Transcript of Carrie, Cult Classics & Chaos: A Sit Down with Matthew Lillard

Hey weirdos, I'm Ash.

I'm Alayna.

I'm Josh Hartnett.

And this is Morbid. This, with Matthew Lillard cosplaying as Josh Hartnett.

How handsome am I?

So handsome.

Pretty handsome.

So handsome.

I mean, as Josh.

Of course. That's what I was talking about.

That's who you are today.

I loved you in that M. Night Shyamalan movie.

Which one was that?

What was it called?

The Trap? The Trap.

The Trap. You don't really love my work. If you really love my work, you would've said Wicker Park.

Wicker Park.

Wicker Park. He also stars with— I also star with Matthew Lillard.

Yes.

I start— I have a problem with my— I don't identify as a he/she. I identify as a Josh Hartnett.

Okay. I like that. I like that.

Those are good.

That's your pronouns, period. I don't.

Now we're set up.

Now we're set up. Now we know.

Yeah. I love working with Matthew Lillard. He's so dreamy.

He really is.

He has an incredible chin. Everyone says that about him.

Incredible chin?

That's what Josh Hartnett would say about Matthew Lillard.

I feel like you're right.

Yeah.

I will say this. I did that movie, Wicker Park, and it was Rose Byrne, him, and Diana Kruger.

Oh, man.

And we were in Montreal, which is a very sexy city.

Obviously.

And they all sat there and smoked cigarettes, and they talked about art.

'Cause they're super cool.

I have never wanted to be a cigarette smoker in my life. And I would watch all these beautiful people just like—

Just blackening their lungs.

Oh my God. Yes, but that has never looked so handsome. It looks cool. They were all beautiful.

Oh, yeah.

I could see how the story—

Smoking never has been sexier. But then you can just think about their lungs being, like, tarred.

Do you— when you cut open a body and somebody's a cigarette smoker, do you— can you see it?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yes.

How do you know? She tells me stories. I used to smoke cigarettes.

I'm asking the mortician!

All right, I'll sit back.

The autopsy tech.

She— it's how I got her to stop smoking cigarettes.

You smoked?

Yeah, when I was, like, a teenager.

That's so dangerous.

I know.

She was such a rebel.

Was it— did you feel sexy?

No, I felt stressed when I would smoke cigarettes.

You were— because you were gonna get caught?

No, I was smoking to relieve stress.

You knew I was gonna catch you. That's why you were stressed. I knew you would catch me. It did work.

It touched me.

Yeah.

Yeah. It did?

Yeah, you get, like, a little buzz. Huh.

Yeah. But you don't want to do it.

Your lungs will look like shit.

Yeah, so that's not, like, a PSA to do it.

Your lungs will look like shit if you do it. They really will. Really?

But then they regenerate, right?

Nasty. But it takes a little while.

Are mine regenerated now?

Oh yeah, yours are probably good. Okay, cool.

Love that.

But yeah, they look, like, rotted.

Ew.

And they're shrivelly.

Wait, why are you here? Don't you guys normally shoot somewhere else?

Yeah. We're at her house.

Where's your house?

It's— it's in Massachusetts.

How's Massachusetts?

Where in Massachusetts?

It's really good. What if I come by later for dinner?

My God, you're welcome.

Would that be creepy? No, not at all. Um, why— how are you doing this? Why did you guys start this?

She was an autopsy tech, and she's creepy, and I needed a job.

Ew.

You get to sit next to me.

She hasn't cut up bodies in a few years.

Are you still— no, you're not doing it? You're just doing this full-time?

No. And I miss it.

I'll do it again. People die every day.

They do.

I always have this thought. There is an opportunity for you to—

I could always go back.

Dig right in.

Yeah.

Literally.

Literally, you could.

I have a friend of mine in Pasadena who's a mortician.

Yeah? Morticians are even better.

Well, that's like the whole preparation of the body in any way you should.

They take out the fluids.

Yeah, but even if you catch somebody who's taken their own life or hurt, mortally wounded in a sword fight, Of course. You prepare them for burial.

Yeah.

It's a pretty crazy— he has been picking up bodies since he was in high school.

Damn.

Like, he'd have a beeper go off and be like, I gotta go get a body.

Just like in the middle of math class?

Yeah, 'cause he's like— it's his family business.

Yeah, he said he loves doing that.

I love that. Yeah.

Wow.

You love that?

Family business? In high school, you just leave to pick up bodies?

I once did an event in Kansas.

Yeah.

And the guy that picked me up was like— I got picked up in a limo. And it was like a speaking event in Oklahoma. Sorry, it was Oklahoma. It was Oklahoma City. And I'm like, oh, this is going to be kind of crazy to go see Oklahoma City. And he picked me up in a limo, and he's like, yeah, I have to go back to work. I'm like, oh, aren't you the driver? He's like, no, I'm a mortician. So you got picked up in a limo that they use for funerals.

To transport the body.

And he was a mortician with a side gig.

What the hell?

Yeah. Picking up famous people. Eh, maybe not that famous.

That's a side hustle.

That's pretty cool.

Well, is it?

Yeah.

That's pretty good.

2 truths and a lie, you know?

Yeah.

It's good for that.

That's good. Yeah, I like that.

Yeah.

What's the other thing people would be surprised about that you see as you open a body?

That everything looks the same color for the most part.

Huh!

Except your gallbladder. It's green.

Ew!

Yeah.

Look at that.

Here on Morbid, you learn something every episode.

Yeah.

You sure do.

I think people think they're all different colors because in, like, an anatomy book, all the organs are, like, different colors. Yeah.

No, they're all just, like, Big splash of brown. Like, if you had a— like, what color— what Pantone is the inside of your guts?

That's a good question. It's—

Can I get a Pantone chart?

Yeah, I was gonna say.

Does anyone have a Pantone chart?

Excuse us.

It's like a putrid—

Ew! That's a terrible word, first of all.

It's what it is.

Yeah, yeah.

It's putrid mauvy.

Mauvy? Like, muddy mauvy. Oh yeah, like an ugly eggplant?

Yeah, like a really, like—

Can you imagine walking into somebody's brand-new kitchen? I'm like, oh, I love the color.

Putrid eggplant.

Putrid eggplant.

Quickly.

Let me ask you another question.

It's gnarly. Ask away.

When you cut open a head, what's it smell like?

What's it smell like?

Wow!

Yeah.

Here's the problem. I have a deviated septum, so I was— it was the best job for me because I can't smell very well.

What's it taste like?

So it smelled the same as everything else.

It tastes— actually, the smell—

Wait, she's answering? The smell tastes like— Don't do that. It tastes like something, though.

The smell, yeah.

The smell stays in your throat, so it feels like later you can taste it.

What does it taste like?

It's a— well, a lot of times you'll get, like, a chemically taste because of everything in the room. Oh!

Yeah.

But it's also a sewer-y kind of taste.

I hate—

I hate sewer. That's the best way I can describe it. That's the best way I can describe it.

You did this. We weren't gonna talk about any of this.

We were not gonna do this.

Well, I am not interested in talking about me at all.

That's a problem.

I'd much rather talk about True crimes. Isn't that what you guys are known for? Yeah.

It is what we're known for.

That's why I'm here.

That's a conflict of interest.

Okay, let me ask you a couple questions.

Of course you can.

By the way, I very much want to host a podcast someday.

You can host this one. Yeah.

No, in general, like, I want to—

You should.

Create—

Do it.

Own a podcast.

Hell yeah.

Yeah. And you guys are super popular. They were like, do you want to do Morbid? I'm like, I don't know what that is. I'm not a podcaster.

podcast guy.

Yeah.

And if I do, it's usually politically based. But I'm just not that guy.

Now you can listen to Morbid.

I'm really— I like— first of all, I've been here 8 minutes. I love you both.

Oh my God, thank you!

Oh my God, thank you!

We love you!

The vibe was right.

I really like the two of you.

We loved you when you walked in.

You did?

Yeah, it's true.

You were immediately disarming. Well, you never know what to expect when you meet someone.

Yeah.

Sometimes it's awkward. Immediately you were just like, hey, let's hang.

Yeah. I do think that celebrities sometimes are— I don't know if it's intentional, but intentionally aloof.

Yeah.

Or they just sort of like— Yeah, I have lots of thoughts about that. All right, good. What do you guys want to talk about?

We're going to talk about Carrie.

Oh, great. I love it.

And everything else that you've done too.

Yeah.

Not everything, but lots of things. A lot of stuff.

Yeah, we would be here for days if we talked about everything.

There's a lot, right?

There is a lot.

When you start really looking into the amount of stuff I've done, it's crazy.

Yeah, it's bonkers. Yeah.

But we'll start with Carrie.

It's really shitty. You were in Summer Camp. I rest my case.

Billy Brubaker, She's All That.

There you go.

The dance scene. We actually don't have anything about the dance scene in here, and I have to just address it.

Yeah.

I love that.

And that's it. Just the dance scene.

Yeah.

I love that scene.

