Transcript of The Best of SBS: Napheesa Collier & Nancy Lieberman

You're listening to DraftKings Network. Surely in the history of South Beach Sessions, we have never had anyone tougher than this human being right here, Nancy Lieberman, two-time Olympian, two-time Hall of Famer, Big Three Coach, champion, and a pioneer, a Trailblazer. Is this how you became tough, though? Obviously, basketball has something to do with it, but where are the places where you can say, No, that's what made me strong. Those are the things that made me who I am.

I don't know if I can define strong, but I can define what was What was acceptable to me and what was not acceptable to me. And I knew, I am not going to live this life. This is not how I'm going to live. I don't know how I'm going to get from here to here, but I think sports is going to do this for me. And as one thing, playing in the Olympics in high school or then getting a college scholarship, player of the Year in College Basketball. And then the Dick Schapp's taking me under his wing and coming to Old Dominion and making sure that he had tabs on me. I'd come home. He'd say, You're going to come. This is what we're going to do. Jeremy Schapp, right on this knee at lunch, a year old, two years old. Dick was very instrumental in just making sure that I was protected or learning. And he would introduce me to so many people. He It's like, You need to do this, and you need to come to this event. And again, I can't tell you why. I want to do a book that says, How do you know...

How do you know Dick Schape? How did you know Muhammad Ali? How are you friends with Kevin Costner? How are you friends with Warren Buffett? How are you friends with Ice Cube? I don't have a clinical reason. I don't even know how I'm here with you, and I'm a fan of what you've done and what you've with poppy and to make me laugh or just how you were with your family. It was very impactful to me, and I get a chance to tell you this in real-time, like right now.

The people that you mentioned, though, so many of the men that you mentioned are obviously gravitating toward a place where commonalities exist on the chasing of excellence. They have at least some... Dick Schapp, when you're talking about Dick Schapp, he's got some knowledge knowledge of what it's taken to be you, the difficulties, the impediments, the obstacles. He's got this much knowledge, but he's got such knowledge. So I imagine that that's a place where you connect with all of these people is respect.

I hope so, and I think so. And some of the people that got to know me, and he got to know me because he interviewed me so many times. He was down at Old Dominion so many times. And I think he got to see probably that I was hiding behind being Nancy Lieberman, and I would never really open up as you and I are talking. This conversation would have not happened.

The story protects you, though. I can imagine that you've developed some armor over the years and had to in order to tell the story in a way that is palatable, inspirational, but not too vulnerable, because there must have been a whole lot of garbage inside of the dysfunction.

Yes, you're spot on. So we win the national championship. I'm player of the Year in College Basketball. I'm asked to come December of '79. This is the turning point for me. Come to the New York Stock Exchange to do an appearance for the Olympic Committee, a fundraiser. It gives me a chance to go home, be with my mom, my best friend growing up, going up the escalator. And I look at the guy and I go, Yo, who's the other athlete? That bravado. Who's the other athlete with me? And he says, Yeah, we're going in the green room. I said, Well, who's the other athlete? And we get to the top. He goes, Oh, yeah, it's you and Muhammad Ali. And I'm like, He's here? Muhammad Ali is here? I'm like, 21 years old. And the door opened. No joke. And it was like that, Oprah and the globe. I was hyperventilating. So on the '76 Olympic team, there was Sugar Ray Leonard. There were all these different boxers. And I love boxing. And Howard Davis, who won a gold medal, and he was from Queens. And I saw Howard, and I beelined to Howard. And my mother goes up to Ali and puts her arms around and goes, Mr. Muhammad, I'm Reanie Lieberman from Queens.

And my daughter, my daughter is the greatest of all times. And Ali looks at her and I'll show you the picture. I have it in my phone. And he goes, Listen, there's only one greatest of all times, and it's me. And my mom goes, Yeah, no, I know you're good, but my daughter... So he gives me this. It's like you and I right here. And I'm looking down and I'm telling you, I couldn't breathe. And he goes, Your mom says you're good. And I go, No, Mr. Muhammad, I'm the greatest of all times. And Mr. Ali, I beat people up all the time, every day. And he looked at me and he says, I'm going to ask you to stop hitting people. I said, Yeah, but they irritate me and they bother me. He says, I'm going to ask you to stop hitting people. I'm like, You hit people? He goes, I get paid to hit people. Interestingly, he's taking my information in like you are. When it was all said and done, he says, Can you come back to the Plaza where he was staying? We went up in his suite and we were there for four hours.

He He's teaching me about racism. He's teaching me about what hurts Black America, the color of their skin or people who are not, by and large, white. And he taught me about philanthropy. And he looks at me and he goes, Nancy, you're going to shake up the world. You're going to change the world. And I'm like, I have a game on Tuesday. I'm not understanding what he's saying to me. And then he says, God made you special. And then the thing that connected me for Ollie for 37 years was my answer. You know God, too? That is so cool. What is he like? Have you spent time with him? And he looked at my mother and goes, I'm going to need your land number. I'm going to need your physical address because I'm not letting her out there without me. And he would call me in college. He would check in on me. He was trying to come see me play, but the security was so difficult. Every step of my life, he was there, and he would just check in on me. I couldn't believe it. And the things he taught me, he taught me to respect everybody but fear nobody.

