Transcript of 2026 Finals Lessons, Giannis’s Next Stop, Brunson’s Apex, and Mike Brown’s Magic Touch With Doc Rivers

The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by PayPal. We are also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where you can find the new episode of the Rewatchables. We put it up Sunday night, Hand That Rocks the Cradle, part of From Hell Month. The next one is gonna be Domestic Disturbance with John Travolta and Vince Vaughn. This movie's really something. It's on Netflix right now if you wanna go Check it out. Don't forget all our basketball and soccer coverage. I'm loving the World Cup. The World Cup's been fantastic. Uh, you can check out the beautiful pod with Adam Friedland and Chris Ryan has been popping on there a bunch. We've had a whole bunch of fun guests. That's on Adam's feed. Ringer Gambling Show as well. A lot of good gambling tips. I'm gonna have the Bundo on, I think at the end of the week to talk, uh, even, even more soccer. Try to get some tips before we have this amazing USA game on, uh, on Friday. Can't wait for that. All right. Doc Rivers, he came here for a game, or didn't come here, but we did a podcast together after Game 1.

Have not talked to him since the Finals. Just a lot of big historical stuff coming from that Finals. A lot of strategy stuff. We had to talk Giannis, what we think's gonna happen this summer with all different teams, favorite players, refs, all kinds of things from his last season with the Bucks. And, and he came over, which was great. So we're gonna take a break, Pearl Jam, and then in the house, Doc Rivers next. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by PayPal. You know a clutch move when you see one, a no-look pass, a buzzer beater, a big steal. Well, imagine if your wallet could pull off moves like that. That, my friends, is PayPal. Right now you can find offers from hundreds of brands like Sony, Allbirds, and Viater, and save offers before you check out. Earn unlimited rewards. Plus you can add those rewards on top of credit card points. Now that is clutch. Download the PayPal app today. Save those offers. Start scoring rewards. Terms and exclusions apply. See paypal.com/rewardsterms. Credit card points subject to issuers' terms and conditions. All right, Doc Rivers is here in studio. We've never— this is great.

Look at this. This is nice.

This has got posters, people you played with in the jam session.

Yeah, I see Austin Carr up here, which I was telling you my son Austin Rivers was named after. I played with my uncle Jim Brewer.

You, did you have a Nike poster or no?

Converse? No, no. I had a Reebok.

You had a Reebok poster. I had a Reebok poster. That's what it was.

Yeah, yeah.

I gotta get that, baby. I gotta hunt that down.

I have to get that again.

We have so much to talk about, but let's do Finals 'cause you never talked about that. So what, big picture, levitating over everybody, what'd you think? Like what was your big takeaway from that series?

I wanted more. The first take, you know, it was interesting, Bill. I played for the Knicks.

Yeah.

And I played for the Spurs.

Right.

And so I caught myself going back and forth, you know, you know, I was a Knick longer, so probably lean more that way.

Right.

You know, but I just wanted more basketball. And it got to the point, my son Spencer said it, 'cause he was cheering for the Spurs. 'Cause where he, when he grew up, he was living in San Antonio.

Right.

So he's cheering for the Spurs and he says, "I don't want any more basketball." And I was like, "What?" He's like, "I can't take them doing the same thing every game." Karaoke. Getting out to a lead, losing the lead.

Here comes Brunson.

Here it comes down the stretch of the game.

Yeah.

But let's take a snapshot of the whole series. There was a lot of interesting things that happened to me. Obviously, You know, the Wimby turnover, the pass, right?

Game 2.

Game 2. But I thought where the game and the series changed was after Game 3, after—

San Antonio won Game 3.

San Antonio won. And Mike Brown walked into the media room and complained about fouls. And I thought, I didn't think it at the time, thought it was a brilliant thing to do. I don't think that's why he was doing it, or maybe he was. But if you look from that point on how it was called against him, Bronson, like Game 5, he had 18 free throws.

Right.

The comeback game, and I talked about this with you, where everybody missed, in my opinion, it wasn't even talked about, was Cassell. Got in foul trouble right before the second quarter. They had to take him out. That's when Brunson got cooking.

Yeah.

He picks up his fourth 2 or 3 minutes into the third quarter.

It was 2 minutes in.

Yeah. So now he is off the floor again, comes back in, picks up his fifth. So Brunson, that whole 29-point stretch, did it without having to deal with Castle.

Yeah.

And I thought that was huge. For the Knicks and for Brunson.

Well, then it felt like it affected Castle in Game 5.

It did.

He was bad in Game 5. It was like he lost his mojo.

Yeah. And defensively, you know, all series against Oklahoma, against everybody, you've been able to be physical and been up. And now he was thinking about it. You could see he was worried about it. You look at those last two drives by Brunson that they, he hadn't done that all series.

Yeah.

They wasn't gonna let him do it. They wasn't gonna let him just go down the lane 'cause they were more physical on him. But they were concerned about fouls. Where I thought, you know, you always go, well, what could Mitch had done? And listen, if I was coaching the Spurs, I wouldn't have thought of this either at the time because it wouldn't have been on my mind. We just won a game. But if you watch the series, who was fouled the most? Brunson or Wemby?

Wemby.

Yeah, probably Wemby. At least even, right? but no one said anything about it. You know? And the difference was Wimby was fouled more off the ball. Every time he cut, every time he moved. I mean, they were, they were forearming him, they were hitting him. Even the alleged flagrant foul that Wimby really was just pushing down on Brunson.

Yeah.

He was pushing down on him because Brunson was grabbing his jersey. Right. And he turned around and was like, get off of me. You know, so it looked badder than, worse than what it really was.

Right.

All right. So, but I really thought that's where that series changed. And then San Antonio's inability, we talked about this in game 1, I think, if it came down to a 1-minute game, the Knicks are gonna win. Yeah.

Even in game 5, when it got to 83-83, it's like—

Yeah. This is done. And nothing San Antonio really could have done about it because, The Knicks know exactly who they are.

Yeah.

The last 5 minutes of a game. They know exactly what they're running. They know exactly who they're running it through with Brunson. They may change the guy who sets a pick. They usually put Towns in the parking lot because now you've just taken the center, guarding him outside the paint.

I like that phrase, parking lot.

Yeah, yeah. And so now you're left, if you go, you're leaving a great 3-point shooter.

Yeah.

So I thought every game in those 5 games, the last 4 or 5 minutes, it was this veteran team that also had a closer.

Yeah.

You remember Hubie Brown? I remember when I was first started coaching and that was one of the things he told me. He's like, if you don't have a closer, Doc, I don't care how good your team is. He said, it's just like a company.

Yeah.

If you don't have a closer in your company that can, that can close the deal, you are going to lose the deal. And that's what it felt like.

Now— Well, ironically, the closer for San Antonio was Harper.

Yeah.

And they didn't—

Yeah, but—

They didn't want to admit it yet. And he probably wasn't 100% ready either.

Yeah, he wasn't ready for, even though they used him more in game 5.

Game 5, he had a couple big plays down the stretch.

Got downhill.

Missed the layup.

Yeah, missed the layup though. But Fox has been a great closer.

Yeah.

Fox has been in the top 5 of closers over the last 4 or 5 years.

But he lost his confidence though.

I don't know if he lost his— he definitely lost something. I thought he lost his health first and then confidence second. You know?

'Cause there wasn't the explosiveness getting into the basket in the same way.

No.

And then that him getting in the basket then allows him to do that little turnaround 8-foot shot that he's great at.

Well, you also—

And it all plays off each other.

You didn't hear one time Mike Breen or Legs or any of 'em say, "Fox is the fastest guy in the NBA." That's something you hear all year.

Right, that's where it was 2 years ago.

Yeah, you don't, you didn't hear it one time. And you know, maybe the sprained ankle had some impact on him. It definitely had on the shooting. I thought what Mitch Rand was terrific. They got that shot even in the Game 5. He came off that little, we call it Shake Special.

Yeah.

Is a play that I run. It's a secondary second pick and roll. Wemby DHOs, the guard comes off, Fox got to his breadbasket. I mean, right where he wanted. And it wasn't close.

Right.

Like, and then he had the wide open 3. So—

I never thought his shots were going in when it mattered, which is a bad place to get to, right? It got to that point. Yeah, that's not going in.

Yeah, it really did get to that point.

Whereas OG, every shot I thought was going in.

Yeah, even the bad shots.

I see it half court, it's still going in.

Even the bad shots OG, you thought were going in. It's amazing what a series can do. You know, but like for Mitch, what— that puts a coach in a tough spot. You've had a— you had this closer that has been reliable. He's been reliable for you.

Yeah.

In Game 7 in Oklahoma, he made every shot.

Right.

So you don't go away from it. You know, you keep going to it. And give Mitch credit, he did. But it just kept coming up snake eyes.

Right.

I mean, over and over again. You know, and Wimby's gonna learn a lot. He'll learn a lot from this series. Someone was talking the difference between him and Jabbar. And I said, well, Jabbar was still in college at that age.

Right. Dave was a senior at UCLA, probably. Yeah.

And Wimby's in the Game 7 of NBA Finals. So let's give him a great spirit.

I do think it's a real issue that he can't seem to play more than 30 minutes.

Well, I think he's—

He's like staggering around in these games when he's gotta go 40-plus.

But I think it's a league problem. As much as a Wimby problem. I think what the league does more is we give these minutes all year without the thought of ramping guys up as the playoffs gets closer and closer.

You know who didn't do that was Tibbs.

No, Tibbs ramped up from the start.

And by the way, it maybe— I had a good email from a mailbag pod I did the other day about, Tibbs kind of conditioned these guys to go these big minutes and carry these big loads.

Yeah, it's not, it wasn't something that they didn't expect.

Yeah.

Didn't want. Let me say this, players want to play.

Right.

Players don't actually want to sit. Players are told to sit and then they are now in this culture where they accept what the trainers are telling 'em. I came from the culture, we wasn't listening to the trainer. You know, we told the trainer, like if I came to a game and Joel too was my trainer with the Atlanta Hawks.

Yeah.

If Joel said, "Hey Doc, I think you should sit." I would say, "Get outta here." Right. And that was it. That was the conversation. There was no more.

But think about how much you were making in the Hawks compared to what these guys make now. These are like these—

Yeah, look at—

$50 million a year promise.

Look at me walk. Look at me walk and move now. Look at you, baby.

Maybe you should've listened to Joe.

I should've listened to Joe more. That's a fact.

But I do think they're more careful because not only are they paying a ton of money for the best players, but if something goes wrong with one of the best players, you almost, you don't have an out. Like, look at you with Giannis this year. Like, it ended your season single-handedly that he didn't play.

Well, that's because we didn't have a second guy.

Right.

You know, teams—

But most teams don't.

Most teams do. You know, if Brunson went out, they still have Towns and other guys. You know, but you're not gonna win it.

No.

You're not gonna win it. If your best guy is out of the playoffs, You may make a run. We made a run in '09, but you're not winning it. And where it always comes up when you have a guy out, it's not game 1 through 5 if you can get there, it's game 6 and 7.

Right.

Those are the games that are almost unwinnable for you.

That happened to Oklahoma City.

Yeah, because they didn't have that extra guy. It was obvious.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The Wemby part of this, so you'd think like he doesn't have the signature shot yet.

Not yet.

He's now dealing with it.

I love the shot he missed in Game 2.

Which one?

The one at the elbow. That was a pick and roll pop right to the elbow. That's his breadbasket, right?

Yeah, I wonder like what are his spots gonna be? Because it's so—

Yeah, that elbow will be one for sure.

Yeah, like top of the foul line. 'Cause it sounds, it seems like he has a lot of trouble getting to the block. Like Kareem would, he would do that weird thing where he would kind of back in and take these little weird steps. And then all of a sudden he was in his spot.

But Caleb didn't do that. Well, Kareem got to his spot and then the jump hook, I mean there's a sky hook. No one's ever gonna have that shot. If Wimby can develop a sky hook, the game's over for everybody.

By the way, how about, can we get a jump hook?

You know what I—

Everybody in the league has a jump hook.

So I was on the phone with about 4 or 5 coaches.

Yeah.

Day before yesterday. And we were just talking about the game.

Yeah.

Right? And what would each guy do with Wimby? And one of the guys said, you know, everybody's talking about the back to the basket. "The only thing with back to the basket is, yeah, we'll throw it to you and they're gonna trap you and then you have to give it up." Yeah. And he said, "No one is talking about Jack Sigma." And he's like, "What if Wimby just face?" Jack Sigma? What if he face you? And if you don't, what can you do?

Well, that was the old Tim Duncan, right?

Yeah.

Just face you. Like 12 feet from the basket.

And just shoot it. Like on the post, turn, face, shoot it. If they come up on you, Put it on the floor. You know, I think that's a move he will have to develop. I remember sitting with Pop and watching Wimby practice his rookie year, 'cause I was doing TV.