You know, it's funny. People always ask me, like, is— was that improv?

I was gonna ask you that.

Yeah. Nothing in Hollywood's improv.

That makes sense.

Like, that whole thing took... weeks to practice.

Choreograph.

Yeah.

And then every one of those shots takes, like, you know, 45 minutes to set up. So nothing is like—

It looked like you were just flowing.

Do you still know that dance?

Watch this shit.

Let's see it. Let's do it right now. Everybody clear space.

Hit it, Bob!

I'm like, we actually queued up the song.

I mean, I'm sure I could watch it and immediately pull it off. I love dancing. I actually really love to dance.

You're great at it. You're great.

Yeah. You are.

Thanks.

That's a great scene. You're welcome.

You're welcome. All right, let's talk about Carrie.

Let's just segue into Carrie.

Yeah, great. Okay, perfect.

So, we're going to start with talking about how I've heard that this version of Carrie is way closer to the Stephen King novel version.

You guys haven't seen it, huh?

We just started watching.

We are spinners. I watched the first episode last night.

Oh, good.

And can I just say something right now? So, I've heard that The— Carrie.

Yeah.

The girl who plays Carrie looks like— so, I have 10-year-old twins and a 7-year-old. She looks like an older version of one of my twins.

Oh!

And she also, like, acts like her, like, has the same mannerisms.

She has very similar mannerisms. She has the same facial expressions.

So, watching her, that close-up of her when she's, like, agonized in the locker room shattered me.

Oh, I saw it.

I was like, I am done.

I was like, I don't even know if I can watch. Oh, you did?

Yeah. Yeah.

Like, the bullying scenes with her, she killed me.

I— ugh, that just made me so hap— that just— I don't know. That made me, like, emotional. Like, tear up.

Yeah.

Feel emotions.

I am so proud of the show.

You should be.

It's incredible. It's very little to do with me. But that— the woman that plays Carrie, her name's Summer H. Howell, and she is— They auditioned 1,400 girls. Wow.

Wow.

Women. And they found her. The system worked. And it's like one of those things that the system never works. She submitted a tape. A month later, she submitted another tape. 2 months later, she submitted another tape. And then she started to catch fire. And then she did her last audition with Mike. And then she's like, oh! And she told the story this morning. She's like, I'm finally done. No, she had auditioned one last time, like, this is going to Mike. And she's like, okay, good. I've got the weekend off. I may hear something on Monday. And 20 minutes later, she's pulling herself a bath, and Mike Flanagan called back.

Oh my God, stop.

He says, I want you to do it again right now, and I want you to find emotion in these scenes.

She found it.

She did.

And she did it. And like— On April 1st, she got the job.

Oh my God.

Imagine getting that job offer on April 1st.

I was just gonna say, I'm so nervous. Are you sure? I'd be like, don't fuck with me. She is simply remarkable. She is effortlessly brilliant the entire show.

It comes across, even just in the first episode.

Every facial expression she makes when she's just unsure and agonized, and people aren't telling her what's going on, I was like, It was, like, destroying me.

And the idea that you don't know you're having your period.

Yes.

And the idea that you immediately go to, I am dying.

Yeah.

No one's ever told you that you're dying. Right.

You know, here goes this blood. I mean, it's really— it's— and the thing I just want to say, you know, this idea that she makes faces is not what she's doing. She has zero conception of what she's doing.

It's just what's happening naturally.

It's so real. An actor in flow, an actor who's a great actor, a really brilliant actor, it has zero consideration what's happening.

It's just, like, organic.

They're just responding. They're here listening and responding, and the energy is contagious.

You can see that with her.

And she's remarkable. And then, at the same time, Sam Sloyan, who plays her mother...

Oh, my God.

As you continue through this journey, you're going to be like, this woman is literally one of the best actors working today and has been for a long time. Just nobody sees it. And here comes her performance of a lifetime, and my hope is that if for no other reason, you should watch this show for their 2 performances. 'Cause as the show grows, the story continues to evolve. The story's brilliant. Mike Flanagan's an incredible filmmaker. But these 2 performances are remarkable.

No, they're so, so good. 'Cause she plays Beverly in Midnight Mass.

Incredible.

And Midnight Mass is one of my favorites.

Midnight Mass is— that's how I found Mike. Mike and I had lunch, got along great. He's like— I'm like, what? And I told him, to be honest with you, I don't know any of your work. What do you think I should watch? And he's like, try Midnight Mass. I love that 'cause that's my favorite.

I haven't seen it yet, but we're gonna watch it together.

She plays a character. In fact, because Ash watched Carrie for like the first episode first, and she was like, wait until you see her mother. Her mother is the perfect, like perfectly cast. And as soon as she said it, she was like, oh my God, she just embodies it. And I was like, I wonder if it's the woman who played Bev in Midnight Mass. Like I just knew it. I was like, it sounds like it. And I looked it up and I was like, yep, that was her.

I knew she was perfect.

You know what's funny?

We went to Comic-Con for the first time, San Diego Comic-Con. If you've never been to Comic-Con, it's like this. Have you guys done Comic-Con?

We haven't.

You should.

I know. I kind of want to.

I would love to.

Next year, check out Weirdos. Come check out the podcast at Comic-Con. It's going to be awesome.

We'll be there.

We're going to do a live show. It's going to be fab.

Oh, yeah.

Joining us. Her and Mike had never done Comic-Con.

Really?

And when we came out, we had Hall H. We had a massive hall. I don't think we did Hall H. Anyways, we had a huge hall and it was packed. And both Mike and Sam were met with this fervor.

Oh, yeah. As they should.

I mean, Mike understands it, but I don't think Sam's ever really heard that firsthand.

Right.

And they showed— it was the first time they screened a clip, scenes. It was awesome.

That's so cool.

It was awesome. And I love them both.

Yeah.

And so, it's been great to see her get her flowers.

Yeah. Definitely.

I love Mike Flanagan.

I know.

I was so excited that he had this. Like he was in control of this. I was like, oh, it's going to be good.

I want you to know something. He is better than you think. Like, I love Mike Flanagan. Like, oh, you're actually incredible.

Oh, that makes me so happy.

So can I tell you something? I don't know if it's going to land, and I don't know if it'll land with the podcast world, but we show up. First of all, you never have rehearsal. First of all, does anyone care about this? If I talk about Cary for one more second?

Yes. Oh yeah, we have plenty more.

Oh, please go.

If it gets boring, just cut it.

Yeah. Well, just put it in the cutout reel.

Ladies and gentlemen, there's a good chance you're never gonna see this because I'm a boring, boring man.

It's on the cutting room floor.

No way. So, yeah. So, you never— so many times you do a TV show, you'll get your script, you'll get the pilot, you read that as you go into the work. Like, you know, 2 days before you're starting to shoot the next episode, along comes the next script. When we signed up, we had all 8 scripts.

Oh, wow.

When we got there, we had 3 and a half weeks, a month of rehearsal before the start of Carrie. The first time we walked into rehearsal, Mike Flanagan said, all right, we're going to do these scenes. The idea here is that you get to know each other, but we get these scenes on their feet. He's like, okay, in this scene, the first time we worked, he's like, we're going to shoot it on this day. The time that we're going to shoot it is between this time and this time. On these first 5 lines, I'm going to be on this take, and then I'm going to reverse here. You're going to be sitting there, and I'm going to— and then these lines, I'm gonna be on her. And then these lines are gonna be in a wide. So he already knows where it lives in the cut, at what time he's gonna shoot it, on what day, 5 months before we shoot— a month before we shoot a single frame.

That's crazy.

Wow.

I heard there was an app too that you did.

I did, yes.

Yeah, that's really cool.

So he literally published an app so you could see every day where you were in the day.

That's incredible.

That's like next level.

Yeah.

I feel like more people need to do that, right?

Well, nobody has that. Nobody has that capacity. I've never seen anything like that in my life.

Why do you think he does?

Because he starts— did I just hold your hand?

You did. Sorry, sorry.

It's not rumors.

Moral support.

Because he starts— how long do you think we're going to hold hands before this gets uncomfortable?

Just the whole time.

Let's try it.

We'll just have to scroll through.

Listen, this is going to be— he— I lost my train of thought. It's been a long time since I've held a stranger's hand.

You got dazzled.

This got awkward.

You almost stroked her hair too, you know?

It got so awkward.

You guys were sitting close. It was bound to happen.

I know.

We were gonna bump.

But yeah, you never have that kind of— I've never seen. I'm sure maybe it happens somewhere else. I'm gonna get all this hate mail like, Christopher Nolan has his scenes years in advance. He's done it for over a sequel.

He did it first.

Yeah, yeah. But he's remarkable and kind, and he lays down these rules. The rules are no phones on set, don't be late, and no sides. A lot of times actors come to set, and they'll have their sides, and there's this safety net. He's like, that's not what we do here.

Oh, I like that.

You come, and you're ready to work.

He's like, this is not a middle school dance. You can't be on sides.

