Transcript of "Michael Douglas"

Okay, guys, I'm just, uh, just walked to my mailbox. I'm going through my mail. Let's see what I got here. I got a jury notice. Uh, probably toss that. I have a, uh, sweepstakes. Uh, I should probably enter that. I have a utility bill that's gonna be turned off. All my lights are gonna be turned off. Okay, I should probably— I'll probably toss that. And, um, oh, what's this? Let me open this really quick. It's an all-new Smartless right now!

Smart.

Smart glass. Smart glass.

Guys, guess what's coming up in a couple—

Yeah, yeah, I know, we got to mention—

Oh my God, yeah, the Hollywood Bowl.

Hollywood—

we're going to be at the Hollywood Bowl October 17th.

And not just there, like not hanging out, actually doing that show. We're going to be on the stage. Yeah, yeah.

And if you don't have tickets yet, you go to smartlist.com/live.

Is that right?

Wait, what's it— what is it?

smartlist.com/live.

Oh my gosh, that's pretty easy. And, and for that, they're gonna, they're gonna get a double guest. Is that right?

Yep.

2 guests.

And we got some fun, we got some fun surprises.

Oh yeah, really?

Yeah, we got some fun surprises.

All for the price of one ticket.

Yeah.

And a nice, beautiful October— October 17th, correct? Right. A fall night out there under the stars.

It's gonna be gorgeous. And, and you— yeah, you buy a ticket and you can't, you can't put a price tag on a smile.

Oh, what a great sell. You know, Will, you're the best. Anyway, it's gonna be a great night. Yes, hopefully as great as this next guest coming up. Guys, let's get to the episode. Guys, I was racing out of the house to come be here on time.

Yeah.

And, um, out of the house?

Yeah, he had to go across the compound.

Oh.

Into a separate structure.

Yeah, sorry. Yeah, yeah.

Golf carts, a half-hour golf cart drive. Tell the listener.

Wait, guys, everybody just— Oh, I thought— Well, you can keep chewing, Will. Just everyone else just listen for a second.

God.

I know.

It's an audio show.

Yeah.

Anyway, and there in front of the window by the front door, Lying on the ground is a small bird that had hit the window, I guess, earlier, and was not yet dead, but deeply wounded, hurt. And I'm racing to you guys. I didn't have a chance to stop and help. I had to call back into the house. And Amanda, I think, I hope, is tending to the young bird. But guys, I'm not good about seeing injured animals.

This is the second time in 5 days that there's been a dead bird, a bird that was injured. Remember on Sunday, Mape came across an injured bird.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's going on?

What if that bird tonight was sitting at the dinner table just all wrapped in bandages and was like, hey, I'm just gonna be spending some time in your house from now on.

And now it can speak.

Yeah.

Boy, that would be fantastic. I mean, I'll never forget, right? Michigan Frog? Isn't that the name of the frog?

Yeah, Michigan J. Frog.

Michigan J. Frog.

Hello, my baby.

Hello, my honey. Hello, my ragtime gal.

What was the lesson of that particular cartoon episode?

I don't know, but every time, yeah, he said, It was somebody who— he was like, oh my God, you got to hear my— it's like saying, I have a friend who's really funny, watch. And then they don't say anything funny. I have a frog that can sing, watch. And the frog doesn't sing around anybody else. And then he rents out Carnegie Hall and the frog just goes ribbit. Everybody's like, what? Remember that?

And then, and then he got his own network, the WB. The WB, yeah.

And then he got the WWWB.

Yeah, I remember that show.

So, uh, how's everybody this morning?

Good. Scotty's birthday's coming up. I'm gonna take him to the Lucas Museum.

Boy, speaking of Scotty, that Scotty, you played us that music that he wrote for the college there. I mean, it's just like— that was stunning. Stunning, stunning stuff.

Thanks.

It's like John Williams.

I thought it was John— when I walked in, you guys were playing it, I thought it was John Williams.

He recorded it with the John Williams Orchestra, basically.

Yeah, like a lot of people who play it for John Williams.

It's a compliment.

I mean, it's really talented, man.

Yeah, it's great. It'll come out— thanks for saying that. It'll come out in a month or so. I'll post it. and all that stuff.

So you're taking him to the Lucas Museum?

Lucas Museum, yeah, dude. Didn't that thing just open?

I just read an article about that this morning, yeah.

Yeah, more banana.

So— Yeah, you just gave me shit, and then you fill your mouth and then start talking. Yeah.

Don't do it.

Do the gross banana sound.

Do it.

No, I can't. I'm a respectable guest.

No, you're doing it. No, you're doing it. Don't worry.

But so this episode is— we're in October.

This episode is brought to you by October.

And the Lucas Museum opened a couple of weeks ago. On his birthday.

It opened on his birthday.

Yeah. And I'm very excited to go see that.

Yeah.

So you're going to the opening on his birthday?

We can't. We're gonna be in London, but we're gonna come back after that.

But what are you gonna do with your pocket protector?

Yeah. What kind of outfit will you guys be wearing when you go to the Lucas Museum?

Oh, full cape.

Tatooine.

Yeah.

Some sort of a loose-flowing robe. Oh, he's got the Tatooine hat.

Yeah, I do. Oh my goodness.

Yeah, I mean, I'm super, super excited.

You know, I hear there's not a lot of Star Wars stuff in there.

No, uh-uh. You'll be hard-pressed to find something in there.

No, no, truly.

I think JB was being serious. I'm being serious.

No, I just saw a video of it. Somebody took a video of who's already in it, and there's tons of Star— of course there's tons of Star Wars stuff in it.

All right. Just the article I read.

Jason, you just caused a panic in the nerd community.

I was like, what?

Why?

Why would you call? Or maybe what they said was—

I'm calling my congressman!

Not as much as you would think. It is much more about the—

No, you're making all this up.

I was reading it in the New York Times this morning.

Oh, really? Okay. Oh.