He says, You're going to encounter some hard times. Humility is confidence. Arrogance is not. I'd go, Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. It ain't bragging if you're good. We had this fun back and forth with each other as I got older. And I came out of retirement three times. I sit at the house with him and I'm like, You know I've come out of retirement more than you. And he give me the lip.

Oh, but wait a minute. You came out of retirement at 50? You came out of retirement because you wanted your son to watch you at 39. And then the other time, it's just hard to let go. What was the age of the other time that you came out of retirement?

Well, I basically retired after the WBL, the first women's league, folded. There was no league for me to play in. And then I got asked to play in the USBL six years later, which is the men's league equivalent, let's say, to the G League. Then at 39, then at 50. And I would always just joke with him, but he gave me that lip, and I'm like, Stop it. Stop the lip thing. Lonnie, he's doing it again to me. And he would just laugh with me, and he was just always there. He came to my first game when I was coaching in the NBA, when we played the Phoenix Suns.

When you say that you were getting into fights all the time, it sounded like you just described that you were often winning them as well. It's not like you You were good with the fights, like you were good at fighting?

I was. I was. I practiced on my brother. And Ollie, the jab. And I became a little bit a smart ass because we'd fight. And I'm like, This is red. You might want to get a tissue. There's a lot of red here, too. I was surviving with my mouth and then trying to just let people know that you're not going to be able to do that to me or to hurt me.

When did you come by your mother's support? When did it arrive, if at all?

I think my mom, after playing in the Olympics and then all the media, and I think if Dick were alive, he'd tell you, he'd ask her a question about me, and she'd say, Oh, I'm so proud of her. She's got two touch downs. He goes, She didn't play football. Well, she scored in baskets. And he was actually helping my mother. And I think she had to figure out, Mom, come to a game. See what I do. And don't tell me you shouldn't be doing that. Girls don't play sports. This is what the neighbors are saying. I don't care what the neighbors are saying. So I developed developed my Mamba mentality of, This is who I am. This is what I am. This is what I'm going to do. I don't care what you say about me because this is my ticket out. I became my mother's mother because she had nothing, like she's trying to survive. And sports was my vehicle.

Well, you became your mother's mother more literally at the end. You had to leave a job with the Sacramento Kings to take care of her. You were the first female assistant coach in the NBA.

Second. Becky was the year before me.

Okay, forgive me. The second. You were in a job that you were enjoying, or was it okay?

Loved it. Vlade Divach was my GM, and Peja Stojakowitch. I loved it. I was doing what I loved. I loved being around Rondo, and I loved being around DeMarcus and Rudy, and Seth Curry and nick Collison, Marco Bellanelli. It was good stuff for me. It gave me a chance to get to that next level, see what that next level was about. We were a little dysfunctional with George Karl, to be quite honest, in Sacramento. And my mom got sick, and I went into Vlade's office, and I said, Sir, I feel responsible for for women's basketball and what comes up behind us. Jackie Robinson comes into Major League Base. It's historic. If Larry Doby doesn't come after him, It's a tragedy. If Becky gets hired, it's historic. If Nancy doesn't get hired, it's a tragedy. It could be Nancy, it could be Sue, it could be anybody. But we can't have one offs for the optics. Growth is growth, and we have to be given opportunity and chance.

So you didn't want to quit. It hurt you to quit anything.

Because I felt responsibility, and I'm not a quitter. But in life, you say it's God, and family, and job, and then you're in it, and it's money, and money, and status, and family, and God. And I think people get that twisted when so much is being thrown at you. And now I'm not poor Nancy. By that time, I'm rich Nancy. And now what's changed? Are my priorities in line? Sometimes you have to check your own motives of what you're doing. And I needed to be with my mom. She's in Florida. She's sick. She's getting older. She's in her 80s. She's probably '88, '89. And she has nobody. So I said, Vladi, and he goes, It was great. Nancy, you go to your mother. Peja, come here. Come here, Peja. Peja walks in. He goes, Nancy, it's what Vladi said. You go to your mother. You have no regrets. And I'm like, Okay. And then he goes, I give you to your extension. I go, I don't want it to your extension for something I'm not doing. I don't want to take anything from somebody. I have to earn what... That's how my belief system. Vlade is the best.

I love that man because he took the pressure off me. So I'm with her. My mother goes, You're never with me. I go, I have 189 nights at the Marriott in Delray Beach. What are you saying? I'm not with you. The Jewish guilt, you can't win. And I'm like, I don't live here, but I'm here as much as I can be here. So I'm at home. This is 2018. I step away after Summer League in 2017, and I'm watching the NCAA tournament, flipping back and forth on the men's and watching straight out of Compton. My phone rings. It's restricted. I'm like, I'm not answering it. And then I'm like, Wait, you're a girl. You're curious, right? Fomo?

