Transcript of Would Donovan Mitchell Win MVP If You Swapped Him With SGA? | Hour 2 New

This is the Dan Levator Show with the Stugatz Podcast.

Right now on the television, Zaslo, on First Take, they are asking the question, are Cavs proving to be the tougher matchup for the Knicks in the Eastern Conference Finals? Uh, the thing that I wanted to ask you guys, uh, if you've been listening to the show, uh, for a while, you've heard me say that Toronto, an otherwise good team, has exactly zero chance if it had faced the New York Knicks because of the matchup problems. Cleveland has been exposed the last few years. I don't get it, but they have more trouble with Mitchell Robinson. Their front line has more trouble with Mitchell Robinson than any team in the league, and he has rendered Mobley useless a few times, and I think Jarrett Allen missed one of the series, but Cleveland pre-James Harden, no shot against the Knicks, 0% shot. But James Harden changes things. And the thing that I wanted to ask you guys based on last night's game, okay, bit of a stunner, bit of a stunner for a couple of reasons. Detroit's Achilles heel is offensive, and they are offensive on offense when they have 4 shot clock violations in the fourth quarter.

Like, they've got a big problem there that they don't quite have a James Harden. Cade Cunningham turns the ball over a lot, but they've got a lot of limitations. And there isn't a player who's cost himself more money this postseason than Jalen Duro.

Oh, woof.

I mean, just dismantled in a way that's super weird for an All-Star.

Like, not a big-time player?

I mean, just not an All-Star. Not, not proving to be an All-Star.

Didn't play in the fourth or overtime.

Well, they were, they were +14 when he wasn't on the court.

Last handful of games for Jalen Duren: 9, 5 rebounds, 4 assists. 8 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists. 11 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists.

How do you have 4 rebounds every game?

8 points, 10 rebounds, 1 assist.

But this is what I'm telling you about what Mobley and Allen can do to somebody like Duren they can't do to the Knicks. Like, they have serious issues on Mitchell Robinson, but James Harden and that trade is meant to be a difference maker. And the thing that I wanted to ask you guys in the audience, because I really am having trouble throughout the history of all sports finding a perfect comp for what it is that I'm about to say, which is James Harden is an all-time player. He is excellent in a way that cannot be disputed. And yet, because he's representative of a time when some people have turned on basketball, and he represents some of the Reasons that people have turned on basketball, playing for so many teams, questions about how much he cares, even though I'm telling you, you can't be an MVP of that league if you don't actually care. You're not going to be better than all of the world's best athletes not caring. There is no human being who's been born, who's not taking care of his craft, who's not named Shaq, who can go into the league and just be better than everyone else.

While not caring. But his style of play is also unlikable. So he also represents the advent of change in a league where you're like, I don't like how they're playing out here, taking all these threes. I like it in the post. I like my basketball to be whatever it is that I remember. So you end up with a player who's indisputably great but is going to be diminished at every turn because people don't like what he represents. And there aren't a lot of players anywhere else in sports that are as good at what they do as James Harden is at what he does. And are no one's favorite player. And furthermore, who's the team you associate him with? Is it like— go ahead, is it Houston?

I think it's Houston.

Is it OKC?

I think it's Houston.

No, I think it's Houston. But you're right, it's a good point because you could say, all right, Durant, Durant has bounced around and he doesn't really have a team. But there are plenty of people who— plenty of NBA fans who Kevin Durant's their favorite player. A lot of NBA fans who feel that way. I don't feel like there's— I don't feel like James Harden is anyone's favorite player.

Put it on the poll at @LevittardShow. Is James Harden anyone's favorite player? Uh, he also has the label, and more than just about anybody going in sports right now, someone who's going to shrink in big moments. And last night could have been one of those moments. He missed 3 free throws, like, at the end of that game when it's being decided. He grabbed the rebound on one of them, which Detroit can't allow, but he took 6 free throws missed 3 of them. He was trying to give them the game.

Yeah, I was watching that game. I'm like, are these teams ass?

Yes.

