Transcript of "Colman Domingo"

Hey guys, welcome to another fresh cold open. Oh. On Smartless.

Oh, is this a fresh one?

Uh, I'm happy to have you two here guest starring in a cold open.

Really excited to be here and see you guys.

Yeah, yeah. This is really incredible. I've been wanting to get you guys in a cold open for a while.

You look just like your pictures. Yeah.

So what do you guys understand a cold open to be? Do you think it is as, uh—

You just want to blast into it and get into the show.

Yeah, I know, I know what it is. It's probably short. You don't think it has

anything to do with temperature or anything like that?

No, I think we really got it.

And I don't think we belabor it in the way that you are. Okay, but anyway.

All right, so you just want to get into the show then?

Yeah, I just want to say, hey, welcome to my all-new SmartLess.

Oh, okay. Welcome, it's all-new SmartLess.

SmartLess. SmartLess. SmartLess.

Wait, there was something that I wanted to talk about. What were we talking about the other night at dinner?

You wanted to talk about your love for me and for Sean. And go ahead, we're ready to listen.

No, there's 2 things. Yeah, you want to talk about the gay chat line, and you want to talk about—

Yeah, what was it called? It was Manhole.

I looked it up. I looked it up. I thought it was called Manhole. It was called Pardon, Sir.

Pardon, sir?

Yeah, that's like, that's like you're on a crowded subway.

So, Sean, tell the story. So you, you know, it's a crowded subway. Pardon, sir. Uh, you— your mom came to you one day. How old were you? You were like 17, maybe?

Yeah, 17 or 18 or somewhere around 17, 18, 19. And I would go downstairs to the phone in the basement, and I would go— I would call like a gay chat line, like a party line, like, hey, what's going on? Sure. And I didn't know that it was like— I don't know, back then it was like $2 a minute or $5 a minute. I don't know, some crazy kind of money. Right. And I'd talk and talk and talk, and my mom came to me with the bill. She's like, are you calling— now it's called Pardon, Sir, or whatever it is. What— because she called it and found out what it was. And I was like, oh, I was so embarrassed. I was like, oh, that's just a— that's just a joke. So you weren't out? You weren't out yet? No, uh-uh. I was like, that's just a joke. We were just joking around. Isn't that funny? What's funny about it? There's nothing funny about it.

Isn't that funny?

Okay, so that's pardon, sir, Shawnee. Now what about this manhole? Yeah, exactly.

Totally. And I was like, my only comeback was, at least I have 2 eyes. No, I didn't say that. I didn't say

it. Oh, Sean.

And no, but she was really— she was really— and then I— anyway, who cares? It was very embarrassing.

I care.

I care deeply.

And then the other day, like a week ago, Will FaceTimed me. And while I was on my laptop FaceTiming with him, my phone rings and it's one of those people from another country that asked for— told me like I had a—

Oh, that sounds racist. What are you talking about?

He told me I had like a—

Like a phone bank, like a scam.

Yeah, like I had a, I don't know, like an overdue bill or something. They needed my information. And so Will, I put on speaker and Will says, I can see you. I can see you. God is in you. God is in you.

And the guy's like, oh, and by the way, the guy was undeterred. He's like, okay, that's no problem.

Well, if you can see me, here we go.

So let's get to the thing. Yeah. I mean, these scammers, JB, I mean, they get their eye on the prize. It's amazing. I said so much gibberish to him.

What was the— when you looked at your phone of the incoming call, did it say unknown caller?

No, it said the number. And then the curiosity always wins. I was like, who is that? So I always answer.

See, I can count on guys like you.

You heard about the cat, right? You heard about the cat with the key?

No.

What happened? Yeah, it ended up killing him. It ended up killing him.

What about all the emails? Do you guys get 1,000 emails a day that are just phishing, you know, with a link? You know, like it looks like an Apple bill or Amazon bill or something? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Your Amazon bill is just, you know, you click here and adjust it. I

know. And then your life's over. If you click on that thing, you're hacked. I'm very good about just deleting anything that looks a little sideways. Are you bad at that, Shauny?

I do that too, but I always make sure I— I say something funny so they know it's me. Like if I forward it to my tax guy or whatever, I'll be like, hey, this is—

That's not relatable.

I'll say like, you know, I'll do a joke so he knows I'm not forwarding—

Did you say your tax evasion guy?

Tax evasion guy.

You didn't say tax evasion guy, did you?

Tax evasion guy, yeah.

Why is he based in the Caymans? Why is he in the Caymans?

That's where he lives.

I just wanted to have a quick— I said, why is that? What I was saying, documentaries. This is a new thing. Do you guys have— There's so many what they call documentaries out now about people. And then it feels like a lot of them are endorsed by the person and they're part of it.

Yes, yes, yes.

And half of them feel like just—

Puff pieces.

Yeah, puff pieces. Like they're glazing themselves, like it's to sell them and their brand. Does that feel accurate? So I have people go like, oh, did you see the such-and-such documentary? I'm like, I don't know. The term documentary is a bit of a stretch here. Feels like a— feels like a reel, like a self-promotional reel.

Right. Yeah.

That's interesting.

There are some of those. Yeah. But, uh, but man, the ones that aren't— I'm such a documentary fan.

No, there's so many good ones. Yeah, of course.

Speaking of films that I love, I saw a film last night that is not a new film, so I'm, I'm late to this, um, as is most things.

This is fun when he does this.

Superman? Is it Superman?

The film is called Birth, and it's, it's directed by Jonathan

Glazer. Oh my God, Jonathan Glazer. Oh, it's so good.

Nicole Kidman film. Good Lord, is this film good.

Really? When did it come out?

It's

so— 2004 or something like that. Yeah. Oh, I gotta see that.

It was the movie he did right after Sexy Beast.

Yeah. I mean, I think it moves slowly, but I love stuff like that. Mamma mia, is it good. And I looked at it, I looked it up online, didn't make any money, got terrible reviews. And I'm like, well, I said, well, then my taste is in my ass. Like, in other words, like, you know, I mean, I try to make stuff and like, if I turned that in, I would think, oh my God, you have just like, here comes the rest of your career, pal. Nice work. And then you just get no money, no reviews, no nothing. It doesn't do well at all. What are you supposed to do if you got taste like that? I guess I'm doing something wrong.

No, I don't know. There's no rhyme or reason to it, I don't think. I really don't.

I think the Rotten Tomatoes thing is wild too now. Like, something will get like 90% or 100% on Rotten Tomatoes, and then I'll see it and I'm like, I don't think it's 100%. Like, I don't think it's that great.

Or vice versa. But at least with that, it's an aggregator. So you're seeing a consensus, and this film had a consensus.

Yeah, but it's fresh if it's over 60%. So that can—

Yeah, but what I'm saying is the critics sometimes kind of get seduced by— Yeah, I agree.

I agree. There were a couple of films in the last couple of years where everybody was like, Bandwagon. TV shows and films, and they all jump on it, and it's the water cooler effect, I think.

I did look at a couple of my favorite critics, though, gave it rave reviews, like a guy in the New York Times and the New Yorker. They loved it. And I guess it was just maybe just so many people reviewed it, it brought it down or something. I don't know. But man, is it good. Birth.

I think film reviews are pretty tough to—

Yeah.

I don't know. I know. I'm not such a—

I know.

You know, Rotten Tomatoes in Canada is called Rotten Tomatos. Did you guys know that? Is that right? So— Is that right, eh? So— Speaking of critically acclaimed, that's what our guest today is.

Oh, they got it right this time.