Yeah.

And—

For those 2 months?

Yeah, for those 2 months. And I actually said it and Pop's like, "Thank you, thank." I said, "Why is he fading?" Well, that was the Wilt Chamberlain problem. Yeah, yeah. Just go up and shoot. Right.

Why are you going backwards?

Yeah, no one's gonna block your shot.

Also, he's a great free throw shooter.

Great. So that's the difference. He can really shoot the ball and it's a balance issue at times with him. You could see he's off balance a lot. You know, that may be strength, that may be balance.

And fatigue.

And fatigue. Yeah.

Yeah. So KG had, he had the little turnaround.

Yes.

Near the baseline. But then I always liked when he faced up.

Oh. And he would do like the stutter step, the stop and do the little jump. And he encounters everything.

Yeah. Wemby, when, when did he do that face rubber?

KG would be a great, great guy for Wemby to work with. They have the same type of intensity. Right.

But KG— Yeah, he's like a much taller Wemby, basically.

Yeah. KG's workouts were amazing. I mean, he used to put these shoes on the floor, which as a coach I had never seen. You know, we use cones. He would actually put two shoes and make them face like the player. 'Cause he said, "I want to attack the feet." So he would just, he would stand there and he moved the shoes over and attack that. Then he'd put the two shoes over and attack that. It was genius.

So he would always look at the feet over anything else?

Yeah. Yeah. He wanted to attack the feet. And he, he, he—

Interesting.

He would teach guys. If he saw one foot just turned, he'd say, "He's dead. He's dead." He knew exactly what he was gonna attack. So it was pretty impressive.

I remember there was the Dave DeBoucher thing where he always looked at the guy's eyes. And he said, "Everybody who is about to shoot looks at the rim no matter what they're doing. Eventually, they're gonna look at the rim." Well, they have to. "And that's when I know." And he was like, "The only guy who never did it was Earl Monroe." All of a sudden, he was shooting, and it was like, "You were looking over there.

How did you even—" That's pretty impressive.

But he said that was the only one. But he was like, "I always followed the eyes. That's why he was so good defensively." So KG's looking at the feet.

He's just look— He's got the ball, looking at— He squares up and he looks at your feet.

Yeah. Even if Wemby had the Tim Duncan face-up KG— kind of stutter step stop and he's shooting over you. And then just like a 7-foot jump hook.

Yeah, but even—

That's 2 more shots than he has now.

Yeah, but just the face up to me is because you can't double team him. He sees you coming. He will pick you apart, you know? And I think that's one thing they'll do in the end. And then more work at the elbows because I thought he was very efficient there most of the season. And it just seemed like they got away from it. But I felt the physicality and the fatigue. Played a major factor.

Well, they were doing a bunch of stuff with him too. Like on box outs, they were like ramming him in the back.

Oh, they hit him every chance they got. You have to. The other thing they did that Oklahoma didn't do, they attacked Wimby.

Yep.

Yeah. All three of the playoffs, no one attacked Wimby. They played away from Wimby. The Knicks, like, we're going right after you.

Right.

We're gonna attack you. We're gonna make you foul us. We're gonna make you move your feet. I thought that was a great gameplay.

And it felt like Brunson kind of figured him out as the series went along a little bit. 'Cause he really torched him a couple times.

It's crazy though, when you look at Brunson versus Wemby and Brunson is—

It's like an 18-inch difference.

Brunson is figuring anything out. Like, you know, it's unbelievable. Brunson, I tell you, man, every time you watch him, you get more and more impressed with him. I think you still watch him waiting for him not to be able to do what he does. You know, I think the whole league for 2 years are, well, he can't keep doing this. He can't. And he can. It's who he is.

Yeah. You almost feel like he's like a heat check guy.

Yeah. All game.

Yeah.

You know, and just the last game, you know, the 45, I mean, come on. He scored half the team's points. Like he willed a game for the New York Knicks to win a world championship.

Yeah. So I did a pod on Monday and I was, you know, my book of basketball where I ranked everybody.

Yeah.

And the big thing for the rankings was, were you the best guy on a title team? Did you, were you the alpha? Did you take a, take a team to the promised land? Which I just think is a different level of basketball. It is. So I had, I put Brunson, I put him a bunch, I changed my list and I put him 41 and I put him ahead of guys like Nash and Kidd and Luka. And I'm like, this is the whole point of basketball is to be the best guy on a title team and to do this stuff that he did in game 1 of the Cleveland series. Throughout the Finals, especially Game 5, which I think is in the running for one of the best Finals games played this century.

Yeah.

So I, you know, he's never been a first team NBA guy, but I feel like he has to be treated that way now.

I think he will be. You know, it's almost like the voters didn't believe either. You know?

I didn't vote for him. I voted for him second team.

Yeah. They don't believe even though his team's record is great. He keeps doing the same thing.

How about 29 points a game in 4 playoffs now?

Yeah.

This is a 4-year stretch where those are Shea stats, those are Kobe stats, everybody's stats.

Other than Michael.

Yeah.

Those are all the other great player stats.

Right.

The other thing I keep saying it and I'm gonna say it until the cows, you know, whatever, come in or whatever they're supposed to do. We don't evaluate what a great player is right, in my opinion.

I was so excited to talk to you about this.

Yeah. Because winning and leading is part of that. And if you can't do that, then really all you're doing is playing your game.

And you're putting up stats.

Yes. You know, I, I, you know, I gotta play my game. Well, winners play their game and they give room for everybody else on their team to play their game and they, Encourage, they do all the things that are required.

Right.

More than just score 30 points. You know, they lead, they push. You know, Michael pushed, he pushed his teammates, but he also trusted, you know, two of the games, two of the series they won came off on Michael Jordan pass. You know, he was willing to make the right play at the right time.

He was 11 assists a game in the '91 Finals.

Exactly. So. Right. He was willing to make the right play at the right time. And Brunson led their team to an NBA title. He didn't just play his team to an NBA title.

Well, and that's part of the problem. And I was really interested to see how people would react when I was like, this is where Brunson is now.

Yeah.

This is my system. I did this when Dwyane Wade won in '06, when Walton won in '77. Like, if you do this once, that's more important than what you did for 15 years. If he, if, You know, you made some conference finals and that's it. This is the whole point of playing basketball.

Because basketball's not boxing. It's a team game.

Yeah.

And you have to win to be considered a great player. And that's something that—

Well, think about what Paul Pierce, what '08 meant to him.

Yeah.

Like beating LeBron straight up and all that stuff.

There are some guys that never had talent around them. It's a small pool.

Well, I always use Barkley as the example. Like, to me, I don't hold no title against Barkley 'cause I feel like in '93, He was, he went against the best player of all time at the peak of his powers.

And he never had talent around him until he got to Phoenix.

Right. And Kevin Johnson let him down the first half of that Finals.

Yeah. Then he had a chance. But they, no offense, there were plenty of Bulls who wasn't winning that series in any way or form. They were just not, you know, the Bulls were the better team. I thought the Knicks were the better team that year, really, if you want me to be honest. But, I was on the Knicks and— I remember. Yeah. I, that, that still bothers me. You know, that, that loss to the Bulls. We were up 2-0 and then—

Well, Jordan put the double nickel on you in game 3, right? Or game 4.

Well, no, game 3, the, the media and I—

Oh, I like this. I don't know if we've talked about this.

Yeah. Game 3.

What happened with the media?

It was, I wanna say a 3 or 4 day break.

Yeah.

Between game 2 and 3, which allowed them to kind of, capture themselves a little bit. But more importantly, the media beat up Jordan every day 'cause they saw that he was at a casino.

Right.

And for 4 days or 3 days or whatever it was, Michael Jordan is sitting at home hearing that he let his team down.

Does he care anymore? What's wrong with this guy?

He's out gambling.

Yeah.

You know, and yeah, Jordan happened from that point on.

I think one of the toughest things with evaluating— so I look at that Knicks team and it basically comes down to that, the Charles Smith sequence, right?

Yeah.

And you could blame, okay, Charles Smith should have scored, maybe you should have had a slightly better player than Charles Smith, like, et cetera, et cetera. Or you go the other way and go, this is why the Bulls are so great. They protected the rim and they had no center out there. And those guys were so great in the moment. That's what made that team special.

That's the difference.

Yeah.

Like, it's not that Charles Smith missed the 3 layups. I lost BJ Armstrong late in the game and he got a 3. You know, it's a play we worked on all the time that you had to, you know, block out but not get sealed.

Yeah.

And I had to block out, I think it was Horace Grant. And as I was blocking him out, I got too low and now he seals me in that I couldn't get back on the ball swing and BJ makes a 3. I think we missed 2 technical foul free throws. In that game. I always took the— I was the best free throw shooter on the team. I think I played, I'm gonna go look now that I'm thinking about it. I think I played 38 minutes or 37 minutes. Both techs were in the timeout. I was out of the game. And so whoever shot 'em missed 'em.

So it was all like, it was like 10 little tiny things.

Yeah, it's always.

And Michael Jordan.

But at the end of the day, Who was our second best player?

Yeah.

I'm not sure. Starks was by the way he played, but he wasn't really the second best player every night. Where, you know, they had Pippen, you know, it was clear who their second best. So they—

Pippen was one of the 7 best guys in the league at that point.

Exactly. So when you make that case, it's hard to say that you would've won, but I think we would've. We had a chance.

I mean, San Antonio was a little like that too, right? Yeah. We're like, who is their second best player?

Well, it was Fox all year. But it might've been Harper by the time we got to the finals. By game 7, or by game 3.

Game 5, yeah.

Game 3, it was Fox. Yeah. It's something with Fox, I mean, it was Harper. It's something with Harper that he would make a mistake and come out and go back in. So, you know, there's this old adage, you don't know a player until you coach a player. There's something that he was doing that made him come out at times. And I couldn't figure it out.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So he's a 20-year-old point guard.

Yeah, that's part of it.

You were a point guard. Yeah. The stuff—

And he's like me too because, 100 times better than me.

You were really good.

But I wasn't a point guard in college. I just led the team in assists.

Yeah, yeah.

And then when I got drafted, I remember my first conversation with Mike Fratello, he said, "You're gonna be the point guard of Atlanta Hawks." And I'm like, okay.

You figured it out. It's like Dennis Johnson.

Oh, exactly.

But if we didn't have, in the '80s, we didn't have some traditional point guards like the way people think of them. It's like guys who bring up the ball and run the offense.

Isaiah was a traditional—

Well, then you would have the Isaiah, John Lucas, like Tiny Archerball types, Magic.

Magic wasn't traditional.

Yeah.

But he was a pure point guard.

Yeah.

You know? So yeah, I think Harper is that and probably, didn't execute things properly all the time, you know, but he'll learn all that. I mean, he is special. He's a special basketball player and he will be their second best player.

Like, I was trying to think of him in the context of when like Cade came into the league or Chris Paul.

Yeah.

People like that where you knew right away. I feel like that with him.

Yeah, Harper. Yeah, but they're completely different.

Totally.

I mean, Harper's a score.

Yeah.

He's a scoring point. Reminded me more of Rod Strickland with his finishing.

Ooh.

I mean, he can— Harper finishes at angles. You know, I think it was Game 5, the one where he was under the basket and—

The reverse, yeah.

I mean, come on. I couldn't have made that in the gym by myself.

Right.

I could have tried that shot 10 times and I'm missing it all 10 times. He's doing it in the NBA Finals with ease. You know, it's amazing.

And now it's time for Across the Eras, brought to you by New Era. The official cap of the NBA. So we just had the Finals, and as always, I thought a lot about history and the eras intersecting and some of the greatest matchups we've seen throughout history. The New Era NBA Hardwood Classics collection celebrates these legendary teams and eras and moments. So perfect time to put the Finals matchup side by side with a classic from the past. Gotta talk about Reggie Miller here. Like, When you think about new era players that bridge '80s, '90s, 2000s, Reggie Miller drafted in the '80s, really starts to hit it in the '90s. First, their— I think it was '91, he's in Larry Bird's last great moment, the '91 Boston and Indiana Final, first round. And then we go through, now he has the Knicks battles in '94 and '95, and then you go to '99. Um, they get their heart broken by LJ's, um, 4-point play. 2000, they make the Finals, and it really feels like Reggie's gonna finally get there and win it. And then, sadly for him, Kobe ascends. Um, and then, not to mention, in '98, they came the closest out of anyone to beating Jordan's Bulls.

