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The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by PayPal. We are also presented by the Ringer Podcast Network, where it is From Hell Month on the rewatchables. We put up Hand That Rocks the Cradle this week. I think we're putting up Domestic Disturbance, The Good Son, and Pacific Heights all before the end of June because this is from Hell Month. So you have all that to look forward to. All those movies are on Netflix, by the way, as well. I'm gonna be on Netflix on Sunday night with Zach Lowe. We might have a mystery third with us as well. So probably, probably 5:00 PM, 6:00 PM ET range. We'll be going live for an hour and a half getting you ready for a big NBA week that's coming. Speaking of, Tim Legler is coming up in one second and we're gonna be talking about the draft, what we learned from the finals, how does that help team building, predictions, all kinds of things.
And then— Yeah.
I've loved the World Cup. I've watched a ton of it. So I made Anthony DiBundo come on and we talked about, uh, USA's semifinals chances, final 8 chances, some sort of chances. Things are better. Things are optimistic. A huge game coming on Friday. Uh, I hope you're gonna be out at a bar or somewhere fun watching it. But, uh, so we talked to DiBundo and that is the podcast. We're gonna take a break. Pearl Jam and then Tim Legler. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by PayPal. You know a clutch move when you see one. A no-look pass, a buzzer beater, a big steal. Well, imagine if your wallet could pull off moves like that. That, my friends, is PayPal. Right now you can find offers from hundreds of brands like Sony, Allbirds, and Viater, and save offers before you check out. Earn unlimited rewards. Plus you can add those rewards on top of credit card points, Now that is clutch. Download the PayPal app today. Save those offers. Start scoring rewards. Terms and exclusions apply. See paypal.com/rewardsterms. Credit card points subject to issuers' terms and conditions. Alright, so we're recording. It is Thursday afternoon, late Pacific time.
Tim Legler is here. He did not join us during the Finals because he was calling the Finals and we were coming live after every Finals game. I wanna— what's— I wanna do some draft NBA stuff, and then at the end of this, I wanna talk about what it was like to be there for such a crazy series. I was so excited today. I read that you're involved with the NBA draft this year for ESPN. I had this whole plan for stuff to talk about. I didn't know we were gonna be able to— I didn't know you were prepped for the draft. This is unbelievable.
Well, they— listen, to be full disclosure, I'm not fully. I still have a few days to get there because this was kind of also a late-in-the-game add for me.
Yeah.
To be part of it, I mean, it's fun, it's exciting, but at the same time, yeah, like, there's a lot to acclimate yourself with. And I've been doing nothing, honestly, over the last couple days but watching a lot of film on a lot of guys. Just guys some I knew, seen enough of, kind of had a feel, but even those guys, you know, to really get into the weeds, you need to see more film on guys. And then there was a bunch of other dudes when you start getting down, you know, anywhere from 10 through 30, 'cause I'm just doing the first night, so—
Yeah.
I'll be involved with the first round. So, like, you got a lot of catch-up to do. To do. So I'm kind of in the midst of doing that more or less.
I did the draft 2 years and I had an incredible amount of fun just diving a half hour on each guy and then basically making a decision on how I felt. And I remember one of the, one of the drafts I had Giannis and I'm like, I don't know, man, he looks, he looks pretty good, but it looked like he was playing against 13-year-olds.
So I, I, you know, you know what, I'm gonna tell you something though. Here's, here's the truth. Like, you know, we, the new thing, and I don't think this always was the case, but the new thing is with the draft is like the player comps.
Yep.
Right? So drop a player name, and it's funny because, and I'm looking, and, and so in my research and in my film work, and I'm pulling different stuff up, and you're seeing different player comps dropped by whatever source— I'm not going to get into those, but whatever the source may be— and, and I'm just like, man, I don't like these. I don't like the comps because I feel like I really feel like you're either, as an analyst, you're either going way out on a limb.
Yeah.
Or like, damn, man, that's a big reach because we have, you have no idea ultimately how a guy is gonna swim at the next level. And a lot, there's a lot that goes into that, man. Like fit early, just heart, work ethic, handling pressure, maturity. And like you can do all the homework you want. You don't know, man, until those guys put an NBA uniform on. So some of these comps, I'm going, wow, Okay, that's a big bite. But then there's other guys I'll be like, oh, that's not fair enough to the guy. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think the comp is enough. So, and I feel like either way, 5 years from now, like, you set yourself up to just get absolutely taken apart. Like, if you, if you, if you put a comp out there of some guy that's like a perennial all-star and dude's bust, like, you're gonna hear about that in a big way down the road. So I'm not a big fan of the comps. So I'm trying, I'm just, I look at these guys.
I have some bad news for you. All right. I was the one— my draft, that was my big idea for the 2013 draft to do the players comps. I'm Dr. Oppenheimer of this whole thing.
Wait, are you the guy?
I was, I was, I was Dr. That was my big idea. I was like, each player will do a comp of whatever. And then the second year I did it, we blew it out even further.
And so you're that guy with the chill, like Oppenheimer who stares off Oppenheimer in the movie, like he stares off and he's seen math theorems and all that stuff. Yeah. You're seeing You're seeing former players like just bouncing around in your head.
I thought it would be a good way for the audience to understand what they were doing, but it's, and we do it, we did it for the Grantland Draft Guide. We do it for the Ringer Draft Guide. It's, it's really hard 'cause if you do the wrong comp or you, you don't put enough thought into it, it can go as sideways as possible.
Have you changed your opinion then on, on, on like even giving the comps?
Like, you know where I've gone?
Unless it's just blatantly obvious.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I rarely do, it's almost like there's pieces of different guys, right? Like when I watch Caleb Wilson and I just, his, you can watch 20 minutes of him on YouTube and think he's gonna be one of the best 15-pointers of all time. Like just see the way it's edited, you're like, oh my God, this guy's Giannis crossed with Bam, you know? And the problem with this stuff is you're seeing like the absolute, best of the best. It's a greatest hits of whatever the college season was, which is why— That's just, yeah. You have to go watch like—
Well, that's true.
You have to watch the last 5 minutes of different games. Like to really do this correctly, you gotta see them in different pressure situations.
That's a great point. And I also, the other thing is like, so the guys that you're comparing 'em to when they get the comp, that's that guy at his very best. And you're going, okay, with these guys, most of these guys are 19.
Right.
Like, man, you know, so whatever. If there's some things that are clearly obvious with their physical profile and maybe in addition to like sort of like stylistically, okay. But like, that's the problem I have is you start throwing out guys that are, you know, every year an All-Star, Hall of Famer, All-League players from the past. I'm like, man, that's a lot for a dude that's 19. When you just go back and look at the last 15 years of the draft, there's a lot of dudes that were picked in the top 10 and that you got that had all kinds of comps from all-star players from the past.
Yeah.
And a lot of those guys weren't even in the league in 3 or 4 years.
With all that said, if you watch Darren Peterson's high school tape, he kind of looks like Kobe. Like, those are the comps where you're like, hey, kind of looks like Kobe. Like, like, that's— I don't know. Is that a player comp or is that just what my eyes are telling me? I, uh, I, I have gravitated, I've been fascinated by the draft my whole life and even doing it those couple years was really helpful. But I've landed at the point I really value what I just watched in the playoffs when I think toward the draft. And that's where I've landed the last couple years. And I feel like there's basically like 3 buckets of players and I want to figure out like it, like just the pure studs, right? The, the first 4 guys in this draft. I think Flag was like this. Dylan Harper was like, just like these guys are studs, they're gonna make it. They're gonna be at the very least starters. They have all NBA potential. Like that's a bucket. And then I think the next group for me is playoff guys. And playoff guys to me means wings that can defend and hit threes and not hurt you offensively, but can switch on defense and just can fit in a series.
Bigs who can defend the rim and rebound and maybe even stretch the floor a little, and then guards that can give you offense and not kill you. Basically those 3 buckets as playoff guys. And if you look at the draft last year, Murray Boyles, I think went, where'd he go, 9 or 10?
Yeah, 10th, I think.
Maybe 10th. Coward went 9th. Carter Bryant, who I thought actually could have played probably a little more, San Antonio, 14th. But we're always taking these guards ahead of these guys. And sometimes I wonder like, Is this just the undervalue over and over again every year? These guys that we know are gonna be playoff guys and yet they always go 3, 4, 5 picks too late.
Yeah, no, I think it's a good point. I also think like Carter Bryant's a fascinating guy to me and I went, you go back to like last summer, first time I saw him, had seen a lot of film, then I called his first game in Vegas.
Yeah.
In summer league. And I was like, this guy was, he was so much more athletic than everybody else out there to me. Yeah. And he's so rangy and bouncy and like hyper-energized. And I'm like, man, this is the type of dude, if he figures out how to shoot a little bit, this is the type of guy that you look at down the road 4 or 5 years as like an elite, elite perimeter defender. And I, I still think he's got a chance to get there. And, and the good news for him, his perimeter shooting really came a long way this year.
Yeah.
Now, you know, and Mitch Johnson clearly like shrunk trust a little bit once they got deeper into the postseason. And look, he did play him the one, the one game we called, you know, against Jalen, 3 straight possessions and Jalen Brunson just went right into the paint and just bodied him up and footworked him to death and made 3 straight buckets. And it was demoralizing probably.
Yeah.
For this young kid. But look, my point is that he's another dude that we didn't talk much about 'cause we were spending so much time on Harper. This is another guy they got that's going to be a big part of their future. There's no question in my mind.
Yeah, and that's a guy that in a playoff series, he makes sense to me. It's clearly like a 4, he could guard different positions. So when I look at like Rez Johnson on Michigan and he's all over the place, right? Like he's in our draft guide, he's 13. I've seen him in mock drafts, he's like 10 to 14. And yet he's the kind of guy like, okay, so you'll take him at 12 and you'll be like, of course, of course they, of course they took him. That's gonna be who it is. But let's, Let's do— we can talk about some of the neat stuff later. The top 4 is so much fun, and I'm always a big take the guy that you think is the best guy. Like, figure it out. You have months and months to study these guys, how they would fit in with your team. Just go out on a limb and take your guy. This is one of the only times I ever remember looking at a top 4 like this and thinking I'd kind of be okay trading down to 4. Like if I was Utah at 2 and I couldn't decide, it's like I might be okay moving backwards 2 spots and getting even more stuff if somebody was super excited about Peterson.
But who's your favorite out of these 4?
Dubonca is my guy. Dubonca's the guy. I believe that. I think that'll be the pick. That should be the pick. I think what we're hoping for, you know, is that he's enthused about the situation. I mean, he's hard to tell. He's very stoic.
Yeah.
He actually came into the green room in, um, I think we're in San Antonio, uh, I don't remember what game during the Finals. He happened to be there that day. They brought him in. I think his dad, um, they came in and we met him and talked to him a little bit. And I was joking, I'm like, hey man, I'd give you good restaurants in Washington, but it's been, you know, 30 years since I played there, 26 years, right? So I think they've probably changed. We had kind of had a joke about it. He's a very serious guy, man, you know. And I'm just like, maybe that's just kind of how he's wired, because I know a lot of people read into you know, that when the lottery happened and the Wizards got the first pick and he was there and they showed him and he just looked so serious, borderline unhappy. And I just was like, man, let's just give him some— let's just give him a little bit of slack here, right? This is overwhelming to him. He has now gone from, you know, in the last 2 years, you think about you're trying to find your way as a high school player, hitting the AAU circuit, climbing the charts, and now you're the number 1 pick, a presumptive number 1 pick in the draft.
You know, going to a team that's had, you know, hasn't won a lot in a long time. It's a lot to process, and maybe people are viewing you a certain way. So I'm not going to read into that. He's the guy because I think his, his— what he could do from a skill standpoint combined with the physicality that he brings and some of those metrics, that combination and versatility in his game, I feel like he's got a greater margin to find his lane. because I'm not sure exactly what ultimately his ceiling is, but I think he does kind of like everything well. And he's very athletic and he's strong and he's tough and he seems serious about this. He's a worker. He looks like a guy to me that like, you go, okay, we bring him in because we think he's the best guy. Not exactly sure how we're gonna plug him in, how we're gonna use him, what his ultimate strength is primarily early offensively. Doesn't matter because there's a lot to work with.
Yeah.
I think for me, combination of size, the toughness, athleticism with the skillset, I think this is the right pick.
I landed there early February. I watched these guys for a while and at some point it was like, what are we doing? He's gotta be the first pick. Especially 'cause—
Yeah.
You don't know what his body's gonna look like 5 years from now. You know, the—
Right.
He already looks like he's 26. And you think about,— you know, some of the guys like the Tatum, Jaylen Brown, guys like that, how they grew into these adult bodies by the time they're 25, 26, 27. Like the muscle he's gonna put on, he can play either position. By the way, Washington's taking him. That's, that's how this is playing out. They're gonna take him. And I, I don't— For sure.
And he joins a group. I mean, look at, look at their roster and the number of like top 10 picks on their roster. They've got a lot of lottery picks there.
Fits in with what they have.
Developing nicely. He does. And the one thing they don't have though, they do not have a face of the franchise type of guy. They don't. They've got some, some former number one pick or former lottery picks. And, and like Sarbi, the top of the list for me, like he's grown tremendously. I really like his game. But this, this guy is different because of the nature of the position. This is a guy that you could put the ball in his hands in the open floor, in the half court. He can go get his own against guys. That's a lot harder for a guy as, as tall as Alex Saro, who's never gonna have like that type of handle to just go break a guy down. Duboncic can do it. So they don't have this level of franchise guy, even though they've got some really nice young players. Trey Johnson was a guy I loved last year. Guy's a walking bucket.
Yeah.
But they don't have this. This is a different level. A guy that with that kind of size, that could play off the dribble, shoot it, go get his own and break guys down. They, they don't have that combination.
And has had a big spotlight on him for a while. It's the right pick. You know, there's a piece of me wonders if Boozer also was the right pick for them. And we always talk with the draft that you always hear like floor, ceiling, floor, ceiling, every high floor, low floor, high ceiling, lower ceiling. And Boozer seems like he has both. A high floor but also potentially a high ceiling with his IQ. And he's just gonna produce.
He's been— I like that. I like that way when you put it that way, Bill, because we've seen too many guys in the playoffs, particularly the separation between floor and ceiling, the variance between floor and ceiling.