You might be missing an opportunity there of some sort.

So I'm like, go right back to being New York. I go, Yo, who's this? And he goes, Yo, it's Ice Cube. I'm like, Yo, do I call you Mr. Cube? Mr. Ice? What do I call you? He goes, Call me Cube. He goes, Nancy, I'm in a room with people who primarily look like me, and I'm a man of equality. And I said, Sir, he said, We would like for you to coach in the big three. I know about your mom. It's three months. It's two days a week. We'll schedule a game in Florida so you can see mom. He said, You'll be the first female head coach in a men's professional league. I was like, Well, that's great. I said, Sir, are you checking a box? Don't you hate when people do that to you? And he says, No, I think you can win. And I said, Why really actually wanted to hear that? And he goes, And tell your agent, You'll be the highest paid coach in the league. You'll make what Julius is making, what Michael Cooper, Gary Payton, Rick Berry, Rick Mahorn, George Gurvan. I'm like, The highest paid equality? And he goes, Yes.

I don't know about you, but I had never heard that before. Well, this is what you're going to get paid. But he does the same description, and he's making this. Well, if you want to be here, this is what you're going to get paid. So then you're like, I need to get my foot in the door. Do I push back too? Those are the life's choices. And this guy is saying, You don't have to even worry about that. Seven years later, I'm working for a black-owned business. I'm working with someone who celebrates me, doesn't tolerate me. And one of the really cool moments of my life was when we won the Championship in 2018 at Barclays Center. There's 17,000. It's sold out. The confetti is coming down, and we're on that podium that we've seen so many times. And here's Cube handing me the Championship trophy. And I just looked at him and I said, Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. You don't know how good somebody can be if you don't give them a chance.

Your story wouldn't make any sense without basketball, right? You would not have access to black culture as fluently as you do, given your upbringing as a white Jewish girl. There would be no access to that in a meaningful way, and yet it seems like your safest space. It seems like your most fluent and comfortable space.

It is 100 % comfortability for me because I get a chance to be a good leader of men, even though I coached in the W, and I loved it, would do it again, coached in the NBA. But I thrive in that environment. I'm Big Mike on the blind side. I have protective instincts, and I don't like to see underserved or minorities being treated poorly. I'm strong enough, and clearly have done this for so many years. I'm that person, and I will not let people hurt other people to the best of my ability. Two things can happen. You can hire me, you can fire me. But in my locker room, you can have your children run around the locker room. You can have your wife, your granny, your sister, your brother, your significant other. Thirty minutes before the game, I'm firm but fair, out. Don't be calling the locker room telling your husband, your tickets aren't good enough. He has a job to do. This is his job. Handle your business. Let us handle our business. These guys, this is maybe a soft landing to retirement. Maybe these kids never saw what their daddy did for a living.

Maybe these kids were not even born. But he has given you generational wealth, and I want them to see what their dad did. They're good men. I am the first one to say that the myth that black Latino, any of these different athletes, they're not good fathers. They are a hell of great fathers, and they love their kids, and they love their family. I get so tired of hearing, Well, they got 10 kids. I'm like, Cut the crap already. What generation are you talking about? So that's when Nancy, fist up, Nancy. I don't like when people do that to my guys or other guys in the league for that matter, because this is still my family. And then I get to coach my son in this family environment. And we got more Black kids coming into my home, wherever I have lived. And I look at my neighbors and I'm like, This is my family. You treat them with respect. Don't do any of that behind shady stuff. This is my family. These are good people. So I'm very protective.

You couldn't have dreamt. You couldn't have even dreamt this from what it is that you were... Even your wildest imagination couldn't have looked like what we're presently blossoming into.

What's happened in the last three years is supersonic. I mean, Kaitlyn is a dear friend of mine. I remember when Lisa Blueder, during COVID, called me and said, Hey, can you Zoom with my team? I got a player here. I think you'll like her. She plays your style and whatnot. And Paige got injured. The year before, Paige won the Nancy Lehman Pointe Girl of the Year Award, and she got hurt a couple of times, and then the ascension of Caitlin. So I got to know her through these Zooms every October. And then she played in the Championship game in Dallas three years ago. And I remember being on the phone with her and I said, Caitlin, I don't know when we're going to meet. And she had already won the award a couple of times. I said, I don't know when we're going to meet. I don't know how we're going to meet. But when we meet, it's going to be powerful. I'm sitting in the corner, here's a little locker room the corridor to get to the locker room, and she finished it doing her ESPN. They're getting ready for the Championship game against LSU.

They had beaten South Carolina. And she's walking, and she's got all this security around her, and we looked at each other. We hugged like we were hostages, long lost friends. It was so powerful. She goes, You're coming in the locker room. I go, No, I don't have a pass. And she has my hand. She goes, I'm your pass. I'm walking with her like, This is not my time. This is her time. Lisa says, Please talk to the team. I go in the locker room and I'm like, I'm just so proud of you guys. This building is full. The ratings are going to be bananas. Thank you. Thank you for what you're doing for women's sports. I was an unpaid pioneer. You all with NILs, you're paid pioneers, and I'm super happy for you. Thanks for just moving the needle. And we've had so many of these moments where I've got a chance... She's nice. She'll text me. She goes, My goat. I go, Stop calling me a farm animal. I'm goofy with her like I'm goofy with you.