Another bite for sure. Sorry, Jason, go ahead.

Another bite of that.

The karma is so instant, it's fucking bananas.

And then I'm gonna move into this, my Aloha Bar.

Aloha Bar. Those bars are great. They're just filled with stuff you don't know.

Yeah.

No, there's plenty of—

Why not just eat whole food?

They describe it all on the back. This— these Aloha Bars, everybody, is the best.

Those are your snacks. You know what I had for a snack before bed last night?

Let me guess, let me guess, let me guess.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dumplings?

No.

A gallon of caramel corn?

Nope.

Um, molasses?

No.

Hot wings?

A can of sweet peas with butter.

What?

I just ate an entire can of peas.

Wait, wait, what are sweet peas?

Sweet peas, like canned peas.

That's something I call somebody.

Canned peas. Are you— are you— were you— did you go into your doomsday bunker and just grab an extra can?

What happened?

Did you get some Tang? Did you make a big jug of Tang while you were down there?

Yeah. By the way, that sounds good to wash it down.

Wait, I don't understand. Where did you get a can of peas from?

I stock my whole pantry with peas because I like it as a snack. I just eat a whole can.

True, truly. Like loose peas.

Yeah, loose peas.

Into a pot. Now, do you— how are we doing it?

Yeah, I put it on the stove in a pot. Takes like 2 minutes to get warm.

With water.

With water. And then you strain it and you put butter on it and then you eat it. I ate the whole thing.

Sure.

So you just love the taste of beans?

By the way, Sean, again, again, we— it's not like we don't believe that you ate the whole thing. That's not the issue. The issue is—

Or the butter.

Or the butter. The thing— the issue is the thing itself.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cheese is something that's just, uh, it's just always kind of there like parsley on a plate, and you don't pay it much—

Brought to you by your friends at Del Monte.

You don't really pay it much mind.

I think that was them.

You made a whole meal out of it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, because they're sweet. I don't know. It's like a, it's like a sweet snack.

Sure.

Yeah. I love— don't you like pea soup?

I do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This is a different—

That's soup. Yeah.

These are solids. Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, um, If our guest is still up, yep, um, we're gonna, we're gonna fire up a conversation with him.

JB, you sure you don't want— you sure you don't want to just get rid of that?

Let me just unwrap the Aloha Bar.

No, I won't.

All right, now fellas.

Yes.

I'm not sure how to properly introduce this guest this morning. To go through his credits now would take an hour. To mention his nominations and awards would take another. He's been a steady and consistent presence in our business that is anything but steady and consistent. For over 60 years, he has managed to act and produce some of the best, most entertaining, most respected, best-remembered projects the business has turned out. But he's also worked at a gas station where he won— he won Mobile Man of the Year. No, of the month.

Do you hear a bird? I think the bird's okay.

The bird's alive. Um, he also did a full year of college at UCSB. Okay, a full single year. Um, he was almost kidnapped at age 8, and he's beaten cancer. He's got a new book coming out, covers it all in fine detail, but he's stopping by here today to give us a few bits and pieces. It's a great honor to have him here. Please welcome the man behind The China Syndrome, Wall Street, Fatal Attraction, Basic Instinct, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Romancing the Stone, Falling Down, The War of Roses.

Michael Douglas.

Many great films, folks. Michael Douglas.

Oh my gosh.

Michael Douglas.

Oh my God, Michael Tuch. Nice to see you too.

Is it Legend Day on Smartless?

I know, I know.

What a troika.

I mean, can I— I want to call you sir. Can I call you Michael?

Call me Mikey. You can call me sir.

Mikey? You'll never be Mikey.

Mikey, anything you want to chase.

You know, going through your stuff, doing the modicum of research we do here, I just— I'm just knocked out, sir. The amount of highest quality work possible that you've done with your time, as well as just commercial success as well, and the producing, and then just the life you've lived when you're off the set. I just— I don't know how you've packed it all in. So thank God you've written a book about it. So happy you're here to share it.

What's the name of the book?

One Hell of a Ride.

Okay, perfect title.

That's great.

Perfect title.

That's great.

Um, well, um, I, I mean, can, can, can we start near the beginning? I mean, I, I just, I, I would love to know, um, you know, obviously your father had a, had a head start with things, um, and, and showing you what this business, uh, is, is about and what it could be. How, how early on did you think that you might want to do that as well?

Not too early.

No.

I think— no. I think probably being the son of— my mother was an actress too.

Yeah.

And so I was aware of the business. But I know you guys would find this hard to believe, but we are a fairly self-involved group. And—

We like us.

They talk about the order of, you know, God, our country, family, and then us. and then career. But I think for us in our business, career kind of comes first. So, um, I— my folks got divorced, um, at a very young age when I was like about 5.

Yeah.

They'd just gone out to California. My father just started getting a movie career. And, uh, he probably kind of acted like a guy who'd never seen a girl before. So it didn't take long before my mom would say, Yeah, no, I don't think this is gonna work out.

I'll stay in New York.

Yeah. So let's go back to New York, kids.

Yeah.

So I basically grew up as a New Yorker.

Yeah.

As part of— as being part of the royal family, we had a small apartment on the West Side facing the alley. It was on Central Park West, but it faced the alley. This was 1948, '49.

Yeah, Central Park West facing west is not great.

No, not at all.

That's funny.

And so I knew them, both as working people and as, you know, how anxious we all are to get a job. And they weren't ready to make those sort of, I think, choices between the family and stuff. So my early years were sort of bouncing back and forth between going to private schools, private schools in New York City, and all-boys schools in uniforms.

Yeah.

And then going out to California on the holidays to visit my father, who's incrementally was continuing to improve and beginning to get a taste of that Hollywood.

Right. Did you get a feel of that when you were back in New York and you're at school? You must have— obviously, your dad, of course, as you said, started to work more and more and be, you know, was a major movie star. How did that start to impact your life when you were back kind of living a New York life?

