Transcript of The Exorcism of Anneliese Michel (Part 1) New

Hey, weirdos. I'm Alayna.

I'm Ash.

And this is morbid.com. Elfin. I want to talk about something important. What?

Wendy's. Wendy's. Do you know how I always tell you guys that the faux faux faux is, is the way to go? Like I used to tell you guys that. It's been a while.

I was going to say it's been a while.

What did I get today? I'm, I'm looking it up.

It, it had pretzel bun.

I know that it's the pretzel bun sandwich and it has like beer cheese on. I'm sounding real big right now, but it had beer cheese on it and pickles and fried Onions, and it was the most beautiful thing I think I've ever eaten in my life.

That sounds good.

It was good. I didn't— I could only eat half of it, but I get spicy nugs. I think you guys should go to Wendy's right now and get that sandwich.

Get it. We're not sponsored by Wendy's.

We're not sponsored by Wendy's.

Never have been.

You know who is? Lisa Barlow. And you can also get the Baby Gorgeous meal. But I would like to talk about how I'm a little bit disappointed that the Baby Gorgeous meal is just a 10-piece chicken nugget. Yeah.

I mean, I don't, I don't know anything about Lisa Barlow or why it's called the Baby Gorgeous Meal or—

Okay. I'm gonna tell you so fast.

Anything of that sort.

Lisa Barlow is from Salt Lake City Housewives. She loves fast food. She, you would love her cuz she loves Taco Bell too.

Love that.

But she loves Wendy's. And one time her child who she was picking up from school got in her car and she said, hi, baby gorgeous. And now she has the Baby Gorgeous Meal at Wendy's. The end.

Honestly, baby gorgeous is a great way to talk to your child though.

Yeah. And if you sound like her, it's even better. Hi, baby gorgeous. Oh, and she recently released a song called Baby Gorgeous.

Oh wow, okay.

Where she says, you're just baby gorgeous.

Wow.

That it sounds just like her.

I've really missed out, I guess.

You did. But I would say don't get that meal because it's kind of a boring order.

Shit. Lisa Barlow's coming for you.

No, don't come for me, Lisa.

Don't, Lisa. I don't know who you are, but don't.

I was friends with Angie first, so.

Oh, there you go.

Period. But I would get the pretzel bun sandwich.

I love a pretzel bun, so I'm with you on that.

You got a good-looking Frosty over there. I swear this isn't sponsored.

I do have a good-looking Frosty. It really isn't.

But if they'd like to, yeah, I'd come up with a meal.

This is our plea.

Can you imagine a Morbid meal? Oh my God, Wendy's, you could have a big thing going for you. I mean, and like, it doesn't even just have to be our listeners.

Morbid is pretty It's pretty like all-encompassing. Yeah. Anything can be morbid.

And for the season of October, it's literally spooky season.

Yeah.

Wendy's.

I think we should get on it.

I'm making a plea personally. I've been talking about you guys for years.

It's true. Yeah.

If you, if you saw 4 for $4 sales go up in like 2019, baby, that was baby gorgeous. That was me.

And if you heard people roll up on that speaker and say, I'll have a faux for faux, then you know where it came from.

Because I never called it a 4 for $4. A faux faux faux.

A faux faux faux.

So, yeah.

So that's that. I don't know.

We didn't intend for that to go like that.

No.

What's up?

Yeah, I'm rewatching Widows Bay and it's just as good. It's even better.

Are you noticing things that you didn't the first time? I am starting to.

We just started, but I'm also just— it's the funniest fucking show.

No, it's so good.

That show is brilliant. I will shout it from the rooftops. I love that show.

Um, and she's like, you had your qualms?

You had your qualms? It's so fucking good. Like, that episode of Sunset Cocktails with Patricia will—

that's the best episode.

I'll never get over it.

Have we talked about before, um, was it Paul Tremblay's wife who told us that you can get— you can, um, get the—

oh, the playlist.

Yeah, it's on Spotify.

Oh yeah, I listened to it. It's great.

It is. Yeah, we listened to it recently.

It's an awesome playlist. It's on Spotify.

Remember we were listening to it and the girls were like, what the fuck is this? They were like, what going on? Like, what are you dancing to?