Is this just a bad East? That's a 1 seed from Detroit. And watching them over these last few months, and I know they had the injury to Cade Cunningham, but now he's back. They seem to be really struggling. I'm not impressed with any of these teams. I was watching that game. I'm like, these are both unserious teams.

That was the issue with Detroit. And I mean, had talked about it a bunch. Like, if you don't have a secondary player If Durant can be what Durant was when he was on fire during the regular season, okay, great, you got a post presence that could really score. But when he's out of the game, you do not have a player that can help Cade Cunningham get a shot off.

I think it's— I don't think it's two teams are ass. I think it's two teams who are not good enough for this moment. You know, Detroit, Cade Cunningham has been phenomenal. Yes, the turnovers are bad, but like, he's doing everything by himself.

The turnovers are bad. Uh, James Harden had 6 of those last night. That was not a good James Harden. They'll, they'll point out 30 points, but it was inefficient. It was inefficient. And at the end, he did some things that could have very easily stained him.

Yeah, that, that missed free throw provided he— I mean, he got the rebound, right? If he doesn't get the rebound, who knows how that game unfolds. I got a comp. Now, he's done some winning, but also he plays in a sport that affords you multiple times a year to potentially win a trophy. But a lot of the things that play with James Harden play to Neymar. Flops, doesn't take the game seriously. Can he actually be your best player on a championship team? This guy has so many God-given gifts, but he seems like he likes playing poker and partying more than the actual game. I think Neymar is a really good comp.

Do you guys have many others? Uh, and, and what I'm asking for basically is somebody who is eternally excellent, somebody who there is no dispute. You can, you can try to knock him down because you don't like him, and you can certainly criticize that he hasn't won or say whatever you want about his big moments, but there is no disputing that James Harden is an all-time scorer. And yet is so, if not disliked, not liked enough that he would be A, nobody's favorite player, B, continually diluted in regards to his excellence because people don't like all the things that I'm talking about, which he's, he's a bit of a poster child for the last, I don't know, 10 years of the NBA where the game gets changed in a way that not everybody likes and therefore they downgrade his excellence.

I think I've got one guy who played for a lot of teams All-time great, came off somewhat unlikable, probably not anyone's favorite player. Terrell Owens.

Terrell Owens is a good one, but when I point to like Ricky Henderson or Gary Sheffield or Terrell Owens, I'm also having the added bonus of that's a personality type that whatever is objectionable. Harden's not that. Like Harden's all playing style and style of play and, and, and job choices, right? Like But it's not, it's not his personality that's bothering you. It's the way he's playing basketball. If you do indeed not like him or downgrade him, but these other 3 guys that would, that have bounced around a lot or their excellence gets diminished, you have no misunderstanding as to why it is they've bounced around. It's not, it's, it's who they are as people, not as players.

As personality-wise, like, what have we ever heard James Harden say outside of Daryl Morey is a liar?

Yeah, but I haven't heard him say that. But the thing that James Harden— it is a great moment. But the thing that James Harden also ushers in is the era of the Kardashians. The all of it. Like, the thing you associate with James Harden is, oh man, he likes himself some strip clubs. Like, that's, that's what the Jersey in the Rafters. That's what the personality is. That's right. Put James Harden's jersey in the—

and the only one they'll be in. Wasn't T.O.

great in the Super Bowl?

He played— he was fantastic in the Super Bowl. I—

that does eliminate him a little bit.

He, for whatever reason, he is emblematic of this. And he's not a guy that doesn't— like, he plays, he doesn't do a lot of these maintenance programs that the other guys do, but he just forces his way out of teams. And everyone looks at him and realizes that there's more potential, particularly on the defensive end too. He's as gifted an offensive 2-guard as, as we've seen in that league. Like, seriously, Mount Rushmore talent at the 2-guard position.

But I don't believe that there's more potential in James Harden. He's an MVP. He's— he's reached his potential. Like, he's not—

zero championships with like Mount Rushmore 2-guard capabilities.

He's not going to win a championship.

No, because it's— you can feel it. It's just tangible. You should try harder.

