Transcript of New York Wins the Title, Brunson Wins Immortality, and Knicks Fans Have a Zihuatanejo Moment With Zach Lowe New

Meditieren, Yoga, Joggen— nichts entspannt mich. Echt? Mich entspannt meine Steuer total. Steuer? Wie Finanzamt? Die Steuererklärung? Ja, ich hab ganz locker über 1000 Euro zurückbekommen. Hast du geheime Connections? Nö, nur die WISO Steuer App. Wow! Und das ist einfach? Klar, die macht fast alles automatisch. Plötzlich fühle ich mich so entspannt. Hol dir dein Geld zurück. Tiefenentspannt mit WISO Steuer. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by PayPal. You know a clutch move when you see one. A no-look pass, a buzzer beater, a big steal. Well, imagine if your wallet could pull off moves like that. That, my friends, is PayPal. Right now you can find offers from hundreds of brands like Sony, Allbirds, and Viater, and save offers before you check out. Earn unlimited rewards. Plus you can add those rewards on top of credit card points. Now that is clutch. Download the PayPal app today. Save those offers. Start scoring rewards. Terms and exclusions apply. See paypal.com/rewardsterms. Credit card points subject to issuers' terms and conditions. The Bill Simmons Podcast live on Netflix. It is late. It is almost midnight East Coast time. I'm here with, uh, I don't know, are you groggy, Zach Lowe?

Not groggy? Medium groggy? After that, not groggy at all.

I'm a little, I'm a little too amped, so let's do it.

Great. By the way, new rewatchables coming on Sunday night. Now it is From Hell Month and it's gonna be Hand That Rocks the Cradle. So get ready for that. And then we're gonna go back to a somewhat normal podcast schedule because the Knicks have won the NBA title. It's been 53 years. This is, we'll start with the Knicks, then we gotta go to Brunson 'cause I can't believe what I just watched tonight from him. I think with the Knicks, other than the fans and the drought being over and the way the city rallied around the team and people traveling to the games and just how much over and over again they're fighting back to win these games, you know, these teams win the title and then you look back years later and you're like, ah, they, yeah, yeah, the 2019 Raptors, what was their gimmick? What was their thing? This Knicks team, we're just gonna remember it instantly. It's gonna be Brunson and comebacks and the Knicks fans. And it just was an indelible, indelible playoff run. 15-1 in the last 16. One of the best. What, what was the last team that you remember just grabbing the 2014 Spurs?

What was the last one where you're just like, holy shit, I can't believe it came together like that for them?

In terms of, in terms of style and everything just clicking into place and them finding, I mean, finding a magical, something magical happened to the Knicks at the absolute perfect time. They found the best version of themselves, a better version they had found at almost any point in the regular season, locked it in and sustained it, sustained it through different kind of games, through foul trouble, through slumps, through different opponents. It's a magical thing that happened to them. And I think the 2014 Spurs comp is the right one in terms of style. Like, you know that when you see it, we were both at those Spurs Heat games and it was like, it's a wrap. Like, this is, this is nirvana. Like the Heat don't even know where the freaking ball is. Different style, but stylistically coming together and having that magic and just like, how do you, don't mess with it, just sustain it. Just keep it. But in terms of like indelible single season champions, like, like the ring feels a little extra special or for whatever reason. I, I think you go back to the 2011 Mavs for different reasons. A team, a team that stands out as just a super memorable single season champion.

I think this team, ironically having taken a player from the, a different version of the Dallas Mavericks will stand out like that for a ton of different reasons that we'll get into.

And one of the things I thought the Spurs had a more talented team. And then it was a case of, are they gonna figure out they're better than this Knicks team? And then by game 5, it's like the Knicks are better than the Spurs. But like, it's like, like, I know how this game, I was sitting next to my wife watching it, who was on her phone half the time. And they're up, Spurs are up 12, they're up 15, they're up 9. And I'm like, the Knicks are, they're gonna come back. Like, watch what happens with Brunson here. She, she was like, wow, you have like ESP with this Brunson thing. And I'm like, it's not ESP. This is, this is what he does. You could just see him kind of lurking and waiting, and then he took over the game at the perfect times. Nobody on the Knicks— who else played well on their team? Like, sort of Bridges for half the game, maybe. Did, did anyone else play well? Josh Hart had a couple moments. Like, who?

I mean, this is one of the coolest things about the team is that even in a game, it's like, first of all, it speaks to their strength as a team that for the second game in a row and almost the third one in the series, The nightmare scenario that we all were talking about before the series, whether you picked the Knicks or not, unfolded, which was KAT foul trouble, Mitchell Robinson not quite the same guy 'cause of the broken finger, broken whatever. Huck Portis gotta play all of a sudden and they win these games anyway and they won't—

Shai got hurt, looked like he was done.

Brunson turns his ankle. Oh, by the way, twice ankle injuries, Knicks players down, Spurs get baskets out of it on 5-on-4, right? Like,. But the nightmare scenario was, can the Knicks center rotation hold up if Towns gets into foul trouble? He's been in foul trouble 3 games in a row. They won 2 of 'em, including these last 2. And look, like Alvarado didn't have a game tonight, but Jordan Clarkson comes in and makes a basket. Hug Porte actually had like a couple moments. Yeah. In the game, Mitchell Robinson, who's been not quite the same guy in the series, has a 6 offensive rebounds, including the free throw offensive rebound. Like people have moments. And, and, and Alvarado had a moment in game 4. And that's what makes a champion is like, even in this game where you're kind of correctly saying it was Brunson just dragging them over the finish line with one tough shot after another, guys had moments, role players who they needed. They just did little things that helped them just get it over the finish line. Just gotta get one more game. And they found a way to get one more game against a team that was again up 16.

In the first, in the second quarter of the game.

2011 Mavs, a little bit similar where they had the one great player who was like the, the major planet that everybody orbited around. But remember that team where like Terry hit the biggest shot of Game 5? There was some, who was it? DeShawn Stevenson was in there, Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion. You go on to Jason Kidd, everybody had like their—

yeah, yeah.

They had, everybody had their little moments where they chipped in. 2014 Spurs was the totality. This one was a little different 'cause of Brunson, who we're, we're saving 'cause we're gonna talk to him in a second. I, I think this was the greatest team-building title that we've seen since the two Isiah Pistons teams. And now even with those, and that was, there's a great book written about those teams called The Franchise, which I think is one of the best NBA books. But even that team had Isiah, who was, I can't remember if he was second pick of the draft in 1981. So they did have the blue chip guy. The Knicks had a, the blue chip guy in Towns, but they traded for him. It was all signs and trades. It was one of those things where they, the, the team that kind of probably came the closest to this was the Suns in '21, where they kind of patched it together. Booker was, I don't even think a top 10 pick, and Ayton was their one version of Towns who they drafted. But, the degree of difficulty of just putting the team together, making two ballsy moves, right?

Firing Tibbs last year, the Towns trade. Both of them were, were real, I'm gonna double down on a, a 9 kind of moves. And then some luck with, with Toronto souring on Brunson. I mean, I'm sorry, on Anunoby, who they could have kept and they were just like, we've seen enough and they traded him and I remember being 50/50 on it at the time, being like, eh, I don't know either. I don't know what to make of Anunoby. And then Dallas not locking down Brunson. And those are the two big ones. But who do you remember in the last, like this century, who did a better job of putting together a championship team than this?

I mean, look, it's all like, you know, do you, how much credit do you give the Heat for clearing the cap space and getting the Big Three to come, right? There's so many different ways of team building. The Raptors sort of bit by bit by bit, and then they make the big swing for Kawhi knowing he's probably gonna leave. You mentioned the Pistons. I think the 2004 Pistons probably deserve a mention in terms of like, that's a great one. Just like, like getting Chauncey mid-career, drafting Ben Wallace, or getting, I'm sorry, getting Ben Wallace, trading for Ben Wallace from Orlando, I think trading for Rip Hamilton and, and just like finding something that added up and getting Sheed as the last piece in the door. I think that's another one. That comes to mind. I mean, there are just so many different ways to do it, but yeah, it's, this is a masterpiece. And they bit by bit just targeted guys that they knew were gonna play hard, were gonna play selflessly. They targeted size around Brunson, which is the one way you could do it and really make it work, protect him from all sides.

And then KAT was the upside moonshot at the end where it's like, we have this team that's pretty good. There's risk built into this trade contractually and defensively and whatever. But his shooting is gonna raise our ceiling potential to a point where we've gotta actually try it. And it all kind of clicked into place.

And then the Brunson piece of this, so I thought it was interesting he ended on 45 points cuz I wrote down on my notes during the fourth quarter, like, I know it's different scenario, nobody's Jordan, but it was a similar kind of vibe to that last Jordan game where I think the Bulls scored 89, Jordan had 45 of those. Brunson scored 45. He actually got fouled with 8 seconds left. They didn't call it. It was an incredible no-call. The ball ends up with Bridges, but that would've pushed him above the 45. But 29 in the second half, 15 straight at one point when they really, like, Towns was in foul trouble. I didn't know where the points were coming from unless he did it. And he's gotten to the point where he is like, he's gonna lock in, watch this. And they were tough shots. He's getting the basket in traffic. He's going by Harper and Castle who were like, I think, elite defenders. He's getting where in his spots and he was just able to weather the storm for them. And as soon as it was 83-83, you knew they were gonna win the game.

But this is, this Brunson thing, we were talking about all-time Knicks, talking about, you know, could he be the greatest Knick of all time? I'm not ready to have that conversation yet, but why not? This is one. Well, I, I guess we could, 'cause this was one of the great final performances. Of all time. So maybe, maybe we could, maybe Clyde Frazier's like, I'm willing to step aside, take the reins. Or Willis Reed.

It's, it's Clyde or him. I mean, like, look, I grew up with Ewing and it longevity-wise, Ewing's gonna have numbers that I don't think Brunson could ever touch. But like, this is 45 points and a Finals MVP is worth like 15,000 regular season points for the biggest city franchise that hasn't won a title in 53 years. I mean, I don't know what else to say. It was a Jordan-esque performance. And one of the things I wrote in my notes was, I mean, this is right up your wheelhouse. Is Jalen Brunson the greatest underdog story in the history of basketball? Like small guard, second round pick, doubted every step of the way, free agency signing, lukewarm to negative reception, and he is now scoring 45 points in a decisive Finals game and winning Finals MVP. I mean, I don't even know I, I don't, I'm trying to think like, who else is even in the conversation?

Yeah. Well, probably nobody had more points where he was doubted as a great player over the course of his career, even leading up to the Finals, right? Where you're like, I, I picked the Spurs to win the series, and one of the reasons I picked them was 'cause I thought that it was just a great matchup for them against Brunson. They had all these guys to throw at him and they'd Wemby behind them. And in the first couple games, I was right. And he solved them as the series went along. And I, I'm not sure, I'm not sure what he solved. Like, it, there was this great interview after the game when he could barely speak. It was one of the most authentic athlete interviews we've had in a long time. 'Cause we're so used now to people milking it, or it, not that it seems rehearsed, but people being very aware of how they're being perceived in the moment after they won. And, and he like, he couldn't speak and then he finally, I was talking about the fourth quarter about, I just went back to all the hours I've spent in the gym, all those times, all the hard work I put in.