He's accumulated 146 nominations, 46 wins. Nominated for 2 Academy Awards for Best Actor, BAFTAs, Critics' Choices, won an Emmy, got nominated for a bunch of other ones, Golden Globes, Olivier Awards, Screen Actors Guild Awards, you name it. an incredible list of screen and television and stage credits, Shaunie, that you will— you're gonna get a theater story out of this guy. He's a playwright. He's a performer. You know him from Birth of a Nation. You know him from— he was incredible as Joseph Joe Jackson in Michael. You know him from Disclosure Day. You know him from The First Team. Guys, it's Colman Douglas!

Oh my God! Wait a minute! This is crazy! I know. I was just— Oh my God, I was just watching you, like, on some— oh, I just watched Michael again last night. Oh, sweet. And I was like, I would kill to meet Colman. I've never met— and here you are. This is crazy.

Good to finally meet you. We pass each other at events and stuff like that, but I've never been up because I get kind of weird and shy. Sean never stops. He never stops. You're like, I'm in seat 3A, I gotta get to my seat.

Yeah, right. I'm such a huge, huge fan.

I'm a fan of all of you.

I am as well.

Me too. I'm so excited to be here. Such a thrill to have you here, Colman. Thank you, guys. Thank you. I also just watched Michael this summer, and I was blown away by your performance.

Same here. Thank you. Thank you, guys.

So good.

Thank you, guys.

I mean, talk about something that does well. I mean, that did incredibly well. I mean, millions and millions of people watched that.

Well, it's funny, as you were talking about the Rotten Tomatoes, I was thinking that we got panned with Rotten Tomatoes. Michael was? Yeah, Michael was panned with Rotten Tomatoes. Oh, no way. Yet audiences— because I don't know, I feel like, again, I think people jumped on the bandwagon, or they didn't They wanted a certain story about Michael Jackson. And so they weren't able to look through the lens of what we were creating. But then the audiences swung the other way. And the audiences loved it.

Yeah, didn't it? It did huge box office, didn't it?

Huge. We made over $1 billion, yeah. Yeah, no way. It's the highest-grossing biopic ever made and the highest-grossing one for Lionsgate. Yeah.

That's amazing. And you guys said, hey, screw you critics, we're gonna make a sequel.

Dude, exactly. That's exactly— you're like, you know— but also what's beautiful, 'cause I feel— Listen, all right, this is— I just think that at some point, I think I naturally— maybe I just feel this way because I feel like criticism, you know, especially when it comes through the lens of like people, they want something and you're not— if you're not delivering that, they're not able to see it through the lens. Right. But an audience, I'd rather just follow someone's, you know, opinion of someone that I respect. You know what I mean? Somebody even on like on Twitter or IG or something. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'll go see it because These people liked it and they're talking about it in the comments.

I think that's the way it's going more and more, right? That sort of social media kind of crowdsourcing opinion, I think, is driving a lot of box office.

Yeah, I think it's— I mean, I don't want to be the guy who takes apart critics just because he's been on the short end of bad reviews.

As have we all.

We all have.

Yeah, for sure. But I do think it's really difficult now when I watch— sometimes I'll see a review or whatever, and then I'll look at the guy and I'll be like, I don't want to watch anything that this guy likes. Like, he and I don't have the same— and it kind of goes to what you say, Colman. It's more about aligning yourself with people who— Jason talked about birth, right? Like, you go into these things and you go, well, yeah, there are certain people who aren't going to like it, but those aren't the kind of people that you would want to go and do something creative with.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah. Do you read all your stuff, Colman?

I don't read all of it. I like sometimes I feel like I sort of like— put myself in a little bubble for a minute, but then at some point I want to sort of like pull back the blind and see what people— how they're responding to it. You know what I mean? But I really don't want it to take over the feeling I had about making it. You know what I mean? I'm not going to look at it the day after we premiere or something and suddenly like, you know.

Yeah.

But it is sort of like— it is— it's— I've always felt that since we have a public job and our product is for the masses, hopefully, it does stand to reason that you would then look at what the public is saying about it. How is it being received for the audience you are trying to please? Yeah. I guess.

It's true. It's true. But you have to be careful what you get, right? Because I remember recently I guest hosted Jimmy Kimmel and I never, I never, I never guest hosted a show like that. So I wanted to know. So I went behind the blinds of Twitter and I went on there to just see how people were responding to it. And it was overwhelmingly beautiful. But then I got like fixated on this one chick who was like, you know, you're doing too much, you know? just said, calm down, too much exuberance. And I was like, what do you mean? So I was mad at her. So, but of course I turned it into part of the monologue the next day. I was like, you know what? Because I'm human and I wanted to know like how people were responding to it.

You gotta right-size it, right? I mean, it's like, it was one person's opinion. It's not indicative of the whole thing. And even if it is everybody's opinion, how did you feel about what you did? And what size should that be in your calculus as to, you know, whether it was a positive experience or not?

Yeah, and also, but also I feel like, Art is so subjective as well. I feel like some people should fucking hate it. Yes. If you're making some really good art, hopefully it's polarizing in some way. Exactly. And people are like, I'm not sure about what, you know, people want. Like, even let's say the Michael Jackson film. I wanted to make sure I gave some humanity to Joe Jackson and really made him a bit more complex than I think what anyone would assume Joe Jackson to be. And I thought that was my job. But I feel like some people were like, no, I want more of the monster. Or like, oh, why'd you do that? So I'm like, you know, I can't please everybody. All I can do is try to do my best. Right.

If you're pleasing everybody, you're doing something wrong. Dude.

I loved your portrayal of Joe Jack. I thought it was so layered. Even those moments where you thought he was gonna blow up at Michael, then he kind of went like, okay.

Yeah.

And I just kind of loved— And I thought that was really cool. It was really nuanced. But getting to the— Sorry, I just wanted to go back to that idea. If you think— And it just occurs to me, and it's not a new idea, so forgive me. And believe me, I used to read the critics of this podcast early on, and I was reminded how unoriginal my ideas are. But, you know, the idea that back in the day, There used to be, especially when we went through these great periods in show business in sort of the '70s, et cetera, in TV and film, where we had a lot of groundbreaking stuff, and there was stuff that just we never heard of and went away. A lot of those things were driven by art, were driven by just trying to do the really cool, interesting breakthrough, groundbreaking material. And it wasn't driven by— Box office. Marketing and look— and box office and looking at—

You would never have a Robert Altman film.

You'd never— no, you'd— You'd never have any of those films because now they look at it and they go— the first thing they do is, if they're making a film, is they go to their sales department, their marketing department, and they go, can we sell this movie?

And then they go to the awards department. Exactly.

And then they go to the awards department, as opposed to, is this movie good? Is this something that we like? And people, producers, directors, actors, studio chiefs would take a chance on something because everybody agreed that this was something that could be

great. Why do you think right now that people are so— I know it's all money, but I feel like You can't have a Parasite or like, you know, what was that? Everything Everywhere All at Once. So like, imagine reading that. It doesn't sound like that movie would make any money or have any success. Right. It would scare the hell out of you if you were writing the check. Exactly. But it takes people to say, we're going to take a chance on this because we believe in this good art. And then it succeeds.

It is money. It is money, Coleman. I think that also a lot of these big companies that make the decisions, that give the— that lend the money or give the money to create these projects, films, TV, whatever, these companies are now big publicly traded companies that have to— and their CEO and chairman have to answer to their shareholders. Right? So they have a— they're like, hey, I have a fiscal obligation to our shareholders, and this doesn't meet that, fit that criteria. And it's just

straight

business. It doesn't really necessarily work with art.

No.

Yeah. Speaking of art, speaking of selling something to the public, just real quickly, Willy, I saw the Behemoth trailer 2 days ago. I think it was 2 days ago or 1 day ago.

I want to see that.

It looks freaking great. I mean, and you actually start the trailer and finish the trailer, and it's so exciting to see you up there. Oh, that's so cool. But that movie looks fantastic. Pedro Pascal, Tony Gilroy.