I feel like I've got a decent comp pre-broadcasting career. Charles Barkley.

Yeah, I don't think— you guys are doing something here though with the winning of a championship or the lack of winning of a championship that I'm not doing. I'm putting that off to the side. Whether Terrell Owens plays well in a Super Bowl or not is something I'm putting over there. We can have a reasonable discussion about whether James Harden deserves to be in sports viewed as the number one choker that there is anywhere in sports. And that's one kind of conversation to have about him, but it's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the inability to be a favorite player. I'm talking about being representative of a time in basketball which represents a shift that you're sort of the face of, which is what Mike is saying, which I find unfathomable, right? Asking James Harden to try harder. I can feel you're not trying hard enough, and the guy wins MVPs. Makes it feel like you're saying the reason he wins MVPs is because the sport's been distorted. It's not because of how excellent he actually is. It's because we've changed so much that we're allowing the guy to take 15 threes a game, and I don't like that.

And he becomes emblematic of this thing that I don't like.

But then that's the change that the NBA has seen most recently. Like, there was a long stretch of time where the NBA didn't change until that moment. Right. Like you talk about Charles Barkley. He was— was he anybody's favorite player?

Yes.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

I'm from—

I bought his book.

Okay.

I'm from Philadelphia. Definitely still loves Barkley. I would imagine Phoenix still loves Barkley.

He was my favorite player growing up.

Like, I don't know. Does Houston love Harden still?

I think— I think Houston, they might. What makes it hard with him is that he's traveled around so much and it usually doesn't end great. But when he was at Houston, there were a lot of people saying, Harden's my favorite player. He was very marketable. Chris Cody, when you come over to my house and we put on the games, I got basketball, I got baseball going on. But what do I lay out for you and the boys for entertainment and drinking? Miller Lite!

Uh-huh.

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Oh, when you open that with the can though, when you—

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I have goosebumps thinking about the first sip.

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Dan Lebatard.

World Rawr 3.

Stugatz.

We're going to get that off the board.

World Rawr 3 colon our group chat has a pretty good feeling about this one.

This is the Dan Lebatard Show with the Stugatz.

Well, when you guys, though, talk about, say, Charles Barkley or another example, Allen Iverson, James Harden is a better basketball player than Allen Iverson and yet will not be regarded as such because I believe people don't like a ton around him. But when you mention Iverson and Charles Barkley or even Terrell Owens, really, There are plenty of people who like the guy who's rebellion. James Harden's not that.

No.

Like, there are plenty of guys— there are plenty of people who like the polarizing guy just because he's the anarchist. Allen Iverson represents a time where a lot of people liked his style. The thing that James Harden is doing is he's either causing indifference or anger, but he's not causing what Iverson and Barkley did, which is rallying a bunch of fans around. No, I want to embrace chase this guy, want to be associated with this guy, want to wear his jersey, want to be about what this guy's style is away from basketball.

That's why Neymar, I think, is a perfect comp. It's not— it's because of the style of play too. It's the flopping, and it's like, oh, you hack the system, you take a bunch of threes and you put your elbow out trying to get to the line where you can have a 30-point game, and I look at your box score, I'm like, this was a bad game. That's the stuff that a generation of basketball fans absolutely hates. And SGA who's such an innocuous personality, it's falling on him. The playing style, much like Neymar, bothers people.

The style of play and the choking is number one for Harden, but also I think we're forgetting to mention a huge part of what turns off the fan base is eventually at every spot except for Oklahoma City, he quits. Like, quitting is the thing that a sports fan hates more than anything, he quits when he's not happy. That's way up there in the dislike.