And I was out there and I was just thinking like, this is like, I'm by myself in the gym. I'm by myself in the gym. And it really did feel that way. Um, it was just, there's been very few guys since I've known you and very few guys since I've followed the league that seem to get better when you need them to get better. It's the rarest, rarest trait we have in basketball. And he has it. It was incredible.

I mean, there have been other great second round picks, like Ginobili stands out, but he, he was never the guy on a team like this. No. And there, but other small-ish guard, like Steph Curry in some ways is an underdog story. Like goes to Davidson, he's a top 10 pick in the draft. And, and by the time he reaches the finals is like an MVP winner.

There, I don't— Draymond, Jokic, I guess was a second round pick, but he's, he's European.

Jokic would be one.

But we, we, we were in on Jokic in the, by the 2018 range. We were like, this guy's got it. He's special.

Yeah. I mean, there is not, there's nothing like 2 years. I mean, there's 2 years before Jalen Brunson wins the title. There is a very loud debate about whether he can be the guy on a championship team. And there was a little bit of that with Jokic because of his defense, but not, not quite as much. And I just think the small stature it's just, there's nothing I can remember that's, that's like it. And, and again, it's not just that he's the best player on a title team, it's that he just scored 45 points in a game where his team scored 94. And there just should not have been a way for the Knicks to win in San Antonio a game where Karl-Anthony Towns has 2 points and 5 turnovers in 23 minutes because of foul trouble. It's like unthinkable. That they were able to win a game like that.

And, and no bench points for 2 hours.

Just like, yeah, where's— I, I checked this box score at the half and I was like, oh my God, they don't have a bench point. And then after that, I mean, look, I, I'll let you go. I'm sorry.

No, I, the only thing I'd add with that, 29 points in the second half, 15 straight at one point. Was it 15 or 16?

I, it was a lot, man.

I don't know.

I need to mix a little Ultra.

It was 15 at the most crucial part of the game when it was like 12, it was 9, and he just kept scoring. And I thought, I wouldn't believe this if I just, I wasn't there, so I didn't see it in person. But I do think sometimes a guy is good enough that you can kind of break the will of a team a little bit. And I felt like that happened to the Spurs. And we'll talk about them after the break about, you know, all, all the things you have to take away if you're them and Do you overreact? Do you underreact? Was this just bad timing? But I think you hit a point where you know that that guy's scoring when he has the ball. Who is your guy who can match this? And the issue with the Spurs as the series went along is they couldn't figure out who that guy was. They didn't have that one, I've got this guy, and it's supposed to be Wemby, but we just saw him in these second halves, he couldn't do it. And it wasn't Fox, obviously. And the other guys were too young and it was really, they were turning Dylan Harper who's 20 years old.

Yeah.

I mean, like, that's the story about, like, there's a lot of stories of the series for San Antonio. Good, bad, ugly. Dylan Harper is the good story of the series for them. This, this is, I mean, in terms of ball control and who has the ball and who starts at point guard next year, Dylan Harper is the answer to that question. This is Dylan Harper's team now to run, or at least co-run offensively. Right. Because he was just, up for all of it except the 2 free throws at the end.

And missed a tough layup at the end. So Brunson, Isaiah won a title as a small guy. Curry, some people count as a small guy, I guess. He's so unusual, I don't even know who to compare him to. But yeah, Bob Cousy couldn't do it until he found Bill Russell. Jerry West couldn't do it until Wilt Chamberlain showed up. Chris Paul, Nash never did it. Oscar Robertson couldn't do it until he played with Kareem. Kid and GP needed old guy titles.

By the way, most of these guys are like significantly taller than Jalen Brunson. Like, Jalen Brunson is listed at 6'2". I've stood next to Jalen Brunson. He's not 6'2".

I feel like he's 5'11". I would give him, but never wore down. And you know, this is such an anomaly to have a guy built like him who had the kind of pressure that he had on him. All during the playoffs. And then on top of it, the box score is not gonna show that this was Castle and Harper and Champagny and Vassell with Wemby behind them for a lot of these points. Just kind of solving them. I thought the Spurs half court, especially in the first half of Game 4, it was like, oh, they've really figured this out. They're not giving up fast break points to the Knicks anymore. They're starting to solve the Knicks now. And then Brunson flipped it over the next 3 halves.

Well, I mean, look, the statistics will say, well, they only solved it to a little bit degree because they're the final offensive rating for the series was Knicks 110, Spurs 107.5. And I'm pretty sure 110 would've ranked last or close to last in the regular season. But here's the thing, you are in game 100, whatever of your season, you are facing a top 2 defense in the NBA and the best defensive player in the NBA, the unanimous Defensive Player of the Year winner. Who has nothing to do but game plan for your team under the highest possible pressure, right? With an officiating regime that is gonna let everyone play super physically except Karl-Anthony Towns, I guess.

They sure did.

And, and all you gotta do in that, in that, what all that solving amounts to in that scenario is scoring enough to win. And they scored enough to win over and over and over against the defense that was giving them different kind of looks, Wemby's in different places, different styles. They solved it enough to just eke it over the finish line. And that, that's enough. That's all that it took. Like 110 offensive rating in those circumstances. Like, I'll take it.

Good enough. 2,600 minutes for Brunson during the season. Missed 8 games. Playoffs over 700. So he's at like 3,400 minutes for the season and felt like he was gaining strength. There's something to be said, we've talked about it a lot. I always talk about it with the draft. It's gonna be really interesting in this draft that's coming up 'cause one of these point guards is gonna fall. And he'll immediately have the chip on the shoulder guy, just like the top 4, whoever goes 4th, that guy's gonna have the chip on the shoulder. Brunson, to be doubted over and over again. I think now he's the 15th guy ever to win a high school championship, a college championship, and an NBA title. And some of the guys that did it are like Kareem.

I was gonna say Kareem is the, is the standard bearer of that.

It's pe— it's people like that. And to, and just, Even when I kind of, I, he was one of the guys in that draft when he went in the second round, it's like, what are we doing? We just watched him in college. Like he's clearly a rotation guy. But he just over and over again kept, kept shoving it in the doubters' faces. We're gonna take a break and there is so much more to discuss. We haven't even hit like 80% of my topics yet.

I can't wait.

I hope you drank some coffee.

I did. I drank, I drank 8:00 PM coffee, which is just, it's dangerous on a lot of levels.

Oh God, it's like doing cocaine.

I'm ready.

All right, we're taking a break. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. My favorite NBA Finals moment ever. Well, I have two. One was when I was 6 years old and I went to the famous triple overtime game in 1976, Boston versus Phoenix, that the Celtics won and became, I still think the most famous NBA game of all time. It's either that or, uh, one of the Jordan games. I like to claim it as the most famous since I was there. But the other one was Game 5, 1984 Finals, 2-2 Lakers-Celtics. And it is so hot in the Boston Garden that people are passing out in the stands. Everyone's sweating all over the place. The Lakers are taking oxygen on the bench and Larry Bird unfazed. I think he had 35 points, 20 rebounds, was just awesome and won the game. Gave them a 3-2 lead. They won in 7, and that is my favorite Finals game ever. There's a lot of great moments. I was lucky to be there, by the way. There's a lot of great moments on the court, but the best ones are served cold, just like Michelob Ultra right here.

A superior light beer that's only 95 calories. Yeah, 95 calories. Even better, they're getting people closer to the game with a chance to win tickets, custom merch, and much more. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now. At mclubeultra.com/courtside. Mclube Ultra Courtside 25-26, no purchase necessary, open to US residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2025, ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods, see official rules at mclubeultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, and prizes and details. Now it's time for our With the Assist segment, and it's presented by It's State Farm. On the court, no one does it alone. The biggest moments often come from teammates working together, which is my favorite kind of basketball. I'm not a nice little ball guy. One player setting up the other at just the right time. This season, the NBA has given us plenty of duos who made that connection look effortless. Normally you would say Murray and Jokic for this, because I think they, they brought the best out of each other and won the '23 title together this year. I think my favorite combo has probably been Castle and Wemby on those, those hard rolls that Wemby does when Castle's out of anyone on the Spurs, I think is the best at putting it right near the basket for him.

And it got to the point there in the Finals where the Knicks just started shoving Wemby as he was going for the alley-oop and just taking the non-shooting foul for it. And they're probably gonna have to change the rules. But I like the way Castle and Wemby work together, and I think that's, That's my pick for favorite up-and-coming combo. Maybe they could be like Jokic and Murray someday. Just like on the court, it helps to know someone has your back when the most unexpected thing might happen. That's where State Farm comes in. They've got easy-to-use digital tools like the State Farm app, which is excellent, and neighborhood State Farm agents when you want to talk to a real human being. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. I got a text from my friend Mark Samino who just said, incredible, my life has changed. And I think, um, I went through this as a Red Sox fan, obviously in 2004. You're gonna go through it when Croatia wins the World Cup in, in 6 weeks.

Uh, yeah, that's a long shot.

Um, you really do feel like your life has changed. I mean, I wrote a whole book about it. You feel like there's a, there's a peace that comes over it that the fear when you get older that you're, you're just gonna die and never see it, or that your, your parents are gonna die and they're never gonna see it, or your buddy, your older buddy, or your uncle. And you know, when, when the moment happens, you start thinking about all of these moments you've had in life, all these people, you know, and, uh, there's just, there's no experience like it. But the problem is you have to really suffer and suffer for your entire life. And that's what makes it special, unfortunately. But this is, this is where we are at the Knicks fans. What was the best text you got?

I'm just, I, I just get texts from people at the game and mostly just, mostly just gibberish. Yeah. Sam Morrill, great standup comedian, just texted me, dude, dude, what a team. What someone else, unreal. Just stuff. It's just, it's just Knicks fans beside themselves.

Just become incoherent. I'm sure New York City's gonna be incredible tonight. I was thinking, what, what's the next— who, who replaces them now as our really sad, pathetic drought team with generations of fans? It's probably Phoenix, right? I'll give you the candidates. Phoenix, Utah Clippers, Sacramento, Atlanta. You have Indiana Nets who won ABA titles. You have the Blazers that haven't won since '77. You have Washington '78, Philly '83, and then you have Charlotte, New Orleans, and Memphis that don't have the giant fan base to pull this off.

So who would you— did you mention Minnesota?

Oh, and Minnesota's in there too. And Minnesota, I guess Minnesota, they have great fans.

Yeah.

And they also, they haven't won a title of any kind since the '91 Twins, I don't think.

Yeah, no, they have not.