Pedro's amazing in it. I'll just say Pedro Pascal is amazing in it. He's— God, he's the best. And Tony, you know, the great Tony Gilroy and Olivia Wilde and Eva Victor are some great people. It's a beautiful cast.

I can't wait to see it. Yeah. Colman, can I just ask you a couple of questions about Joe Jackson? I know you're sick of talking about him.

One question. Just one caller.

Sure, no problem. Yes, John. Sorry.

Sorry, Colman. We're really sorry about Sean. Okay, go ahead.

I was just such a huge fan of Michael Jackson growing up, just massive fan. And, um, what was it like? Like, did you talk to the family? Did you talk— what was the prep like? Like, and were you petrified? Because he is such a well-known person.

I wasn't petrified.

He ran the family.

You know, the, the moment I got the offer, I was like, let me see how he lives in me. And then I started to do some research because I'm like, I think I know who Joe Jackson was, but he just seemed like a because his eyebrows were up high and all that stuff. Right. Light blue eyes and crazy-looking Jheri curl. And I was like, let me get beyond that and see— do some research. And I really looked at him as sort of, you know, I really looked at him just being a man who was born pre-civil rights and, you know, to— very modest and really had limited education, limited access, but he had these kids who have talent. And they really relied on him to, like, push them to become the best. And I thought, well, he gave everything he had. I mean, so let me look through the lens of a father. I'm not gonna look at the lens that everyone else sees him as. How does Joe see himself? And then there was one interview that I thought was very interesting. It's one interview, and Joe's sitting there, and they're like, you know, Michael's talked about, you know, Michael's talked about, you know, his abuse, and, you know, how he was beat.

Or what'd he say? And he would vomit whenever you came into the room. And Joe Jackson literally sat back there with a little smile. He said, he said that? Really? Oh, okay. He said, well, I beat him. but I beat him all the way to the bank. And I was like— Wow. And I thought that was interesting because he said— because, you know, child rearing was different back then. And he was like, it was rigor, it was discipline, and I made sure you were the best you could be so you can get out of your circumstance. So for me, that's how I framed Joe Jackson. And then I went to some conversations with— the beautiful thing is Jafar Jackson, who's Jermaine Jackson's son, played Michael. So I had him as a major source of like, hey, tell me, you know, how was your relationship with your grandpop? And he said, oh, Pop-Pop. And there was so much love that, you know, whether he or I talked to Marlon Jackson, a few others, and they always said, they were like, oh, he was a complicated man, but, you know, he loved me. And I love my dad.

Yeah. And so I wanted to lean into that about what the family— what's behind the closed doors. You know, I saw videos of Joe Jackson Day because they were Jehovah's Witnesses, so they didn't have, you know, birthdays or anything, but they had Joe Jackson Day. And it's just a simple, with them sitting around, he and Katherine and the kids and the grandkids. I'm like, oh, they're just a typical family like anybody else. And I'm sure they have problems like anybody else. And it's a big-ass family. So, but they're the most successful family. And there would be, honestly, there would be no Michael Jackson or Jackson clan if it wasn't for Joe Jackson. Right, right, right. So I feel like I wanted to look at it through Joe's lens. So that's what I did.

Yeah. Fascinating family.

Yeah. Willie, start us at the top. Tell us about Coleman. Where did Coleman come from, Will?

Well, I—

Take us through your research,

Will. So, Coleman, if I'm— you're from West Philly.

Yes. Born and raised.

Is that right?

Yeah.

Born and raised. One of 5 kids, is that right?

No, 4.

4 kids? Yeah. 4 kids. Sorry. One of 4 kids, one off.

Youngest?

Middle boy. I was the youngest for a long time, so they call it the knee baby. So I was like 12 years old before my younger brother was born. So I was the baby.

Wait, wait. What's the knee baby?

The knee baby is like you got one on the knee, and then you have another one. Yeah. That's hilarious. I never heard that.

And you had— you didn't come from a family of performers. Your parents weren't performers, nothing like that. But you had a— am I right in saying that you had a teacher who encouraged you to pursue acting? There was like a pivotal teacher in your life. Is that true?

Tell me a little bit about that. I mean, it's probably hard for many people to believe, but I was very shy. And I had a lot of— whether I had a lisp, I was not cool. I was from, you know— Lower middle class family. I was wearing my older brother and older sister's hand-me-down clothes. So by the time I go to college, I just wanted to be something else. So I actually took an acting class as an elective. And because my mother said, take something to get you outside of yourself. You know, I know you— she knew me to be a bit more funnier and have a bit more personality, but I didn't show it outside. So I took this one class. This teacher, Chris. And it was just Acting 101 at Temple University when I was studying journalism. another career where I thought, like, I was just gonna be a newspaper writer and stay behind the scenes.

Yeah, just be on your own.

Yeah, just be on my own. Just be quiet. Just be in a dark room, exactly, and nobody bother me. So, but then I took this class, and he said— he pulled me aside one day and he says, hey, have you ever thought about acting as a profession? And I said, I don't even know what you're talking about. Like, what is that? What is acting as a profession? You know, as the first kid in my family to go to college, I was supposed to go out and get a job. and a job with benefits. You know what I mean? It was no, like— the idea of me being an artist didn't even make sense. So he said, I'd be very curious if you did, because he said, I think you have a gift. And I said, oh. He said, I think you have a gift, and I'd be very curious if you pursued that gift.

Oh, yeah.

So it was like a mic drop. And I was like— and I didn't know until some friends of mine would tell me I'm at what, at Enneagram 8, which is the challenger. You know, I like to be— I like a challenge. So that was like a challenge. Like, I'd be curious. I like that challenge. So I started taking some theater classes off campus from Temple University because I didn't— I sort of kept it as my little secret. I would take acting classes, like breathing exercises and laying on the floor, filling myself up with orange juice and shit like that. All this wonderful stuff. And I loved being in the theater. I was like, wow, this is what I want to do. I want to be in the theater. So I was a theater rat for most of my career. And that was very fulfilling.

And you were like— is it true that I read somewhere that you were working in the theater, but you also were like other jobs going on. Oh, yeah.

I always had hustles.

You talked about, like, taking your final bow, and 15 minutes later you were serving drinks.

Oh, yeah. I worked at Manhattan Class Company in New York City, a beautiful Off-Broadway theater. I literally would, like, you know, bow in this— I did this show with John Randall called Bright Ideas. I'll never forget it. It was one of my first Off-Broadway shows. And I took a bow, got up, and had it timed. I would get up, rip off my costumes, which I'm sure cost a lot of money, thousands of dollars, you know, call a cab, get over to the 55 Bar in the West Village. And suddenly within 15 minutes, I— because I was like, I can— I have to be late for my shift by 15 minutes because the show started at 7:30. We were done at like 8:59. Got over there. Next thing you know, I was like, hi, what can I get you? I literally walked in the door and went straight to the bar. That's crazy. Because I needed that hustle. I was at Off-Broadway. I was getting paid like $300. $50 a week, as you know. And then like, I needed, you know, to live in New York. I was like, I had to have that job.

Sure.

We'll be right back.

And now back to the show.

What was the first— so then what was the first gig where you were able to give up that day job like that, or that gap job of whether it was bartending or whatever?

Do you remember? For a long time. When I tell you for a long time, because I think I was always afraid of being broke, I always kept a bartending job. Even when I was on Broadway, I would still have like— No way. Dude, I was on Broadway in Passing Strange and still like, you know, on a Monday night I'm like, I'll pick up that shift because I was afraid it wasn't gonna last. I was always— it was that roller coaster. And, you know, like, let me just ride this out. But it was for a long— I would say from like 20 years of my career. And I've been doing this now for what, 35, 36 years? And I think I just stopped having a side job. I think.

