Transcript of Morbid Book Club: Killing The Boogeyman by Richard Chizmar New

This super special book club episode is brought to you by Ashley. Now is the time to write the newest chapter in your home story. As the largest furniture store brand in North America, Ashley can help you create a comfortable, functional, and might I add, very stylish home that you can feel proud of. And all in a price range that works for you. With lifestyle-driven designs, you don't have to choose between being practical and being stylish. Visit your local Ashley store or head to ashley.com to find your style. Hey weirdos, I'm Ash.

I'm Alayna.

I'm Rich.

And this is a very special episode of Morbid.

It is. We have a special guest, Richard Chizmar. Welcome to the show.

Welcome.

Hello, thanks for having me.

Thank you for coming.

Yeah.

We've just been hanging and chatting for a little while.

Already great vibes to start off.

The vibes are immaculate here.

I feel like I've known you guys for a long time already.

Right?

Yeah, we're colleagues.

And I feel like we've been trading arcs back and forth for a little while. I feel like— so we're getting to know each other here. And you have a new book in the series, the Boogeyman series, Killing the Boogeyman. It's coming out October 6th. I've got to read this ahead of time, and I feel very lucky.

I'm jealous. I love this.

Thank you so much.

I'm gonna steal your ARC. I love stealing your ARCs.

You can steal the ARC. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it's awesome. And it's such a good conclusion to the series.

It's kind of crazy.

I know. Seeing them all right here.

It must be to see them all lined up, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Especially cuz there was never supposed to be a second book.

Oh, really?

No, never.

Oh, really?

Nope.

This was just supposed to stop at the first one?

Yeah.

I mean, I would've been sad.

Writing that myself for one book was enough.

Yeah.

And I actually remember telling my, my editor and my agent, I'm like, That's it. That's it.

That's it. That's all you got.

Do it again.

And I'll be honest, even though the first one was like a surprise hit, no one was like banging down my door saying, we need a second one.

We need a second one.

And then I was mowing the lawn one day, as crazy as that sounds, and like in a 5-minute span, I had the idea for the entire first chapter of Becoming the Boogeyman, which ends with a— and I never say this about my work because I envy those writers who are like, I can't wait till you read my next book. It's great.

Oh, yeah.

Because I'm always like, well, I'm like, hopefully you like it. If you decide you hate it, I hope you don't figure that out until you spent the $29 on it.

You guys have that in common.

So I get my royalty. Yeah. Just for the first time, I just knew that chapter was good, and it ended on that twist that connected so strongly to the first book.

I love that.

So I remember thinking, if anyone can read that first chapter and not if they're standing in the store reading it and they read it and they can't— they don't take it up to the register, I'll be shocked.

Yeah.

So it just fit that neatly. So I was like, okay, I have to write it. And then just through discussions with my editor, he's like, yeah, it's got to be a trilogy. These always have to be a trilogy. Nice.

You got to.

You got to.

Yeah.

I loved it. That first chapter immediately hooked me, and just the idea of chasing the boogeyman got me right away because I picked it up in the fiction section, but as I'm reading it, looking through it, I was like, is this real? This feels real. And the more I read it, the more I was like, you made that feel so real. That's several times. I knew, again, I got it in the fiction section. I knew it was not real, but several times I was like, is this real? I was like, any part of this is real? Because you nailed the true crime book vibes for that.

I love true crime. So that was the thing. It's like, I've always thought if there was a local case and it was the right thing and I felt like I could add something to the stories and, you know, in a dignified way and honor the victims and the survivors, you know, maybe I'd do it because I actually kind of enjoy research. Yeah. Even though I write books where I just, you know, I don't have to do research or just make it up.

There's always something to research.

But yeah, I always thought that if that came and then when I sat down to write this story, I thought, you know what, I'm going to write this. It was the photos, I think, that did it for a lot of people.

The photos. That's what kept making me go back and Googling whether this was real because they gave out so real, and it felt like a true crime book. Yeah, they were so true to you. Oh, I bet.

And you know how most photos in, in a true crime book, they're all in one spot?

Yeah, they're always—

Which I don't like.

It was like in the middle.

They make sense. I know it's cheaper to print, and they put it on the glossy paper sometimes, so it's nice.

So you know it's there.

But I always find myself flipping back and forth because I want to see what this person looks like.

Yep.

Um, whether it's the good guy, the bad guy, the detective, you know, the senator who gave the press conference, whoever it is, I want to see what they look like, right? When, when I want to see what that crime scene looks like, you know? And in the good true crime books, they're, you know, the crime scenes aren't bloody or gory. They're just like trampled down grass behind a shed. Yeah, but it adds so much to that moment when you're reading about it. Yeah, exactly. So I knew I wanted photos and I knew I wanted to put them at the end of each chapter.

Yeah, I loved that. Yeah, because that, that's exactly how I am. I end up like flipping through and being like, what does this person look like? Okay, I'm going to go back. Yeah, you got to like remind yourself throughout the book that you had them all condensed into each thing.

And I think it gave that immediate reinforcement that, hey, What I just read, was that— because who's dumb enough to take a bunch of fake photos? I am.

And they look real. It's hard to stage those kind of photos and not have them look like, you know what I mean? Like really fake. And I was like, these look too real to be fake.

That must have been so fun to do.

They were so much fun. And that's the thing. Again, most photos in true crime books, they're not exciting. No. So that was the goal, is to have them be—

Like very mundane. Yeah.

Right, right.

Yeah. You know, which is hard when it's lifelong friends, you know, dressed up in thrift clothes, trying to be serious, to be the detective. And you're like, stop it, stop flexing your jaw, you know, stop sucking in your stomach. Yeah. So, you know, the photos were the most fun part. There's times when— I mean, my son and I took most of them, but we had, you know, some of the actors from the short films we've done together, you know, some of them came back. They had wardrobes, so they were cheap, thank God. And I love it. And willing to, to do it. And, uh, but the photos are almost the most fun.

They are. Because I feel like any— like, I, I'm like, oh, I'm jealous. Like, I want to take photos for my books now, even though, like, I'm like, that's so fun.

Yes, you can.

Because just to be able to visualize it too, along with it, I feel like that's such an added bonus too. Definitely.

Well, the original idea for Chasing the Boogeyman was to Blair Witch the audience completely.

Yes, we, we heard about that, and I'm so sad that you couldn't.

Yeah, I mean, it really quickly— I was, I was thrilled that Simon you know, that S. Lessinger Gallery bought it. So don't get me wrong. But then I was really bummed once I had those phone conferences with the legal department and they were telling me, you know, it wasn't even like a close call. It wasn't like, well, we're going to think about it. It was just like, Rich, no, absolutely. You'll get sued. We'll get sued. Everybody. It's a no-win.

It's a great talk.

Thanks.

Yeah. I'm just like, but I have plans. And they're like, no. I'm like, but I have a fake website to post online that looks like it got updated to like the mid-'90s and then it just stopped.

That'd be so sick. I have fake newspaper Yeah.

I had all this stuff planned. And what's funny is, is ultimately I wanted to script, like, a 3-part podcast.

Oh.

And have someone—

Which would have gone along perfect.

Oh, my gosh.

Yes.

And I would be one of the guests, and the detective would be a guest, and some of my friends. And I'm just like, that would be fun.

That'd be great promo, too.

It really would.

Yeah.

I still might do that one day.

I was going to say, I feel like you could.

Yeah.

You just waste time.

Just put some money aside for when you get sued, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's fine.

You know?

Like, that's all.

Just be prepared.

'Cause as someone who was around for that Blair Witch original marketing, like, I try to tell— I've told Ash before.

I'm so jealous.

That was the best marketing, and we'll never get that kind of marketing back. 'Cause it was, like, right in the beginning of, like, when the internet was exploding. Yeah.

I was gonna say, damn internet. But that's what it is.

It's, like, too fast.

There was nothing but pluses back then for the internet.

Yeah.

And that was— and I remember looking at that Blair Witch website and being like, this is real. Like, I'm looking at real footage.

Oh, yeah.

When they did the documentary. Yeah.

That sealed it for, you know, I mean, I'm gullible as it is.

I was so gullible.

Oh, I would've been too.

I'm a believer. Like, you know, my friends will tell you, you know, it's like Rich hasn't changed. He's still, you know, he thinks he's seen Bigfoot. You know, he believes in the Loch Ness Monster even though he's never been anywhere near there.

No, same, same.

Aliens. You're in your place.

Yeah.

He's seen 'em. He sensed 'em. He believes in 'em.

Yes.

Yeah.

You're in a safe place here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I figured.

Yeah.

I love it.

And even if I'm not, I'm like, I can't pretend I'm anything other. Remember the childlike enthusiasm we talked about? That's just me.

That's just there.

Hell yeah.

So yeah. So for me, it was natural and I wanted to— the documentary for Blair Witch kind of reinforced it. And I just thought, if I have all this supplemental material that goes beyond the photos in the book, I'm like, I feel like I could. And even my son, who's not the most— my oldest son, who's a writer, who's not the most logical of of guys. Even he really early on was like, Dad, you know, you can't do that. You're like going to drive down property values in Edgewood and stuff. And I'm like, you know, Mr. Mature. I'm like, I don't care.

I feel like it's fun.

I can do what I want. I'm like, but I'm going to scare everyone. I'm like, we're going to hear— people are scared to walk their dogs and stuff at night.

Yeah, that's actually really fun. Okay, stop trying to put a damper on my thing.

We're going to ruin people's peace.

That's what it is. Exactly. I'm like, they're going to start a neighborhood watch because of me.

You're like, have you heard of a prank?

Okay.

Yes.

I'm like, what do you We could put on masks and scare people.

Yeah.

Everybody's getting too serious.

We'll get shot. I'm like, really?

See, that's why things are no fun anymore. It's true.

I'm like, come on. I think readers too would appreciate that kind of thing because I feel like readers love that kind of stuff, any kind of interactive, really immersing themselves in the book. So I feel like it would work. I think so.

Most of them had nothing but good memories from the book, but there were those who got pissed off at me.

Because they thought it was real.

Because I tricked them.

You tricked them.

I'm like, I thought that's what I'm supposed to do.

That's so fun in it.

It's in the fiction section. It's not in the true crime section.

Well, it says a novel.

That showed me. That was the first thing that I looked and I was like, oh, a novel. That tells me it's not.

My editor, who was amazing at his job and is just a really good guy, this guy named Ed Schlesinger, he told me really early on, he's like, we got to put this disclaimer in the front.

Yeah.

And I was like, I'm like low maintenance, but this was like the only time I was like, no, I'm dying on the cell. I'm like, if you want it in there, you have to write it. So he did.

You're like, here everybody goes ruining my fun again.

Yeah, I did. I pouted. It's like I get this wonderful book sale for this weird book that I wrote about myself in, and somehow I'm still pouting. But that was it.

Yeah.

But yeah, I'm like, so what I want to say when they get mad at me is, hey, It says a novel right on the front.

It does.

And there is a disclaimer. But what I knew from my own personal experience is no one reads those.

No, that's true. They get right to the juicy stuff. Yeah.

A note to the reader. And as soon as you start, this is a work, and you're like, whatever. I love the fact that you thought it. And lots of people said that. They're like, I knew it was a novel going in, but by chapter 3, I was Googling.

That was the thing. Because again, you get it in the fiction section. You're not getting it in the true crime section. So you know where you got it from.

Right.

I knew where I got it from.

Right.

And it still was going and being like, are there parts of this that's real? And like, I'm missing something? Like, that's how real it felt.

Well, I love that. I love hearing that. And I tried to write it like a true crime book. You know, I tried to write it very, you know, a matter of fact in places because you're not trying to, you know, glamorize anything.

Yeah, right.

You're trying to, again, you know, lend dignity to, uh, to what happened and the people who who remain and all that. And yeah, so I tried to— there were times where, you know, I find myself getting a little too dramatic or fictiony, and I'm like, dial it back.

You got to pull the prose back. Yeah.

So yeah, I mean, it, you know, who knows, 3 books is enough, but you never know. I'm not giving away anything.

All right. I love that.

You never know. I just, I always hear people who are like, well, it was meant to be, you know, 6, and now there's 14. I'm like, I know, it's probably somewhere right now rolling outside going, no, It's true.

As someone who is also on book 3 in a series, everybody's like, there has to be another one. I'm like, I don't know.

And I'm— there has to be another one.

I know. I don't— I'm not—

I'm holding you to it, girl.

There has to be another one. No one said it. No one said it's a trilogy like they did with mine, which is them giving me a real strong hint. Rich, be done.

You've got to be done here. I also loved the little things, especially in Becoming the Boogeyman. Where it was like a text from Stephen King. And I was like, this is fun. I was like, this is fun to read.

Again, I tried to make it as real life as possible. So it's like, it's my idiot friends who I love dearly who are texting me. It's my sisters. I make reference to my one sister, Nancy, who is not subtle. There's never a single text. There's always 4 or 6 or 14.

That's how I text you.

Yeah.

Just block.

Yep.

And then there's my friends who were yelling at me because I don't return phone calls. So I tried to— that was the most fun with becoming the boogeyman is I could drag myself kind of through the wringer.

Right?

Yeah.

I was like, the press was ripping me. Half of my hometown loved me. The other half was like, what a pain in the ass. He's probably in on this. Look, he bought a big house because of the blood money.

I was just like, you're like, yeah, let's go.

The internet hated me. So that was fun.

That is fun. It's kind of like, it feels like it would be cathartic.

Almost like exposure therapy.

Yeah. Yeah. It was. I'm like, I know half these people are thinking it anyway.

And you're like, you can't be as mean to me as I can be mean to me.

Let me write it first so I'll make it worse.

You just sit back and watch.

Kind of brilliant.

Well, and going back to the boogeyman thing, the boogeyman is one of those monsters that I think everybody has a different idea of what the boogeyman is, but they all know what the boogeyman is. Where did your personal, personal relationship with the boogeyman begin? Wow.

Probably like as soon as I was old enough to, you know, have dreams and just— I've always been, you know, I've always been the storyteller in the group. I've always been the one who really enjoyed scaring everyone. Like I wrote about, you know, walking up the gravel driveway of the Myers Field. I really did tell everyone scary stories and then I would wait for that strategic moment, look over my shoulder, scream, and take off running. But the thing is, is the reason I told those stories, because I was scared to death.

Yep.

So I'm like, you know what, I'm not going to be alone.

Yeah, you know, bringing everybody else.

It was a distraction. And, um, so yeah, the boogeyman was like, you know, my wife will tell you, you know, I, I still believe in the boogeyman. I, you know, the scene in, in, I guess it's Chasing, where I take out the garbage, and I always talk about it where And I just, just describe knowing I'm being watched. Someone's here. It is a vile alien feeling. And I felt it at some point, probably a lot, taking out the garbage when I was young. So that's where that came from. And now we have this very long driveway, and I still hate taking the garbage out after dark.

Oh, yeah.

I hate—

you won't catch me doing that.

So many hiding places.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's the thing.

I think everybody has that one chore, like one thing they have to do where you're like, I don't want to do that. Something creepy going to happen when I do that.

Yeah. I don't like going in our cellar.

It's a 250-year-old house. I was just going to say that.

And it has— so for the ceiling beams, it has complete trees. Oh, complete.

My house growing up had those too.

Yeah. And most of them are stripped of the bark, but there's still bark on some. And it's just like, again, you talk about an alien thing in a modern world. And it's dark and it's stone walls, and I'm just like, It's like the Blair Witch basement.

Yeah, it's the perfect setting for something to happen.

Someone's gonna be standing in the corner.

Oh, I hate it.

I hate it.

The little handprints all over the place.

There are handprints.

No.

And names written on this, on the, on this one cubbyhole that's like to the outside.

Yeah, it's—

yeah, yeah, that's a lot.

Oh, that's, that's freaky. Yeah, yeah, it's freaky, but it's fun. We— that's what we love, you know? That's why you live there. Yeah.

And that's why you write good scary books.

Well, I think that's part of it, is that I still am a believer.

Yeah.

I'm still scared. And it's to their great humor.