It's just like '90s R&B.

It's great.

It's awesome.

Patricia knew what she was doing.

She did. Patricia for life. Um, and you know, I don't know how to segue into what we're going to talk about.

Unfortunately, it's not going to be nearly as fun as Wendy's faux faux pretzel buns or Patricia. No.

And Roland, you can hit the, hit the counter.

Roland, I like it.

Hit the counter, Roland.

I will say somebody commented who, who does the time counts that I saw, and they were like, you guys are really funny, starts at this time. And I was like, At least thank you for the compliment.

Hey, I mean, I'm glad you're enjoying the beginning.

I think they like being called out. Yeah.

I mean, we're just giving you your flowers.

Yeah.

You're doing a service.

This one's for you.

So Roland, this one's for you.

Pour one out for Roland.

And today, because it's spooky season.

It's Proctober.

It's Proctober, everybody. Proctober.

Which stands for pre-October, in case you didn't know.

John Proctober.

Yes.

If you know.

Ah, nasty. Exactly.

And so today we're going to talk about an exorcism.

Ooh.

This is a pretty famous one.

Yeah?

It's a pretty gnarly one.

They usually are.

They always are, I feel. And this one is going to be 2 parts because there is just so much.

A 2-part exorcism?

It's a very intense case.

Fuck.

We're talking about the exorcism of Anneliese Michel.

Oh, I don't think I know this one.

This one—

Is wild. Okay.

It's a wild one.

And she got possessed. Tell me everything. It's—

this one's wild because, as I will state several times, every single religious person around her, like priests, anybody like that, were like, yeah, I don't think you're possessed.

No way.

And then they were like, no, we are. Like, the family was like, absolutely, this is what's going on.

But like, that doesn't always go that way.

No, it doesn't. Usually the priests come and they're like, demons. But this one was like, no, I think you should see a doctor.

Did Ed and Lorraine Warren find her?

Uh, no, because this is in Germany.

Ed and Lorraine didn't even find her.

They didn't get to—

Wow.

They didn't get into this one.

This is a different kind of exorcism.

This one's from the '70s too.

Okay.

So it's in Germany. So I think Ed and Lorraine didn't get their gnarly little claws into this one.

All right. That's shocking.

So let's talk about who Anneliese was, because this one's also really tragic. Because when you hear about Anneliese, you're like, wow, you had, like, a lot going for you.

Oh, yeah.

Like, you were, like, pretty good— like, a pretty good childhood, like, was really on a good path, and then it just kind of— something happened.

That's interesting too, because I feel like a lot of times, like, it's usually a more tragic case even beforehand.

Yeah, because you feel like it maybe, like, thrives on a little chaos or tragedy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like the demon or whatever it is.

So Anneliese Elisabeth Michel, which she liked to be called Anneliese, not Anneliese Elisabeth.

Okay.

She was born September 21st, 1952, in Bavaria, West Germany. She was the second of 5 children to Josef and Anna Michel. According to anthropologist Felicitas Goodman, the Michels were a stable, frugal, industrious, slow-moving German middle-class family, more peasant than urban.

He used the most amount of adjectives you could possibly use to describe a family.

He would have probably been accused of using AI there because, like, that was, like, just a lot of comparisons.

And not one of them was super kind. No, not at all. Just— wow.

slow-moving, you know, like—

Imagine if somebody described your entire family as slow-moving. Slow-moving. Like, okay, fuck you.

Uh, they were also deeply, devoutly Catholic. Uh, in fact, it was only because of poor grades in Latin class that Jozef, uh, did not become a priest himself.

Oh. Now, you gotta know the Latin to be a priest.

You gotta know the Latin to become a priest. You need to— don't read the Latin, but know the Latin.

Jesus Latin.

Now, despite the pretty, like, idyllic environment, in which Anneliese was raised, her childhood was dominated by her parents' rigid adherence to Catholicism, and much of their social lives were built around the church, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I'm just saying that was part of it.

Yeah.

Uh, in both school and home, educational and religious lessons focused heavily on biblical tales of battles between good and evil, in which the children were raised to know the names of various demonic entities.

Ah.

And there was an emphasis on the role that humans play in the ongoing struggle. So it was put in there pretty early.