We did this huge scene where there's like 400 extras, and I have a speech in front of this community, and no sides, which is like, you're nervous. Your body, your instrument's responding, and your adrenaline's rushing, and you're like, You know, sometimes things just slip out. Yeah.

That happens to you?

Uh, yeah.

Wait, I'm just kidding.

What? What do you mean?

What? I'm very old. Things slip out all the time.

I'm only 30, and that happens to me too.

So, as soon as I hit 40, that really started happening.

So... Yeah. You've never really had a filter.

No.

It's an us thing.

It's like from birth.

Yeah.

Well, staying on Carrie, because first of all, again, I love Carrie. Mike Flanagan. So I'm so happy to hear that he's who I thought he was.

The best.

Like, who I pictured him in my head. I know, that's great.

The best.

So, I was reading that you also have, like, a somewhat personal connection to some of the struggles that Carrie might go through with her peers. Sure.

Sure. I had my period. I didn't know what it was.

Yeah!

I want to talk about that.

I want to know about that.

Locker rooms are tough, man.

But what resonated most for you about that?

Oh my God, are you talking about— I'm like, I was an obese teenager who has a severe learning disability. I had braces and glasses. I came from Detroit, Michigan, to Orange County, California.

Damn. That's a tough transition.

Yes! And I was this fat kid who was in drama. I mean, the amount of F-bombs I caught.

Oh, you were probably awesome.

Yes!

How many F-bombs do you catch in the mid-'80s when you're an actor?

In a drama club. Yep.

You know? And listen—

I'll fight them for you.

It's true.

Listen. I'll retroactively fight them.

You know, it's funny. I had— it's not like I didn't have friends. I had a ton of friends, but all my friends were— Those little punk rock kids and drama kids and all these kids that were sort of outside of the popular bubble.

The coolest kids.

And I've always seen myself— I think that once you're, you know, once you struggle with weight, especially as a kid, you always identify as that.

Yeah.

You know, and my mom and dad worked full-time. My dad started his own business and they just worked. And so we were raised on a steady diet of fast food and crap that we ate because we were poor, working-class poor, and no time and no energy. And my mom and dad were both obese from Detroit. And so, you know, it was a brutal experience, but that allowed me to find my voice, to be funny, to find a charm. Because how do you pass a class if you can't do it? You charm the shit out of everyone.

Yeah.

You make— how do you not get your ass kicked? You're funnier than the guy next to you who's getting his ass kicked. Yeah. You know? And so, you know, it was survival.

Yeah.

That's all high school is, is survival.

Yeah. I feel like junior high is like—

Junior high is worse, I think. Especially for girls.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I do think that. I mean, I, you know, listen, I have 2 kids. I have a, you know, I have 3 kids. I have a girl who's now 24. I have a non-binary kid who's 21 and then an 18-year-old boy. So I've seen, like, every iteration of this story. Yeah, I was gonna say.

And it continues. Yeah.

It's hard for everyone. I think that boys have more bravado to cover the suffering.

That makes sense.

And they have sports to sort of like— but it's there.

It's a struggle for all of us.

Yeah, it's a struggle for everyone.

It really is. Yeah.

Well, going back to Mike Flanagan, he takes this—

Do you think that that is why some of the reason that you found This podcast world?

Like—

Oh yeah.

Yeah?

I think partially, because we always say you're the table, or we're the table that anybody can sit at.

Yeah.

And that's why we call our listeners weirdos, you know? Like, it's like a place where we can all fit in and talk about weird topics without shame, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. See, that's why— oh, that's why I'm here.

Yeah, that's why you like us. You fit in.

Yeah, yeah, I immediately like you.

Yeah.

I only like one of you, but I'm not gonna tell you which one.

I think I know which one.

I think I don't.

Oh no, I would know. I like you. I adore you both.

Okay, good.

Yeah, I don't like that fucking guy. I don't know who that guy is.

That's Mikey.

Yeah, Mikey loves violence in his heart. I see him.

He's from Canada. No, he doesn't. He is Canadian? He's from Canada. There's no violence in his heart.

He's Canadian. Yeah.

What about that guy? Can't read him yet. He's a film guy, so.

He knows.

He's a film guy.

You know what it is? He's very smart and I don't like those kind of people. I can see, look at his glasses. I see your glasses.

These are our off-camera homies. You can't see them, but you know them. Yeah, you know them.

Uh, I like that. You're also very successful.

Thank you.

Thank you. But I think that that's— and I, and I think that's because you welcome everyone to the table.

Yeah, we try.

I think so. Yeah.

I think— and I think it's important to build other people up.

Yeah.

You can't get up to the top if you're like kicking everyone else down on the way up. I think more people need to do that.

Yeah.

I think especially as women, again, we need to do that.

Yeah.

Why especially as women? In fact, I would say, I would argue, especially men should stop kicking people down.

Yes.

Right?

I mean— Yeah. Should stop kicking people down. I think women—

Should stop kicking people, period.

Yeah, just stop kicking.

Stop it.

Especially. Just stop it.

But I think as women, we put each other down a lot.

You know what I mean? So I think we need to be more like, hey, like, come be at the top with me.

Yeah. There's no competition. We can all be here.

Oh, yeah. The world is bountiful.

Yeah.

That was one of the things I always struggled with. I've been talking about this, like, in this last cycle of press with Carrie. I lived with Paul Rudd for 2 years.

That's wild.

That's so cool.

That's a wild thing to do.

Humble brag.

No, I mean, we were both in the same acting school, and we had 3 roommates. It was him and I and this guy named Dalton Grant. But I was, for the longest time, so jealous. of his success that it really was hard. It really hindered my own appreciation or joy of my own success. And I always compared myself.

Made the comparison.

And at the end of the day, it was so detrimental to my mental health, to my approach to the work. I mean, it was really brutal. He has no idea.

Well, now he does.

Oh, he still does.

He's always listening. He's listening right now.

So lovely and so nice. And like, but I was like, so jealous. I was so jealous and so insecure.

We've all been there.

But then once you realize that, you can move on from it.

Yeah, you can break out of it.

And at least you realize it in the next one.

That's why I'm talking about it, I think. I feel like the older I get, the more I can let go of like my own, you know, idiosyncratic, like, bullshit.

Yeah.

I turned 30 this year and I feel like I'm etching or stepping closer to like not really caring. what other people think.

Yeah. Wait till you get to 50.

She says, wait till you get to 40. Yeah.

And now we're here with you, so...

40 is fine. I mean, 50 is like, I mean, what do I care? Why do I care?

I can't imagine how that must feel.

But I also think that it's not like a F you to the world.

No, no.

It's just like— It's really— you grow. I do. And I like this word a lot, and I say it a lot when I teach and when I speak about acting and craft. I love the word wisdom. Like, you have a sense of wisdom. You just don't have it at 30. And I'm not— you don't have it at— maybe you do. Who am I to say when people find wisdom or own their own wisdom? But for me, it was around 50. I was like, it seems— it sounds arrogant, like I have a wisdom about me.

I don't think so.

But I've been acting since I was 14. That's a lot.

And you've been a lot of different people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've done a lot of different things. I've done a lot of classes and a lot of plays and a lot of everything.

Yeah.

But at some point, you, like— it really helped me to sort of acknowledge the fact, like, oh, I'm a master at what I do.

Yeah.

Only because of the amount of time, you know?

Yeah.

Not the quality, which we'll get into as we discuss my filmography. But, you know, you learn over time, like, you have a sense of yourself and the craft and the business and the journey and the whole thing.

And it always feels like arrogance, but I think more people need to give themselves a pat on the back when they're—

Yeah. It's confidence.

When you figure out, you know what? I am good at this. Or, I do know more about this.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's okay to admit that.

You need to say that.

Like, oh, no, it's not that good.

But it's okay to admit that.

I know, but yeah, yeah.

It feels weird because we're taught, I think, not to do that.

Humble. To be humble.

Yeah. And I don't think you really need to be that humble.

But every once in a while, admitting that you're good at this thing and being like, You know what?

I know this stuff.

And I will say this. I have such deep tendencies, and Mike Flanagan will see this, and Sam Sloyan will someday see this, but I have such deep tendencies to slag myself off. Right. This idea, I am self-deprecating to a fault.

Oh, yeah. I am the same exact way.

And I want to say to you and to me, that so does not serve you.

No, it doesn't.

It doesn't serve you at all because the The bullshit you say to yourself sticks.

No, you're so right.

It really does. I call myself fat constantly. Yeah, it's like, or I'm an outsider.

I mean, all this language is so stupid because it trains your brain to believe it.

I was just gonna say that.

You see that when you crack open a head?

Yes, you can see it written, probably etched in your brain.

Well, I even think like the beginning of this podcast to now, I used to make fun of myself so much more often in the beginning. I used to call myself trash in the beginning. And I do, I'm still a little trash.

Yeah.

'Cause my name is Ash, so I'm like, can't spell trash without Ash. And I like, like a Captain Crunch Slurpee.