Yeah.

Well, you know, kids are inherently nasty. And the truth is—

There's our quote.

I don't know if any— did any of you guys go to camp or anything?

Oh, yeah.

Sure. Awful.

Brutal.

Awful.

So inherently, if the kids know something more about you than you know about them, and in my case, oh, his kid's a movie star. Oh, he must think he's hot shit.

Yeah.

Right.

You know, you haven't opened your mouth yet. You know, already, he's hot shit. So where do you get him?

Yeah.

So you already realize that there were pluses that went along with it. But the minuses were the fact that they had something on you. They could make assumptions about who you were and what your background was, which was difficult to some point. So getting back to your question, Jason, I think that's why I thought this is the last thing that I wanted to be involved in. It was this sort of very kind of self-involved film. My mother was a, you know, she was doing soap operas back East on stage. And so we had nannies or housekeepers and a big part of our life.

Sure. But the life out there in Hollywood, you know, watching what your dad was doing, all the things that go along with it, was that the first draw to it or was it more about the craft and the art? And because you did, You did study quite vigorously in New York and did a bunch of theater. And like, so when was— at what point did the craft sort of motivate you into the career versus maybe the lifestyle? Or was the lifestyle ever an attraction to you?

No, I think the biggest advantage of being second generation is that lifestyle is not a surprise to you.

Right.

You understand the insecurities, the foibles. I'm with my father and his best friends, Tony Curtis, Janet Leigh, Gregory Peck, Frank Sinatra.

Wow.

You see them at night. You see them as real people and their insecurities and this and that. So, no, the reality to me was when I was in college and had to declare a major. And it's a little different what happened, Jason. I went to University of California at Santa Barbara after going to boys' schools, my entire life, right?

Uh-oh.

Including prep schools, all-boys schools. And I remember my senior year, you know, in prep school, you know, you have your college advisor.

Yeah.

And they always reminded me of, like, travel agents. You know, they had these brochures in their hands and they would go through these brochures like a travel— and you'd sit there and all of a sudden, wait, wait, wait, stop. And he pulls out this brochure and there wasn't any Ivy League buildings or anything else. It was sort of a high shot of a guy walking down the beach carrying a surfboard in a bathing suit. And on either side of him was a girl in a 2-piece bathing suit. Now, this was 1963. I had never seen back East a 2-piece bathing suit in my life, never yet on a college brochure. So I said, hey, hey, hey. I said, I'm going—

That looks good.

I'm going there, man. I'm going to go there.

Didn't you get accepted into Yale?

I did.

Yeah. So, and you were like, yeah, but look at the bikinis.

No, no, no. Jason, my ass was so tight in boarding school that I knew I had to— I had to leave.

Yeah, you had some catching up to do.

The beaches in New Haven don't really stack up to the beaches in Santa Barbara. Exactly.

So that was actually at 16 or 18, and that was the best— that was the first big decision and a crucial decision in my life because for a number of reasons. It was 1963. '64, Vietnam War is just beginning. East Coast is where the most political activity was going on. Berkeley was leading the ground.

Yeah.

The other UC campuses were picking up on it. And also the hippie movement, which played a really important part in my life. So what happened after the first year of college, at University of California, they politely said, look, I don't think you're ready for college yet. Why don't you take— it wasn't really kicking you out, but why don't you take a year off, a year break? And that's when I went to the Mobil gas station in my hometown of Westport, Connecticut, and was the Mobil Man of the Month.

I don't know.

Those were the days in a gas station. I mean, you guys don't even remember. Those days in a gas station, when you went to get gas, They had your windshield wipers wiped. Yeah, checked your oil. Your oil was checked.

Tires.

You had your tire pressure checked.

Yeah, right. You know what you're reminding me of? Remember, you must have known this all too well. Do you remember the sound of that ding? They'd have that hose that'd go across when a car would roll up.

That's how you know they're there. Ding.

Do you remember that?

J-Beam when your car would roll up. Oh yeah.

I love that. That doesn't exist anymore. I just, I love this. I don't know, it's nostalgic for me.

It's true, that does not exist anymore.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael, was that, was there a name for that thing? Is it like— was it called the ding hose?

I'm serious. Watch yourself, Jason. Watch yourself. Yeah.

The ding hose. Let's see you watching— let's see you eating that banana again, JB.

Sean, you had a problem with your ding hose the other day. And we will be right back.

And now back to the show.

So what happened— what happens, I came back to college after my year off. I came back to college and I began to study To Santa Barbara? To Santa Barbara. Had begun to be involved with the, let's say, the artistic group on the campus, that group that hung out in the corner of the student union in raincoats and dark clothes and this and that. And was introduced to this, you know, this whole other world. And when I came back, Went to the vice chancellor and he said, well, you know, you gotta declare a major. I said, what? And by this time, man, by this time I'd, you know, gotten into it a little bit, man. And so I said, what do you mean? He said, you have to declare a major. I don't know, man. I said— and so I said, I guess the only thing I know the most about is theater. You know, I know my dad, I watched this.

Sure.

So still never having an inkling about acting or anything like that. That was when I declared theater as my major and began my pursuit on that area, which I was not a natural at.

No, but you seem pretty natural to me. I mean, I gather that, you know, you didn't learn how to be such a great actor in class. I bet you were— well, obviously, you were born with a lot of it. It's in your DNA. But can you recall the sort of— Your style and your ease with it and your talent with it growing over the years? And did you feel like you had enough under your feet when you went into, say, I would imagine the big launch was Streets of San Francisco. Did you feel that you were equipped enough to take on that role and vault you into an ability to make a living in the business?

No.

No.

Next question. I began with major, major stage fright.

Okay.

Wow. I could not go on. I could not walk onto a stage without a wastebasket right offstage, which I would puke into.

Really?

Before I'd go on the stage, I had total stage fright. And I never thought I'd be overcoming it. And the only reason, the only reason I think that I actually stayed at it was to try to overcome the stage fright.