And they got jobbed in the WNBA Finals 2 springs ago, which I still remember you, Minnesota. Yeah, Minnesota's up there. I would say Phoenix though, who, who has just been in the mix decade after decade after decade and has had some really tough tough beats and some really great players and it just never happened. I, but they, they also don't have the amount of fans the Knicks have.

Yeah, that's the thing. There's no, there's no team. I, I mean really only the Lakers could travel like this and I don't even think Lakers fans would travel to this, to quite this extent.

I agree.

Particularly in the finals where they're traveling far. Of those teams you mentioned, I, they don't, again, no one has the fan base. This is a small market team. I think Utah, deserves a little bit of a hearing because like the Knicks, they had these, these iconic players that were just stopped by Jordan over and over again. Right? Like, or not twice in the finals, but just couldn't get over the hump. And, and they, they were largely very good for a long time. They've obviously had a down, a down few years as they've tanked now. I think I might pick them.

I wish the Clippers had more fans 'cause that's a great one. 'Cause that goes back as long, they were an expansion team, I think right around when Phoenix came in the league. And then the Kings who, no, well, but they were Cincinnati.

That's true.

That's true. They were Kansas City slash Omaha. That's true. I don't think they've won since they were Rochester in the early '50s was the last one for them. Atlanta would be a fun one. But yeah, we'll, we'll never see anything like this in the NBA again. 'Cause like when the Red Sox won, we still had the Cubs and the Indians like on deck. In this case, no. All right. Do you have more Knicks stuff or do you want to move to the Spurs here? I, yeah, no, go, go in more on the Knicks if you have anything, anything else you want to hit.

I'm just always big on, you just gotta let it, let it sink in. Just let, you gotta luxuriate in the team that just won a title. This is New York City, man. This is like, dude, this is New York freaking City just got its first, and this is a team that unites the city where I lived for 20 years, and I wish I lived there still now. Like, not— there's no other, not even the Yankees, I don't think unite the city like this because there's too many Mets fans. The Knicks are the city's team. Apologies to Brooklyn. It's just true. And it, it's been on fire. I mean, I was there all this week for games 3 and 4, staying in a hotel the whole, the whole time. The whole, the city is like, absolutely on fire. It cannot be understated how crazy this is. And like, yes, there have been some misbehaving fans, deplorable stuff like that happens in every city.

Don't let that— bottom feeders.

Don't let, don't let that represent like what's going on in the West Village, in Williamsburg, in all these places where there are watch parties. It's an absolutely incredible moment in New York City. My wife and I are sitting here like lamenting that we no longer live there and that we can't go outside. Like, I just want to go outside. I'm not even a Knicks fan. I actually grew up hating the Knicks, ironically.. I just want to go outside and see something. And in the burbs, you go outside and you see fucking squirrels and deer running around and there's no one honking their cars. There's nothing. It's just incredible. And like, you can't say enough about Brunson. You can't say enough about how they built the team. The Josh Hart trade just sort of sneaks under the radar all the time is like how they got Josh Hart. And then, you know, Brunson taking less money to facilitate everything, just everything clicked into place. And even a guy like Shamet who couldn't miss, for 6 weeks basically. Right. Just scrap heap guy. And I think like, again, this is a, this is a historical thing, but this is up your alley.

I, I, I tried to find a comp for them in terms of like, you probably saw this on Instagram, like good reg, they were a very good regular season team, 53 wins. That's like low for a champion. Then that's a, and then to go from that to, I'm looking at the finals number now. 16-3 with a net rating of +15.4. I mean, that, that, that's, I think the greatest net rating in the history of the playoffs for a championship team. It's up there with like, it's, it's above, not win-loss-wise, but like it's '17 Warriors, it's '96 Bulls. Like it's all the greatest teams ever are the only ones that are in that universe of so few losses and such a big point differential. They just turned into an absolute bulldozer. And I don't want it— what I don't want to hear, and I've seen a little bit of this as well, they didn't have to play Boston, they didn't have to play Oklahoma City. Stop.

Boston happens every year.

Boston got exposed by Philly. Why are we sitting here thinking Boston was this great juggernaut that was gonna really like push the Knicks? I think they would've pushed the Knicks harder than Philly because Philly was injured, but they got exposed. San Antonio beat Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City was banged up and the Knicks just beat 'em 4 out of 5 times. Like, just give them, just give them the credit. It's an all-time dominant postseason run and it puts them in a position where, and this is more in your wheelhouse than mine, I don't really think there's a single season team quite like this ever in the NBA who was good and then turned into whatever the hell this is.

I can't think of one either. I, I think what, what the amazing thing to me It was like Doc Rivers texted me during the fourth quarter and he was just like, this is a replay of all the other Finals games. And I was like, you're right. 'Cause this is, the Knicks are almost like playing karaoke of, of the other games that they've had where, where it's just like, oh, here, oh, they're gonna do the part where they're gonna fall behind by 13. It's like watching those CSI episodes where you're like, oh, the 40-minute mark. Now I bet this guy, now we're gonna find out maybe he actually knew the victim. And that's what they did over and over again. I'm with you. I, first of all, you know, I hate the, you never played anybody thing. You can only play who's in front of you. Second, San Antonio was minus 200 to win the minus 190 to win the series. And we were, we were all saying during the last round, OKC San Antonio was gonna decide the Finals. I certainly felt that way.

Yeah, we, so we weren't all, don't we me on that.

Don't we me on that one. I felt that way. A lot of people felt that way. We were all like, the Finals gonna go through the West. I thought of the 5 best teams. The Knicks were the only good East team. And I think Denver and Minnesota were up there with San Antonio. I think those were the 5 best teams in the league. Now they only played one, but I don't hold them against them. And I thought San Antonio was an awesome team. That was one of the scariest defensive teams we've had in, in a Finals in the last 20 years.

They turned Philly and Cleveland into freaking mush. Like, just get outta here. You don't even belong in the same league as us. And like, those were teams that fought tooth and nail to beat other good teams in the Eastern Conference, including the top seed, including a popular Finals pick. And the Knicks just squashed them, humiliated them, embarrassed them out of the playoffs. And it was like, you don't even belong on the same floor with us. Go home, James Harden. By the way, James Harden just sneaking into the news today. Just sneak it right in.

Guns loaded. Well, I'll tell you this to credit the Knicks. They are changing, I think, I think they are lighting a little fire on some of these teams. 'Cause this is sustainable for the Knicks, I think for at least the next 2 years, right? And if you're Boston, you have to change how you play, which is basically what Stevens said at the press conference right after the season ended. We can't play this way anymore. We have to be more inside out. The Knicks have the ability to play inside out, to hit threes, but Brunson in, in a lot of ways became their inside outside guy. He was the guy getting all the points in the paint. A little bit of Bridges, a little bit of Towns who was terrible. That was Minnesota Towns tonight. Now he didn't get the friendliest whistle ever, but it didn't matter.

I will say. 3 times in 2 games, a Wembenyama foul was reviewed and turned into a Towns foul. I didn't like the first 2 of them, which one was in game 4. Yeah. And the first one tonight I did not understand at all. Like Wembenyama gets called for a foul, like kind of karate chops Towns and then Towns hooks him. But the chop, the chop comes first, which was like precedes the foul.

Yeah.

And it precedes the hook and you go back and review it. Can you not just review that and say, we're just, it's a no call, we're wiping it away. Successful challenge. Now to foul on Wembenyama. I gotta make it a foul on Towns. I thought he got a raw whistle in these last two games. And we have not even gotten to the fact that we are again, for the second straight game, the league is gonna be spared the number one talking point between games 5 and 6 being, is Wembenyama gonna be suspended for game 6 because of a flagrant foul review on the landing spot thing? I mean, like they're spared this whole officiating discussion because the Knicks saved their ass on it.

I had that in my notes. He would've gotten suspended.

I said all this conspiracy, oh, they'll never suspend him. They'll find a way around it.

He would've gotten suspended.

I think he would 100% would've gotten suspended between them not upgrading the mush of Jalen Brunson to a flagrant, which like, I don't understand what their reasoning was for that. And like the outcry of that, I think I agree with you. I think he was gonna get suspended for Game 6. And now thankfully we don't have to live in a world where the Knicks win Game 6 with no Wemby and everything's a little not ainted, but just feels a little like we didn't get the sendoff that we should have gotten.

There were a lot of calls I didn't like against the Knicks today. It should be mentioned it was 28 to 19 Knicks free throw advantage in that game. Yeah. I felt like they got hosed on 6 or 7 calls. I thought the not calling the foul on Brunson, I mean, when Brunson's trying to dribble the clock out with 10 seconds left waiting for them to foul him. Gets hacked. There's 3 refs there, all of them miss it, and the ball goes to Bridges. Like, that just could have been a steal the other way for the game-tying layup, and we would've been like, oh, let's look at the replay. Daniel-san karate chopping Brunson. That was terrible. I can't believe, I can't believe they missed Wemby going under Brunson's feet. They never miss that call ever. They make that call 100 times out of 100 during this season. There's 3 refs. None of them missed the call. He fell down. It was terrible. And, and I don't know how you don't review that later.

Well, they would, they could review it later, but it would just have been between games. It, it's funny, right?

When I first— timeout, you can't review it.

I don't know. When I first watched it naked eye, I actually didn't, I, I saw Brunson kick his leg out a little bit and I thought, okay, that maybe that's what they saw. And then on the replay, it's much, it's much more clear that that should have been a foul and a flagrant foul, and it was just not called. And then there was like the OG and an OB phantom loose ball foul after a scramble rebound very late in the game where like, I'm not even sure what Scott Foster was looking at. But look, the Knicks, and you can sit here and do the foul, no replay, the foul count and the free throw count and whatever. It's like the fouls on Towns are so pivotal. And so he is such a bedrock in terms of how the Knicks play and coming into this game, Knicks were +48 with Towns on the floor and -40 with Towns off the floor. That like, I don't really care if the rest of the calls are even or lean to the Knicks' favor because those calls by themselves are so pivotal. And 3 times in 2 games, not only is a Wembenyama foul erased, it's then turned into a foul on Towns.

And I thought 2 of the 3 were bad calls of just like wipe it away, no call it. The third one was a clear foul when he shoved Yes. Some who shoved Wembenyama into a Knicks player.

We were texting near the end of halftime and I was texting you that I thought the Knicks were gonna win, which I was texting you all day. And you texted back, hold on, I want to see what happens with these 3 Towns fouls.

And like instantaneously, by the time you got the text.

Yeah, I got the text that he was fouling somebody. Foster had that awful call on OG, the 5th foul. It was Brunson had just made a layup. It was 83-83. OG had that weird loose ball call. And I wrote down in my notes at that point, it was starting to give me flashbacks to time to bring a Celtics team into this. Game 5, 2008 Finals. Celtics up 3-1. It's in LA. It's 2-3-2. My dad and I are in the stands. We think the Celtics are gonna win. And in the second half, The Celts just got hosed. I, it was the game where Ray Allen fouled out, hit 5 fouls in the second half. Paul Pierce had 5 fouls in the second half. And I was like, I feel like we're reliving that where they're just gonna like take OG and Towns outta this game. And as it turned out, it didn't matter 'cause Jalen Brunson just could not be stopped for a long, long time. And then really on San Antonio's side, nothing happened. But I, I'm looking at guys I bolded down the stretch. OG had a dunk. Brunson had a floater, Mitch had that offensive rebound, OG had a free throw, Bridges had free throw.