So like, what don't you— what? You keep your mouth shut.

You just don't, you don't want to know about that?

Don't dare.

I mean, you can get them.

You can.

I have not had one, but she said, I see what that does to your insides. What's that?

Oh, I thought you said I look like a Slurpee. I thought you said I'm almost deaf. I thought you'd talk. I thought you said That's what you actually said. I look like a Burger King Slurpee or whatever you said.

I thought you were just excited. I said, I used to drink Captain Crunch Slurpees.

Oh, I thought you said I look like a Captain Crunch Slurpee. And I was like, I don't talk about you that way. I don't know either, but it doesn't sound good.

No, it doesn't.

You should never call yourself that.

I've never compared myself to that.

Come on.

How do I recover from that?

What about you? I was like, you do kind of look like a Slurpee.

I'd be like, well, Matthew Lillard, I guess I know which one you like.

See, why don't you leave? Thank you.

We can wrap it up.

Excuse me, violence. Get this man out.

Excuse me, violence. All right.

I'm crying.

Let's bring it back to me.

All right. Let's bring it back to you. I want your opinion on this.

Is this the most chaotic podcast you've ever had?

Yes. Yes.

It's great.

But I'm having a good time.

We expected nothing less. The weirdest would be like, I hate Matthew Lillard.

No, cry and like laugh cry. That's good.

Have you ever— has anything on this podcast ever made you cry?

Yes. The Chris Watts case.

Yeah. The what case?

The Chris Watts case. He— it was more recent. I probably will if I think about it. I know.

Oh, okay.

He's like a family annihilator.

He's a family annihilator, and he had 2 very young daughters. And a pregnant wife.

It's so awful.

And I cry, and I'm not a crier.

I don't know how you do it. It'll bring you down.

It's tough. And I'm not a crier usually. I say that, like, I should cry more.

I'm one of those people that's like, I just stop myself from crying.

Well, don't you think that that—

It's not good.

Don't you all— I mean, when you're cutting people up, like something— you've got to detach. There's got to be some kind of emotional detachment.

Absolutely.

That does not serve you.

Yeah.

That does not serve you.

No, because then I take it into my life.

I mean, I will say this, as an actor, for better or for worse, you remove the barriers for energy that is emotion. And I— I have had to apologize to my children, my wife, multiple times for being— when I get angry, I get really fucking angry.

Because you just let it flow.

Yeah, there's nothing— I'm like, I don't—

it's—

I just— the energy comes screaming out.

You don't bury emotions.

I don't bury emotions. But also within that, I love with all of my heart. I laugh really hard. I enjoy people Like, I mean, there's lots of good things. And in the work, the older I get, the closer I am to the energy, which makes me— you know, I think it serves my work.

Get better and better.

Yeah.

But there have been times in my life where I just get—

Not so much.

Not so much, man.

Too much.

Yeah. Too much energy.

But now you have wisdom.

But now I have the opposite side, where I have to, like, apologize for not being emotional enough.

Oh, yeah. That's hard. I think that's way harder.

But you're getting better.

I'm trying.

I think.

When somebody cries in front of me, I literally don't know what to do.

And I cry a lot.

That shuts me right down.

Yeah. I have a friend of mine who called me up. He's a lovely man, and I adore him. And he called me up. He's like, I have a problem. I'm like, what? He's like, when people get emotional around me, I laugh. He's like, what acting tricks do you have?

I also will do that sometimes because I get uncomfortable.

What acting tricks do you have that help me do it? I'm like, first of all, you have to acknowledge you're doing it. Yeah, right. And just— and I think that in that acknowledgment, you have to say, I'm really sorry. And when I get uncomfortable, I laugh. And it's just energy.

That's pretty much what it is.

And all it is is your body going, I want to cry, but instead I'm going to laugh.

Because this is easier for me to—

Yeah, this is easier because it's—

I can pick this up quicker.

And all of the things that inhibit your crying are really deep things.

Yeah.

Because it's about—

It's your nervous system.

Yeah, yeah. But it's also like, I don't want to cry because I'm weak. I don't want to be weak.

I don't— like, all kinds of stuff.

Stigmas are translating that in your body.

Yeah. Yeah?

Yeah.

Because you're always telling me if I, like, go to— I'll, like, stop myself, and she's like, will you just let it out? Like, let it cry. You're swallowing it. I'm like, no, I'm not.

And then you're getting it buried.

You know what you do in that situation? Just make a sound.

Just— yeah, that's true.

Oh, I like that.

If you make a sound, it'll all— it's like, sing a song.

That would stress me out. Just sing a song.

I don't think I've ever heard you sing.

Stress me out.

Yeah.

She's not a singer.

How the hell are we— what the hell?

How did we get here?

I know. Let's bring us back to Carrie for a minute. All right, so we're going to talk about your guy Mike Flanagan. He took this story—

This is a 7-part episode here on—

We can use it for a couple of episodes.

Yeah, we could do a 2-parter, you know? But Mike took this story that's almost 50 years old, and he kind of takes this modern approach to it, like modernized social media, the high school you're walking in through metal detectors. What part of that modernization felt the most scary to you as the story goes on?

Yeah, I mean, it's— I think that every parent out there or kid will be able to identify with the horrors that is this of social media. Right? I mean, again, going back to this example that we used, which is in the first De Palma version of Carrie, having your first period amongst girls in the shower is a brutal experience. The fact that that would then be photographed and videoed and then placed online for social media for people to see.

Forever.

Forever. And it never goes away. And that— the horror of that, the impact of that, the damage that would do to kids.

Yeah.

And listen, every— there's so many kids out there that have this horrific experience that, you know, is really horrific. It's really horrible. And so, to me, that's the thing that— and that is the, you know, sort of the fulcrum of the whole piece. Once this social media, Anonymous social media post goes up, the whole story changes. And it's actually— I mean, Mike Flanagan, there's a town in California, this actually happened. And the school, it was destroying the school. And it's an anonymous social media post. And the school's like, we can't do anything about it. They didn't know who the kids were that were doing it. They were outing people across, and the whole community, like, there was a riot broke out. It's in California somewhere.

Wow.

And he was like, that is— that is a horror story.

Yeah, that's my word. Absolutely.

So he's built this whole— the whole movie pivots on this anonymous social media account.

Right.

And it fits perfectly into the story, I feel like.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Like, plops right in there.

Mike Flanagan, like, he went to Stephen King, who— he's visiting Stephen King today, actually.

I'm so jealous.

Yeah, we need to get you to see him.

So close to Stephen.

We just sent Elena's books to Stephen.

We have like one degree away of getting there.

Oh, really? Elaine is also an author.

Yeah.

Oh, amazing.

Yeah.

That's cool.

So he just got my books and I was like, please read them.

That's so cool.

He's popping up in our life.

Yeah.

Oh, you and I should talk about something.

We should.

I like that. Yeah, I have a spirit company called Find Familiar Spirits.

Yeah.

We produce a product called Macabre Spirits.

Yes.

And we have a novella. We were just reading about it. We develop a novella with writers.

That's so cool.

art from these beautiful artists that sort of— they read the story, and then they create the art. And then we create a spirit experience around the short story.

I'm obsessed with that.

Yeah, I'll send you a bottle.

Oh, my God.

I would love that.

Thank you.

I'll send you a bottle.

Thank you.

That's so cool. Yeah, you're welcome. So anyway, so Flanagan pulled social media out. To me, that's the horror. That's the true horror of the story.

I think so, too. It's like its own character, you know?

Yeah.

Well, you play Principal Grail, and he's one of the adults watching this all unfold. Do you think as the story progresses, he's somebody that genuinely sees Carrie and, like, understands her? Or do you think he's somebody who ultimately ends up failing her? Or both?

Yeah, I think he does see her. And I think he does everything he can in this moment to usher not only her through safely through this event, but the entire community. He's really trying to get He doesn't want to lose a single kid.

Right.

And at the heart of this story, the same way it's in the King novel and in all the iterations, is Chris Hargensen, played by Ali Thornton, who's fantastic. She's a brilliant actor. She is the one that, at every turn, keeps ratcheting up all these— all the drama in the story. And every single time, I'm like, You have to stop. My character is the one basically begging her, I am going to reach my hand out again to try to pull you in, to take responsibility, and to stop. And I think most administrators, he's hogtied. I mean, his hands are tied behind his back. You have a parent on one side that's losing his mind.

The school board.

Yeah. All of these elements is like, He just— he's inert. He can't really affect any change, and he's doing the best he can.

That's gotta be wildly difficult.

That must be infuriating.

Really hard. I mean, listen, I mean, it's— I think that the great thing about Flanagan is that there are no loose ends. There are no mistakes. There's nothing that you're like, where'd that storyline go? It is so tight that at the end of it, you're left with— You know, it's an allegory. I mean, the story is the question of, like, do you choose kindness or cruelty? And at the end of it, our hope is that you're sitting around a kitchen table with friends, your family, whatever, with weirdos, and you are in deep conversation about what it means to be kind.