I don't feel like there's variance with him. Yeah. And the thing I didn't like about him, he didn't have that little foul line jumper. I felt like he would be bowling his way to the basket over and over again when he really wanted to get points, which he could in college. And then the pros, you're not gonna do that in the same way. But he's the, this is the 19-year-old version of him. You know, when you think like he's these guys, I think he has the competitiveness and the work ethic. I think AJ has it. I think Caleb Wilson definitely has it.
This was a comp, by the way, I did like, can I, can I tell you the comp I saw that I did kind of like?
What was it?
With this, with, with, with, with Boozer, it's Kevin Love. I thought that was a pretty good comp. Think about Kevin Love at his best in Minnesota before he, you know, he went and, you know, sacrificed a lot to go win. But his first years in Minnesota, think about how productive he was. 'Cause he's, you know, Boozer's not a guy that's gonna blow you away athletically. Yeah. He's more of a grounded game. But I think he's gonna stretch his shooting out to be a really consistent, deep NBA shooter. He's already got good shooting range, but that's gotta improve, obviously. It's a huge thing, those extra 3, 4 feet. Like, you really have to put some time in. I think he can get there. Any ball that he gets his fingertips on off the defensive glass, is his, very Kevin Love-like. He's smart, he can outlet the ball quickly 'cause he's got a high IQ off the glass. He gets it out of his hands quick to the guard. That's a Kevin Love trait too. So like, I don't love a lot of comps. I thought, yeah, Kevin Love. At first I saw it, it's like, hmm, let me think about that.
And then I started watching more and more film on Boozle. I'm like, you know what, I don't mind that one.
I loved, like, heavier Kevin Love was one of my favorite rebounders of all time when he had like the extra 20.
He couldn't displace him. If he was down there though, If he got position, it was game over. And he, you know, he wasn't gonna jump over you at all. He just got his back on you and you was done, man.
One of the best offensive rebounders I've ever seen, that earlier version of him. Like, if you think about like the great, great, great rebounders that I've seen in person, and I'm sure you played with and against some of these guys, but Moses was an all-timer. I wrote about this in my book. Moses had this trick where he would kind of go under the basket almost outta bounds. And then he would just back in backwards, and then he would just be next to the rim tipping it in. Moses Barkley was incredible. Kevin Love was another one that—
Kevin Love also did very similarly to the big play in the game, what Mitchell Robinson did to Wemby on that big missed free throw, where they walk guys so deep they can't react to the ball. It gets beyond them. Kevin Love was great at that. I can see Boozer being that type of rebounder because they're not— They're not going to get those ones where you're going to run from point A to point B, cover 20 feet because you're, you're tracking it with your eyes and then you just go jump over two guys and get it. They're not going to get those kind. It's got to be done a little bit more with body positioning and then just IQ and just their sense and instincts for the ball. So high. So I think, I just think Boozer, to your point, floor is pretty high with him. I'd just be hard to imagine him. Yeah. Not being a really impactful NBA player. Even if he doesn't turn into a franchise guy, which all 40s, top 4, who knows, maybe they could, he might not, but his floor is so high, it's still, he's still going to be a really, really good NBA player.
I think he's just gonna be excellent. And I said this a week and a half ago, I think Utah's gonna take him. I have no inside info. It's just as from watching how Danny Ainge treated the draft for the last 25 years, knowing some of the stuff that you need in Utah, like they, they know his family obviously 'cause his dad played there and his dad works for them. To have a guy who could be this good who would also be like, yeah, I'm fired up to be in Utah. I think that matters. And I'm not afraid of having him and I love him and Jaren Jackson together. Like to me that, that, that's a combo that really makes sense. Whether Markkanen's there long-term or not, I don't know. And then Kessler as another shot blocker, he could play with him too. I just, I'm good with like doubling down on size over taking Peterson and hoping last year was just a weird year and he's more like the high school Peterson versus the freshman year Peterson. I think Peterson is one of the toughest evaluations we've ever had with this. I don't know what to make of the fact that he got worse in college than he was in high school and that he didn't seem as, he doesn't seem as twitchy.
He doesn't seem as fast. I don't understand it. I didn't understand the creatine thing. Like, what do you make of all this?
He is, first of all, I just, I'm just going from the pure, 'cause a lot of the stuff I don't think we have the answers to ourselves. But when you just evaluate the guy physically and his tools translating to the next level, he's, he's one of those guys, you know, I watch him, some of the stuff I've watched, I'm like, man, like that's NBA ready right now. Yeah. Like the guy can flat out score. He's got a control about his game that is almost like, even though like he's out there with another, you know, two 19-year-olds paired or couple of 20-year-olds or whatever, he just looks so much more mature in his movements that it's obvious how easy it's coming to him.
Well, you can see it on defense too where just the way he's able to navigate around screens and stuff. He's the highest possible level.
He's got control, man. But like, I'm watching him, I've read stuff where he views himself and maybe some people are evaluating him as like a point guard. I don't see that. I don't see that. I mean, I think he's, to me, maybe a combo guard that, yeah, you could put him in ball screen. To me, I reserve the phrase point guard for like a different level of understanding of how you're organizing and how easily you're facilitating for other people. Because you're 2 steps ahead with any action you run. You, you already know 2 defenders away what that rotation is going to look like, and you're— now you know what the next pass is going to be. And so you're processing all of that in real time. I, I don't see that when I watch him. I see a guy that wants to go score and get his bucket. And maybe, yeah, okay, you can run ball screen with him because scorers in this league run ball screen. But to use the term point guard, like, this is going to be a point guard one day that's going to be the guy that's like doing both, making the game easy for everybody while he's also going out getting 20, 25 a night.
I don't know that I see him that way. So this to me is more like, you want a raw scorer and a guy that's super confident. I look at all that size up front already that Utah has. A lot of your points are good about Boozer, like the fact that connection to the organization, all that, maybe that matters to them, maybe it doesn't. And he definitely could play with Jaren Jackson Jr. And it's actually something Jaren Jackson Jr. needs is a guy next to him that could rebound the way Boozer can, because he's not a big-time rebounder. He, he likes to block a lot of shots. He spends a lot of time on the perimeter. Mm-hmm.
Offensively, statistically, the better numbers aren't there.
6 a game.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, but they, but to think, you know, they already have Kessler, they have Markkanen who plays a lot of 3. That's, that's like another 6'10" and up guy to add to the mix to play unless they had other plans for some of those guys and they want to move them. And you know, that's, that's kind of almost beyond my scope of what front offices think sometimes. But I look at Peterson, I think he's just a natural raw scorer. So you look at the top of the draft, first team that thinks they need that, that's, that's who should take him.
I think he's a 2 guard. I agree with you. I don't think he's a point guard. Although I do think that line has blurred over the years with the NBA where it's kind of like, I don't think Shay's a point guard, right? But he is bringing the ball up a lot. But I like, you and I, we grew up with like point guards were actually point guards. They, their whole role was like table setter, almost like a host on a studio show or something. Their role is just to make everybody better. In the guard position, you shift it down.
There are exceptions to it. And look, you're right, it is blurred more than ever, but there are exceptions to it for guys that are so dominant off ball. I mean, off, off of, off of, um, their ball handling. They're so dominant that they're dictating terms to the defense all the time. And organically shots are being created for people. Yeah. Even if it's not necessarily in their direct wheelhouse. I mean, like Steph Curry would be an example. Is he a natural point guard? No, he's a guy that created so much offense through his movement and shooting and like the depths to which you had to go to guard him. He created offense just organically by being like Shea with his dribble. Brunson even is a guy, you know, is he a natural come down table setter? No, but he's so good at breaking you down organically. Stuff is created around him. So you have to be on a certain level if, if you're the lead guard, let's call it that. 'Cause some people prefer that, prefer that terminology. If you're the lead guard in the NBA and you wanna be a contending team, you better be so damn good that you, 'cause if it's not your natural thing to find, that you, that you're creating better opportunities to find 'cause you're so talented with the ball.
I'm not, I don't know if he's gonna be there or not. It's way too early to know that.
It's the toughest one because there's a, I mean, if you were gonna say out of all these guys, who's gonna haunt anyone that passes them up, it's probably this guy. 'Cause I think he has the highest ceiling of anyone. Like he, the, the high school stuff from a year ago, which I've talked about on previous episodes, is you're just like, oh my God, this, this guy could be like the next guy, you know?
Yeah.
And I don't know what happened to him in Kansas. I really get nervous with red flags before the draft. And I say that knowing I have a 21-year-old and an 18-year-old, and you watch kids change in real time every 6 months, every 9 months. And all of a sudden you can be like, wow, my, my daughter's completely different than she was 6 months ago. This is great. I can't believe it. It's like she's an adult. So it's so hard.
Very, very true.
It's so hard to project this.
Yeah. No, no doubt.
No.
And it hits all of a sudden. You're just kind of like, wow, that's nice.
Right?
And it's like, it's like a friend of mine told me one time, we were talking about this parenting stuff and he said, what you have to trust, like, as a parent, is that you made those deposits a long time ago, right? And so, and one day, like, wow, it hits. And then you cash in. You're like, hey, it worked. They're a good human being. Like, you know, sometimes along the way it's hard being a parent, but like, I think that's what it is. You just trust it. And then you're right with some of these players, it's the same thing. This is so difficult, man, because of the way that top picks are scrutinized. If there's even any indication that you whiffed early, it could be overbearing for the player.
Risa Shayne in Atlanta.
There's so much at stake. There's so— I'm telling you, Markelle Fultz is a guy that I was— I was at the Curry camp, the top 30 camp, the year that he was getting ready to go into his freshman year. And I was watching this guy, and the Sixers had the first pick. And so all my friends are Sixers fans. And so I was like, man, I was out there and San Francisco, and I was, you know, I was working drills and doing stations and putting these guys through it. Coached in the game. They have an All-Star game at the end of the weekend. I coached in the game. Like, Darius Garland was in that game. Like, and, and I'm like watching Markelle Fultz, and I'm like, man, this, this dude, this dude has it. Like, he's got the size, he's got crazy bounce, like way more bounce than he ever really even got to show to this point in his NBA career. Like, I, I would watch him after practice. They would have dunk contests. —and I'm watching him with these guys and I'm like, this dude is big. He's powerful. He's got shifty change of pace.
He's got a nasty step back, which is required. And he's got bounce too. So I'm like, man, it looks like— and I think going to that market at that time with what the organization had already been through was, I think, overwhelmed him. And he had injuries too that contributed to it. But I'm just saying, These are so important. They're so scrutinized more than ever before. There's so much at stake for these organizations. And, and you're trying to determine this off a very limited sample size of work. And you have no idea what this is gonna look like at, at the NBA level. And you just pray that these guys wanna put the work into the time. Does the talent's there? And again, trust your deposits when you draft them, put the deposits in now, 5 years from now, we hope this hits. Some guys obviously sooner than that, some guys never. That, that's, that's kind of where we're at with these top, you know, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 picks. It's tough, man.
The only thing I've learned over the years, competitiveness, work ethic, if that's in there at like the top, the top of the top, you're that, you're starting out in good shape there. And then the, the durability injury stuff is the third piece, right? Fultz didn't have that. Some guys come in and then you hear like the first guy in the gym, last one to leave, all that shit. Like those guys, there's a reason those guys become successful. Like you did that Finals with, with Brunson, and then Brunson had that great interview after Game 5 where he, where, you know, yet again, all of a sudden he scored a bunch of points in a row and he was just like, I just go back to all the work I put in the gym over and over. I just pretend I'm in the gym. Like honestly, that's what, that's what this is about. You can have as much talent as you want, but you still gotta work at it. I look at Pete as—
But I will say this one last, one last quick point on that. Like, but I do think there, in addition to the injury with Markelle Fultz, And whatever it was, it was a unique injury. They couldn't really get it. They couldn't get a handle on it.
It was like a weird shoulder thing. Yeah.
With the shoulder. And it changed, completely changed his mechanics into something that was unrecognizable. I'm just telling you, like, being at a lot of those games and in that building and, and being close and kind of just observing, I also think there was a component of it was tough for him being the number one pick, dealing with the injury. And then when he would go into the game when he was healthy, it, I think it was like a lot of feeling that everybody, all eyeballs on number one pick, that market. That's tough, man. And I think it was— it got to the point where like they went like, hey, TJ McConnell, we took him out of the rotation at one point completely just because we're like, we got to see if this guy can go. And after a period of time, they put TJ McConnell back in there and the crowd went crazy because it was like, we need a guy that can come out here contributing.
Right.
For whatever reason he wasn't. I was so happy for him actually when he went to Orlando and he played pretty well when he first got there. And I'm like, man, hopefully he's going to end up having a long career as a productive NBA guard. But the number 1 pick, that was difficult for him from the beginning. The injury on top of it made it impossible.
Ben Simmons was another one like that. Pressure, big situations. He had some sort of weird foul shooting thing. Didn't seem like he liked basketball that much. With the, with the Peterson piece, there's some weird agency stuff too where he, he has, he, he's represented by Team, which also is George's agency and that, that people think that's why they don't want him to go to Utah. So Memphis might be where he goes. I think Boozer's gonna go to Utah and I think Peterson will go to Memphis, but who the hell knows? And then we'll, we'll talk, let's take a break and then we'll talk about Caleb Wilson. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by my friends at FanDuel. On the biggest stage in the world, FanDuel is changing the game because sometimes your player gets subbed off And your bet goes with them. Well, not anymore. And it's already, it's already cashed in a few times here during the tournament with FanDuel Super Sub. If your player is subbed out, your bet stays in. You just get the guy that subbed in for him. That's right. If your player leaves the match, your bet continues on with the substitute.
You just get that position for the whole match. So if you're still in it until the final whistle, you're still in it because in matches like these, anything can happen. And now your bet. can go the actual distance of the game. Let there be goals this summer on FanDuel. Visit fanduel.com/BS to get started now. 21+ select states or 18+ DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. All right, so if you were the consultant to the Wizards, and they're like, hey Tim, I know you do the ESPN games. We're starting to waffle on the Bansa. The owner saw this high school tournament where Peterson scored 48 and looked like he was the greatest player of all time. Is Peterson gonna come back to haunt us? What would you do if you were us? You would just say, no, no, ride the course. Just stay with the Bansa. Don't overthink it.