Yeah, planted the seed.

Seed was planted. In the only recorded discussion between a young Anneliese and a local priest, Arnold Renz, the two can be heard talking about the terrible fate that awaits those who align themselves with the forces of evil.

Anneliese—

They believe that. Yeah, and you can hear Anneliese say, hell must be monstrously horrible. And then they just kind of moved on to a new subject. So she already had that, like, fear of hell. She had that fear of— Demons. She knew a lot about demons.

Like, when I was little, I was so scared of hell.

That's wild.

Yeah. Which is funny cuz I didn't grow up super religious.

Yeah.

But I like went to church sometimes, like with my, on my dad's side every now and again.

And it's usually like a pretty hot topic at church.

Oh, they love talking.

Yeah.

They love talking about hell.

Yeah.

We went to like a, a church that started with a P, like the, the religion was a P.

I don't remember which one it was. Presbyterian?

Probably Protestant. Probably Presbyterian.

Puritan. It's not in Sandpiper.

I didn't go to that one. I didn't see Ann Putnam there, but I was scared of hell.

There was also the very real and recent specter that hung over postwar Germany at the time of Anneliese's birth.

Oh, yeah.

Clearly.

Yep.

Her father was in the army and spent time in a prisoner of war camp. So whether it was his experience in the war or just the era in which he was raised, Josef took his role as a father and a provider in his eyes very seriously.

Yeah.

He ran his household like he ran his business, with an emphasis on tradition, obedience, not a ton of, like, you know, just, like, fuzzy, warm feelings. That's not to suggest that he didn't care for his children. In fact, according to Goodman, Anneliese and her sister, quote, sensed his passionate love for them.

Oh.

But he was very stern, and he had very high expectations. And again, he demanded obedience, especially from his children. Okay. Now, obedience is a wild word for children. Yeah, it's more for an animal.

Even animals, I'm always like, that's crazy. I'm like, my dog is my Oh my.

I know, I was gonna say, my dogs, not so much, but maybe someone else's. Now, the family was pretty close. There was 3 younger siblings, 3 younger sisters. Anneliese had ready access, and I think she had had 1 sibling who had passed away.

Oh, okay.

Anneliese had ready access to playmates whenever she wanted them. Like, it's not like she was, like, isolated in the house or anything, like reading a Bible.

That's good.

But she also struggled with, like, kind of poor health in her early years, and she was prone to getting infections. After the death of their first daughter to illness, Anneliese's parents became understandably hypervigilant when it came to her health.

Yeah, I'm sure.

I get that. Her mother would often tell people to explain her daughter's poor health, she would say, I was still weak when I carried her.

Oh.

Now, fortunately, by the time she reached her early teens, Anneliese seemed to be growing out of those health problems that she'd experienced. In 1965, she started participating in sports. She started making new friends, like—

Nice.

Was really growing and developing how they expected her to.

Hell yeah.

Um, her friend Maria said, she was just like the rest of us. She was a jolly girl participating in the schoolgirl pranks and jokes.

Fun.

And when she wasn't with friends, she was at home helping her parents keep up with the younger girls. Um, uh, her father told Felicitas Goodman, Anneliese had a way of just glowing with joy. Oh, so, like, so he clearly loved her. Yeah, like, he speaks of her like a loving parent would.

Yeah.

Now, by the time she reached high school, Anneliese's health problems seemed to be entirely gone. She really was really adept at academics. She was really good at sports, um, and her mother used to brag about her. She would say, she's so good, she will very likely become a schoolteacher one day. And that was what she wanted to do.

Okay.

Um, her commitment to her education was Clearly, like, showing that she was ambitious. And like her parents, she wanted more for herself than to just work the family business, keep the books for her father, or just, like, working shops in town.

Yeah.

She had dreams, baby. I love it. Now, as she entered further into her teen years, obviously, her life got a little more complicated when it came to boys.

Yeah.

As it does.

Oh, honey.

It's a natural part of growing up, and a near-constant part of the human experience, to suddenly realize that other humans are striking your fancy.

Yes. I love how you put that.

Now, but in a small village like Klingenberg—

Obsessed. Absolutely. I will not let that pass by. I'm obsessed. Klingenberg?

