is a great personality. Mark McKenzie. You kind of go on down the list. I don't think it's fair to ascribe this to the whole team.

Well, let's talk about the team and how they came out flat. And I mentioned, I think Pochettino skating a little bit because there is no explanation for what happened on the wings, how the midfield got chewed up. The United States flatly could not get anything going. They looked uninspired and flat. And the exact opposite can be said for Belgium. Now, I know they found inspiration off the pitch, no doubt, but It was shocking. It's not like we were playing Argentina. It's not like we were playing Spain in '09. The closest that I felt to that was that Copa America match like about a decade ago, where at the very end the US finally mustered up a lazy cross that I think counted as a shot on goal. We had no shot in that match. Why was that, Witty?

I don't know. I don't know. And I was in the stadium. I went to the game as a fan, and I was sat next to our friend Fonzie. We both looked at each other after 5 minutes and went, This isn't good. Like, no one is doing anything well. And to your point, that implies something more systemic. That doesn't, to me, seem like 11 players individually shit themselves in the big moment. Like, it just doesn't seem like that's possible. Um, maybe that's exactly what happened. Maybe they were outtacticked and finally someone decided to play over the press rather than through the press. Courtois just kept hitting these long balls over and over and over again. To the left side of that defense, and Ream and Robinson couldn't handle the aerial duels hardly with a physical presence in Charles de Ketelaere or Trossard or whomever. So there was definitely an element of it where they were outthought, um, and Poch absolutely, I thought, was undressed in the game. I thought Rudi Garcia coached circles around him in the game. But that— this is when you start to get into what happened with Balogun, the Trump thing, all that other stuff.

The fact that you become the villains of the piece after you've been heroes for 3 weeks. And the world hates you and wants you to lose. It's hard to not realize that before the game. So there are any number of things that went wrong on the day, but everything that the US excelled at is— was all of a sudden became their weakness in the game. They used their strengths and they turned it against them, Belgium, in the game. And that just doesn't make any sense. You can say it's level of opposition and there are plenty of people, some of your colleagues, Tom, at The Athletic, who are sort of from a very Euro-minded perspective going 'You guys aren't that good. What are you guys on about that you guys had higher expectations?' They set the expectations with how they played. If they played like that and lost, that would have been fine, but they played nowhere near that level. And I don't think it's explainable by the elevation in the standard of the opponent, because Paraguay gave Germany a hell of a game. They knocked them out. They gave France a hell of a game, and it was by far France's toughest game of the tournament, and the US destroyed them.

So I don't think it's explainable by the opposition. It's something happened there off the field, on the field, coaching mentally that completely led to the US dissolving in front of our eyes?

Well, Tom, we spoke about the versatility and optionality that Poach had used friendlies to establish, but something that happened with great success was lobbing the ball over to that left side of the field and going at the, at the left side. Were we predictable heading into this match? Were we too late to make an adjustment? By that time, the goose was cooked. Did Belgium see something that said, oh no, this team is super predictable in the attack. We could just exploit them and beat them on tactics. I don't even need to put Doku in.

For me, the midfield engine is what drove those group stage performances and the win against Bosnia. That is where the game was controlled between Tyler Adams, McKinney, and Tilghman. McKinney and Tilghman, it was not just the relentlessness of their movement and pressing and again, even in possession off the ball. But it was their intelligence. Like, they created overloads on both sides of the pitch at all times. The rotations of where Anthony Robinson and Serginho Dest would move was completely confusing. The Paraguay head coach called it like this, this pentagon in the attack connecting the two more attacking midfielders with the two wingbacks and the center forward. So that is where those games are won. And Belgium controlled that area of the pitch. They, like you said, they didn't necessarily try to play through the pass, but they have Youri Tielemans instead of, like, there was a Bosnian midfielder whose name is already escaping me. That central midfielder, when you're a pressing trigger to the other team, that's a bad sign. Belgium had more talent, yes, and I think that was more of the key. And Belgium played better. But I like Pochettino. I got on two minds, right?