Yeah, 100%. That you just, you literally took the words outta my mouth. That would be what I would say. Don't overthink this. And it happens all the time. Don't overthink this. I, I, I, I don't have really any reservation whatsoever that the Bantz is going to be a star in the NBA. How long it takes, I don't know. Down the road. I mean, look, that's an organization that obviously, you know, I played at a long, long time ago. There hasn't been a lot of stability there for a long time. So like, it's, it's a situation, a bunch of young dudes now. Look, you know, Trae Young, saying, you know, opt out. I don't know what that means for them. Is Anthony Davis gonna be bought into being there if Trey's not? You got all these other young lottery picks. I doubt Anthony Davis is gonna wanna be part of that. So, so it's this young group of dudes, all high picks, trying to figure this out together. He becomes the face overnight. So there's some, there's certainly some, like, there's not pressure, which is good for some young guys, but it's also like being part of something that's bigger in a winning culture.
Like, That's also good for players when they're young and they're drafted high. They don't have all that responsibility on 'em. So I don't know exactly what that situation is going to look like. Yeah. But I, I have no reservation that he is going to stand out barring injury. I think AJ DeBonsai is going to be a star in this league.
We agree. I, that Trae Young thing I read as he opted out and he's gonna get a longer deal for slightly less money.
Yeah, I, I read the same thing and we'll see.
That's my interpretation. Anytime.
I saw other things that were like, you know, he's, he's relishing this opportunity kind of almost to like he's got something to prove and he thinks this might be a good situation for him to do that. They're gonna love him there. I can tell you that if he plays and he does the things that Trae Young can do, he's a very entertaining player, very popular player, and he can put up some numbers and he's gonna have a lot of athletes around him playing off of him. So it could be a good situation for him. But to get inside the head of a Trae Young at this stage of his career or an Anthony Davis, good luck. I, I don't, I don't have enough expertise to know.
Yeah, I would assume Davis gets traded. Trae Young, if I'm his PR agent, I would be doing the whole, hey, Jalen Brunson, small guard, discounted, change teams, NBA title champ. Why can't that be Trae Young? Build the right team around Trae. Could be the Jalen thing. I don't think that will happen.
Caleb Wilson, what were your thoughts? Love him. I love him, man. I'm excited about Caleb Wilson. And because look, there's a dynamic—
Did I say Williams or Wilson?
No, you said Wilson, I think.
I did? Okay.
I wanted to make sure I didn't blow that one. Caleb Wilson?
Caleb Wilson, yeah.
I'm pretty sure you said Caleb Wilson.
Great.
Love him because there's a lot of things I watch with him and he's got that like eyes pop factor. You're like, holy hell. Like, and so now you look at the way the league is set up and some of the spacing that exists in that league and a guy that's got this kind of just explosive power. Yeah, sign me up for that because I think anything else that you would want to look at his game and if you want to, if you want to tighten up his handle, if you want to tighten up his shooting, particularly shooting off the dribble, I do think those are things that can be tightened up. It's not like for that you either have it now or you don't. That's not the case. Guys add that stuff all the time in the first 3, 4 years of their career, and then there's a whole nother ceiling for them. Excuse me, as a scorer. But that's what I'm talking about. That stuff where he explodes off the floor like that. No, that's not something you either have it or you don't. I mean, that is something you either have it or you don't.
And he's got it. That's not— you're not adding that later, not that degree of pop. And that's what he's got off the floor. And it blows you away because you're like, you're picturing him in any sort of, of open floor situation or even offensive rebounding situations, and he gets a step on a guy. Like, that is what big-time explosive finishing ability looks like at the NBA level. The other stuff will come. I'm, I'm, I'm a huge, huge fan of his upside.
There's a relentlessness with him that almost guarantees he's gonna be a really good NBA player. He just really gives a shit. The work ethic, the competitiveness he has, like he, he just has it. I, to me, he's not like a runner jumper. I do think there's like some hoops IQ stuff in there. Like he seems like he'd be fun to play with. And I think if he was with the right kind of guard, point guard who could be looking out for him and trying to set him up, You know, he's different 'cause Sean Kemp had a different body. But when young Sean Kemp came into the league and you just saw people he was playing against, there was a lot of this, like people looking up as he's going over them for rebounds and dunks. There's gonna be some of that. And then it'll come down to whether he can add a shot, which I'm not gonna bet against anybody who's super competitive to eventually be able to add an 18-footer, right? Kid's 19. When he's 22, he's gonna have an 18-footer. I'm not worried about it.
And I've watched him shoot enough in game situations where you're like, okay, it's not like you're watching it going, oh man, you know, put a disclaimer at the bottom of the screen, viewer discretion is advised on his release. It's not like that. I mean, I've seen guys with, and it looks decent by the time he gets to the release point, it looks pretty good. There's a lot to work with there. I would be strongly considering taking him. I don't know what the Jazz are gonna do. I don't, again, because of how many bigs they have, I don't know if they just want the best available player and they don't care if it's another big or not. But if it is Peterson that goes to the Jazz because they just want that another scorer to go, you know, on the wing, then I would strongly consider taking Wilson at 3.
I, so Danny, all bets are off 'cause he famously was gonna take Durant that one year if the Celtics got the first pick over Oden. And I think he was the only one who was gonna do that. I rarely say this, if I was Utah, I would try to flip with Chicago and pick up extra stuff and just take Wilson. 'Cause he might end up being the best out of these 4 guys. I don't think there's any way to know. Could be. And I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. Maybe Peterson, if last year the red flags kind of started to add up. But if you could move back, still get Caleb Wilson, and then pick up like the 15th from the Bulls and other stuff, like, I would think about that. I think Wilson's gonna be awesome. And we didn't even talk about this. You're the 4th pick in a 4-player draft, basically, before the drop-off. Little chip on the old shoulder. Oh, you didn't think I was the best? You thought I was fourth out of four? Okay, I'm gonna show you. And I was like those guys. Nothing like a competitive guy who got passed over.
I hear you. So there's probably a lot of drummers that had a great solo career at some point, but they never got the credit, right, with being in that band.
Right.
That could be the case. So I think that is something, you know, and that's how this has been framed. For a while now that it's these 4 guys and then there's a drop off. I do like some other guys after that.
Let's hear it. Who's your, who's your next favorite?
I love Mikal Brown. Oh my God.
That's my, I have, I'm terrible at figuring out guys like him. Make the case.
You don't like him?
I, it's the, it's my weakness with draft evaluation cuz he's a home run hitter. I felt he feels busty to me, but then he also feels like he could be a 5-top All-NBA guy. And I always like, I, those guys always scare me. Dare me. What do you like?
I don't know, man.
I, I just like the fact that he's just, he's, he's a polished, proven scorer. Like he could just flat out score. He's got, he's got handle either direction. Some of the notes I wrote down, big time threat every time he touches, scores at every level, explosive finisher, deep range, and a lot of potential to grow. He's got good size. He's not like elite in terms of his size.
Yeah.
Good enough size. To get his own shot. I, and I've seen projections anywhere. I mean, he's anywhere of 7 to 10, like most of the ones I've seen. So he is gonna go in that range. I think somebody's gonna get themselves like a, a, a big-time NBA scorer down the road wherever he ends up going.
6, he's 6'3.5 without shoes. He seems like to be the wild guy.
Fortunately they don't play barefoot.
Well, true. So put, put maybe 6'5.5 with shoes on. There you go. He seems like his range is basically like 5 to 12, which is pretty, that's what's so funny about like once you get to that Clippers pick, they don't need a guard, right? They, I mean, they don't need a point guard 'cause they have Garland. They just made this trade for them and everybody seems to have Wagner and Acuff there.
Acuff's the guy I was just gonna talk about. He's the other guy that like is kind of right there in that, in that territory. So like, and, and you know, he's, he's another guy that like, You look at both Akef, uh, Akef and Brown, both of those guys like really flashy scores. They can go get their own. And in, in some ways kind of similar in that regard. Um, Akef's, I noticed, seems to me like one of the biggest just consistent jumps up this board basically over the last month or so. It just— and to where I have, I've seen a lot of them where he's gonna be the 5th pick. Like he might be the next guy outside that top 4. I'd say, you know, And that is the, that's the Clippers with that pick. So I don't, I don't know where if he's gonna go that high, but to me he was a guy that during the season you come kind of paying attention. I start to dive in after the season, I start to look more at it after tournament's over. It feel, I feel like to me he's like solidifying himself on a, on a daily basis.
Like he's gonna be somewhere in there. If he's not the first guy taken, he's one of those first 2 or 3 after the top 4.
He was my, my crush guy in college. I really became infatuated with him and so did my buddy House and we watched a lot of him and then he had the run in in the tournament. He's just every game he was 26 and 9, 25 and 12, 28 and 8.
Oh yeah. No doubt.
He's a great shooter. He's like a pure old school big guy gets the rebound and looks for him. Like he's like a real point guard. Give me the ball. I want the ball all the time. I'm good on fast breaks. I think if you're gonna take a guard that high, who is clearly a smaller guard, who's gonna probably be not the, not the greatest guy on defense, you better think this guy's a home run. And I think he's that good. Like, I, like, I do think he's a real—
He's a lead guard. He's one of those guys we're talking about. He, that's his style of game. One of, some of the notes I just real quick I wrote down, just great change of pace. Like really keeps guys off balance. Explosive first and second dribbles, which is a big deal in the NBA. Like that first one, a lot of guys had that first step. He's got 1 and 2, that second gear as he gets downhill, finishes with both hands really, really well. Like, so he can drive either way, gets into your body, and he's got like creative finishing because he's probably learned to, because again, he's not 6'6", 6'7" coming out. She was in that 6'3" range. So he's had to learn how to be more creative with his finishing. He's a lead guard with outrageous potential. So he would be right there. He might be 5, like him and Brown, they're going to be right there. Yeah. In that category.
And Wagner is the other one that a lot of people have there. And Wagner's a tough one to me because we, like, we talk about, like, we were doing the comps before. I look at Acuff and he just reminds me a lot of Kyrie. I think, I think he is more of a point guard than Kyrie was, but his ability to, to finish with either hand, how he uses the stop and start stuff, how he gets somebody on his hip and carries them, sense of the moment. It's all stuff we saw with Kyrie. And same thing, like Kyrie was, he might be maybe a half inch, inch bigger than him, but reminds me a lot. I don't know who Wagler reminds me of. I don't, I don't know what the roadmap is for him. He's so unconventional. Like, I don't think he had a dunk last year. He doesn't finish at the rim. Everything's like this herky-jerky, you know? And that team was built around just what a unique player he was, but he wasn't a top, I don't even think he was top 100 or top 150 heading into college. and had this meteoric rise.
But I don't know—
Another guy—
—that we were mindspanned.
—of— one of the things I love about him, 'cause I'm always kind of really honed in on evaluating shooting mechanics and release and how that's gonna translate. He's got tremendous extension. There are, believe it or not, a lot of guys make shots in college and they're gonna be drafted in these drafts and they don't really extend on their finish. And I think to myself, well, it's fine when you feel you're the best player on the court, and you're creating a little bit more space than you're gonna create at the next level, that you're just not gonna be as consistent.
Yeah.
Because I think if you're not, if you don't have full extension now, that's gonna shorten up even more as the windows shrink to get the shot off. And now it's, you're just never gonna, because it's a lot of front rims. Wagler has tremendous extension. Like he gets full extension and it's quick. He gets into his shooting motion quick and he's got full extension, elbow lock, wrist lock at the same time. I look for that kind of thing that, that translates like this is who this guy is. That's not going to change. He doesn't need to work on that. He's already got that. He's coming into the league. He can make shots now and then. Now he's climbing because people are looking at him as being more than that. Like he's more than a shot maker. He can do some other things for you as well. He's got, you know, pretty good size as well. Better size than the two guys we were just talking about.
And came through on a big stage, which isn't nothing, you know, like I really thought he got in that tournament. Him and Acuff both were really great. Part of the problem with this is, so when you're starting with pick 5, basically the next 4 best guys are, are point guards or smaller guards. 'Cause Flemings is the other one from Houston. And as we know with the draft, not everyone needs a point guard. Like, first of all, we have a bunch of awesome point guards in the, in the league already. There's 4 more. It makes me think one of them's not gonna make it. And then Burris, have you studied Burris at all?
No. Yeah, yeah, I have. Yeah.
And then Burrys is the one who is the best 2-guard available.
No question about it. The thing I love about him better than any of these guys, and he had to because he was more off-ball than the other 3 guys. And I think we didn't mention Kingston Fleming. Is that the other guy you're talking about? You said that the next 3 you were talking about— Acuff and Brown and Wagler and Fleming. It's like those 4 guys. Those 4 guys with Burrys. Yeah. Burrys is more of like what I love about him. You can run pin-down action for him. He is— he comes off down screens and he's getting, he's getting his hips turned and swiveling into the catch, and it's gone quicker. So like, that is like another element to use a guy like that. He can, he can create offense off his motion because he's such a threat off down screens out to deep. He doesn't necessarily need to play with the ball first to get into his shot. I think some of the other guys we talked about, that's just more natural for them, for that rhythm. They need the rhythm first. he's a guy that you can put off the ball. So maybe his usage isn't as high.
Maybe he goes to a situation where he can't have high usage because of who they already have, but he could still go get shots up because he doesn't need a lot of time to do it and he doesn't need a rhythm dribble or a live dribble to do it first. He, to me, the best of this group at that kind of stuff, getting his hips turned off a down screen and letting it fly from deep.
And he's gonna be a really good defender. He, now he's a year older 'cause than some of these guys, but was a big LA, like he won the high school state title here where he was like the lead guard for that team. But I, I've said this, he's been my favorite guy outta the top 4 other than Acuff because it was same, a lot of the same reasons I like Castle 2 years ago. 'Cause he's on that great Arizona team, right?
Yeah.
And they didn't really need a lot of what he— Yeah. So he was just like, all right, well, what do you need from me? All right, I'll do this, this. And he just kind of figured out how to fit in, hit a couple big threes when they needed him, play defense, do, do like all like the nitty gritty stuff, which is exactly what Castle did at UConn. And then when Castle went to San Antonio, like he was able to, and I think Burris has that in him. He makes the most sense for the Clippers. My question is, you don't necessarily need to take him at 5. Could you trade back? Could you flip spots with the Kings, who everybody thinks they want Akef? Could you flip spots with them, pick up one extra asset, and then take Burrys at 7?