Yeah. But I mean—

But like— but you mentioned Passing Strange.

You're like, right after this podcast, I gotta go back.

I gotta go pick up a shift, you guys. Like, I don't know if this is gonna last. Yeah, right,

right. But Passing Strange— it's funny you mentioned Passing Strange. That was filmed by Spike Lee. Am I right about that?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But literally, when that show closed, I went back to bartending. I tell you. Wow. My career was always these highs— has been these highs and lows where I was always doing these shows that were— in my theater career, I was doing these shows that had no intention of going to Broadway. Like, I did, um, Sean may know, I did a show called Scottsboro Boys at the Vineyard Theater with Susan Stroman. Yeah. The final collaboration between Kander and Ebb. That started out, you know, we went to Off-Broadway at the Vineyard Theater, then we went to the Guthrie. It really is these really weird pieces of theater that somehow end up in the commercial space. So then I kept— really, I was just gonna be an avant-garde actor and then, like, get a rent-stabilized apartment, and that was fine for me. And then my career started to do other things.

But you were doing it, and you were going all over the place. You were in Australia, you were in the UK, like, you were really— really, really doing it in the theater.

Yeah. And also, I mean, that's the thing too, because I've always been a multi-hyphenate. I've always been a writer, a playwright. I write musicals, I write plays, I direct.

Didn't you write— didn't you write—

I wrote— I co-wrote the Donna Summer musical. The Donna Summer musical. Yeah, I co-wrote the Donna Summer musical on Broadway. Yeah, that's crazy. I co-wrote a show about Nat King Cole that was at the New York Theater Workshop last year. So it's like, people always know that even still, if you can knock on my my trailer door, and people are like, what are you doing? I'm like, oh, writing a play or screenplay. It's just like— Wow, man. I feel like those are my hobbies. Jason, what is he doing?

You know what Jason's doing? He's watching TV.

What's Jason doing? Jason, what are you doing?

He's watching TV.

My— no, my brain— I was telling them, no, that's too— that's a shitty question. No, that's a shitty question. No, that's a shitty— But so I'm just gonna ask. I'm just— I just—

this is the shit— That's the shittiest question, though. I know. Start there.

Listen to me then. I'm just so taken with your talent, Colman. I always have been. Me too. And now hearing— and that's why I was so curious as to how— how it got started in you, you know, like— and I'm always interested in this 'cause, like, I started before I even knew who I was. I started when I was such a young kid. Like, this whole notion of pretending to be somebody different was, like, a different thing for me. And to hear that you started at such an older age when you knew who you were, what is it about acting that you really like? I mean, can you tap into, like, where you go when you pretend to be somebody else? Is it about exploring different sides of yourself and people just get to watch that? Or are you conscious of the audience that is receiving this show and you're performing for them? Does that make sense?

Yeah.

By the way, that's a really good question.

That's a great question.

Amazing, really.

That's not a shitty question at all. Yeah, yeah. But you know what? To try to answer—

Mine's gonna be, do you have any funny theater stories?

We know, we know, Sean, we know.

Anything with Tyne Daly? Anything with Tyne Daly, Colman? Anything? Oh

my God,

I'd give anything for anything

Sean

was waiting for that question. But, you know, I think that honestly, I feel like— listen, and I don't want to get too sort of erudite about it, but I do think that acting is a bit of a service job. Right, that's why I was slightly nervous. It is. But yet it's incredibly wonderful to feel like— I'm very curious about other people. And I think it's also going back to my journalistic roots of, like, me wanting to be a journalist. I'm like, I want to find out why people do what they do. And if I can actually now embody it and become that person and do research. Like, I've played horrible people, and, you know, I'm sure we all have. I played— Yeah. Mister in The Color Purple, or, you know, a pimp in Zola. Yeah. Somebody who sex traffics women. I'm like, that's totally the opposite of me. I'm being such a feminist. But for me, if I find something in them and I'm like, I want to find their humanity in there. Right. And it almost makes you feel closer to people, I guess, maybe? It makes me feel like— I'll be very honest.

I feel like, you know, I feel like there's nothing I'm not somebody who truly believes in cancel culture because I always feel like there's a path. And if we look into the humanity and we really find our commonalities in some way, I feel like it's something about trying to become more human and kinder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think—

I mean, also, when you play dark characters like that or villains or whatever you want to call them, you know that they don't think they're villains or horrible people. No, not at all. So as long as you're not—

They feel justified. Absolutely. And it's really interesting finding that part of the character to show to the audience Oh my God, look at that look in their eyes. They think they're not doing anything wrong.

Absolutely.

That's a fascinating discovery as an audience.

Isn't it? Yeah. I feel like I don't— I like to lean into people who are so different than my own experience. And I feel like that brings me some joy in some way. If I can tap into that, I think that's a win.

Well, there's— you're talking about, like— you're also talking about nuance too. Like, it's sort of like a joy of nuance. There's such a loss of nuance now. You know, I don't think that people— and that's kind of the beauty of life, right? It's like, what are the things that make us different? Like, why are— You could, like, as you said with Joe Jacks, you could look at him in a binary way. You could go, he did X, Y, and Z, and then he was— But no, but Wyatt, there was a thing. And he had a reason. In his mind, he believed it. And that's kind of interesting. Exactly. You don't have to agree with it, but it's interesting.

'Cause I love all the questions around it because I feel like, I think— Listen, I can say it to you guys. I respect you guys so much, and I've seen all of your work. And I feel like part of this work that I love so much is the research and the detailing and finding the nuances and finding out what makes them tick. and where they live in your body, you know, where they live in your soul in some way, shape, or form. I think that's— it's incredibly selfish in a way, too. I feel like that's for me. I want to unpack all that good stuff, you know?

The difference between your process in doing a character onstage over a period of months versus doing a film or a series or something like that, where you're doing that one scene that day and you'll never do it again, affects sort of your ability to kind of, like, dig down and play different parts of that character stuff, do you enjoy the theater process more just because you get more time with that character in those situations?

You know what's interesting to me? Yeah. I like the idea, 'cause I'm still such a theater actor, that like the moment I'm cast, I go into research and development. Really. And Sean, you probably agree with this too. Like literally, I can take myself through a 40-hour rehearsal week for myself before I get to set. You know, if I know the work that I have to get done, I'm like, let me get into the gym and work this stuff out, put on my headphones, whatever. So when I'm on set, I'm loose. I can go anywhere with it. Yeah, I'm with you. You know, for me, that's what I enjoy. I don't like showing up— I don't like showing up and just like, oh, like thinking that this is gonna be the moment. I'm like, no, I've already— I've played it.

Do you memorize the whole thing before day 1?

I memorize at least 90%.

Yeah.

And for me, that's a trick for me to feel like it's always still very new. But also, I'm a person like, even when we go to set to rehearse a scene, I have the script in my hand. People who don't have the script in their hand, I'm like, I feel like I need it to still feel like it's—

I know, it makes me nervous when they don't have their script.

It makes me nervous because it feels like they already have a way they're gonna do it. And for me, I'm still trying to figure this shit out. I don't know what Sean or Jason or Will's gonna say or do. I don't know what—

I don't know how I'm gonna do it till I see what you're doing.

Dude, exactly. I'm gonna respond, but I've done my work. So I've been in the gym working it out, so now I can be available. And so for me, that's what feels good. And I like the idea of not being I'll be— it's funny, I had a talk about this with a colleague of mine a couple weeks ago. I think work should be imperfect. I strive for the imperfections in my work. And so I feel like that— maybe that's why I feel like when I go to set and the thing that annoys me the most is when, like, you're walking through the scene and then suddenly the script supervisor, like, she's like, oh, you know, the line is— you know, it's fine. I'm gonna fuck up the lines for the next, like, 3 takes. But I'm gonna get there.