Your need for protection, though, did it affect or damage or end your relationship with Sheryl Swoops? That you were protecting or defending Kaitlyn Clarke?

It's a great question. I was very protective of Sheryl throughout her career. Very, very close. Went with her to her first ESPYs in '93 after they won the national championship. I'm on the treadmill that morning, and she's trending on all different stations, and it pops up, and I'm listening to it, and I'm like, wow. So I picked up the phone, and I called her. Now, she disputes this, but I did a screenshot to let her know the call happened. I said, Hey, I'm calling as your friend, as your sister. She's not 25 years old. She's not a 50-year senior, and she doesn't take 40 shots a game. I said, Your numbers are wrong. She said to me, Look, I can have my own opinion. I go, Absolutely, you can have your opinion, but just get your numbers right. They're going to fact-check you, and you can play it off. You can me a copa. I was wrong. And just take it on you, and you're the hero of the story, but she dug in. And then we got into it. And I don't want to get into it with anybody, but it became so much larger than life.

I would do this for Angel Reece, who I love. I would do this for Asia Wilson, who doesn't need me. But our generation, we have to celebrate this generation.

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Welcome to South Beach Sessions. We've got someone with us today. She's unrivaled in a lot of different ways. She wins, right? She's a four-time WNBA All-Star. She's a two-time Olympic gold medalist. She's an NCAA champion, and she just won one-on-one in Unrivaled, a league she created. Nafisa Collier with us. Thank you for being with us. A league she created. I don't know in the list of things that I just said what you're proudest of, but I'll give you the chance to answer for yourself. And thank you for joining us.

Yeah, thanks for having me. That's definitely something I'm proud of, just because obviously all the work that's gone into it, years of just planning this, and Stuey and I, just from having it be a seed of an to having it turn into an entire league, it's just like a crazy thought, something I never would have thought or dreamed of, growing up or in college or even a couple of years ago. So it's been really cool to see the process of that.

Well, how did it come together? This is with your husband, Alex. That must present its own set of challenges.

Yeah. Well, Alex is... I mean, he's like one of the smartest business people ever that I've ever met. So he actually had a business background before that. But from Studio and I's side, we both I had been in the league for several years by the time we started thinking of this. And through that, you just see the holes of what's working, what's not. And for a lot of WMBA players, they've been having to go overseas for years to supplement the income because we make money for six months out of the year. So with that, a lot of people don't realize that we make most of our money off the court. So 90% of the money I make is off the court. And so you have to be able to activate with brands. Brand building is a huge part of our business. When you're overseas, you're essentially going dark for six months out of the year. So You can't activate with the brands. You're losing money. You're away from your family, out of your home country, missing holidays. Then on the flip side, you still have to get better at basketball. Staying at home and training is not the same as playing.

Through all those things, we came up with Unrivaled. Then also just the explosion that is happening in women's sports right now. You see it with the college game and how the WMBA and just all sports are exploding. And it feels like everyone is capitalizing off of that, except for the people, the women who are playing. And so that's where we really wanted to get into the salaries that we're paying the players and having equity in the league, really creating that generational wealth.

How old were you when you realized you were really, really good?

I would probably say eighth grade because I got my first college scholarship then, and that was before they were really... They do it a little bit more now. So I think that was it. And I almost signed on the spot. But my dad's the one that pulled me, my mom off the ledge. He's like, you're 14.

You're almost signed? Who was sending it, though?

Who was sending? Mizzou. Because I was from Missouri. And I was like, Yes, I'm ready to sign. He's like, You're 14 years old. Let's hold on a little bit. And so he was the voice of reason through that.

Did you find yourself along the path then start gaining confidence right there? Eighth grade is when that's happening? Does it start pretty immediately?

No. I've honestly always been blessed with really great coaches. So my freshman year of high school, I went to Jeff City High School before I moved to my other school. And I was actually the point guard there. And he was a really tough coach. He was one of those coaches, exactly like Gina, like a yeller, really tough, expects a lot from you. And so when you're with coaches like that, they never let your head get too big. They're always pushing you to be better, and he did. And so it wasn't like I went in there thinking, I'm the best player in the world.

If people around here were being honest, they would tell you, I often am lamenting that I wish I were a better leader. I wish I knew more about leadership. You just mentioned leadership. When did you start to become one of those?

I would say when I got to Minnesota, probably. I mean, I tried in college a little bit, but I'm not a big... Like, vocally, I was not a leader. I think I was... I try to lead by example. I always try to be the hardest worker and show that way, but I was really uncomfortable with confrontation. So holding people accountable, you have to be confrontational. And so I feel like I started building the vocal side of it more when I was in Minnesota, because again, Sylvia Fowels was my vet, and her and our coach knew she was retiring soon. So they set me up for that a couple of years before that happened, saying, You're going to be in this leadership role. We need you to start working on this, this, and this. Just the first step of whatever is admitting you have a problem, just acknowledging in those situations that, okay, this is somewhere I can grow. This is somewhere where I can say something. And just naturally, I got more and more confident in that.