So he intersects with Bird, Jordan, uh, Kobe, and Shaq. And then you go into the 2000s, and he has one last run. Like, they almost beat the Nets. Yeah. He's not involved in the Artesmalia, but he's on that team. He just saw a lot of things, man. And the basket— the sport's totally different by the time he's leaving there in the mid-2000s. 'Cause this 3-point shot that he was special at, now it's about to come back in a big way. 'Cause Steph Curry's about to join the NBA and the league and the geometry of the league is about to change. So Reggie Miller is a good one. Yeah. '80s all the way through the mid-2000s and boom, sports changing. Relive vintage logos and timeless icons with the NBA— I'm sorry, with the New Era NBA Hardwood Classics collection available in a wide range of silhouettes, including the iconic fitted 5950 or adjustables like the 940 of frame and 970. And some great hardwood classics apparel as well. Visit neweracap.com to shop now. Use one-time code RINGER for 20% off your first order. So you talk about like the little differences between teams. Like, so I went to the Bird-Dominique game, which you were great in.

You got a standing O when you fouled out.

Yeah, that was cool.

That was nice.

The crowd appreciated you. That was the breaking point for me with Boston.

That was it? You were like, I like these people.

Yeah, I hated Boston. Yeah.

When I was playing. No, we appreciated it.

Yeah. And that changed my entire, mindset of Boston. I love these people. These people are pretty cool.

Well, so Dominique, at one point, he's number 2 in MVP.

Yeah.

He's one of the 5 or 6 best players in the league for 5 years. And that's like his moment to either ascend or not ascend, right? And Bird's like just a whiff better than him.

Yeah.

Partly because Dominique, I wouldn't say, was the strongest defender, right? And you didn't have that— maybe if you're doing it now with a different team, you're throwing different guys at Bird.

We called it, he was an occasionally great defender.

Sporadic.

Yeah. I remember Fratello saying that occasionally, "Davineke is the greatest defender in the league." Right. "We just need that to be more." Well, but I think— But he has to score.

But he's a, well, that's the thing. He's carrying a lot offensively.

Yeah.

And he comes so, and that's the closest he ever comes, right?

Yeah.

And then you go back to the Lakers who end up taking Worthy over him.

Yeah.

And Worthy ends up in all these games and he's Big Game James and he has the big Game 7 in '88. And Dominique's on this other team where he has a much bigger burden. And if you flip them—

You don't know.

You don't know, but I—

Yeah, I mean, Tracy McGrady made that comment, like that if I was on the Lakers, I would've— and I said, no, you just don't know.

But think about Dominique on the Showtime Lakers though. That might've been like pretty spectacular.

It'd have been fun.

Yeah.

For sure.

But he also wouldn't have been able to guard Bird in the Finals. Like, I don't know what you would've done.

Yeah, but it'd been interesting. I love doing that. Like if such and such was here, would he had won as much or won less or won more?

Yeah.

I, I think it's hard to say.

Like Tom Chambers is another one.

Yes.

Who is really good. It's like if he had just been on the Lakers instead of Worthy, would we be talking about him reverentially as one of the best forwards in the—

It helps. I mean, Magic was again, the reason Magic, I struggle taking Magic out of the top 5 of all time.

He's 5th for me.

Yeah, because of, Not what he did, is his presence. He made, I mean, he resurrected Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's career.

And his love for basketball.

Yeah. He going from, the Lakers were losing games, not playing well. I don't know if you remember their first game was against the Clippers.

Yeah, yeah. And the hug game.

And the hug game.

Yeah.

I mean, it, I think that changed, Jabbar's second half of his life basketball-wise. And it, it was huge.

I forget who said this on my podcast. I'm gonna say it was Nick Wright, but I'm not positive. It was recent. Certain players love playing basketball 'cause they love playing basketball. And then certain players play 'cause they absolutely love winning and wanna win all the time.

Yeah.

And Magic was one of the few who was both at the same time.

Yeah.

Where he loved basketball, but he also really, really loved winning.

Yeah, I don't, you know, it's funny with Magic, going into my rookie year, They used to have that barnstorming tour in Michigan. And I was included in that. We would go and sell out like in Lansing. And after the game, and I'm not being honest, the gate, they would bring the gate in, the cash. And Charles Tucker would, you know, 10 for— It's like the Godfather. It'd be 10 for Magic, 5 for Isaiah, $1 for Doc. You know? And it was unbelievable.

Yeah.

But I remember going to Magic's house Yeah, we're sitting there and Magic was out. I wanna say he was playing Mark Aguirre, tennis, in the backyard. And I'm just sitting at the—

Isaiah was playing Mark Aguirre in tennis?

No, no, Magic was.

Magic was?

He was playing Mark, 'cause Magic had a tennis court in the back of his house.

Okay.

And we're just, you know, we're not watching the game. We're sitting in the house, you know, drinking Kool-Aid or whatever, you know, just hanging out. And all of a sudden, Magic busts the door open, throws a racket across the room, and just walks and leaves. And I'm like, what the, what is going on here? And he lost. He lost a tennis match.

David Spiering said he lost to Mark Aguirre.

Yeah, he lost a tennis match. And I wanna say wherever we were supposed to go that night, he didn't want to go. I was like, whoo, this guy doesn't like losing.

Well, wasn't that KG was like that, right? At the practices.

Oh yeah. KG, you know what's great about KG? He loved the competition in practice, but he also loved when the other team was into it. You know, that first practice we had, we lost, the starters lost. And the whole bus ride, you know, we were in Rome.

Yeah.

The whole bus ride, Eddie House, Tony House, they're giving it to him, just giving it to him. And Kev was like, "All right, yeah, okay." That next day, it was incredible. The energy that he brought to that practice. That was one of the days I told Tibbs, I was like, we're gonna be hard to beat.

Speaking of Tibbs, they just win the title the year after he gets fired.

Yeah, that's tough.

Do you take that as a positive or a negative if you're Tibbs? Because I got a great email a couple days ago from a listener who's like, Tibbs conditioned these guys in a lot of different ways. And like, he should get some credit for this thing.

Tibbs gets a lot of credit defensively. You know, they didn't vary from that since then. The system, Brendan O'Connor was my assistant coach.

Yeah.

In Boston and with the Clippers is who Mike Brown hired as his defensive coach this year. And that's, we are from the Dick Harder system of defense.

Yeah.

So he brought that to the Knicks. It was already kind of in. Brendan made a lot of changes, but You know, it was pretty cool. Having said that, Bill, you're a human. All right? And if I was fired and the team won the world championship the following year, I get, I would know deep down that I really helped that team.

But it wouldn't feel that way as you're watching it.

Yeah. And I think Tibbs was very happy for a lot of their guys.

Yeah.

Probably not all of 'em, but for a lot of their guys. But it also, it hurts you too. It's just human, man. We forget that we are all humans. And that would hurt, that would hurt a little bit for sure.

Where would you put Jalen Brunson against like Isaiah and some of the other—

Boy, that's tough.

Chris Paul, some of the other tough little guys.

We had that, well, I think, you know, and that nothing against Chris, I think you would just put him against all the guys who have won titles.

Yeah, yeah.

I think you would have to shorten that list.

That becomes a much shorter list. That's basically Isaiah, Tony Parker, and Gus Williams.

That's exactly right. Yeah, that's who you have to put him against, you know? Because he powered them. You say Gus Williams? Good call.

Yeah, Gus Williams. I apologized to him on my Monday podcast 'cause I forgot to mention him in the great small guards 'cause he always gets left out. And he was the best guy on the 1979 Sonics.

What about Kuz?

Kuz never won a title without Russell though.

Yeah, that's true. And Russell was the best player on the team. Yeah, good point.

'Cause he was close, close, close. Russell showed up. A lot easier when Russell was there.

Yeah, so I would start with that list first. And then you can go back to the other guards. 'Cause Brunson was so much different. Like all the small guards would've really struggled guarding Brunson. That, I mean, all of them. Now he would've struggled guarding them as well.

'Cause one of the things, so I did my thing yesterday and I had him ahead of Luka all time. I had a Laker fan who was like, that's insane. Like, Luka's 33 and 9 and 9. And I'm like, yeah, but the whole point of basketball is winning the title. Luka was in a similar situation in the '24 Finals, right? Against Boston. They're down 2-0 in Game 3. And then he has that whole thing where he kind of implodes and fouls out and then tells him to challenge it. And it's like—

But that's part of it, Bill. Like, do you have the makeup to win?

—That's what I was telling him. I was like—

That's the thing that he keep missing.

If you, so you're telling me if you switch Luka and Brunson, the Knicks still win the title with Luka? Or are you discounting all the other stuff Brunson did for that team? No, I would say no. The fact that he got better when it mattered all the time.

I would say no, they wouldn't. At least from what I've seen so far. And I love Luka.

Right. He's just not there yet.

Not yet. You know, and, and you know, health, conditioning. Could Luka sustain that? Type of intensity for that long. I don't know if he could or couldn't, but I know Bronson could.

And there's something about whatever Bronson did with that team that the guys around him were the best versions of themselves, which I think should count as a trait for basketball players.

Well, it's what Bill Russell did.

That's something KG was great at.

It's what Casey Jones told me that we were sitting around in my office one day and I asked, I said, so what was Bill Russell's secret? He always left room. That's what he said. It's like he knew for him to be great, he had to give everybody else enough room to be great as well.

Right.

What you, you keep hearing it so often by players, you know, I gotta play my game. I got, you know, they gotta let me play my game. Okay, we will. But that means he can't play his game if you're gonna be dribbling the ball between, or he can't play his game And so, well, I'll let you play your game, but we're gonna lose.

Right.

Or can you play your game and allow him to play his game and him to play his game and your team win? 'Cause if you can't do that, if you think the only way you can win is just with you with the ball in your hand every possession.

Yeah, but a lot of people think that.

But it hasn't happened. It's in the history of the game.

Right.

It's never happened. It has never happened in the history of basketball that a guy every time down just dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, either shot it or passed it. No one's ever won that way. So I mean, I love history.

Right. And even when Brunson was playing that way.

Yeah.

It was more because he kind of had to for like 9 straight minutes or they weren't gonna score.

Yeah. But they also moved the ball. They advanced the ball, they got it back to him. Right.

They had fast break points.

But down the stretch they went to that.

Yeah.

Other parts they went away from that. What they did a great job of, they knew when it was too much Brunson. And what Mike did so well this year is he instilled the ball movement, you know, playing through Towns, even without Towns, just moving the ball. Where in the past they hadn't done that.

Yeah.

It just stayed in Brunson's hand. It's almost like they had a little barometer. Uh-oh. It's too much. And they got away from it and then they would go back to it. So I thought that was the difference. The other thing with Mike Brown, he used the hell out of his bench.

Right.

He really did. I thought Mike Brown coached an amazing series.

Even his challenges were like that.

That, well, the Knicks have the best challenge system in NBA.

They, it swung games. Their challenges.

It's funny though, Bill, people think it's the coach. Head coach. The head coach has very little to do.

Some dude that he trusts completely on the bench.

And the Knicks, I think 2 or 3 years in a row, have led the NBA in challenges. It's a weapon.

Right.

And they're good at it. They're quick. You know, I remember we played them last year and I was like, do they have a quicker computer? I mean, what the hell's going on? But the guy actually also understood, you have to understand the rules. You have to understand the rules to be a good challenger. Was that a foul before the play? Why use your timeout now? You know, is this the right time? Even if you're right, they had one in game 1 or 2 where they were right, they knew it, but they didn't challenge because they already had one challenge that they won and they were like, no.

This isn't the perfect time for us to use the second one.

Yeah. If we use the second one now, we're done. And they end up using it in the third or fourth quarter. Where it came back to really help them. So yeah, they're really good at it. But what else Mike did was that bench, man.

What I like— Well, to do what he did without Towns, basically playing half the game and just figuring out how to patch together non-Towns minutes so that they could hang around. Impressive.

He had the courage. He had more courage than I did as a coach in bigger games. Like—

What do you mean?

Well, he was putting in guys that he hadn't played. You know, it's—

That was something you just wouldn't do?

Not, not unless the guy has proven it all year, you know? But you know, he puts in different guys at different, you know, he went away from Deuce. Deuce was great. He should have.

Deuce in the finals couldn't make a shot.

He couldn't make a shot. So then he goes to Sham.

I love that one.

Then he goes to Clarkson.

Yeah. Hook 40 outta nowhere.

Yeah. And then he goes to Clarkson. Yeah. Right. Clarkson hadn't played throughout the series.

Yeah.

Game 4, the comeback, he stays with Alvarado.

Yeah.

Stays with him. You know, now I did that. You remember we won the one game where I didn't bring in Paul or none of the Big Three. It was the big baby Nate Robinson.

Oh, in 2009. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And that group.

Yeah.

And we won a, I think it was a Finals game maybe, with that group on the floor. But I had played them all year.

Yeah.

So I did have more confidence in him. But he had gone away from Clarkson all year. You know, it's funny, he did put him in, in the NBA Cup game, if you remember.

Yeah.

He hadn't used him and Clarkson came in and played great. But even in that game, the Cup game against the Spurs, Tyler Kolic, he put him in and he played great. So I loved him, Mike. Kept trusting everybody. I thought that was really impressive.

It's funny, he got fired 3 times, 4 times?