Yeah.

And my older son, Billy, the writer and the filmmaker, he's like me.

Okay.

I always tell the story of the first time we watched Paranormal Activity, which some people think is dumb.

No, I hate when people say that.

We love Paranormal Activity.

It's so good. We started watching it at night, opposite sides of the sofa. And this is a pretty typical experience. And as that movie went on, we got closer and closer. We're halfway through, and I mean, we are snug. And at some point we kind of looked at each other and we said, let's finish this tomorrow in the daylight.

Yup, yup.

And we're like, yep, good night, good night. And we both just went our separate ways. It's the same person. Whereas my youngest son is more like my wife, Kara, very practical. So they get to the end of a movie like that and they're like, eh, that was kind of dumb. And we're just like, what did— what were you watching? You're like, were you watching the same thing? So it's a good thing that I do write what I write because I do think it helps.

Oh yeah.

Um, and especially when I'm writing with a sense of nostalgia as a kid, because I'm still, you know, I am still that big kid.

Yeah.

In so many ways, and especially the imagination. And, and, and, um, yeah, I hope I never get that educated out of me. Well, at this point, I think it's too late. I think, I think I'm a lost cause. I see my wife nodding.

Honestly, I feel that way too. Yeah, like, I am what I am at this point.

Yeah, you got to accept yourself. Kindred spirits know, you know, it's like we're going to circle the wagons. dragons, because we're all weirdos.

Yeah.

As soon as you guys stepped in, you started talking about your haunted house. I was like, oh, you're in good company. Yeah, these are our people.

Yeah, yeah. And you sense it, you know?

Yeah, you sense it.

And you're talking to someone who's like super practical and all that, and they're just like looking at you and they're like, but Rich, you know there's no such thing. And I just stop them. I'm like, no, I don't.

You're like, I don't know.

I don't know.

Neither do you.

Exactly.

Yeah, none of us know.

I'm like, well, tell me about the afterlife, Mr. Know-it-all.

Yeah, right.

You know, that's the thing, because I have like, I have like both sides of the brain where I like— You do. I really want to disprove certain things. Like, my brain wants to do that.

You're Mulder and Scully all in one.

She really is. I love that.

That's really awesome.

Best way to describe me. I'll take that. And that's— so I always want to prove it wrong, but I never can. And so I'm like, so I'm not going to sit here and say that I know because I don't.

It's because you have that sciency side to you.

Yeah. I want to figure out why things happen. Yeah.

Yes, I get that.

9 times out of 10, I can't.

Me, I just accept it for what it is. I love—

that's what I love. Yeah.

Ash is just like, yep. Yep, that's haunted, and I don't know why.

Okay. And I don't want to hear anything else. Yeah, I try to disprove, and if I can't, then I'll say, okay, I don't know, that's, that's a ghost, I guess.

Yeah, like, that's it. And 9 out of 10 times, it's a ghost.

That's true. Yeah, yeah, I can't prove it most of the time, right?

I'm with you. And I'm still, I'm still, again, because I'm a guy, I think I'm dumb enough to, to still poke the hornet's nest. I mean, we did, we did like a Gettysburg ghost tour, and I'm the dummy one.

Oh, I wanna do that so bad. I do too.

Took one of my son's friends and he was just terrified. So at some point I decided to be a wiseass and I'm like, I started like calling down the spirits to take over his body.

No. See, you're the one in the group that I'd be like, you gotta go.

Yeah. I'm the, I'm the first one to die by the way.

You gotta get outta here.

Don't worry, I'll be dead soon enough.

You gotta go.

Um, but yeah, I, I had him praying in a corner.

Oh my gosh.

And he was so scared.

Stop.

I'm like, I had to apologize to his father and the whole thing. I'm like, he probably broke out in a rash. And the whole thing. He— sorry I traumatized yourself because I was like using, you know, I'm like, come down, I summon you, take over Gavin. And, and the next thing I know he's praying and I'm just like, okay, I've gone, I've gone too far.

You're like, shit, sorry, my work here is done. All right, gotta go.

Yeah.

Oh, that's great. Oh, now growing up, did you have a local legend or a local boogeyman that you remember? A lot of small towns have that a little bit.

I mean, I wrote about the guy called the Rubber Band Man and chasing the boogeyman.

Yep.

People ask me if that was real, when I hid inside the playground tunnel and the smell. And I'm like, you know what? I think it was real because that was the thing. Chasing the Boogeyman, everything I wrote about, everything as I remember it, except for the murders, which, I mean, and everyone's names are all my true friends' names. I like that. My parents' names. It was a memoir in a lot of ways, which was, for me, was so much fun to write because my parents had been gone for quite a while, but for the months that I spent on the book, they were back.

Yeah, you bring them back.

And I was in my old childhood bedroom after graduating, waiting to get married. And all my friends, when I was writing about younger days, we were still the Hanson Road Boys. We were all just still scattered around the neighborhood. I loved that instead of the country. And I'm doing an event soon, and all the Hanson Road Boys are coming.

Oh, hell yeah.

And I told them, I was like, I actually advertised it. I'm like, the Hanson Road Boys will be there. Oh, as you should. And people are going to recognize them as half of the photos.

Yeah.

But the neat thing is, is I told him, I said, you're going to be signing probably more books than I am because people for years have said, I want to meet him. It's so and so real. So the most disappointment from the first book was that Carly Albright wasn't real. Yeah. My sidekick.

Okay.

And she's this very strong-willed woman, very wise, and kind of keeps me straight, doesn't put up with my shit. So it's Kara, essentially. Kara. And I grew up with 3 older sisters.

There you go.

So I'm like, there you go. That's, that's how, you know, like an amalgamation of everybody.

Yeah.

Yeah. I knew like fashion stuff and I, you know, I listened to like the Bay City Rollers and the Bee Gees way before everybody else because I had sisters.

Yeah.

You know? That was, yep. And I also knew, you know, Kara will say bullshit, but I also knew the proper way to treat the female.

Yeah. Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Um, older sisters will teach you that.

They absolutely will. Yep.

But yeah, that was the fun of the book is I got to write about everybody and they all really— people always say, were they okay with it? And I'm like, yeah, of course. I—

okay. Oh, they were probably psyched.

Oh, yeah. Well, they're still mad about the pictures. I want more of a close-up in the next one. You can't see my face. No kidding.

I'm like, I love it.

The whole thing. Everyone loved it except the lovely woman to my left, Kara, my wife, who loathed it. She's very behind the scenes and she doesn't even like Like, if I post pictures on Facebook, I have to get her written approval pretty much.

I love it.

She just doesn't, you know, she's not into that, which is fine, but she hated being written about. I'm just like, it's the only way I know how to tell the story. I got away with it for the first book because she was young and it was so far in the past. But then I had to break it to her that the second book was set in modern day.

Like, you're in this a lot.

And you're in this a lot.

Like, you're a big part.

Let me read it.

Yes.

And she's just like, well, I'm not going to read it. That way when people at signings and stuff ask me about it, I can just say, I haven't read it.

You just say, I don't know.

I actually don't know.

I plead the Fifth.

And I'm like, but you're—

I just live this life. I don't know.

And I'm like, but I don't want to say a spoiler. I'm like, but you're integral to the plot in many ways. And I'm like, the first book I always say is like a love story to my hometown and youth and my family.

And it feels that way.

Yeah. And I'm like, the second book is in many ways is a love story to Kara.

Yeah. It did feel that way.

And just my place in the world and how she's helped me move through it. And then I'm like, the third book is kind of all of it. It brings the friends back into it. Kara's a huge part. My sons are more of a part of it.

I loved that. It built upon itself. I loved that.

Yeah. And again, it was very natural. I mean, that's the plus of writing these books is they are a lot of fun to write, even though I'm writing about myself, because I don't I would always tease them. I'm like, yeah, I just wrote a scene in which I ran 10 miles and then I washed the car and I power washed the siding. And they're looking at me like, who did that?

They're like, who's that?

Yeah. And I'm like, I'm pretty much a Navy SEAL in this book. And they're like, people are going to know that you actually look at your steps on your phone and you're happy when it's like, I walked 600 steps today.

It's very relatable.

It really is.

And I would threaten Kara. She'd be like, her usual sassy self. And I'd be like, you know what? I think I'm going to go upstairs and write a love scene real quick. I'm going to write a love scene. And she'd be like, yeah, well, you're not— She's like, good luck with that.

It'll be a work of fiction.

But again, to look back at particularly the first book and be like, all those things happened except for the murders. Yeah. And some people are disappointed that the murders didn't happen. I'm like, I know you don't mean that.

Yeah.

You're like, sorry. I did it. But sorry, young girls weren't murdered.

People say crazy things. You never know. Yeah. Yeah.

That was a really long-winded way of answering that. Yeah. The boogeyman has always been a part of my life.

Yeah.

And, you know, we had, we had our haunted house, we had the Myers house, we had our, our legends. There was definitely a good side of the tracks and a bad side of the tracks and the whole thing. And, and we just, you know, I was always aware of the fact that, and even before I read Stephen King, but especially after I read Salem's Lot at an early age and some of those others.

That was one of my first.

And I was surrounded by books. You know, the youngest of 5 kids. My parents both read. So I was reading, like, Sidney Sheldon because of my sisters and, like, reading the sex scenes out loud to my friends.

And being like, oh my God.

I was like the hero in that regard.

Yeah.

But reading Salem's Lot and a lot of those small town novels, it really made it easy to imagine, you know, the innocence of walking home from sledding at night. But the lights are on in the houses. And it was first for a warped mind like me, it was really easy to take that next step and be like, There's stuff going on behind these windows that we know nothing about.

Oh yeah. And it can be anything.

Yes. And then you get introduced to serial killers and that kind of thing. And you're just like, you don't even have to suspend the belief of vampires and all those other things, which I was fine with because I believed in all of this.

Yeah.

But people, yeah. The idea that you could be standing in line at 7-Eleven to get a Slurpee and the guy behind could have killed 6 people rocked my world. Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

I'm constantly still thinking of that.

Me too.

At all times.

Oh, I think of that.

Yeah. Yeah.

Grocery shopping. I'm like, who's a murderer?

Yeah. I'm like, somebody could be. Somebody's done some weird shit.

Yeah. And odds are, you know.

Yeah. Odds are someone's done that.

That many people in a building.

Yeah.

You go to a concert and 2 people there are killed.

Oh, easy.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yep. Which is horrifying.

Yeah, it is.

Because we're just like living among them. Just whatever. And I think that's why, like, Because obviously you grew up in that town, so it's like you did the small town vibe so well. And I feel like it lends itself really well to adding something so nefarious like murder into it. And why do you think it works so well to add murder into a small town?

I just think the first book for me was about that loss of innocence, not only in myself, but in my You know, I described— that's the reason I opened the book with so much history about the place.

Yeah.

Is because I think for a lot of people, particularly when you're younger, it's your safe place.

Yeah.

It's like, it's, it's the expansion of your home. That's why they say home invasions are so traumatic.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because if you're not safe here, where the hell are you?

Exactly. It's your—

so you can expand that, you know, to the, you know, the wagon wheel of your town. And when you're young, it's like, that's your world.

Yeah.

That's the boundaries. You know, I, you know, when I was that age, You know, hell, I didn't know anything about Dover, Delaware. It was an hour and a half away.

Yeah, right.

If my world ended at the train tracks.

Yeah, there's nothing besides that.

Um, until you get your license, and even then a little bit after that. But so I, I think it's just that contrast of this is supposed to be where you're safe. And I think that applies to, you know, you're a young couple, you move into this suburb, you, you, you, you know, you bring your newborn. Yeah. Um, the thing you're supposed to be most nervous about is strapping your baby in a car seat and driving to the drugstore and back.

That's terrifying in itself. Which is really scary.

Yes.

Yes.

Kara would come home from, you know, work some days and I'd be there, you know, the baby, poor Billy, would have like 3 onesies on because I forgot to take the other onesie off after I changed the diaper and I put a new one on and she's just like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I was nervous.

I don't know. I think he's cold.

How can I be trusted to have a baby? You know, I, I, you know, I'm still shoving chocolate in my face at night when I should be going to sleep. And I'm like, well, you can't sleep because you have so much sugar in you, dummy.

You're like, uh, why am I an adult?

I'm like, but I'm a dad.

I'm cosplaying as an adult, okay?

That was— oh, that was—

We did that a lot. How did this happen?

Literally, me and my husband had twins first, like right out the gate.

Okay.

And so the second they were born, both of us were like, what have we done? Literally just like, oh my God, we have to keep them alive. Like, this is scary.

Yeah.

Oh my God.

And one of them was very, very tiny.

Oh, she was the tiniest.

She was like £5 when she was born. So she was like a little—

A little bird.

And putting her in the car seat, We were like, and I remember the nurses come in and they like do the thing where they're like, you have to put them in the car seat and you have to know how, and they can't tell you how to do it. You're just supposed— and I was like, but I didn't study for this test. Like, I don't know. And we were like so scared of putting this tiny little thing in there.

Oh, they're so fragile.

I won't touch friends and, you know, all their babies until they get to a certain age.

I get it.

I'm terrified.

Yeah.

Yeah. I did it with my own.

I go, do it properly.

Okay.

I see strangers like in the grocery store parking lot and I'm like, support the neck, support the neck.

You're not doing it already.

You know? It's so—

yeah, it's so scary.

And it informed everything. It informed my work back then. All of a sudden, everything I was writing about was about the fragility of the world around us. Yes. Um, so I think that that's my, my answer for the small town thing, is it's just supposed to be— all you're supposed to be worried about is your baby in the car seat and getting home in time to watch, uh, you know, I'm gonna date myself, but, you know, Beverly Hills, 90210, or whatever it was back in the day.

There we go.

And instead, you know, there are neighborhood watch groups and they're talking about doing a curfew and there's cops everywhere and you're just like, this shouldn't be happening.

Yeah. Like, I should be able to walk down the street and not worry.

Yeah. Which, you know, in my youth I could, you know, we spent the night with each other's— at each other's houses and we snuck out windows at midnight and we went down to 7-Eleven and we got Slurpees and the whole thing. I mean, my friends love telling stories about about that, including the one where we all played poker. And then my buddy won all of our money when he was sleeping. We took a flashlight and tweezers and we opened his pocket. We flashed the flashlight and stole all his money that he had won from us. Went to 7-Eleven. He got to the counter, had all this stuff on the counter and no money to pay for it. Boyhood.

We were demons. That's friendship.

Yeah, exactly. He still tells that story. But yeah, we did those things and it was safe.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I mean, my— again, my dumbass was probably talking about the boogeyman.

Yeah.

Or what, you know, I heard that, you know, the rubber band man, which I think the legend was that he only came out in the daytime, which, which was weird. But I, you know, I'm sure I was like, my sister told him— told me that they've started seeing him at night now.

Oh, of course.

So, you know, we're scared to death. Of course.

We can't have a safe time.

But again, it was like, it was, you know, it was more like riding a roller coaster. It's like you were scared, but somewhere in the back of your mind, You knew you were gonna be okay and you were gonna put your head down on your own pillow.

Yeah.

Yeah. And it's fun to be scared.

It's like a horror movie or going to a haunted house. You're like, you're in it. I'm gonna get the feeling, but like, I know I'm okay here. Yes.

Yeah. Even though I, as soon as I get in the haunted house, I'm like, I'm going to die.

Yeah.

Because that's what happened in Funhouse.

And so, no, we say that every time we enter any kind of haunted house. We're like, what if this is the one where the person actually wants to kill us all?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's the chainsaws.

The chainsaws.

Yeah. Anytime they chase you outta those places with a chainsaw, I'm like, what if this is that one time? Exactly. But they keep the chain on and this is just like—

and John always thinks we're crazy, but we're like, what if?

Yeah. You know, I'm like, I don't know.

That's it. I mean, people, that's why I love Stephen King. You know, he's still, you know, he's still, he's almost 80 and he's still, I, I know he still believes in the hand that's gonna creep out from under your bed.

Yeah.

Oh, I do too.

Yeah.