Like all the guys kind of chipped in.

A lot of nervy free throws at the end for both teams. A lot of like, by the way, I get it. I, I, I mean, maybe it wasn't nerves, sometimes you just miss, but boy, if you put me at the line right there, I might pee my pants and go 0 for 2 on 2 air balls and run off the court never to be seen again.

The one I was positive of was Harper missing the first one when he was, they were down 3 with like 8 seconds left. I was like, I feel like the guy misses that 90% of the time down the stretch. We had a couple big, at least 2 big Josh Hart shots in the 4th quarter. Wanna shout out?

Yep.

He's the kind of their no, no, yes guy. But yeah, so when you look at the other Knicks, OG goes 3 of 11. Yeah, but I, I'm just going big picture. Oh, you had him as Finals MVP after Game 4, which I thought was aggressive. I agree. Winless had it too.

I think it was like 60-40 because Brunson is the engine, right? Brunson is the—

you know my stance. Well, the best guy to me, unless he's awful, has to get it.

Well, and by, and by the, after this game, there were, there were no, there were just no questions about it. But look, let's, I, again, now that it's over, is the Anunoby tip the greatest play in the history of Knicks basketball?

I mean, greatest in history of Knicks basketball.

It's one of the greatest plays in the history of basketball, but it's the great—

I think it, it's the discussion would be of basketball for me, for the professional basketball NBA. Is it one of the 10 best, most important plays in the history of the league? And I think you could argue that it was. Now you're saying like non-Game 7 versus Game 7.

No, we were still—

like 2 categories.

Well, no, we were, I, I sent you a text from one, my buddy Doug, who's a genius and he was, and he is a math genius and we, he was asking me Like, do you think the Anunoby tip is the single biggest non-Game 7 swing play in terms of Finals odds? And then he showed me his math about how much it swung Finals odds. And I, he said, give me some other candidates. And the only one, I gave him a bunch, and the only one that he mathematically said was as close to, to that big of an odd swing was Robert Horry's shot in Game 5 in 2005 Pistons Spurs, which turned a 2-point— when Rashid left them open. Yeah. Which turned a 2-point Pistons lead into a 1-point Spurs win. But yeah, I mean, like, it's up there and just, it's just made for cinema. He's flying through the air above everybody else, sprinting in with the kind of urgency that is like, I will die to win this game and gets his hand on it perfectly softly. Nobody else touches it. Only him. Only he's high enough to get it. And it's, you know, it's going in as soon as he hits it.

It's not, it's, he's got, he's got a preposterous level of touch and control on it that you, as soon as it, I mean, I was there, I was watching it, I was standing up in awe. It's like, as soon as I saw him running, I was like, oh my God, he's going to tip this thing in.

So I did the pod right afterwards and then was, kept watching that whole sequence over and over again the next morning. I think it's one of the craziest fluke. It might even be a crazier fluke, but also great play than the Ray Allen shot. 'Cause remember the Ray Allen shot? All the guys that, what was it? The, that led to the layup? Oh no, it was the LeBron 3 before the Ray Allen shot when all 5 Spurs had a chance for the rebound. And it's like you could do this 1,000 times and this might be the one time where you don't get the rebound. Not to mention, that Ray Allen was the guy in the corner who had practiced the backpedaling. Like all those things that happen, it's like 1 in a million that, that team, that moment. So the Knicks, you have to have the, the Spurs fucking up like the defensive coverage. Did you see that, that camera from behind the basket of them kind of not knowing who to cover? I did. And then it ends up, and I think that was legitimate where they kind of did, oh, I thought, oh, they're playing him.

I didn't. And they're kind of scrambling right before. And Wemby ends up on Brunson, which I don't, I can't imagine. Do you think that was the intention at all for him to be 30 feet from the basket? They're up 1.

I don't think so. That said, I don't think there was enough scrutiny or just curious questioning of did you need to double team Jalen Brunson with Victor Wemby on him? I mean, I think that was a, in all the attention on the Fox blunder that preceded that, which was all very deserved. And I've, by the way, I've seen some defenses of that decision by Fox, which to me are nonsensical. We can talk about that if you want. But I did, I don't think that, and I don't know who called for the double. I assume the coaches yelled for him to go do it. I'm like, it's a, it's a unanimous Defensive Player of the Year. There's 4 seconds left in the game. He's just gonna take a 3. I don't, I don't know what you're also, you have 3 defenders.

You don't need Wemby to come out. You, if anything, you have to be worried about some sort of tip. So anyway, Wemby comes out, that's lucky break number 1. Look at break number 2. Brunson shoots it fast and it has to hit the front of the rim and ricochet right toward where OG's going, right? And OG's jumping, jumps 7 feet full speed, but you still need the ball to ricochet. If it hits the back of the rim, he's by it. I don't— he might be able to get it with his left thing, but it almost has to bounce the way it is. And then for him to just kind of tap it back the way he did, I think that's like a 1 in 100,000 play, those 3 things altogether. Not to mention Wemby could have blocked the Brunson shot. The only thing is Towns was right there for the tip-in of the Brunson, of the OG tip. And I wonder if he would've tipped it in. See if that, and then you also have the Spurs having Harper inbound the pass at the end on a play that would've worked and Towns tips it.

And like, why wasn't Wemby inbounding that? Because you're using him as a decoy for the play.

The lob, the lob threat, right?

Like, how about Cornette? Could Cornette not throw?

Mm-hmm.

Why do you have somebody who's 6 inches shorter than the guy guarding him? Not to mention Towns brings the guys over, the fans, to, to kind of crowd Harper, which I've never seen in a modern NBA game in the last 30 years. But I thought that was crazy too. You could do a documentary about the last 10 minutes of that, uh, 10 seconds of that game.

Oh my, you, you sure, you sure could.

And I know, because then the Fox decision, like you, like you could, it's like an hour of analysis.

The Fox decision, I, I saw a, a couple of analytics people being like, this is unfair criticism. It's a totally analytically sound decision. Here's the math of like, well, he could put him up 3, this and that. The reason why it was a bad decision, and I don't know if he could have killed as much clock as people think because OG was coming to foul him real fast, but the reason why it's a bad decision despite whatever analytics you can conjure about it is even if he just makes 1 out of 2 free throws, which is part of the analytical argument for why it's not a horrible decision. Well, he could miss free throw, he could miss both free throws and blah, blah, blah, expected points for this and that. Then you're up 2 and the, and the tip does not lose you the game. You still have a chance to win it in overtime. There's just such an enormous, 1 point is such an enormous difference that if that's all you get, it still matters. 0 is what you can't get. And he did pretty much the only thing that, that put zero in a probable position to happen, and that was challenging Anunoby at the rim and lose.

I don't know why he did it. I don't know why he wanted to challenge Anunoby. I don't know how he couldn't have scored on the left side of the basket when he is left-handed. But the OG block slash tip. So I was watching, I watched the end of Bucks-Suns Game 5 to try to remember the Jrue play and the sequence of, and they, and the Bucks are up like 10 with 3 minutes left. They kind of blow the game, leading to Booker, who had been hot in that game, with a chance to win. And Jrue does the strip, comes back down, and throws that crazy alley-oop to Giannis, who's almost by the rim and dunks it anyway. And I was thinking, like, if he hadn't— if he had fucked up that alley-oop, or Giannis, whatever, like, he would have gotten all the same De'Aaron Fox criticism. But guess what? It worked. And if Fox had scored to go up 3, we would've been like, great play by Fox.

I don't think we would've.

I don't think it was a great play.

I don't think we would've. I think we would've been like, ooh, that was risky. He's, he's lucky.

He risky. Great play by Fox.

Yeah.

I was watching the 1990 Game 2 Finals, Pistons Blazers.

Of course you were. Why wouldn't you be watching that?

Well, it got served to me on Twitter because apparently I was watching last second plays and this popped up, but this was the Danny Young game. Remember this?

No, I, I don't think so, but I'll remember when you described to me which finals was it? Blazers, Blazers, Blazers. That's the one where the Pistons went all the way back to Portland. Yeah.

Pistons are up one. They inbound it, they break the press. For some reason, Gerald Henderson decides to score a layup with like 3 seconds left instead of just dribbling out the clock.

There's no Blazers.

All the Blazers are up trying to steal it. The Blazers inbound it and Danny Young just gets a wide open 3, but it's like a split second after the buzzer. And it was kind of as dumb as the Fox play, but it didn't, uh, my point is, guys have brain farted like this over and over again in the playoffs.

It's hard, man. Like, these guys are tired. The amount of energy it takes to play these games is astonishing and unimaginable to regular people. And it affects your brain a little bit. And also, you're built with such confidence and you're such an elite athlete that he justifiably thinks I'm quick enough to get this shot onto the backboard before, before he gets to it. And he didn't. And like, it's understandable. It's, it's like a very explainable brain fart, but a disastrous brain fart.

You know what though? It's not explainable as the point guard. The point guard's the smartest guy on the team, allegedly. He's the game manager. He's the guy who, he's the quarterback. He's the guy who makes the right decisions, right? Cam Johnson, I saw on Tommy's pod, was defending Darren Fox. He was just like, you guys don't understand like how fast everything goes when you're playing basketball. And it's like, they get a steal, the ball pumps out. It's not like you have a lot of time to process what's happening. First, he's gotta chase the ball. He's in real time measuring OG behind him. But you know, I, I guess my thing is I don't think the Spurs would've won this series anyway, regardless of that play. Because I think I really felt like they started to get exposed as the series get along. Look at what happened today. They lost by 4. I know, but how many, but how many guys on the Spurs did you trust by, by midway through Game 5? We lost all our confidence in Fox. Their entire bench was out. Cornette was unplayable. They couldn't really play Carter Bryant. Keldon Johnson, 6th man of the year, was just doing nothing.

You going down the line, it's like, I don't, I can't find 6 guys I trust on this team. Not to mention the big fundamental issue with them was they gotta give the car keys to Harper and they just wouldn't do it. They were hesitant to do that. And I, I think that was one of the things that cost them the series.

Well, it is interesting for a team that was ahead of schedule and has a ton to be proud of and is like 2 boneheaded plays away from this series, probably still going on into Game 6. It does feel like there's a surprising amount of potential fallout in San Antonio, just in terms of maybe not immediate, but just like the Fox question is arriving maybe faster than they thought it might.

I would say it's arrived. I think, I think people are getting off the train.