Yeah.

Including recently in Sacramento.

It's called coaching. Right.

And then meanwhile all the other coaches like, Mike Brown's a really good coach.

Yeah.

And then finally he's in the right spot. Yeah, I've always thought he was a good coach. Now he's getting standing ovations in restaurants.

Yeah, now he can't, he'll never have to pay for another meal.

Did that happen to you after '08 when you're walking in restaurants?

Oh my God, in Boston, still does.

'Cause they had a clip. He walked into the Polo Lounge in New York.

Yeah.

Everybody just started standing up and doing this.

Yeah. But right after, I remember I was walking in, me and Sam Cassell, and it was a little uncomfortable, you know? Yeah. You don't walk in a restaurant and people stand up and try to pay. You had no chance of paying. I did like that. I'm known for being a little tight. So I absolutely loved that part.

Yeah. Yeah, 'cause the Celts were 22 years. This was 53. Yeah. But it had a little bit of the same stuff of like, you know, a lot of losing and a lot of like, I remember back when we were good and now we're not.

Yeah. And you know, Boston's fans now have gone through so much winning. You know, when I—

Now we get upset when we're bouncing back one.

Exactly. When I got to Boston, the Red Sox hadn't won in 1,000 years.

Yeah.

The Patriots hadn't won. The Bruins hadn't won. The Celtics hadn't won. Then all of a sudden we're all winning. And I used to always think back to, man, there's a kid that's 7 years old that thinks this is how it is.

Right. That's Sully from the Celtics.

Yeah.

Yeah. His sons, all they, they were born like right when Brady showed up.

They were, they were born at the perfect time in Boston. They think winning is like they're entitled to win.

Yeah. It was 13 titles.

Yeah.

That's pretty nuts. I don't know how, however many years that was. One thing on Brunson. So I was arguing with a Luka friend of mine and we started talking about Harden. He's like, you know, I know you don't like Harden. There's just no way Harden was worse than Brunson. Like, you have, Harden has to be above Brunson. I'm like, all right, you make the case. So he makes the case. He's like, he won the MVP, you know, his 36 points a game. We're, we're like arguing back and forth about it. And I was like, all right, I hear everything. Give me your best Harden year, 2018. He's like, 2018. I'm like, all right, take 2018 Harden and put him on this Knicks team. Do you think they win the title? And he goes, well, but that's— and I was like, that's your answer.

That's the answer.

That's your answer.

That's the answer.

That's why Brunson has to be ahead of Harden. That is the absolute answer. 'Cause you just said, you just already started stammering and making excuses.

Yeah, it's the answer that we should all go by.

Right.

You know, there's a lot of players, you know, James, is a phenomenal player.

He's in my top 50.

I still think the best part of his game, he doesn't like as much as I love.

The point guard play.

Yeah. I think he has as good a vision as anybody that I've seen next to Rondo and Chris.

Yeah.

And, but he could score too. And he liked to dribble, he liked to hold the ball. See, James doesn't give everybody else enough room to be great.

Yeah.

He is the only one that can be great on this team, you know, or—

He has to be the greatest.

Yeah. You know, I don't even think it's a jealousy thing. I really don't. I just think it's the way he plays.

Yeah.

And that's how he plays. You know, as he said, he's a system, you know. But that system to me is not the way to win, you know. I still go back, you look with James with us in Philly, the first half of the year, Yeah. He gave himself up to the team. He was playing unbelievable basketball and I thought there was nobody better than us.

Yeah.

And then it kind of changed. He wanted to go back. You could see it slowly, like he was uncomfortable in that role. One of the things I did like about that sucker though, he practiced every day. Like, it's funny how people don't look at him like that. James Harden, loves playing basketball.

And he's durable.

Oh, very. I told Ty Lue that, I said, listen, you're gonna need a guy that practices every day and he's gonna play 80 games. Like, there's something good about that. The bad part is, can you win with it? Sehr gut, sehr gut, sehr gut. Sehr gut?

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Streaming war noch nie so wow. The other thing I've been talking to people about is the 10-week playoff run and being durable and actually getting better as those 10 weeks goes along versus going the other way. I think Wemby's a decent example of this, but he's 22. He's on a career schedule.

But I think every team does that. And every player.

Well, you want, what you want is that grind is so hard.

Yeah.

And you gotta keep climbing the rungs and some guys can't do it. And even LeBron in 2011, like, by the time we got to the finals against Dallas, like he cratered.

Yeah. You know.

He had to learn how, how it went.

He had to learn how to win. He hadn't, he hadn't figured it out yet. I thought LeBron's, growth where he became one of the best all time was between '11 and '12.

Yeah, right.

And I thought—

And sadly you were in the, you were part of the shrapnel in 2012.

Yeah, yeah. But I remember we played them in a game, maybe a preseason game, and he was calling out the sets. And I remember turning to, I think it was Lawrence Frank. You were like, "Oh." And I was like, "Oh, this is different." Yeah. He didn't prepare. Before like that. He came out and played, but he was 21 over here. He's going, I was like, wow, now that's different. And when you start doing that, the other thing I thought Miami, you know, Kevin Garnett and them loved it. I showed a video before game 1, 2, it was before game 1 when we played, you know—

2012?

Yeah, they were the, you know, the big favorites. You know, we were old, And I showed a video of Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, and LeBron before the game doing their thing.

The handshake thing.

After the game they would do it. And I said, those 3 guys cannot beat us 12 guys. And until they figure out that they're gonna need those other 9 guys.

We got these guys.

They can't beat us. Yeah.

But you know what you weren't counting on? Being up about to go up 3-2 in Game 5 and all your guys talking so much shit to LeBron that he finally said, all right, fuck this.

Well, not all our guys. Paul. Yeah. Paul. Paul can't stop talking.

Is that the all-time bad trash talk story? Oh my God. Well, he probably changed the course of LeBron's career.

Yeah, actually I do think if we had won that series somehow, they were about to break him up because they had lost the year before. Chris Bosh was gone.

They at least trade Chris Bosh.

Yeah, somebody was gone.

But I feel that way about the 2016 Cavs. If they lose to Golden State, Kevin Love is outta there the next day.

It's amazing how a bounce or something.

Right.

You know, I always use Jeff Van Gundy, who I think is an excellent coach, all right? But Jeff Van Gundy was about to get fired with the Knicks. And Allen Houston takes a shot.

Oh, in '99, yeah.

And the ball bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce on the rim and goes that way. If the ball goes this way, Jeff Van Gundy's fired. The Bucks, if Kevin Durant's foot was back this much, they were gonna fire Bud.

Well, I think the 2014 Clippers is a good what-if team.

Yes.

'Cause you have Sterling happening.

Yeah.

Which is still one of the craziest—

That was nuts.

Things that teams ever had to deal with during the playoffs. And then, just Chris Paul, the safest bet on the planet, just having a complete meltdown in the last minute of Game 4 or Game 5, whatever. Yeah. Game 5.

Oh, Oklahoma City. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny, I thought, I don't know if we would've won it or not. 'Cause when you look back, and that's where some of the players get mad at me when I say, when you look back on our team, we didn't get along the way we were supposed to. To win. And so if that's, if you didn't have great chemistry, it's hard to win. But that year I thought we kind of had it.

Yeah.

Blake and Chris kind of, whatever their stuff was, and that happened before I got there, they kind of moved it to the side. There were so many mistakes. And Chris was literally—

Chris is the—

Second smartest—

Right.

Player that I coached. In my career. You know, I think Ronald's the smartest.

Who also never made mistakes. He had like the best assist turnover ratio.

Never turned the ball over. But we were supposed to foul out of the timeout. His guy got it. He didn't foul. He tried to trick the game. That was the one thing that me and him butt heads about all the time. You don't need to trick the game.

Oh, the—

Yeah. You remember he threw the ball and honestly he did get fouled.

Yeah.

But they didn't call it.

Right.

And, and so Oklahoma gets it and they come back and scores.

That was like when Brunson got fouled with 10 seconds left and they didn't call it.

They didn't call. They didn't call.

The ball went to Bridges.

Yeah, so.

That was almost a disaster.

That was, it was gonna be a disaster. So that's, you know, but man, that changed the fortune of the Clippers. That one game really, it did.

Yeah, you had that one. We've talked about this before on pods, but the ones that you almost could have won and two bad things happen are way worse than winning.

Well, I've had the—

Winning is here and the losses are, the seesaw is.

Yeah, the winning is always, If you win it all, there's nothing that's ever gonna beat that except for mentally, your losses hurt more. Right.

You, you think more about the losses than—

Yeah. Tibbs and I talk about 2010 way more than 2008. And that's just—

Okay. You're not being like, oh, remember that '08 Detroit series? That was great.

That's, that's what coaches— I mean, I had the, the 3-1 lead against Detroit where we were, we wasn't supposed to be in that series. If you ever go back and look at our, the Magic team.

Yeah.

And then Tracy McGrady stands up, this series is over.

Right.

You know, I didn't know he said that, but that's— he said it in the media.

Nobody should ever say that.

Never, never. And think about this, Rick Carlisle got fired because of that series.

Yeah.

Because Joe Dumars, I guess all year said, "You gotta play this kid named Tayshaun Prince." And he didn't play him all year. And then game 4, he put him in at the end of the game and he was phenomenal. By game 7, he was their go-to guy. I mean, it was crazy.

Yeah.

And I really believe that's what got Rick fired.

Jesus.

Yeah.

We were talking on a previous podcast about these teams that got the secret, which like the '04 Pistons is a good example.

Yeah.

This Knicks team, the '14 Spurs. Now there's other, like the '08 Celtics were so talented, it's almost like the talent is kind of—

Yeah, but it was more the play. We played together.

Right. So when do you know that it happens as a coach? Is there a moment there in the season or playoffs? 'Cause with the Knicks, they, it was the last 16 games.

But that's how it happens most of the time. Like we were not ready to win when the playoffs started.

Yeah.

People think we were. We, we went 7 games against the Hawks.

The first 2 teams.

Yeah. And the second series was Cleveland, who was probably the second best team in the East. Another 7-game series where we turned into a championship team. Was when we lost Game 2 in Detroit at home against Detroit.

Right. And then it flipped.

That's when, when we went to Detroit and won, that was the moment that we went from here to here.

And for the Knicks, it was Game 4 Atlanta.

Right. And what I try to tell people each round, as much as these players think they know, and coaches, all of us, you're good in the first round, your team is different. In the second round. You win that round, your team is different again in the third round because you keep growing, you keep trusting. Guys start either becoming more unselfish, they start seeing themselves with a chance to win. Each round your team gets better. Each round it does. And that's every team.

What's your theory for why home court advantage seemingly does not matter anymore?

Well, I don't have one. I really don't. I've thought about it. You know, the talent, the offense, 3-point shooting variance?

3—

Yeah, I think that's—

Travel?

I think the travel's easier.

What about DMs and Tinder and all— you don't have to go to clubs to meet girls anymore.

Yes, that helps. That helps. You know, as—

That'll help Dominique.

As I think Pat Riley said, it's not the act.

Yeah.

It's the chasing.

Right.

You know? So, yeah, I think all that. But I do think it's the 3-point shot that has changed.

'Cause the Knicks won 2 in Cleveland.

Yeah.

And then all 3 in San Antonio.

Well, look at last, last year, Indiana.

Another one. They didn't care where they played.

Yeah, there was no, but shooting, 3-point shooting has changed the, there's no lead that's safe anymore.

I have a Boston fan friend of mine says the biggest thing that's changed is they have all these rules that the fans can't be super mean to the other team anymore.

Oh no, they're still pretty mean.

'Cause they, you know, there's been teams where they would put people behind the visiting bench and they would just yell at the guys the whole game.

Behind the Barber in Detroit.

That era's kind of over too.

That era's gone.

Yeah, you don't feel like you're, oh my God, it's a little dangerous.

But you know what's funny? As a player, I love the road. I love playing on the road.

Well, those are always the best wins, right?

When you shut the crowd out. Nothing better. It's the most powerful, Posit— I wanted to beat the Lakers so bad in Game 5.

Yeah.

I wanted to win there so bad.

I just talked about this game in a podcast.

Yeah.

'Cause I was telling a story about how that Knicks Game 5 with Foster reminded me of Game 5 '08 with Foster where Ray Allen had 5 fouls in the second half.

Quick. Yeah.

And so did Paul Pierce.

Yeah.

And Ray Allen fouled out of the game. How many games did Ray Allen foul out of in his life?

Yeah, not many.

But that was one of those where I was like, ah, I just wish we had gotten a good whistle.

But we didn't play well either, I thought.

Yeah, we didn't get any whistles.

I thought that was the first game, the only game—

You can't get fined anymore. It was 20 years ago.

Yeah, that's true.

You didn't get any whistles.