Should get criticism for this performance, and he's taking it, and he's saying, you know, this, like, it is what it is, right? He's not pointing to the Balogun situation. And I honestly believe him because the players, like, insulated as best as they could. Like, it was a fun dichotomy of being around them when they first— they found out literally on the bus to training the day before the game that Balogun was going to be available and they were all celebrating it. And like, maybe a little bit naively, because all the while the entire world is turning on them because of the appearance of corruption, because of the, you know, appearance of bending the rules for something that FIFA spokespersons told us after the game, you cannot appeal this red card. This—

it—

that's it. There is no— there is no what if. Right. So that is not going to be easy. But the players were just happy that he was around. So I don't think that that is an explanation. I don't think it is that Belgium was that much better. Like you said, Woody, I agree with that. Sometimes there are just inexplicable bad days. And while Pochettino should get criticism for not going further, I don't know how you fix Serginho Dest laying an egg in this game. I don't know how you fix the Matthijs de Vrij mistake. I don't know how you fix the Tim Ream mistake. I don't know. I don't know how you fix that. All of a sudden, your midfield trio that dominated games just isn't doing it well. What I will give credit to Belgium is I know how to fix it.

I know how to fix it.

How do you fix it?

They're not on the roster anymore. They're not selected anymore.

You get— who do you play? What do you do? You start Bergholtz, Aronson, and Zeddejas. Like, there you go.

I, I, I know Freeze— I'm never seeing Freeze ever again. I, I know that for sure. He can never get a call-up ever again. Maybe a backup at the Gold Cup, but yeah, there are ways to fix it.

Starting in goal though, like to Tom's point, who's starting in goal? You're like, just anyone?

Hey man, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not the manager. Like, I, I do think that there are other options, no doubt. Like, Freeze just never seemed good enough, and it played out in horrific fashion. All right, I want to get to where we're going, but before I do that with Witty Let's talk about where we are right now. I think it's safe to assume, especially with the reports that Pochettino was talking to AC Milan right before the World Cup, which didn't land the right way. I think it's safe to assume Pochettino is going to get back to the club game and we're going to have to find a new manager. There was some managerial news for the US. A person that, that I've earmarked as a potential future men's national senior team manager was just named to the U-23s and Steve Tarundolo, who I rate, who's had success success at the club level. What is Pochettino's future here? How quick does the United States turn the page, or do you anticipate this page, this chapter, being a little bit longer than we expect?

So before the tournament, or maybe a month before the tournament, I would have said it's basically like a less than 5% chance that he's still the manager directly after the tournament. I still feel that way about the 2030 World Cup, but there is at least a possibility that he sticks around moving forward, provided that there's a buyout clause in his contract. For the club jobs that he's going to want in the future, that he wants now, that just maybe aren't open. So I'll look at it from Pochettino's lens first. He's getting paid $6 million a year, assuming that they wouldn't, you know, give him a big pay decrease or he wouldn't accept a big pay decrease, because why would he? Not the worst thing to remain the US national team manager in some low-pressure games while, while you're getting paid really well and you're waiting for a club job to open up. So for US Soccer, they offered him a new contract before the World Cup. That, as far as I understand, is still on the table and conversations will recommence after the World Cup. They wanted to take a little bit of time to kind of let this digest, to think, to analyze and ponder the future.

But again, if you asked me 2 months ago, I'd say a very, very small chance that he's here a day after the World Cup. Right now, it's, it's more than that. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say anything like 50/50, but like, it's, it's certainly more than 5%, right? I don't know if it's the likely outcome, but there's more of a share in the pie for that to happen. So then the question is for US Soccer, if you don't believe he's going to be here in 2030, or maybe they do, who knows? But if you don't believe he's going to be here in 2030, then why would you agree to putting a buyout in his contract if that's what he wants? Why would you agree to continuing to build around him if he's not likely to be here through the full cycle? Because sources have been insistent on this for, you know, even when he took the job, he wants to be back in club football. He wants to be in London in particular if he can. And if that— like, he met with AC Milan. Like, that wasn't, that wasn't a shock.

It was unfortunate for him that he met with people who immediately got fired the next week. So he was not actually in the running for that job. And it was just unfortunately a little controversy that didn't actually have a chance for him to get that job because of how things would shake out at Milan. But that was indicative of everything that we've heard. And the likelihood is that he's not going to continue in this role. But with how the magic of the group stage went, with the good feelings, with the contract offer on the table, and the lack of obvious other candidates, maybe there's a little bit of a chance he sticks around.