Well, I, I mean, I said after game 4 that I, I was having lunch with an agent in New York and we were talking about like, 'cause Harper's been so sensational. And that's part of the Fox question too, is Harper.. And he said, you know, how soon do you think like the Spurs start thinking about or taking calls or listening or whatever? And I said, look, it feels early. It feels early because his extension doesn't even kick in yet. And they just made the finals and they're gonna have to lick their wounds if they lose this series. But that contract is so big and so long that like, if a team called me this offseason and just gave me like a fair-ish offer for it, I, I, we gotta have a meeting about it because this was bad and I, he's got a high ankle sprain, but this series was really bad in every possible way pretty much. And Harper was just sensational. And you could argue like we've almost already gotten what we hope to get out of Fox, which is like veteran mentorship, a long playoff run that it didn't quite get all the way.

And like, I like now I just got like 4 more years on a huge extension coming up. I don't know if it's, It's, that's fallout. Keldon Johnson's a free agent. That's fallout. Just completely fell apart in the finals and didn't have a great playoffs overall.

He had a bad playoffs.

It's gonna be interesting.

Well, the thing with Fox, so the, for people listening who don't know the size of the contract, maybe take a seat even if you're sitting. It's 4 years, $221 million. And I had a bunch of people over the last couple days texting me, like just people that aren't doing what we do for a living, but just basketball fans. Like, so they're gonna trade Fox. Who, where's he gonna go? Go through the teams. Like, it's, it's hard to find 4 teams that need an expensive point guard who are like— you'd be like, oh, Orlando, he'd be good there. Well, cool. Orlando's already like way over the tax. They're gonna be a second apron team and they're not trading Franz Wagner for Darren Fox. I'm sorry.

Right.

Right.

That one, that one goes into the David Stern veto.

Yeah. That's like the league, the league steps in. What they're looking at is something like Minnesota. Wondering if they'll take the last year of Julius Randle's deal and DiFroncenzo, who has a torn Achilles. I, I honestly think that's what they're looking at for that contract. I think you're looking at, can we get expirings back? And we're probably getting the, the one or two worst guys in the trade. We might have to throw a pick in it. Atlanta is interesting because they're gonna have cap space. Need a point guard and maybe have like the Kispert contract and Risa Shay. And, but I, I, I couldn't find a deal that I really liked. Well, that's what I think he's gonna be on San Antonio next year.

That's what I meant by fair-ish in terms of like, if, if it's like neutral to us and we don't have to give up a pick, like I gotta at least have a meeting about it. But then you go through the teams and of course, irony of all ironies, a team that absolutely could use an expensive, good point guard and does desperate things all the time is the Sacramento Kings. And I feel like that's probably not gonna happen. Yeah, that definitely not happen.

Well, here's the other problem with Fox, like as a trade asset, this, this draft is like legendary for how many point guards are in it.

And the Kings are in that range.

5 guys who, who could potentially be starting as point guards, not to mention like some of the guys that have come in the last 2 years. So I think he's gonna be on the team and I, I don't really know, I don't know how they, how they get outta that one.

So the only, the only thing I threw out, and I don't really see the exact scenario for it, But you mentioned Atlanta, Miami, like there, like is, is there a team that gets Giannis that has to trade so much for him that is like, all right, we just need another good player in the door and this is a guy's gettable and he fits well. Like that's the, but I, even that is a hard deal to construct.

There was one, there was one that caught my attention as I was flying through the Spotrac teams. Ja Morant.

He's in that same sort of boat, right?

And if you're the Spurs, you just basically, that's all I could think.

Oh no, the Spurs are not trading for Ja Morant.

No, but you get him and then you try to flip him and it's basically a 3-team deal. You know, anyway, I don't think that's happening. Kaffee in seiner besten Form mit der neuen Qubo One Kapselmaschine von Qubo. In jeder Qubo Kapsel steckt Spitzenkaffee aus besonderen Anbaugebieten. Für Espresso, Kaffee-Crema oder Kaffee-Grande auf Knopfdruck. Die neue Qubo One überzeugt mit Premium-Design, kompakter Größe und kleinem Einstiegspreis ab 29 €. Dank innovativer PressBrew-Technologie wird jede Tasse besonders aromatisch mitsamt dicker Crema. Entdecke jetzt die Qubo-Kapselmaschinen in deiner Qibo-Filiale und auf qibo.de. In less than a week, including—

I was, I almost said which two? I mean, just, they just all felt so—

yeah, the one today was like a walk in the park compared to some of the other ones. They, I did a thing about after Game 2 about how they've had, and this is before Game 4, how they had had the, their 5 worst playoff losses are worse than anyone else's 5 worst playoff losses. And then they added a 6th one to that. I don't know where you start with them when you're thinking about the season because they're a little like the Patriots when the Super Bowl, whereas like after the Super Bowl and the Patriots got killed, I almost wish they hadn't made the Super Bowl. It's like, wish, would've been better off losing the AFC title game. If the Spurs just lose an OKC in Game 7, we have no questions. We're like, ah, they're too young. OKC's really good. That's the way it worked out. But now it opens up a whole bunch of stuff and we've almost gotten to the hour mark without talking about him yet. But this was an incredibly disappointing Wemby series. It just was. I was— for future of the league, face of the league, all that stuff. This was, I think, a catastrophe for all those storylines.

I think it was.

I think that's a little strong.

Yeah. For, for, we're passing the torch from Jordan to LeBron to Wemby and I'm included. I'm, I have my hand pushing it toward him. And he just wa— he just wasn't nearly good enough or impactful enough. He wasn't.

So I dis— I disagree with you in, in two senses. I don't think he was catastrophically bad. I think he was a little disappointing defensively. I think he was like tonight he was fantastic for 2.5 quarters defensively and I think faded a little bit at the end. He averaged 26 a game on 42% shooting, 27% on threes, 11 rebounds, 3.5 blocks. I agree in the aggregate it's It's disappointing. And we can talk about why and what parts of his game kind of faded in and out of some of these games. Like tonight, for instance, I thought in the first half he was just not rolling to the rim enough. He was just settling for pops and pop twos and drives that were never going to work in this series. And for some reason, just doesn't yet have the confidence or the consistency and just like the simple Porzingis shot where all else fails, I just catch the ball at 15 feet face up and shoot over you. Like that should just be a much bigger part of his diet than it is.

He's passing them up. And, and especially the 18-footers.

But I had this argument with people throughout the finals. I think just story-wise, narrative-wise, this is the best. This is a better outcome for the league. The Knicks win, they end the 53-year drought, right? Total jubilation in New York City history. All the alums are there. Ewing's there. The ghosts are exercising, all of that. And Wemby gets some battle scars and gets embarrassed a little bit in some big moments and has to go back. And like, it's, it was, it felt too soon for him to already conquer the league. And now we get an offseason of like reckoning with the turnover in game 2, reckoning with shooting 42%, 7 of 19, I think tonight. And like, like some scars, some, some stuff to, some stuff to build on. Missed free throws in game, in game 4 in New York. I, I just think it's like a cool, not cooler, but just like, certainly a more literary arc than if he had just sort of walked into, not walked into, just like, I'm already the best, we're already champions, New York, you lose again.

To be fair, I wasn't saying his play was catastrophic. I was saying the storyline arc of him being the next guy and here it is and he has now arrived. I think it's really flipped over the last, I just know anecdotally with people in my life, he is now, he's basically had an entire career of narratives in the span of 2, 2 months where now it's like, he, can he play more than 30 minutes in a playoff game without wearing down? Why is he, why does, why is the first half so different than the second half? What about some of the dirty stuff? Like the Knicks fans hate Wemby now. It's really interesting. Like they're just like that. Even the play with Brunson today, I got so many people in my life are like, hey, there he is. He did it again. This is a guy that went into the last two rounds of the playoffs kind of with a unanimous approval rating that now I, I think there's questions. I think there's, he's, he's got people that don't like him. It's just, that's what I mean. Like it's, it went from like, oh my God, this is definitely the next guy.

Here we go to now people going, huh, what do we actually have here? And what is he gonna get better? And what is he gonna add? And can he play more than 30 minutes a game without wearing down? And I don't know. I just think he left with a lot of questions.

I do think it's worth again noting his team made the finals and we just spent a lot of time talking about how the guards other than Harper were like a little bit scattershot and Castle was very bad tonight too. And he was in the finals. They beat OKC. And the dirty stuff is interesting because I do like, clearly when he feels like he's getting beat up, there is a risk of him losing his temper. I mean, just ask Nasrid. Yeah, I do think some of the things like the landing spot thing and like a couple, like one, a couple of like the elbows that end up getting jaw into somebody's jaws. I think like he's just very tall and his limbs are just going to get to places where I agree with that. Like he doesn't really expect them to be, or you don't expect them to be. I think there's a little bit of that, but it is interesting. The top 3 players in the league in whatever order. You want them all left us this season in slightly disappointing fashion. Jokic shoots 19% from 3 in the first round and is just kind of not the same guy.

Shay in the conference finals has an absolutely epic game 7, but ends up averaging 26 a game on 41% shooting. And then Victor in the finals has a little bit of a letdown. It's just like, it's hard, man. Like they all, they all ran into stuff and it was hard and they just, they didn't quite live up to their usual production.

Here's where he should get dinged. Game 4, Mitch goes for the kill, leaves him in, right? Play, he plays a ton of minutes and he just dies down the stretch.

Mm-hmm.

Like he just couldn't handle that kind of minute load workload physicality. He just, he wilted. And part of it was 'cause he probably didn't have the experience of playing minutes like that because they were really careful with him during the season. So it's like, give us your 30 best minutes. Um, in the playoffs you can't do that anymore. You gotta get into the 40s. Look at Brunson tonight. Um, game 5, if you're digging him, I think it's gotta start with all the Towns foul trouble. Towns is out of this game at the beginning of the third quarter. He's out now for the next basically quarter and, and a third, right? How did Wemby not destroy the Knicks at that point? They didn't have a center. They had Mitch Robinson who was terrible this whole series. They were, they had Bridges on him at one point. They put a small ball lineup on him. Mm-hmm. Like if you're supposed to be, now I sound like I'm like a, like a fucking talking head, like doing the, but no, but, but if you're, if you're supposed to be the guy, you're our next guy, here we come.

We're about to hand the league to you and they have a team that has no center out there. Why aren't you, why aren't you destroying them? I don't understand it.

Okay, so in this particular game, the Knicks did play with no center for a couple of different stretches. They tried to time it to the Cornette minutes for just the reason that they know this is untenable against Wembenyama. And then I was a little surprised that they would like bring Huck Porte in when Wembenyama came in. They were like, fuck it, we're just going to go small against Wembenyama, which surprised me. And I thought there was at least one play where I think, I can't remember which guard it was. I think it was Castle. Had him, might have been Harper, had him on a lob and went for a 2 instead in the paint and missed. Like the lob was very clear there. He didn't throw it. Then there's another play where somebody just, he had Bridges on him and I think it was Fox just was like, throw, throw the ball. And he threw the ball and he like caught it and laid it up and in. And at that exact moment, Mike Brown pointed to Mitchell Robinson, get your hands off the pitch. Yeah.