You'd have to, I mean, listen, as we know, all these guys we're talking about, it's beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Because I haven't personally, a lot of the different mock drafts I've been studying and looking at, haven't seen him really that high. So you would have to be just one of those things where what you see is like, man, what he does, these particular specific things better than some of the guys we've talked about who are like, yeah man, they got a lot of junk in their game. They do a lot of stuff. They're scorers, natural scorers. But we like this specific skill better to take him that high. Most of the ones, mock drafts I've looked at, have not seen him as high as 5. So I don't know where, you know, he ends up.
Yeah, but what do you do if you're the Clippers though? Because you have Kawhi who's gonna be 35 next year. You have Garland who's your point guard. And if you're taking another point guard, you could talk yourself into it and just be like, look, we're gonna be a little unconventional. We're gonna have these two scoring guards and you know, we're not, there's gonna be some bad stuff on defense, but that, that's why we have Ty Lue and a coaching staff. I just find it hard to believe they're gonna do that, which is why I feel like they're gonna trade back and take Burris would be, there's one other trade I love. I gotta throw this at you. Yeah. This is just in general something I've been watching. And you, you didn't do the Western Conference for playoffs this year, right? Did you do the—
I did the Eastern Conference.
Yeah, you did the East.
We did the Eastern Conference.
Yeah, you had the stinky, stinky sweep.
We had a, we had the Knicks just treating people like a wood chipper.
Yeah, you had that one.
Yeah.
I don't know what happens with Wallace and OKC where you have these, you have Shay and now you just gave Maxes to Chet and you gave, of Max to J Dub. And you have Wallace, who after the season, it was very interesting, he had a little moment in a press conference where he was basically like, it was interesting when I, or he said something about when Shay was out during that stretch and Wallace had the ball. And you and I talked about this in a pod where it was like—
Did a couple of games during that time.
Yeah, there's a lot more with Wallace here that we didn't really get to see. Then the playoffs happen, he's back to 25 minutes a game. I mean, he averaged 8 points a game this season, right? It's year 3 for him. All right, well, what's he worth? 'Cause you're talking extension now. After year 3, you can extend a guy. And if I'm him, I'm like, there's more here. I could be the lead guard. I'm one of the best defenders in the league. I'm a $30 million a year guy, and I don't think OKC's gonna play it— pay it. So what about Wallace and the 12 for 5? Clippers get Wallace, they move back 7 spots. OKC moves up to 5. Is that too much?
You're outside the top 4. I mean, look, I think— is that too much to give up for that pick for OKC?
Yeah. How much do you like Wallace?
I like Wallace a lot, but they have, to me, in their system and the guys that they have, um, he's one of the better on-ball defenders in the NBA, but— and he did ramp his game up a little bit when he got more of an opportunity. But they've also got, you know, AJ Mitchell sitting there like, so these, there's—
You and I love him too. Yeah.
Right. And he is a guy that's just much more dynamic offensively with what he can do. He hasn't even scratched the surface of how good he is going to be. So I, I like him, but expendable. Absolutely. And, and this was the problem all along for OKC. Like, well, not even a problem, it's a good problem to have. They won a title and they had like this perfect system and they had a superstar and then they had, couple, like 2 and 3 were like really good players, and then he had a bunch of role players interchangeable a lot of nights, really deep. You're not going to be able to keep all those guys. You're just not going to be able to, and you're not going to need to because of who's at the top. You can find guys, I think, that can replicate what those guys do, maybe have a little bit more scoring punch to them. You know, even look at what they went out and found in McCain, like that move to pick him up and what the offensive punchy game where he's playing heavier minutes than some of the guys we're talking about that were staples for this team for 2 years, and they picked them up midseason coming off an ACL injury.
Because they, they identify it better than just about any organization. So if they looked at that and said, you know what, we're not— we, we think that we can move up and get the guy that we desperately need, we can replace a Kayson Wallace, and then who knows at 12, man, you can start getting down there, it's a crapshoot anyway. To go get the exact guy that they want, whoever that player may be? No, I don't, I don't necessarily think that is. But I, again, I don't know, like, do they view any of those guys outside the top 4 as that?
I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. 'Cause that was, it's almost like a math problem. Like at some point Wallace on a rookie contract is perfect, but now with Wallace with a contract looming, as you have to pay him basically as like, not even better than a fourth guy, 'cause he's probably worth like 25 to 30 on the open market with what his ceiling is. They can't pay that. And the whole point of having all of these picks and taking swings and grabbing McCain locking down AJ Mitchell to this great contract is that you have to build this like cheap apparatus around your 3 guys. You can't pay, you can't pay Wallace $30 million.
So really the time to trade him is now. Committed to the top 3, something like that, right? So like you're right. I mean it's—
So you got, you have to use him and move up and maybe even then if you have 5, now maybe it's easier to try to even move up into that top 4. But it was one I was thinking, 'cause if, I have Clippers season tickets. I want them to at least be decent next year before aspiration annihilates them. But if they got Kayson Wallace and then the 12th pick, I feel like they'd be better off.
And if they don't get into that, you know, get into that situation where they're gonna move that pick or whatever, which I— there's no question they're gonna listen to all that because they're not in the top 4. And we think there is a difference there. Seems to be, you know, if they see that Acuff's the guy, like if that were the guy and they just looked at him like he's better than everything else and we think, you know, I'm taking the best available player. I don't care that we have Garland and we've got guard play. I don't care because this guy ultimately is going to be a guy that can flat out play at the NBA level and he can play quickly at that level.
Yeah.
Then maybe they hold it and, and they take that just to take the best available player. But you know, they're, they're, they're like a veteran team. So it's like, you know, you don't know what they're thinking is like, they're not, they don't have time to develop guys that they draft.
But that's why they— that's why Acuff doesn't make sense to me because you have Kawhi who's 35 and you're gonna play him and Garland. Like, I'm not winning the title with that as much as I like Acuff. Or you have to trade Garland at that point. It just opens up these different doors. They— what do you— did you, did you study the center yet, Mara?
Yeah, I was just gonna ask you about him 'cause we didn't talk about any bigs really, like real centers. We talked about some bigger guys, but like, he's different. Here's the thing, man. I watch him. It's so hard for me because even like I go back to a guy like Eadie and they're like a little bit different. And I looked at Zach Eadie and I was like, I don't, as dominant as he was in college, like I don't know how he's gonna change into the floor at the NBA level. Like it's a big deal. Like he's lumbering up the floor now. Oh, it was a turnover. Now you gotta get back and run. And like, is he gonna be too methodical to do anything offensively? He's, he answered this question first. Like he leaned up. He worked with their player performance team and like even his running stride improved, everything improved. So it's like, no, this is fine. He can keep up with this and actually do a lot of damage offensively. Kind of stays in a limited lane, but he, he's an effective NBA player. So now look at Mar— they're different body types.
They're a little bit different. He— Mar is like more agile. Certainly the thing I like about him, I was like watching, like he's got a really, really good feel. For like passing, passing, dribble, handoff game. And he can find guys from the elbows. He's, he's just really clever with his passing. He's thinking one step ahead. It's another dimension to your team. He's a really good rim protector. The guy's 7'3", so he's going to protect the rim and he moves well. You know, guys like that, there's going to be limitations there offensively, you know, unless he becomes a really good 3-point shooter. And then there's more opportunity for you there. And even like a guy like Clingan, is trying to do that in Portland. Like he's taking more threes.
Yeah.
Because he knows if I don't, I'll never ever get anything other than a rim run lob or offensive rebound. So I better learn how to do it. Can Maura do that? Can he extend out there? He needs to. I'm sure that's probably all he's doing this summer in trying to extend that range. But I just like his feel for the game, his, his IQ, his touch, and his finesse with his passing. I think that translates to a lot of different systems. You can play him, he's gonna help make other guys better. Particularly if he learns how to shoot the basketball, he just has more upside.
I love the passing too. I like him in general. And at one point I was convinced he had to go in the top 10 because he's somebody I could just see in a playoff series. Then I did some more research. The minutes really scare me with him. He put— so when he went to UCLA, which everybody agrees didn't go awesome, he played basically 10 minutes a game and 13 minutes a game for them in the first 2 years. Then he went to Michigan. Played 23.4 minutes a game last year. If I'm taking, if I'm using the 8th pick in the draft, like to me that, that means like, oh, I can see he's gonna be a big off the bench. Like Eddy played big minutes, had points, rebounds, and was a proven, like you can actually put, now he got hurt in Memphis, but I just think top 10's too high for him the more I look at it. Yeah. And maybe OKC can get him at 12 and that's a great pick for them. But this draft is so good. And if I have a chance to get somebody like Burrys at 8 or 9 or Kingston Flemings, I, I can't take a guy who played 23 minutes a game last year.
I just can't.
No, it's fair. It's a fair point. And I think just in general, you're just looking at him and you're going, well, there's other guys that I think you're just looking at offensive upside, you know, 3, 4 years from now is so much greater. It can be hard to justify that unless you have glaring hole, like a glaring need. Like we, we are so undersized up front, we don't like the bigs that we have. If it's so glaring and he's available and he's in that 10-ish range somewhere in there.
OKC, 12. That's, that's like the perfect—
You can take a flyer on him.
Yeah. But like, I don't think Golden State can take him at 11 because they need athleticism. They need, they need young guys, they need pop, they need somebody that can kind of tilt their team a little bit. And we don't know what they're gonna do this summer with, they have, you know, I still think LeBron's going there. Like, who knows? Who knows what they're capable of this summer? But like, this is a luxury pick. I don't think this is somebody you can take in the top 10 with this many good players. And we didn't really talk about Flemings. I can't decide on him, like what the ceiling is for him because he's not, he's not huge. He's like 6'1". Yeah. He's fast as shit. He's really competitive and he's a good defender. But we've also—
Got some bounce.
We've also seen those guys, like, people really regret taking those guys, like, 7th, 6th, 8th, these 6'1" guys that unless you have a chance to be one of the 8 best point guards in the league, it's just not worth the pick. I'd rather have somebody that I know can play big minutes.
Yeah, I think that that's, look, he's, I've seen him in the top 10, like the bottom 2, like closer to 10. I've seen him on a lot of, draft boards, like he's in that area. Some of the other guys I think are clearly more like polished right now. Aikoff and Brown and guys like that, Wagler, I think are a little bit different category. He's an interesting one because you start getting to that pick and like he's the next most talented guy on the board. So I'm curious to see like how that ends up. I do like kind of like athletically the way he competes, like you're going, okay, that translates, like he's going to be able to hold his own and hang athletically. It won't be a problem for him. Yeah. He's, he's right there. Same category with those other guys.
Atlanta at 8. I actually think point guard makes perfect sense for me for them. Sacramento desperately needs one at 7. Brooklyn needs anything. And then Dallas at 9 is a fun one because it seems like Kyrie's gonna be back. They have Flag, they have a bunch of like expensive, really polished swings, right? They're gonna have Lively back, they have Gafford. And everybody has Burrys going there to them at 9, which makes a ton of sense to me. But it's, it's when we get to like 10, 11, that range, I think the draft gets—
Burrys going there to me would be an ideal pick, an ideal fit for him. It fits a need. They need guys that can shoot the ball off of guys they have now that can absolutely collapse a defense and break 'em down as primaries. To have a guy that you can plug in that's gonna get clean looks and shoot 'em at a high rate, that makes a lot of sense.
Have you, have you done Steinbach work yet?
Did do Steinbach.
Big, big rebounder. Pick and roll guy, like classic in the right spots.
Strong. Yeah. I got his, I wrote down for him, very strong in the open court, dude. Sort of bounce off him, runs well, athletic, very, very tough. Yeah, he's a guy, he's a guy that just kind of stood out just because of, he was just like, So physical and so strong the way he plays the open floor with dudes. Sort of, he's just making space organically as he moves up the floor. Yeah, I was impressed, particularly just his competitive toughness.
He seems, I'm not 100% sold on him because I do, I just can't get the Spurs-OKC and Spurs-Nicks out of my brain. I'm like, where would he have played in those series? But he feels like a perfect Charlotte pick for 14.
Sehr gut, sehr gut, sehr gut.
Sehr gut?
Wieso, Steuer ist sehr gut.
Das sagen ganz viele. Cool.
Wer sagt das?
Stiftung Warentest, Computerbild, Focus Money, Chip, Finanztipp. Such dir was aus.
Mega. Aber das ist doch bestimmt kompliziert.
Nö. Einfach Foto von der Lohnsteuerbescheinigung machen und fertig.
Klingt sehr gut.
Ist sehr gut. Hol dir dein Geld zurück mit WISO Steuer.
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Alright, we gotta play quickly. I sent you a list of all the favorites for the 2027 title.
Yeah.
And just like, and it's a good time to think about this 'cause we're heading into trade season, the draft and free agency right now. So just quickly, Spurs are the favorites right now on FanDuel, +250. And their big question is the Keldon expiring and then they have 20 and 35, 40, 42. So they have stuff to move around and do stuff. You were there, you were in the house for these games. Yeah. They have Fox, whose extension hasn't even kicked in yet. You have a bunch of Spurs fans like, let's get this guy the fuck outta there. It's Dylan Harper time. What do you do? What do you do with Fox?
It's tough because his number's gonna be big. I'm not, listen, I don't overreact to the extent, obviously a lot of people do, particularly Spurs fans right now, the way they're feeling about the series he had. It's a big moment specifically, but the guy can still play. And he's gonna be getting a big number. He still does add a dimension with his speed. He's a high-caliber NBA guard that had a terrible finish to his season. I don't know that that's gonna carry over. He wasn't 100% healthy. He'll get healthy over the summer. Nobody was really feeling this way about him most of the season. So it's a terrible way for him to end. He's going to be part of the mix here. So, but now the question is gonna be this, and I, people that are watching the Finals heard me repeatedly. Particularly in the last game. How are you going 5, 6 possessions in a row and Dylan Harper is off the ball kind of hanging out when he was by far to me the most comfortable player on the Spurs in that game. And, and it just in general looks that way all the time.