Witty, what do you want to see?

Uh, well, not that. I, I don't, I don't want to see Mauricio Pochettino stick around because we're the safety school. That, that doesn't sound very good to me at all. And I have not liked— the one thing that, that I've most disliked about Poch's tenure— I haven't disliked a great deal of it, but this idea that every time a job opens, that every time Spurs need an emergency manager every time AC Milan comes open and he does the interviews with the London press about, you know, this, and I miss London, I miss the club game, and all that stuff. I— that's not for me. I like— if you want this job, then you want this job. Now, I think he did the job very well in the month that he had it up until that last 16 game here at this World Cup, but the time in between, the experimentation, some of that stuff, trying Pulisic as a false 9, you know, trying all this stuff didn't really make much sense to me. But The idea that you're just gonna keep him around so that maybe he's your coach until Copa America and then you bring in someone else, that just doesn't make any sense to me.

If you're gonna get a coach, get a coach for the next 4 years you actually can build around and do something with. I think there are a number of candidates, you know, from the American game, BJ Callahan probably being the number one. I, I saw yesterday Croatia's manager, uh, just left his post because he's been there for a long time. I don't know, successful national team coaches of other national teams kind of seems like a profile that I would go after. But I mean, there are any number of ways you can go from a coaching direction.

Witty, the name that has been thrown around, and I want to be clear, this isn't my sourcing. I've just seen him kind of connected to, and I don't know if anybody else's, was Roberto Martinez. And I got to tell you, I'd run it back with Poach, even if it's a window-to-window contract basis rather than Roberto Martinez.

All right. So the thing that I've been fantasy booking, I'll give you an opportunity to answer what Tom just said there, Witty. I'm sorry about that. Is 2030 too soon for Michael Bradley? I feel like that's preordained, Witty.

Yes.

Yeah, I mean, he's been a senior head coach for 6 months. So I mean, let's let him get a little bit of experience at high level. He seems like 2034 for me. But I mean, look, there are plenty of coaches who have proved— I mean, Pep Guardiola went from being the Barcelona B manager to being one of the best coaches in senior men's football in a year. So I mean, it's not impossible. That he is actually this good of a coach. But, uh, I mean, we'll see as this Red Bulls group continues to develop. I mean, the Red Bulls went from a team that routinely developed young players to didn't really at all for 7 or 8 years to now they've got 3 that are legitimate prospects for the US national team, all because of Michael Bradley. So I think it's not a bad idea if you want to just take a shot and say, you know what, you've been in a job for 6 months, but we know your dad, we know you, we know your work ethic, we know you're a good coach, and we believe in you. I would, I would totally be behind that.

It just seems a little bit early, certainly on the basis of— and Mike, I sort of think of this comparison a little bit. I remember when the University of Miami were looking for a coach when they brought Mark Richt in, and there was that kind of pool of candidates that was sort of making $2 million a year that you would always talk about with Miami because you didn't think that more was possible. And then you go from Mark Richt to Manny Diaz, and then all of a sudden Mario Cristobal becomes possible because there's a level of investment that is made in the program. If there are mega donors that are willing to get Mauricio Pochettino on a $6 million salary for the US national team, that takes the pool of candidates to another level than you would otherwise think. And so you can think a little bit outside the box, because if that's the salary that you can command as the national team coach, you can probably do better than a lot of the people that we're talking about that we just don't know are available or even possible for the US.

So let's get Mario Cristobal. Ironically enough, a lot of the same fundraisers are now with the US soccer. Ah, man, Mario Cristobal would find the talent. No doubt. So I think one thing that I will concede is that we've had two World Cup cycles, Witty and Tom, where we're changing our identity. We're going to take the fight to you. And while I think mixed results in the previous World Cup in Qatar, this was pretty good. I mean, the Paraguay match was as good as I've ever felt watching the U.S. men's national team. Can we put— can we cast aside the argument that we are a counterattacking nation? That's the only way that we're going to be developing. I know that there's been a lot of discourse, which is something that happens every 4 years. Every time the US bows out the pay-for-play system here, have we fundamentally changed as a soccer nation? And what is this World Cup's legacy, Tom?