And what did it?

So one big thing happened in here at this time was that after my sophomore season, my stepfather, William Darren, who I grew up with, was on the board of a new theater called the National Playwrights Conference in Waterford, Connecticut. And what they would do every summer is they would put on like 6 new plays. And they had a small acting group that would, you know, would do these plays. And my first summer there, I was just sort of an apprentice kind of cleaning up. But what happened is then they sort of allowed me to be part of the company. And the focus was on the material, on the play. You were only there as an actor, as a tool to make these plays better. So you would sit there and you would run through the scenes—

Wow.

Or run through the show. Then you'd sit on the sidelines. and listen to the notes that the director would be giving to the playwright in ways of how to improve the quality.

Yeah.

So at a very early age, right at the beginning, I learned that everything was the material. Everything was about the quality of the material.

And that allowed you to get out of your head about the result of your performance.

It certainly helped. It certainly helped, but it allowed me to help understand the choices that I made professionally later on, i.e., it wasn't about the part.

Right, yeah.

It wasn't about who would be starring. It's about how good— I think this is gonna be a good movie. And because I had these years of formation on it, and then I was, you know, so then after school I was doing Off-Broadway in New York and finally got a CBS Playhouse, which they did on television, which turned out really well. And CBS back then had a film division. I signed a contract. I went out to California and proceeded to make 5 turkeys. 5— 5 really shitty movies.

Yeah.

One— the one I remember about, because CBS also owned Radio City Music Hall, and the movie was shown at Radio City Music Hall And this friend of mine, John Guare, who was one of the playwrights that I had met through O'Neill, he called me. I said, John, did you see the show? He said, yeah, yeah. Well, what'd you think? He said, Michael, let me just say there were more people up on stage with the Rockettes than there were in the audience.

Yeah.

Uh-huh.

You know, not to sort of go back a little bit, but it's interesting when I hear you as a young actor and you have that experience with the playwrights and that play, that process, that must have helped you, carried you on, because you've had such a prolific career also as a producer. And it must have— you had an early appreciation of what it is to build a thing, that it's about the material, all that stuff. Is that true?

Is that accurate? That's exactly true, Will. And that's why I can't emphasize it enough of how important it was not looking for parts. So anyway, after these— The Five Turkeys, I was sort of sliding into television. And this is where, you know, where good luck, you know, just good grace happens for you. And 2 things happened to me early in my career. I was doing FBIs and medical centers and this and that. And then Streets came up. And Streets was a lawsuit that Quinn Martin, who was a very big-time producer at that time, The Fugitive, Cannon, Barnaby, he had all these shows that he did.

Oh, wow.

they used to do. Quinn had this lawsuit with this brand new network called ABC. And he won the lawsuit. And the result of winning the lawsuit was a 2-hour introduction movie to the series and 26-hour episodes committed, like in the first season. So they, you know, for a guy so my age, they said, hey, man, this is a real great opportunity.

It's a go show.

And it starred Karl Malden.

Yeah.

And Karl Malden, you know, was worshiped by Marlon Brando and was just an unbelievably hardworking actor and a really good actor. So those 5 years, I did 104 hours that I spent with Karl Malden.

Wow.

And also structurally, once again, preludes, 3 acts, prologues. Learning structurally, you know, and what your responsibility as an actor is, and then working with different directors every week in this was so helpful and was a tremendous opportunity. And then the god— from God that was handed down was One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, which was a project—

Incredible.

My father had developed and gone back himself to Broadway to do the show. It hadn't worked out. I had read in college 20th Century American Literature, the book, like everybody who was taking acid, it was their favorite—

Yeah, yeah.

Their favorite novel. And then as I was working away and then I sort of overheard Dad talking about selling the project when I was there, I said, oh man. And I never thought about producing, but Dad, please let me try to get this set up. I'll try to get it set up, you know? with you playing the part, with the production company and all this.

So the original idea was for your dad to play the lead part, not you?

Oh, correct. No, it was gonna be his part.

How old— excuse me, how old were you at the time? I mean, this is ambitious.

Yeah, it was ambitious. I was— I started about— I was 23.

Wow.

I was 23 going on 24.

Wow, when that movie came out?

That's amazing. And the movie— by the time the movie came out, I was 30.

Okay, okay.

But he was so— he tried. So then he said, well, give me a year. Let me try to get it going. And so while I was doing Streets of San Francisco, which was being filmed in San Francisco, and we were shooting 26 episodes on location, so 6 days a week, right? 6 days a week, 8 and a half months straight. I was a motherfucker. I mean, I was, you know—

You're in every scene.

You know, you couldn't ask for any harder work. At the same time, I was able to hook up with this— my partner Saul Zaentz over at Fantasy Records in Berkeley, which is up there. So I would then go on over to Berkeley. We would work and nurture it. And so by the time I'd finished the 4th season, we were able to make the movie.

Wow.

And they wrote your character off to free you up to give you the time to do all the finishing work on the producing, yes?

Correct, Jason. But the reality is, and we all know, and I know you know, that, you know, for a network to say, I have a 5-year contract with you, right? But we're gonna let you out.

Yeah, yeah.

It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen at all. Yeah.

Well, what do you think you saw in that project that no one else saw? Because you did get a series of passes passes there. It did take a while to get it going, and then it does eventually go on to become the film that it is. It wins all 5 major Academy Awards, you know, and you're 31. And what do you— it couldn't have been blind luck. What do you think you saw in it that everyone else ended up finally seeing?

I think I saw that it was a really, really good story. You know, a really, really classic good story. And I think I overcame everybody saying, um, who wants to see another Snake Pit?

Sure.