It's gonna be different on the next take too.

But I'm gonna get there. I'm gonna get there because that's I have an esteem for my work, but I feel like I need to be raw and loose, and I'm trying to figure out how this prop works or whatever. So my brain's going all over the place.

So you said perfection in your work. Does that spill over in your personal life?

Oh yeah. Imperfection? Yes, absolutely. But also, what's funny is that I think— listen, I literally— I don't know, why am I telling you guys this? But I guess I—

It's just us.

You made me feel special. Nobody. We're gonna record the bit. Thousands of people, exactly. But you know, it's funny because I think that I realized that I had something dental possibly happen to my teeth because I was wearing some fake fronts when I played Bayard Rustin in Rustin. And I think it sort of, like, made my tooth a little go in. And every time I see it now, because I'm like, I don't remember that. Has it gotten like that now? Like, what the fuck? So I look in movies and TV, what the fuck's going on with my tooth? And now I'm just like— but then also I'm just like, maybe that's all right. I'm like, should I get it fixed? Yeah. But then I'm like, no, it's okay. My face is supposed to change, I think.

Right. You know what's cool? It's so funny you say that. I went to my dentist a couple of years ago, and he goes, you know what? Your bottom tooth is kind of in a little bit, and I'm going to get you in the Invisalign. And I kind of let him— I was in the chair, just doing a cleaning, and I was like, okay. And I said, yeah. And they did the thing, and I got the Invisalign. I started doing it after a couple of days, and then I realized— and then I go, I call him up, I go, I'm done. I'm not doing it. He goes, well, you're going to fit. And I go, I don't care. I'm not a tooth model.

Yeah, right.

I don't give a shit.

Yeah, and maybe that's the thing too, because I think everybody feels like everyone should be perfect, and I feel like, I don't know, maybe that's, you know, I feel like I maybe I want to have one of those really old, craggy British faces, you know?

Yeah, me too. Yeah, exactly.

Lots of lines in my face.

Jason, no comment.

No, I always, I always say it's like it's a privilege to get older. Like, you want to be the the most wrinkled person in the world because that means you've lived a long time. The only way to avoid getting older is to die. So anyone complaining about getting old— You got a right to die. I mean, talk about a binary choice. You're either getting older or you die. Like, which do you want?

Right, right, right.

And right. And we can get older in the best way. We could take care of ourselves and what we have and all that shit. But I feel like the idea of vanity, I feel like I don't want to have the vanity that, I don't know, that's outside of myself. Distracting. Yeah, exactly. I look at myself, I'm like, I look not too bad for 56. I'm doing all right, you know? There

you go. Yeah, same. That's how I am. I'm 56 as well.

Don't you feel?

Uh-huh. Yeah. And you know what I realized the other day? I was like, I've got these— these are laugh lines. This means that I laugh a lot. Yeah. Man, am I lucky. I get to live my life laughing a lot. Jason. Jason.

Jason. Jason's looking up plastic surgery for you right now as we speak.

No, but just like a light laser. I just did a light laser. Just a light laser. Just a light laser.

Just give back.

Right, in real life. Hey, you know, Colman, I wanted to ask you about— it's funny. So you did all this stuff. I mean, you've done so many— your credits are insane. And, you know, all this theater and film and television. And then there was that period you did Selma, and you did The Butler. And I read somewhere that you said after that, that for a minute you felt like there wasn't as much work coming your way in film and TV that you wanted. And you almost thought of giving up on film and TV. Is that true? Yeah. And then you went right into The Fearless One. The Walking Dead. Is that right about that timeline?

Well, the wild thing is I was booking a lot of these sort of like, you know, small roles in big films, like whether with Steven Spielberg or Lee Daniels or Ava DuVernay or Steven Soderbergh, you name it. But they were looking at me from like being a theater actor in New York. I was booking this stuff when it like— I would go in and sign in, you know, you have to go and sign in. And like I had like the most boutique agent that no one ever knew about up against CAA and WME and all that other stuff. And so I I felt like I was rare. I was getting in there because of my theater work. And so I would go and get these smaller roles and everything. And it was fulfilling enough, but then after I was— when I was entering my mid-40s, I was about 44 years old, and I went to London on the West End and did Scottsboro Boys, came back, and I was getting these auditions like, you know, under 5. And I was like, this doesn't make any sense. And I was like living in Manhattan Plaza in New York City, you know, rent-stabilized apartment.

Oh, classic. And I was like, you know, I was making it as an artist, but I just thought I was like, man, I think, you know, I have friends who are doctors and lawyers and they have 401s and shit. And I was like, I'm still living like a teenager. I'm like, maybe I need to do something else. Sure. And then I had a succession of auditions that felt like they were going nowhere. And they were breaking me, breaking me, breaking me. And then, of course, that was back when they had a pilot season. So, of course, there's months where they say, you're not supposed to go anywhere. I would just defy that shit. I'm like, I'm gonna go fucking Australia and do my solo show. Fuck that. So I would go into these meetings things. So I was doing a lot of work and getting some minimal traction. And then I just tried to make a stronger decision. But this decision was because of— after some heartbreak too. I think I was just— I felt after a while, so getting disrespected from the auditions that I was— the things that I was being offered or being part of or not be a part of.

Yeah. And I was like, I just want to get off of it. And I feel like I just wanted to stop before I was brokenhearted about the thing that I love the most. So I was gonna get out.

And you would have gone just primarily, exclusively to theater?

No, I was actually gonna leave the industry, period.

You were? Okay. Fully.

I had a side hustle as a headshot photographer. Really? Wow. Come on. I was making money. I was doing everybody's headshots.

Wait a second, but are people still getting headshots taken?

No, this was back— maybe. I don't know. Probably not the 3 of us. of the 4 of us, exactly. But yeah, yeah, dude, I would do headshots, like, and like, I would make like $300 here, $300 here. I was doing everybody's headshots in New York.

Wait, so you'd show up with your camera and a tripod and a roll of Seamless?

Yeah, absolutely.

Or they would come with you?

They would come with me. Or they'd come with Seamless. The backdrop. The backdrop.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, dude. No, I would set it up in my apartment, and people would come over, and I would do their headshots.

I fucking love it.

Dude, and so I was gonna have a—

You were gonna rock that.

I was gonna have a headshot business and just like stay with that, 'cause it was lucrative. I felt artistically fulfilled.

It's a great way to meet people.

Yeah. And also I felt like, again, I didn't want to be so downhearted about this industry because I loved it so much. So I was ready to leave it.

Yeah. I'm so glad we didn't lose you.

Oh, thanks. But then, like you're saying, but then, like, I had to do some strategic things. Like, as I was leaving this industry, one of my dearest friends, Daniel Breaker, he said, hey, you know, my manager's been wanting to meet with you for a long time. And I was like, nah, I'm good. I just let go of my manager. I'm letting go of my agent next week. He said, just meet with with him. them. And I went in there and I was the— I was not my most effervescent self. I really sat there, arms folded, and just like— they were like, oh, so tell us about you. Well, this is what I do. I do this, this, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. But I just— it was a bad, bad meeting for me. And they were like, well, we'd love to take you on. I said, all right, let's see. Let's see if we can give it 6 months and see what happens.

Yeah.

And literally, they said, first thing we have to do, we have to change your agent. And so I was— My literary agent was at Gersh, and they— and then eventually they moved me over to Gersh. And I went for my first couple auditions because I knew— this is what I knew. I knew that my auditions weren't being seen. I knew I really knew how to do a good self-tape, but I had no access or agency. Yeah. So literally within a month, I booked Fear the Walking Dead and Baz Luhrmann's The Get Down. So 2 series leads. I had to choose. I had to make a Sophie's Choice. And I chose the thing that was the weirdest thing because that's me. I chose Fear the Walking Dead. I'm like, what is that? I didn't know about The Walking Dead or anything. But I was like, I feel like I want to go on that road to figure out this character. The character was written— he was written like, you know, Richard III, his first monologue. And I was like, oh, this is interesting. And then I went on to do that show for 8 seasons. I was the longest-running character on there.