Have gotten good at confrontation?

I wouldn't say good. It's not natural to me. So it's something I will always have to work on, but I'm definitely way better than I used to be.

But how do you process it in terms of awareness? Because now you're not emotionally getting into a fight with a teammate. You're purposefully getting into a fight with a teammate, correct?

Yeah. Well, I think still, that is not my confrontation style. The word is confrontational, but I'm not confrontational about it. I try to come with it from a point of reason. So see why you're thinking that way and try to meet you where you're at. So I try to talk through in that way. Wait a minute.

So you're just being direct. That's not confrontational.

Yeah. Direct.

Confrontational is going and trying to, I don't need to explain this to you, but creating whatever friction or fuel there is in like, let me see if I can consciously instigate so that this person is better doing whatever I have to do to make this person better.

Yeah. Not my leadership style still. Confrontation is the wrong word then. I feel like I'm more direct. If I see a problem, I'll say it, but I'm not trying to get it where you're riled up and in a fight. I'm trying to reason with you.

And you've discovered that you are a good leader? What is it that's giving you the understanding that you are a good leader?

I hope I'm a good leader. I try to be a good leader for my team. I think a sign is that I think my team has respect me and they listen me when I talk. I think that's a sign of a good leader is when you say something, they actively try to do what you're saying.

We were talking before we started, though, and I'm not going to say you apologize for being a soft talker, but you did admit that on the court, you have to sermon an entirely different voice than your voice in order to be heard above the crowd, in order to what? Yeah.

I don't know what it is. I think just the level that my voice is at naturally, it's hard to hear in loud situations. So I have to make it usually lower, but sometimes higher. So it breaks above or below what the noise is.

So that you can be heard by your teammates in critical moments.

Yeah, especially on the court. This is just communication stuff. That a screen is coming so they don't get cracked or what we're doing on offense or defense.

The first thing you have to do is lower your voice an octave upon recognition to change your natural cadence. So a lot of things in basketball by you have had to be learned in order in order to successfully navigate the place that represents what I imagine is the most confident version of you we've ever seen. Yes?

Yeah, for sure. I think the vocal side is definitely the most. Growing up, I would say I was pretty shy. I wasn't a really vocal person. And that started in college, where, of course, they say, The thing you have to do on defense, you have to talk, talk, talk. It was exhausting for me to talk. Now it's so natural. I've been doing it for years, obviously. But that was so exhausting that you have to be always talking and calling out on defense and cheering for your team. I couldn't think of anything worse. Exhausting. It was exhausting, truly. Emotionally draining. Yes. When I'm already physically so tired and then I have to talk the whole time.

Because why? What is happening there that would make that so exhausting?

I think it's because... I mean, honestly, I don't know. I wasn't used to it. I never had to do it really before.

But it's four. So it's not authentic. It's not natural. It wasn't. It's something that has to be learned, conscious, and get to hear, but it's not any It's so natural.

Now it is. When I was learning it, it wasn't. Now it is so natural. I don't even think twice about it. In fact, if you don't do it, it's like a faux pas. It's bad. But before, I was like, I have to talk again. We've been talking this whole time. Don't you know the screen's coming? You can't see them. So it was hard at first.

Did anyone ever say to you, Hey, I can't hear you. You're talking too low, or you just learned over time. I've got to go deeper.

No, it was because I was screaming. I was yelling as loud as I could, and they're like, We can't hear you. I'm like, I don't I don't know what else I need to do. So I started making my voice higher or lower, and they could hear me.

Would you be kind enough? Not that you're a parrot, but would you be kind enough to show me what the octave changes are between high and-Oh, gosh. I don't know if you-in between. I just want to see what the difference is so that I can understand it between high and low, unless that makes you uncomfortable. I don't want to make you uncomfortable.

So usually, I'd be like, Screen, but especially when I'm having to go really fast, my voice goes higher, so I'm like, Screen. So it's really loud like that. Or I'm We're going to trap. We're trapping. Try to make it a little lower. So just whatever it is, whatever my normal voice isn't, try to make it different so they can hear.

You mentioned unrivaled to having amenities that are thought of by people who have experienced things that are needed to be great professionally. You have a child care center, right? That's one of the things that you have put in place. What are some of the other things that you have tried to do, at least in part because of your experiences of having them come while you came up?

Yeah. So we went over a list of must haves. So you have to have a weight room, which actually not everybody has. You have to have a training room. We have to have... Those are just things that you have to have. Okay, what can we make those? How can we elevate those? So we got the best of all the equipment in the weight room. We got the best of all the equipment in the training room where we don't have the stuff in the W, like these equipments that we're using. And then it's like, Okay, we have our necessities. Now, what we just want just to make the experience better. So we have a sauna, we have an aesthetician room, we have a makeup room, we have hot and cold tubs, which that's more of a necessity. But just stuff like that where it's not a necessity, but it's nice to have. It makes the experience nice. We have a masseuse on call every week or every day. And so things that will elevate the experience in that way, where it's like, we want to make this better than what we've had. It's not just meeting our needs.