Again, emblematic of the time though, correct? Like, guy who changes teams, doesn't have an allegiance to any one place. You're never going to associate him with what Sedano was saying, is Kobe's in LA and LeBron will never get to top him because he spent the entire time in LA. Something we talked about yesterday, uh, and it was too glancing for my liking, and I'd like to bring up again with you guys to see if we can have a different discussion around it because Uh, we were talking about Donovan Mitchell and the idea of can you win a title if that's your best player? And the question I wanted to ask you guys, if I swap out Donovan Mitchell and SGA, is Mitchell winning the MVPs? Like, if I just swap them out, if I trade them for each other, am I getting a championship team in OKC? Because SGA is somebody whose style a lot of people also don't like, but he's not going to have some of the problems Harden has because he's associated with one team. That team really loves him. They've seen him grow up. He's won a championship there. There are no questions about his, uh, his personality or how much he cares.

But if I take Donovan Mitchell and I just swap it out and I just trade them for each other, is Donovan Mitchell winning the MVP with the same usage rate that SGA has at OKC?

That's top of the heap. That's pretty tough.

It's a good question.

Should we put it on the poll?

I was making the argument that if you put him on that Boston team and you swap out Tatum for Donovan Mitchell, I, I think Donovan Mitchell becomes an all-time legend.

It's what made me think of it when we, when we left the show, because Boston also hacked the system for a year and made me wonder about some of these things. Go ahead and put that on the poll as well, even though it's a super sportsy poll question. If I replaced SGA with Donovan Mitchell, is Donovan Mitchell now the champion MVP? Yes or no? I don't think he's the MVP.

I think they're a worse team from a wins-loss perspective in the regular season, but I think in the playoffs they're still leveled, um, with where they are right now. Even though SGA is amazing in his own right, what they've built around SGA will allow Donovan Mitchell to step in there, and all of a sudden Chet is more important, J Dub is more important, their bench guys become more important. Um, but it's really close.

The reason I do it with Donovan Mitchell though, I think if I ask you guys the same question on Jimmy Butler, you're not as eager to entertain it as a possibility as, as if I say it on Donovan Mitchell, because Donovan Mitchell a better scorer than Jimmy.

No, that was literally the example that I cited. Yes, I think he could have been good enough to win a championship as the best player on a team with that Miami team. And Miami swung out twice, uh, trying to, trying to get him. If you put him on that team with Bam and Jimmy Butler, then Bam doesn't have to be your second best guy, Jimmy doesn't have to be your best guy, and Donovan very clearly is your best guy. And I think he would have been able to win a championship down here. Is, you know, probably a great regret of Pat Riley's.

I think if you replaced Sheik Yodas Alexander with Jimmy Butler on this Thunder team, you know, like, like Butler from 4 or 5 years ago with the Heat. I think Butler is potentially the MVP of the league.

Well, but Butler, the reason I bring up Jimmy Butler is because for a long time when he was an 8th seed before he did the things in Miami, he's the one guy in the NBA that was getting hit a lot with the idea of, yeah, good player, can't be top guy, but can't be the best player on your team if you want to be a champion. I don't know how many guys— give me the number. That you guys think that I can put in front of you where just guys in the league that you can say without question, if he's your best player, you can win a champion. Do you want to— you want to try and create this list? Because we gave it to Anthony Edwards, and I give it to Anthony Edwards even though he has not done it. And what I'm holding against Donovan Mitchell, though, is that outside of last year, he's generally not going to be a top seed. But I can also say Man, Donovan Mitchell probably hasn't had as good a number 2 as the one that he has right now. Like, isn't this the best number 2?

And they've got similar skill sets, so they have to somewhat take turns every once in a while between Harden and Donovan Mitchell on the usage rate.

I mean, it's a hard thing when there are certain players that have already done it and I still don't actually believe it. Like Jaylen Brown, we've seen him, seen him be the best player in an NBA Finals and won a championship, right? But they ran into teams that lost their best player. Even in that Finals, they lost Kyrie.

So is he the best player on that team?

I mean, he won the MVP.

I know, but Andre Iguodala won a Finals MVP. He's not the best player on that team.

No, I know.

That's why I'm asking that.

I mean, it's pretty close. You know me, I'm a hating ass hater when it comes to Jason Tatum.

I think it's probably like a dozen to 15 guys in the league.

No way.

You think there's less?

There's way less. A dozen to 15 guys is so many guys that could be the best player. No way.