You're back in.

Here we go. So like they, like they, it didn't last long and they did exploit it to the point that Mike Brown was immediately like, yep, one back. Like they figured it out. Bring him, bring, We need the big guy back in with the broken hand.

So he's talking a lot of shit in the first half of Game 4 when they're up, right?

Oh, he was.

That's not helping him either. I just think it's gonna be interesting how this goes for him for the next couple months. 'Cause first of all, he's American. He's not American, he's French. Second of all, English, that's true. English is his second language. And I think a couple times during the playoffs where he's just said things because he's saying things in the language that's not his. And the way it could just get cut and interpreted seems a lot more aggressive. Like, what was that quote where he was like, we're gonna come back and win? Or when they were down 3-1, whatever that quote is.

Everybody knows we're gonna do it.

Yeah, I don't, I don't 100% even know that's what he meant, but he's French. Like, he's just trying to talk around.

I think, I think that's pretty much it.

I think he's just trying to be confident. Um, but I thought, uh, if you're gonna be the big bully and you're gonna carry yourself like the big bully, you've gotta do better in a game when Karl-Anthony Towns only plays half the game 'cause he's in foul trouble the whole time. When it's 3-1, you've had 2 days rest, you can't blame the rest thing. I just, I was really disappointed. But again, this is part of the process with the young guys. We saw it with Tatum in the 2022 Finals. We saw it with, uh, um, what's that, uh, LeBron in the '07 Finals. Like, this is, this is it. This is the taster, and hopefully he vaults from this and goes up a level. But yeah, I thought there was a little more there offensively. I gotta be honest.

I mean, his rolls to the rim continued to be their best offense, right? And they got a ton of great threes that they missed on, on just him rolling to the rim. But yeah, you just, it like, he has these moves 2 or 3 times a game where he just decides I'm scoring and I'm not gonna settle for the shot you want me to take. I'm gonna at least get to the dotted line and spin or fake a half spin and loft a little hookup or a jumper and it goes in. You're like, why, why is there not more of that? I just keep coming back to the Porzingis shot. As like that should just be easy money for him as a failsafe. Yeah.

I will say, how about a jump hook? Can we throw a jump hook in there? You're 7'6".

He'll probably spend time with Olajuwon this summer and come back with stuff. Who knows?

How about just go to the gym and shoot some jump hooks? Do we need to keep Olajuwon to teach you how to turn around and shoot? Like, everyone has a jump hook. Anyone who's ever played basketball has one.

I think this is all great that we're talking about this and he hasn't reached the mountaintop yet and he's getting beat up a little bit by fans who say he's dirty and like we're talking about the lack of this go-to move or whatever.

Yeah.

And he had not only that, his shit talking to Mitchell Robinson early in Game 4. We said, I'm in your head, I'm in your head. And it backfired. Big mistake. Reminds me a little bit of like Dwyane Wade in Game 2 of the Finals in 2011 where he hits the 3. The whole bench is taunting. There's a timeout and the Mavs get so furious. They're like, we can't let this team clown us like this. And they come back and win the game and they all cite that moment as a moment that changed their mindset. And Dwyane Wade cites that moment as like a oopsie moment for him.

Do you think OG is the greatest 3-and-D guy we've had in the 3-and-D era? Would be, 'cause it has to be somebody who's not an actual, I couldn't average 25 to 26 a game if I had to on a good team. I have to be like basically the third option. I know exactly what I am. I'm over here, I'm gonna play bass. We're gonna have some awesome concerts. Every once in a while I might get to sing a couple songs, but that's all I'm doing. And, and he knows it. And that's just who he is. I can't think of a better version of this. Like, it's almost like we should change 3 and D to OG.

I mean, I, I don't even know what he is, man, cuz he just averaged 20 points a game for an entire playoffs.

And I know that You know, scoring is up 'cause of threes and all that, but like, that's, that's, so maybe, maybe he's like a 3 and D, like plus, like he's, he's just OG's like the separate category for 3 and D guys. So it's not that they're running plays for him.

No. You know, I used to talk about 3 and D and D guys with the second D being drive. Like you gotta be able to make plays outta closeouts and he's good at that. But he, he can like, he can do a little bit, a little bit everything. Like he can bully a mismatch if, if you got nothing else going on, he can hit an off the dribble 3 now and then.

He's a 33 and double D guy.

I don't know, like, don't go into Barkley territory on that. But I, I just think he's a phenomenal player and, and it was a trade I loved for them right away. You and I, I think talked about it at one point too about, you know, the Quickley and Anunoby debate and all that. I just thought there was never any debate. It was just such a smart identification of, all right, if Brunson's our guy, what kind of guys do we need to get around him? And if Brunson's our guy, quickly is never going to develop under us the way that he could somewhere else. And Barrett is Barrett. Like, we just need a different guy. And that was absolutely like A+ identification of talent.

Yeah, I was, I remember, I remember doing a pod about that trade and being like, I have no idea how this is going to play out, but I understand it from both sides, but not But it's like at that point, OG, you know, he'd, he'd, he'd miss some games at some point. It was like Toronto always seemed pretty anxious to get off him.

They did. They didn't want to, they didn't want to pay this contract that the Knicks are currently paying. And the Knicks are like, this is great, we'll pay you.

Yeah. They, they were delighted to do it.

Can we, can we find a, a sponsorship deal for you under the table or something? But, 'cause we love you so much. By the way, Raptors, you know what I was thinking? Like very tangential winners and losers of the playoffs and of the NBA Finals. Raptors, Anunoby, right? Like Siakam and Siakam. And I had forgotten, they traded Siakam and the Pacers pick that one of the Pacers picks they got in that trade is now the number 5 pick in the draft. And it had quite a journey. It went Indiana, Toronto, Toronto, New Orleans, New Orleans back to Indiana, and then Indiana to the Clippers. And now it's the number 5 pick in the draft.

I'd forgotten about that. Crazy. Yeah, it seems like in retrospect, maybe Anunoby and Siakam could have worked together as two forwards on a really good team. But watching it in real time, and it was a team that never really made sense. Like there was something missing when you watched them and none of us could put our finger on it. It's like, I like this guy, I like this guy.

It's just, a lot of it was Scottie Barnes developing, I think faster than they thought. And I think they maybe got a little ahead of Scottie Barnes' development in making their team building decisions. But they just concluded like, this is not gonna be a championship team. The next championship team is gonna be built around Scottie Barnes. Let's just pivot there now. And yeah, it looks—

I also though— oh, go ahead.

No, I was gonna say, I also felt for Brooklyn Nets fans a little bit when Mike Breen said during the game about Jose Alvarado, or about Julian Champagny, the Brooklyn kid torturing his hometown team. I was like, ooh, that one's gonna sting just a little bit.

Yeah, that's a hard one. On the bright side for San Antonio, I think Carter Bryant's gonna be really good.

It's a very bright, bright side.

I love Carter Bryant. And then next year maybe he's a little more involved. The Harper thing's incredible. It really felt like there was a couple of moments tonight where I was like, wow, if San Antonio wins this, it's going to be because Dylan Harper went to this crazy level that we've only seen a couple times from 20-year-olds in the finals. And it like, it was like, is he gonna score 38 points? Is this just gonna be like he single-handedly changes this and then Trump decides to go to game 6 and all of a sudden the momentum is completely flipped against the Nets?

That, that already, that game already feels like 3 weeks ago.

The Trump game.

Yeah. It just, the playoffs are just so long. The Trump game feels like 3 weeks ago. You know how long the playoffs are? Here's a thought that popped into my head today just to pop. This is like how broken my brain is. You know when it popped into my head when I was doing Ringer 100 and I put this guy in the Ringer 100 higher than I've ever had him, I was like, Hey man, Tobias Harris had himself a playoffs, didn't he? That feels like 7, 7 months ago that Tobias Harris had himself a playoffs.

I sent my Ringer 100 in, I had Brunson 4th. I don't remember where I had him.

I'm not looking it up right now. I was not 4th though. You had, so that means you had him above Luka. I put him above Luka.

Yeah. I put him above Luka.

Why not?

Why the hell not? He deserves to be above Luka. He just won the title.

But, but just revise it now. Put him 1. Why not? Why not have a ceremonial Ringer 100? He's first now.

So Harper, like, they'll have to figure out the Fox thing, but it'll be fine. Maybe it doesn't materialize until February. And then Wemby, as you mentioned earlier, because of everything that played out the last 3 weeks, this is his Rocky III moment now. Now he's gotta figure, what do I need to add? I've now tasted my own blood. I'm a little bit villainy now in America. Especially with the Knicks fan base and probably OKC too, and Minnesota. I have some teams that franchise that don't like me and like, this is gonna be how it goes. So we did the most intriguing players of the playoffs before the playoffs. We had a draft.

We did.

I do remember. I picked Wemby for apex superstar and you picked SGA. Neither of us picked Brunson. For crossroads guy, you took Mitchell and I took Paolo and Franz as a combo. Who ended up being the crossroads guy? From the playoffs.

I don't even know what the definition of crossroads guy is.

Just like we leave the playoffs going, whoa, there— I guess it's Fox.

Crossing to the wrong side of the road?

No, it's just like you're at the crossroads with this guy on your team, or that, or this guy in his career. I'd probably Fox. Defensive stud, I had OG Anunoby, you had Derrick White. It's nice. Um, feel-good star, you had LaMelo, I had Tatum.

Well, this was before the play-in tournament. We did this, we counted the play-in teams.

Hot seat coach, you had Jamal Mosley. I had Ime Adoka. Hot seat wildcard, we really, you had Zachary Richeson. I had De'Aaron Fox.

We really nailed this one.

Woo! Legacy guy, I had Brunson, you had Jokic. I think I took Brunson before. I'm not gonna brag about that. You had for second banana Karl-Anthony Towns and I had Jalen Duren. So you hit that. And you had Aaron— I— you had Mikael Bridges and I had Aaron Gordon for third banana.

Although I guess Bridges is not the third banana now.

The leap, I had Maxie, you had Steph Castle. I think we both hit that. Fine, right?

Yeah.

Trade machine guy, you had Julius Randle, I had J Dub, so one for two there, you win. Um, weak link, you had Jalen Green, I had Tobias. And then we had a Coda guy for some reason. You had KD and I had Curry.

Neither of those hit, but boy did the KD Coda to his career not hit in these playoffs.

But that's what, oh, and for beloved bench guy, I had Luke Cornett and you had Peyton Pritchard. Anyway, that was a snapshot of how we were feeling before the playoffs. And I don't, I don't know if—

Bonus guy who has to be mentioned. I had Jaylen Brown and you had Anthony Edwards.

Hmm. So I'm trying to think who we didn't have. Dylan Harper. Dylan Harper is the big one that's missing, huh?

Wemby. Did any of you, none of us took Wemby?