That was the big thing. Who wants to see— no one wants to see a picture about crazy people. And I bought— later on I checked out and Snake Pit did very well, thank you very much. It wasn't the thing that happened. But I think it was the innocence of not having been burnt yet and making mistakes and And Saul, my partner, sort of was the same way. So— and we were strictly, strictly an independent picture. But we went, you know— and I remember, so Saul and I went to talk to the directors, and most of them were up in the San Francisco Bay Area, and they were all kind of smug. And, you know, we tried to talk to them, and they kind of kept their cards close to their vest. You really couldn't feel what it was going to be.

Yeah, when did you get Milos Forman?

And we found— and Milos. And I remember looking— Yeah, oh my God. Someone told me about Miloš and a couple of his pictures, his Czech pictures. One was called The Fireman's Ball, which was— in one way was similar to Cuckoo's Nest in that all the characters took place, like, in one room and had the right sort of humor. And Miloš was in the middle of sort of a breakdown. He was living in the Chelsea Hotel in New York. That's where they happened. And he had a friend of his, Ivan Passer, also Czech director. And Miloš would give Ivan Passer all his information about what he wanted Ivan to tell his shrink. And then Ivan would go instead of— Miloš would leave. Ivan would go for Miloš to the shrink. and share all this stuff and come back. So the fact that when we got the script to Milos, he flew all the way out to California.

Yeah.

And he sat down with us at my place up in Benedict Canyon and opened the first page. And he told us exactly what he wanted to do. I remember Saul and I just started crying. We were just like, oh, God, here's a man who's gonna share with us But we want so much. And so—

How about that?

When did Jack Nicholson come on board? Was that Milos' idea? Was it studio?

Was it you guys?

No, it was—

no, no, we tried, uh, we tried to get Gene Hackman. Gene Hackman passed.

At what point did your father— what point— at what point did your father say, yeah, it's not going to be for me, go cast him?

That's, that's not the way it went down.

Okay. Oh, wow.

No, the moment came, the moment came when I had to go to Dad and say, Dad, He said, we got it going, but it's not gonna be you playing McMurphy.

Wow. How'd that conversation go?

Yeah.

You know, careers had changed. He was in his 60s by then.

Okay.

And the business had changed. And it took me even a long time, I'm sure you guys know, to realize you can count on 3 fingers the good parts you have in your life. You know, the really good parts you have in your life. And this was one of them. This was a great part. And he was hurt, upset. I mean, I gave him half of our— my producing deal, which ended up being more money than he made than any picture he'd ever done in his life.

Right, sure. Wow.

Which made things a little easier. But it was the toughest thing I'd ever had to do, you know?

Oh, I'll bet. I bet.

It was rough.

How long did it take to repair that kind of— What was your relationship after that?

That's a good question. You know, I talk about it in my book, you know, a lot. And I had the greatest adoration for my father. But he was rough when we were kids. He was out of that—

Yeah, sure.

He was out of that abusive generation, you know.

Yeah, you did something wrong, you'd get slapped or get a— You'd get smacked. Yeah.

Big time.

Yeah, sure.

you know, we were pretty scared of him. And, and not to mention the fact that he just was this omnipotent character, you know, Christ Spartacus, the Viking.

Sure, of course.

He's just larger than life, and he had a temper that went along with it. So our, our relationship was not— was cautious, uh, growing up. And my love for him grew and grew to the day he died, and my admiration. But in the early days, It wasn't there.

For sure.

And that certainly didn't help.

Yeah, yeah. Maybe you mentioned this in the book. I don't know. I really look forward to reading it. But was there a moment where you guys were able to sort of— you got over it and you guys were able to reconcile? Did you ever have the— I don't know, what's the word— closure that you wanted from it, from this experience?

Yeah, we did. I mean, we did. you know, at a professional point in time, which I think really was— for me, it was the year of Fatal Attraction followed by Wall Street 3 months later and winning the Oscar.

Yeah, what a year.

For me, finally feeling like I stepped out of the shadow of this amazing guy.

You know, for the first time ever in my entire life, about 2 months ago, I watched Wall Street.

Yeah.

Oh, wow. I just saw it, and I was blown— of course I was blown away. And you say, Michael, there's 3 roles that an actor gets. You've had— I feel like you've had 2.

I know. I was gonna say, there's an incredible run. First of all, you mentioned Fatal Attraction. You don't know how many times in my life I've used the expression, I will not be ignored, Dave. Right, right, right. But was there a moment— what was that moment? Because you did have this incredible run of these great roles. What was the first— coming out of Cuckoo's Nest as a producer, and you'd done Streets, you'd done all this stuff, what was the first film role that you were like, okay, now I'm in a whole different league here now. This is getting the attention, and now I'm getting offered the roles I want. Do you remember that?

Was there a signature? Well, yeah, but here's the gig. I was an Academy Award-winning producer, but I was a television actor.

Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you all know—

That really spilled.

It's gotten a lot better. But back then, man, it was 2 separate rails. You were in television, and I think before me, the only— I think it was Steve McQueen and Clint Eastwood who had made that transition from then, from getting into films. So I got the Oscar. I'm set up in the production office as a producer. And I'm just— and I'm hanging on to what I realize is my biggest strength, which is understanding material, knowing good material, not worrying about my part.

Mm-hmm.

Not worrying if— and you say good roles, but a lot of my movies, you know, Glenn Close had a great role. Sharon Stone had— a lot of times it was never about my starring role. I just wanted to be in a good movie. And I figured it was better to be—

Yeah, but you shone through. You shone through no matter— even though you say that, despite— you were— yeah, man, I mean, integral to all of those.

It's what I've watched and studied and admired for so long about you, Michael, in your career, is that it's so interesting to hear you put to words what I guess I've been absorbing, which is that you've always been servicing the film, the story. There's— I've never watched you and thought, oh, this guy is doing me a favor and giving me a performance that he thinks I bought a ticket to come see.

Right.

No, like, you've always behaved on screen assuming that the audience has bought a ticket to see the film, not you. And so you've always just disappeared and you've been— you've been us. You've been this trustworthy proxy that is experiencing whatever story is going on around you. And it's just been— it's been a real gift that you've given. I can just speak for myself.