And directing too, JC.

Oh, then I directed. Yeah, produced it, yeah.

The new agent pushed those auditions through and got them seen.

Oh yeah, because also this new agent, her name was Elizabeth Wiedersheim, and she said, oh, I have an audition for you for something. It's a Walking Dead franchise. And I was like, I don't even know what that is. Again, I was a bit more— a bit of a snob, to be honest, when it comes to television work, because I didn't think at the time they were writing, at least for this face, very complex roles, you know, for it. So I usually— I mean, my experience with television up to then was being, you know, auditioning for every episode of like Nash Bridges or something playing a character called Cool Whip Tyrell. You know what I mean? So I just like, I gave up on that. I'm like, nah, they're not writing for me. I think I can do better work in the theater, you know?

Right, I get it. So then you started directing Fear the Walking Dead. Yeah?

Is that what you said? I started directing and producing. That's amazing. But listen, you know why? Because I'm someone like, because I think maybe it's the way I was built, it's like I walk into a room, I can't just be an actor. I've got We gotta figure out how we're doing this whole thing. How are we making it? Right. And so I— that came from Gail Ann Hurd. She came and saw— on a hiatus, I was directing a production of Robert O'Hara's Barbecue at the Geffen Playhouse. And I invited my executive producer, Gail Ann Hurd, to come and see it. And she says, have you ever thought about directing TV? And I was like, no, not really. And she says, I think you— again, someone else says it to me. Yeah, yeah. I think you may have a skill set for that. And so I was curious about it, so I started shadowing on my own show for the next year. And then they gave me my first show. to direct the first episodes.

And how did you like it? Was it comfortable?

I loved it. I think you love it too, don't you? 'Cause you're a beautiful director, man. I love it.

I love it so much. How would you— did you— so you'd been directing in the theater, but now you've got a camera. Yeah. And now you have to guide the audience's perspective and all that stuff and lenses and lighting and all that stuff. Was that— did you have a good partner? I

did. At first— Cinematically? Cinematically, I did. Like Andrew Bernstein, who's a beautiful television director. Oh my God, I love Andrew Bernstein. Isn't Andrew wonderful? He really was— he really was in many ways and really just like—

Isn't he a sweet man?

He's a sweetheart and so talented. And so I was just working with these guys who were like willing to give me any amount of information. Talk about lenses, talk about lighting, talk about you name it. How to tell the story, how to prep. And I just like, I just soaked it all in, man. And then it just felt right and natural. But also what I love about— maybe this is what I love because I direct on my show now on Four Seasons. What I love is being sort of the cheerleader. for all these smart people and coming up with a vision and saying, we're gonna get behind this. I like the idea of trying to make a day. I love being up against— your back against the wall. You know what I mean? But I love the enthusiasm and the encouragement to make something happen, you know?

Have you ever wanted to develop or create something for yourself, or have you and I just don't know?

I have. I have. I've been— yes. And it's funny because we're developing something now for Netflix, a show called Headlands. And so that's for me and some— Okay, good.

Are you gonna direct that too?

I probably— it's funny, they asked me about that, but I feel like it's a central character, and I feel like I like the idea of sometimes laying back, letting another creative come in here. I don't wanna do everything at times, you know? Right. Unless I really feel like— I didn't really— it's a— I don't know about the characters.

Yeah, Jason, he doesn't feel the need to control everybody all the time, Jason. God.

But what would you say about—

Sorry, Colman. He just has to control everything.

But what would you say about directing yourself, do you find it complicated, or do you find the opposite? Do you find that it's efficient in that that actor's kind of reading your mind?

It's efficient. Yeah, it's efficient. And I also know how to— I feel like you probably know this as well too, because I feel like I really know how to prep well. And then also, I'm okay with also, you know, I will have my handheld monitor, take a look at that. I can judge my own performance. But also, I don't mind listening to my EPs and just like anything else you need, and the writers, whatever. So I'm collaborative in that way. And so I know how to If something's not even happening in the scene, I can be fully present in the scene, and then suddenly, okay, we're gonna do a pickup, and like, hey, try this here, blah, blah, blah, whatever. I'm gonna do this, boom, and then we go again. You know, yeah.

No, you're amazing.

I love it. Yeah, that's great. But don't you do the same thing, Jason? How do you feel about it?

Oh, I cannot get enough of it. It's just— It's a high. Yeah, and I don't know, I mean, yeah, but like, thank God, you know, that, you know, I speak for the 4 of us here, that we're at a point in our careers thank God, that our ambition is matched with our access. You know, you were speaking earlier about, you know, all the talented friends that you have and maybe are without access, like you were at one point. My heart breaks for those people. There's so many people that are incredibly talented, far more talented than some that are enjoying success, that just simply can't get in the door. They can't get their tape seen.

Right.

Well, think about— yeah, think about, Colman, how long you— you just described how long it took you were in your 40s. You were doing all— you built all this. I was thinking about, you built this incredible career. You have this incredible CV of all these different roles in various things, in film and TV and stage. And then you do Euphoria. And for whatever reason, because that show is just such a part of the sort of culturally part of the fabric right now, that show is so popular. And it feels like that was the show was like kind of your coming out to a broader audience. Yeah. And everybody's like, Colman Domingo's amazing! And you win the Emmy and all this sort of stuff. Hey, man, I've been building this shit for 25 years.

Exactly.

Right? A little bit?

Overnight success.

It kind of feels that way. But also, it took, like— for me, it took people like Sam Levinson. And I wonder if you guys agree here. It took someone who wrote— he wrote the triple axel for me. He wrote something where he thought, oh, Colman can deliver this. Not something that, like, oh— like, he wrote it for me, which is beautiful. So he knew that the things I could do, and he also knew the things that probably scared me and I wondered if I could do. But he believes in me. So which— that's what feels good. And I feel like the things that I started to get more recognition for, I've really been under the hood with, whether it's the film Rustin or something like that, where I've actually been able to do the thing that I knew that I do best. I've never been— I would always say this, and I wonder if you guys agree for yourselves because you're all multi-hyphenates. Yeah. I never thought that, like, I'm not that great to just be the actor that's hired to just, like, come hit the marks and leave. I'm like, I want to know how we're making it.

You want to contribute.

Yeah, I want to contribute. How are we making this? You don't want to leave. Exactly. I want to— I show up to, you know, sometimes I'll show up to set and just, I want to see how things are made. I want to watch how we're doing that scene. I want to know how the engine— my engine will work with that as well. But also, I'm just curious about the whole process, you know?

Yeah, which makes you a better soldier, right? I mean, if you know what's going on, in all the departments, yeah, you can figure out how to maybe fill in the margins a little bit when appropriate.

Absolutely. Absolutely. That feels good.

We'll be right back.

And back to the show.

It sounds, you know, you're saying before you spent so long living like a teenager. When stuff really started to change for you, how did you, were you comfortable with the integration of a different rhythm of life both in time and also in luxury and in travel and in privacy and all those things. How is success wearing on you?

That's a great question. And I think even in the last few years, I've had to make some new agreements in a way.

Yeah.