We've evolved for sure. But for me, it's different than— and you see it play out against Belgium. And again, they aren't even one of the heavyweights. To, to be macro and try to be a little bit kind of more reserved than the emotions that come from a World Cup and getting smacked by Belgium like that. They are somewhere between the 8th and the 16th best team in the world. And that's been the case for 4 of the last 5 World Cups, one of which they missed. Obviously, that is, that is hugely embarrassing. But all that is to say, for the most part, they get to the round of 16. And if you take a step back, if you just start counting off the teams that are ahead of them, you go, okay, yeah, that actually makes sense. But of course we want more. We should want more. And for me, you can't really lose that club in your bag of defending deep, counterattack, and we're going to be gritty as hell. We're going to run through a wall. You would like what Paraguay did against France, maybe a little bit more ethically. But I think that needs to be there because let's face it, guys, for the next— I think we can rule out for the next, what, 36 years that we're going to be as good as a team like France, as good as a team like England at any given point when they're the best of the best in the world.

So you can take the game to a whole lot of countries in the world, and that should continue to be developed. Greg Berhalter did it more cautiously in terms of possession. Mauricio Pochettino, as he changed the team, it was scatterbrained and it peaked at the World Cup and particularly in those first two group stage games and then the game against Bosnia. But like, I like leaning into transitional nature and that can be counterattacking or that could be high pressing. And they were at their best at this sort of when they were high pressing, except for when Belgium played around it and Belgium had the players to do so. And then the US weren't winning those second balls. Those 50/50s, the balls that you're trained to win and you're dying to win when the mentality is we're going to counterattack and be defensive and be hard to beat. So I think it needs to be a blend of those things because if you use the analogy at the club level, man, we're never going to be Man City. We're never going to be Real Madrid. We're never going to be Barcelona. And those are the clubs that the rest of the world have to— the top of the food chain, the rest of the world has to adapt to.

So US, while we can be bullish for the future, but particularly in the short and midterm, We're not overnight going to produce Lionel Messi. We're not overnight going to produce Spain's midfield or France's attack. And that's okay. Like, that's an extremely high bar. But you have to work within the reality and work to the strengths of your team. And that was what I liked about Pochettino at this World Cup, is it feels like this team is really good in transition and pressing, but they didn't quite develop it the way that, you know, we hope to see against Belgium.

Woody, any thoughts on what Tom just said?

Yeah, I think, look, if you're ultimately talking about winning the World Cup someday, I don't think that you can do it via fluke. I think you have to go out there and beat the best teams. The problem is, is that going out there and beating the best teams is damn near impossible, even for countries that are currently at a higher level than us. Belgium just beat the United States. I think Belgium are going to get their clocks cleaned by Spain. Like, there are levels, and the levels are so big, the chasm between the levels are so big that we're probably heading, you know, unless there are some upsets here, for a semifinal of Argentina against England. And France against Spain. And you probably could have predicted that before the tournament started. Those, as a matter of fact, were the top 4 seeds coming into the tournament. They were the ones that were seeded in separate parts of the draw. Closing that gap is so hard, and the US is so far away from that. So yeah, I mean, at some point you're going to have to beat one of these teams via some means that is not, we're going to line up and try and beat you at your game.

But I, I still think that in towards the goal of trying to win it someday, I don't mind for aspirational reasons trying to say this will be our style of play. And also just because of the nature of how European games are scheduled— they have the Nations League, they have qualifying for both the Euros and the World Cup— there is not a lot of room to play European teams in the calendar. So for the most part, you are playing teams that you're better than. And so it's hard to say let's set up and play defensive against Curaçao or Trinidad and Tobago or Honduras or even Mexico. Go beat Mexico at your game. So it's hard to gain that experience. That's why Copa Americas are valuable and why 2024 was such a wasted opportunity. But yeah, I think you kind of have to go through with this idea that we are aspirational because otherwise you'll never get to the stage of actually winning the thing, which I presume is the goal.