Yeah.

You've given me— you have been this great proxy, this great tour guide that have brought me through so many great stories and environments and challenges and complications and decisions and successes all through your character. in these stories. It's just been stunning. I just couldn't imagine having a better career.

Truly. Jason, thank you very much. It is true. The one note that I hear more than anything else from people is, you know, when I see your name, I don't know what it's gonna be, but I know it's gonna be good.

That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

Yeah. I mean, what a compliment. And I remember hearing a story once this guy was telling about a big movie star. I'm not gonna name names, but a big movie star went and he was having— this is 30 years ago. And he went into a studio, and a well-known studio executive, who we all know as well, and the movie star was saying, you know what? He came in late, and he said, I want to do this, I want to do that. And the executive stopped him and said, hey, motherfucker, I'll put the guard at the gate in your role. You're not the star. The movie is the star.

Right.

That's right.

Yeah.

And it always stuck with me, that story.

Now more than ever.

Like, that idea kind of goes back to what you were saying, Michael. Just always, it's the story. It's the film, right? And it's important. Even hearing you say it now, it's like, I've just absorbed that and been like, yeah, I gotta remember that. I gotta remember that.

So starting after that then, you know, I got a run of good productions. Again, not because after Cuckoo's Nest, I had Romancing the Stone, which I wasn't gonna play the part. I just, I couldn't get an actor to play the part, you know? I tried to get— and then finally I was fortunate enough, the studio wanted Debra Winger. That's another story. And then it didn't work out. And then finally the studio, you know, had met Kathleen Turner. She'd done a sexy picture she made. Oh, The Heat of the Night?

No, not The Heat of the Night.

No, with Bill Hurt.

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I can see the poster right now. Was that before or after China Syndrome?

That was after. And then China Syndrome, and originally I wasn't gonna play the part. Richard Dreyfuss was gonna play the 3rd role in that.

Such a great movie.

And then The Jewel of the Nile. So I had like 4 more hits as a producer. I happened to be in them but didn't have parts. But I had, you know, I was developing a movie called Starman, which Jeff Bridges did.

Oh yeah, I love that movie.

I wasn't approved. I wasn't approved as the actor.

No shit.

Yeah, no, I was producer. Jeff was, you know, so there's still a lot of that for, uh, for a while.

We'll be right back.

And back to the show.

And then what was the thing that gave you the sort of the, the box office juice to be able to be the film star? Uh, was, was it, was it that year of Fatal Attraction, Wall Street in '87?

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, that was really kind of where it was okay. It's put to bed now, or at least I did.

I mean, that's bizarre to me to think, to think that it was that late.

Yeah, I had some hostilities about it. I mean, I did about the— Really? Well, about the whole television thing versus feature film.

Right.

It's always been—

But as a producer, though, you must have been cognizant of sort of minding the pocketbook and what star could translate to a presumed base level of ticket sales based on what they did in the last film and all that stuff. So you were probably aware a little bit of what the studio's agenda might have been and how it kind of made sense, even though it probably didn't feel any better, but—

I was, Jason, but I was so fortunate from the very beginning that I only went on, this is the best person for it, or—

Sure.

I mean, I never, ever took an audience's reaction into it. Another picture like that would be Falling Down.

Yeah, incredible.

Falling Down, which I love.

Joel Schumacher.

This picture that nobody thought of was gonna work at all. But I just realized how important those years at the O'Neill and then all those script episodes really just played such an important part in reminding me about structure and telling— being able to tell a good story. A good story. And also the reality that if I didn't do the part, man, there's 10 other people that can do it.

Well, you know, most of these incredible characters that you've played, they're men who are seemingly in control, but they're really— they're deeply flawed. And what is it about those characters that for you make it so fun to play and to explore and to kind of make your own?

I think it's just the generation that I grew up with. I think the Vietnam War made the gray area— who's the good guys, who's the bad guys? My dad's generation, they had white hats and black hats.

Yeah.

My generation, it's been a little murky.

Sure.

And I seem to be attracted to the, you know, the person—

Exploring that.

Yeah.

Yeah, 'cause it does seem like, yeah, you were mentioning the generation before, there was this artifice that the male role needed to adopt or learn or carry. And then, you know, you playing these parts where the fun for the audience is watching these cracks in that veneer, in that artifice, and seeing the vulnerabilities and the humanity in these men. in these outwardly seeming put-together men.

Yeah. And even looking back to Cuckoo's Nest, we could not find an actress to play Nurse Ratched because the politics— the politics for women at that time was, you know, you don't want to be a villain.

Right, right, right. Oh, interesting.

Yeah, that's interesting. Guys love the villain part, right? Oh, man, we want to play the villains. That was the most interesting part. Back then, Anne Bancroft, Colleen Dewhurst, Geraldine Page, they all turned it down.

Wow.

They didn't want to play the part. Let me ask you guys a quick question.

Yes, sir.

With all of your successful careers, man, Jason, I've watched you, wonderful actor, but hell of a director, man. Hell of a director too.

Thank you, sir.

Sean, what can I say?

You guys worked together on Will Grace, didn't you?

Yeah, we did. We worked together on Will Grace. Oh, that was a long way away. How did you come about on this? And then I just see that you're live at Hollywood Bowl. So this is a whole big thing, man.

I mean, it's the greatest gift. It's the greatest gift that's ever come to the 3 of us.

This is an accident.

We get to hang around and be idiots, and we get to talk to folks like you and have these conversations. And fortunately for us, there's a bunch of people out there that are willing to listen to us.

Yeah, days like today, it never feels like a job, but days like today talking to you It's unbelievable. Yeah.

I mean, and like, these are— Michael, when you were on Will Grace, I would've never asked you these questions. But now in this form, I wanted to so badly.

You wanted to, and the producers told you not to.

Right.