You don't hang that, you don't hang your bare leg over.

No.

Yeah.

No, you get in as quick as you can. You put the blankets on.

Yeah, exactly.

You jump in that bed. Yeah.

Yeah.

The blankets do magic.

It's true.

It's true.

Yeah. Now with Killing the Boogeyman coming out so soon, Do you suggest that readers read your first 2 books beforehand? And if the answer is yes, is there anything in particular they should pay close attention to?

You know, I think they should. I mean, I've had people ask me that. And again, my editor was very careful in that, you know, Rich, you need to write these books that they can be standalone. And that's why there's like in Becoming the Boogeyman, the— it's not labeled an introduction, but it opens with a series of newspaper and magazine and online articles. which give you the whole synopsis of the first book.

Yeah.

So you know who Joshua Gallagher is going in. You know who I am. You know that I've had a movie made from this, a book published, the whole thing. So, yeah, absolutely possible to read it. And we tried to do the same thing with the third book.

Okay.

But I just feel like, just like I did that heavy dump of town history in the first book, which I worried about, and some readers did say, they're like, man, the first book, I loved it, but it wasn't until I got to page like 60 it picked up. And I'm like, I get that, but I really wanted you to know that town as well as you knew me.

Yeah, you have to set it up.

Because that's what it's all about. And yeah, so I feel like learning— I feel like there is a progression to the story.

Okay.

It's not necessarily critical, but I feel like the layers are there.

Yeah, that makes sense. And I think I enjoyed reading each one as we went because I think it does really give you, by the time you get to the third book, you feel like the reader knows you and knows your family and your friends and the town so well.

You're so immersed in the story.

You're so invested in the third one at seeing where this goes. And Joshua Gallagher, you start—

you get that build. Yeah.

He evolves. Yeah.

I mean, you're either going to be sick of me by the end of the third book or you're going to be like, I hope there's a fourth.

Yeah.

And you have scenes—

And it might be both. You might be sick of me, but I hope there's a fourth and I hope hope they kill Rick. So yeah, who knows? But yeah, I would like them to read them all. But yeah, I'm appreciative of anyone who picks up any of my books.

Of course.

I'm still that guy at the signing that's like, I always say it. I'm like, I still feel like I'm that little kid on Hanson Road selling cups of lemonade.

Oh, you're like, oh my God, people are coming.

Yeah. It's like, people are buying my books.

Oh, I'm constantly in a state of awe. You say the same thing. Like constantly. When people are like, I've read all 3. I'm like, you've read all 3?

And then you walk out and you're like, how lucky am I?

I know.

Because you probably up like me with the books in your pocket or your purse or your bag.

And it's just like— I'm constantly like, what?

Yeah, it's like, what are you talking about? It's the same thing. Like, people say, well, what it was like to collaborate with Stephen King. And I'm just like, my word's never going to change. It was ridiculous.

Yeah, I can imagine.

It was— it was— you take a normal, everyday, constant reader of his and you say, hey, come over and sit next to me at the typewriter and let's have some fun. And oh my God, it's like, what do you mean I'm going to write about Castle Rock and I'm going to write about Derry and I think I would fall apart.

Like, I think I would just fall just because he was like my introduction into horror.

And only so many people, so many people's introductions.

And it's like I've read every single— like, every time he releases a new book, I'm like, yoink. Like, I don't even need to look. It's just I'm reading that. Yep.

Well, at some point I started getting them ahead of time because of our friendship. You know, I would get an ARC, or sometimes even cooler, I would get, you know, he emailed me the manuscript.

Oh my God.

6 months before the ARC came out or whatever, which was the case with Otherworlds, the new one.

Mm-hmm.

Which is amazing and comes out the same day as Killing the Boogeyman. But yeah, I just, you know, to this day, I'm just like, anytime a new book comes out, it doesn't matter if I've read it. I still want to go to Target or Barnes Noble or wherever it is, or my indie, and buy the new book. Yeah, because I've done it my whole life.

Oh, yeah.

So fun. You got to have it.

Yeah, it doesn't matter if we're like, you know, we'll sell his new book. So we usually sell 1,500, 2,000 copies or something. So they're all in the warehouse. Yeah, but I still want to buy my copy.

Yeah, you need that.

You need it. It's a rite of passage for me. Yeah.

And honestly, that's how I felt even with your books that you like. Widow's Point. I scream about that book to everybody who listens because that genuinely scared the shit out of me. I was like, this is a scary-ass book, especially coming up on Halloween. I was like, everybody read that book. It's so good.

Yeah. That book actually got highlighted by so many readers as one of the scariest books they've ever read, which made me so happy because Billy and I knew Going in, we're like, when we wrote the novella version of that, I remember telling Billy at some point, I said, this is our everything but the kitchen sink.

Yeah.

And he tried to throw in the kitchen sink. He loves to tell that story. He's like, Dad had to rein me in because at the end, I did something. And then he's like, okay, remember how we talked about it's everything but the kitchen sink? You just threw it in. We can't. So then with the novel, we were able to expand on it. And it's just all the— during our signing tour, I kept referring to it as Scooby-Doo for grownups.

Oh, it literally is. It's so fun.

At one point I said, my publisher might not like hearing that. My publisher might not—

It doesn't mean to them what it means to me.

Yeah, exactly.

So many people it would though.

Yeah. We had a van. We had— oh, one guy was like Shaggy. He had long hair and he was a stoner.

Oh, I haven't read that yet, but I'm absolutely—

I told her, I was like, you have to listen to that.

I'm sold on Scooby-Doo for adults. Yeah.

And it's found footage in love form. So it's cool in that regard. But it, that even was a happy accident. And people are like, you got are brilliant. And I'm like, no. Oh, so good. We really aren't. It's just that was the only way we knew how to tell the story. And we started playing with camera angles and different recording devices.

That was the coolest part.

I'm like, we had no idea what we were doing until the reviewers pointed it out, honestly.

And there's so much subtlety in that book that's scary too.

We tried to do that.

There was a lot of how Blair Witch is so scary because it's so— and even Paranormal Activity, you're not even seeing everything. It's just the vibes are like, oh, that's—

And then sometimes you're seeing something, you don't know whether you believe it or not because we're The way we described it shouldn't be possible. But then again, it's the supernatural, which is, yeah, there are no rules.

Yeah. And it felt real.

Yeah.

Because it wasn't always over the top. Right. Like there were moments in that book that you were just like, ooh, that thing moved and that's weird. Yeah. So like, I don't like that.

Like, ooh.

Yeah.

What inspired you guys to work together? Like, did you just say one day like, we have to write a book together?

Yeah. Well, you know what? We always wanted, I mean, he, you know, he was a little weirdo. God bless him.

Hell yeah.

You know, he would sit on my lap and, and we would get, we would have one of those like, $14.99 giant coffee table glossy books from the bargain bin at Barnes& Noble, like on the unexplained. And we would sit there for 3 hours flipping through that. And he was the one begging to— he still hasn't forgiven me for letting him watch Signs and not warning him ahead of time about that birthday party and the corns.

Oh yeah, the birthday party.

Those 2 he had. I remember he crawled up. He was young enough. He was probably 10. I don't know. I'm a bad dad, I guess. He, he, he crawled up on the top of the sofa and was watching it laying down over my shoulder.

You're like, I don't know. I didn't know you were there.

He's like, I'm safe here.

Yes.

But he still doesn't forgive me. His, his, his first R-rated was, uh, Silver Bullet. The same thing.

Oh my God. The Werewolf.

Oh man. That was New Year's Eve once. We're like, all right, we're just gonna do it.

It's time.

Of course, his younger brother who was 4 years younger got to, you know, hitchhike along for the ride.

The younger ones always get it early.

But he wasn't even scared.

So. Yeah.

Yeah, that's what my kids got, because my kids are— my twins are 10 and my youngest just turned 7. And my twins really wanted to watch Return to Oz. And I was like, that was like one of my first horror movies.

It is a horror movie.

Because it's a scary movie.

Yeah.

And I was like, this is going to scare the crap out of you. It didn't scare them at all. And even like my— I think she was maybe 5 or 6 when she watched it because she just got to tag along.

She was unfazed.

Unfazed by it.

Oh, I love it.

And now I'm like, What else can I show?

Even I wonder, yeah.

Welcome to my world.

Challenge accepted.

Yeah.

I was like, all right.

You know, you shouldn't be, but I thought Coraline might get them.

I thought Coraline was gonna fuck them up and they were like, this is great.

Yeah. They loved it. Yeah.

Yeah. Show 'em like a really old one, like Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. Cuz when the kid comes out with that net, that's what you're gonna show. Those are the things I grew up on. Like the original Wizard of Oz, which back then was, you know, must-see TV. It came on once a year.

Yes.

Like the Christmas specials.

Yeah.

You couldn't miss— you like, you know, you like put it on the calendar. I gotta be in to watch Rudolph. So yeah, same thing with Wizard of Oz. You know, I just remember, you know, the flying monkeys and the haunted forest.

Oh yeah. Oh, it's so scary.

And my parents saying, you know, next year we're not gonna let you watch it because you had nightmares for a month. By then they would forget. Um, you know, the youngest of 5 kids, they were worn down.

Oh yeah.

Um, but Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

Yep.

And that childnapper with the pointy nose and the neck. Oh my gosh.

If that doesn't scare you, you can watch anything.

Yeah.

That'll mess you up.

Yeah, it's true. They really wanna see Jurassic Park. And even that, I'm like, oh, Jurassic Park is—

but then again, they're so— it might work out.

And they're logical and they're like, well, dinosaurs aren't around anymore. Like, I'm not worried about a T-Rex.

See, that one messes you up though, cuz somebody could bring them back.

I know. I was like, you know, science. Oh, that's the whole thing. That's—

I'm convinced somebody already has. They're on some island just out the lake somewhere.

We're just waiting. Yeah.

What's funny is Jurassic Park for me, Because I was so wide-eyed with wonder, I was, you know, I'm sure it was more suspenseful for me than actually scary because I was too busy going, you know, probably with drool coming, dinosaurs, eating ice cream. It's all over my shirt. Dinosaurs are real. I knew it.

We all go through that phase, right?

It's true.

I'm still in it, unfortunately.

I get it. My husband's still in that phase too. I get it.

We'll get there.

I would love to go back to your trilogy for a second.

Sure.

Specifically, I'd love to talk about the titles, Chasing, Becoming, and Killing. When did you know that those verbs were gonna be kind of like the arc for your stories?

When Ed told me.

Okay.

All right. Again, by the end of this interview, you'll figure out that, you know, I would readily admit I'm not as smart as some of the reviewers think I am.

Well, titles are hard.

This was called The Boogeyman.

Okay.

Because, and I always knew I wanted to write A story or a book, preferably a book. The 2 titles I always had in my back pocket that I wanted to one day have novels, um, The Boogeyman and The Altar.

Oh yeah.

And I always pictured an altar in the woods.

Oh, I like the—

oh, I like that a lot.

Yeah. So one day.

Yeah, one day. I'm waiting for that.

But yeah, he thought we definitely need, you know, more. And, um, Chasing was the first thing he came up with, and I was like, that's perfect.

Yeah.

And then the second one, I just had working title Okay. And we discussed it. I mean, maybe give myself a little credit. Maybe I was like, maybe I spit that title out when we were kind of blue-skying it. I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure it was Ed. And then I will give— I did say Killing the Boogeyman.

There you go.

So, which is perfect, I think.

Yeah.

Titles are hard. Oh, I'm not great at titles.

Titles are hard. And I didn't realize not every author comes up with their title necessarily.

No, a lot of times you have a title and you're like, this is the title.

And they're like, it's actually not.

Yeah.

I went in with a totally different title. It's a title, all right. Just not a good one.

Yeah.

Word, like for sure.

That's what it comes down to, like marketing and that kind of thing too, I'm sure. So there's a lot that goes into it.

Yeah. And sometimes you get ideas for titles that you're like, what? Like there was several ideas that I got at one point that I was like, are you punking me?

Yeah. I remember going through some of them and I was like, not that one.

I read them out loud. I was like, this is real.

Did I mean this? Did I scribble that in my handwriting? Yeah, no, I, I'm pleased with the titles.

Yeah, they're great.

Yeah, it's gonna be neat to see all 3 next to each other.

Yeah, yeah, it is cool.

On the journey. And, and, um, I, I, you know, I love the fact that, that when I'm gone, you know, my kids and their kids can kind of read these stories and be like, yeah, that was the old guy, you know?

Yeah.

If my kids, when they read Chasing the Boogeyman, I'll never forget it because they've heard all my stories, including some of the gross ones that are in there, um, which my sister like immediately texted me and said, did this really happen? And I'm like, yes. And they're like, oh my God, I never thought Brian and Craig would do that. I'm like, all the time.

You know, like, you have no idea.

Everyone knew about me throwing stuff at cars that, you know, that I talk about in there. Because it's like, yeah, I, I'm genuinely surprised I didn't get sent to reform school for whatever reason. It was like, if there was an object on the ground, there was a moving vehicle, I wanted to—

it was happening.

So many boys go through that phase, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My kids never got to because nowadays you get shot.

Now you can't. Yeah.

But I've told Kara, I'm like, one day I just want to take them out. Let them go for it. Doing it on such a property and there's so many trees and there's fences and I'm like, there's hiding places.

Yeah.

And they're like, but bullets, she's like, but bullets go through fences. And I'm like, you're, you're right.

You're like, that's really valid.

That's super valid.

'Cause we can get arrested. I don't care about that.

Yeah.

I'll, I'll just be honest. I'm like, we just, I had to give 'em that experience.

Yeah.

But as particularly Billy came back and he's like, you and your friends were like a group of street urchins. You just roam the town. And I'm like, I'm like, that's what it was like.

You're like, you have no idea. It was awesome. It was limitless.

No, no cell phones. Oh, it was at the dawning age of computers. We only had one guy, Jimmy Kavanaugh, my buddy, who, who had an early Commodore 64.

The big chunky computers.

Wow.

And it was like green screens.

Yes, it was green. We would look through his bedroom window and he'd be playing like, he'd be playing Zelda.

Yes.

And then like, I think it was like the Oregon Trail or something.

Oh yeah.

He would describe it to us how cool it was. And we'd be like, shut up. Now we're playing wiffle ball or, you know, we're gonna go bomb cars.

Like, really?

Come outside, nerd. Yes.

Yes. Which is so much better.

Yes.

Yeah. No, it's true. 'Cause I had a neighbor whose dad would, the way that he would get her home and she was like down the street, he would do this crazy whistle that went all the way down the street. And his, I love that. If he needed her, he would do that whistle and she would just go get him and then come back.

See, and that's so of that time.

Yeah. 'Cause there was no phone to call or anything else to call.

Now your parent just texts you.

Yeah.

I think I wrote about, I might not have written about it. It might've been just in my head, but my, but the guys I just mentioned, Brian and Craig Anderson, their dad Mr. Fred would whistle.

Yeah, he did that crazy, like, where?

And he was super strict. And it didn't matter if we were, like, if we were in the middle of a wiffle ball game, he could be in the middle of his pitching motion. If he heard that whistle, he dropped the ball and took off.

Hey, you gotta go.

He couldn't be convinced because, you know, he's more scared of his dad than he was of us being mad at him because he left in the middle of the game, right, or the middle of Monopoly or whatever it was we were doing. But as soon as he heard that whistle, And it's just neat that you said that because that was the other thing I learned is at some point I was a little nervous before Chasing came out because I thought, who's going to care about me? And I said, it's just this campfire story essentially about the boogeyman and my friends. And it had all this buzz ahead of time. And I'm like, I got nervous, which I never do. I'm just like, they're either going to like it or they're not.

Yeah.

But I thought it's such a small, intimate story. You know, maybe, oh boy, maybe they're all in for a disappointment. And, but what I found, and a really valuable lesson I learned right away, was that it was never about me in the first place. It was about how they related to it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they, all the people who had that Whistler, or all the people who, who had friends who they jumped ramps with.

Yep.

From plywood that they got at the dump or they stole from a construction site.