One episode in, we are already having those conversations. Oh, yeah.

Isn't that funny?

Yeah.

I mean, I do think— here's the great news. People constantly ask, and they should. Stephen King, that's what my point was before, that I didn't make because I got lost in my calm spirits. Stephen King said to Mike, why? Why make it again? We've had 5 iterations of it.

Which is a valid question.

I know, that's true.

And Mike was like, here's my pitch. Social media is the new—

It's perfect.

And when you wrote this back in the '70s, And De Palma shot it in the '70s. Nobody could know what the scourge of social media would be. And here's a brand-new way to tell the story. It's not like kids are running around quoting De Palma's version. There's a whole new audience for it, and I think it's relevant. And 8 episodes allows you to dig in.

Oh, yeah.

You know, you really get to see all these characters. And Stephen, to his credit, said, let's do it. But it's the only way I'll do it.

Really?

And she—

What's that? for the record, fucking loves it.

Yes, that's what I heard.

He loves it. He watched it twice through.

Which is such a huge compliment.

I can't imagine receiving that compliment.

I feel like Carrie is one of the babies. Yeah.

Well, I mean, look, Carrie, for sure, it's his first novel. His wife pulled it out of the trash.

Yes.

I love that story.

Yeah.

And he also loved Life of Chuck. I mean, he loves Mike, I think. I don't know, but I think he does.

I think he does. I think he trusts him.

I would.

And Mike Flanagan adores him.

Yeah. And I think Mike takes care of his stories.

Yeah. I mean, Mike says there's 2 ways to do a retelling of a story. You either guard each word that Stephen— specifically around King. You either guard each word with your life and do the most earnest representation of what every single page says, Or you take each piece of the book apart, and you put it together in a little different order with more behind it.

Yeah.

And he's done both.

Right.

Yeah.

And he's the best.

He's so good.

He really is.

Even Fall of the House of Usher is so good too.

Yeah.

That's on my list to watch.

That's a tough one. So that one was really good. Yeah.

Well, Life of Chuck is incredible.

Well, that's—

Like, if you haven't seen Life of Chuck, it's incredible.

I was literally— I was just about to talk about Life of Chuck. You were so amazing in that movie. Like, it makes me cry when you can see— like, even just the screenshots of you in that movie are like—

Thank you.

They really are.

I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud to be in that movie.

You should be.

And I love that it's 2 takes.

And people loved you in that. Like, across the board, people were like, oh my God.

We were talking about it on the way in here.

Yeah?

Yeah.

Yeah, we literally were. And now with that, with Life of Chuck and Carrie, you're part of the Stephen King universe now too.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I thought you were saying the Flannipans. You're part of the Flanniverse too.

Yeah, the Flanniverse, yeah.

So that's actually crazy that you're part of both now.

Yeah.

Those are massive universes. You should learn about that.

Yeah, those are big universes. But is there a Stephen King character that you would just, like, love to play?

I mean...

I have some ideas, so if you don't— Oh, you do? Yeah. That I'll pitch to you.

Okay, I'll take any of them. I'm very slutty. I'll do anything.

You're very slutty.

I'm very slutty.

We were just saying we love that word.

We were just talking about it in class. We need to bring up how much we love that word. Slut.

It's a good word.

You know, Puritans used to use that word to just mean you, like, were untidy.

Like, you were a mess.

Yeah, like your house was messy.

Your house is a slut.

So they were like, oh, that dumb slut has another—

Slut is a great word to take. Yeah, it is. It has like a— it rings in your body.

It does.

Yeah, yeah, you can feel it.

And it has a t at the end.

It's very satisfactory.

Yeah, it has all the good sounds.

It's good.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, look, Dark Tower is something that Flanagan owns and is working towards producing one day.

Hill.

I would love to be in this world.

Yeah. I think you would be a really good— I have 3.

Okay.

I thought of for you.

You have options.

So, I think, yeah, you can decide.

Okay.

Or you can play all of them.

I'll be the grown Gage as Gage gets older.

There you go.

There you go.

Grown Gage.

That could work.

I like that. I think you could be Father Callahan.

Okay.

In Salem's Lot.

Oh, okay.

I think you would be a good, like, scary priest. Like, who goes through a good arc? I think Leland from— Leland Gaunt from Needful Things.

Okay.

He's like a demonic antique.

I don't know that one. Why is everyone playing evil? What is your problem?

This one's fun, though.

I think you would be convinced. Then they kiss people playing evil.

The other thing about him is he's very charming.

Oh, yeah.

He has to charm an entire town. Okay.

There you go.

See? That's good. So he's like a demon who has to charm a whole town with his antique shop. That gives them everything they want. Oh, and that was fun. But then he sows discord among them all.

Sure.

Like, unbeknownst to them.

Do you think it's a good movie?

I think it would be a fantastic movie.

You do? Okay, good.

The book is great. Yeah. And I think the third one— Finally.

I think—

Gunslinger?

No.

No?

But sure. Try it.

I wish.

Go for it.

Do whatever you need to do.

Why not? I think you would be a good Jack Torrance.

You do?

But the book first, anyway.

it to the book because I feel like Jack Torrance in the book has, like, an arc. Like, he is so likable for most of the movie. Like, you love him. Like, he's lovable. He's like, he's like kind of tortured, but he like wants to be good. So he's trying really hard and you kind of like root for him. And then he goes through the downfall and becomes really scary. And I think you could do that like—

Oh, good.

Yeah. So we can pitch that.

What do you think?

Can we call Flanagan?

Yeah. So if y'all are listening—

Let's see if I got it in my phone.

The Shining next and redo it.

I don't think he would ever touch The Shining.

Probably not. I don't think anybody's gonna touch it.

You're the second person today to say you should play Jack Torrance.

Really?

Somebody else recently said it too.

So maybe we're all manifesting.

I think we're onto something here.

Yeah, but I was like, you know, nobody's doing that movie ever again. I mean, maybe. King didn't love it.

He didn't love it.

I think that my hope is that as Stephen King gets older, that he will want to see The Dark Tower made.

Yes.

And he will put his powers to make it happen. The problem is that all these companies own all the IPs.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

And you really have to have an act of God to bring them all together.

I know, that gets messy.

That's true.

All right, well, we'll put you in—

I didn't know we were on a Stephen King podcast. This is pretty good.

Yeah. We do love King. We're gonna keep going with that.

I think you should be Leland Gaunt then.

Okay.

For Needful Things. I think we should do that.

Final answer.

Yeah, that's my pitch.

All right, we're gonna do a GoFundMe for the claymation version of Wolf Nation.

The claymation version?

All right.

That's how much money we're gonna make.

It's crazy.

I'll give you $5.

All right, let's go.

Let's go. So we've already talked about how—

You were really excited to talk about it. I mean, you did like a deep—

Oh, she was stoked.

You did all your research is about Steven.

There's like pages and pages of like—

You could also play—

Just Steven.

She has a lot of tabs open.

I did. I actually took it down to 3 because I was, like, really going for it. But I can't pitch you 2.

Gravity. It's tough. You know?

So decisions are hard. So we talked about being, like, the weird kid growing up or feeling like the weird kid. Like, I know I felt that way most— I still feel that way at 40.

It's cool now, though.

But do you feel like it, like, kind of becomes a superpower a little bit? And if so, when did it That's a good question. Because I feel like it's mine now.

I think it absolutely is.

Yeah. I mean, you've built a business around weirdos.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's pretty great. Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I think that allows— I think the great thing about sort of identifying as somebody on the outside looking in is that you— it releases the pressure to be cool.

I don't—

I feel very— I don't feel like I have to be cool. I don't— you know, I'm not sort of like— sure, I was hung up on that, I'm sure, at some point in my life.

Everybody was. Yeah, I was going to say, we all were.

And then it also allows you to sort of, like, accept everyone. Like, you sort of see people as equals a lot. And that sort of— it levels the playing field and it just makes your life much easier.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I totally agree. And it makes you able to enjoy things like with your whole chest.

Yeah, that is for sure.

I think that's the best part of it. I feel like that's the best part of it. Is you get shamed for enjoying things.

I feel like unabashedly loving things.

I unabashedly talk about my love of Dungeons Dragons. Yeah.

Which led us into our next question.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, it's a huge part of my life. And also, like, I mean, all kinds of things, like video games.

Yeah.

And like, you know, and I don't— you know, in this business, being in Hollywood, so much status— status used to mean so much to me. And listen, and the whole— I've been on— you know, we talk about wisdom. You grow into wisdom. I used to walk past— the first movie I ever did was called Serial Mom. I used to walk past the theater and try to be recognized by the people coming out. I was like, oh, did you see a movie?

Which one?

Do I look familiar? Mom! I mean, I literally, you know, was— but I desperately wanted to be famous. And then I, you know, I ran around Hollywood and then, you know, I wanted to be— I wanted to be number one on the call sheet on big movies. Like, I've gone through this whole cycle.

Yeah, of course.