I'm going to keep it with Witty here, but I want Tom's thoughts on this. I was surprised to hear Commissioner Garber mention that Landon made some fair points in that going behind a paywall. They weren't mature enough for that. This was meant to be a launchpad and the numbers are crazy. The final is going to approach Super Bowl numbers and honestly, there is no accurate number for what we're seeing here because this is as communal a sporting experience as there is on the planet. You know, there are scores for every one television that is dialed into this. MLS's calendar for this time being was meant to hit the ground running. But not super accessible. I know that our country can keep the energy up for international competition. That seems to resonate. That's great news for the ladies next year. But as I try to explain to people, this is the World Cup finals. The World Cup is basically a 3-year experience. There's all sorts of opportunities to get behind the international badge and talk about these things the way that you are right now. How do we keep this energy, understanding that there is going to be a great deal that tails off?

I don't expect people dialing it up for Rapids, Real Salt Lake. But what can we do as a soccer community to learn from the, the obvious momentum that the sport has right now? How do we make sure we don't burn up that capital, Witty?

I think you have to eventize as much as you can. You have to try and make things seem like a big deal. I will say I give credit to the league for scheduling 2 games in between the semifinal and the final on Fox, one of which is going to be an El Trafico on the Friday night which is probably your biggest rivalry game between LA Galaxy and LAFC. So you try and capture these moments, but the World Cup is just so easily explainable. You say, which is the best nation at soccer? That's what we're trying to find out. And everything else, even like all these people that I see on social media, oh, try and sell me on a Premier League team, try and sell me on soccer. It's, well, you know, the Manchester City, they play in the Premier League and it's all the teams in England, but then they play in Europe and it's all the teams in Europe. And then there's a cup competition, then there's multiple cup competitions, and then there's a Club World Cup that's once every 4 years. And like, it requires explanation, right? And that's what we try and do.

That's what I, I do every day on the CBS Sports Golazo Network. Tom, that's what you do in The Athletic and for CBS as well. We try and sell you on this idea of how great are the stakes of PSG and Bayern. But I guess we're trying to crown Europe's club team is an easy explanation as well. But how you get there is not necessarily easy. The World Cup is just such an easy thing for people to get on board with. And this idea that ultimately when it's over and it ends, then NFL season starts again and NBA season starts again and MLB season is going on again. It's part of a calendar. So you have to find these moments, these now increasingly fleeting moments. And I think other sports are finding the right windows to highlight themselves. What are the days in the calendar that you can say, Here's a big soccer game, can you join us and watch this please? And I think that, that is a very difficult thing to do in a crowded media landscape. The World Cup being here, it being accessible, is the perfect way to connect with people in 2026.

But I'm not certain that even the highest level of the club game, the European club game, is as easily accessible. There will be more people that will watch it, but this idea that the 44 million people that watch Mexico-England are going to watch Monterrey and Toluca the following week on Univision on, you know, Sábado Futbolero. I just don't think it's going to happen because it's much more difficult to explain and to access.

Well, what he said, a lot of good things there, Tom. I'm curious your thoughts on that. And look, there's an investment that can be made by the league too. Hey, some of these stars that you're seeing— I'm not saying go out and sign Haaland, that's not possible— but is MLS going to ramp up its investment in talent acquisition and to what he said about making things big events. That means more Continental Clásicos. What can the U.S. Soccer Federation do with some of the bigger brands on their side of the planet in terms of scheduling? I think it makes them more ambitious.

No, we would play Mexico 5 times a year. Yeah.

Now we're cooking with gas.

Yes. What are you talking about? Selling PSG and Bayern and why that's difficult. What do you— let me sell you St. Louis City versus Sporting Kansas City next week. That's That's the tolerance test for me. It's barbecue. It's barbecue. Come, come watch. You name— you can't even name that many players from those teams. I don't mean to take a potshot, but my disappointment with MLS is they didn't do enough, nearly enough to meet this moment and take advantage of it. Just this World Cup being here, you still have to do something to get these fans. And Witty, like you said, no, it's not going to be 44 million. The same way that we, we all loved watching the Olympic hockey teams. And like, as much as I enjoy watching hockey, there's just not enough time in the day. It's still fine that like you're not going to get all of these fans. But for MLS, a few things. They didn't accelerate the calendar flip that is happening next summer instead of right now. The most obvious break in the calendar to do so, because when it came time to put your nuts on the table and make a decision, the owners said, we want to do another study.