Yeah, I think it's probably at least a dozen guys. Let's see.

Okay, we've got a no way competition here. So you're saying no way. Let's see if you can name a dozen guys. You throw them, uh, Tony's way and we will see.

All right, you ready?

Uh, we will see. Tony, you got to give him yes or no quick. I don't want elaborations. I want yeses and noes.

I shouldn't have to think too hard. Cade Cunningham?

No.

Oh, this list is already crazy. Uh, Jason Tatum?

Yes.

Jalen Brunson?

Yes.

Donovan Mitchell?

No.

Uh, Jo— Tyrese Maxey?

No.

Paulo Banchero?

No.

Giannis Antetokounmpo?

Yes.

Tyrese Halliburton? No. Sheik Gildas Alexander?

Yes.

Victor Wembenyama? Yes. Nikola Jokic?

Yes.

Luka Dončić?

Yes.

Anthony Edwards?

Yes.

Could be a lot more than 12, dude. Uh, Kevin Durant?

No.

Devin Booker?

No.

Kawhi Leonard?

No.

Steph Curry.

What? No one— why? What do you mean he's won a bunch?

He's, he's won a bunch. You're talking about right now, but he's not the best. He can't be the best player on a team. But that's past. He's talking about right now.

He had a really good year. He did.

He has best season ever. He had the best season ever.

If you plug him in on OKC right now, like, I'm not asking you, can the Clippers— why?

Like, they win the championship.

Steph Curry?

Yes.

Zion Williamson? No.

Cooper Flagg? No.

Ja Morant.

No.

How many we up to?

Ja Morant.

Like 8 or 9.

No one was keeping track.

Nobody. It seems like no one was.

I did keep track. I started writing. I have a pen.

I have a pen.

I started writing at the quietest.

You don't have a pen.

I got so mad.

Roy, you're sorry about that. You're sorry about that. Tony can say I was talking. I was trying. I was trying to answer. You're sorry about that on I don't have a pen and that's the only way I can count.

The pen's on the other side.

In Roy's defense, I have a pen and did not keep track. Leon Dreisaitl.

In Roy's defense, also, he's really tired from last night and what I believe to be the strangest livestream we've ever done because of the teams involved. So there were two comebacks last night that I thought were fairly majestic. Colorado coming back against Minnesota, and Cleveland shouldn't have won that game last night. Like, if more people cared about the Detroit Pistons, they'd be slamming them for choking in that game and having things like 4 shot clock violations in the 4th quarter. And their win probability when there were 3 minutes left in that game, uh, their win probability was over 96%. What did you guys think about the end of regulation? Do you call either of those fouls at the end of regulation? The one that was obvious on Donovan Mitchell? And the one that was obvious by Jared Allen.

And I understand why they didn't call it. We were talking about it here before the show started. I'm like, man, that, that was even a frustration foul. Like, well, Tony meant to do it.

And Tony Brothers' explanation, because a pool reporter caught up with him after the game, Tony Brothers' explanation was bullshit. Yeah, that it was incidental contact.

No, it was telling you what he said. The broadcasters also framed it that way. That's not— if that game is on mute and you don't have the commentators couching it, it's like, well, like, he tripped him up. That looked like a frustration foul. We just blew the game and Allen kind of lost his mind.

IQ play from Jared Allen. So lucky. Like, that's a foul. I'm glad they didn't call it.

That's a foul at any other time in any other basketball game being— it's a foul.

He got— he got mad lucky and everyone just understood that no one wanted to make that call, but he should have been punished for that lapse in judgment.

Zebra's got to swallow the whistle there.

He did.

And he did. No, I'm saying at that point you cannot make it about you.

I think also part of why we're both going for the ball. I think also part of why I'm good with them not calling it. Detroit was up 9 and didn't score in the final 3 minutes of the game. Like, get out of here with your foul.

4 24-second violations.

Your loose ball foul with no time remaining to go to the free throw line. Like, I, I'm over that.

I appreciate you guys understanding the situation. I mean, could have used that kind of refereeing in the Battlecourt Final. You can't let it end on a double fault, especially when it was that close.