You know? And to the point where I never thought I'd work again. Like, I had lots of— I've been on every iteration of the Hollywood journey known to man.

I'm sure.

And the one I enjoy the most is when it first started and where I'm at now. And I'm having this, like, crazy resurgence in my career. as an actor and my popularity, I've never been more popular.

Yeah.

And I've— I don't know if that's the most humble thing I've ever said.

No, it's just the reality of it.

But right now, whatever's happening, it's like, it's freaking awesome.

Yeah.

Like, let's go.

Hell yeah.

It's really cool. Yeah, I find the older I get and having this resurgence, I live in a very small bubble in my hometown, and my friends Nobody gives a shit. My kids don't care. My wife certainly doesn't care. And we sort of like, we have our group of friends and we have our group of families that we're connected to. Whatever's happening right now has changed everything. And now I will get caught in public and I don't want to be caught in public.

Yeah, I could tell.

And getting caught. And like I said, I would walk around looking for attention. wanting to be famous. And now I'm like, yeah, I'm not interested.

Yeah.

In fact, I will say this. There was— we did Scream 7 premiere, and there were— they let influencers into the Scream 7 premiere. And I saw this on social media, and she's out there and she's going to hear this. This young girl, this— and what was happening is like, I was surrounded by a sea of people wanting to get in to interview me or catch video. or do all these things.

That is so overwhelming.

That's something incredibly overwhelming.

That's overwhelming. At a premiere where I want to see my friends and sort of celebrate.

Yeah.

Right?

And I did it a couple of times, and I'm like, okay, I'm done for the night. Thank you. I'm done for the night. Thank you. And they just kept coming back.

And you're allowed to say that you're done. Yeah.

You're allowed to have a break.

I'm a human.

I'm also like, I'm not working. This isn't supposed to be a job. I'm actually supposed to be celebrating. Having fun.

Yeah.

This is like the old— like, this is the best time.

Yeah.

And you're like, and I'm not having fun.

But they've packed it with— with these influencers. And at some point, this girl, this young woman caught my breath. I'm like, I am done. Like, I snapped at her.

Yeah. You don't want to be pushed around. You're a human.

And then she posts exactly what you expect, which is like, I was so excited to meet Matthew Lillard and he was a total fuck asshole.

And it's like, it's one bad moment.

I take full— she's out there. I take full responsibility.

But it's a bad moment.

I was super rude.

Yeah.

But I was super done.

Yeah, that's human.

Yes. And you were— I was so kind for so long going, I am— you guys, I'm done. I'm done. I'm—

And you made it clear. When you make a clear boundary—

My kids start getting in the way.

Oh, your kids are there too?

Yes. And they're like—

See, that's another layer.

And they see me get angry once. And like I said—

So your kids know.

And they know.

They're like, you're pushing him.

So if that young lady's out there, I apologize. I was a dick. She was right and posted on something and I saw it the next day. I'm like, that sucks.

But I feel like that's become a thing that people try to get a rise out of people now and get them in a bad moment just to be like, hey, they're an asshole. And it's like, no, they're just a human and having a human moment.

Yeah, everyone has a bad day.

And it's like the person who posted that also has— I can guarantee you she has also had a moment where she's been a dick.

Oh, no doubt.

She didn't want that on the internet.

But nobody—

So...

I do not know why we're talking about this. I don't know how we got to this moment. I don't know why we got here. And I don't know if I liked it or if I didn't like it. But I will say I owe that young woman an apology.

All right.

Well, that's nice of you.

There you go.

That is nice of you. You're big for that.

I love it.

Now I wanna do your chart.

I know.

Do you believe in astrology?

Not really, but I don't disbelieve in it.

All right.

Like, there are things I'm like, yeah, I don't believe in that at all.

Yeah.

But I do think that my dad and I were born 2 days apart, and we were on very similar cycles for a long time.

That makes total sense.

He would have success, I had a massive success.

Okay.

I would sort of start to struggle, he would start to struggle.

Interesting. That is interesting.

Has to do with Jupiter.

Is that what?

Has to do with Jupiter. When you're struggling and when you're not.

So it's reversed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Look at that.

You know? You have a lot of eclectic talents.

Thank you.

She does. Yeah, yeah.

Why don't we go to D&D?

Yeah, 'cause we were just talking about D&D.

Great, yeah.

Yeah.

So you've said before that sitting around a tabletop gaming table—

Is the best way to spend a life.

One of the best ways to spend a life?

Not one of.

It is the best way to spend a life.

What happens at the table that you believe we could be missing elsewhere? Like, what makes it the best?

Yeah, you— they're my favorite people. The people I play with are my closest friends.

I love that.

That's cool.

They are— I started, you know, I played as a kid. I quit in, like, you know, junior high school when most kids quit. And then my roommate in acting school when I went to New York had D&D books. And I was 21 years old. I'm like, dude, we're 21. We're supposed to be getting hammered and doing chicks.

But let's do Dungeons.

I'm like, why do you have this? This is lame.

You're so weird.

He's like, bro. I'm like, bro, dude, bro. Dude, bro.

Bro.

Bro bars. Let's get some lettuce. Let's get some lettuce. Some lettuce.

It's so hilarious.

Because we were still freaking acting school kids.

Of course.

And he's like, I like to play D&D. I'm like, oh, that's awesome. Fucking awesome. And I said it in class one day, and my buddies were like, oh, that's cool. We should play.

Hell yeah.

And after a Super Bowl one year, we went to Circle in the Square, which is where we all went to school. It's a big Broadway theater house on 50th and Broadway. It's an incredible theater school, by the way. If anyone's out there looking for a theater school, I'm always pitching our school because it's fantastic. Anyways, we had access to the lobby. We started playing one night at like 9:00 at night. We rolled up characters and we started to play. We left when the sun came up at 6:00 in the morning.

I love that.

That's awesome.

And we have been playing since I was 21, and I'm 56 years old.

Wow.

The longest campaign we ever played was Wow.

7 years? I like that a lot.

I love that. But, you know, I play— we've played for years, and you sit around, you're telling stories, which is as old as time.

Yeah.

With actors who are lovely and smart.

And creative.

And creative. And everyone's invested. So, yes, you're talking in voices.

Oh my God, I love that.

Yes, you know. You're playing with your whole chest.

Yeah.

And it's just the best, man. And we laugh hard.

Hell yeah.

And we, you know, we eat pizza. We don't drink. We don't smoke weed. Like, we don't— we're just not—

You become me.

Huh?

You become me.

I totally become you. Our insides are pure.

Look at that. Just a yucky mouth.

But yeah, but it's just the best.

I love that.

My favorite thing.

I've never played it, and I've always thought that I was somebody who should have played it.

Yeah. There's still time.

I was going to say, you still can.

I need to start doing it.

100%.

Because I would love it. I love it. Like, it is right up my alley.

It's also like, there are no phones. Like, you remove your responsibility to be a dad or a husband or a working— Connected to anyone else. Or whatever.

You get lost in this world.

And you get to— it is the story of good versus evil.

Yeah.

And like, you're rising up and doing heroic things and vanquishing the evil.

And it's great. It's like being in a real fantasy book. I love that. It is.

That's so cool.

Do you like fantasy books? I do love fantasy books.

What's your favorite fantasy book?

I'm reading right now, and I'm obsessed with it, Ninth House by Leigh Bardugo.

I don't know it.

It's a trilogy.

Oh, yeah.

I saw it. Yeah, yeah. I've seen it.

It is so good. It's like secret societies in Yale and magic.

I've heard really good things about that.

Oh, it's delicious. I love it.

Can I tell you my favorite writer right now?

Yeah.

In all the weirdos?

Yeah.

Christopher Buellmann. He wrote Black Tongue Thief.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. And he just— and then he came out with The Daughter's War, and his third one's about to drop. He and I did the Renaissance Fair in upstate New York in a suite in New York.

That's badass.

And we were roommates. Um, and he went on to do the Ren Faire for years, started writing, and has now become incredibly successful.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Good for him.

Hell yeah. That's sick. That's rad.

I love that. That's my reading recommendation of the day.

Good. I love those.

Yeah, we're always recommending books. That filtered in nicely.

There you go.

It did.

All right, can we talk about Scream? Scream, the original, 1996, the year I was born. You play one of the most— I know, I know that hurts. I saw the twitch.

A little eye twitch.

Listen, this was a lot of fun, but I have to go now. My phone's ringing in my pocket. It's time to take it.

Sorry.

No, it's okay.

But you play it.

I'm gonna— here's my hope.

Tell me.

My hope is that you ask a question I've never been asked before in 30 years.

I hope so.

We have a few questions about it, so maybe one of us will hit it.

I don't know if it's this first one, but maybe we'll hit it.

One of mine, I think, might be it. No.

I don't know. Okay, good.

I'm being very— I have hubris right now.

I had hubris earlier.

You're self-identifying in the moment.

Yeah, we can't help it.

I have bitchiness right now.

Yeah, I'm preparing everybody right now.

Okay, good.

But you first.