We want to make a professional experience where you have things that are just nice to have, too.

Are you able to concentrate on just your basketball portion of it and Alex and others can handle the business, or do you have to do all of the roles?

I don't have to do all the roles, but I definitely am intermingling with things. When I'm in the facility and with my team, I definitely try to focus on basketball, but then you'll have players come up to you and be like, We want this, or, Can this happen? Or, What's going What's going on with this? And so you step into that role. And then at the end of the day, Alex tells me everything that goes on on the business side. And then if I have an opinion about something, then you step into that role. So there's definitely some intermingling, but I try to keep when I'm there, I'm with my team, I'm locked in.

Well, when you say, though, that it's been years in the making, I don't know what it's like to work with your partner on something this intertwined. What are the complications in that? And what are the fulfillments? Yeah.

We have a lot of practice because, like I said, he was my trainer for several years before we started dating. And so when we transitioned over to dating, it was really hard to work together. We were questioning, should I get a new trainer? Just because it's hard to switch that off where we're partners, but you're telling me what to do, and you're critiquing me when I'm playing. And then all of a sudden, I think you have an attitude, you think I have an attitude. It's hard to listen. So we had to have a conversation where when we step on the court, this is now teacher-student environment. You need to listen to me. I won't be getting an attitude if I think you're not listening. Whatever it is, set that aside. And once we did that, it was great. So you have to establish those boundaries. So we had some practice in that a little bit. And then once it switched over to unrivaled, it was just really collaborative because I defer to him on the business side. He knows all the business stuff, and he differs to me on the player experience side because I know that.

So I think we just did a really great job of trusting each other in our different categories, and then you come together to create the best product.

How did it come to be that the trainer relationship blossomed into romance?

It was my junior year at Yukon, and Alex was training a couple of the players on the Knicks, so he was in New York a lot, and I was struggling my junior year. And so he would come down to help me train. I'm like, I need to get some reps in because I'm not feeling good. So we'd come down to train, and it's a three-hour drive. So we would hang out for a little bit after. We'd go to or just hang out and talk about the season stuff. I guess it just naturally progressed.

Okay, but I'm going to need a little bit more information here about how is it that it comes to be that you have, I wasn't thinking about this at all this way before, and now he's going to be the father of my children.

There are definitely some years between that. It seems that there are some holes in your story right now in terms of how it is that you're telling me how we get from, he's pushing you around, he's training you out.

First of all, how does he become your trainer? Let's start there.

So the first time I met him was right before I left for Yukon, and I had a different trainer. And one of my friends was just like, I'm going to this workout with this guy from the company they were with, who was called Pure Sweat. I'm going to Pure Sweat. We're going to work out. Do you want to just join me for this workout? So that's technically the first time I met him. I was like, Oh, I actually really like what he's doing. And then I go to college. I have that horrible year. I'm like, I need to get better in this offseason. I knew I wanted to move on from my other trainer. He was starting to transition out of training. Alex was the only person I knew. And I'm like, I really liked what he was doing. And so that's how he became my trainer. Like I said, we worked together for three years doing that. And then he went to New York And I don't know, I just thought he was really cute. And we were spending a lot of time together and you get to know people more that way. It's not like I'm only seeing you on the court more.

No, I get to see your personality more. I could tell he was getting flirty, too. And I think he just He asked me out on a date one day. We went to dinner. He's not like he ever asked me to be his girlfriend. We just started hanging out a lot after that. And I just... I think the first title we had was Engaged because I don't know if he ever asked me to be his girlfriend.

Super It's been a super interesting time to be with you, too, though, right? Those three years. He's got a pretty unique access to you now are going to start flourishing into the professional person that you've become.

Yeah. I would say so. And he had a lot of experience. He worked with a lot of NBA players, so he saw the progression of that. For example, he worked with Trey Young since he was in high school. So you see the levels of it. Obviously, They accelerate a lot faster. They don't go through college the same way. It was cool to lean on his expertise in that, too, because I had no idea what to expect. I didn't have any WMBA friends. Just knowing what that process looks like, being able He knows what agents you're supposed to look for in an agent, how deals are supposed to be done. So leaning on his expertise in that, too.

When you're coming up, your dreams look like what? Have you already exceeded them?

I never had a dream to be a WMBA player, so I would say yes. When I was little, I wanted to be a teacher, and then I wanted to be a doctor, and then I wanted to be a hair stylist, so I love playing with hair. I think I just accidentally fell into professional basketball. I just love playing sports. I had a pick of sports to stick with when I was in high school, and I'm like, I'm the best at basketball. I'll stick with basketball. It turned into like, okay, I want to get my school paid for. And then I get to go to college. I'm like, oh, this is the best school. And then once you get there, I'm like, okay, I have a chance to be a professional athlete. So it just took it one step at a time. It's not like my ultimate goal is to be a WMBA player.