We're still, We're not saying no, but we need to do another study. The World Cup was awarded in 2018. They've been doing studies. Like, it's inexcusable to me that that's happening in the summer of 2027 and not right now. Another thing is the roster rules. They've been loosened a little bit. There are more ambitious owners, and the constant fight behind the scenes is the legacy smaller money owners versus the bigger new money owners in MLS. And the smaller money legacy owners have more of a say. And that's why the roster rules haven't been expanded upon. Sporting directors too will say, why don't you just give us a cap of, let's call it, $20 million, but you still give 2 DP spots so you can still go sign Messi and Lewandowski and Griezmann. By the way, Lewandowski and Griezmann and Casemiro all just signed. They're joining MLS this summer. Like, that's awesome. But the Casemiro deal is a great microcosm of the frustration for MLS teams. He's signing a deal that is basically to get around the roster rules. $1.5 million one year, $1.5 million the next year, and then like 20 million as an option after that.

Whereas if he was joining a Mexican team, it would just be what— what's the average of that? 8 million a year. 8 million. 8 million. 8 million. And it's much easier to explain and it's much easier for these teams to do. And that, that's the biggest disappointment for me. You know who's going to benefit the most from the World Cup being in America for American soccer fans? Liga MX and the Premier League. It's not going to be MLS.

And that hurts me.

Well, that's an excellent point there. Don't mean to sound surprised. We do have some big—

Jesus, man.

We do have some big matches coming up. And let's close the book on the US for now. That was really great stuff. There's a lot to be excited about despite being deflated because, God, I can't even imagine what this nation would have been like if we had Spain and the US around the corner. Are you expecting chalk? I heard you lay out the semifinals. I'm like, that's pretty cocksure for Chris Whittingham, given that, you know, Switzerland's been confusing the hell out of me this tournament. I was convinced that they weren't that good. And now they're playing a style that seems to be tricky, and Argentina doesn't blow anybody out, and Norway just seemed to have a pretty easy time with Brazil. Do you expect chalk here, Witty?

Yeah, I mean, I, I will say that there have been a few upsets in the knockout round, but I definitely was browbeaten by Mexico losing to England, by the United States losing to Belgium, and even Colombia losing to Switzerland. That really— it seemed like it was sort of a day of no fun in the World Cup.

And we lost some good fans. We lost some good fans.

Just, just every, every group of every fan base that is worth their salt. I mean, we replaced the Colombians with the Swiss. What are we doing here?

What are we like?

What are we— how we missed out on Argentina-Colombia for the Swiss.

A devastating loss on multiple fronts. And while I would tout the Norwegians, it doesn't seem like the ladies have made the trip.

I mean, are you saying a devastating loss on multiple fronts and behind as well? And bottoms. But, but to answer your question, like, I do think that— I think we're heading towards a pretty chalky place. I really do. I think Morocco, I think, will actually give France a pretty decent run for their money. And I think Norway will challenge England. That game will be a game of survival because Neither of those two nations are going to know what's going to hit them when it's 5 PM at Hard Rock Stadium and it's 88 degrees with 110% humidity and a heat index of 174. It is going to be miserable out there. So I think those two games will be a slog. But honestly, I expect, I expect Spain to take care of Belgium relatively comfortably. And even for as much as Argentina have struggled with their last two games against Egypt and Cabo Verde, There's just something, for whatever reason, I think this game is going to be easier for them, and I don't know why. I can't explain that to you, but I think Argentina will get across the line. But yeah, I think we're heading towards the heavyweights taking over the semifinal, which would be great games, which would be really fun to watch, but it's not quite the spirit of the, the group stage in the round of 32 with what Cabo Verde achieved, with what some of these underdog nations have been able to achieve at this World Cup.

I think unfortunately this is the tournament of blue bloods. 8 teams have ever won it. And I think we're heading towards a semifinal that is going to be all the Blue Bloods in it.

Tom, are you as cocksure as Chris Whittingham is?

I'm 100% changing Whitty's contact in my phone to Chris Cocksure Whittingham. So I appreciate that more than anything else from this conversation. Yeah, it feels that way, doesn't it? Right. Like, even, even when, like, what, Paraguay upset Germany was a big one. But like, we knew that this wasn't like a historic type or a standard-bearing type of a German team. And that still took penalties. And, you know, the Cabo Verde was, was super fun. And then Argentina eventually go through. Same thing with Egypt against Argentina. Like, like you said, with a browbeaten into some of these favorites, and particularly with how good the favorites have looked, England, I thought for sure when they got, when they went a man down at the Azteca, that it was over and they stepped their game up. So it's, it's boring, but it is tough to see one of the underdogs kind of going through here. But hey, that's the magic of this game and the magic of this sport that I hope, I hope to be wrong.