No, I had Wemby for Apex Superstar.

Apex Superstar.

You know who we didn't have was Mitch Johnson. So what happens with him now?

He's the coach of the Spurs. Okay. I don't think there's anything.

There's not? No. You think they're delighted with how he coached the team in the finals?

It's, you, there's no universe. I think they're probably a little, there are things to work on for sure. But there's no world in which they're making a coaching change.

Didn't think there were. I'm just asking if the, okay. Did the seat get a little hotter? No. Okay.

No.

Did for me. Top 5 NBA stories other than the Finals. Now that the Finals are over.

Okay. We just, we're just gonna, we're okay. All right, let's do it.

What else do you have?

No, that's it.

You have any more final stuff?

No, let's go top 5 stories. I just didn't make a list. I didn't know we were doing this. So let's go. Let's go. I mean, number, number 1's obvious.

What do you think number 1 is?

Giannis.

I had the top 10 order of the draft. That's become— this is number 1 or 2 expertise.

Yeah. It's number 1 or 2.

I'm really fascinated with what's happening to this draft because I'm, I think AJ, I am now at, I would bet anything AJ is gonna be the first pick. Anything.

Anything.

I'll take the bet. He's -500 on Fanduel. I would lay it down if, if I could do it in California. And I think Boozer's gonna go 2, and I think Peterson will go 3 to Memphis, and we'll see how he handles that. And then Wilson 4. Nobody knows who's going 5 to the Clippers. Nobody. People just had Wagner written in there, and now it feels like people are a little more lukewarm on him, and maybe they trade back, but that 5 to 10 range is gonna be fascinating. And then Golden State's sitting there at 11 hoping somebody drops. So I'm interested in that. I'm gonna, I'm holding Giannis straight to the end here. The Reaves contract, does that provoke interest from you or you just feel like the Lakers take care of him?

That provokes interest for me.

I would guess the Lakers, I would bet the Lakers take care of him, but you know, would you feel good about paying him $50 million a year after the series you just watched?

Which series?

The Finals, the Knicks Spurs series. Just thinking about like that level of basketball.

And I look, I don't feel great about paying a lot of players $50 million a year in a salary cap, second apron environment. But what's my alternative? I feel okay.

Pay him $50 million a year.

I feel okay. But then I, then he is not on my team and I have to figure out what's my team around Luka Dončić.

The problem for them is they have to pay him because Luka's like, what do you mean you're not paying him? He's my second best teammate. But I think that really, to two $50+ million guys makes everything really hard. So I had that, I have, what does Cleveland do? I think is a really good one. I'm prepared for basically anything with that, although I haven't heard anything about them being involved with Giannis. Have you?

I think they're always hovering on the periphery, but it would very clearly take Mobley and it would take Giannis indicating that he would sign a long-term extension there. And it just feels like a pretty unlikely series of events.

He has not indicated that at all. And then before we get to Giannis, LeBron. Oh, sure. What happens with that is a good one, right?

It always is. It always is.

This one's a really fun one cuz the Warriors is really in play now. Like for real, I really feel like if I had to bet my life on a team, I think I would bet on them.

Stop betting your life and everything on these teams.

It's, it's, it's too— I'm not, I'm not actually betting it.

Yeah.

But that's what I think that would be the move for me. Okay.

Well, and that, and that's attached to the Cleveland topic too. At least they, they have to be at least monitored for that.

Yeah. But how does he, that would basically be him doing 30 million a year and then them trading Jared Allen to the Lakers.

I don't know.

I don't know how it works.

I've been, I've been in the Finals bunker, but, or, or he takes an enormous pay cut, which I don't see. But who knows?

I don't know. We've never, we've never seen a famous rich guy take a giant pay cut other than Karl Malone that one time. Um, the honest trade.

Is that 5 storylines already?

Yeah, those are the 5. Why do you have another one?

Well, I mean, aspiration. Oh, wrapping up. I mean, Adam Silver kind of, Adam Silver for the first time kind of acknowledged that his, which I think it was before game one, he's like, yeah, it's taken a while. We gotta wrap this one up, guys. A lot of billable hours. Can we, can we just get to the end of this?

If you're the Clippers, do you hope it wraps up after you have the 5th pick of the draft? 'Cause that would be one of my hopes. Can we wrap this up in July, guys?

Yeah. Finals.

I don't wanna lose my 5th pick if I'm—

they're probably, you think they were rooting for a 7-game finals just to shrink the window between the finals and the draft?

All right. That's a good one too. So Giannis.

Mm-hmm.

What are you hearing?

I think the Bucks, I think, well, I mean, they're trading him. I would be shocked at this point if they didn't. They obviously know what Miami's offer is. They have not traded him to Miami yet. So other things are afoot and I don't know how many teams are realistically in it. I, you, you have talked about it. I would definitely watch Boston potentially dipping their, the diving in, not just dipping their toe in, but diving in.

I think they, I think they dove in. They made, From what I heard, they made an offer in the past week, a couple days before I mentioned on Thursday. Okay. I don't know what the offer was and I don't know who's in it, but they are in— hat was in the ring, which I was really surprised by, as I said on Thursday, 'cause I thought they were sitting it out. And I don't know, do you think something changed? Do you think they looked at this from every angle or that they realized, oh, that, that's it for the Miami offer. We can beat that. Like what, what would've changed their mindset? Because I do not think they were in on Giannis at the beginning of the offseason.

I don't think they were ever out. I just, the safest bet is always inertia, right? Like the safest bet is we know that the nucleus we have works really well. And there's some degree of risk in shaking that up for a 31-year-old who's been injury-prone and we're going to have to sign him to a ginormous extension. That's a big pivot for a team that has a pretty large window now of being one of the best teams in the NBA when everyone's healthy. But I think it's probably just frustration with how the season ended. Some public comments that had been made after the season that ruffled some feathers, I'm sure. And again, like a dearth of like, how many teams are we really competing against if we go for them? And I'm not saying they've gone, gone for them, but maybe they have. There's Miami. Like, I don't really know how real the Portland thing is. Is he signing an extension in Portland? I don't think so. I don't think he's going to say that upfront anyway. Orlando, I'm not sure how real that one is yet. Toronto, I just don't think they have enough to get it done because obviously they're not putting Scottie Barnes in that deal.

So I don't really know even if they wanted to do it or make an offer what it would be. I mean, I just, there just aren't that many teams that are going to, you know, rock the boat to the degree the Bucks are going to need it rocked.

On top of that, he wants to go to Miami or Boston, and I think Boston over Miami because he has a better chance to win a title in Boston. Miami's going to trade all this stuff on the side and just have him and Bam and then have to figure it out.

Like, and it's been made clear, I think Oklahoma City's out. There's not going to be a panic Chet trade. Other team, I can tell you for sure, other teams have checked on Chet and been stiff-armed. San Antonio is obviously out. The team that has been curiously unmentioned, and I think is unmentioned because they haven't been in is Houston in terms of teams that have assets, right? Like I just, I, yeah. And then one of my, I don't know if it's top 5 interesting stories, but just a team that has a lot of assets and I just like, is Brooklyn really just going to like, what are they going to do? Are they going to be like the Reaves offer sheet team or the Reaves like count offer team? Are they going to be, Are they willing to just be bad again? Like, what are they actually going to do?

Yeah, because you do the Reeves offer sheet. When can you do it? Like July 1st?

Well, it's not— he's unrestricted, so they don't have to worry about that.

But you can't— I mean, you can't offer him the money until— I guess you could do wink wink before it. I don't know. Is he really going to leave the Lakers to go to the Brooklyn Nets to play with 17 point guards, none of whom are impact guys. Here's the problem for the Nets and why I, I've been on this one for a few weeks, like just of being interested in it. They don't like— the best guys to take at number 6 are all point guards, and they just invested last year in a bunch of point guards, including they spent the 8th pick on a point guard. So you basically be punting on last year's draft. I just think it'd be weird if they took Acuff. Akhaf is the guy they should take if he's there. But how does that make sense with the rest of the team you have? I don't get that. So I'm with you. I could see them trading him, trading that pick for a star.

I'm just waiting for the Nets rumbling that makes sense to me because like, even like they, they've, they keep like every couple weeks you'll hear like, well, they're still a team to watch for Giannis. And, and I'm like, well, okay, why? And why is Giannis going there? And who else is going there? Like, I just, I don't know. What the right move is. By the way, Knicks probably can be ruled out for Giannis at this point. That's in a trade.

Well, I mean, I'm sure Milwaukee in the back of their heads was wondering, could that be a potential suitor if something weird happens in the Finals? It's not gonna be the Spurs.

Something weird did happen. The Knicks won the Finals in dominant fashion with a 16-3 playoff run.

Yeah. I think Boston's gonna get Giannis.

Okay.

And I think it will happen in the next week would be my prediction. I would not bet my life on it, but I think—

how do you feel about that?

I'd— pretty ambivalent. It's for all the reasons I did, um, like a month ago when I was going through the stats of all these guys in their 14th season or later and 32 years old later, these big guys that it's just history is against it. Now we're in a different era. It's 2026. There's different ways to take care of your body and advancements in medicine. We have a guy on the Lakers who was 41 years old averaging 25 points a game last year. True. So who knows? But I think it's pretty risky. It, I'm more interested like why they're in it now and I don't think they were in it before. And is there, is there stuff they're seeing with Jaylen Brown that makes them realize like, oh, this guy got a taste of being the star and we can't go back to where we were in 2024 anymore. We have two guys who think they're the best guy in this team and this is not going to be resolved.

Can I ask you a total devil's advocate question related to this? Again, it's a devil's advocate question. Okay. It's a rhetorical device. But if I conclude that I want to get Giannis, and if just mathematically I have to trade one of the Jays to get Giannis, why is it just assumed that it's Jaylen Brown and not Jason Tatum? After the year Jaylen Brown just had and Jason Tatum's coming off an Achilles injury? Just a question that at least needs to be asked. I under— I know the answer. I understand Jason Tatum's better than Jaylen Brown. First team All-NBA. I'd have him higher ranked and all that. But isn't it interesting? It's just, it's just completely assumed.

It's a fair question. He's, he's younger, but he is coming off the injury. I think he's considered to be a more popular ticket-selling superstar than Jaylen is.

Right.

Better shooter.

Better— has been a better player. I get it. Yeah.

And I, I think there's probably like a slightly higher ceiling. And then with Jalen, maybe you're thinking it's time to sell high. He's never gonna have a better season than the last one.

Fair.

I always wanted them to stay together, but the, the more I look at it, I just wonder, um, it's just a lot of weirdness during and after the season. Like even, even little stuff like Like Jaylen St. Tatum's gonna come on his Twitch stream.

I didn't see that.