But think about the stakes in that game. He— you cannot keep this dude out of the paint with one defender. You just can't do it. His shooting's streaky. It's, it's— it'll get there, I think. Harper's— he— but the thing is he can also make plays for people. He's a great defender. Is it time you go, that's our starters, we're not going to start all 3 of these guys? Is Fox at that number something that's going to be smart to bring him off the bench and be more of like a second unit guy to go get his offense rather than continue to start him and bring Dylan Harper in, even though a lot of nights now you're playing them starters' minutes? Doesn't make a lot of sense. So I don't know what exactly the solution is going to be. Clearly this is Harper and Castle going forward, particularly The sooner that Harper becomes a more reliable shooter— because Castle got better as the year went on. He was over 40% after the All-Star break. It's still not his wheelhouse.
Yeah.
And he can be very streaky from there. And Harper can too. That's tough. And if you want Fox a little bit more— he's a bit more consistent with his mid-range pull-up, even with his 3-point shot most of the time. Certainly not there late for him. But I don't know what the answer is. I just know this is Harper and Castle. Is it next year, the year after? Whenever is it going to be? I don't think Fox is going anywhere. At that number coming off of that series. So you better kind of wrap your head around it as a Spurs fan.
Could you feel it being that close sitting courtside? Could you feel Fox starting to waver confidence-wise?
Yeah, I did. I think it was, it was more than just whatever he was going through physically. There's no question. It's, it got, here's the thing I'll say about De'Aaron Fox. I've, I don't think I've ever seen him miss as many makeable looks for him. It's not like this dude was getting draped because he couldn't separate because he was that injured. He was getting to his pull-up. He was getting to open 3-point moves. Yeah, those little spin moves. Those little spins that he likes to take. He was getting to that little quick pull-up when he gets like a ball screen, like at 22 feet instead of 30, and he comes off and he just stops on a dime at 18 feet. I mean, his release was clean most of the time. And so I— that told me all I need to know. Like, it's, it's definitely in here. He's feeling something. And now string together with, like, bad performances. Now you start to overthink it. I got a lot of respect for the guy. He's unbelievably smart. He's a good teammate. Like, we interviewed him a lot during the series. Guy's just got a lot to say that's meaningful as a leader.
He had a terrible series, man, and he had some moments that were very difficult for Spurs fans to swallow. I get it. You, you don't just put this guy out at the curb with the recycling can. Like, you, you know, you can't do it.
But do you feel like a, I don't know, it's a small piece, medium piece, or big piece of this is you have this fucking prodigy behind you who deep down you probably know, even though he barely knows what he's doing, is probably better than you at point guard. And you have that piece too, where it's every time this guy comes in, he's swinging the game. And swinging the energy of it, getting to where he wants to go, and he's not scared. And you know, the fact that he played 31 minutes a game in that series and Fox played 36, that might have been the difference in the series. If you flip— After game 1. If you flip that, I don't know.
After game 1, Mitch Johnson admitted, 'cause they didn't remember that was mostly Fox in the 4th quarter. Harper didn't play much in that quarter.
4 minutes.
And he said basically, And he basically— Mitch Johnson owned it, and he said that was a mistake, man. You know, looking at— he's a young coach, he's allowed to make mistakes. I like the fact that he kind of answered it that honestly. Yeah, I'd probably need to look at that. I didn't handle that well. And then it was never gonna— he said, I was just, you know, probably not gonna happen again going forward. And what he ended up doing was playing them both together a lot in the fourth quarter. But the one— the Game 5 was, was kind of where I couldn't understand. And I said it, I don't know how many possessions in a row, probably, in that broadcast. How is Dylan Harper right now off the ball, right? As you start your— why is he not the initiator of this?
Why is Castle bringing the ball up?
There's no—
well, even Fox was doing it. Yeah, because Castle, because Castle does find himself repeatedly like in foul trouble. I thought he looked absolutely exhausted in that game. He had a terrible shooting night himself, didn't really impact the game offensively at all, which is rare for Castle because I love him. But it got to the point, okay, he looks gassed. He doesn't have it tonight. He's expended so much energy guarding Brunson. Maybe we got to go with Fox and Harper. Okay, cool. If you want to do that, go ahead. Harper needs to be the initiator because they hadn't figured out a way to keep this guy out of the lane and they just couldn't do it. And whatever it is, what it is. Here's the thing. You're going to have these 3 guards next year and you— I don't know exactly what the plan is going to be because like you said, Fox is a big number and it kicks in. Harper is on a rookie deal, palatable, but it's obvious to everybody what this guy's going to be. He's going to be one of the major forces at that position in the league soon. Like, if not next year, the year after.
So how do you handle that from a playing a standpoint and a, like, a fit standpoint of who's on the court at the same time with Wemby as well? So it's a tough decision. I'm glad I don't have to make it. Harper is going to be the future, but Fox is a guy that's a big part of the mix, man. You can't just get— Yeah. Get rid of it. He, and the guy can still play, trust me.
And Wemby will probably have a little say into this too. I mean, Harper was, I would take him over everybody in this draft, and I think this draft is better than last year's draft. But to me, he's like, I think he has a chance to be one of the best guards of the last 30 years. Like, I really do.
I think—
Let me ask you something.
I thought the stuff he was doing, how unafraid he was, was nuts.
Yeah, it's a big statement and I like him so much. I think I probably would agree with you, but that's, that's what I know now. So let me ask you, so like going back to before last year's draft, did you feel that way about him then? Or are we so— everybody was so overshadowed by Cooper Flagg. It was like we knew that was the number one pick. Or are you saying like kind of like what you know now about Dylan Harper and the, especially the way he grew late in the year. That you go, okay, kind of know now like what this dude's ceiling is and we might actually be underselling him.
That's what I'm saying. Who knows? Yeah, 'cause last year in the draft, the Rutgers season was so weird. I didn't know what to make of that. It's like, all right, this team's gonna have 2 of the top 5 picks and they couldn't make the tournament. Like what? What happened? And you're 500, right? And then you watch the clips and, but, and we talked about him a few times when he came on my pod during the year, but I saw it in the preseason. I was like, oh my God. What's going on with this guy? And then every time he would just jump outta the TV.
And he's got, the thing that surprised me is this, in this, in this particular stage, as much as I already kind of believed right there in front of my eyes when I'm, when I was watching a guy with the stakes that high, with that much pressure. And if game was so physical, you know, the, the way it was, it was defended on both teams. —like he didn't speed anything up when he— when most guys that age get any daylight, you're going to rush it. Yeah, he missed the layup in Game 5. It wasn't because of that. He just missed the shot. He didn't quite extend his arm fully. He missed the layup. That was a big play late in the game. But I'm not— I'm not, you know, that wasn't because of stress or pressure or playing too fast. He could play as fast as he wanted, as explosive as he wanted. And then when it came time to control his body, and put English on the ball, even with a bunch of, of traffic at the rim. He was so far beyond his years in his ability to finish under those circumstances.
Yeah.
With English and reverse layups when you think there's no way he can extend and get there. And he made it look so routine that I was like, man, it's amazing to me this guy has arrived at this level this fast in his rookie year. He's like, okay, he's making a statement. Like, this is kind of— what it's gonna look like for a while.
And was getting big rebounds. And I really liked his defense.
Great rebounder.
I thought, I loved how him and Castle, that's what made Brunson's series so crazy. I thought Castle and Harper defended him great. I loved everything they did. And Brunson just kind of solved it as the series went along and figured out how to score on them.
Bill, what he did, we haven't even talked to the Finals. What, what Jalen Brunson did in Game 5 against that level —of individual defender in front of him. And by the way, it's not just Castle or Harper. Vassell, more than adequate. Champagny can do a nice job on him as well. And I know, by the way—
Yeah, there's Wemby.
If you get past all that, Wemby's back there. To drop 45 points on them efficiently in something that important against that caliber defense, defense in front of you,— it's one of the greatest Finals performances of all time. And, um, and again, he did it very matter-of-factly and very routine. And it was so smart in the way he attacked and the way he kept guys off balance, including Wemby. A couple times at the rim, we'd start stopping, and Wemby would bump him and then couldn't, couldn't gather to jump to go get it. And Brunson would just extend because he's not jumping very high, and he's 6'2", and he's just laying the ball in wherever he wants and shooting mid-rangers like it was nothing. It was amazing, amazing, amazing to watch a guy with that kind of composure as a scorer against that level defender when he is not blowing by you or going over you in any way.
Yeah, it was, you know, so a Bucks fan friend of mine was like, well, you mentioned, you said Brunson had one of the greatest Finals performances. Like, why didn't you mention Giannis 5 years ago? And Giannis had that 50-point game in the closeout, which was a great game. The difference with what Brunson did in Game 4 and Game 5 was the inevitability that you could feel with the scoring. Like, I, I was texting Nick friends like, here comes Brunson. He's, this is it. He's gonna score. He's gonna go on a heater right now. And the Spurs by Game 5, I feel like they kind of knew it too. And he broke their will in a different way. That's like that, you know, he's obviously not Michael Jordan, but there's very few players over the years that got that to that break your will level. Yeah. And I do feel like he fucked with the Spurs. Like, it was just over and over again, "Oh, you fucked up again. We're only down 7 with 8 minutes left. I'm gonna score the next 9." Like, it's just what the level he got to. But to do it against that team, I thought that was one of the most amazing things I've seen in the Finals.
It's one of the greatest Finals performances of all time. I'm not gonna waver from that. And it's because of, again, what was in front of him. And as good as it might have looked to a lot of people on TV, like, in terms of the pressure on him with these defenders, trust me, Trust me, sitting there watching it, to watch guys that big and physical, and the game was so physical, and they're, they're quicker than him and they're gonna beat him to spots, and they're, they're taller than him and they're stronger. And he just did whatever he wanted to do. And it was, it was, it was mind-blowing in the moment to be able to call that and to watch like that level of greatness. When you look at like the physical profile of the player. Yeah. And it's all just— it's all just strength and balance and footwork and touch and IQ. And then the final component, which is really what separates him, his— what he is processing in the feeling in terms of pressure of the moment. It's not what other people are processing. He doesn't feel it. It actually— some ways it actually increases his adrenaline in a good way in those moments.
And there's been a lot of guys, obviously, over the course of the history of the league that also kind of fall into that category. But in this series, it stood out so much from everyone else that he wasn't feeling what everybody else was feeling with this energy in these two buildings. And it was like the force and physicality of the defenses. And he's just like, no, I'm just going to kind of do my thing. And I know where I'm going to end up at the end of this possession. It'll be in a place that I like.
Not to mention, he's carrying 6 generations of Knicks fans and 53 years of history and just I got a great—
And like 35 former players like at every game. It was like incredible, man.
I got a great email from a listener who was saying that it was almost like watching when they would talk about Prefontaine, Steve Prefontaine, the runner. Oh yeah, yeah. How he would hang behind, hang behind, and then he would make his move and everybody knew he was gonna make his move and he would just kind of wait. He'd let everybody run himself out. And like, okay, now I'm gonna do it. And then everybody who was running against would know that he was doing it and he would still do it. And that's where the Knicks got with these comebacks. Like they were, I've never seen a team more comfortable down 10, down 12, where you never felt like the game was gonna get away from them. Usually when you're down 12 in the third quarter, you're like, fuck, we give up one more 3. Like this, this game's a wrap. And the Knicks kind of liked it. And they, they like this come from behind thing where you could feel the momentum shift. And then, you know, we, we talked about Fox earlier, but the Spurs not having that settle down guy, it just wasn't, you know, obviously Wemby's not there yet.
They just didn't have that one guy like, I got this, guys, I got this. They didn't have it.
That was my point on top of what you just said, which is so true about the comfortability factor for the Knicks. And part of that was because they were observing the uncomfortability factor. On the other side in those moments because they didn't have a clear, defined identity offensively, either individually or collectively. And part of it is because there's— there's— these guys are growing as players. There are holes in their games. And, and I think— and I said a lot about it the other day on, on our All-City pod, and I believe it— I think the biggest area of growth for Wemby is going to be answer that going into next season. And how do you answer that? You answer that by dominating from 15 to 20 feet.
Yeah.
That's the area of the floor that he doesn't really yet know how to fully utilize his shooting ability and length. And it's in a simple jab step, a Dirk Nowitzki type of closing ability from that area of the floor. It's also hard to double team him from that area of the floor. He could play one dribble, he's at the rim from the top of the key easily with his length. But he doesn't really go there and catch the ball. He either, runs to the rim, or he pops back behind the 3. Those are the two things he does. He doesn't really screen short roll, and they hit him there. Not to mention, such an easy target to hit on that short roll because you can throw it high. He can just catch it up here. Even if there's traffic for the guard, just throw it up, he'll catch it. And now he's got it one-on-one. Give him some room, one strong side shooter, and now let him practice that jab and get guys off him just a little bit. Boom, make 4 or 5 of those jumpers a game, couple swing-through and goes. And, and, and I think the game will be easier for him 'cause he didn't know really where to go in those game-defining, series-defining championship—
They were— he was 30, 30 feet from the basket running pick and roll with Fox. He didn't know where to go. Yeah, I, well, I always thought that Duncan spot, that's where he has to figure out like 12 feet to the side, pick a side, you have your bank shot, you can swoop into the paint, do the Dr. J. That too. That— —Agreed. You're a lob threat from the side. Like, that's what he's gotta figure out. He doesn't have a spot. Yeah. And I don't, it bothers me that he doesn't have a jump hook either. I don't know why he doesn't have a little—
Yeah. I mean, when's the last good reliable jump hook we've seen? And I gave up when I would see 7-footers come into the league with some skill and I'm like, how do you not practice like a 2-dribble to the middle jump hook over either shoulder?
Al Jefferson?
'Cause it's, Damn near unstoppable. Al Jefferson had a great moment. His, even his was more almost like a, it was like he almost turned his full body. It was a push, right? Because his shoulders were square to the rim.
Yeah.
Yao Ming had a decent little jump hook. Yao Ming was, was like, he, he kind of mastered that.
Duncan had one, but not to the extent that you would think.
Yeah. Guys would. And I think for, for Wemby, I think that that's not bad, man. 'Cause you could, you know, look at some of the distances that Kareem shot it from. Like, it doesn't have to be a 5-foot shot. He might have a hard time getting guys that deep. So, Okay, what if it's an 8, 9, 10-foot shot and it looks smooth and you practice it enough? Who's stopping it? So I, I agree. Look, and I think this is what really to me separated the two teams. The, the Knicks going into Game 5, I said, had the most precarious 3-1 lead in the history of team sports because they, they'd been outscored 70% of the minutes in the series. They were, they, they, everything had gone right in these key moments that had to So now here you are, they're up 3-1, but man, it could easily been 3-1 the other way. We all know that the difference in this series was how these two teams managed the last 5, 6 minutes of the game. Birds were kind of looking around like, what are we going to do this time down the floor? Because all their best players have a little bit of a hole in the game.