Yep.

Yep. Just all those little— I got more emails and posts about what it was like to pop tar bubbles on the road.

Oh, my God.

On a summer day.

Wow.

And some of them were, like, so heartfelt. They're just like, it was one of my favorite memories of being a child, and somehow I forgot it.

And it wasn't a unique experience. Somehow it left. Yeah.

So it was neat as a writer to realize, hey, dummy, it was never about you in the first place, even though the character is named after you. It was just about finding those people who who share those experiences and could relate instantly.

Yeah. Well, everybody's so nostalgic for that time right now, especially now. So it's great timing.

I want simpler times so badly.

I didn't even have it, and I'm nostalgic for it. Like, you talk about your childhood and just, like, not having phones and not having computers. I wish I had grown up like that.

It's such a simpler time. It really was.

Yeah. I mean, you found your friends by knocking on their doors or sitting on the corner waiting for them to find you.

I love that. And I feel like you had to grow that extra— there was this developmental thing of calling someone's house and having to talk to their parents.

See, I did go through that.

It's like that was such a developmental thing that kids now are not going through. They don't have to have that social awareness to talk to parents and be like, hi, Mr. Turner.

It's always so embarrassing.

Are they home? And that person being like, oh, yeah. How's school? Asking you questions and having to answer it. It's just, I'm like, I want that back.

I'm at that weird age where like I remember some of that and like had some of that, but then I also kind of grew up as the internet was like becoming more of a thing. You know?

Mm-hmm.

Unfortunately, everything that the old people told us when we were really young, yeah, was true.

Unfortunately.

Yeah.

It's like the whole thing about how it's gonna, it's gonna pass in a blink.

Yep.

And I mean, it's like now I tell people with that, with kids, cuz I'm just like, you know, our youngest went to, to UVA back in 2021. And he played lacrosse. So it was a really cool experience, and it was over in a blink. We still talk about how we felt the first time he came out, and we're just like, this was his dream come true. So as his parents, you're fighting back tears, and then how, wow, we got 4 years of this, and then how we blinked and it's been done for a year and a half.

Oh, my God.

So it's like I tell everyone with kids that, and the ones who said, you're going to long for the simplicity of this one day and all that, and you're going You know, cuz you know, you're bitching about having to mow the lawn and, you know, whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

The mundane.

It's like, oh, what I would give to be out there mowing the lawn while my dad was in the garage working on the car and have my mom come out and gimme a glass of lemonade. Yes.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

Just that.

And that's so true. You know, I write about that stuff all the time now because that's how I can remember.

Right. It's that, like, that whole like saying of the days are long, but the years are short with kids is the truest thing I have ever heard. And I remember hearing it and being like, okay. And now I'm like, now they're gonna be 11 and they just, and the youngest just turned 7. And I'm like, but you were a squishy little baby. It does go fast.

I feel that way even as their aunt. I'm like, stop it. Like, it's freeze.

And it, and it's like some days with kids you're just like, okay, like this day is never ending. This day is 48 hours long. And that's crazy. But then it's like all of a sudden they're 10 and you're just like, where did that go? Oh, and now all of a sudden you're gonna be dropping them off to college. And then all of a sudden they're gonna be in high school and they're gonna be in college. And I'm like, oh my gosh.

I wept like a baby when I dropped off Billy. Oh, I just, yeah, I actually, I cried for like 2 weeks ahead of time.

Yeah. Just anticipating.

Well, I'd see him like sitting at the kitchen island doing his homework and I'd just be like, how's he gonna do his homework next year? He's a freshman in college and we're not here to give him a brownie.

That's so sweet.

And to say, Billy, it's really late. You should go to bed and finish it in the morning. And I'm just like, you just call him at that time.

You're like, do you need anything?

Do you have a snack?

Well, no, cuz then they get there and they're like, you know, they only text— I, Billy only texted me when, when he was in the library. He was supposed to be doing Like a paper. Yeah, he would— I would get a bunch of texts. I'm like, are you in the library?

Are you supposed to write your papers?

That's, that's how we actually started writing, is one of those stories from the library. He's like, we should write something together.

Oh, I love that.

And I was like, let's just do something old-fashioned. That's my widow's point. We're like, let's do a ghost story.

And oh, that must be so cool.

Yeah, that's rad.

Oh, it's the best thing in the world.

That's like the dream.

People always say, what's your favorite? And for a while it was, well, I wrote with Stephen King, who is like my literary father.

And yeah, right.

I was like, how are you going to surpass that? And then I wrote with my knucklehead son.

Yeah.

And people are like, well, the father-son dynamic, did you fight?

No.

I'm like, we really didn't.

I love that.

The only time he got grumpy when he was hungry, so I would know he was hungry.

Got you, Elliot.

Billy, go eat.

Yeah.

And he got grumpy at me sometimes because of my technical ignorance, like the scroll bar and things like that, which that's just bound to happen.

Yeah.

And I was like the file master. I had to control the final file at all times. I'm like, so—

well, you've been through this.

Yes.

Yeah. And if something goes wrong, you're like, at least I know it was me.

And then I don't have to get mad at you.

Yeah. And then editing, you know how it's, you got the comments in the border and all this stuff. Yeah. So you gotta click buttons into all this stuff and I'm just like, can't we just print it out and use a pen?

Yeah.

That's literally, can you just redline this?

Yes.

Yes.

Because I think I did actually do that with this.

Really?

Yeah. God bless 'em for, for the whole crew for working with me.

'Cause yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm a dinosaur and you gotta find what works for you. Honestly, I'm the same way. Like the amount of times, like my husband's like, oh, Here we go. Because he'll walk in the room and I've printed out all the chapters and I have Post-it notes on all of them and I just am physically moving things around because I can't do it on a screen. It doesn't make sense to me. My brain doesn't work that way. Yeah.

And I see writers who have the big computer setups with multiple screens and they're shifting scenes back and forth and I'm like, are you insane?

I have to physically move that over here or it won't make sense.

I'm happy with this scene. Don't touch it. Don't move it.

I'm not moving that over there.

I've heard you say that so many times. Don't touch it.

Yeah. Don't touch that.

Yeah, that's it. I still feel like we're building this house of cards. I had to learn that for the rewriting process, that that is actually where a lot of the fun happens and where you kind of make yourself look smart. And a lot of times for me, not on purpose, because I'm like, wait a minute. In the beginning, I was terrified. I'm like, if I move one card, it's all going to collapse.

Everything's gone.

Yeah.

That's how I still feel that way sometimes, because I'm like, well, I think this should shift later. And I'm like, but then none of this makes sense.

Right.

Yes, it does.

Do you, when you get notes from your, when you get the revisions back from your editor, do you still have to go through stages? I go through the first stages. Oh, hell no.

It's pissed.

Yes.

Yes. See, Kara's had to put up with this through all the books. And then by the next day I'm like, and usually in addition to that, there's an email to my agent.

Yep. That's our email.

And by the next day I'm like, you know what? Like, probably a fourth of these are really good.

This is literally me.

Yeah. Next day it's up to 50.

It sounds so familiar.

Next day's 50%. And by the end of the first week, I'm like, damn, he did a good job.

That's literally, by the end of the first week, I'm like, my editor is brilliant.

Yes, the bomb.

But in the beginning I'm like, I hate them and I'm going to fight them with my hands. Yeah, like, fuck that guy.

No, I know. Fortunately, Ed knows if there's a hill that I'm willing to die on, he'll leave it alone.

Yeah, that's the thing.

Even if he really believes, because he just wants me to have the best book that I can possibly have that I'm happy with.

Yeah. And they're like, this is your story. Like, I'm just here to help you make sense.

I can't imagine editors being otherwise, but I've heard stories.

Oh, yeah.

And I'm just like, I know how lucky I am. He just sent me a picture of the first finished Killing the Boogeyman. And that's what I said. I said, well, as always, thank you for everything. Because, you know, and, but yeah, I had to ask that.

It's a learning curve.

Yeah. Now I'm rewriting, I embrace it and I'm like, I'm going to make myself look good and they're going to make me look good. And then the copy editor's going to come make me look even better.

That's the best part.

The whole thing.

Yeah.

We got a copy editor.

The copy editor comes in and I'm like—

I'm like, how did I not fail English?

Yeah. I'm like, oh, great.

Look at me.

I'm like, where did this semicolon? Why did I have 3 extra commas in this paragraph? Yeah.

My favorite thing is they'll be like, I looked into this and this wasn't here in this year. And I'm like, yeah, it wasn't.

You're right.

Get rid of it. Thank you for fixing that.

And the once in a blue moon where you're actually right.

Yeah.

It's like, oh, I like, I like have my own parade around the neighborhood and stuff.

I'm like, well, actually, you're like, gotcha. Here's the source for that.

But I love that you get mad cuz I'm the same way. Oh yeah. I'm just like, ha, it, it's not how dare they. Um, I'm such a great writer. It's just like, it's like, what are they thinking?

Yeah.

No, I, I, I know how to tell this story.

Yeah. This is my story. I know how it goes.

It's your story.

Yeah.

It's vulnerable.

I'm like, of course I wanna describe this thing for 4 4 pages in a row.

And everyone should step back.

And they're like, you don't have to. That's not something you need to do.

Yeah, I love it. I'm going to go home feeling much better.

Yeah. I text my agent—

Telling her the whole way. Told you.

No, my agent knows she's going to get a text message. She's like, all right, so they're in. And I'm like, oh, good. And I'll open it, and she knows within an hour—

That's going to be a night.

—that she's going to get a full-page text message of me being like, and this, and that, and this. And then by the next day, I'll be like, you know what? That wasn't that bad. They might be right about this. And she's like, yeah. I know.

She's like, you do this every time, babe.

Yep. Let's go.

My agent told me that I'm always going to feel this way because I told her, I said, every time it's time to start a new book, I have no idea how. And I will tell my wife, long-suffering wife, I was like, I don't know how to write a book. I'm like, I don't remember.

I've never done this before.

It just happens. And I told my agent that and she said, I hate to tell you, but you're going to be saying that after book 20. through book 30, and it's just your process.

It's very daunting at first.

Yeah. And I mean, and I don't need to get down much until I'm rolling. I don't know if it's any good. I never do. And that's fine.

It's the starting.

Yeah. I mean, Harlan Coben just last week was talking about the shitty first draft, and again, it made me feel so good. He's just like, you never show your first draft to anyone. No. And I'm just like, I felt like I had permission to— I was like, am I hallucinating? That cat just—

I was going to say, did my cat just move? That's what I thought. Oh, I saw one downstairs.

I have 3.

I mean, Mikey warned me. He's like, you're not allergic. I'm like, we have 4 dogs. I don't think I'm allergic to anything.

I was gonna say, I have 3 cats, a dog. We got a lot going on here.

Oh, well, my oldest son, yeah, is— well, he's moving out soon. We've convinced him to. I'm like, if you want to be a writer, you better hang out in the attic, you know, in-law suite for a while because you're gonna need to save your money.

Yeah, yeah, right.

So, but he's at the end of that rope, um, you know, so it's gonna be like him going away to college again. I'm gonna weep for a week.

Oh yeah. I would be the same way.

Yeah. Anyway.

Well, and speaking just back to the Boogeyman series, we talked about it. You use your real name, you as a character, your hometown, pieces of your actual life, your family, friends. Is there anything that you put in the books that unexpectedly felt a little vulnerable afterwards?

Yeah, quite a bit. And even some of the make-believe, like with Chasing the Boogeyman, the rule was, Well, the merge didn't happen. So when I'm talking about my reactive scenes to these, I wanted to be as honest as I could. So knowing that, yes, I would be absolutely aghast at what was happening and terrified, but I would also be intrigued because it was my world.

Right.

And I was here. So I tried to be honest in a scene where I went to one of the memorials and And down the street further, there was a picture of one of the victims that someone had posted that had blown away. And I'm like, yeah, I probably would take it and put it in my pocket instead of— and that's creepy. But I was obsessed with what was going on, and I tried to justify it in my head. I'm like, well, look, if it was at the base of the memorial, I would have put it back up. Yeah, but it was half a block down the street, and I'm like, no, I took it. So there was those things. But yeah, I just— I tried to be as honest as I could with all of it. And yeah, I just— and now I forgot the original question. I do that at least once a panel. I'm like—

I honestly do the same thing every single time in a conversation.

I've learned, just say it.

Just say it out loud.

Yeah, you might as well, right?

Don't try to remember it and don't try to sound smart at that point. So what did you say again?

Things felt unexpectedly vulnerable.

Yeah, there were a couple of things where I— and I've been questioned about them, whether they're honest or not. The scene in Chasing the Boogeyman where I'm sledding and all my friends have gone home early. And you all know what it feels like, the hush of the falling snow and the glow of the house lights and just that feeling. kind of revelation there that, that I was growing up, my friends were growing up, and that not only because of what was happening now, but because of what was about to happen naturally as we got older, things were never going to be the same again.

Mm-hmm.

And once we graduated, we were going to go our separate ways and we might not see each other again. And the world just felt so much bigger in that moment. And I did have that moment coming home from sledding, standing on the hill, when everyone left early and the whole way home. And I just remember it. I just remember it felt like the world cracked wide open.

Yeah.

Um, so that scene, and then the scene where shortly after we moved to town and my father and I walked up to the top of Bayberry and saw all the Christmas lights out in front of us, and I just felt that childlike wonder. I felt safe. I could smell my father's aftershave, feel my hand in his. And I just felt like, again, the innocence and the safety of a small town. Yeah. And your parents. And yeah, I did a, I did a book club with like 35, 40 older women who, you know, they'll call you on your shit. Yeah. No matter what. Um, and yeah, I had a very sweet old lady lift, raise her hand and just say, kind of give me the look, you know? And like, you were 15, you were 14, you weren't thinking those things. And I'm like, actually, I was not with the hand in my dad's hand. I was like 6 or 7 then. Yeah, sure. And she wasn't questioning that so much as she was kind of realizing that life was never going to be the same. We were going to be torn apart.

Because it does hit you, I think, at that age too. I feel like that's such a real experience.

Yeah. And I'm like, I had those feelings a lot. I think that's how I knew early on, because I was writing stories from the time I was like 8 or 9.

Yeah.

And I really was— I wasn't submitting or anything, but I was writing a lot at that age. And I said, I had those feelings a lot. I was in the moment, but I was always— there was always a part of me that was outside of the moment.

Yeah.

And my friends will tell you, they're like, we always knew it was your job. You were the one who was going to remember.

Yeah. Because you're the storyteller.

You're the one that's going to hold all the— And Billy feels the same way. And we've talked about how it's this weird responsibility.

Yeah.

And in one of the Boogeyman books, my buddy Jimmy Kavanaugh comes home, lives in South Carolina, and we're sitting in our car across the street from the Myers Field. And there's a very real moment. And this didn't happen with Jimmy, but it's happened with others where I feel such crushing disappointment because he doesn't remember.

Oh, yeah.

And it feels like this weird sort of betrayal because we were buddies. This was such an integral part of our life. Right. And you have this, like, unspoken promise that you'll never forget it. Yep. Yeah. And I'm looking at the grown-up and he forgot it, and I never forgot it for a minute. Yeah. It was actually part of who I am. Yeah.

That's happened to everyone, I feel like.

I think so. Definitely.

So I wrote about that in there. Yeah. And I just— yeah, I remember the day I wrote it. It was like such a downer. It affected the rest of my day.

Oh, I'm sure.

Yeah.

Because you could feel the feeling again.

Yeah, it like resurrects it because you're walking around feeling like something so special and you're thinking it's this trivial little thing.

Makes you feel silly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, so yeah, I put a lot of that stuff in there. And I know with the, uh, the snow scene, um, it is some— it had been something that I had told maybe 2 or 3 people about in my life, Kara, and, you know, maybe my son or my sister or someone. And it was— it very felt— it very much felt like the, uh, the deer by the train track scene in Stand By Me. Oh, yes. Where Gordy's sitting on there in the morning. He woke up early and he says he saw this deer and it's this moment of beauty. And he says, I've never told anyone or written about it until now. And I felt like every writer has those. And I felt like I gave one up, but I felt like I had to.