Klingenberg.

Klingenberg.

Yeah, Klingenberg.

Let's fucking go.

Uh, religion dominated a lot of that human existence.

Maybe let's not go.

Uh, and you know, sexuality, especially for girls and young women, was something of a minefield, especially at that time.

Yeah.

As the boys and Boys and girls in the village started mixing at school, church, other social events. Parents became increasingly paranoid about what was going to happen if they were left alone. Anneliese's mother would remind her of the old adage, and I know you're all going to say, oh, that old chestnut.

Is it the cow and the milk?

No.

No?

This one— this one's a lot. A girl's honor is like a white sheet. Every spot shows. I don't think I know that one.

You know that one, right?

Me neither.

Wow. I mean, it's not as— it's not as bad as the, uh, the cow and the— and the milk for free. I don't know. I mean, it's pretty bad.

I don't know.

Damn. Yeah.

Uh, so there's that. More often than not, her mother could successfully keep her from going to dances or other social functions by reminding her of her fragile health that she once had and warning her that she might get sick again if she pushed herself too hard.

Okay.

So they were a little, little over the top hypervigilant.

Yeah.

Now, when the school year started in 1968, Anneliese was excited about the future. And according to her friend Maria, she spoke endlessly about attending college in Würzburg and becoming a teacher.

Cool.

But a few weeks after her 16th birthday, everything started to change.

Oh, no.

Now, one afternoon in early October, Anneliese inexplicably passed out while sitting in class.

Oh.

Now, she didn't— it wasn't this dramatic thing. She kind of just like slumped forward on her desk and her friend Maria was like, she's like, I thought she just fell asleep.

Yeah.

So she poked her arm like, hey, you got to wake up. And Anneliese slowly raised her head and looked like she was in a daze, though.

Huh.

And she told Maria, maybe I studied too much. And she really didn't think much about it. Like, she kind of thought she fell asleep, I guess.

Okay.

Just went about the day as normal. But later that night, she had another experience she couldn't explain. A little after midnight, Anneliese was woken from her sleep and felt like she was being held down by a powerful, unseen force.

Hate that.

The weight of whatever was holding her down was so strong that she couldn't move a muscle. And in a moment of panic, Anneliese tried to call out for help. But when she opened her mouth, no sound came out.

Sounds like sleep paralysis.

Thank you. I said, I too feel that feeling.

I know that.

The pressure on her abdomen, though, This is where it changes a little bit. She said there was pressure. It felt like something was pressing down on her.

And you don't feel that way?

When I've experienced sleep paralysis, it might be different for other people. I'm not trying to say my experience is universal. I just feel like I can't move.

Okay.

I don't feel like something is like—

Physically holding you down. Holding me.

Like pressure on me. I just feel like I can't move or yell. She had a lot of pressure and the pressure on her abdomen was so intense that she could feel herself involuntarily Urinating.

Oh, fuck.

Which is intense.

Yeah, that's more than sleep paralysis, I would think.

Now, later, when Anneliese described the incident, she said she believed she was dying. Like, that's how scary it was. Then she heard the clock at the nearby church sound at the quarter hour, like the bells, and the pressure just disappeared. And the only evidence that anything had happened at all was her slightly sore tongue, because she said she was, like, biting and trying to, like, move her mouth.

And that she had, like, wet the bed?

Yeah.

Wow!

That morning, Anneliese told her mother that she must have been sick the night before, and she was allowed to stay home from school.

Okay.

And because of her history of, you know, poor health, there was no reason to risk anything. And by the end of the day, she was feeling like herself. So...

Okay.

They just were like, that was weird.

Yeah, like fluke illness, I guess.

Now the rest of the school year passed by without incident. But on August 24th, 1969, it happened again. just as it had the previous year. That afternoon, Anneliese experienced a sort of, like, strange blacking out. It wasn't like she'd briefly fallen asleep, but it was like a moment where, and this is a quote, she just sat and did not know what she was about to do.

Huh.