Too young, not a good enough shooter. Maybe if you're Castle, Wemby, we just talked about, doesn't get those spots on the floor that are comfortable for him enough. Guess what? Best learning lesson, losing that series. That's, that's the best thing that could happen to them for long-term success here in the foreseeable future, cuz they're gonna remember how that felt and they're gonna address that exact situation.
I 100% agree. And yet they're gonna look back. I mean, that's one of the all-time squandered series.
No, no, no doubt.
I have forgotten so many things happened in those 5, in those 5 games. So many things happened. I forgot that, that Wemby missed an 18-footer just to win game 1. That was a pretty open shot. You just go through that. Clean look. If you're a Spurs fan, you're just torturing yourself going all summer.
But even like that, even like that shot, I said, you know, like even that they ran good action. He, they ran, it was him and Fox. Fox came off. They, it was, they knew exactly what they wanted to get. High ball screen. They knew, they knew you're gonna have to give some sort of help or walk or Fox is gonna walk into an 18-footer to win the game. So they— you knew the big was going to shade, which meant it's going right back to Wemby. The only— but the only thing I don't understand is this. And Mitchell Robinson, they got a lot of credit for his contest. I don't really think it affected him. I— but why did you— why fall down backwards? Like, you're shooting a shot to win the game, right? Stay on your feet and stay with your extension. Because he went— Michael Jordan style. Just, just stay with nothing else. Stay upright to give the ball the best chance to get over the front of the rim. Your momentum going back to that extent that you can't even stay upright, of course the ball is gonna— it's impossible to track that to the center of the rim.
So that's even that again, it's youth, it's young, it's, it's going through it for the first time, you know. Figure out a way next time in that situation, stay on your feet and shoot an 18-footer because there's not a person on the planet that's gonna really bother you on that contest if you stay upright.
Well, he asked us to figure out how to play more than 29 minutes a game. 'Cause I think—
True.
That 10 weeks, now he knows. Now he knows what that 10 weeks feels like from start to finish. And I just thought there were a couple of those fourth quarters where he was just wobbling around. He made the, obviously the huge mental mistake at the end of Game 2 and It's all part of the process. He's gonna have to figure out how do I ramp up to 37, 38 in the playoffs? And that's it.
But it was game 2, you know, that, that's the, you learn, learn. They gotta learn from it. They didn't know exactly what they wanted to do. Castle looks at him and then goes, oh, oh, you're gonna bring it up? Okay, I'm outta here. And then, oh, no, wait, hits him in the back. But it's just because it was like they weren't completely in sync 'cause they're so young.
Yeah.
Collectively so young. Well, now we know, don't bet on young teams.
Now we know again. This is what we said all year. They're too young. They haven't been there. It's like, I'll play.
And here's the thing, it's what's scary for like maybe the league is, is just the fact that, okay, yeah, they lost one series, but like nothing will expedite their learning curve like that. Nothing. No way their season could have ended any of, even losing Game 7 at Oklahoma City is not coming close to expediting the learning curve with the way they navigated the ends of those games and knowing how tight they were. The margin for error was so slim. And the Knicks were making all the plays. They weren't making any of them. They're— nothing will expedite their growth more than the way that their season ended.
Before we go, where do you want Giannis to go?
Man, probably Golden State would be like, you know, hey man.
Golden State, are they even in this?
I, I don't know, but I, they, they always came up for Giannis over the last, you know, 2 years and it was like, you'd love to see Curry get something of that level here at the end of his career. That's why I said that. That's more like from just my heart standpoint because I love watching Steph Curry so much and I want a potential for like deeper playoff runs for him, not playing stuff where he's gone in a game or two or even if they make it out of that, what, what, what's, what are they facing? A buzzsaw. So, more help for him to give Steph Curry a greater chance to have meaningful series and playoff moments at the end of his career.
I like that. I, my guess is they end up with Anthony Davis, Golden State. I don't know why, it's just, it's just in the back of my head. I've landed on, I don't want the Celtics to trade Jaylen Brown, for you honest.
Okay.
Which I felt, I felt that way the whole month, but the more I, I, I, I just, I can't, I can't, can't get there. I also don't think Miami— I don't like the trade for Milwaukee or Miami. That trade that everybody's been batting around, I, I actually don't like it for either team. If I'm trading Giannis, I don't like what I'm getting back. I'm not getting one thing I can point at. And if I'm Miami, I've traded all this stuff away so I can have Giannis and Bam, and I don't know where I'm going with that. Can I even win one playoff round? Not to mention— Yeah. Be honest, like how many more years? The thing that scares me is just how many more years can he be elite when he's already been banged up?
And let me ask you a question. What percentage of the people that love the Celtics, right, fans would agree with what you just said about you're cool not getting him? 'Cause you would probably go with Jalen Brown.
People like the Jays. The only, I would say it's probably like 3/4 Celtic fans would probably rather just not do anything. And run it back with help of Tatum. Okay. Here's the problem and here's the question, and I don't, the Celtics are gonna have to evaluate this. You had Jaylen get a taste of being the guy and now he has to go back to not being the guy. And once you have the taste of being the guy, can you go back? I think that would be the fear. And maybe he just wants his own team. He hasn't said anything. The Celtics haven't said anything. And I would much rather see those guys keep playing together. I don't even like that Klay's not on Golden State anymore. Like even that, I wish Klay and Draymond and Steph had just managed to, I know why they didn't and I know it got acrimonious, but it's so rare for teams to stay together.
You know? I hear you, man. I hear you. Like they keep, they have it and they, they're winning and they're fun to watch. And like us, you know, guys like us that are watching this and analyzing it and have to do this every night and watch these teams, like you guys, like, or you're a fan of, the group, the style, like whatever. And it's like there's more there. There's more meat on the bone.
Yeah.
They're like, why, why are we, why are we ending this now? I think for, for me with the Jaylen Brown stuff, I think it's a, it's a good point. I mean, and this is kind of how I felt during the year. This for me was probably how I would process it if I were good enough to be Jaylen Brown. I went through that would be, yeah, you know what, bottom line is, man, like I got called, I got, I slid over one seat.— and that's what it looks like. Right. But there's a hell of a lot— there's a hell of a lot that comes with that seat. So like now, okay, he goes back and it's, you know, obviously I don't think anybody's gonna deny it's more like Tatum's, you know, the guy. Jaylen Brown's a great, great player, but at the same time he's like, okay, listen, I rang the bell, man. I validated what my ceiling is, what I believe it is. And but it's okay here to be like 1A next to Jayson Tatum. Too, because Tatum's gonna get ultimately most of that playoff pressure is more on his shoulders than anybody else.
And so I do wonder how Jaylen Brown feels about all that. Is it like, he's like, no, no, hell with that. I don't ever want to go back. I want a team of my own. I know what I'm capable of doing and nothing's ever gonna satisfy him again. Or is it, no, I like playing here. I like Boston. I like Jayson Tatum. I showed what I could do when given the chance. That's good enough for me.
If they were gonna trade him, Milwaukee would not be my Jaylen trade. I would be looking at New Orleans or Atlanta and trying to, you know, especially New Orleans. That's a trade that makes sense in my head where you get Trey, you get Trey Murphy back, Herb Jones, one more contract, maybe you get a pick, but you know, you're recreating basically a different version of what you had with Tatum and Brown, but your contracts are a little better and you, you get more flexibility. Like I'd be thinking that way. I'd— Yeah. To me, I don't— do they win the title if they get Giannis? I just, I don't know if that's the magic elixir and I don't know physically where he is, you know?
Yeah, I, I, I would look at it if I were Boston like this, the way that the, the, you know, look, the Knicks jumped on it and they played incredible basketball at the end of the year and they peaked at the right time.
Yep.
But you still have to go back and you, you have to be honest and just look at the Eastern Conference. Like the, the path was cleared for them with the injury to Tatum. And you know, that was like trying to figure that out late in the year. No Halliburton, obviously Pacers. Yeah. Went there a year ago. Detroit doesn't have enough shooting yet. The Pistons, the Cavs are a team that's got, you know, they've got issues in the postseason, like handling that pressure. Philly's hurt all the time. So if I'm Boston, I'm just looking at it like, yeah, okay, the Knicks, to me, I've seen a lot of lists out there where they put OKC, San Antonio 1, 2 again in terms of league expectations to win it. Boston 3, Knicks 4. I mean, To me, the Knicks have every— have the case to be made that they're gonna run it back and win the Eastern Conference. I think they could absolutely make that case. But if I'm Boston, I'm not sitting here looking at any teams in the East and going, as currently constructed without the Giannis trade, like, we can't hang with those guys.
So I think that's why the comfort zone comes from fans. We know what this looks like, and it's pretty damn close. And now we get Tatum for an entire year coming off the injury rather than just— a partial year. Yeah, we'll take our chances of that. Of course you need to improve your roster. They're gonna need to improve and we'll see what way they do that.
They have a $27 million trade exception. They have some tradable smaller pieces. Like they'll be better than they were last year. Last year was, they always called it the quote unquote gap year, but in some ways it was. They got rid of Horford and Simons.
I'm putting the Knicks as the favorite right now to win the Eastern Conference.
You should.
I'm putting the Knicks as Yeah, that— I mean, it's like, but it's amazing. I'm looking at some stuff that's written out there. They're not doing that. I'm like, what? I don't get it, man. The way that they just played and like that last series was a grind it out. They fell behind, but they still found ways to win. But prior to that, like they were playing damn near perfect basketball and, and they end up winning a championship in 5 games against the team that won 62 with that kind of young talent. Like for me, the Knicks should be the team that's placed at the top of the pecking order in Eastern Conference going into the season. Now let's see what these other teams do to address their needs. Awesome. And close that gap.
Brunson's the best player in the conference. He is, it wasn't just, oh, I had this great postseason. He's done this 4 years in a row now. He's averaging 29 points a game for 4 straight playoffs. Like, this is who he is. They have a team built around him. The only thing I would worry about with the Knicks is, you know, Pat Riley called it the disease of more. Everybody's super unselfish when you're trying to win a title. You're doing everything, you put your ego aside, but now you won. Doc Rivers, I had Doc Rivers on the pod the other day and he, he called it trophy tour syndrome. You get your trophy for the day, you go back home, every, you have your day with all your people and, you know, then you come back the next year and you're like, all right, now it's my time. And that's usually what happens with this, with champions. Yeah. And that would be the fear.
I'm gonna tell you though, I'm gonna tell you, I don't think that's the makeup of this group of guys. And I've got to spend a lot of time around them.
Yeah.
Covering them, you know, all the way through the playoffs basically, and then certainly the Finals. They just look like they're perfectly in sync with where they're slotted. Yeah. Where they're slotted, each guy, and what they're required to be. And then perfectly fine with this other incredibly special player that they have. Settling things and will contribute to that heavily. And in some nights be one guy more than another. I don't think they're gonna have that particular problem with this group. I, I just don't think that's the makeup of this team.
I think you're right, but I'm not positive because this is the league we have. They also, they're not gonna be able to pay Mitch. I don't think Dolan basically said he's not going second. Don't look like it. So Mitch is out.
Doesn't look like it.
They're gonna have to luck out with the 24th pick, get some sort of big man who, yep. But small problems. All right, Tim Legler, have fun at the draft. I'm excited for your player comps. Just rip 'em off like boom, boom, player comp, boom, player comp. Good to see you. Always a pleasure. Thanks for spending the season with us.
Let's catch up when the smoke clears from the draft and free agency and see where everything's settled and all those trades take play, all that stuff. Can't wait.
We'll reconnect.
All right.
All right, man. Take care, man.
You got it. See you, Bill.
All right, so we're recording this. It is Thursday afternoon Pacific time. There's still some World Cup games happening. Tonight, but we only care about the one by the time people hear this Friday. America, who looked awesome, really truly awesome in the first match. And now Australia on Friday. It's a holiday. It's gonna be a great day. Anthony DiBundo came on a couple weeks ago and he reminded us, I was skeptical. I wasn't that excited about our chances. And you reminded us, hey, we haven't really been healthy in 4 years. Like we have our guys like there, there is a path here. So you're watching that first half. What are you thinking?
I didn't think it would go that well. I don't think even the most optimistic US fan in the world thought that it would go as well, as dominant as the first half was. They made it look so easy. This is a, this is a country that usually struggles with Trinidad, that usually has had issues beating Panama over the last few years, and they're just washing away a pretty good South American team. So I mean, it was the most exciting I've ever been. It was my first ever time going to a World Cup game. First time ever seeing the US score a goal in person. Like amazing, amazing stuff.
All the 1v1 stuff, a striker just like creating holy shit goals and then actually, uh, finishing the kick. It was, it was unbelievable. And even Reyna comes in at the end, right? It, uh, the, the guy from, from a few years ago where, uh, he became the polarizing, like what? He became the big argument guy. They did the documentary. It was barely covered. But even he had a moment, and he might have to have a moment in this Australia game because of course we can't have good things for that long. Pulisic is, who knows? When I see the training by myself story, that makes me nervous. But he was so good in that first half. We thought they took him out 'cause they didn't want him to get hurt in the second half.
That's what I thought too.
You assume Paraguay would be doing the, okay, we're down 3-nothing, we're gonna start taking your guys out. Um, but it turned out he was, he was maybe a little hurt. So what do you, what are you thinking, or how worried are you?
I'm definitely worried. I mean, there are only one or two players that the US can't truly replace, and he's one of them. And it's funny because I was thinking today, okay, so if he doesn't start, who are the guys that replace him? And there is no like for like. I mean, in a perfect world, Gio Reyna can do a lot of the things, but Gio Reyna has barely played soccer for the last 3 years, and he has had some good moments for the US men's national team, like that last-minute goal. But expecting him to just walk in and replace what Pulisic has done is just not realistic. Then it's like, well, maybe it's Berhalter and they play a little more defensive.
Hmm.
That's going to be divisive. Maybe it's Aaronson and they go for the pressing. He's not very creative. So like all, all of a sudden all the excitement. They don't really need Pulisic though for this specific game. They do, but for the tournament, like, this is not their most important game anymore. They need to shift expectations and realize that the later on games are what we really are playing for here.