All right, so obviously you play Stu. When did you realize that Stu had become something people would still be talking about all these years later? Did it ever hit you at a certain point?

No.

And has anybody ever asked you that before?

No, they haven't.

Hey!

Oh!

Pretty good.

First one off the bat.

Okay. Hey!

Okay.

Period.

Yeah, pretty good. I mean, I still don't— I'm still not sure how we're here.

Really?

Yeah, I'm still not sure how this all happened.

It must be surreal.

Yeah.

But it's not even surreal. It's like— surreal would mean that you were like, you deeply think about— I am just— I'm like, what?

That's Amy?

Yeah, it's weird. It's weird. It's like, um, I don't know. How do you explain it? It's like you're dating someone and then they become the president of the United States.

Yeah.

And you're like, this is so weird.

I have a mindfuck.

How about that? We used to make out and now they're the president of the United States. Like, that's weird.

Yeah.

What a scenario.

Yeah.

I just pictured that, really. That's a weird scenario. Somebody I made out with becoming president.

I've seen that person at their worst and their best.

Yeah.

And that's what it is. I mean, it is this thing.

I thought you were going to say naked. I saw that first. I thought you were going to say naked too.

I was going to. And then I didn't want to be creepy.

When you went the different way, I was like, whoa, that was me being creepy.

So I know I felt that way too.

My instinct was way worse.

That was your instinct?

And I don't know the weirdos that well, but they don't need their weird of me.

No.

They don't need all of me. Yeah. So it is a little— it's just really strange in that You have to imagine, at that time when it came out, as we were making it, Wes Craven had made a bunch of movies. Most of them, in that time, had started to flop. And it just felt like another horror movie that starred 2 people that were on television, Neve Campbell and Courteney Cox. And that was never a thing. It was not— People didn't cross over. You were either a TV actor or a film actor.

Yeah.

Especially at that time.

And I was a film actor. I'm like, what are these TV people doing here? This is all going to be shit.

Infiltrating.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that, you know, one of the things that— I was just talking to Flanagan last night, actually, on the way after we had finished screening.

That's a really cool sentence.

Yeah, yeah. But we were talking about the movie, and I said to him that the crazy thing about it, I think if you take any of those people out in terms of the casting, the movie may not work.

Yeah.

Yeah. I really think that Skeet is perfectly cast. And Campbell's perfectly cast. Jamie Kennedy. David Arquette. Even Earl Brown, who plays Courtney's camera guy. Everyone along the way really works in this really crazy way. They really do.

Yeah.

I think if you take me out, or Drew out, or whatever, Henry Winkler. I mean, it all kind of comes together perfectly in a moment of synchronicity.

Yeah.

That— and the mask. I mean, the mask came out of nowhere. They found the mask.

So perfect.

It was like this little place in North Carolina. The rumor, the legend is that he saw it on a tech scout. I don't think that's true, personally. Interesting.

Yeah.

I haven't even heard that before. Yeah.

He got— what I remember, we were shooting in Santa Rosa outside the high school, and we were talking about the mask because he was showing us, I think, like a cut of the opening sequence with Drew.

And— Such a good sequence.

It's an incredible sequence for multiple reasons, which I'm happy to talk about. But he was like, I think that they were going to shut down the movie. So they were going to shut down the movie because they weren't sure about it. And then they rushed it, shot that sequence, opening sequence, and then sent it to Miramax, and they kept the movie alive.

Oh, wow.

Because they were going to shut it down because they're like, we don't think this works.

That's crazy.

Can you imagine? Yeah.

If you just never had Scream? Yeah.

Whoa. Yeah.

It's like a parallel universe.

Yeah. That would be a butterfly effect.

Yeah, absolutely.

That would be bad, I think.

But that was—

that opening sequence is so crazy because Jason Drew Barrymore was one of the biggest stars in the world.

You think she's gonna be the—

She's on the poster.

Yeah, like front and center.

And they murder her. Like, one of the most brutal, brilliant openings of film ever.

Oh yeah.

And, you know, they kill her.

And so you're like, where are we going from here?

And now you're like, I have no idea what's gonna happen next. And it was also, the movie was self-referential in a time when movies were trying to be timeless.

Yeah.

Because they wanted— because There was no such— DVDs and VHS were just coming around. And before that, before this media, you would try to make a movie timeless because you wanted it to play again on TV because that's when you got paid again. So people were like, don't reference anything. Don't make it modern because we want it to live. So if they show it in 10 years on Channel 4, it will still work. The movie will still be relevant.

Yeah.

But this is, like, so '90s.

But then Kevin Williamson came along and was like, I'm gonna flip the script.

Yeah.

I'm gonna be so '90s.

It's kind of crazy. Yeah.

I loved it.

So, yeah. So I don't really— I have— it's like having your ex-girlfriend be the president.

I think that's the best— yeah.

Yeah. I think that's the best way to look at it. What do you think Stu— I'm very curious about this. What do you think Stu wanted out of that friendship with Billy? Do you think he looked at the friendship with Billy the same way that Billy looked at it? I don't know. Not really.

It's not something— You know what's funny? I never, never been asked that.

Hey, 2 in a row.

2 for 2. All right.

I don't really think that way.

Yeah.

Because he's not real. You know he's not real.

So you don't think about that kind of— I don't.

He's not real.

But I thought you did. You know he's not real.

So we're not all gonna die today?

Scooby-Doo is not either.

Wow, you just ruined everything for everyone. You definitely ruined my whole life.

This is the second time we end our friendship here live.

Yeah, he's got a cat.

Morbid.

2 strikes.

I don't really think— I mean, it's like, I don't know.

I mean, I can make stuff up.

Like cats, what is happening? Yeah.

No, I'd rather know it, like, the honest.

Yeah. It's also like, Just so we're clear, it's 30 years ago. I've— it's like, what was your first kiss like when you were 12? I don't remember. I guess it was good.

Sure.

12's very young to have a kiss.

That's very young.

But like, at 15, you're like, I remember my first kiss.

Like, I was 12 or 13. Were you 12?

But was it like a—

Truth or dare? Just a smooch, not like a makeout.

Oh yeah. I remember in— I was like 16. 8th grade. This is 8th grade.

Mine was summer going into 7th grade.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

That was so true.

Yeah. Did you see that face? Hey, you judged me.

You said 12. You're a slut. I know.

Here we come. Here we go.

There's a word. Don't bring it back.

You're untidy.

The word of this episode is slut.

You're untidy.

You're untidy, Gab. You're a mess.

Untidy.

Yeah, you're untidy.

Instead of using, like—

Yeah, you are so untidy.

Oh, my gosh. You're so untidy.

Almost unkempt. Oh, you're untidy with your makeouts.

Yeah.

How did we get into this sloppiness? And your sloppiness.

Sloppiness. Yeah.

So, I was thinking—

I almost went really crass.

You should have.

You should have. And I want you to know tonight when I go home and I lay my head on the pillow, I am going to congratulate— I'm going to say, you did good today.

Good job.

Hold him back.

Because you almost went too far.

All right. I'm proud of you.

Too far.

Because I don't know where you were going to go.

Because Mr. Violence would have stepped in.

We don't—

We'll see you, Mr. Violence.

I'm literally changing your name in my phone.

We don't get offended easily.

So you found good—

We have one editor that we have that isn't in the room with us that we are constantly like, John, I'm so sorry that we just said that.

I met him in—

I'm so sorry.

I've only met him in person once.

What are you talking about? Yeah, how do you not have a friendship with your editor?

Well, we have like a friendship via the microphone, but I don't even know where he lives.

What?

But I— but he came to an event.

Is he going to edit this?

No, no, he edits a different podcast.

Yeah, we have different podcasts.

How many podcasts do you have?

3. 3.

Jesus.

Yeah, I was like, how many do we have?

I know, it's like, what?

Which one do you like the best?

Honestly, they're all like—

I like them for different reasons.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What are the— what are the other 2 pitches?

Um, one is called Scream, and we recap horror movies and kind of just like discuss them.

Yeah.

And then one is called The Rewatcher, and we rewatch shows and discuss them.

We did Buffy the Vampire Slayer. We're doing True Blood right now.

Did you do the whole series?

Yeah.

Oh God. Yeah. Brutal.

Yeah.

Got rough in the end.

That one was brutal. Yeah. Yeah. True Blood is fun as hell, man.

True Blood is great.

That's just batshit crazy.

Yeah. Have you seen that?

Mm-mm.

Please watch it.

Watch it and then listen.

I will never watch it.

It's so fun.

I like that you were honest. So you're like, I'm not gonna do that.

I mean, I respect that, but it's really fun.

Never. I, I haven't. I'm not really— it's shocking how many shows I have not watched.

I mean, same.

That makes sense though, because it's got to be— is it tough for you to watch shows?

I just don't like— I just don't like it. It's like a cook doesn't want to come home and cook.

That's what I mean. Right. What about Widow's Bay?

And, huh? Have you watched Widow's Bay?