That has to be one of the more obscure ones we did.

We did like a midweek highlight stream ended up being a, you know, a playoff preview, to be fair.

Uh, Roy, are you— you feel like you're hurt by me pointing out that it was a strange, uh, couple of teams to be playing in our live stream? That we're, we're covering live, uh, Colorado Avalanche and Minnesota Wild? You don't think that those are strange teams for us to be doing?

Well, first of all, You got the best team in the league versus possibly the third best team in the league in a second round matchup in an elimination game. So there's that.

Who's who? It's a playoff game.

I hate this playoff format.

How dumb is the format?

Because, you know, you could, you could make a solid argument. Carolina would probably protest.

They played the 7-8.

Two of the top 3 teams remaining in the playoffs. It's so, it's so dumb. And you can clip this if I'm wrong and I'll wear it. I've never been more certain at this stage of a playoff of who the two main champions are going to be. It's OKC. The only thing that can stop them is Wemby, and it's going to be Colorado. Colorado is so much better than everybody else. Carolina? They are so much better than everybody else. You're going to go into battle against Nathan MacKinnon with Aho? Oh, I know. Yeah.

I cannot wait to watch Carolina lose that series.

Aho?

Stupid Aho is what you just called him? I don't know if you guys agree.

It feels like this playoffs, though, in general is just missing a little something.

It is, right?

Yes, it's playoffs.

Yes, it's definitely us.

Listen, a little juice. Dan Lebatard. Our Panther group chat, we're confident against the Lightning. This is a different team.

You're a Panther group chat.

No, no, I think there's a— no, but dude, you're, you're so wrong on that. We've been terrified of this team forever, and I think there's a different energy where the Panthers, they want the Lightning.

Stugatz.

I want t-shirts made for this Panther run, what could be this Panther run. Our Panther group chat. We're not afraid of the lightning.

That's a tagline for World Rawr 3.

This is the Dan Le Batard Show with the Stugatz.

The basketball playoffs are missing a couple of different things, right? Last night's was a good game and it was a close game and an overtime game. There haven't been a ton of those. There has not been a ton of drama. Also hasn't been a ton of controversy or storylines. And when you talk to me about what happened with the end of Jared Allen's night and Cleveland's night last night, do you guys realize that what you are doing there by saying, 'Glad the referees, uh, didn't blow the whistle,' uh, one of the things you're doing is you're rescuing Jared Allen from an all-time dumb moment in Cleveland sports history. But what you're also doing is you're denying us what would have happened today, which is if Jared Allen had been called for that foul, no one would object to it being called a foul. Sure, it was so obviously a foul, it would have turned immediately into Jared Allen, you idiot. It would not have become another officiating story. Like, maybe there would have been some people saying you don't call that in that spot, but it was obvious enough as a foul that people would not have been saying that wasn't a foul.

They may have said you don't call that in that spot, but there wouldn't have been anyone saying that's not a foul. So they let something go at the end of that game because of the situation in the stakes. And it's what I always want. I want an arbiter to use judgment. I don't want an arbiter to do letter of the rule. I could get, I could get AI to do letter of the rule. Jared Allen got But bailed out there by the fact that in this one instance, Tony Brothers decided to not be Tony Brothers because of the game situation, but only because of the game situation. It was only stakes and game situation because we're all agreeing, right? Absolutely a foul. What, what Jared Allen did there at any other time during the game when Thompson falls to the floor like that, that is called a foul.

You want to hear JB Bickerstaff, coach of the Pistons? Here he is after the game.

He fouled Asar.

It's clear. He trips him when he's going for a loose ball in the game situation. You know, that's tough.

Thoughts? Like, just, you guys are good with the referee deciding? Yeah, that my job is to call fouls and, you know, apply the rules, and no one would disagree with the fact, the fact that that was a foul.

I just, I don't think they deserve the call. They went scoreless the final 3 minutes, blew another one.

Wow, you're adding even more context to it. So it's not about the play. It's about the last 3 minutes of the game.