Well, you know, so they're going to probably do park the bus a little bit, right? Do some counters.
Australia.
Yeah. Yeah. Try to, try to do the 1-0 final. Try to rope us in. That's what they're, Their first win was like that. They didn't have the ball a ton, but when they did have the ball, they made stuff happen. So that would be the recipe. You also have Seattle, a great soccer city.
Yes.
Everyone's gonna be so fired up. It's a holiday. There's so many good things about this game. And I don't know, I've just seen soccer games like this where it's like, oh my God, we've had the ball. Oh, oh no. What ha— what's happening? Oh my God. What did you think of Australia when you watched them that first game?
Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a classic example of like, does this say more about Australia or more about Turkey? I mean, they sat very deep in a very compact block and just made Turkey send in prayer after prayer after prayer, cross after cross, long range. I mean, you know, Turkey has a superstar player, Arda Güler, who attempted 7 shots, all of them from long range. None of them had a chance. They were really frustrating and really effective defensively. And in this system, in this tournament, those kind of teams can be really freaking annoying to play against. But I do think the US, what they showed against Paraguay shows me that they have new ideas for how to break down this system. But it is so reliant on Pulisic, on his ability to retain the ball in dangerous areas. His ability to keep possession in the penalty area has always been his best skill. And now it's like, well, without him, who's going to be the man that beats the man? Is it Dest? Are they going to start Tim Weah? Is it just Balogun kind of like muscling his way through Australians? Because they're a big bunch in the back too.
Yeah, Pulisic was so good in that first half, it almost seemed like we were going to get the rare first half sub for their right back. Like, we gotta get this guy out of here, he's getting torched. Um, and then he wasn't out there in the second half. So the, the two guys that make me nervous on our team— Dest, I just, I wish there was like slightly more there. I don't know. I felt like there was a lot on the table for him in the game I went to. And then Ream's 38. Like Australia has a 20-year-old flyer who's, who had a goal in their first game. And I just, I just can't imagine that's not gonna rear its ugly head at some point during the Cup. The fact that we feel like we're like a great defender short, right?
Probably, yes. And I think that's the big question that like Paraguay and maybe even Australia aren't gonna test. Is like Tim Ream, for all of his, you know, now faults as a defender, is still very good at picking passes out going forward if you just let him stand there on the ball and ping passes all over. And he had 7 long completions in the match against Paraguay, which is nuts. Australia will probably do a better job of marking Tim Ream. They'll probably do a better job of pressing him a little bit. Better teams will do a better job of that. That's where it's like, okay, Can Tim Ream hold up when teams start to press more? That's going to be kind of the stress test that, like, Paraguay just really never gave to the defense. I mean, they scored one goal off a set piece, but there was at no point any stress on this defense. Uh, so that's the big question mark. But, you know, I think that's why they're playing a back three. It's the idea that if you put two really athletic dudes in Richards and Freeman, who cover a lot of ground and who are super smart guys, next to Ream you kind of COVID for him as much as possible.
Right.
Uh, you know, and, and so you hide him. And then, you know, Dest is a funny guy because I love Serginho Dest. I get why he's easy to be like, he, he, he's always in dangerous areas and he often screws it up. But the fact that he's always in dangerous areas means you just cannot forget about him because he will show up in a big moment and create a chance or dribble past a guy. And he really did dribble past players a lot. In that game Friday night, it just— the final touch was rough.
It was rough. Yeah. Well, the big question was what we're getting from Richards, and he was awesome in that game. Amazing. And he passed— basically, he passed all the injury concerns that we had heading into the Cup right to Pulisic, where it was— because I— did you see that, that stat? Like, he— what did he complete? 83 of 83 passes. Yeah, the soccer defender perfect game. You never see that very often. But he also He's such a badass. The way he carries himself, it's really funny. He carries himself like he's like a Ravens linebacker or something.
And you see him walking around. And he did have a header on a set piece too that came close to scoring.
Right. Right.
I mean, he is such a— I mean, look, like we talk about, you know, the classic example of like, what does it look like when the Americans are finally developing bigger and better talent?
Yeah.
And like having a center back who starts every week on a good Premier League team, just ho-hum, goes about his business, nothing flashy. Like that. Those kind of players are what— it's not about having all the superstars in Europe, it's about having more of Chris Richards, right? You get like 3 more Chris Richards across the line. And, and that's, you know, that's the perfect example.
Well, it's almost like when, like, preparing for the NBA draft right now, doing my whole process, and over and over again you come to the same conclusion like 4 days before where you're like, you know what's really nice? Like, swingman who can defend and hit threes. Yeah, it's just OG Anunoby. That's what— you can't really go wrong with that. So like, Marez Johnson now, the Michigan guy, and he's like, oh, he might go 15, 14. Like wherever he goes, somebody's gonna be super happy with him because that's just the kind of guy that plays.
And it's the same thing with—
Plug and play.
There are these certain guys. With that said, Jedi's probably, he's another one that when you in person really feels like the atypical American, just like fucking freak athlete flying.
He's everywhere. He's everywhere. And look, I mean like I know the running joke is like a lot of these guys were not developed in the US, Balogun, Robinson. Tillman, uh, you know, like a lot of these guys were not quote-unquote traditional homegrown players, and we could do a whole podcast on that. But like, Jedi in the Premier League is consistently one of the most active, aggressive, all over the place defenders on that left wing. Yeah, I remember they played Liverpool like 2 years ago and he completely shut down like a prime Mo Salah, and I was like, what am I watching? Like, this is— This is crazy. And then he also had 10 assists. That year. I mean, he, he is, he's a special player and I think he'll be important because inevitably they're gonna need more wide production if they don't have Pulisic in the middle. So Robinson and Dest become even more important than they were in the first match.
And then the striker might be the most talented striker we've ever had. And I like, but yes, Quint Dempsey I think was really reliable. Good. I loved how tough he was and he, I thought was really important just for where US soccer was and where it was trying to go. But this guy's absolutely. This is different.
It's different. It's amazing. And, you know, the one thing with him has always been— and I remember, you know, when I first joined the Ringer, Bill, we, we did, uh, the Copa América, remember, two summers ago? We were a disaster.
Yeah.
And Balogun only played like half the minutes because he got hurt. And even you texting our group chat, like, watch how he's moving. It's, it's so different from how the other guys are moving around the pitch. And that's how you feel when you watch him and, and no matter what his finishing has always been, he's always had the shots. And the analytics nerds and the scouts will always say, if you get the shots, we'll worry about the finishing later. Just get the shots. And his shot numbers have been amazing in France, and now he's carrying that into, into the US. And 2 goals, I think he had 4 shots in the first game. So just amazing.
Well, like you, I've, all I've been doing is watching World Cup. I love it. I, I love gambling on it. I just love that there was that one game the other night that was on it, like Midnight Pacific time. That was amazing. What was it? Jordan, Austria, or whatever the fuck was that? Yeah, it's all starting to blend together.
I started to say that was a classic.
Oh, it was a really good game though for how late at night it was. But you know, and you, you're just watching all these different guys and the ones that jump out over and over again are like the, the left or right back that's just fucking flying up and down constantly and never gets tired. Or like, you know, the forward who he's just kind of hanging around and then all of a sudden he's got that stop start. Boom. And that's what Balogun has. Like, he's kind of lurking, looking, boom, he's, he's off. But then, and then on top of everything else, you get to watch what Messi did the other night and it's like, oh yeah, that's, and that's the other version of the sport where he is just levitating above everybody. I mean, that was one of the great random sports experiences. I certainly wasn't expecting that to be like the highlight of the summer, but it was even up there with the Finals games. That was unbelievable. Yeah.
You talking about Messi?
The hat trick. Yeah. Just, just pours the—
Watching his son in the goal.
He played my daughter whenever, you know, my daughter was always a striker and we always had this joke called, it was called Rufus goals. 'Cause our, our dog Rufus who died 10 years ago. But if you put food on the, the counter and if you left it for 2 seconds, he would just kind of sneak over and grab it and go. And so we always talk the same with soccer. Like the best strikers, like they're, or best forwards, best anything, they're always in the position to just kind of jump on the counter and grab a goal. And that second goal he had was my favorite one of the three because he's just kind of over there. He's reading, oh, this might be a rebound bounce. And he's already moving to where the bounce is and nobody's even reacting yet. And he's just putting it in. It's like the easiest goal we had, but he's just a second and a half ahead of where everyone else is mentally.
And that's despite the fact that he just— it's so funny when they don't have the ball, right? When you watch him and you see him in the corner of the screen and he's just walking around like it's a Sunday men's league, like he's just trying to get his steps in. And then the minute he gets the ball—
He's calculating everything.
He makes 2 little runs, 1 little dart, 1 dribble, 1 shot, and you're like, oh shit. I mean, Argentina in the first 28 minutes of that match, did not have a touch in the penalty area of Algeria, but they were up 1-0 because Messi's like, I don't need to go in the penalty area. I'll score from 25 yards out. Screw that.
Why bother with that? And on top of it, like the, that, I mean, the thing that makes the guys truly, truly great, no matter what sport you're talking about, is like, it's performance, but also like performance. It's the artistry of it. It's all these people in Kansas City. It's Mahomes in the luxury suite and they're all there to see him. Right. And that's like almost drives him up to make him greater. Whereas like poor Ronaldo, he's out there and you, you called it on the pod we did before the Cup started, but it's like, yeah, this is Aaron Rodgers, Pittsburgh kind of territory potentially. And it was worse than that cuz he, he cost them the game. I mean, he, he had, I felt like opportunities that normal people would make at this level and he just didn't cash in on any of them.
It's so funny cuz you, a lot of the people that are trying to defend Ronaldo are saying, well, it's not just his fault. Right. The performance was bad all around. And like, their wingers have problems. Portugal has issues. But it's like what you said, the best strikers always find ways to get shots, to get space, to make those little runs, those little movements where they can get separation and get shots off. That's just always been true. And that wasn't the case for Ronaldo, uh, yesterday against Congo. They, they, he was never able to separate. He's not running in behind. He's not coming short. He's not linking the play. It's like, hopefully the cross finds his head, uh, because they had a lot of the ball. They do a whole lot with it. Uh, but I mean, you know, a couple of days ago when, when Mbappé scores twice and Haaland scores twice and Messi scores 3 times all in one day, and then like you said, we get the, the Austria-Jordan midnight— I mean, it's one of the greatest days for stars in the history of the World Cup, right? We get 4 games every day, and then pretty soon it's going to be 6 games a day for a few days.
And you didn't even mention the England game. Kane was incredible in that game. Doing these 40-yard fucking dart passes. I got to watch that one with CR. We were enjoying it. And then, and the corner kicks for England. I mean, I know that was, the guy was on Arsenal, that was one of their calling cards. But nothing, nothing really floats my boat like just a great corner kick right in the, right in the box.
A routine.
They ran a pick and roll. Just like fucking boom. And the guys are wide open over and over again somehow. And it's the most underrated part of this. But there's no other, What else is like this? It's almost like maybe special teams in football where Belichick was trying to get like advantage with special teams. And it's this thing that it's like, oh yeah, and you should be good at special teams. And he's like, no, actually we're gonna like flip games with special teams. That was one of the biggest reasons the '01 Patriots won. And these corner kicks, free kicks, you see it over and over again in the World Cup. Like the, the putting the ball in the box in the right areas and doing the little—
Boxing out the keeper. Yeah, it was— John Stones literally set up, if you go watch the replay, that goal, John Stones is setting what, what would be called a moving screen. Right, with the NBA, just so he can get Kane free a little bit. And all he needs is a couple yards, one header, 2-1. Uh, it's so funny because I watched with the Fozcast guys. Yeah, Ben Foster. And they're, they're awesome. And getting into the psyche of the English fan, I mean, you were with CR, so yeah, how was CR feeling before the match?
Um, confident. A little, he's a little worried about the back three. Um, but they have a lot of firepower. They do. They really do. They, they have all kinds of ways that they can create goals, and they're really fun to watch. I think If you're an England fan, it's, it's weird to watch this team that can be kind of explosive, but they feel a little bit explosive, right?
So with the Fozcast guys, none of them were that confident. I talked to a random England fan outside of SoFi. He was like, yeah, you know, I think we can make the semis. I'm like, you don't think you can win? He goes, no. Like English fans, I think more than maybe any other fan base, and maybe because they've been, you know, so close yet so far, they just don't have the same level of of irrational optimism about their team. So a lot of nervous energy. And then Kane misses the penalty and they're all like, oh shit, here we go again. Like, this is how it's gonna go.
The rarely seen callback. They, they nailed the goalkeeper. It never happens.
He was, he was about half of a toe off the line. Nothing, you can't get away with anything anymore. But, and then in the second half they went for it. I mean, England fans have been crying out for this. They have so much talent. And they, they play scared under Gareth Southgate. It's all like, defend the lead, defend the lead, defend the lead. And Tuchel went into halftime and said, eff it. Like, we're going for this. What do we have to lose? And they came out and played an incredible second half. So I think England has vaulted themselves into the favorites conversation if they weren't already there. And I think, you know, them, Spain, and France are still a tier above. But, uh, maybe, maybe USA should be in that second tier. I don't know.
One thing they did, England, that I loved, I loved the hockey line change for the forwards. It's one of my favorites. You can't do it if it's like a Premier League team, probably. But if it's the World Cup and you have a deep roster and a bunch of awesome guys, it's just kind of fun. Like, hey, we're going— you guys go all out, 20— last 20 minutes of the game. And, uh, and they were able to get one. But that was fun. Who was the best team? What's weird about the World Cup is like, Paraguay might actually be good. We just gotta go early on them, right? And their whole strategy is like, you know, they want it to be 0-0 after 70 minutes and —and all of a sudden they're on their heel. All of a sudden it's 2-0 and like their game's blown up. I don't know if they're good or not. So we, we've only seen, you know, 90 minutes of each of these teams, but who really jumped out to you?
France for the last half hour put together a— they showed a ceiling that I don't think any team has. And you know, they made some tactical changes. The first half was embarrassing. They were terrible. They, they— Michael Olisée, who is one of the best players in the world. Was just kind of standing out on the wing all alone like, hey, hey guys, I'm over here. And then the coach was like, all right, let's move you centrally in the second half. Let's get you involved because you are our best passer. And then the whole game changed. I mean, he's dribbling past guys. He makes the pass to Kylian Mbappé for the first goal. He just changes the game. And it's like, well, you know, France, you could do this from the first minute. You could play like this all the time. But Deschamps is like, we like to defend. We don't like to press. Well, the halftime was funny.