It was a good one to give up. I feel like, because I feel like a lot of people can relate to it. I think so.

And people said, they're like, man, I've never read a serial killer book with so much heart. And I'm just like, Again, it was the only way I knew how to write it. Yeah. But yeah, you feel a little weird because you are giving up a part of yourself and you're feeling vulnerable, and then you have some sweet old lady call you on it and you're like, I swear.

Thanks a lot, lady. Because you feel weirdly vulnerable just writing a book anyways. Even my books have nothing to do with me, and I'm still like, I just feel as soon as it gets put out into the world, you're like, I feel like you're weirdly reading my diary. Yeah, sure.

Well, it's something that you felt so strongly about it to dedicate all this time to. And now you're going to show it to everybody, and someone might think, why'd you waste 9 months writing that? I would say writing a novel is like the ultimate symbol of faith.

Yeah.

In yourself, in what you're working on, the whole thing. Because people ask me about collaborating, and I'm like, oh, it's really about trust. Oh, it has to be faith. And I'm like, but so is writing the book by yourself. Yeah, you are. I mean, you're talking— I always say that to like students, whenever I talk to students, I'm like, you're giving a part of yourself to the world, even if it's all make-believe.

Yeah. And it feels that way. Yeah. Each time.

Definitely. Yeah. Let's take a break to thank the sponsor of today's episode, Ashley. Your home is the setting for your life's most cherished moments or book clubs. Multigenerational connections are at the core of the home, and it's not about having every detail perfectly designed. It's about creating a space where you can comfortably connect with friends, family, all of the above. And now is the time to write the newest chapter in your home story. Ashley is dependable with a modern feel. As you can see, offering well-crafted, affordable pieces built to stand up to real life with great looks that are made to last. I am the biggest fan of Ashley. If you're looking at this with your eyes right now, my gorgeous green Revion Lakes sofa and loveseat is just, oh, chef's kiss. The gorgeous olive color and the fabric itself, the velvet feels so nice on your hand. And whenever I bring people up to the Pod Lab, they're like, honey, where is this furniture from? It's, it's giving upscale. It's giving Class A. And I say, honey, it's from Ashley. They helped me refresh this whole space. Plus, Ashley provides fast, reliable, white glove delivery right to your room of choice.

Visit your local Ashley store or head to ashley.com to find your style. Was there anything in any of these 3 that fictional Richard did that real Richard would never do?

Hmm. That's a great question. And I didn't say I washed the dishes or anything like that. I joked about, oh, you know what? My son would be like, yeah, walk the dog. And that's BS. I walk the dog, just not as much as they do.

All right.

Like, I was walking the dog when I found the garbage bag containing certain things becoming the book. Boogeyman. Okay. Because people still drive by my house, by the way. Oh, really? And take pictures of the fire hydrant. Oh my God. That I was next to.

Are you serious? Yes. Oh, that's so funny.

That's funny. I'll be mowing the lawn and someone will slow down and they're rubbernecking and I'm just like, oh, God.

Like, hey, so you wrote the book.

Which is why Kara hates that I— she's like, you had to write about real people. Okay. Did you have to write about our real house? I'm like, yes, I really did. I had to buy in as much as the reader.

Write what you know. Right.

Yeah. I mean, I could make up a house. I've done it in every other book.

Yeah.

I'm like, but for this book, it had to be me. I had to be going through this. So, yeah, it had to be our house. It had to be our 4 dogs. It has to be the kids. It's just the only way I could do it. Whether it's just that whole belief thing that I talked about or whether I'm not a good enough writer to fake it this time, I don't know. But I knew it when I was writing the introduction to Chase. So, yeah, it's our house. It's our fire hydrant. The fence in the picture where they said the boogeyman's back, that someone spray painted on there. Yes, that's our real fence. When Billy and I spray painted it with water washable paint, we actually had 2 people stop. One said, do you want me to call the police?

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

Somebody else said, did you get vandalized? And we had to tell them.

Stop. You're like, no. You're like, no, but buy my book.

Would it be cool if we did? Kara's, like, watching in the back.

She's like, no, it would not be cool.

She's like, I knew this was going to be a spectacle. Yeah, exactly.

She'll come home and she'll be like, yeah, I saw so-and-so in the grocery store. I haven't seen them forever. But she knows where we live. She knows what our house looks like. She's driven by. She talks about, oh, I drive by 2, 3 times a week.

Oh my God. That's my worst nightmare. That's so scary.

Wow. Well, and the thing is, is I'm very private. That's why. I mean, even my agent was shocked when I turned the book into her and I said, and by the way, I'm the main character. She's constantly— well, not so much now, but in the beginning she was constantly saying, you should go to this convention, you should go to this. I'm a home guy.

Yeah. Oh, we relate to that so heavily.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love staying home.

Yeah, same.

I would give anything for COVID not to have happened, but it really didn't affect my life that much.

Agreed.

Yeah. And Kara will be the first to tell you, we were so lucky because we've got some property, we've got a a pretty little pond. And it's just like we had our own little place.

You have your own little, like, yes, what you need there.

Yes. And, and, and I, uh, I mean, I felt guilty thinking that cuz I'm just like, I'm good. Yeah. You know, I, I, and then you think about the people who weren't good because they were crammed into a tenement house or apartments. Right. But, um, yeah, I just, uh, again, it was the only way I knew how to do it. And, and the fact that people drive by and do that, I'm gonna put a little free library in front of our house.

Oh, that's a great idea.

I'm like, you know what? I'm just, I'm just embracing it. Make it worth it. Yeah. You know, I'm like, I'm gonna embrace it. I, uh, it, it's a cool way to honor somebody who was really important in my life. I'm gonna put a little plaque on the side and yeah, that's awesome. And honor this person and I'm gonna have a lot of, you know, weird fiction in there. Yeah.

You should make it like horror themed. Yeah. Yeah. And I have a whole— this is the horror library.

Yeah. The whole thing. So they can stop their car and safely take a picture of the, uh, fire hydrant and also get a book while they're at it.

You know?

And get a book. Yeah.

Perfect.

And feel like it's worth it. There you go.

Just wave from the window.

Well, that's what Kara's like. You start looking in the windows.

Okay, that's when it's over. Need those blackout shades.

Yeah, I do write about it in great detail about our awesome security system with all the cameras.

Yes.

And I'm like, so hopefully that's enough to—

You're like, and that's real.

Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, do I have to put like, should I put like all these signs out saying? And I'm like, no, because when I was a kid, if I saw those, I'm like, you know, no trespassing. I'm like, challenge accepted.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's smart.

I'll just keep it low-key.

You're like, you just know I have cameras. I'll see you.

Yeah.

That's all. Now, the premise of the 3rd book, in Killing the Boogeyman, it kind of blows the doors off of some of the reality that we get to know in the first 2 books, because I feel like there's a little bit of a suggestion that the killer has become a little more than human, almost. And how much did you want to push the reader into asking or considering whether the Boogeyman was literally supernatural?

I wanted to push them just to the— right to the edge of that blurry line.

I feel like you did.

And I tried to put enough subtleties in there. And some readers are probably going to laugh because I use subtlety in regards to the Boogeyman books. But yeah, I wanted to take them right there, but leave some hints that maybe what they're seeing isn't so reliable in a lot of ways. But again, it was coming from a place of the boogeyman really can be Ted Bundy.

Yeah.

Or the boogeyman could be Michael Myers. And in a lot of ways, he's both. Yeah. And there's some direct kind of nods to the Halloween series in the third book. And that was on purpose.

Yeah.

And I was prepared to fight for those in case, like, with Widow's Point, I know my editor said a couple of times in the margin, this is a little Blair Witch-ish. And Billy and I are like, thank you.

That's where we want to go.

Yeah, yeah, we're like, and you know, if the reader thinks that, more power to them.

Yeah, that's fine.

You know, I'm not trying to invent the wheel here. And, and I felt the same way. But, uh, yeah, I just— I, I, to me, like, I wouldn't be surprised if somehow, you know, they went back after all these years and examined Ted Bundy's DNA and he wasn't quite human. Yeah, honestly, I'm waiting for that. Yeah. the Green River Killer. Yeah. And you guys were fired up, which I loved. Yeah. All about, you know, the guy because he's this wormy looking— oh, it's just like, how did he do everything he did? Now part of it's because he did look the way he did.

Yeah.

Yep. But that's why, like, I, I like talking about Joshua Gallagher and the fact that, you know, some of the small things like how, how big his hands are and things like that, because— and I like playing with things like, you know, his you know, he looks taller and his, you know, his, his measurements changed. Yeah. Or, or was it just a bored, you know, physician that day at the prison who copied it down wrong? Right. Those kind of things. And I just, I liked playing with it. Yeah. You know, I mean, some people think, you know, Michael Myers is stupid because he gets up and he, he never runs and he just chases you like that. But to me, scary. You're the believer. I'm terrified.

Yeah.

You know, so it's, it's the Boogeyman books. I always just say, you know, it is again, it's another campfire story.

Mm-hmm.

It's a throwback to really traditional storytelling. And the fact that in the last one I kind of got to blur the lines a little bit was fun.

I loved it because it's true that you think of Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker or something. He was a literal boogeyman.

Oh, he really was. Teeth and all.

And for how long they couldn't catch him. And then it's like, and the way he got caught was awesome.

I love that.

The entire neighborhood just chased him down.

That's my favorite.

Yeah. They just chased him down and beat the shit out of him. But oh yeah, the best ending. And that's a neighborhood.

I want to belong to that community.

Yeah. And who was this? The, the, the big one, the, uh, Sacramento— Ed Kemper?

No. Oh, the Golden State Killer.

Oh, yes. The fact that he would sneak into some of the houses and leave things and take time in there and eat dinner, eat food.

Yep. Yes. And like, oh, and leave things like to make things easier.

Yeah. The length of rope. Yeah.

Like in the couch and like, that is supernatural. Or that he would stack the dishes.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's like there's sometimes— and you can't imagine somebody that evil being all human, right?

It's so non-high-tech, right? Yeah, like, I love The X-Files when it's, you know, when it got techie sometimes. And because again, you know, for me it's like all magic. Yeah, the simplest technology. But, and, and there are those, you know, books that do that really well. Um, for me, this is more about, you know, if you're scared of the sound of a screen being removed from a window When you're laying in bed. Oh, that to me, that's the things that scare me. So that's why I say it's more traditional. So it's, it's, I think those are the people who, you know, are going to relate to the books in a really strong way.

For sure. Now, as you're kind of like creating the plots and the mysteries within each plot, how do you decide what is, you know, like what mystery deserves an answer or which mystery is almost scarier because it's left unresolved?

Yeah, that's like a really good question.

Thanks.

Usually I just get the, hey, hey, you dork, you didn't answer the questions of what the numbers meant and those kind of things.

No, sometimes it's scarier.

It's from reading so many true crime books, especially about, you know, people, you know, that phrase hunting humans has always been terrifying to me. Yeah. But people who do that and the fact that no matter, no matter if they're caught, they're prosecuted, they're, you know, removed from society, there's usually— it's never usually super neat with a bow tie on the end, no matter how good the detectives are or the police. So I always want some things to go unexplained. Yeah. And I think it's scarier that way.

I think I do too.

And it's like the Blair Witch, right? Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I know some readers hate it. I know some writers don't like it, and they always want to provide that explanation.

Yeah.

And I swear it's like actually one case where I'm not being lazy. Because there are other cases where I'm like, I could research this, but I'm just going to make it up. But yeah, so it's usually not a set thing. Like, I knew I wasn't going to explain anything at the end of Chasing the Boogeyman about that, even though I never knew there was going to be a sequel. When I started writing the sequel, I thought, okay, well, I'm going to answer everything.

There you go.

And I even remember telling Billy, I'm like, you need to start brainstorming because Dad's old and tired.

I got to answer these mysteries.

So then I remember I think I did a chapter that was like the something of numerology, and I thought, oh, I'm going to answer it here. But as I started writing it, I realized, no, I'm not.

Yeah, I don't want to answer that. It's too fun.

I'm not a big outliner, so I always just say, I honestly let the story gain momentum, and then I kind of just grab onto the story's— the tail of its shirt.

So you're like a pantser and let it pull me?

Yeah. All right. For the most part.

Now, with Chasing, And when I got like 75, 100 pages in, the ideas and the memories started coming back so fast that I was like, I need to write that down. I need to write that down. And then what I found out was I'm like, no wonder people like to outline, because it gave me this roadmap that I could follow. And I'm not super neurotic about sticking to it, which I know is a negative for people who do outline sometimes. So I was like, I wrote it so fast because I knew where I was going.

Yeah.

But I've never really done that again since.

That was the only one.

It's a miracle I can finish anything.

See, I lightly outline. I give the bones of what I want to happen, but I never stick fully to it.

You're like a combo of cancer and planner.

It changes as I go. So I end up with the bones of one, and then by the end of it, it's like—

Do you know the ending or no? Because I don't know what the ending is.

I don't always know the ending.

Okay, good.

That makes me happy. Yeah. In fact, right now, I'm in the middle of writing one. I don't exactly know the ending.

She always wants to tell me the ending. I'm like, I want to read it.

I know, because I'm like, you and John are the only 2 people, like my husband and Ash are the only people that I'm like, read this, tell me if it's okay.

And I usually like to, but now that you're so much more established, I'm like, no, no, no, I want to get these points.

I want to read it with everyone else.

Yeah, I want to feel the excitement.

So now it's just John that I can give it to.

Yeah, Philly is mine. Again, the people who have entire reading groups and things, I'm like, that's alien to me.

Yeah, I couldn't do that.

And I don't want that because it would just be like, 6 different instances of me getting mad all over again.

Yeah, exactly.

Even if you're right.

Yeah.

I'm like, it's an emotional rollercoaster once.

Yeah. Right? That's why Jon is like my Tabby from Stephen King and Tabitha, because it's like, I will give him a chapter and he'll be like, hey, so this actually doesn't make sense what you wrote. And I'm like, yeah, you're right. That actually doesn't make sense.

You're like, damn it, thank you.

He'll be like, or you said this, but then you said this after this.

Yeah.

So it's good to be able to have that before I can pass it to an editor. Because it's just a couple of things I don't have to worry about them being like, hey, that doesn't make sense.

Yeah, you need that trusted person.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's always nice when the editor actually thinks you're kind of smart.

Exactly. I'm like, this makes me look a lot more competent than I actually am.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh.

Now, was there a scene in any 3 of the books that you finished writing it and you were like, all right, that was fucked up even for me?

The mannequin scene that I describe in Chasing the Boogeyman that the detective tells him when I ask him what's the creepiest thing. That row home full of mannequins, including one on the toilet, one in the shower. I think 2 of them were making love on the bed. It just felt so perverse. And people have asked me, they're like, all right, you have a thing about mannequins because they pop up in 2 books. And there's mannequins in Widow's Point.

Widow's Point. That actually is one of the scariest parts.

Mannequins are so scary.

That was scary to write.

That part scared the shit out of me in Widow's Point.

It bugged me. It bugged me. That's why I thought Widow's Point might be scary. You never know. But I just felt like— I'm like, there were enough scenes where I gave it to Billy or he gave it to me and we said to each other, that freaked me out. Some of the scenes on the catwalk where he turned around and they had all moved and different things like that. I was like, oh man, that happens to me, I might just be diving off the side.

Honestly?

Yeah, I would do the same.

Yeah. I mean, that mannequin scene bothered me. There's a scene, again, involving a mannequin in the second book, in my own home, where it's just boom. And again, I don't want to give anything away, but it's somewhere where it absolutely shouldn't be.

Mm-hmm.

And I realize it, and then a split second later, there's an action scene as a result of it. But it's just And then just writing about the victims. I mean, like I said, I've read a lot of true crime. There's not a lot of active blood. I don't describe it happening, but describing some of the wounds and the bruises and the fact that they were young women. And again, I grew up with 3 sisters.

Yeah.