Yeah.

I was just blown away that I was acting with you in the scene.

Can I just add? So you do all this— I mean, again, as Jason pointed out, and we all know, you have this incredible— all these incredible roles and all these incredible projects that you produced and that you shepherded and that you believed in when other people didn't. And so you do all this stuff, and then— You, in the last— I don't forget when you did the first one, but you kind of dipped your toe and went fully into the Marvel world. And all of a sudden, you're doing a whole different genre of thing. Was that like— was that just another gig, or was it like stepping into another world for you after all that you had done?

Right. Well, let me just back up a little bit because it helps explain it. So what I've done in the book, you know, obviously, my childhood, I think, is pretty interesting in terms of my mother being Bermudian and my father a Russian Jew and how they came together at Academy and all that stuff and growing up. But then what I decided to do as a producer, a book that really meant a lot to me, was a book called Memo by David O. Selznick. And if you ever get a chance or ever interested to know what a producer does, read Memo.

I'm gonna do it.

So what I thought I would do rather than just kind of continuing my history was I took 10 chapters and I took 10 chapters, I took 10 movies and I go in depth. I mean, I mean, a whole thing, 30, 40 pages. on each of them talking about how it was created, initiated, what the steps were that came through it all, what personal involvements there might have been in the making of it. And so that takes up a good chunk. And then for me, I remember I got cancer. I got stage 4 cancer. And things weren't looking great.

Yeah.

And so this is moving on after a whole crux of stuff. And after my cancer and after I survived and got out of it, I was really fortunate enough to have this Liberace project with Steven Soderbergh and Matt Damon, Behind the Candelabra. which was a great movie.

Yeah, a classic.

And then I just said, well, look, what haven't I done? What do I want now? What do I want to do now that mortality's more of an interesting subject for me than it was before? And I said, well, you know, I've never done any green screen. I haven't done a green screen picture. And that was how that sort of started. And so, you know, I looked around at the agents and the Ant-Man thing came up. And it was fascinating. And I'm sure you guys are familiar with green screen, but, you know, it's another type of acting. It's interesting. It's weird. And there's some people who are really good at it. And then the other thing is they say, well, what else haven't you done? Well, I love comedy. I love comedy. I'm not particularly good at it, but I just appreciate it. I never know why it's not nominated for Oscars every year. Yeah, I mean, it's a beautiful art. We all appreciate comedians. and funny people. So this situation with Chuck Lorre and Alan Arkin.

Oh, yeah.

The Kominsky Method, yeah?

Kominsky Method.

So I said, man, what a chance to learn—

Oh, that's right.

You know, fuck, to learn comedy. I mean, Chuck Lorre sitting with Alan Arkin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I did that. I did that. And then finally I said, I've never done a period picture. Every movie I make is about contemporary Right. Situations and all of that. So the Ben Franklin series came up, 8 episodes, took all year, that. And after that, I realized I was tired, you know, deeply tired. And I took a— but a lifetime, a lifetime tired. And I sort of stopped working, not retired, stopped working. But I love not working. I love not working.

Well, it's given you a chance to sit and review how well—

And enjoy it all.

How well you have spent I mean, good God, man.

You know what, Michael? We ask a lot of that. It's funny, you just answered a thing. We ask a lot of people, we say, you know, you've done this, and you're known for this genre, or whatever. And we say, is there anything that you haven't done? And I like the idea that you kept asking yourself, what is the thing I haven't done? And really gone for it. And there's a sort of— I think that's a great way to approach it, right? To like, how can I challenge myself now? I mean, is that what you would say to young actors? to have that mindset?

Well, I don't know what to say to them now, but it's so damn tough. It is so damn tough, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there's no— I mean, casting, you don't see a casting agent anymore. You got to self-tape. They don't even have offices anymore. You used to go in and see your casting agent, you know, and they get to know you.

Yeah, right.

It's so tough. I've got 3 kids, all who are actors. They're doing okay, but it's tough. But to finish this off, so all that happened. Then back when I had the cancer, there was a guy named Shane Salerno who did a rewrite for me really early on. And I was shocked when you— how few people reached out to me with cancer. Maybe something about cancer, they don't want to get—

Yeah.

You know, but nobody— I didn't get much. Shane, who I hardly knew, he every day would write me these You know, you can do it, kick it. You're gonna make— you're gonna be fine. Don't kick it. Anyway, so Shane's got a literary agency kind of company now. And then he just kept pushing me, hawking me about doing a book and doing a book. And then I thought about it. And I think, you know, between Dad and I now, we got 90 years, 90 years in the film industry.

Of stories. 160 movies. Wow.

My dad was very prolific. He wrote about 10 books. So just for a legacy, I figured, you know, I would keep it going for legacy to write the book. And then also for my memory because you forget a lot of shit.

Were you happy with your level of recall? I have a hard time remembering last week. No, I don't. But it like— was that— what was that process like? I would imagine you wouldn't know You never know how good it's gonna be until you start getting into it. But it sounds like you've— it's crystal clear on all of this incredible detail.

Jason, I'll tell you my secret right now. Hire someone to start looking, going back over your diary and just start placing it together each year because you have no idea. I had no idea. And then in the book, I talk about it a lot The years of some heavy drug use can mess us up.

Yeah.

And be careful what you wish for because all of a sudden I had a big production company. I could finance movies. I had people running it. I lost that ability to pick one thing at a time. And I was a little overwhelmed.

Yeah.

You know, I had issues with my son. He was in federal prison for 7 and a half years. My first marriage. So I looked back and I'm happy to talk about the demise and the downfall of cocaine for one year. Yeah, sure.

Same.

Same.

When you do look back and you've written this book and you talk about all these things, and these are just life, right? I mean, these are things that happen in life. And I feel like now we're all in our mid to late 50s, could play— easily could play 40s, right?

30s.

Late 30s, maybe.