It's fair. It would have been one hell of a bailout for a team that choked it away.

They didn't earn that call.

And I do think that's part of the human judgment there. Yeah, they didn't earn it, but— and team don't want to earn. Even JB kind of positioned it as a trip. I don't even think so. Like, I think Jared Allen kind of forgot what moment it was there. And just did a little frustration thing at the end.

When you say, are the Detroit Pistons the number 1 seed in the Eastern Conference? Ass. When you say that, it is absolutely a byproduct of them trying to win in the modern age with a style that is for cavemen and dinosaurs because they're trying to do it with physicality and defense and 4 shot clock violations in the 4th quarter of a playoff game. It's just you are super constipated and your 2nd All-Star is shrinking and can't be on the court at the end of the game because you're +16 when he's not on the court.

It's like the opposite of the NHL regular season where last year you see a team like the Washington Capitals and you're like, that style, yeah, they're getting a lot of points in the regular season, but that's not a playoff style. And here in the regular season, they just are effort all the time. Max effort, a hard team to play. Like you want— I don't want to play Detroit on the back end of a back-to-back. Are you kidding me? And then when they get to the playoffs, their talent just doesn't match up.

The Pistons are Kane's basketball. Like, they won a lot of regular season games and they lose in the second round.

But it's— but Kane's basketball can be Kane's basketball if no one around you can shoot. It can't be Pistons basketball when everyone's flying around in spaceships taking threes and you're out there in a Studebaker throwing elbows like, oh God, trying to—

trying to—

4-shot clock violations in the fourth quarter.

I'll correct you. It was part of the strategy to hit the rim with Kane's basketball. They can't do that in Detroit.

Let's talk for a second, though, about the changes in the sport that make the Knicks a team that could score 81 points by the half against the Sixers. And the Pistons are still out here doing it with a playoff style from the '90s. Because do you know how disorienting it is for me to watch the Knicks score 81 points in a half when I used to watch playoff basketball that didn't get that high in a game for the Knicks? And it makes me wonder in when I, when I go back and look from this perspective, how was I tolerating Knicks-Heat basketball that was in the '70s?

Oh, it was so good.

No, but if I put that in front of you right now, you'd be saying what Mike is saying about Detroit and Cleveland are ass.

Not me.

He's saying they're ass. You've got, you've got basically when they announce the starting lineups, ass. Not all-star, ass, ass, ass. Because you got 4 shot clock violations in the 4th quarter of a playoff game where you just can't even get the shot off. What is that?

It's the problem when they don't have a secondary scorer. Like last year, Malik Beasley hit 300 threes, was Sixth Man of the Year, and then got run out of the sport by Pablo Torre.

You say that Tobias Harris isn't a secondary scorer, but he has been in that series. Like, he—

guy was throwing up bricks last night. I went for 7 in the fourth quarter, was terrible.

Look, looked like you out there.

I think you'd go 1 for 7. That's actually a compliment for you.

Why are you coming after me?

I think you would hit 1 for 7.

Why didn't you say looked like Chris Cody in a red bathrobe out there? Like, why'd you come after me? Yeah. What? Because I'm 57?

Like, no, because you got hairy shoulders. It'd be funny to see you in the jersey.

Hairy shoulders?

Well, you know what, I do. I'm gonna, I'm gonna send you guys something right now.

I don't need to see your shoulders.

No, it's not my shoulders, and I don't have hairy shoulders.

Show Roy.

I don't have hairy shoulders. You said you did a couple seconds ago. Uh, no, what I said is that I have here something that I want to put, uh, uh, on the screen very quickly because There was, uh, I sent this to Amin the other day. There was a promo for the Celtics basketball game that had Bill Russell in it, and he was going up against an Atlanta Hawk who had hairy shoulders. And I'm like, and so I was just sending it to people, hey, how did Bill Russell dominate this particular era? And they just showed some guy who had looked like he had wigs on both of his shoulders, like had so much hair on his shoulders that that you had to downgrade how good a basketball player that actually was, even though it wasn't a bad basketball player, just based on the amount of hair on his shoulders. Because it looked like the guys that Philip Seymour Hoffman was playing against when he went Rain Man and Ben Stiller got a smelly, hairy, sweaty belly in his face that he had to lick. And I can't imagine how many times Ben Stiller had to do that scene unpleasantly, licking the hairy belly of a sweaty one-on-one player.