I thought that was, yeah, that's, well, we didn't get any whistles in game 7. That's for a whole nother show. You know, the officiating changed from the first half to the second half. You know, in that 7th game in 2010.

When they allowed Pau Gasol to just shove everybody around?

Yeah, it went from, They wasn't calling anything to, I think it was 17 to 5.

But that's a good example of the little margins, right? So why did we ultimately, I'm gonna say we like I was playing.

Well, it's a we.

Why do we lose that game? It was 'cause Rasheed Wallace had to play 35 minutes.

Yeah, yeah.

And because Perkins is out and that tilted it just enough.

Enough.

You didn't have, you were 10 men short.

And Kevin was more like Wimby then in the fact that Yeah, Wimby. Kevin was exhausted.

He had 3 rebounds in that game.

Yeah, Kevin's, once he got back from injury, he never could practice and work the way he worked. And fatigue was a major factor with KG.

And that was Gasol was feasting.

Yeah, and that's where Gasol, we let him out of the, we owned him and we let him out of the bag.

Well, that's the thing with these, when you talk about the margins, 'cause a great one was 2016 Game 7. Warriors-Cavs, Bo gets out, Barnes is unplayable.

Yeah.

All of a sudden Festus Azile is out there with 6 minutes left.

Yeah.

LeBron targets him, gets 6 points out of him.

Yeah.

And that swings the game, right?

Yeah.

And it's like, it's a little thing, but it's not.

It's, yeah, it's a little thing, but it's a huge thing. And it's, I always find that interesting. Like LeBron had figured out how to win now, you know?

Yeah.

He won in Miami. He had gone through those each rounds. And so now he knew how to win. He'd become a winner.

It's interesting though, because I felt like he was, I mean, he's easily one of the 4 or 5 smartest players of this century.

Yeah.

Right? And then he's probably the best athlete of this century.

Yeah.

But something had to like settle in with him. It was almost like a, like a cake.

Yeah. But he had to like stay in the oven for a while.

He did. He had to settle.

He had to figure out how to win. People—

And the pressure, I think he was putting on himself.

Like, figure out how to win. How do you know how to?

Right.

You know, if you haven't won. So it, it—

You don't think he learned from Ricky Davis and Larry Hughes?

No, some people it's natural. You know, Magic was a winner coming in the pros.

Yeah.

He won a national title, the biggest game in, I think the biggest college game in the history of college basketball. Has to be. And I think it still is.

Yeah.

You know, I know where I was at when Larry Bird and Magic played. I, I remember that game.

Would you see that stat that Brunson was the 15th guy to win high school, college, and NBA?

Yeah. I didn't see that stat. Not nothing. No, that's a lot.

You know who else is on there? Kareem, Russell, and Magic.

Yeah, I was gonna say that's a lot. Like, Bill, that's people—

That has to matter.

It matters more than so many other things. This guy just keeps winning. He may not be done.

Well, they probably, that team probably has 2 years left, but now they're gonna deal with, the Pat Riley disease of more.

Yeah.

I gave up stuff. Now I'm not as excited to give up stuff. I don't really like shooting 8 shots a game anymore.

I'd like to shoot 12. Michael called it the trophy tour. You're gonna have to deal with all the trophy tour guys. And I remember asking, what are you talking about? He said, oh no, these guys, they're carrying the trophy to their hometowns. They're having parades for them. They're gonna come back. They're gonna want more.

You're like, oh, trophy tour. I like that.

Yeah, he called it the trophy tour.

Did you see the Jim Dolan speech? No. About— I gotta send it to you after you reply. Defense safety? No, he— this Brunson's podcast, they put the speech on their feed. He gave a 15-minute speech to the team before the playoffs. Wow. Sat in front of them. I couldn't believe it. It's like a great speech. It's like a sports movie speech. I have to see this. Gives them this whole speech about, I think this team is going to win the title. But it's only going to happen if you guys dedicate this. You're going to have to put the team above yourself. It's like he— it was kind of great. He's like, you're going to have to tell— at one point he goes, I'm going to give your wife or your significant other championship rings if we win this, because they're going to have to sacrifice too. This has to be all you think about. Wow. This is going to be the hardest thing in your life. That's the Pat Riley speech. Well, then he goes, if we win, what this will mean in New York City I can't even explain to you what's gonna happen to everybody in this room if it— You gotta watch it.

I was like, I didn't know you had this in you, Jason.

Yeah, he's doing it. Jim, listen, they've done everything right. Like Leon, man, we talked about this 2 podcasts ago about—

Leon West, yeah.

Yeah, but anybody, and I remember I said anybody can get the star. I can make a trade, I can take over a team tomorrow and find a way of getting the star. But can you put the right people around them? And god darn, every decision they made came up gold. It came up gold.

Would you, I talked about this before, but would you, do you think the job of being a GM with relationships and knowing kids who turn into adults that you recruit and stuff, that feels like more of an advantage than, like West New Town's when he was 15. Yeah. We're trying to get him to, like, he's known that guy forever. So he's like, oh, his contract's too expensive.

Absolutely.

No, no, he's a good kid. We gotta get him in. Should more owners be looking at people who were like agents?

Or agents or even players who wanna be front office people.

Yeah.

You know.

Like, could Chris Paul do this?

I don't know if he has the relationships.

Right.

You know, but one thing Chris does, You know, he knows players. I guess Jamal Crawford knows everybody in the league, you know?

Right.

He's voted teammate of the year every year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you wanted one guy to get— and I'm joking. DeAndre Jordan knows single league, every single person in the league. It's funny, when you played on the Olympic team, Coach K calls me, he's like, "Hey, this guy's the Pied Piper." I have never seen a guy that everyone wants to be with. And, you know—

Have we ever talked about this? 'Cause when I had the— well, I still have the Clippers tickets. But when he didn't play, he wasn't playing. He was like a scrub on the Clippers. But before and after the games, he knew everybody on the other teams. And it was like handshakes, hugs. And I would say to my wife, like, I don't know what the deal is with this backup center. He knows everybody in the league.

When I got him, and you know, when I came and we had the big talk and, For him, you know, one of my favorite player-coach stories of all time, I gave him that long list of like, you know, he told me he wanted to score more.

Yeah.

And that's why he didn't play well the year before, he was pouting. You know, it was my first year there, it was my first meeting with DJ. Literally my first meeting, we're at Nobu.

Yeah.

And I was like, so Vinny Del Negro told you, that you're gonna score more. He said, no, he told me to work on my offense. And then I did that and I didn't get the ball. I said, I'm gonna have you work on your offense too, but I'm gonna guarantee you one thing. And he says, what's that? I will never call a play for you. Never. And he's looking at me, this is our first meeting.

Yeah.

I said, but if you get every rebound, you become, I'm gonna make you the defensive captain. I gave him a list.

Yeah.

All defense. You know, All-Star team.

Rebounding title.

Rebounding title. All these lists. And then NBA champion. And it's an emotional one. He had checked them all off. And then when he won the title with the Denver Nuggets.

Right.

I'm— Bill, 10 minutes after the game, I get a bing on my phone. It's a picture with him and the trophy. And he had the note and it said, "Checked." Wow. How awesome is that? Yeah, that was DeAndre. That was pretty cool.

We took JR Giddens over him.

Yeah, don't get me started with that one. I'm gonna give you the— One thing I loved about Danny, and we would not— Me and Danny loved— We had a great relationship. But my son, Jeremiah—

Yeah.

That played with some of these guys now.

Oh, I think you told me this story. Yeah, and he's texting. He knew a little.

During the draft. Yeah, he's like, "We need you." During that draft, J.R. Giddey, he's like, "I'm telling you, I've played with him." And Danny loved him. Danny loved him.

Well, Danny's had a pretty high batting average.

Yeah, that's why. Listen, I knew what Danny said. Let him do it. Whatever. He's right most of the time.

Well, you know what's funny now? They have the second pick and people like Peterson said he wasn't gonna work out for them.

Yeah.

And it's, nobody's gonna know who Utah, anyone who's like, I know what Utah's gonna do, it's like, good luck. Well, Lawrence Frank— I don't think people who work for Utah knows what Danny's gonna do.

Lawrence Frank was over game 1 or game 2, I had Larry over and Lawrence Frank. And it's funny, Larry really enjoyed Lawrence Frank 'cause Lawrence, you know, was an active—

Right, just asking questions.

And he's asking, he's just buzzing him with questions. And we started talking about Danny and we were laughing like, No one knows what Danny is up to. No one. And it's the truth.

I think they're gonna take Kambuza only because of 25 years of watching how Danny thinks about this stuff.

Yeah.

I just think he's gonna be like, "You know what? That guy's just really good." Danny knows.

"Taking that guy." I will say this about Danny. He knows already.

Yeah.

I can guarantee you that.

Yeah, he's like walking into a bar and seeing a girl.

It's just immediately— Yeah, now he's trying to sell— other franchises on someone else, you know, what he does. So.

Right. Do, have you looked at the draft at all or no?

Not much. Not yet. No.

You're like a retired guy now.

Yeah. It's, I'm—

Playing golf.

Golfing.

Trying to build your endurance up on, on the course.

Terrible golf, but I enjoy it, you know.

Well, we gotta talk about Giannis trades.

Yeah.

So when you have a trade hanging over a team like that.

Yeah.

And it's not just Giannis and the Bucks, it's other stuff, but And then the way stuff's reported now and talked about.

Yeah.

And how do you navigate that as a coach or you don't?

No, you do. I probably underestimated the damage that it was doing to our team.

Yeah.

Because, you know, first of all, a lot of the reports, they were just not accurate.

Yeah.

And unfortunately it doesn't matter if they're accurate or not. It's out there.

Because the reports are poor and there's 6 hours of shelf life out of it.

You know, as Al Michaels says, some of these guys, they report on the news and then they then do reports on the news that they created. You know?

Right.

And so it just—

It's like a double dip. It's like you go back to the buffet table.

Yeah. It takes a life of its own because I knew what Giannis was telling me.

Yeah.

And so some of this stuff just wasn't right, wasn't true. And, but that doesn't mean the agents wasn't telling someone else something else. You know, it didn't matter. It did damage. Because if you're a coach, I'm trying to get Bill Simmons to play his role. You're like, play my role? Why am I gonna play my role? Our best player doesn't even want to be here.

Yeah.

You know? And, and that is the damage it does. Giannis, really never said to the players that he wanted to leave. And he never probably said he wanted to stay. You know? And so—

So it's just like everything is uneasy.

Yeah. But he did tell 'em once, "Guys, I'm here. I'm here." He told me that, you know, several times. "Coach, I'm going nowhere." Told me long before the trade deadline, before All-Star break. "Coach, I'm going nowhere.

I don't want to go anywhere." So what am I trading for if I'm getting him? Because I don't know if you're aware, but I've heard. The Boston Celtics are one of the possible teams.

Yeah, I've heard. I've heard. Well, you're getting a rejuvenated, healthy Giannis.

Is it a healthy or hopefully healthy?

No, he's healthy. And I also think this'll be his first time in 4 years not having Europe basketball. You know, so Giannis and I had a conversation, I wanna say a month before the season ended. And you know, you remember the whole, should you come back? And I was honest. I said, Giannis, here's my opinion. All right, you shouldn't come back. You know, the season's over.

Yeah.

You need to sit. I said, but you should look at this as a great opportunity. You can start working out now. You can bring in your guy that you work with and you can start now for next year. There's no European basketball. You get a whole year to really work on your skill.

It's like the Rocky III, Eye of the Tiger year.

Yeah, yeah. And he started doing it. Start in the gym. He was doing it. He was, you know, before I left, he was already into his workouts, you know? So I think they're gonna get that. I think it'll be good for him probably, you know, just to get all this stuff out off of him. He can focus on basketball. And playing.

But how does it make sense? And I've already said on the record, I kind of hope the Celtics don't trade for him because I think it's risky. 'Cause he, this will be his 14th year in the league. The history of big men as they get older.

Well, he's not a typical big man.

He's had it. I know, but I'm just going by history. I don't think it's, it's not like getting KG in 2008.

Yeah. And also with any trade you risk chemistry.

Right.

You don't, even if you think your chemistry is not great now, you risk making it way better. You also risk making it worse.

We've seen this happen in the NBA over and over again.

Over and over again. Let me read off my—

But for him, like, I don't understand why he would want to go to, Miami's the one I don't, I can't figure out unless they have other moves coming that I don't know. 'Cause it's like, all right, it's him and Bam, but you just traded everybody else. Like, where are you going?

And you would've traded your closer. 'Cause Tyler Herro's a closer.

Right.

You know, say what you want about him, but he's a straight up player.

So why would I want to go laterally? I would just rather stay in Milwaukee at this point.

That's where he's trusting their front office that they have the ability to add more pieces. You know, that's, those are the talks we're not in, you know.

After the last two rounds of basketball we watched, like you, you need like 7, 8 dudes.

You need a lot of guys.