But when you look back, are you— despite the things that— the great success and tough times, when you look back, do you go like, hey, you know what? It kind of— you feel okay about it in that way? Do you feel—

Oh, shit, yeah. I mean—

Yeah.

Well, first of all, Hollywood royalty. I mean, which really— this nepo thing really pisses me off. Because I don't know a career where a father or mother don't try to help their son or daughter get into their business and this and that. And why they picked on this, because of the well-known aspect of it. But yeah, no, I— like I said, what a ride, man. It's been unbelievable. And other than—

Incredible.

Too much drug abuse, I can't say anything. Sure.

Well, my boys are cool. By the way, sorry, JB, I was gonna say, it's funny you say the nepo thing. It's like, we don't chase down when we see a plumbing truck that says McGlynnan Sons. We don't go, hey, you nepo asshole!

Well, that's what I was gonna say. It's not exclusive to the entertainment industry. There are sons and daughters—

No, it's everywhere, but they make it like we're the only one, you know?

Well, you managed to weather that all very well, seemingly. Is there something that you can say to the children of— To our kids? Of parents, our kids or, you know, kids in the entertainment industry, but kids in any industry that feel like they might have a burden of living through or up to the shadow of the generation before them. Is there something that really helped you navigate that as successfully as you did?

Recognizing good material. I mean, not counting on it. I mean, getting something— the problem we all have is we don't play an instrument or we don't paint or we don't write. You know, we're standing there But a good piece of material, man, a good piece of material helps things along real well.

But personally, that sort of conversation you have with yourself about, am I even going to try to live up to or even exceed what has come before me? What was it that you identified in yourself that gave you kind of the idea the inner strength to do that?

I think it was inherited from my father, who had incredible stamina, tenacity, was a motherfucker. And, you know, was just really, really, really tough. And could, you know, hang on there. This is, as we all know, this is not a business if rejection is is going to bend you over, you know?

It's—

rejection is the fuel. I think it makes you tougher and stronger. And I think you have to create your own identity. You have to trust in yourself rather than try to become an image of a relative.

That's true for life.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's—

Because for all this stuff, I just— I'm 82 now. And I've just recently said, hey, man, with all this, there's not a lot of 2-generation movie stars. You know what I mean?

No, sir.

I can't name any. So pat yourself on the back, man. Yeah.

Well, you, sir, that would have been another great alternate title for your book there. A big, big pat on the back because my God, you did it.

I tried. I was going to call it Before I Forget. But, uh, wait, wait, that's a great title. But they all said, wait, wait, he's got Alzheimer's? What's his problem?

They all said, yeah, yeah, you mentioned that you had somebody go through all your diaries and stuff, but I actually legit want to know, did you— have you been good about keeping a really good diary all these years of stuff that you've done?

Oh no, I, I, I have no diary at all. I mean, I, I just have my, my secretary's, you know, my address book. My address, where I was. I mean, I forget what year I made a movie. And then slowly doing that. And then I was fortunate enough to work with enough actors who had better memories than I did.

Oh, great.

Yeah, for sure.

Oh, great. Well, listen, I'm gonna let you go. And I cannot thank you enough for doing this and talking with us. And I know once I read the book, I'm gonna thank you again for putting it all down on paper. So huge, huge thanks to all you've done, including this book. this hour with us today, sir.

Yeah, thanks, Michael.

Thanks, Jason. I'm glad we're thrilled. We appreciate it, guys. You do a wonderful job. So keep it up. Hollywood Bowl, okay.

Yeah.

Who knew?

We'll see you there.

Take care. Lots of love. All right. Bye-bye.

Thank you, sir.

Thanks, Michael.

Bye-bye. Well, that was, um— Wow. I mean, we didn't even get to Fatal Trap.

Oh, did we?

We didn't get to Basic Instinct or the game.

I know. How?

I know.

Like, I wanted to ask him about Fatal Trap.

I will not be ignored, Dan.

His relationship with Danny DeVito that still has been amazing.

I know.

Jason!

Jason!

I wanted to ask, but I didn't know.

Let's bring him back. Let's do a twofer. This guy— I think Michael Douglas needs minimum 2 episodes.

Yeah, for sure.

It's really stunning what he's done.

Well, it's funny. When he was on Will Grace, I was like, I wanna ask him about all that. And then he's on today, I was like, I wanna ask him about all that. And I didn't do either.

Can't do it.

No, but—

Gotta read his book.

Yeah.

Yeah, I guess you gotta read his book, which will— But it's just— It's stunning. And he was saying, you know, yeah, it's hard to come out, to step out from the shadow of somebody like Kirk Douglas. It's like, as he said, Spartacus, for Christ's sake.

Just that alone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he not only did it, I mean, he did it—

He exceeded his father's legacy.

Yeah, he really did. And because he had so many roles that were so different and was so long-lasting over so many decades and generations of people who appreciate him as a movie star, Um, it's, it's, it's remarkable. Truly remarkable.

I always reference Fatal Attraction as the perfect movie scene to scene. Like, just the way it's built is, is incredible. And you know that— you know that different ending, right?

Is that Adrian Lyne?

Yeah, Adrian Lyne. What's that?

Yes, Adrian Lyne.

The director.

Sorry.

Yeah, he's amazing. But, you know, she wasn't shot in the fucking head at the end originally. She killed herself. She sliced her own neck.

Oh, wow.

Really?

Yeah. And that you can see online.

Did they shoot it?

Yeah, you can watch it. Yeah, it's, it's wild. And I think the whole—

So they tested that and it didn't—

That's exactly right. And the audience is like, well, that's not very satisfying. I wanna see her get killed by, you know, somebody else.

Oh, wow.

And so, um, yeah. It was wild. It's wild to see it. 'Cause she— and then she frames him because his fingerprints are on the knife that she kills herself with, and then the cops show up.

Yeah.

Oh, and Inge, you know, the other thing is she had a really solid alibi. Bye!

Bye!

Bye!

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