And yeah, it bothered me and it made me feel like, okay, maybe think twice about ever wanting to be a true crime. We actually had someone, I think it was 2 years ago. We live in this little town called Bel Air, and it's got a main street. It's, you know, it's a nice little town. And there's a walking trail that I used to run on, and we walk the dogs and we used to walk our kids there. And a woman was— a young woman was murdered there, I think 2 years ago. And there was talk of like a serial killer. And, you know, I was like, oh man, I can't. put anything at signs out for, like, the Boogeyman signings and all this stuff. And it was extra weird because she had sent me a Facebook invite, like, a few months before she was murdered. Oh, wow. I never accepted it because I had too many and I didn't know who she was and all that. But that really struck home. So again, I was writing about people that were make-believe, but in ways that people had been written about before.

Yeah, right. It's weird when it becomes Too close.

Too close to home. That's happened to us.

It makes me think of the Gabby Petito case.

Yeah.

Yes.

That happened. One of her posts on her Instagram was her listening to Morbid. And then when it happened, I was like, and we, everybody was asking us to cover her case and we were like, uh, like, so we just didn't. 'Cause I was like, I don't, like, I don't feel right doing that right now.

Yeah.

Like we will eventually just to make sure that her story is told. But at the time it was like, Oh, that's really close to— that's too close. That felt weird.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, definitely. Well, speaking about that, what do you think that horror fiction can say about murder that true crime can't necessarily?

Man, you guys are good. We've done this a few times. I'm used to just being on the end. I just push the button and give my answer. But I don't even know if I can answer that specifically, what it can give you that true crime can. I mean, Because think about it, as wild as our imaginations are, real people, there's stuff that has been— again, listening to your podcast, you were talking about the Green River and some of the stuff that was left on one of the bodies.

Yes, that particular one.

And the stones.

Yep.

Which I won't go into detail about right now.

Horrific. But You couldn't conjure that.

You would never make that up.

Yeah.

Or if I did, it would be one of those things that haunted me.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I'd be like, well, because I do come from a place of innocence with this. None of my friends know I'm a big kid. They were shocked when they read my stuff for the first time. Even though I was always the scary guy, they're like, you're the pain in the ass. You're the big kid who's joking and pranking us, and you're writing about— where is this dark stuff coming from? I, uh, I come from a place where, you know, if I, if I did think of that stone, something like that, it, it would bother me for a while. And then, but there's just, there's no real connection to my world there. It's just make-believe. It's like the boogeyman. But again, I believe in the boogeyman.

Yeah.

It just takes— he just assumes many different identities and faces. So yeah, I, that's the thing. I, I feel like there's so much stuff, and, and if we had a pair of homicide detectives. Uh, a guy I fish with, um, he's a fishing guide. His name's Kenny Penrod, and he's a retired homicide detective.

Oh, wow.

So the cool thing is, is when we fish, we get to talk about so many different things. I was gonna say, I bet if he was sitting here, he would— and I had him answer that question, he'd be like, well, that's, you know, true crime, real life blows anything you guys can make up. Oh yeah, away. Because some of the most vile, disgusting not remotely entertaining, even in a fascination. Yeah, fascination. Um, you know, just, you know, seasoned horror reader or viewer way would— you know, the movies that they talk about that go too far?

Yeah, we always talk about that.

Yeah, they've happened. Yeah. And worse. Yeah. And, and yeah, and I don't know how they do those jobs. I've always said, you know, I feel like I'd be a decent, you know, detective like that, but I would be Unfortunately, I'd probably be the guy who was drinking as a result of it and everything else because I couldn't get rid of it.

Yeah, it's tough.

Even just not even— obviously we're not detectives, but even talking about the story sometimes it's like hard to come down from that.

Yes. Yeah. There's been a couple like the Moors murders.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, they— that, that was really heavy for a while. I was like, we need to do some like spooky stuff for a few weeks because I need to get this out of my head.

Yeah. We like to go paranormal if we, if we cover a really intense case.

Yeah. And I mean, I worked in the morgue for like years, so I did autopsies. And sometimes there would be certain, like, especially if we did kids or like babies where it would like, I would come home to my kids and be like, like, I know that somebody lost theirs. Yeah. Like it would ruin me a little bit. So that's the only part that like people will be like, do you miss the morgue? And I'm like, I do. 'Cause I loved that job, but not that side of it. But that was the part that I don't know if I could have kept doing.

Well, that's because, look, you know, someone like me who has a huge imagination, I can't imagine what a child looks like. I've never seen a, you know, a deceased child, um, so I can't imagine what up close that looks like, and especially if it was, you know, by violent means or anything like that, or an accident or something. So, so I— yeah, so when I see a, you know, a healthy child, which I've seen, you know, thousands of, I don't have that ability to see the other side of it, so I can't imagine that.

It's awful.

Yeah. And that's how I feel like I would be, because the way my brain works, I would see it all the time.

That's the thing. I would have trouble getting rid of that. That's even like crime scene photos that we've accidentally stumbled across, or when you Google something, those are hard to get out of your head. There's still crime scene pictures that will flash in my head.

Yeah. And ones that I wasn't looking for. Like, I was just searching for, like, research. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's— it's such—

I mean, like I've said, you know, that— and that's something I learned really early on, is there's the true crime books which are done, you know, that should never have been published. Yeah, yeah. A lot of them. Yeah. Yes, they very much— and then there's the ones that are done with dignity. And my answer to the scariest book I've ever read for a long time was, uh, Ann Rule's The Stranger beside me. Oh my God.

Yeah.

Because the scene with the pieces of wood in the sorority house, those are the kind of details that made me want to be a writer because I realized you can implant that in a reader's head and they'll never forget it.

That'll stick with them.

Or in that moment, it'll transport them to that place.

Yeah.

And that's what Stephen King's work did for me, those little details.

Oh yeah.

So when I read that book, and this really happened, I still don't see a stack of firewood to this day and not think of it.

No, you think of that.

Yeah. I'm like, damn it. So yeah.

That's the thing with the Moors murders. One of the things was during one horrific situation, Little Drummer Boy was playing.

Oh, like the Christmas song.

And now I can't hear it. I can't hear it. I think there's an episode of The Office, and we always watch The Office to chill out, and Little Drummer Boy plays.

Not this one episode.

Can't do it. I'm like, you got to turn it off. I can't do it. But those things will stick with you, those tiny little details.

Oh, they do.

And see, and I love the fact— I was going to say it ruined it for you. Yeah. And I hate that. Like, I have examples of that also. But as a writer, I don't know if you feel the same way.

When it's fiction.

Yes. I love the fact that I've ruined things for people.

Yes. That's fun. That's fun.

I love the fact that I have people who say they're scared to take their garbage out.

Yes.

I have people who say, my spouse, because of you, my spouse hates you because they have had to accompany me or take the garbage out for the last 2 years. Or my dog loves you. because now I take my— I leash up my dog and I take him out and he gets an extra little nighttime walk.

Right. I love that.

Yeah. I'm like, right on.

That's the thing.

Yeah.

That's a win.

That's a win. When people tell me I've ruined certain songs for them, I'm like, cool.

Thank you.

I love that.

Yeah.

So different. But speaking, actually, you mentioned Stephen King again, and I have to ask, how did that begin, co-writing with Stephen King?

Yeah.

Show me your ways. Your guess is as good as mine. Show me your ways.

Yeah. I mean, You know, I started, you know, my magazine Cemetery Dance back in 1988 when I was in college. And from day one, I sent up the first issue, the second issue, the horrible looking first, second, third issue, all of that up to his office in Bangor. Got to know his assistant really well, a woman named Shirley first and then Marsha. And they were the sweetest ladies in the world. You know, they knew I was young and naive and, you know, doing my best.

And they were like, sure, we'll pass these on.

Yeah. But they really did.

Yeah.

That was '88. In '91, Stephen King sent me an original story, Chattery Teeth. I'll never forget it. Kara will remember. We lived newly married. We were living in an apartment, and I get a postcard from a guy named Chuck Varell, who was Steve's editor slash agent. And it said, I think it said to the effect, a month ago, I sent you a manuscript, Chattery Teeth by Stephen King. He's a big fan of Cemetery Dance and would love to see it appear. And we wondered if you'd had a look at it yet.

I'm just like—

Wow.

What? No. In my closet, I had a stack of unsolicited submissions about 3 or 4 foot high. I sprinted down the hallway, flinging them everywhere. Found it. No wonder I didn't know it came from Stephen King, because the label on it was Chuck Varell, New York. Oh, my God. Yeah. Rip it open. It's this 30-page original story. I read it sitting on the floor. I go hug her. We're like, tears. Seriously, I'd be bawling.

That's next level.

I write him back right away, tell him, You know, um, and I'll never forget it because we then went to an Oriole game. We're probably celebrating, you know, no money. We're probably like, we're spending $20 tonight. Oh, hell yeah. A little large, you know. Um, came home and there's a message on my answering machine from Stephen King saying, um, Alina's gonna have heart palpitations. Yeah. I can't tell you how happy I— how pleased I am that you liked it and that I'm gonna be in Cemetery Dance. You do a great job. And that's awesome. I'm a big fan. I just popped out the little microcassette that? Put in a new one. I still have it.

Yeah, you're like, this is probably—

I haven't played it in years, but I still have it. Oh, that's great. It has S and a K on it. So that's what started it. And then just the progression over the years, more stories, and then eventually books. At some point, he was— you talk about his assistant. We were invited to his 25th anniversary— no, 20th anniversary of Carrie party. Oh my God. It was at Tavern on the Green in New York City. Very Stephen King-ish in that the invite said, PS, jeans and t-shirts are fine. Nice. I wasn't bold enough to do jeans and t-shirts, but it meant I didn't have to wear a tie, which made me happy.

A+.

Went up there. That's the first time I met him. And then it was just like a natural progression. At some point, he texted me about, I think, an Oriole or Red Sox or something. And I remember looking at Karen going, does that mean I'm allowed to text him back?

Feels like it's okay now.

It's like, is this really Steve? Come on, Brian. But it's 207.

It's a main area code. Yeah. You're like, this is him.

So at some— yeah, at some point that the business relationship turned into like this genuine long-distance friendship. And then eventually, you know, we saw some baseball games together. He wanted me to— I was down in Sarasota for a film festival. He wanted me to come to his house and show him the short film I was showing and— oh my God. Different things like that. And then I got, you know, He invited us to the main premieres of his movies up there, so the kids got to meet him. And, and, and then at some point, I mean, never in a million years did I ever— the fact that I published them and was friends with them was mind-blowing.

Of course.

Oh yeah.

And, and, but at some point we— and we email about everything, but rarely business, and text a lot. I mean, it's more about the dogs, sports, books, movies. Um, again, some things that would probably, you know, not be socially acceptable.

Yeah, you're like homies at this point.

Yeah. And, um, at some point I asked him about, uh, round robin projects, like the kind where you have like 6 or 10 different authors and each one writes a chapter or something. And he wrote back— this was via email— he wrote back, said, you know, those never really interest him because he doesn't feel like they're very successful. But, you know, collaborations are a different thing, and Um, in, in that email thread, he mentioned that he had a story called Wendy's Button Box that he'd never been able to finish. And I said, oh, I'd love to read it, meaning I would just love to read it. And because we're friends, sometimes I get the cool, you know, thing of getting to read manuscripts. And I was just like, I'd like to read the story that Stephen King can't finish.

Oh yeah, hell yeah.

That was the end of it. I still remember we were driving to Noah, my youngest son's basketball game, went in the basketball game, forgot all about Next morning I wake up to an email that has Gwendy's Button Box attached and it says, this is the whole email, do with it as you wish.

Wow.

So I remember thinking—

What does that mean?

Well, I said, well, I can't publish it. Sometimes they'll send me a story unsolicited and say, you have something you can use this for.

Yeah.

Right.

And I'm like, well, I can't publish this. So what does he mean? So I just wrote him back again, the greenhorn. I'm like, what do you mean? You want me to finish it? Not thinking anything about that. But thinking probably in my brain that, you know, of course that's not what he means. Yeah. But what, what else? You know, that's a natural response. So he came back and he says, if you think you can. So I, that was a Friday. And I remember—

Seriously, I'd be like, okay.

I, I didn't tell. Yeah. I'm like, okay, I'm doing it. But I, but I also knew what it meant. So I didn't tell. Yeah. I didn't tell anybody until that Sunday. And then I remember I told Kara, and I remember I went in, the boys were watching TV and, and, you know, they knew who Stephen King was. Yeah. And Billy had read a lot of his work. And I'm just like, so I'm gonna write a story with Stephen King.

What do you guys think of that?

Yeah. I sat down to, to write some notes about it on Monday, and of course it mentions Castle Rock in the very first sentence.

Yep.

So I'm like, not only am I writing about Stephen King, but I'm in flipping Castle Rock.

Yeah. You're like, oh, this could not be better.

So that's, that's how it started. It's like this happy accident.

Yeah. That's so organic.

Of— yes. It's like, yeah, I never would've asked in a million years.

Yeah.

Never. Like, at that point I wasn't even asking like, hey, can I publish a limited of your new book? Because I felt like he knows what I do. If he wants me to do it, yeah, he'll say it. He'll say it every once in a while. I had what I thought was a brilliant idea. And I'm like, hey, Steve, what about if we do this? And, you know, most of them were just like, nah, you know, like, all right. Not like, not like an official, you know, it was never an official proposal. And it was never an official response. It was more like, nah, yeah, just throw it. Not this time. Yeah, maybe later. You know?

Yeah.

So yeah, I sat down to write notes on a yellow pad. And I just— I'll never forget, my hand was shaking and I was just like, this is ridiculous. I'm terrified. Yeah. I opened it. I opened his file and I just started writing. And like, 2 days later, I had like 10,000 more words, which is a lot for me.

Yeah, I'm sure.

And I just remember thinking, okay, now I'm going to go back and I'm going to clean it up and I'm going to make this the best thing in the world. And I just thought, and if I do that, I'm never going to send it. Yeah. So I got one read through and I hit send. And I probably did one of these. My mom was very happy, wherever she is. And he liked it, and he wrote a little bit more and sent it back. And I wrote the original ending. He actually wrote back and said, Rich, this is too dark. Which I thought—

What a compliment.

I would tattoo that on me.

I'm dying to find that in my files, in my computer.

You have to find that.

Because I'm like, one day I want to ask him, can I print it as a chapbook? Yeah. The ending that was too dark. for Stephen King. Yeah, but he was right because none of the sequels would've been possible with my ending. Oh, okay. Yeah. And he told me later, he goes, I just knew Gwendy deserved better. And I'm like, you were so right. Yeah. So that's how it came about. And I had the COVID really quickly. We told no one. We put it in production and stuff. And I just remember walking around with it and I would call up the COVID on my cell phone like 3 times a day. And I mean, I got a lump in my throat talking about it right now. Yeah. Yeah. I would just look at it and I'd be like, how is this my life?

You're like pinching yourself.

Seriously. Yeah. I'm like, uh, I would be the same way.

Like the same way.

It's like the ultimate honor for authors like you guys. Yeah. Or just any author, I think.

Because I think we, we sent Stephen King's like off at like his people. Mm-hmm. The first book we sent him, The Butcher and the Wren, which I was like, oh God. And we sent him that one. That's my first regret. I was like, why did we do that? Why didn't we wait? And I think we got a nice note back that was like, he didn't have time at the time to read it, which, he's Stephen King. But I was like, maybe he knows I exist though. He might. Because then he was number 1 on the New York Times list when I was number 2. And I was like, he might have seen my name next to his.

Yeah. You're on the top. He absolutely did.

I hope he knows who I am. your name in that moment.

I hope so.

I hope so.

Yes, exactly.

That's what I want.

Again, an honor.

That happened to me once where I wasn't nowhere near number 1 or 2, but we were both on it at the same time. And again, it was one of those moments where it was just like, you're sharing the list.

How is that even possible?