It can't just be you and Bam Adebayo. And it can't be you and Jason Tatum.

Yeah, well, the Celtics still have a lot of players.

No, I know, but I'm just—

There's a much safer thing for him. The only thing from the Celtics' point of view is you are shortening your window, you know, because Giannis is older and Brown is younger.

Well, Giannis is older with more miles on him too.

But you also may be, after that window, giving yourself a chance to have another window with Jayson Tatum. Right. You know what I mean? So it depends on how the front offices look at it.

What would you do if you were Boston?

Ooh, that's a tough one. You know, I don't ever say it because I don't know.

'Cause you traded for KG, you had a 5-year window with KG, right?

Yeah, yeah.

You knew it was like, I have him, I have Pierce, we have Ray.

Yeah.

This is 4 to 5 years.

Yeah, I remember we thought when we did it, we thought we had a 3 to 4-year window with age. And, but I mean, obviously KG got hurt. We didn't know that was gonna happen. That's why you can't take anything for granted. I said it the other day. You remember when Oklahoma City, KD, James Harden, Ibaka—

I went nuts when this happened. They thought their window was limitless.

Yeah, Mike Breen. I remember Mike Breen say, "Well, you know, they lost this series to Miami, but they're gonna be back here many times." They never made it back. Assuming—

'86 Rockets.

Yeah. You can never—

'95 Magic.

There's no assumptions. There's no— this league, winning is brutally hard. You have to play well, you have to act right, you have to get along, you need luck, you need everything to win a title. And if you don't get everything, you're not going to win.

So you think you get Giannis, these next 2 years would be the years you,— you have to cash in on this.

Yeah, he's gotta be, he's so motivated. You know, it's not like he's not always, but he's just motivated. He wants to, he wants to win another title. Giannis wants to win. Like, it, it's interesting. We were just talking about it. He doesn't talk a lot about his play.

Yeah.

He talks about winning. And Giannis wants to win.

I don't know what the right team is for him. I don't either. To actually win a title.

You have to have a closer with him.

And that's what— Which Boston would have.

That's what the Tatum, that's why the Tatum thing makes more sense because you, a two-man game with Giannis and Tatum, good luck.

The only thing I, I said on the pod that I guess was a reporting, but I know I'm right, is that the Celtics made an offer. I don't know if Jaylen Brown was in it.

Yeah.

I assume he has to be in it.

Yeah. See, I don't know how you get that.

I don't know. I don't either. But I don't know how you would make an offer without him in it.

The problem with our league now is when I first started coaching, you could have all these conversations and the player would never know. Never know.

Now the player always knows.

They know it 10 minutes after the conversation.

'Cause this is what happened with KD in Brooklyn.

Yeah.

With Jaylen Brown.

Yeah. Once—

When he heard about that.

Once the news happens, there's damage. You know, it's really tough for teams. You should have conversations.

Yeah.

You should always try, listen to everything. Doesn't mean you're doing it. And my guess is it wasn't the Celtics calling, it was probably Milwaukee calling Boston.

Or they're trying to figure out, they're talking basic vague parameters.

Yes.

And then Milwaukee goes, well, if we got Jaylen Brown, could we spin him?

Yeah.

Now you talk to another team and now—

Yeah. Everyone says there's gonna be 3 teams whenever this—

It has to be.

If it does happen, It'll be 3 teams. It's just, you know, with the Kobe—

It could be the Clippers. Jalen could be coming to LA.

I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if the Clippers were involved in this at all. With the financial ability of Steve Ballmer and that organization.

And they have some cap space and they have the 5th pick.

They also will have 80 degrees and no humidity and they have an ocean. People like that.

Right.

They, players like that. You know, before it was all Lakers, you know, when—

It was a little like the Nets-Nicks situation.

Yeah. And, but now, you know, that's one of the things I would say if I have a lot of pride about things, which I never do 'cause I don't ever think that in those terms. But that's one of 'em. Like—

No, you should take pride in that.

We wanted to, when I took that Clipper job, I remember saying, I said in the press conference, We're gonna make this a destination. We're gonna make the Clippers a place that people want to come to. Now, I didn't know at the time with Donald Sterling as the owner, that was a pie in the sky thought when you think about it. But even Donald paid, you know, for players.

Right.

But then when Bomber came organizationally, like everything's first class, they do everything right. I mean, it's, they, they do it the right way.

Yeah. When I got my tickets in '04, I just got it for the other teams, which is why most of the people were there. Right?

Yeah. Still do, unfortunately.

And then, and it was really kind of fun to go to the games. They were so dysfunctional year after year after year. And then, you know, it was little baby steps. They draft Blake, he finally gets there. The Chris Paul thing falls outta the sky and all of a sudden it starts to look like a real team.

You know, Bat, so when I was traded to the Clippers, As a player.

Yeah, in the '90s.

My wife, Chris Rivers, goes to the first game, and she's in the stands crying. True story. She's sitting next to Gloria Shuler. That was Mike Shuler's wife.

Yeah.

And Gloria is consoling her and like, "What's wrong, baby?" "My son is—" And she says, "My husband is no longer in the NBA." and he doesn't know it.

Oh my God.

And she was like saying, "No baby, that's not true.

That's not true." No, it is an NBA team.

Yeah, and she kept saying, "No, it's not." Now way back then, if you remember at the Clip joint, that thing was a mess. It was a mess.

I never went there 'cause I had never been in LA until the 2000s. I heard it was the, what was it, the Sports Arena or whatever?

The Sports Arena was a mess. It was a mess. They had comedians doing shows after the game to keep people. I mean, you could literally check yourself in. There was no one there. It was crazy.

It's one of the only good sports documentary ideas left that I don't think Ballmer will ever let happen. Like the actual history of the Clippers and what the—

Well, if I'm Ballmer, I would, because the ending is a glorious story. And he was the white knight.

I hope it's glorious. We don't know how the Aspiration scandal is gonna come out.

At worst, it's still—

Who knows?

At worst, he's still gonna be there.

True.

And he's still gonna keep doing things well. And so I wouldn't worry about it.

So you, if you're the Clippers, you would rather have a star than the 5th pick?

Oof. Yeah, I think—

If you have Kawhi and Garland and you have a really good front office.

Yeah, I think right now, here's my belief, and a lot of front offices don't believe this, half and half. If you legitimately, can look yourself in the eye and say, if we do this move, we have a chance to win, you should go for it. I think so many franchises have waited. No, man. No, this is not the— If this is the time, you gotta cash it in.

Yeah.

But you gotta have a very honest, like, is it or isn't it? 'Cause a lot of teams think they do it and they— What did they do? You know, and I don't, I remember last—

That's how I do. Oh, good.

Last year Orlando traded for Bane and they said, now we have a chance. And I was like, what? No, you don't. You're better. It's a hell of a trade. It's a good trade, but you're not ready to win yet.

That's how I always feel about these trades.

Yeah.

If I'm doing it, I better at least have a chance.

Yeah, but you have to be honest enough to evaluate the league and what you have for sure.

Like Celtics, Ray Allen trade, then the KG trade. You basically trade all your assets, but now I have, now I'm the best team in the East. Yeah.

Of course I'm gonna do that. Yeah. We knew immediately we had a shot. We knew.

Right.

We knew we had to beat Detroit, Cleveland, and the Lakers.

Right.

You know, in whatever order, we knew that had to happen. We knew the Lakers—

With the Bridges trade, which I guess I'll take the loss on this one, but the thing I didn't like about it was like, this is it. This is your move. Like now you have no more moves.

But he is also—

But it turned out they had an extra move 'cause the Towns trade became the extra move. I thought after Bridges, I didn't think—

It's funny, everyone made the big deal about the Bridges trade. 5 picks is a lot.

Well, it was anything they could've given up for Giannis.

It still didn't constrict him. You know, they went out and got Towns. It didn't stop them. And I don't know if there's a better role player for your basketball team than Bridges. He's willing to take, 4 shots, 15 shots, 6 shots. Every game he shows up. He doesn't know.

And by the way, he plays basketball. He's out there. He doesn't miss games.

Yeah, he plays every night and he's still one of their better defenders every single night.

Yeah.

He's a pretty important guy to have on your team.

If you were Orlando, would you think about Paolo for Giannis?

I don't know, man. That's—

Does that put you in the title convo?

Yeah, I would do it.— if I'm Orlando, if I thought that put us over the hump or if I thought—

I got Giannis, I have Franz, I have Bain, I have Suggs, I have Black.

I don't know if you have enough shooting. You still—

Maybe in free agency I can get somebody.

Yeah, if you can get enough shooting, you know, I don't know what the other moves, like I keep saying it, I can go get a Giannis, right? But does that put us over the top? And do we know how to make the rest of the moves to win? Teams do it over every year, Bill. Every year we see it. Teams go and get a star.

How about Houston? I have VanVleet coming back. I have to give up Shengun in the trade, I'm guessing.

Yeah.

And maybe Jabari Smith too.

Yeah.

And I might have to take a contract back.

No, I don't know if that works.

I don't think it works either. Yeah, I don't think that works. I don't think I'm better than San Antonio or OKC either way.

You know, and then they—

I mean, San Antonio's the interesting one, but I don't think they would do it.

They probably wouldn't do it. Oklahoma could as well. Oklahoma has— Not their star. Oklahoma could do any trade they wanted to.

Right.

I mean, what they have, what Sam has done is absolutely amazing.

They have 12 and 17 in this draft.

Yeah. Like, they're mad at draft picks.

Yeah.

Like, oh my God, what are we gonna do with all this stuff?

He's in the first situation ever where he is like, I think I'd rather have the 8th pick than the 12th pick.

Yeah.

I'm just gonna go trade for it. Hey Atlanta, here's 7 picks for, to move up 4 spots.

There's no doubt that he's gonna do a 2-for-1. He has to. You know, he almost, Has to.

Well, there's a center in this draft who I like, the Michigan kid, Mera.

Yeah, he's solid, but I haven't watched him enough.

7'3".

Yeah, you've watched him more than me.

Well, he's 7'3".

Yeah.

He's a good passer. And I'm through the Wemby prism now.

Yeah.

I need size. Where am I getting size?

Yeah, Wemby is, everybody in the West.

You have to think about it.

You have to think about it. You know? You know, it's funny, the Knicks, they didn't just— where I was way wrong. There's no way I thought Towns would or could guard Wemby. And he did an amazing job.

And he didn't really have dumb fouls until—

No, no.

Near the end of the finals.

You know what made it interesting? Statistically going into the series, you know who's the best defender on Wemby plus minus?

Who?

OG. In the, I think in the league he had the highest plus-minus guard rating.

Did you know he was that good?

No, no. I knew he was a great defender. Great, like elite. I never thought he'd be able to shoot and make shots and make plays the way he does. And I never knew he had the IQ. He has an incredibly high basketball instinctive IQ.

I love how he— I never saw that. There's gotta— there's no way to have a stat for this, but like, do you do the most positive things that you're capable of doing and the least negative things?

Yeah.

Something about like, you know yourself the best out of anyone. Like you always have these guys who are like, oh, I bet I can do it. And they can't. He never does anything he can't do.

Yeah. The whole league have— has irrational confidence. Right. Every player has irrational confidence. That's what makes them good. But if you wanna be a successful coach, I always tell young coaches, if you can get all 12 of your guys to know exactly who they are, now you're never gonna do that, but if you can do that, you will never lose. You will never lose.

You talk to coaches all the time.

All the time.

You're like the fucking Yoda of coaching.

I do talk a lot.

You talk to all of them. What is their biggest thing that they're worried about now? Like just with basketball in 2026?

That's a good, you know, no one's ever asked that question to me. That's a great question.

Thank you.

I think a lot of 'em are concerned with how many the outside forces touching their players. There's just too many people.

You mean like shooting coach, manager, agent?

Even inside. Like you got 10 skill development guys who I love. You have, The medical team now is bigger than your coaching staff. There's just so many voices. And how do you manage those voices? Like culture is not just the players. If your culture in the training room or with your skill development aren't all locked in on the same thing, you're not winning.

Right.

You know, 15 years ago I had to worry about 4 coaches. And 2 trainers.

Of course, you might add 2.

Yeah, 2 or 3 coaches and 2 trainers. It was easy to kind of circle the wagons and have a great culture. Now you got, you got, you know, a lot of people.

How many coaches do we actually need in all seriousness? 'Cause like I was watching, they were showing the '76 Finals.

Yeah.

And the Celtics had Tom Heinsohn as the head coach and John Killaley as his assistant. And that was it.

Yeah.

It was just the two of them. And if both of them got thrown out, like Dave Cowens had to become the coach.

Yeah, we had Dick Harder and Jeff Engundy.

It sounds great.

Yeah.

Isn't that easier?

And it was so cool because I remember I hurt my knee and I needed a coach to come rebound for me. I didn't have a skill development guy. I do, I love the skill development guys. I think they really help players.