I do. I like— I sort of like modern shows. Widow's Bay is beautiful. One of my favorite things to do because I travel so much is I love having a show to share with my wife.

Yeah.

And we're empty nesters.

Like a grounding.

And like together, like we'll sit there and watch— like we're watching Lioness right now.

Oh my God.

And I am— I fucking love it. And I'm like, but I really think I— I love the two of us hanging out and like going, let's do another one.

Yeah, I love that.

I really love it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's one of my favorite pastimes is watching TV with my husband.

Yeah.

We watch a lot of reality TV.

I don't do that.

See, we're in a better spot.

No, no, it's not that. I just, I don't have the patience for people being— there is no show in which people are brutal or rude or bitches. And I just, I can't watch it.

I love it. I get too angry.

It's like being at the zoo.

Oh God, yeah.

There was Housewives here today and I literally almost lost my shit.

Really?

Yeah.

My wife loves them all.

Oh, I gotta talk to her.

Yeah, yeah, she'll— she would love to come in.

Oh yeah, she would hate it.

She would not.

I feel like she would hate it.

She would not.

You would not invite her?

She would not like this.

We wouldn't have to record. We could just hang out. That's okay.

Yeah, you could just chat. Cool.

Come to my house. You guys are always welcome to California. When you come out to San Diego to do San Diego Comic-Con, which we're doing next year.

Yes, we've already announced.

Come out, hang out.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right, great.

Yeah, we're just gonna show up at your door and be like, you invited us.

You don't fucking scare me.

He's like, I invited you.

I literally invited you. If I didn't like you, I don't know your fucking name. Like, I was serious. That might be a problem.

I actually don't.

But come to my house.

What if we look vaguely different and we're like, we're Alayna Nash and you said we could stay with you?

I'll be like, who?

Yeah, exactly.

See?

See?

Yeah.

And then put the rope on his neck. Oh, Scream.

All right, where are we?

Um, so I think we finished.

Did you just get that tattoo?

Uh, it's more recent. I think I got this—

Was that one—

6 months ago.

Oh.

Was it the same time as the ghost?

Wait, wait, that's new.

Yeah.

And why do you have a fucking pumpkin on your arm?

Because I love pumpkins.

You love Halloween.

I have a ghost too.

Yeah, you got the ghost when I got the perfume bottle.

It's in a weird spot.

It's really in a weird spot for me.

I don't know if I can turn that way. Is that weirder?

I'm dead. We go to tattoo artists that are identical twins.

In Salem, Massachusetts.

It's that kind of weird of us.

You two are strange.

Yeah, and unusual.

I don't know. The pumpkins.

Yeah.

A choice.

Yeah.

I love Halloween.

I have a witch.

Yeah. Yeah, she's a full-blown witch.

I have a witch right here.

Oh, you do?

She's riding a broomstick.

Oh my God. You're very witchy.

Yeah. I think we are witches.

I have a witch.

Who's that?

Is that a witch?

Her name's Esme.

Yeah, she's just a gal. Yeah.

Very punk rock.

Thank you.

Yeah, punk rock witches.

Hell yeah.

We've been talking for 4 hours already.

But you're having fun, right?

Yeah, I'm loving every second of it. I'm sorry about your capacity for—

Oh no, we can do this forever.

Editing down.

No. That's his job. Okay.

Yeah. All right, smart girl.

Our Jack the Ripper series was 72 pages long of notes.

It was 8 hours of content.

Yeah.

We didn't film it in one day though.

No. Yeah.

All right, scream.

You know, but scream.

As long as you're still here.

Yes.

Still here.

Okay.

So another one. I don't know if you're gonna— if you're gonna have the same answer though, now that you said that. Do you think—

Did I finish that whole thought?

I think you did.

Okay, good.

Because I don't remember where we were.

I was like, I don't really think— like, think about that friendship. Why? Like, do you think about their friendship?

Oh, because he's not real.

I mean, maybe in that moment I did. I think he's got that, you know, I'm far too sensitive And then definitely, you know, listen, people are like, were they gay? People call us the first husbands of horror.

I don't think they were.

They weren't. And that was never discussed. But we do say that they're gay characters. The reason we say that is that, you know, there's a kid out there right now struggling with who they are. And there are so many kids out there that identify with these characters. And while these characters, you know, are just a character we did. There are people that, you know, have these characters tattooed on their face— on their face— our faces on their body.

Maybe they do have body piercings.

You know, there's all kinds of like that relationship. And if some kid out there is struggling with their own identity and who they are, and if for some reason us calling ourselves the first Husbands of Horror makes an impact and makes them feel seen and empowers them, then we're the fucking first Hell yeah. Yeah.

Or whatever you want to say.

And my favorite part is, like, nobody can take that away from us.

No.

Yeah.

It's our characters.

Yeah.

You know? And in the world we're living in right now, like, we could use a little more, like, I see you, gay kid. We love you.

I love that. Hell yeah.

I love that a lot.

Yeah.

And I loved Billy and Stu's relationship.

Yeah, it was great.

I always thought it was, like, very— like, I was like, yeah, like, friends should be like that.

Yeah, they should definitely murder each other.

Yeah, obviously.

Wouldn't they?

Yeah, of course.

Like, why are more people doing that? It's funny how many people are not out there burying the body.

It's called a ride or die.

Yeah, exactly.

Hello.

Well, it was like, I think, because people will— people will always, like, harp on, like, how physical they were with each other.

Yeah, yeah.

But I love that part of it, that they, like—

That's funny. That was all me.

I believe that.

I mean, we've seen that here today.

I am, like, literally—

You're a touchy-feely person.

And I don't think that I was really— I mean—

Just natural.

I'm, like, sitting on his shot. Yeah, it's weird.

It feels right.

That's probably in your astrological chart too. I'll look at it. Touchy?

Yeah. It's nice to be pet.

What do you need for me to give— to give— to get a reading?

Your birth time and where you were born.

I'm on it.

All right, cool.

Get it. Get it and bring it to us.

Yeah.

So, I think the other ones for Scream, you've probably been asked before. So, we're gonna move on to another one.

Uh, 5-minute sex dreams. Do you wanna do a speed round?

We're gonna do what, for Scream?

Yeah, yeah, speed round.

I'm scared.

Speed round?

I don't know if we have a speed round.

Well, we don't.

I'm saying, like, we have other questions.

Yeah, yeah, we have other questions. You want to ask the Scream question?

Yeah, we can do one more.

Go for it.

I want to know, when you first read for the part, did you get something about Stu that wasn't necessarily written on the page outside of being touchy-feely?

I, I read for— you what?

I said outside of being touchy-feely.

Outside of being touchy-feely. Every time you do that, I'm gonna read that.

I appreciate it.

Um, the— I, I originally read for Oh, I didn't know that. And the casting director's like, you know, Wes Craven's coming back in, like, 2 hours. I would like you to read this.

Really?

Yeah.

And they're like, you're never gonna make out with Neve Campbell.

They said that to you?

No.

Oh.

Like, what?

I was like, that's mean.

Cut to, we did make out.

I was just gonna say, jokes on them.

But yes, we— but the, um— but I read, like, 2 hours later, and in the room, Wes Craven was like, I'd like you to come do the movie.

Hell yeah.

So he sort of gave me the part in the room.

So you think you just figured it out, like, on the spot?

Yeah, I think that it was— I was in that moment, and you watch the film, full of energy. I was like, sort of, you know, there was nothing little about the role for me. And whatever he saw in that reading, he responded to. I don't know.

Yeah.

That's so cool.

Yeah.

I love it. I think you're the perfect Stu. I can't picture anybody else playing Stu.

It's true.

And I can't picture you playing Billy, though.

No, I don't either. I mean, listen, that was a totally— that was not me.

Yeah.

Like I said, any— you pull any of us out, I think the whole thing falls apart.

Yeah.

I think you're—

now I can kind of see that even better. Yeah.

All right, Five Nights at Freddy's.

Yeah, Five Nights at Freddy's. Let's get into it. Because that's such a fun one. Such a fun one.

Yeah, yeah.

It— okay, so do you think William Afton? And I don't know if you think this way now.

I don't. I don't.

I don't think he's evil.

I think you've already answered this. All right, so let me go on to this one.

No, go ahead and ask it.

I was going to say, do you think he believes he's evil?

No, I don't believe anyone in the history of films believes they're evil.

I like that.

I think that's a great answer. Everyone has— you have to— no, but you can't act on an instinct that's like, I'm just going to hurt people. Darth Vader has a reason for destroying the universe, for running, owning the universe, right?

Yeah.

And everyone has a reason. It doesn't mean that they're good reasons or justifiable, but you have to believe in the reason.

Yeah. I mean, Billy said it's scarier when there's no motive.

Yeah, but there's always a motive. Even Billy had a motive.

I was going to say.

But he's like, his mother, you know, your mother was a slut.

Yes, she was an unkempt woman.

She was untidy.

She was not clean.

She was not clean. She had a very slutty house.

A very slutty house.