That night, she was awoken from her sleep with the same feeling of paralysis again. Same, like, kind of feelings. She couldn't move her arms and legs and felt as if she was being held down. She tried to scream, and nothing came out. The next morning, she told her mother about the experience, and she was immediately on the phone to the doctor to arrange for her to be seen. As a general practitioner, the doctor was like, yeah, I can't really explain what's going on here.

Yeah.

So he referred her to a neurologist.

Okay.

Which is valid.

Smart.

And that afternoon, she and her mother traveled to Aschaffenburg to the office of Dr. Siegfried Luffy. Along the way, Anneliese's mother was so anxious, like, couldn't control her anxiety. She was wringing her hands, she kept sighing, and she told her daughter, Dr. Vogt said it might be something with your brain. Let's not talk about this to anyone outside the family. You know how people talk.

Oh.

Which is also like—

I just think about the fact that she's already lost a child, and I can't imagine what was going through her brain.

Yeah, that's the thing. And then it's like the whole stigma of, like, something might be going on with your brain, and we don't want anyone to know about it. It's like, that's not her fault.

No, not at all. Like, if that is the—

you know? Dr. Luthy turned out to be a curt but very highly competent specialist who ran through all the usual tests with Anneliese. But based on his evaluation, he said he couldn't see anything wrong with her.

Huh.

In fact, he later told police investigators, which tells you where this goes...

Oy.

Neurologically and psychologically, all findings were negative.

Huh.

So, like, nothing wrong.

Yeah.

But Anneliese and her mother both seemed very distressed, so he asked them to return the following week for an EEG test. The test, though, proved no more insightful than any of the other exams. The results showed a perfectly normal 16-year-old girl.

Wow!

Now regardless of the negative test results, obviously Anneliese was describing 2 potentially concerning experiences. That could have an origin in the brain that the EEG and other previous tests just weren't picking up on.

Yeah.

Like, they realized that.

You know, possibly didn't even know about yet.

Yeah.

Like, there's a—

there's a very real possibility. Dr. Luthy said, I judged from the description I was given that this was probably a case of cerebral seizures of the nocturnal type.

Oh.

With the symptoms of a grand mal epilepsy.

Oh, fuck.

Now, what happened next seems to be a matter of some speculation, though. In a letter written by the doctor to investigators in 1976, he indicated that he prescribed Zentrapil, an anticonvulsant drug.

Okay.

Now, and he scheduled a follow-up appointment with her. That's what he wrote in a letter to investigators in 1976.

Okay.

But when he was questioned by police a short time later, Dr. Luthe insisted he had not yet prescribed her any medication. And instead, he said he just recommended her further observation since only 2 attacks occurred within an interval of a year.

Okay.

So that's, like, what happened there. Yeah.

And was there any evidence that she was on that medicine that anybody knows about?

Well, that's why it's relevant to talk about, because the timing of the medication has the relevance because it could coincide with her rapid decline in health.

If she was on that medicine?

If she didn't need it. Oh, I see. Now, upon returning to school for the new year, just a few weeks after her visit to Dr. Luffy, Anneliese was noticeably unwell. First, she complained of a chronic sore throat, Which ultimately resulted in her tonsils being removed.

Oh, and that surgery when you're older is supposed to be, like, horrific. Oh, it's supposed to be awful.

Not long after the surgery, she contracted pleurisy, which is inflammation of the lungs, and pneumonia, which soon became complicated by tuberculosis infection.

Holy shit.

Now, recovering from those illnesses required obviously long periods of bed rest. So Anneliese had to withdraw from school and from all social events that holiday season.

Aw.

By January, her condition had shown not really a lot of signs of improvement, so she was admitted to the hospital in Aschaffenburg in early February.

I mean, TB is no joke alone, and then I can't imagine pairing that with pneumonia. And then was she still continuing to have the experiences that she was having where she was waking up with the pressure?

I don't think she was having those at the same time, but—

Okay.

By the end of February, she was still not showing adequate signs of improvement, so she was transferred to a sanatorium in the mountain town of Middelburg, which specialized in respiratory illness for children.

Okay.

And that's what it was referred to as, as a sanatorium.

Yeah.

Although this place was full of patients her same age, she did find the experience very isolating and depressing. I'm sure.

Because you're also— you're being moved away from your whole family and your sisters and your friends.