But when you've done goals and stuff, have you met most of them?

I've met a lot, but not all. I mean, going to my rookie year, I had a goal to be Rookie of the Year because there's just so much happening that year. I mean, you're going from college to a new team, new city, new everything.

You scored 27 points in your first game.

I know. Well, that's why I'm like, I need something to focus me. I want to be Rookie of the Year, and I had a horrible preseason, actually. I think I had four points between both the games, and I felt like how I did my freshman year at college. But like, Luckily, I'd been there before I was able to recognize it. I'm like, I'm never feeling that way again. So I came out my first game. I'm like, I don't care. I'm just going to play basketball, and I never looked back in that sense.

So this period of anxiety lasted a couple of games? Yeah. And you recognized it. Yeah. You recognize the feeling, whatever it was, the feeling of the water rising in the room.

Yeah. I was feeling not confident because it was essentially the same situation. You're going in where everyone's better than you again. They have more experience. You're the freshman again. And it's a new system, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I'm just playing not confidently. And that's the feeling I don't like, is not being confident in what you're doing. It makes you second guess everything. It's the worst feeling. And so I recognize this, what was happening. I'm like, I'm not doing a whole another season like this.

What is the worst of the professional experiences that you have had? Would that represent the greatest of the professional hardships? Because you've had a lot of success. You've had a lot of success early. There's not a lot of evidence anyone can spot of these anxieties and these doubts you speak of.

Is that the worst mentally that I've been since I was struggling?

You said professionally, you had this period of doubt that lasted a couple of preseasonal amazing games, and then you scored 27 in your first one. And I don't know that you've probably done a lot of doubt since.

No, I mean, I do. Just like everyone, I think it comes and goes. But for me, being able to recognize it is great for me because I feel myself, especially you get that midseason slump where you're not in the gym the same because you're tired, you're going from game to game, you're not getting in the same rep. So you feel less confident. When you don't study for a test, you go in, you're anxious because you don't know anything. When you When you're ready, you go in, I feel great. So midseason where it's like you're just in the dead of everything, you're not practicing as much, I don't feel as confident. And I'm able to recognize that. And then I'm like, okay, I need to get in reps in. So I'm not feeling this way in the game because I'll have a game where I'm hesitating before I shoot or I'm like, should I? And that's when I'm in my worst spot is when, honestly, when I'm thinking like that. And so, yeah, just making sure that I'm aware of when I'm feeling that way.

Well, is this what you're referencing when you say 80% of the game is mental? What are the things that you're talking about when you say? Because you don't really believe that most of the WNBA players have your skillset, right? Or most of the top six picks in any draft have exactly your skillset? Or do you believe they do have that skillset and what you is a mental advantage?

I honestly think it's both. I recognize I'm a very skilled athlete. I'm a very skilled athlete. Can I run the fastest? No. Can I jump the fastest? No. Can I do all these things? No. I'm not the best at any of those. I think I worked really hard on my footwork. I think my footwork is one of the best in the league for sure. But mentally, I believe I'm the best when I'm out there. When I get to my certain spots, I know I'm going to score. And I think you see that in a lot of players. I think Trey is a great example of that. Is he the best at anything? No. But he has so much confidence in himself. It makes him one of the best players in the league. He's able to do incredible things, not because of his talent. He is very talented, but because he has so much belief in himself. And I think you see that with other players like Ben Simmons, who is so talented, but his mental is like he's come out and said he struggles really hard mentally with his confidence in himself, and he's not able to do the things that he should be able to do.

So I really believe that sports is 80/20, mental and physical.

And you feel like you're sturdy there, right? If I say to you, what is your greater advantage? Your mental or your footwork?

I would say my mental.

When you speak of your footwork, can you explain to people? This is where I say, what's the cost of that? It's such a meticulous thing that you have to be taking care of so specifically until it becomes totally natural now. But what was the cost of getting your game that sculpted? Yeah.

To me, it wasn't a cost. To me, it was great because the foundation of it was that sophomore, like that freshman summer, going to my sophomore year of college, where I was just so determined to not feel like shit anymore when I played that I wanted to be in the gym. I was doing two days every single day. I would do skill work in the morning, I would shoot in the afternoon, every single day. And so learning that. And then when you start seeing the reps go down and it feels good. You're playing pickup, you're playing one on one, I'm like, I am scoring every single time. It builds your confidence and after that, it becomes natural in the way that you add it to your game. But you have to do so many reps for things to become second nature.

How do you do losing? I remember in Miami when LeBron James was the centerpiece of losing, where it looked like at the end, five minutes left with Dallas, he's swinging the ball in the perimeter because he doesn't want to have the ball anymore. He described himself as He passed away, where he goes away for a month and just stews in his misery. What was the losing to the liberty like?