Thierry Henry at halftime was just fucking sullen. It's really interesting, these halftime shows with the, you know, they just gravitate toward just famous guys from different countries and—
Oh, it's great.
They're so bitter if it's— if the game's not going well, he almost couldn't talk that he's gonna snap the Laos.
Zlatan might kill Laos.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
At the end of the tournament. Like, I don't, I almost like, I don't usually like to watch, but now I kind of feel like I have to watch because I never know when Zlatan's just gonna start throwing haymakers. At Lalas. It's been an interesting tournament for the Fox studio crew.
If you watch the body language, and I've been on these shows, like Zlatan is like, you know, Lalas is here. Zlatan's like this, and it's almost like he's turning his back on him. It's really nuts. Really is. Like, it seems like he despises him. Who knows? I don't know.
And then Landon makes the comment right about how he felt France was, was quote arrogant in the first half, which I thought there were tactical issues more than their effort. And then Lalas tried to back him up and repeat it. And Zlatan has this incredible moment where he's just like, and by the way, it's not arrogance, it's confidence.
Right.
It's confidence. And I'm just like, what is going on? These guys are going to— this is uncomfortable, but it's also electric at the same time because Zlatan does not give a shit. He doesn't care at all.
Yes. Usually the studio shows should feel like people were invited at a dinner to sit at the same table together. 'Cause you knew the conversation would be good. The Fox studio shows, they feel like, uh, it was a dinner where everybody pulled numbers out of a hat. It's like, oh, I'm at table 18. I'm table— Zlatan's over there. And then, then there's just like no chemistry at all at the table. 'Cause they've never ever hung out. The, the— I had the plus one in that France game with the underdog. I forget all these. Senegal. Yeah. Senegal. And then they got it. They got the goal. And then Mbappé fucking like a minute later killed it. But the World Cup, there was a day where— what was it? 4 draws in a row. It was like, yes, $100,000 if you bet $100 on the, on the parlay.
The 2026 redrawables World Cup edition.
Yes. Unbelievable. Yeah, that was fun. Okay.
Not all draws are created equal. I mean, Cape Verde drawing Spain. That was so—
I only saw the second half of that game. The guy was levitating over the goal, just blocking shit. He was doing it for DSP.
He's up to 7.5 million Instagram followers.
Yeah, that was great.
After he had 50,000 before kickoff. He's 40 years old. And then apparently the department, the Secretary of State, like they arranged for his mother to get a visa so she can make the trip for the next game. So she gets to see him live. The World Cup is a really cool, Really cool thing, 'cause these random pop-up stories just come out of nowhere, and all of a sudden we're, like, enthralled by it.
Well, the number one thing that happened for people in my life was Scotland taking over Boston in the best possible way. And it was just a week-long love fest. Everybody loved them. They were just drinking and walking around and having a great time, basically drinking all the beer out of Boston.
Mm-hmm.
And it went so well that, um, they announced there's gonna be some sort of partnership between Glasgow and Boston. The Boston Bear announced today, like, we're going to actually try to figure out some sort of thing. It was really amazing because Boston's pretty Irish, you know, but that's pretty Irish. Yeah. I was going to say, I didn't know how the Scots were going to go, but the Scots were like, hey, we love drinking too. And they, and from that moment it was on and they really took over the city. So that, that was really fun. All right. So tournament, we're doing this. It's Thursday. There's 2 games left today. France is now +410 on FanDuel as the favorite. Spain's 5-to-1, England's 6-to-1, Argentina's 8-to-1, Portugal's +950. I'll book that bet myself. Brazil, 11-to-1. I didn't think they look great either.
Nope.
And then it kind of goes on down. You were, you know, there's a couple of those middle teams like Morocco. I think US is now in that. US is down to 40-to-1. That maybe there's more there than what we saw in the first game. But that, that top, top 4 feels like the 4, right? France, Spain, England, Argentina.
Yep.
That would be my 4. So if you had to cram one other team into that 4, who would it be?
Germany.
Okay. Germany's way down there. They're 14 to 1. What'd you like about Germany?
So the, the, we didn't learn a ton about Germany when they played Curaçao, right? Germany traditionally is a flat track bully. They like to pummel. The teams that are a little bit lesser, and they are built to do that. The reason Germany's odds are so low is that if they win their group and France wins their group, they will play each other on the, on the Fourth of July in Philly in the round of 16. So we have this clash of, of two, what I think are top 5 teams, and I would put Brazil and Portugal in the kind of figuring it out phase, uh, potentially playing each other as early as the round of 16. France could then also play semifinals against Spain. So like Germany's path will be very, very difficult and I'm not really sure if their defense is good enough.
We haven't said that possible. What's finish second instead of first situation? It is, it is.
That's hard to engineer. Yeah. Because then you don't really know where you're gonna end up in the bracket and things get a little bit weirder. And like, you know, France is gonna play Norway on the final day, so would they tank it? Like, I can't, I can't imagine that. Like, I don't think they're, they're thinking that far ahead. Um, but it, it would probably be wise to if you were Germany. Like, we, we, we'll avoid France, thank you very much. Uh, but that would be a fascinating matchup. I just don't know if Germany's defense is good enough. It's been their problem for multiple cycles. That's why they haven't made it out of the group stage the last two World Cups. But they have an incredible manager, they have an incredible attacking group, they could score on anybody. They're gonna be in the mix.
Yeah, cuz US is in this situation where if they finish first, Yep. They play the runner-up from B, E, F, I, or J. I don't even know what those teams are, but if they finish—
Yeah, it's the third-place team, right, yeah.
If they finish second, they play the runner-up of Group G, which is Belgium, Egypt, Iran, and New Zealand. I mean, that sounds great.
Exactly.
I mean, I'd rather finish first, obviously, but even finishing second, that sounds like an ideal situation.
So if they come in second though, here's where it gets trickier. Your round of 32 game is probably easier. No, that is— But then in the round of 16, it's probably Argentina.
Oh God.
So we would prefer to avoid them. If they get first, maybe a little tougher round of 32 because you could— the third place teams, I mean, who knows, it's too early. But the round of 16, you could potentially play Belgium, who showed a lot of cracks in their first game against Iran. So, or against Egypt rather. So you, you're like, well, now we're talking. Like, you get Belgium on home soil, revenge for 2014. Yeah. Chris Wandelowski revenge game, the Tim Howard ain't walking through that door game, and you beat them. Like, I mean, I, like, if you put betting odds up right now, I don't think they would be huge underdogs at all. I think they'd be close to a toss-up with Belgium.
So if you knew Pulisic was 100% healthy right now, and he's obviously not, but if he was, if we were just healthy right now, like what, what's the ceiling for you with how excited you would be to like Final Four, Final Eight level run for this team just off that one game?
It's, it's literally how far can we go until we have to play France, Spain, England, or, or Argentina. Like that, that's it. It's, it's quite frankly a matter of like, okay, there are levels to this game and the US is gonna need some luck to beat one of those teams. And I don't know if I trust the defense and the goalie enough for that kind of challenge, right? That's where Paraguay doesn't really test you. So we're gonna have to find out. But yeah, like, if they're in the round of 16 against Belgium and they win, why not? And then maybe there's an upset, and instead of playing Spain in the quarters, you're playing Uruguay or Colombia. Then it's like, well, we'll take our chances there, right? I think it really comes down to the draw. It's too early to say, but just on performance alone, it would be hard to not say the US isn't playing in sort of that back end of the top 10 range. because the Dutch looked just okay. The Belgians looked just okay. Like, none of those teams are jumping off the screen.
I agree. Not at all.
Yeah.
On Fanduel, USA to make last 16, -220. Quarters—
Did you bet? Did you bet with us last week?
Well, that was the -130, right?
Yeah.
Was that— so that's -120. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't wanna have any money on US. I just wanted to enjoy it. I didn't feel like I needed to add, but I might actually go in on, on that, uh, if, if they finish first in the group that game. Uh, quarterfinals is +180 and semis is +550, which is— I mean, think about that. They used to be 12-to-1 betting.
I'll just say we're roughly 37% to make the final 8 of the World Cup. It's not that far off.
Do you know off, off top of your head where the last 16 and the quarterfinals games would even be? I guess we wouldn't know because the group's set, but is there, is there a way to have any idea?
Yeah. So if they win the group, their first knockout game will be in Santa Clara. Uh, uh, that, that would be the first game. And then once they won that, uh, they would play in Seattle July 6th. No, we're going once they win that, Bill. We're very—
I like this. Okay. You're doing the Jalen Brunson.
When they win the first round of 32 game, they would go back to Seattle. On July 6th for their round of 16 game. If— now we'll go if— if they won that, they would be in the quarterfinals July 10th back at SoFi.
So July 6th, Seattle.
Yeah.
Normally an absolute dead time of the year for sports where all the NBA free agents have signed. Wimbledon is still— we're, we're getting near the end or— Yeah, we're almost at the end. With Wimbledon and holiday weekend, we're, we're right at the point where we're, we're wondering where all the really fun tennis players went. That's around July 6th. Like, oh man. Yep. Wish we had like 2 more fun tennis players.
Like Serena and Venus Williams.
Yeah. We talked about that the last time you were on and they were playing doubles. We're gonna see Serena at the US Open. I, I wish, I wish I was a fan of that. If you come back, I actually would, my wife would want to go to that. We love, we're a big Serena house, so. I, uh, that might be—
Get together with Schrager. He'll be in town, I'm sure.
This was before you were born, but the, the two great moments of, and I used to love tennis, but, uh, McEnroe at the Open and Connors at the Open were the two runs where I felt like the crowd just kind of grabbed them and grabbed them by the neck and pulled them through some of the points in the sets. And I, the Serena thing would be the set, the crowd would be, can you imagine playing against her? In the US Open, like, like the, you would have to be one of the best 5 players in the world, like locked in. I don't think anyone else would be able to beat her.
Yeah. So I had the, the luck, the, the absolute all-time luck box of my friends and I decided one year we're gonna go in on Friday night tickets on Ashe before the draw, before Serena said this is my, we bought those tickets and it ended up being Serena's last match.
Oh wow.
So we got to go to see her play Ila and like that Yeah. Crowd was the coolest tennis crowd I've ever been a part of. Even when she, you know, when she came back and she won the one set and it was like, holy shit, she's gonna win again.
Yeah.
Then she loses the third set and it's kind of sad. But like the whole crowd, the, the euphoria of that night was one of the most special nights I've ever had as a tennis fan. So the fact that we're gonna do it again, like 4, what is it, 4 years later?
It's the only thing in tennis you're allowed to do from a non-sportsmanship standpoint is if it's a situation like that, if it's the old lion trying to hold on, it's just understood. The crowd just gets to root for them and cheer when you double faulted and all, all that shit comes into play. Otherwise, otherwise, no. Well, the USA thing will be amazing. And then you were in New York today for the parade.
Just sort of, yeah.
Ran by there. You were in the office. Technically around. You were in like where everything was, was starting, right? Just the entire city.
I made the mistake of, of not thinking ahead. I was like, I want to go to New York, I'm going to watch England with the Fozcast guys. I have a couple friends I wanted to see when I was in New York, so I got together with them last night. And then this morning, once I got to the office yesterday, people were talking about the parade. I'm like, oh, where's the parade? They're like, oh, it's coming right down this street. I'm like, you got to be kidding me. Yeah, like, this is going to be an absolute madhouse tomorrow morning. So I managed to get in and out. I saw parts of it, and I was very happy to kind of escape.
What was the madhouse on a scale of 1 to 10? Like a 9?
It— like I said, it's not my team, so— nor were the Eagles, I guess, when they won. But I compared to that in the sense that when the Eagles first won, I was in Syracuse at the time, and I was the only one that had a car of my freshman friends from Philly. So I was like, okay, I'll drive home. We drove home at 2 in the morning. We get there at 6:30, 7 o'clock, people are already drinking. Yeah. By 9 o'clock you can tell people are already drunk. And it, it's just a, a huge party for, for something that had, had been so much time in the waiting. So I'm so happy for all of my Knicks friends. And now I'm back to disliking the Knicks again. I'm glad they had their moment. Happy for 'em, was rooting for 'em. It's over.
It's one of only like maybe 10 excuses to just be hammered at 10 in the morning.
Yes. It's a very, very short list. That in New York, it's like the Big East tournament.
Yeah. And the Knicks football tailgates are great. Yeah. All right. So give us your USA predictions before we go. I am predicting— okay, go ahead. No, go Australia for this specific game. No, just give us what— give us the— give us your updated predictions.
Okay. US is going to make the quarterfinals and lose to Spain. That is my official prediction. They are going to win their first two knockout games, get to that quarterfinal, and then, you know, maybe water finds its level and they were like, okay, yeah, like there's there's a gap here. Like, their midfield gets a little exposed, their defense— trying to watch Jedi against Lamine Yamal would be really fun, but I think Spain gets past them. So that's my official now prediction. However, like, I think they're going to win the group, and a draw tomorrow is not a bad result. On Friday, if they get a draw against Australia, they keep control, they stay in first place going into the final match. Pulisic stays healthy, maybe he gets the night off, that's fine, that's okay, it's not the end of the world. It will, it will kill some momentum. But in the grand scheme of the tournament, it's fine.
I'll take it. We move. All right. DeBundo, good to see you. Enjoy the game tomorrow. Have a great weekend. Go USA. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Tim Legler. Thanks to DeBundo. Thanks to Gajao and Eduardo as well. I'm gonna be back on Sunday, um, going live on Netflix at some point during the day. I'll tweet out the exact time. Uh, go USA. I'll see you on Sunday. Must be 21+ and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18+ and present in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope Is Here, visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.
The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Tim Legler to preview the NBA draft. Then, Anthony Dabbundo joins the pod to recap the World Cup matches so far, including the USMNT’s impressive 4-1 win against Paraguay, and discuss many other topics related to the tournament.
(0:00) Intro
(2:27) NBA draft questions with Tim Legler
(01:02:42) Harper vs. Fox
(01: 23:57) Favorite Giannis landing spot
(01:33:13) World Cup talk with Anthony Dabbundo
Host: Bill Simmons
Guests: Tim Legler and Anthony Dabbundo
Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo
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