When did that happen? Well, that, this was like a month ago when he did the, he was like, oh, we're gonna have J, J, we're gonna have Jason on. Hasn't been on. Like, are those, do those guys get along? I, I literally have no idea. And I don't know, I don't know if that's a piece of this or not, but you also have Giannis who has Drew Hanlen, who's, you know, also Tatum's guy. And I, I just, I just feel like we see where the tea leaves are going with this one. Now, there was, there were Trey Murphy rumors. I don't know how they would get Giannis and Trey Murphy. I'm not gonna believe that one. That seems crazy. But do I think Giannis makes more sense in a Boston deal than a Miami deal if Jaylen's in the deal? Yeah, because that's a better player than anyone in Miami. Miami's like, we'd love to get Giannis. You can't have Batman Adebayo. Like, Like, what, at, at that point, are you making a real offer or not? And you could offer all these picks and all these other things, but that's not, who, who's your centerpiece?

You're trading a guy who won you the title in 2021 and has been with your franchise since 5 years ago and has been in your city since 2013 and you're gonna trade him for a bunch of stuff and you can't point to one thing.

I will say, okay, to, to, to, just for the sake of fairness, I do think new lottery rules, 31-year-old injury-prone player going to Miami who guts the rest of its non-Bam roster to get him. I think those picks, the, the further out you get the Miami picks, there's real upside, real upside in those picks. On the flip side, what is Jaylen Brown doing for me if I'm the Milwaukee Bucks? I guess what he's doing for me is like, again, there's upside if we become a 38-win team or a 42-win team and miss the playoffs and he just proved that he's actually better than people thought. Maybe we do like get Jaylen Brown, nail a couple fringe signings. Suddenly we're like a feel-good 47-win team. Is, is that better than, and then he has trade value. Maybe we flip him. Yeah, I don't, I think it's, these are all questions worth, but don't you think that it's a 3-teamer if Boston's in it?

I would, I can't imagine they end up with Jaylen Brown. I would assume he goes to Portland or Atlanta or somewhere else.

I think that's all possible.

Those, the more teams I gotta say the Portland one makes a lot of sense.

It's one of, it's been one of my favorite, my two favorite conjured up Giannis trades are the three-teamer where Jaylen Brown goes to Portland and some other stuff goes everywhere. And then the, the Bucks get their draft assets back from Portland.

Get the draft assets back, you get Scoot back, you probably get something else from Boston.

Oh wow, Scoot's getting thrown in there.

I think he has to. If, if I'm trading Giannis, I need my picks back and I need to at least have Scoot. And then if I'm Portland and I end up with Denny and Jaylen Brown together with Clingan, with Dame, with, uh, with Camara, with, with Sharps there. Like I, I, I still have Jrue Holiday. Like I, I'm kind of excited about that team. Well, some, some pretty interesting team.

One of those guys may not be there, but, and I, which guy? Well, I'd like Sharp or Holiday may move. I wouldn't know.

I mean, Holiday would want to be there, but, um, I would assume Jeremy Grant would be going to Milwaukee if, That would be the guy that I would move if I'm getting Jalen Brown. Possibly. Yeah. And I, I think Portland makes more sense than Atlanta or New Orleans.

And I always liked the Bankaro one. I mean, I've been talking about it since the beginning of last season when I had to remind myself he was not really, he was kind of poison-pilled because of the cap rules. He's not anymore. I just like, that's an interesting one. I don't, again, I don't know if that one has any actual legs.

Do you think what Boston watched in these last two rounds would make them more prone to trade for Giannis? I actually think it would for me.

For what reason?

Well, I gotta beat the Knicks. Physicality. The Knicks are kind of, were kind of built to beat Boston and did, right? And then, um, I have no inside-out game and I'm jacking up threes, which Stevens made a point of saying in that press conference, like, I'm tired of losing the way we're losing. Um, we need to be more unpredictable offensively. We need inside-outside. So all that ties to Giannis. I just, I don't know if it's a great idea. I'm really, I'm really like, I wish I was more excited about it. Like part of me hopes Miami just gets them and they try to figure out how to make the Tatum-Brown thing work. These guys played together 9 years and that would be my preference, but we will see.

Yeah, there's a chance if Boston does it that it ends up being just kind of a lateral move. Like it, it's just like if, if, if it's the deal we're thinking of, or Jaylen Brown goes out, then like, yeah. It maybe it just doesn't, do you play differently and maybe end up in the same place? Which has been largely a very good place. But although as you've pointed out, they've had very, they've had crazy playoff success and some crushing playoff outcomes around.

There's no way they get, if they're in on Giannis, I don't see how Jalen's not in it. You're not getting him for Derrick White. No, no. All the rest are your picks, right? So it has to be, has to be Jalen.

Well, and it's just then you're, if, if it's, you can't, I mean, you can't have 3 guys making $70 million on your team. It's just not, it's not tenable.

Is there a wildcard I'm prepared to put my seatbelt on for this team team for you over the next 10 days?

Just crazy offseason overall.

Just like I'm just ready for anything. 'Cause I think for me, Denver would be that team. I don't, ooh, I don't know what I'm prepared for and maybe I'm not prepared for anything, but I also don't know how they just run it back.

I guess I just am anticipating a more predictable offseason for Denver. But again, they've already said, they haven't said, but it's been reported that everybody but Jokic is on the table, which, you know, that there's a, there's some everybody's there. I guess I think we're all expecting New Orleans to do some stuff, right? With Trey Murphy and other places. I think like Minnesota always seems to be always seems to be thinking outside the box. Yeah. And, and, and they just watched Oklahoma City and San Antonio, and those are the teams they've gotta compete with. I'd keep an eye on them. Atlanta, I don't really know what their appetite is for something big, but they certainly have a lot of different directions they could go.

On a small scale, I'm interested in OKC just 'cause they have, I think, 12 and 17 plus all these picks. Like there's, some sort of like non-major move that could still be really fun for us. And then Charlotte with 14 and 18 in the draft could get frisky somewhere. And that's, I always thought that made sense as the Sabonis team. I had one person who is very, very into the Charlotte team who's like, well, we have Diabate, why do we need Sabonis? It's like, I don't know, I just like Sabonis. I feel like he's, I feel like Sabonis is undervalued now where he's just become like this sunk cost. I don't think he is like, I still feel like there are good teams for him.

They're a center away from being really interesting. And he would definitely have the, uh, Tim Robbins, I just escaped Shawshank balance, right? Getting out of Sacramento.

He's just, he's, he's gonna be 20-14 wherever he goes, right? The problem is if your team can't play defense, which I don't know if maybe Charlotte's not the right team for him from that standpoint, but I still value him as an as like a kind of a buy-low asset.

Charlotte's also going to be in a position with 12, 14, whatever they end up doing is with the, uh, to draft a center. And I think that needs to be factored in as well.

Yeah. And then Houston's the other one that I'm— Houston might just decide to run it back. Just, hey, we had bad luck last year. Let's, we'll bring Gabe Lee back. We'll bring Adams back. And, uh, and everything will be fine. But I find that one hard to believe.

It does feel like a long, long time ago that Reed Shepard shot 30% in the playoffs and had one of the more disastrous turnovers of the last calendar year in the NBA. It's a long—

yeah, that does feel like forever. So in general, the playoffs, the first two rounds were pretty blah. The round three Knicks-Cavs was awful, unless you're a Knicks fan. Okay. San Antonio had a really fun Game 1 and a fascinating Game 7. All the middle games were pretty, pretty blah. And then the Finals was, was one of the most entertaining 5-game Finals we've ever had in our lives.

I don't think you could even get a better 5-game Finals. I think this is just the apex of a, of a 5-game Finals. I mean, every game was a nail-biter. The total score was Knicks plus 12 over 5 games. Like, I, I just, every game would had you, They were similar and yet everyone unfolded a little bit differently and just, it was edge of your seat the whole time.

I'm trying to think of other ones. '90, the '90 Finals, which I mentioned earlier, was actually a great Finals. Pistons-Blazers, just a good matchup, really good games. And that Blazers team had a little bit of Spurs-itis where they just did dumb shit at the worst possible times. But yeah, it's pretty rare to have a really good 5-game series.

You're talking 5 or less.

5 or less. Well, 4 is usually pretty hard to find a good 4-1, but yeah.

Well, the Lakers, the Lakers would argue, and they got swept by Denver in 2023, one of the all-time great sweeps.

Well, Kenny Atkinson this year, he was, oh, well, yeah, he had, he thought that was, yeah, that was another one.

We really could do a really fun, just 15, hey, remember when that happened moments from the NBA playoffs every year. And like, that would've been, I, that's already been pushed back to the back of my brain. Like we're analytically Up 2-1.

Congratulations. Yeah. When we had in the first couple rounds, like we had that improbable Philly-Boston comeback and it, the, the one week where it seemed like Embiid was back as an asset and then he just wilted in the next series. But we had a Paul George resurgence. There was a lot of funky shit happening. All right, Zach Lowe, thanks for staying up late. Oh, 1:30 in the morning. You'll be lying in bed with your heart pounding for the next 2 hours.

No, I won't. I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go have a glass of wine cuz I can't go to sleep and that'll help me go to sleep. And I never, this is, this is early for me on a team. If I'm at the championship clinching game, I'm usually up till 4, you know, hanging out with people who are celebrating.

And so this is what was your bet? What was your best memory of that for the hanging out till 5 in the morning with the, with team that won the title?

One of the Warriors parties, I won't name which one. Um, was really, really fun. Um, and I finagled my way in and one day when I'm retiring and I don't care anymore, I'll tell a fun story from, from that party.

Uh, oh, I can't wait.

That is, yeah. That the, for now goes in the vault, uh, that I still, the, the main characters and I still laugh about it, uh, every once in a while.

And your next podcast will probably be Monday, I'm guessing.

Yeah, I think, I think Monday morning. I think we're just deviating from normal calendar Tuesday, Thursday. Like I, I gotta, I I gotta think a little bit more about this and talk Knicks, and I'm hoping to get a couple of guests and we'll just, I, but I, I'm aiming to record tomorrow night, like wrap up the Finals, wrap up the playoffs, talk about some of this offseason stuff. And just, I, I like to luxuriate in the championship. This is why we all do this, is to, to have what the Knicks just had. Let's, let's luxuriate in a little bit before we pivot to Giannis. Although who knows, Giannis could get traded tomorrow and then we have an emergency podcast right away.

The big bad West, 1 for 3 in titles last 3 years.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

They beat the hell— they beat the hell out of— they beat the hell out of each other.

2 of the last 3 titles have come from the East. We're back, baby. Who won in '22?

The Warriors.

Warriors. '21 was the Bucks. 3 of the last 5 coming from the East.

Lakers, 19 Raptors. So we, they were all alternating for the last 7, 8 straight, 8 straight.

What a slump for the West.

8 straight new champions, you know, as, as much trumpeted stat.

Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as always. Don't forget I have rewatchables coming tomorrow night. The Hand That Rocks the Cradle. Scary. Next issue from Hell Month. And then Zach will have a podcast probably in the next 36 hours. Zach Lowe, thanks for staying up with me.

Congrats to the New York Knicks.

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