Yeah, it was awful. I felt a lot of anger. I've not been quiet about how I felt about the final. So I was riding on anger for a really long time. And it's still something that I used to motivate myself even now. I feel like it has pushed me to be honestly a better player because in the way I play, I feel like I never want to be in that situation again where I'm having to complain about the rest, which everyone is saying. I want it to be where we're winning by so much. It doesn't matter what the refs are calling. And so I think it's changed my mindset and the way that I see the game, honestly. And it's made me a better player because of it.

Angry for how long? Anger is just information. So what is it that you're doing with this anger and how long are you stewing in it?

I think it's changed my mentality, honestly. It's made me more mentally strong. And so So during the games, I feel like sometimes I would Coast a little bit where you have quarters or a couple of minutes where you're like, you don't need to be involved. And you're like LeBron at the end of the game, like swinging the ball, stuff like that. Now I just feel super locked in. I want to make sure that I'm contributing to the team. It doesn't even have to be scoring, but I need to be going out there and I need to be playing great defense. I need to be getting rebounds, whatever it is, where I'm locked in. And I would just say it just gave me an edge to when I play and how I play.

How often do you play angry?

Honestly, I feel more and more. Just because in the Jordan documentary, he's like, I took that personally. I feel like it's easy to find little things that you take personally, and it makes you play with an edge. So I don't know. You just find little stuff that pisses you off. And I play better when I'm mad because it makes me really focused.

I thought it was better to keep the emotion out of it. You You found a governor? Give me some of the stuff people are doing to piss you off. Who's pissing you off? How are they doing it?

I don't like other people to see that I'm mad. So that is something that I still stick to. It's like, I don't want you to know I'm mad, but I need to use it as fuel for myself. I mean, just people are chirping or they're fouling you or they're complaining about something saying, Oh, that wasn't a foul, or whatever it is, you can find anything to get mad about.

That's nice, though. But stoicism. You're not going to let them- I don't want you to know. You're not going to let them have the pleasure of knowing.

I'm just going to quietly stool, yeah.

The pleasure of knowing that then they've won. You can't let them have that. You just have to let them give you just enough fuel so you use it as rage to eat their face.

Yes, absolutely.

Okay. I'm glad I articulated it for you that way. You won the one-on-one of Unrivaled, and you are determined how much to win, to bring the Lunar Owls the title so that you can be co founder, so you can be greedy about it. So you can be champion of one on one, created the league, and also won the team title.

Yeah, I want to be super greedy about it. And also we're working our butts off. We are in the weight room every single day, all five of us. We are in the training room every single day, all five of us, taking care of our bodies, the way that we stay locked into practice. We are making it so there's no competition. We We want it to be where we're winning every single game. We're mad that we lost one game. Especially when there's 50 bands on the line for the winner, we're taking it really seriously. We want to win.

Where does this rank in terms of community feeling that you've had with five players before? Because nobody can really understand unless you've done it what those bonds are like.

I would definitely compare this more to college, because we're just in such a confined space. Of us. And there's only five of us. So there's not like you have cliques that can form on the team. We're so small already. We are our own clique. And just the adversity of going through this together. There's a huge target on your back. Everyone thinks whatever they do about your team because you're winning so much. And everyone is happy when you lose that one game. It's like their Super Bowl when you lose. So it brings you closer together. So it's been really fun. And this team is so competitive. It's been really fun to be a part of.

How about the fulfillment involved in providing something that might one day be bought by the WNBA or just the fulfillment of these people having employment because of something you made? How much of that are you getting daily?

I don't know that I feel fulfilled yet because there's still so much we want to do. There's a lot more that we want to do. And I think we've done amazing for our inaugural season, and I think we're changing the landscape of women's sports. You see it rising. Overseas contracts are going up, domestic league contracts are going up. We're in our CBA for the WNBA. And so I think I'll feel fulfilled When we see those contracts change and see unrival keep going and our contracts keep going up here and just changing what it means to be a woman's athlete.

Are you hard on yourself?

I would say yes. I think all professional. I think people at the top, anyone at the top of anything is hard on themselves. That's how you get there.

I'd like to be better. It's something I'm always fighting with, of being more forgiving, more gentle with myself. But you're saying it's a job requirement.

I mean, I think it's how you get to where you are. If you're, and this is probably a toxic take, but if you're so forgiving with yourself, how are you going to push yourself to be better? And how are you going to push yourself to be the greatest at something and be the best if you're not expecting that of yourself?

Do you have a reason? Can you tie to roots? Why do you want to be the best? Why is it so important? Where is all of that coming from? I would assume you're surrounded by people who would allege that they want the same thing. Yeah. And you would notice they don't want it quite as much as I do. Yeah.

Honestly, I think just... I feel like it's getting greedy, honestly. Especially because I am nationally gifted. So I have naturally been better from a younger age. I was like, I saw that. And so you get used to that feeling. And then you get people who are more talented. And you're like, well, I want that feeling back, so I have to work harder. And then you get to the next step and people are more talented. And it's Running away from that feeling of I'm not the best anymore. And so I think that's probably what it is, honestly.

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