Mm. One was even where I live now, I live in this gated community in Malibu. And I didn't know I needed it. I went to, actually, Denzel Washington's house. He was renting a house out in Malibu. And it was after I was nominated for Rustin. And he said, hey, so— and we were hanging out for like 3 hours. And he says— I said, well, I gotta get back to— I was living in Downey, this little suburban town. Yeah. And lovely neighbors knew me. Far away. Yeah, exactly. Southeast LA. And I loved it. And I lived there for like 8 years while I'd been on shows and stuff like that. And I said, oh, I'm headed back home. He said, where do you live? I said, I live in Downey. He said, what's that? that? I said, oh, it's a little southeast suburb. He's like, hmm, you been there for a while? I was like, yeah. He's like, you have gate? I was like, yeah, gate. He says, uh, you know you're gonna have to move, right? And I said, why? And he said, you'll notice that things change and you'll need, you'll need a little less access and you'll have to figure, you have to navigate that for yourself, how you have access.

And he was right, 'cause things started to change where I realized I needed more privacy to just be and to just— and for me, where I live now is like really just like, I really just get to be and just be a person and not be— That's so nice. Not being an actor or anything like that. Like the question that I still navigate whenever I see somebody out in the world, they're like, hey, what are you up to? I'm like, oh, I'm just going for a walk here. But they want to know your CV, what you're up to. I'm like, no, that's actually not me all day long. You know what I mean? Right, right, right. And I feel like it It is— I've learned because I think because it's happened later for me. First of all, I'm extremely grateful. And I'm so happy that when people see me, I know I get something that a lot of people don't. People want to hug me all the time. People want to— they're like, oh my God, could I have a hug? I've never— and really, and my colleagues are like, wow, people want to hug you.

Whatever that is that I give off, I feel like I'm very grateful for that, that people want to connect like that. Yeah. But also—

Well, you're not an asshole.

No, no. You're not that. No, no. I try every day to be a good person. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And your characters, you've done it. You've had such a run of enormously emotionally demanding performances that you've delivered just with aplomb, shall I say? Thank you. Yeah. And I think that that probably translates. I think that that probably speaks to— and I'm asking more. Are these the kind of things that you look for now? 'Cause it seems to me, talking to you, that you're a person who is looking for that kind of emotional connection constantly.

I am. I think that's— maybe that's it. That all makes sense to me. I feel like I can even— you know, we start getting to these ages where sometimes you get sort of a retrospective of your work that you're supposed to talk about, and you're like, oh, my God, I can now see the thread that I'm interested in being deeply human and connecting with other people. And I feel like that's in everything that I do. I feel like the blessing is I was able to— now doing this show, 4 seasons, that makes me feel like there's a bit more of a lighthearted humor, and I don't have to sort of carry the weight because I know that— I'm sure we all— we go deep when we go, like, into a deeper expression of human pain or anxiety. And I feel like I'd been doing that for so long, I said, I need to just wear a cute sweater and give witty banter.

Yeah. I mean, you've got— but then you've got— You've got Tina Fey. You got Tina Fey. Awful. Tina.

Isn't she horrible?

She's horrible. Tina Fey. She's not smart and talented and funny at all.

Steve Carell.

Will Forrester. Monsters. Don't even start. Monsters. All these people are just—

What about that original Four Seasons? The film is one of my favorite, favorite films of all time.

Okay, you and I— okay, you, me, you, all of us, Tina Fey, we were like, what, 10? watching that movie? Yeah, I watched that a lot. Why were we watching that movie when we were that age?

Because I think cable had just kind of gotten started, and it was one of those films that was in heavy rotation.

It was on prison.

Uh-huh. Yeah. And I just— and then all the, you know, the Vivaldi all the way through it, obviously. I was just like mesmerized.

But we were kids watching, I guess, watching a show about, like, our parents or something.

There's a lot of those, like Ordinary People we watched.

Yeah, I watched that all the time.

Alan Alda and Jack— was it Jack Weston? Jack Weston, exactly. Yeah.

Rita Moreno.

Wait, you guys, Coleman—

Go ahead, Sean. I was gonna say go ahead, but do you mind if I just ask this? It occurs to me as you sort of talk about this and being of a certain age, we're all of a certain age here in our mid to late 50s, shall we say. All of us could play late 40s, by the way.

Oh, without a doubt.

At max, 30.

I go 30.

With good lighting.

With good lighting.

You see, I was adjusting this. In the beginning, I was adjusting this like crazy.

With a bounce card under here? And I might have— Jason, you might have to Hollywood it underneath me on a framework.

Yeah, just slide in there.

Sure. But is there anything in your life— I've been going through this thing now, being 56. There's so many just kind of things that I've laid down, that I've just stopped, that I've sort of— it's taken me a long time to kind of get there. And I was wondering, have you guys been noticing that, that you're just like— Stripping stuff away?

Letting go of things.

Things you don't do anymore.

Yes. Yeah, for sure.

Like, I'm way less judgmental than I was 2 years ago. I'll go for it. Way less judgmental than I was 2 years ago. And I see it so much, and I'll be in a conversation with somebody, I'll go, does it need to be said? Does it need to be said right now? Does it need to be said by me? Like, I just kind of let it go.

Yeah. Because you don't have to comment on everything either. You can just be like, okay, cool. That's the way you feel? Cool, great. Do you guys feel that way?

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do find, Willie, building on yours, I found that I'm trying to be less judgmental in a way of just— it's sort of a lazy crutch for conversation. You know, like, I rarely— I'm rarely sincere about my judgment, and it's more about like, oh, well, let's just bond, kind of like fucking dragging this person and talking shit about this film or this— like, for some reason, criticism kind of became kind of this—

The great uniter. Yeah.

Or gossip.

Yeah, exactly. Another term for it. Exactly. Exactly. Just as like, well, it's— you feel like you're getting closer with that other person or you're signaling to that other person, hey, it's just between you and me, or we're getting closer. And it's kind of a— it's lazy, to be honest.

And you feel shitty.

Yeah. When you don't even believe it and you don't mean it, it's just like, well, instead of coming up with something that could bond you that's a little bit more positive on a different subject, I'm now reaching for that.

Let me tell you guys something. About a few years ago, I was walking around with this older woman. And she said, well, how old are you? I said, I'm— at that time I was like 52 or something. She says, oh, okay, you're in your storytelling season. I said, what's that? She says, right now you're— it's important for you to tell a story, tell a story about yourself. That lasts you into your 50s. And so when you hit your mid-50s to early 60s, you move into your truth-telling season. I was like, what's that? She says, if you don't want to do something, you just say no. I said, wait, just no? Yeah. I said, no qualifier? She says, you just say no. Because you're not responsible for the way other people feel about something.

I love that.

Isn't that dope? So I was like, I'm moving. So I sort of jettisoned right to that season. I was like, I'm gonna move right there. That feels good.

Yeah.

I've told enough stories. I'd like to get into the truth now.

Exactly. Yeah, no is a fine answer as long as you say it in a kind way. Exactly. And you just take a second to just message it the right way, and then it gets received the way you intended.

Yeah, you know, I agree. Like, um, I've kind of— if people come over for dinner, like I have friends that I haven't seen or people in the business or whatever, and they have a dinner at my house, I used to be like, oh shoot, how do you get to— how do you get them out of your house? Because it's different than going to a restaurant. Because in a restaurant, the check is the end of the night. But when they come over, they could be there for 5 hours, they could be an hour, like you don't know. What do you do now? So now I'm at the age I just go, guys, I'm going to bed. Thank you. I mean, that's it. I've literally walked out.

I gotta go to bed. Do you guys know Chris Rock? I've been to his— literally, I watched him one day. We were sitting around outside. It was wonderful and lovely. He goes up, he comes down, like, in pajamas, and he starts— That's what I do. He starts turning the lights on. That's my move. You do that too?

My move is just to go upstairs and change and come back down. Yeah.

Start turning on the lights. Like, what? Exactly. What?