Just the whole thing. But yeah, people ask me about that and I'm just like, look, it's ridiculous. I have no idea how it— if there's any proof that magic really does You know, exist in this world. That's it. Because I am just— I'm the constant reader. I still have Stephen King books inscribed to me by my sisters because they were Christmas or birthday presents. Oh, yeah. I know how much you love this writer. And I have them up on my shelf right next to the ones inscribed to me by Steve. And I'm just like, so, I mean, you know, I'm going to get cheesy here for a second, but I'm a 2-time cancer survivor.

Oh, wow.

And when I was 29 and when I was 30, And I always just felt like, you know, there was reasons— there were reasons there why I made it. And for a while you have that survivor's guilt because you're just like, you know, why me and not all these other amazing people that you've met or you've read about and all that? But I've always felt like first and foremost, okay, I, I would— I survived to be a father because that— I always wanted to have children. And even when Kara and I were high school sweethearts, we're always like, oh, one day we're gonna get married and have kids. And I think back then I was like, 5 kids.

And that dwindles down.

Yes. And I just— it's been the best thing in the world for both of us. I mean, we say it all the time. Oh, yeah. You know, that's it. If at the end, if there's nothing else said other than we were a good mom and dad, then that's right on. Yeah, that's it. And I just felt like, you know, maybe this was one other thing that was a gift waiting for me. I'd say that was on the back end, for sure, because I have no other way to explain it. I should have— I've asked his assistant, Marsha. I'm like, why the hell were you always so nice to me? I tell her she's like my guardian angel, and she's just like, well, you never had— she's just like, you kind of stood apart from a lot of people who always asked him things because you never had a sense of entitlement. Like, how dare he say no? You're always just like you said ahead of time, he's got no reason to say yes to this, but I'm going to ask it anyway.

Yeah, right.

Like genuine, just like—

And, and again, and then hand in hand with Steve, he's told me at some point, he's just like, I always knew you were doing this for the right reasons. Yeah. I made no money in my 20s. Kara will verify that. Um, it wasn't until the middle of my 30s where I was publishing a lot of books that it started becoming a real business. Yeah. Um, so I, I really was always doing it because I loved it. Yeah. And because I couldn't, I don't know what else I would've done. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so, so yeah, when I, when I look at it like that, I'm just, I, I'm just grateful.

Yeah.

I tried to, you know, I tell my boys that all the time. I'm like, live a life of gratitude because, because we're very lucky. We're very fortunate. And, um, there are people who work just as hard. I always get that, you know, the people who kind of, they don't want to hear that. Um, they don't want to hear the, you know, privilege and some of those things. And they're just like, well, you've worked really hard. I'm like, yeah, but you know what? There's a lot of people who've worked just as hard as I have. Yeah. And they haven't had that level of success. So, yeah, yeah. You're not gonna sell me on that idea. No.

I'm gonna wake up every day. I fully believe in luck. Like you have You have to be grateful for everything that you have right now.

Yep. Yep. And, and be willing to just do the work.

And, and people can sense that. Like, obviously Stephen King sensed that you were—

I think he sensed that I was just weird. I was just like, yeah, you know, just happy as hell to be doing what I'm doing. Yeah. Even though every income tax season I was like, you know, looking at Kara going, I made 47 cents an hour.

Yeah. You know?

And, and, but you know what? God bless her because again, there, there's a lot of partners who would've been like, it's time to go get a real job.

Yeah.

And there was never that. I mean, even my dad.

It's the real ones that stay.

I always say my dad, what a gift. He, he was ex-military and he was a very by-the-numbers guy. Go to college, get your degree, have a career. Mm-hmm. He never blinked when I said, well, this is gonna be my career, this ugly black and white magazine. And, and, and he helped me stuff flyers in envelopes and all that stuff. He never for a moment said, Rich, go get a real job. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I tell people, I'm like, you can't discount what having that kind of faith and support in your corner will do for you.

Oh yeah, it's so true.

I'm like, I don't know if I would have given up if I didn't have people like Kara and my mom and my dad and my sisters and my friends. I mean, that's the cool thing about my friends too. Yeah, they remember all those stories. They remember when I was in my 20s and I used to say, no, vacations are for lazy people. And God bless Kara, she didn't divorce me. You know, we didn't go on vacation for I don't know how many years because I was Yeah. And I was like, I'm not going to go spend a ridiculously low amount now as an adult with a family. I'm not going to go spend $400 to go skiing. I can't. And God bless her. She's just like, well, she knew I had something. I had a vision of something. I love that. And so again, you talk about having a reason for gratitude.

Yeah. And it's rare, I feel like, to have people like that.

Especially in today's world where everybody has a complaint, especially online. And it's just like, and I think that's why I'm able to kind of digest the stuff online a little easier, because I'm just like, you're not going to affect me. Yeah. Because on a bad day, I can see Noah doing this, or I can take 4 dogs for a walk with Kara and come home to my 250-year-old house and just feel like, how lucky are we?

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Whatever it is that's bad will pass.

I feel that exact same way.

We're always saying that.

Yep. Which is awesome. When you find people like that, you kind of—

Well, you don't always find people like that.

No, that's what I'm saying. When you do, you bring them close because there's not a lot of people. And I mean, again, I'm the luckiest guy in the world with my friends. But yeah, some of them right now would be going, oh, here goes Kumbaya Rich, you know?

But you're like, that's why you love me. And that's why it works.

It is what it is. I can't pretend to be anything No, you have to.

Life would be really rough if you don't think that way.

So all that babbling came out of you saying, how did the Stephen King thing come along? But it's one more thing in that puzzle where I just feel like it all fit together for whatever reason. So, yeah, just very fortunate.

It feels very organic the way it happened.

It was. And that's the best thing about it. Yeah. And in fact, and then I'll shut up about it. Well, we did an interview for the audio version. The woman from Simon& Schuster who asked us the questions, she asked Steve, she said, why Rich? And I remember I kind of perked up at my desk.

Yeah, why me?

Yeah, why me? You're like, wait a minute. Because I never wanted to ask it. Yeah. And at some point, I'm sure I stopped thinking about it.

Yeah.

But I'm sure before that, I was terrified to ask. Yeah, right. And his answer was real matter of fact. He just said, well, I just finished reading A Long December, a collection of stories from Rich. He said, and he does everyday people so well in everyday settings. And I thought if anyone could finish Gwendy, it would be him. He writes about the kind of people who, you know, who go shopping and then on their way home stop and have dinner at Cracker Barrel.

Yeah.

Which is where I had breakfast this morning, by the way. And he just said, so I thought if anyone could finish Gwendy, it was him. And I just thought, oh, that's such a nice answer because I'm sure there's, you know, all these millions of people who are going, it's because they're friends, dummy, because you're not that good of a writer. Which is fine. Think that all you want. I mean, it's probably true, but it was cool to hear that answer that it's just like it just naturally came to his mind that, hey, he writes about people who are in this story. Yeah. So let's see if he can match this.

Yeah, that's actually a big compliment.

I was just going to say, what a compliment.

Well, that's what I was like. I was like, I owe that lady, like, flowers and candy.

You're like, thank you for asking.

I think to this day, I never would have asked him.

Yeah. And it would have been in your head, but it never would have come out.

Yeah. So it was cool that— I'm sure I hung on You know, I hung up when it was all done and I went in the house and like, he gave it to me because he thought if anyone could, it would be me. I told everyone I know that. I would include people like, you know, in line at 7-Eleven. And then, oh yeah, probably said he's a serial killer.

I put it in my bio.

I do the same things.

I would do the absolute same thing. I do that with Patricia Cornwell. Is one of my favorite authors. She's awesome. I always— I read her since I was like 13 years old. And when we got have her on the show and then she gave me a blurb for the book. I tell everybody. I'm like, oh. As you should. I will never get sick of telling everybody that.

And I love her because she's such a strong woman. She pisses some people off because she's so strong and the whole thing. She's badass. She's in a lot of ways, she's like Steve where she doesn't give a shit.

Yeah, she really doesn't.

What she says. And I like that.

They're cut from the same cloth.

Yeah. She literally is like Agent Starling. She talks like her. She sounds like her. She's awesome. Yep.

That's neat.

Yeah. So I would be the exact same way. I would never forget that. Now, our last question before we go into a quick would you rather to end is, are you actually killing the boogeyman?

Yes, no, maybe.

I love it. I like that.

Yes, no, maybe. That's a good answer. That's my answer.

It's a mystery.

And it's an honest answer.

Yeah.

So that's the thing.

I like that.

Yeah.

That's great. I like that. That leaves us with a lot.

I mean, that's what's the— The thing in the beginning, I can never remember what you call the little quotes that you put in the beginning, that front matter stuff. But I said, you can't kill the boogeyman Tommy from Halloween. Yes. And it's just like, in some ways, like I said, it's still that small campfire story. And it's still— Halloween's my favorite horror movie.

I love Halloween.

I think it always will be because of the nostalgia and just because it really does, in a lot of ways, defines me as a storyteller, which is Just, um, you know, I'm gonna try to show you as little as possible to scare you, but every once in a while I'm gonna jump you.

Oh yeah, I'm gonna give you a hit.

Yeah. And to me, the scariest scene from that movie is still Tommy looking out the window from the curtains and seeing him carry, oh, that body into that house. Because what he should have— and there's jack-o'-lanterns and stuff— because, you know, what you should be seeing are the falling leaves and maybe a passing car. Yep. Instead you see What should be the impossible and it's not. Yeah. You see the boogeyman. Yeah. That's it. You're the only one who saw it. So you're like, no, the boogeyman is real and everyone's telling you it's not. And, and I'll always be Tommy, you know? Yeah. So I might as well write it and, and make a living from it.

Yeah. Hell yeah. So you do it well. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. And now we have would you rather? Okay. To end it out.

We always finish on would you rather.

Always. This is where I get canceled somehow.

This is where, 'cause I'll try to be honest.

You're like, all right, I'm so You know, we can edit out whatever we need to.

Thank you. Yeah, it's true. Not live.

All right. Would you rather know exactly when you're going to die or exactly how you're going to die? We're starting off strong.

Yeah. Holy crap. Right out the gate. Right out the gate.

I thought you were gonna be like, would you rather have peanut M&Ms or—

Yeah. No, we go hard here. We go hard.

Um, I would rather, I, I guess I would rather know how.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't wanna know when I'm gonna die. I think so. I understand. You know, at this age I am thinking about death a lot. My wife's thinking about death a lot. And she's like, as a cancer survivor, I don't have the greatest insurance because they don't give it to you.

Oh, God, that's bullshit.

Yeah.

America.

Yeah. Just like, I got lots of books now. Come on, it's passive income. She's like, I don't care about that.

I agree, though.

Yeah. I don't want to know when.

No, I would never want to know that.

I mean, again, for someone with a wide open mind, the whole thing of thinking about what comes next is pretty freaky. And I've always been— I've always had faith that there's got to be more. There's got to be more. We can't just be here to do this dumb shit.

No, there's too much weird shit. Yeah.

And again, I remember telling Kara when we were like really young, just having those heavy discussions. And I just remember saying, there's been too many moments in my life that shouldn't have happened and where I've had, whether the feeling or the thought or whatever it is, that there's no way that I should have been capable of it. Yeah. So there has to be other things going on. I agree. That's, that's my thought. And whether it's, you know, to the pessimist who says, well, that's just your comfort thought. I don't have a lot of comfort thoughts. So if it is, it's a, it's a surprise. I just think it's, it's generally how I feel. Yeah. I agree with that.

No, I agree with that.

For sure.

Yeah. All right, this one's less heavy, but it's actually pretty relevant to what we were talking about earlier. Would you rather discover someone has been living secretly in your attic or discover someone has been coming into your house every night and leaving before you wake up?

Well, considering I've imagined both scenarios extensively, same. I would rather— yeah, I would definitely rather know that they've been coming in and going out.

Because I feel like you can put a stop to that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can definitely put a stop to it. And, um, yeah, I just— the idea that someone's been there when I've been there all the time and stuff is just too out there for me. Yeah, but I have imagined both.

I, I have too, often, actually.

Yeah, same. I think about that frequently. Yeah, but I'm going same answer. I don't need to know that you've been there the whole time. Yeah, I do weird shit.

You can even eat my food and stuff. I mean, I mean, you know, yeah, my chocolate ice cream stock can be somehow low and I can accuse Kara and it's fine.

Oh yeah, that's cool.

Yeah, whatever.

But you can't live up there.

No, no, no.

You got to pay rent.

Especially because the attic is really close to my bedroom.

That's the other thing.

Yeah.

You're not living up there.

No. And sometimes she actually leaves the latch, the locking latch unlocked. And I'm like, have you? I check the basement one and the attic one every night. Oh yeah. And I can't tell you. I can tell you this. Twice in the last like 2 weeks, the basement latch has been open and I'm like, what the hell are you thinking?

Oh no. Kara, come on. Yes.

How dare you?

I'm so glad I did. I made her sit in on this.

Oh, I'm like Fort Knox at night. John's always like, are you good? Like, we're fine. I'm like, nope. That's everything.

I double check everything. I double check every window.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Got the sensors on all the windows. Yeah.

We have, we have a great security system too. But for Father's Day, they're always like, we hate buying you presents because you're a kid. You go out and get whatever you want. I'm like, well, you know, a better security system.

Yeah. You can add, keep adding.

So add one on, more cameras, more. Yeah. That's a great idea.

I'm with you actually. Yeah. I love your camera. Oh, I love adding cameras.

Yeah. I have cameras all over this house.

I'm like the least like elitism person and I'm like, but I would like gates at the driveway. Oh, hell yeah. Like, yeah. I'm like, I would like that, the whole thing. And I'm like, be care— and you know, and that always leads to Rich, you would like to have a castle and a moat. And I'm like, I'm okay with that.

Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Let's, let's do it. I wanna be like Enya. Yeah.

Live in a castle. Live with my cats in Ireland. into the castle. Let's go.

Let's go. Yes. All right.

I feel like I might know the answer to this based off how we started. Would you rather spend one night in a genuinely haunted house like your own or one hour alone in the woods knowing a murderer is somewhere out there?

Oh, the haunted house. Not— because you're doing it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm doing it. And I just feel like there's, you know, at least with the ghosts, you can roll your dice that they're not going to mess with you. Right. They might be. They might even protect you. They do. And they're supposed to be friendly ghosts.

It's true. Yeah.

My first Halloween costume was Casper.

So I was just gonna say Casper. Yes, everyone remembers the reveal. Can I keep you? Can I keep you? Oh yeah, kill me. I showed my girls that recently. Oh, that's an awakening. Because I was like, this is a moment that you should have to see Devon Sawa at 10 years old. Yeah, like you should do that.

He's a big, uh, Chasing the Boogeyman fan. Oh my God, no way! He tweeted about it one day out of the blue and I was like, dude, that— how cool is that? I'm like, I'm like, I don't, I don't have starry eyes because of some of the movie stuff I've done and all, and I'm plus, you know, One of my best buddies is Jonathan Schaech, an actor. You realize really early on when you grew up with the guy that it's like, you have the smelliest feet and you fart more than anyone I know.

So you're real.

So it's like, yeah, I don't care that you were married to Christina Applegate. You're just like me, dude.

Incredible.

Yeah, absolutely. And through him, I got to meet a bunch of the others and they're the same way.

They're all real.

And some of the women are worse than the guys. So it's like none of that. But when he posted that, I was like, how cool is that?

Yeah, there's some that hit different.

Same thing. I'm like Casper, uh, Final Destination.

Yes. Oh, hell yeah.

Idle Hands.

Yes, yes, yes.

I think he followed me on Instagram and I talked about it for like—

I was jealous of that one.

I was like, he's a really nice guy. And I'm still like, why did you follow me?

I mean, he's a horror lover. Maybe he's into the books.

He is. He's a good dude. He's like, he's a family guy. He's a good dad. And, and, and the stuff he posts, I feel like is really honest, unlike some. So yeah, that's cool.

I had to repost it and write, can I keep you?

Valid.

I was like, I'm married.

That's the only appropriate response.

I feel like I have to write that.