Yeah.

I would call Jeff Engundy and that's, You know, it was funny. Jeff would come and just, Jeff was the greatest freaking guy.

Yeah.

'Cause he shut his mouth and he just rebounded for me. He could tell, like I was just shooting, shooting. And if I missed, he'd run to get it and throw it back. Wouldn't say a word. Just, just bag balls for you and shot. And you know, it wasn't until middle of that workout one night, we were just sitting there talking afterwards and he said his age. And I said, wait a minute, I'm older than you? What? You know, I didn't even know that. You know, Jeff Bezos.

Jesus.

Isn't that crazy? Yeah.

So they worry about outside forces.

Yeah.

How about wear and tear of the schedule?

Not as much as you think.

Yeah.

I think the coaches worry about that far less than front office and medical teams do. And then I think they do worry about, it's harder to get players to buy in now.

'Cause of the two-ways?

No, because of all the other stuff. You know, everyone has their own brand now. You know, everyone.

Right.

You know, guys who you're like, why do you have, why do you have a person?

Yeah.

You know, why do you have a publicist? What do you need a publicist for?

Yeah. They all have them. You're an 11th man.

Yeah, they all have 'em. They're hawking, selling something, creating something. I mean, this is real business and money for these guys. So I think that's what they're more concerned by than anything else.

Hmm. I have something that you didn't know about. You know what that is?

No. Oh my gosh. This is awesome. Where did you get this from?

After the 2007 draft.

Yeah.

Somebody at ESPN grabbed this for me and sent me an email. And said, "Hey, I grabbed the envelope. Do you want it?" And I was like, "Fuck yeah, I'll take it." Not realizing—

What?

How about that?

Yeah, this won a title for me.

That won you a title?

This won me a title. I will say that was the lowest our office has ever been. I mean, we—

It was the lowest I think I've ever been as a sports fan.

We did everything to get the best pick. I mean, I wish I could have some of those games back that, That, I mean—

You're just isoing for Gerald Green in March, mid-March.

I would look up in the stands some nights and, you know, let's say Gerald's having a night or somebody, and Danny's looking at me like, what the fuck?

Right.

I take him out. You know?

I remember Rondo was almost like too good to play at those things.

Yeah. Yeah. Rondo. I mean, it was tough.

Yeah. So that one comes up, that's it.

That was, yeah, that was a rough night.

'Cause think about it, if we got, Forgot one and you took Oden.

Oh.

You'd probably be doing TV the last 15 years. Danny swears. Danny swears he would take a Durant.

Yeah, and I don't know if that's true.

I think that's true.

But Danny kept things so close, I wouldn't have known until late anyway.

Well, the story I always heard was that the Celtics doctor, they had a great doctor back then.

Dr. McKeehan.

Yeah.

The best.

That he saw the Oden stuff and he was like—

He actually gave a couple flags. The only one that I always, you know, Dr. McKeehan and I have become Best friends, we golf. And the only thing I still kill him on, Brandon Roy. Like, we could have had him. And he said, "Guys, no." He's got a—

He wasn't wrong. He was like 4 years.

He's got a 5-year window.

Yeah.

You know, he said—

But it was a really good 5 years.

Yeah. And I always say, "I would've taken those 5 years." Right. But he was, it was amazing how correct. He said, "That guy's gonna play 4 or 5 years and then his career's gonna go the other way." I mean, it was like to the year. It was unbelievable. Jesus.

Yeah. So what's your final Giannis prediction before we go?

I think he gets moved.

You think he gets moved?

Yeah.

East Coast or West Coast?

I don't, you know, I think teams make a mistake when they worry about that. Get the best deal.

Okay. But I'm saying, would you predict the Eastern Conference or Western Conference?

I'm gonna go West.

You're going West?

No, I'm sorry. I'm gonna go East.

You're going East? I'm gonna go East.

Yeah.

Do you think Giannis will be in the NBA Finals again?

Yes. If he goes to the right place.

Do you think Thanasis will be in the NBA Finals again?

He'll be there. You know, he'll be there for sure. He won't be on the team.

What was Thanasis's best pickup basketball strength?

Energy. One, one thing I tell you, like the dude, there were days where he, he actually was useful because, you know, you had—

He would ramp it up.

Yeah. He was playing hard. Like, The masses, no one wanted to practice against him.

Yeah, I was gonna say, was he the guy in the gym that everybody was getting mad at?

Oh yeah.

As he was trying to—

Yeah, yeah. You know who was that for me? It was Leon Wood, the ref.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah. I made the All-Star team that year and I swear to gosh, it's because of Leon Wood. I hated him. I would, back then you're playing 42 minutes and back then you practiced every day.

Right.

And you scrimmaged a lot. And you know, I just played 42 minutes guarding DJ, And the next day we're practicing and Leon Wood is picking me up full court. You know, there was days I wanted to just punch him.

But that's probably why it hurts when you hit a 5-wood now.

Yeah, no doubt. Hurts when I've been down.

You played probably 80 games that dude Leon Wood had to you.

It's funny. The last game that Leon did, I say, "Hey Leon, you move just like me.

We did too much." Who'd you think, by the way, I had, before we go, I had, You just coached a team. Questions, random ones. Who did you think the best ref in the league was?

You mean in the, in right now?

Right now. The best ref this season that you saw.

I thought Scott Foster.

Scott Foster? Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I thought, I think he has really become a, it's, you know what I've learned? It's not just his refereeing. Where, where Scott has improved is his people skills. And You know, there's a couple other ones that I really like.

Any young ones?

Josh Tibben, I think, has a good demeanor overall. Takes it very seriously. I love— I learned a little bit during COVID I got a chance to golf with some of the refs.

Oh, interesting.

And it's interesting. I have found this thing Some of these guys care so much. They want to be like really good at their jobs. And those are the guys I like. Then there's another group of guys that like, "Why are you so upset? It's just a game." You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And so give me that first group because it hurts them. Like they know when they make a mistake and it hurts them just like you. Those are the refs you want.

Scott Foster.

Yeah, I think he's really, he's a solid NBA ref.

What coach impressed you the most that you went against?

Oh, that's a great, boy, you good questions, man.

But I forgot to ask you these the last time you were on.

Yeah.

Was there one where you're like, man, that guy's got fucking everything going here?

Well, I mean, it's tough. Oklahoma was so good.

Yeah.

But I still think he's really good.

Yeah.

I, I think he—

Thangnot.

Yeah, I, I think he's, He's really, Mark, like he does, he makes the right plays, he subs the right guys in. Though I thought in the last series with guys injured, you know, it was tougher for him.

Yeah.

I was impressed with Mike Brown this year. You know, I've played against him, coached against him in 2 Eastern, you know, I beat him twice. When he had LeBron.

Yeah.

And I think his growth has, he's a different coach from when he was back then. There's no, like, he's different. I love, and I'm gonna come up, we gotta come up with a list. I loved, there's certain coaches you better be ready.

Right.

And then there's other coaches I felt like, ah, you know.

Yeah, this is, this will be easy.

I know what they're doing.

Yeah.

There's certain, There are coaches that I felt, 'cause I thought one of the things I did well throughout my career was ATLs. You know, we call it timeout, we were scoring.

Yeah.

I had a very, very, very prominent coach that told me he lost, he admitted this, he lost the game to me because they had a timeout, we didn't, and he didn't use it because he didn't want me to be able to draw up a play. Oh. And he said it was so stupid that he didn't.

Yeah.

And there's coaches that you feel the same about. Like, yeah, I call a timeout, they're gonna get to draw up a play too. And he's killing us right now.

Right.

Outta timeouts. So there's, you know, that goes both ways with coaches.

Stevens was the best I ever saw at that.

Brad was great outta timeouts.

I don't know. He must have had like some database of all these crazy plays that he would have.

Yeah, you would be amazed at coaches. Like, Ty Lue has every ATO that I've ever drawn up.

Really?

Yeah, the entire time he was my assistant.

Just like in a Google Doc or something?

No, he would draw it up and keep it. He had a book. He would draw 'em all up and he would keep 'em. And they beat us in Philly one game with one of my plays and it incensed me. It just pissed me off so bad. They literally ran a play that we—

It's a violation.

Yeah. And it was flawless. And you know, we talked about it afterwards. He was laughing. I said, "Shh." Like, and Tibs did that a lot. You know, we run all, you know, 'cause we all steal from each other. Nobody's a genius in this. We all think we are. No one's, you, I could watch a game. I watch a game now. Oh wow, that's good. I could tweet this. You know, that's how coaches watch games. It's, it's pretty cool.

Yeah. I remember game 1, we were texting and you were like, I don't like, I don't like this Wemby on Towns.

Yeah.

I don't like this. He's gonna, he'll get away from this as this goes along.

I kept telling you, I was like, I don't like this matchup.

Yeah. Yeah. Well guess what? He stopped doing it by, by game 3.

Yeah.

Give me 2 young players who aren't superstars or, known stars yet that you think are gonna get there?

Well, he's known, but Edgecomb has a chance to be really good 'cause he has the makeup. And I think having Maxie around him—

So you're buying stock on the Maxie Edgecomb combo?

Edgecomb thing. It may be too small, we'll see.

What did you like about Edgecomb?

His edge. Like, he's gonna be— what Edgecomb is gonna be, I don't know how good he'll be offensively. You know, he played on Austin's AU, team. I don't know how good he'll be offensively. He's ahead of where I thought he was already, but he's gonna be an elite defensive player in the NBA. Elite. That's coming. And, and you can see that. I'm trying to canvas the league with my imagination right now.

'Cause I would've thrown Dylan Harper in there before the 5.

Well, Dylan Harper's already known.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like that's the obvious choice for all of us is Dylan Harper. Hello.

I was thinking like—

And Cassell is the other guy that we don't talk about enough. You know, Cassell is a, being a consistent shooter away from being a consistent all-star player every year.

How about Cedric Howard?

I don't know yet. You like him. Yeah.

I do.

Yeah, you like him. I'm not sure yet.

I do.

I'm not sure about the intangibles, you know?

Yeah, it's tough 'cause he was on a shit team.

Yeah, it's so hard to judge some of these guys. And it's also hard to judge a guy on a good team that doesn't, play a lot or play his role, you know?

Yeah.

You don't get to see it.

My problem is I don't go to as many games as I used to. And I always pick up, I'm sure you're the same way, you pick up so much more in person.

Oh, you do.

Like the Clippers backup center.

Yeah.

Who ended up getting hurt, Niederhauser, whatever his name is.

Yeah.

I love that guy. Like that guy's gonna be—

He's phenomenal.

Yeah.

That guy's a guy.

He's playing very well right now. He will be like in a playoff rotation, which—

So I got a question for you.

Yeah.

Other than Boston and the Knicks, Who will be the other 2 teams in the East?

Next year? I'm interested to see what Charlotte does with 14 and 18. And then maybe next year's not their year. Maybe they'll be like, we'll draft 2 more guys. This is a slow build.

Yeah.

But I also think they could zag the other way and just go get somebody really good and make a run at it with the shooting they have.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they move someone. And then did the trade as well.

Honestly, that was like an interesting Giannis team to me. It's different timeline, but—

Yeah.

But Charlotte was a wild card for me though.

Charles is one of those young coaches that I was—

That's the other thing. They're really well coached.

That I was extremely impressed with. We beat them 3 outta 4 times. And we caught 'em early. And I remember sitting with John, Horse, in the office and he said, "Man, that team's coming." I said, "No." Oh, they're here.

Right.

I said, I don't know if they know it, but they're here.

So I would go Boston. What do we think Cleveland's gonna look like?

I don't know. Who knows? You know, they're gonna be in it. You know, Cleveland, they have to make some decisions.

Well, they can't have $120 million tax.

Can they win with both big guys? To me, it's not the money. They can move the money.

Nah, they'll trade out.

That's the question for them.

Well, one of the things I wonder, like, do they trade Allen in a sign and trade with LeBron for the LeBron Cleveland farewell tour?

And does he even wanna do that? Yeah, that whole thing is gonna be a mess. I mean, whatever LeBron does, and he, listen, he deserves it, but where he goes and what he does, it feels like things are fractured a little bit in LA with him. But I don't know if that's actually true, but it feels that way.

Everything feels fractured until they figure out a monetary figure to make it unfractured.

The makeup is unbelievable in R&D.

Well, I told you, I think he's going to Golden State. I really do. I think that's gonna happen.

I don't believe that, but you've said that.

I really think it's gonna happen. All right, so Boston, New York, Cleveland kind of lingering. I don't know about Orlando.

Well, the two teams to me that people are sleeping on is what Atlanta does.

Right.

And then what Indiana does. Getting Zoop was big for them.

Yeah, I worry about—

They would rather have that 5th pick, you know, or whatever. But getting Zoop was, they're gonna be good next year. Now—

I just, what's Haliburton gonna look like and what's his confidence like?