So which one of these underdogs does have the best chance to, you know, break up the cocksureness here? Could it be Morocco? I have a sneaking suspicion it could be Morocco.

I think they're— I think they're the best of the underdogs. Yes, they have the worst opponent.

Correct.

They have the most difficult opponent to beat. I think it's Norway. I think it's Norway. I think—

agreed—

for what they showed against Brazil, because we talked about it, Mike, in the group chat, how many times in the previous Brazil rounds where Oh, Japan can do them. Well, they got scared of the yellow shirt. No, I didn't get scared of the yellow shirt for 90 minutes. They played and played and played, and then Haaland got his 2 goals. They were better than them for the 90 minutes, not just the moments that they defined the game. And yes, they got a penalty save from the goalkeeper, and there were plenty of other chances that Brazil had, but in terms of their approach, they weren't scared. So I think they'll take the game at times to England. So I think because of the conditions— the conditions are always the wild card. When you're playing outdoors in Miami. I think as well, it could be a factor as well for this France-Morocco game today because it's at 4 PM in Boston. It's going to be 90 degrees up there today. So I think conditions can certainly play a role. But yeah, I actually think it's Norway who have the best chance. Morocco, the best team. Norway, I think, have the best chance on the basis of how good they are and how at times England have looked vulnerable as well in this tournament.

I agree with that, Woody. Norway was the one I was looking at, and I would have said the same caveat of I think Morocco are probably the best of the dogs, but They have France, and that's really, really tough with how this team has looked. And England, for as good as they are, it's not as if they're like France blowing teams out of the water and like they're going to be really, really difficult to beat. I want to be clear, but Norway are not easy to beat either. And they have a cyborg, a goal-scoring cyborg who does nothing but post good Instagram content and YouTube content and score goals. That's all he does. So if there's a team, you'd look at it like that, that somebody it's a little difficult to beat. Plus they could have the best player on the pitch.

I really enjoy the time with you boys. Tom, brilliant work on the U.S. men's national team beat. Again, all the athletics coverage throughout the World Cup remains free, not behind a paywall. Witty, I heard you're going to be joining Jonathan Zaslow on ESPN Radio later today. Am I breaking that to you?

Yes, I am. All right. 8:30 PM tonight, I'll be on with Zaslow.

Witty's face has been everywhere lately. Cocksure Chris Whittingham.

A lot of requests.

A lot of requests. And you're doing your part. You fellas have been doing your part in growing the game. And yeah, I don't think they're going to be locked into the NA, but I do think there's some forward momentum here. And I do think that we can sell Mexico-USA multiple times and making it a continental clasico and, and trying to be as aggressive as we can with schedule making and finding those, those gaps in the calendar. Because, yes, I think MLS has screwed the pooch in a lot of ways here. But one thing that I think is a clear draw is the red, white, and blue. And the more that we can build on that, it's simple, it's easy, it's digestible. We have new partners now for the World Cup qualifiers. Again, we didn't have qualifiers, we just had a bunch of friendlies. So with new broadcast partners to really pump up these qualifiers and let people know the World Cup is a 3-year process, everything at Curaçao matters, at Haiti matters. Well, I guess that's both at Curaçao for the moment, but in all of this stuff, Matters at Trinidad and Tobago. All that stuff matters.

And I think that we all have to do our part. And when these qualifiers come around, when the Gold Cup comes around and U.S. Soccer has to stop doing the thing where they don't select their best, because I think we're, we're turning the page on a lot of these players. So the Gold Cup is something they should absolutely go for. There's all sorts of rumors about Copa America. I think the foundational building block going forward is this national team. And I know you guys will be carrying the banner. So thank you both. For the tremendous work that you've been doing.

Thank you, sir.

Thank you, Mike.

All right, we'll be back with you before the semifinals to preview the semifinals on Morally Abhorrent, and then we got a big-time final in one of the worst possible stadiums. We'll get excited for it though. Thanks for tuning in. Till the next time.