What's going on in basketball? I've gone back to the NBA Finals since 2019, and it's unlike any era that we've ever seen in this sport. Typically, when a team makes it to the NBA Finals, they have staying power. They're going to be in the conversation for 4 years, 5 years at the very least. They're going to be a fixture in the playoffs. Outside of Boston and OKC, you've had some teams completely fall off and quickly. Now, I know there's player movement and I know contextually there have been some injuries, but since 2019, we're talking Raptors, Warriors, Denver, Lakers, Pacers, Mavs, Bucks, Suns, Heat. What is happening in this sport? Is it because of the style of play that allows you to get really hot one season and you don't actually have staying power because all these teams can play this same style? It's just a matter of— it's a 3-point contest.

Let's think about this for a second because I'm trying to think— when I think of the Nets of Vince Carter, right? They go, they visit for a year, but they get knocked off by the Spurs. The Spurs stick around for a while, but the Nets can only get there for a couple of seasons.

I think it was pre-Vince Carter. Like, that would— I think this era in the Eastern Conference, Stan, that's the exact same example that I use. I think the East is so ass, it reminds me of the years that the Nets kept going up against the Spurs.

The funny thing about what you're saying, though, is I wouldn't have argued 2 years ago that the Celtics were ass.

Like, I know I put them in my list of 2 teams that have had staying power.

Been able to go back, and they just got bounced in the first round.

But what just happened to them was something that surprised me because, um, I'm expecting the Celtics to be around for a while. And you're not wrong when you say historically that doesn't get knocked off in the first round. Seeing Denver knocked off in the first round after winning a championship, to me was a celebration of how tough the West is. But that's not what I'm doing with the Celtics in the East.

Well, yeah, for Boston, I mean, it also hurts that Jaylen Brown clearly wants out. Like, that's like that. That's going to hurt their staying power.

I mean, again, they're probably— they're on the middle stand, gold standard type of staying power in this era since 2019. And they've even reshaped their team. There are teams that have completely fallen off that have kept their stars like the Heat, like the Suns, like the Bucks. I think this has basically become a league where if you get hot or you go cold in the postseason from long distance, is that not good? That is history altering. Where before you had teams that if you had your guys under contract for 4 years, you'd be there every year. You can't say that. I mean, 7 months after making to the— making it to the Finals, The Mavs are destined for the number 1 pick in the league.

It's crazy. It's 7 straight years of a brand new champion. That's never happened in the NBA.

No, but what he's doing there though, the thing that he's doing there that is— it's Milwaukee going from being that good to being awful. Indiana going from being that good to being awful. Dallas going from being that good to being awful.

But there's answers for all that, right? Like Giannis got hurt, they didn't have a good team around him. Uh, Halliburton tore his Achilles, the Pacers were completely done.

I understand.

Like, there's a lot of injuries in that list that throw off those guys from coming back.

That's why context explains Denver, right?

I know there's—

Great Western Conference.

There's, there's been player movement now for like 25 years in this sport and guys suffered through injuries. Look, when the Miami Heat lost their best player in Alonzo Mourning, they were still upset in the first round of the playoffs. They got to the playoffs. You're having teams become lottery teams now in the NBA. I think it's become a sport with a lot more variance in terms of all-time greatness.

I'd also like to amend my list of yeses earlier. I want to throw Kawhi back into the yes column after some stuff. And also Cade, I want to throw back into the yes column.

All right, so we're closer to 15 is what we're doing.

I don't know, Roy didn't keep count.

Didn't have a pen.

Chris didn't keep count.

Uh, it's the combination though, Mike. It's the variances on the threes and also just a spectacular amount of injuries that make it so the players are broken because the sport's a little bit broken. Ass, ass, ass.