Sean, you'd love— by the way, Coleman, I always say that Sean is— he always wants to be only, like, in the place that he's not in now. He always wants to be somewhere else. But I will say this. Sean, I found this person— I have a lot of anxiety. I have a lot of anxiety. On Long Island with the kids. Sure, anxiety. And I went to this restaurant I found, and they had on the table a QR code. So you could eat your dinner, and then they were like, oh, and I hit the QR code, and you can just self-check out, do the tip, do everything right there. You don't have to have the waiter come over. And it became my favorite place to go this summer, 'cause I'd go with the kids, we'd eat, and I'd be like, boom, we're out.

That's fantastic.

I like it.

No more niceties. No more asking for the check.

Nowhere waiting, then they go, they bring it back, and the thing. They need that in Europe, for

real. They need that in Europe. Because you can never get a check.

I know, that's exactly right. I just— when I was in London last year, how many trips back and forth are we doing until I pay the thing? It's endless. Wait, Coleman, do you have any horrible gone-wrong theater stories?

Yeah, we need one before—

Just like one, like something where like the set collapsed or somebody vomited or somebody in the audience died, passed, or anything like that.

A real funny one.

Hilarious one. Somebody had a stroke in the middle In the middle of a scene? No, no. No, well, no. My story— I don't know if I've—

That's okay.

About going up on a line?

No, but I won't say this, but I had— okay, in London, listen, people do things a little differently onstage. Like, they will go in between shows. If you're an old-school actor, you'll go to the pub and come back completely pissed doing the show. And I look at my fellow actor, I'm like, his face is beet red. I'm like, this dude is drunk. You could smell it. Yeah. And he would go up on his lines. My lines were always after his. I'm like, this motherfucker. So I was constantly trying, saving the scene. I'm like, oh my God. But really, but it was okay with him because he's a legendary actor and he just was a little drunk. But they're like, wow. But they're like, yeah, what are you gonna do? But they were all cool about it. They're like, he went to the pub. I'm like, wait, that's not the thing.

Did I hear you say you've got a one-man show that you do sometimes? Do you ever fear going up on your lines when you got no one out there to help you?

Oh, I did go up on my lines. I went up on my lines at the Vineyard Theater and it devastated me. I was mortified. But I went up twice because I went up on the same thing. I had to restart the show. And then I went up again. But I realized— okay, this is not to bring the mood down. I realized it was the anniversary of my parents' passing. And the show that I was doing was all about my family. And then I thought I was performing the show beautifully. But suddenly something clicked and was like, oh, no, you have to feel the show. And I kept going up. And then I was racing through the show to get to the end. Yeah. I was like— because I was on adrenaline. I'm like, I can't go up on lines. So I was performing, probably like a fucking maniac for, like, 90 minutes. I left that show, and I was just like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. I felt, like, crazy 'cause I'd never gone up on a show. But then I realized in my own, you know, psychotherapy that I was like, oh, I'm not actually dealing with this event that I don't have my parents anymore.

Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly.

And the next night you were okay?

Yeah, the next night I was okay. But to be honest, there was a breakthrough because I realized— and the beautiful thing is sometimes you have these breakthroughs, as we do as performers. You're like, oh, I was performing it. I wasn't really living it. So now I have to live it. And that was the joy, because suddenly I had a breakthrough, and it changed me as a performer as well. It was like—

You'll have a better chance of remembering all your lines if you're living it as opposed to performing it?

Absolutely. Gotcha. Okay. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah, because you have no choice, because everything makes sense that you're saying.

Yeah.

Got it.

You're not trying to, like— right? You're not trying to just—

I was doing it more for— it was more outside in instead of inside out. And so I feel like that did change me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But also, I think that those mishaps, any mishaps we have, in our work. I really try to look at it. It's that magic. It's that thing that you'll never get back. But if we lean into it, it's something that can transform you.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Well, it goes back— yeah, the imperfection, the thing where it's not corporate. You're not trying to hit something. You're not— it's just like— it's the beauty of the thing. And the most beautiful things are imperfect in that way.

Yeah. Colman, I said this story before, but the one-man show I just did, you know, You know, you're playing 10 different people. And the line was, I buzz the door and Larry answers, right? Is one of my lines. And then I go into Larry, a different person. And I was actually— it was like show 60, 70, whatever. And I was actually waiting for whoever was playing Larry to talk. And I was like— and I— because my mind— I just checked out, you know what I mean? I was like, I buzz the door, Larry answers. And I was just waiting for— like, oh, shit, I'm Larry too.

Oh, it's me. Oh, it's me.

Show 70. I'm Larry. It was crazy.

Oh my God.

I'm learning.

Anyway, I think solo shows are the most terrifying things though, to be honest. Like stand-up comedy as well.

Of course. Ultra fun.

Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, I mean, I feel like we could talk to you forever. You are— what a delight to get to know you, man. Oh, you guys too. Honestly, just been such a fan for such a long time, so it's just really a thrill to have you.

Well, I leapt at this because I really admire and like adore you guys so much. And I was like, oh, I'd like to like hang out with them and like, you know, hopefully become friends.

Well, we'll do it in person one of these days.

When I see you, I'm going to hug you.

Please hug me. Yeah, me too. I'm going to hug you too.

It'll be a huddle.

By the way, we're looking for more friends. We're looking for more friends. So you better be in it.

I'm in. I'm in.

Great.

Thank you guys so much.

Thank you for coming on, Colman.

Thank you, Colman. You guys are wonderful.

All right, pal. Have a great day. Bye-bye. See you later.

Bye. How great is he?

Well, yeah. I was so glad you brought him on, William. Yeah.

The energy. I love his energy.

He's just got so much. I mean, he's just like— that guy is an artist, man.

Yeah.

That dude's an artist.

Do you guys believe in, like— and I'm sitting here looking at a computer here— that I was still feeling like— I don't mean to sound all unicorns and rainbows, but that there was a vibe. Do you guys feel like that you get a vibe from somebody and then that person's a match for you? Yes. Like, I would get along with that person. Or, you know, when it happens in person, you just end up always getting on with that person. It's not because of anything they particularly said, or it's just— it's just a vibe. And, like, do you think that that's, like, a real thing, or is it— am I just a dingbat?

No, I mean, that's— that's why— that's why you create a relationship with somebody, right?

But, like, is it animal? You know, like, because I feel like, you know, without communication, I feel like animals do that. You ever see, like, like dogs when they just, like, stare at each other and they'll, like, they'll start, like, immediately. But they're not giving any signal or any words beforehand. Is there some sort of silent communication that exists between 2 beings at times that are a match or not match?

I think so.

Yeah, I think so, man. Hey, dude, are you going through something right now?

If you guys could just call me after this.

By the way, what if you're like, yeah, I feel that. And then And you got his number and you're like, hey, Coleman, man, I feel like we should hang out. And he was like, yeah, just sorry, man. I'm not feeling it.

Fuck you, Damon.

You know what's so funny, by the way? I didn't even realize we were both in The Running Man, the Edgar Wright movie, right? And when Edgar said— I forgot to bring it up, but when Edgar called me, he's like, do you wanna play the game show host? I was like, oh my God, yeah, that's such a great part. And then I got the script and it was just the opening game show host. And Coleman played the game show host.

No.

The actual—

Edgar should've been more specific. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He was fantastic in that too. He always is. Never terrible. But, you know, he's very famous—

Oh, boy. By the way— God, God.

You gotta get better at that.

It's so embarrassing for you.

It's always the same.

I know it is.

But, you know— He goes like this. And you see him like this. But, you know—

Yeah, and then he looks at his computer where he's sort of halfway written it out. Go ahead.

Right. So, you know, he's in The Walking Dead. or Fear the Walking Dead, you know? Yeah, yeah. And he's in a very famous episode called Days Gone By.

By. God, you had to dig deep for that one. By.

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