Yeah. He's probably playing now. I would assume. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, Indiana's a wild card. And Indiana's the one team that's like, we could beat the Knicks. And then the biggest wild card is Detroit, who we didn't mention. What are they gonna do with the cat, with the, with, they have all their picks.

I'm glad I don't have their decision. They, to me, they have a franchise-defining decision to make and I'm not sure which way you go. And that's with Duran.

What do you think's the decision?

Duran.

Oh, I think that we know how that's gonna play out, right?

Well, they're gonna pay him, but are, are they gonna pay him the max? I mean, are they?

If they pay him the max, I, I just wouldn't do that. Yeah, I mean, You can't pay a center the max that's not Wembenyama, basically.

Yeah, I mean, that's a brutal decision because if you don't, you, you know, if I was another team with money, you wanna mess the business up?

You sign him to an offer sheet. That should be Brooklyn, right?

Yeah, sign him to an offer sheet.

Isn't Brooklyn the only one with a—

Yeah, it's only 2 teams, I thought.

Yeah.

But you, you get a 2 for 1. If they, if they sign him back, they hurt their team. If they don't sign him, they hurt their team.

Well, shit, I mean, this is no matter how much the NBA changes, This has happened every decade. Like remember McIlvaine in Seattle? Somebody offer sheeted him or whatever. And then he made more money than Sean Kemp.

I remember John Koncak.

John Koncak, right. That's another one.

John Kontrak.

He was on your team. You're right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Who was the maddest at that? Kevin Willis?

Oh, Dominique. He was making more than Dominique.

Did he make more money than Dominique?

He made more than everybody.

Oh no.

It's funny. I remember—

But Dominique had the nightclub.

He was fine. Yeah, he had 21s. The night club. I remember Stan Kasten, who was, you know, Dodger lore now.

Yeah.

But I remember Stan Kasten calling me. I said, "Hey, I need to sit with you and Dominique. We got this situation." And I remember we sit and talked about the— I could care less.

Right.

I could care less. I was happy for John Koncak. I'm like, "What are you gonna turn it down?" But the Pistons did it to screw us. And they got— and they did. It bothered our team. Absolutely.

That GM was great.

McCluskey. Oh, he was great. He was cutthroat. He was, yeah. He was mad because Stan Kasten put an offer sheet on James Edwards and he told Isaiah and them, the next free agent that the Hawks have, we're gonna bother them. And that's why he did it.

Red Auerbach did that with the Knicks 'cause they were sniffing around McHale when McHale was restricted. So he signed, it was like Sly Williams and Marvin Webb. I forget who the 3 guys were. And he made them match all that stuff.

Red is the greatest. Bruce Sparrow. Greatest coach, or one of 'em. Red's the greatest GM ever. Front office ever.

Feels like he is.

Oh, it's, if you go by the, just how they built the one team.

Yeah.

You know, they got Kevin McHale and Robert Parish for Joe Barry Carroll. They draft Danny Ainge knowing he's gonna play baseball.

Drafted Bird.

And drafted Bird the year before. They get DJ for Rick Robey, I think.

By the way, he traded for Bill Russell.

Yeah. I mean, oh, I didn't know that.

Oh yeah.

Okay, then it's over.

Yeah.

The debate is over then.

Yeah. He's like, I like that Bill Russell guy.

But you should do a show on who follows after that.

So I think Presti's in the running.

He is now for sure.

Jerry West. Because it's that, 'cause he's nailed the draft picks and he's made some really good trades. And honestly like that, and you were there for the Clippers and they're like, we need to do this. And he's like, I have to have SGA and I have to have all these picks or I'm not doing it. Well, we can't do that. Okay, no trade. And he kind of waited out Ballmer.

It was a great— this is what Sam Presti learned this time around that he didn't know the first time when he had all the players. Getting Shea was great. Getting Williams is great. You know what changed that team? He went out and got Caruso and Hardenstein. Those are the moves you have to learn how to make when you're a front office guy. And Sam didn't know how to make that move early on. And now he understands the value of that.

Well, that's another team to watch right now. 'Cause they got Dort in a team option. They have Hartenstein on a team option. They're gonna, they, I don't think they'll ever pay second April.

They're, they're really a strange team because they have so many picks, so many players. They are looking at this guy and say, well, we could play this guy, you know, like—

Right. They have that Thomas Sorberg guy they drafted. Nobody's ever even seen what he looks like.

They have the riches of all.

Yeah.

So.

So they could do, that's a team that could, Atlanta could potentially trade with.

They could do whatever they want.

I'm with you on Atlanta, but Atlanta has the same issue that you talked about earlier about who's scoring for me in the last 4 minutes of a game.

That's it.

It was CJ in those 2 Knick games.

Yeah, CJ bailed 'em out. And then he's 34 years old. Yeah, he's 34. And that's how I looked at that series. I was like, if you, you've, Cut down CJ. Who's their scorer? Like these, I'm telling you, man, if you wanna look at a championship team, start with the closers.

Well, how about the Bucks the year Giannis won? It was mostly Middleton.

It was Middleton.

Closing.

You know, the biggest change that Buck, I mean, Bud made was Giannis had the ball a lot. They took the ball outta Giannis's hands. They put it in Jrue's hands and Chris Middleton's hands, and Giannis became the roller. And that two-man combination was unguardable. Unguardable. And then they put Holiday on Chris Paul. That was after game 3 or whatever, game 2. That changed the whole series.

By the way, Jrue Holiday, did you know that that could have been the other person they traded Darius Garland for?

Oh.

Did you read that? That was a report.

Yeah. Wow.

It was their choice between Harden and Jrue Holiday. Do they beat the Knicks or come close with Jrue Holiday?

Yeah.

It's pretty interesting.

Yeah, it's interesting. He's one of the great teammates and, and team players in the last 10 years. He's that valuable to his team. I would say last 20. Yeah. He's that valuable to your team. He's just everything right.

De'Aaron Fox going for the layup. I never got your point guard take on this. We didn't talk about this at all.

Yeah, well, I, I want you to go back and look at film. Doc Rivers steals the ball from Hakeem Olajuwon. In Game 1 of the Western Conference Finals, I grabbed the ball and I threw it ahead.

You're in San Antonio?

In San Antonio. Grabbed the ball, threw it ahead to Sean Elliott. Sean promised to just dribble the clock out, right? He attacks the basket, gets fouled. I think he makes one. And Robert Horry, who was 0 for 4, makes a 3 at the buzzer. So yeah, you dribbled that darn clock out. Now he wouldn't have dribbled the clock out. And he would've— he probably—

Maybe you chop 3 more seconds off before you get fouled.

At least 3. But then now the foul to give timing comes in. There were so many things that went wrong there. I mean, why would you foul— that was Fox too— at half court?

That kind of got lost in the whole thing.

Yeah. No one talked about that.

And it looked like Alvarado almost went back court.

He almost— and I think if he had waited another second, he was going that way.

Yeah.

But besides that, Alvarado wasn't looking to shoot. He was looking to get the ball to Brunson.

As fast as possible.

Yeah. They could have wasted 4 seconds more. It would've been a 2-second timeout. They would've had 2 seconds and a timeout.

What did you feel about Mitch not calling timeout right before Wemby threw the ball away?

That's the only thing I didn't like.

Now, if I was, 'Cause it's fast, right? He gets a rebound, he's right in front of him.

Yeah, but you knew it was coming. You know, you would've been prepared. Let's say I was Flip. If I was the Knicks, I wouldn't have called a timeout because they're a veteran team.

Right, they know what they're doing.

They know what to do. And I wouldn't want San Antonio to set their defense up. The only reason I would've called a timeout, and I said it right away, is because they're so young. That's it. And you know, Wimby gets a lot of heat from that, but I'm telling you, if you watch the series, you Spurs play, they are the best advanced pass team in the NBA. They do it every time. They grab it and they throw it. And you can see, was it Cassells?

Well, he would—

His eyes were there and then he turned the wrong way.

Would you see the other angle?

Yeah.

He had both point guards to his right.

Yeah.

And he was looking up this way, but he— But they always throw it ahead. Fought right there with his hand up.

They always threw it ahead. That's what they do. And you know, But that one, yeah, I'm calling a timeout.

And then—

In 5 years they wouldn't.

How did you feel about Wemby being 30 feet from the basket on the OG tip play instead of under the basket?

I didn't like that. I said that yesterday. You know, you remember them coming out and Wemby was—

It seemed they were disheveled.

Yeah, I don't know what happened.

There was a good camera behind the basket of they were, somebody came in that they weren't anticipating.

Somebody in the Knicks came in that they didn't account for. And the other thing I think is, They were surprised OG was taking the ball out. I don't— Something happened there that I don't know. Only thing that I do know is I wouldn't— I don't think they wanted Wemby being the guy to trap Brunson.

Well, wouldn't you want Wemby in the paint just to get—

I would've put Wemby—

Just to challenge any drive?

I think you put Wemby on Towns.

Yeah.

And you know there's not gonna be a drive. There's gonna be a shot and you want your biggest guy. 6 seconds left. You want your biggest guy under the rim. And he would've been if he had've been on Towns, you know, he would've been there. I think that was a tough one. But I think—

It was still like one of the 8 greatest players in the history of the league.

He was on Towns.

Yeah.

When he came out, you could see him, he was there. And then the guards start pointing. I would love to know what actually happened because something on that floor, one of those guards said, no, you go here. I mean, they were— they— something messed them up and I don't know what it was.

Mitch Johnson this summer will be thinking about why did the ball have to bounce front of the rim straight toward OG Lay? Like, what are the odds?

Perfect bounce.

It was a brick. It just like—

First of all, not only was it a perfect bounce, you know how hard it is to tap that in? The ball didn't have to go in.

I think that was like a 1 in 100,000 play.

It was, but it's also 1 in 100,000 being alert.

Yeah.

Like a lot of guys would've been standing there. He saw it and went for it.

And then there's an angle of Vassell comes from the side to try to hit the ball. Yeah. Yeah. Harper was the guy.

Harper was the guy that I thought could have got there a step earlier. If Harper gets there a step earlier, he's in front of OG.

So if they, if the Spurs win that game, what happens?

I think the Knicks win the series.

I think the Knicks win the series anyway.

Yeah.

Anyway.

I agree. I thought—

'Cause they could go in San Antonio and win it. Didn't matter.

Yeah. I think— Clearly, they had 5 exact same games. I think we would've had 2 more of those games. And that's what I want. I just wanted more basketball. All I have now is the US Open this week in golf.

Who's your pick?

That's a good— I'm going with Xander Schauffele.

That was one of my 2. I had him or Fleetwood.

Yeah, Fleetwood, I don't know the length, but I'm going with him. And then I think Scottie's gonna have a good week this week.

Is it true you're playing in a celebrity tournament?

Yeah, I'm gonna play. Yeah. You know, the bar has been— Can you play with Larry? The bar has been— Larry is supposed to play with me. I've told NBC that Larry wants to play, right? Larry calls me and says he wants to play. Now, I— you're getting to know Larry, but I've known Larry for 35, whatever years.

You guys are my favorite buddy cop comedy. Yeah.

There is 100% chance if Larry commits, he's gonna back out. All Larry needs is the night before we're leaving to hit a shot and it goes wrong and he's out.

That's it.

There's no way Larry's coming back.

I still can't believe he went to Game 4 after the Game 3 loss. I thought he was 100% chance he's flying back.

Trust me, there was conversation about it. Also, he told me if he could have left at halftime of Game 3—

He would've just left.

He was thinking about it.

But it did give us, one of the single funniest videos in the history of the NBA. The Josh Hart layup.

And then he gave me the greatest text in Game 3. He, I'm, I'm sitting there watching and I get a text and it says, hey, can you tell your buddy Mitch to, to, he's standing in my way. Can you ask him to please move?

He was blocking his view.

He was blocking his— Larry said the whole game he was trying to look around. He said, and I can deal with Mitch, but then they had this other guy, this other assistant. Yeah. He kept jumping up and I was like, Net YouTube.

It's a curve episode. He's trying to trip him.

It's a curve episode. It's funny.

All right, Doc Rivers.

Good seeing you. I love your studio.

Great seeing you. Thanks for coming over. This was a blast.

Hey, Bill has an amazing house, people. Woo. It's amazing.

Thanks, Doc.

Yeah, it's nice.

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Doc Rivers. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. Don't forget rewatchables, Hand That Rocks the Cradle, That one is already up. Domestic Disturbance next week. Please watch this. John Travolta, Vince Vaughn trying to be a bad guy. Uh, really special movie. I think I'm gonna have one more podcast before the end of the week. So, uh, we'll try to have something hopefully Thursday or Thursday night, uh, heading into the second USA World Cup soccer game. I can't wait. Uh, see you later in the week. Must be 21+ in President Select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18+ in President DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope Is Here, visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.