My sister still remembered my Casper. Oh yeah. Thing. You know, one of those plastic masks with the elastic that hurt and the whole thing. And I remember biting onto the plastic so much and they're so sweet. But it didn't matter. They're like, you were so happy. It was your first trick-or-treating. And for me being who I am, I'm like, growing up trick-or-treating, there was nothing better. Oh no.

There was nothing. I do still love to go trick-or-treating with your kids. Yeah. I'm like, I'm not missing it. Oh, it's an event. We, and I dress up. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, Kara just told the story last week about how, you know, where we used to live was a regular neighborhood. And when speeders, we had big packs of us, parents and kids, and when we'd go through and anyone who was— I always had a huge pocket full of candy corn and I don't like candy corn, but any car that didn't slow down sufficiently when they were passing us got pelted. Got some candy corn. Candy corn. So you would hear like this machine gun. Nice. Then my friends started doing it and you would like, it was just, yeah. I love it. Yeah.

So that was my, there was your lesson.

That was my thing. I'm like, you can't speed near my kids. But no. Yeah. Halloween's still the greatest night. Yes.

Oh, it's my favorite holiday. Christmas is secondary.

Yeah. And you should be driving at like 1 mile an hour no matter where you are on Halloween. Yes.

I won't drive at all. I hate driving on Halloween. Oh yeah.

I'm too scared. I'm like, respect the holiday.

Yeah. I'm going to—

the only thing bad about our house is trick—

no trick-or-treaters come. Oh, really? Yeah. Because, you know, it's kind of spread out and yeah, across this road and no trick-or-treaters come. And I, every year I say, you know what, we are gonna make the greatest haunted house with everything out front. It's gonna attract, it's gonna attract trick-or-treaters. Yeah. And then I always think in the back of my head, but then they're gonna have to cross this road. And I'm just like, yeah, I'm just like, you know what? So she just— we were always the house that everyone came to, just like I wrote about in Chasing. Everyone came to— we had spaghetti and meatballs, we had salad, we had a big spread, and everyone came. And then the kids got older, stopped trick-or-treating, and we kind of stopped doing that. And then it was just like her family came over and she's just like, this year we're going to do it. We're going to have everybody over for Halloween. I'm like, yes. Yeah, it's the best.

Let's do it. I love that. I love it. All right, our next round of would you rathers is going to be writer hell. So this is, would you rather lose the first 50 pages of your current manuscript or the last 50 pages?

First.

That's what you said. Yeah.

Yeah. Only because by then I've gone over those 50 pages so many times to get to those last 50 pages that I can probably regurgitate it with some level of accuracy.

That makes sense.

That's the thing, because it just becomes like—

Because I've lost a lot of Like one-page things, like interviews that are done, Q&As that are done via email. Oh yeah. I've lost a lot of those and I've like verge of tears because I hate doing them.

Yep. Yeah.

And then you realize that, wait a minute, I remember. I can remember this.

Yeah. That's quick.

I know the end. I know me. I can answer that.

Yes. I can do this. So yeah, first page, first 50 for sure. Yeah.

You don't wanna lose any of those first 50.

And I'm gonna do the issue again.

Fingers crossed that doesn't happen. I was like, wait a minute. Yeah, exactly.

Would everybody lose anything?

Is it still on here?

All right, how about never be allowed to write horror again or only be allowed to write horror for the rest of your life?

I think never be allowed to, because I think that my definition, my boundaries of horror are pretty broad. Okay. I can write— I feel like a lot of— I wrote a novella called The Girl on the Porch, which is just very much Harlan Coben, John Sanford territory. It's suburban suspense, but everyone still calls it horror. Yeah. I still think Chasing the Boogeyman in a lot of ways is more of a thriller than it is a traditional horror novel.

It can kind of sit on both sides.

Yeah, I think it straddles. So yeah, I would continue to be this stubborn guy who was like, well, it's still horror. I mean, it's still horror because of blank.

There you go. It's like a cheat code. Yeah, I like it.

Yeah, that's a good way of saying it.

Yeah, that is. How about you?

I mean, you're a writer too. I was saying only be allowed to write horror for the rest of my life because I got scared with the never being able to again.

Yeah, but you found a cheat code now, so that's a good cheat code. I like it. Yeah, you're basically just saying the, the other answer.

That's the cool thing about horror is the rules are really—

Yeah, you can expand it.

And especially supernatural. I— again, Widow's Point is the only supernatural thing I've really written in at length. And again, I, you know Not the brightest. I just kind of hit myself in the head when I was done and I'm like, dude, why'd you wait this long? That's the cool thing about Supernatural. There really are no rules.

No. Yeah.

You can do this and you can do that. And I'm like, and with books like these, as you know, there are some pretty strict— you've got, if you want the reader to really be carried, you got to be logical.

Yes.

In a lot of places. With Widow's Point, we had none of that.

That's really fun.

And I just remember we had such freedom from that. And so that's why I want to go back to that world again at some point.

Yeah.

But yeah, I, You know, the only— yeah, I mean, Westerns, you know, I love Westerns, but I'm not going to write one. Too much research. I've got a romance in me somewhere. Really? I've got a love story in there somewhere.

Hey, I love that. All right.

I want you and Kara's love story.

I want to know all about it. You are. When you read the next one, you'll pretty much know. Perfect. Somebody said that in an Instagram comment recently. They're like, and especially they were talking about the characters, and especially Kara. I feel like I had such an insight to your relationship.

Yep.

And, and how she, you know, reacts to you. And I was just like, because I wrote— I definitely wrote about it, you know, half the time she's putting up with me and trying to rein me in and being like, no, that's really not a good idea, Rich. And those kind of things. So, um, yeah, even in the third book, I'm, you know, there's a lot of like, if I do this, she's gonna kill me.

Yep.

Um, but ultimately I have to.

Yeah, I gotta do it.

Yeah. So a lot of the stuff with Kara and I is just spot on where it's just like, you know, when you've known someone for How many years?

You're like counting in your head.

Like 45 years.

Really?

Yeah.

Wow. That's beautiful. I love love.

Maybe not quite 45, but close. And yeah, so yeah, yeah, I mean, just, you know, put a medal on her chest right now, God bless her. Because yeah, I'm a pain in the ass.

But you admit it. See, that's the good thing.

Yeah, you're a pain in the ass.

I am. Yeah, I am like the ultimate work In progress.

Not everybody knows they're a pain in the ass.

So that's a good quality. Yeah. Well, everybody should be aware. I always knew down deep. But yeah, it took me a while. And she does— she will describe me. She will say he is the most mature person I know and the most immature person I know.

That's my husband to a T. At least you got both.

That dynamic, you know? Yeah, that dynamic. I feel like that's gotta be a good thing, right?

Oh yeah. You don't want too much of either. You know, at least you get both.

I will say that I'm like, Imagine being married to a guy with patches on his elbows of his jacket, and he loves going to dinner parties and talking politics and this and this and this. And I'm like, you would kill him. You would strangle him in his sleep.

100%. 100%.

Yeah. And she's like, well, but I'd still like to. But if he didn't wear a hat everywhere and he didn't, you know, he didn't come out with, like, the worst off-color jokes at the worst time sometimes, that would be good too.

Keeps you on your toes, right?

Yeah. Would you rather write the greatest book of your career but nobody reads it, or write a book that you secretly think is the worst of your career and have it become your most successful?

I'd rather write the greatest book. Yeah. Because, yeah, I mean, when I turn a book in, like I said, I'm not one of those writers who's like, everyone's going to love it. Oh yeah, yeah. I am just like, again, hopefully if they hate it, hopefully they don't hate it until they bought it. Yeah, they don't figure that out before they've actually—

I get the sale cashed in.

Um, it really is like, I, I always say that, I'm like, all right, this is the best I could do right now, so I'm happy with it. Yeah. And that same thing when I do that final edit, I tried to teach Billy, you know, I'm like, look, you're going to edit right until the very end, either copy edit, and then you're gonna, you know, get the design pages. And I said, and then you're gonna freak out because you're gonna realize Because I just sent back 350 pages with marks on 110 of them.

Yeah.

And they're going to print next week. And I'm like, that's why I don't read them when they come out. And I'm like, because I don't want to know what I would change. And I'm just like, yeah. So when I'm the happiest I can be with it at that point, then I'm done. And I just say, hey, if the readers respond to it, that's wonderful. If they don't, that's okay. There's going to be another one. And some writers don't believe that. They're like, I don't believe it. And I'm like, I genuinely feel that way. Yeah. Which is, again, a gift.

Yeah. It's how you have to go into it, I feel like.

But I feel like so many writers tell me otherwise, and I'm just like, well, then I'd hate to be in your shoes because I would never be happy with anything, and I would always be kind of looking over my shoulder at what I should have done differently. And I'm just like, Billy, when Billy does appearances with me, he literally is like, Dad, you need to pick up the book so you remember the characters' names and stuff. Because I'm like, who cares? Ask me that. Do you have to refresh yourself on any of the Boogeyman stuff? I'm like, it's me. No. And finally, in this case, I don't.

Yeah, I know.

That was the genius of it.

I remember the detective's name and everything else and Carly and all that. I'm like, yeah, thank God. But with other books, yes. I'm like, oh my God. And readers are like, how can you do that? I'm like, they're gone, man. I'm like, I'm onto the next world now.

Well, you read them like 100,000 times during the editing process, but by that time you're like, I don't I want to read it again. Well done.

So if I genuinely felt like I wrote the best book, I would be so happy.

Yeah.

And if no one read it, I'd be like, that's all right.

That's how I feel, because I'm like, I would just be like, well, that's my favorite book. Is what it is. It's fine because I wrote it and it's here and it exists. Yes.

Whatever.

Yeah, I get it. I would feel that exactly.

And Kara goes through that phase with me too, where it's just like, you know, how is it going? It's fine, it's fine, it's fine, it's all right. You know, I don't know if anyone's gonna it. And then when I am finally ready to turn it in, she's always overjoyed at the, you know what? I like it. I like it. I'm okay with it. So hopefully they like it. If they don't, I like it.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I always— Jon always loves when I get to that point. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's moments where I'll wake up and reread what I wrote, and there's some days that I'll look at it and I'm like, are you okay? Did you stroke out while writing this? This is horrible. Who wrote this? No. And then the next day I'll wake up and read something and be like, Oh my God, did I write this? It's just like, who wrote that?

And isn't it even worse when it's about the language as opposed to the plot or the storytelling?

Oh yeah.

It's like, because I try to write so it's very readable, so you don't see the work and it's just like, hey, I didn't have to stop and look up any words and da da da, and I read 10 pages before I knew it. So then when I read it and it's the language and it's stilted here, or it's just like— I'm like, there's no flow. There's no melody here. I suck.

You're like, who did that? Who is this? Like, someone got on my computer and did this. This is awful.

What the hell?

And it's the same when I like it. Sometimes I'm like, somebody got in here and wrote an amazing paragraph.

Yes. Who did that? It's like, that sentence really sings.

Wow.

I wonder how many times they did it because I don't remember it at all.

Yeah. Like, oh dang, who was that?

Damn. So now we're going to go to the boogeyman portion of it.

Okay.

All right. So would you rather it be that Joshua Gallagher is real? And he wants to kill you, or that Joshua Gallagher is real and wants to be your bestie?

Well, in an act of self-preservation, I'd rather he wants to be my bestie.

I think that's very valid.

Yeah.

I would go for that.

Yeah.

You don't want to be his bestie, but—

Shit might get weird, but probably better than being killed. Yeah.

Because I have the genuine thoughts, of if these books attracted the wrong person and all that. I'm sure you do too.

Yeah, absolutely.

Especially when I'm taking the trash out, honestly.

I'm sure.

Yeah.

I'm just like, because that would be—

It's got to be in your head.

That would be the cinematic—

Oh, absolutely.

All those serial killers that want to be remembered and want to be news items and the whole thing, that would be the way to do it is to copy off the book and all the public proclamations of my dumbass saying, taking the trash out is terrifying for me, yet I still do it. So why not? Perfect. Laying in wait. But yeah.

Just so you know, he has a taser with him when he does it. So.

Oh, I'm ready to run. I'm alert. I'm, I'm—

He's heavily armed.

I am like 12 years old when I'm taking the trash out.

Yeah. So don't do it.

So yeah, I would rather he wants to be my buddy and I'm just like, oh God, I got a pest. Yeah. Who wants to eat my, you know, kidney?

But yeah.

You know, but like, I won't let him. Yeah. We'll figure it out.

Kara will protect me.

Yeah. He won't. You're besties.

Exactly. All right. This one's a little more intense.

You receive a letter from Joshua Gallagher that just says, I know. Or would you rather wake up and find a Polaroid of yourself sleeping just tucked on your nightstand?

The letter.

Yeah, I'd take the letter.

Yeah, the letter. And I don't even care what he does. And there's plenty of stuff he could be talking about probably in my brain, including some messed up stuff I've probably forgotten about. But I know I haven't killed anybody, so it's not that. But yeah, the Polaroid. Those again, that's the kind of storytelling stuff That is just— that rocks my world.

Yeah, same.

You know, the fact that someone was there when I didn't know it and left this memento, the fact that—

That's the scariest thing I've ever heard.

All of us. Yeah.

That was, that was drawn partially from one of my books, actually.

Yep.

Yeah. All of that stuff. Yeah. I was gonna say, you guys must have fun making up these questions.

Yeah.

It is fun.

Especially the would you rathers.

They're really good, but they're also messed up.

Exactly. Yeah. That's like us. They're fun.

I'm gonna be asking my friends this all week. Would you rather?

Would you rather do this? Really? Can I get a copy of this list? You get to know people when you ask these questions.

No, I won't forget the list. Trust me.

Yeah. And I think that's our last question.

That is it. Yeah. So yeah. Good.

Thank you so much. I know you're like, I'm scared.

You're like, geez. I mean, I was waiting for the what if, you know, the Swedes love candy. So what if, if you had to have this bag of candy or that?

I'd be like, oh, that's tough.

Swedish candy is the best.

I take it all.

Yeah. Yeah. Truly.

We're all about food and all that stuff.

Oh, hell yeah. Oh, we have Swiss bread waiting.

Wherever we go, wherever we travel, it's all about finding the good food spot. And, uh, you know, when my son was playing lacrosse, I was texting like the commentators who I knew from, you know, other things and being like, you travel everywhere, where's the best food I can get at Notre Dame? And where's, you know, where's the best pizza here? We found a great pizza spot in, uh, Westminster. Yeah, in Western Maryland the other day. And it was just— you would have thought we won the lottery. We're like eating in the car like teenagers because we wanted to get home to the dogs. And we're like, I was like, this isn't just good, this is really good.

Oh, when you find a good food spot.

I love a fella who can do that. She bought a slice of cheesecake from that restaurant. So that was in the middle part of the car. You got plastic fork.

That's big love.

And I open it and it's half eaten. I'm like, what the hell? She goes, I told you I ate it beforehand.

I had to make sure it wasn't poisoned.

That's pretty much what we bonded over food right away as teenagers, to be honest.

Well, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. Oh, thank you. Yeah, thank you. This has been so fun. You are welcome back anytime.

Oh, thank you. I was going to say, this felt like I just got to hang out with friends.

Oh, I love that. That's how we felt. Yeah.

I'll come back anytime you guys want some weirdo to come on here and talk about how he's scared of everything.

Hell yeah. We'll definitely have you. Hell yeah. And everybody check out Killing the Boogeyman. It's coming out October 6th.

Yes.

So preorder it, go get it.

It's awesome.

Get the other 2 books too. I'm telling you, they're awesome. I read them like so long ago, so I was already an OG, like ready for this.

Yeah. And you can actually write me and I'll send you signed bookplates and all the whole thing. I do that all the time.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, we'll figure it out. But, but, but yeah, thank you for having me.

No, thank you for coming.

Anytime.

This has been awesome.

And this, like I said, this just felt like we were hanging out.

It really did.

That's like bonus.

Hell yeah. Well, thank you guys so much for listening. We hope you keep listening.

And we hope you...

Keep...

It...

Weird.

I did it too quick.

No, yours was good.

I didn't know you meant literally.

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