Like, she had never been, like, an exceedingly social person, like, over the top, but she was accustomed to being around a large family. who laughed and sang together and had nice times.

And like you said, she did sports and that kind of thing.

Yeah, but the— and the other girls at the sanatorium weren't unkind to her in any way, but they seemed to have already formed a bond by the time she arrived. They had been there already, so they weren't really interested in giving her a big welcome into the group.

Oh, well, that's sad. Also because everybody's feeling shitty and like, yeah, that's true, each other up.

No one's feeling good. And the isolation was made worse by the regular letters that she was receiving from everyone at home. They had obviously intended to cheer her up.

Yeah.

But under the circumstances, it just kind of made her realize what she was missing out on.

Yeah.

Which is sad.

They're like, hey, we're doing all this shit. How's the sanatorium where—

Where nobody don't have friends? We just hang out with you? Like, that sucks.

That's fucked up.

Now, by spring, her condition had improved somewhat.

Okay.

But the doctors were concerned about some potential heart problems and insisted she remain at the sanatorium.

Okay.

Then in June 1970, she had another inexplicable attack.

Oh.

It all happened the way it had before. Stiffness in her arms and legs, a feeling of being crushed, involuntary urination, inability to scream.

Is this indicative of, like, another illness at all? It feels like a seizure.

Now that we know about? It does feel a little bit like a seizure.

But she's supposed to possibly have been on anti-seizure medication?

And that's where the—

But we're not sure because there's like that conflicting information. That's weird.

Yeah, it's very weird.

And also, you would think that there would be like a prescription history, especially the time that she was at the hospital.

Yeah. I mean, it was in the '60s and '70s, so I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know how that works.

And in Germany, I don't know how it all works.

Yeah, it could be different. But I'm like, wouldn't you think there'd be like a log?

You would think so. But I do not know. But eventually the paralysis weakened enough that Anneliese let loose a terrifying scream that woke up all the other girls in the dormitory and brought the night nurse running to her.

Oh, shit.

But by the time the nurse arrived, the entire episode was over.

Okay.

Now, a few days later, just past dinnertime, Anneliese was sitting outside saying the rosary. And she did that every night when she was home. And it was around dusk and the sun was setting over the mountains. And she said for the first time since she arrived there, she could see the beauty in her surroundings suddenly. Oh, well, that's nice. Like she had this moment of just peace.

And clarity.

And she said after so much stress and upset in the previous year, she felt a noticeable sense of calm wash over her.

All right.

It was like something had changed. From behind her, she could hear a bunch of the girls talking, and eventually she realized that they were talking about her. And one of the girls asked loudly, what were you doing? And Anneliese was like, I'm praying the rosary. But they were like, no, we know what that is. And they were like, what are you doing with your hands?

Okay.

Like, what were you doing? And Anneliese must have looked confused because one of the girls explained, we were watching you like you had a cramp or something. Like when my cat stretches her claws, like you had paws or something.

What?

And Anneliese didn't realize it, but she must have been clenching and unclenching her hands, which from a distance looked as though She was holding them in, like, a claw-like—

Okay.

And then another girl said, and your eyes, I thought they were blue. Now they're all black.

What the fuck?

Now, Anneliese just laughed them off, but she got up and went to a mirror and her eyes weren't black. Not exactly. But they did look a much darker shade of blue than what they normally were.

Okay.

And she said her complexion had also appeared to have improved slightly. Like, or not even slightly. Significantly, to be honest, because her face had been super pale and, like, very sickly looking.

Yeah.

But she said she looked at herself that afternoon and she was rosy and flushed, like her circulation was suddenly turned on.

That's very strange.

Yeah. Now, the feeling of calmness lingered for a few days. She felt very calm until she was informed that she was being taken by train to see a new specialist for more tests to find out whether her neurological condition had changed.

Okay.

This time, Anneliese saw a new doctor, Dr. Von Haller. who conducted another EEG. This time, the test showed a slight irregularity, but nothing so abnormal that it would have caused the symptoms previously described by Anneliese. But again, the symptoms she described did closely resemble a form of epilepsy.

Yeah.

So Dr. Von Haller prescribed anticonvulsant medication.

So now we know for sure. Yeah.

Now, in the days after the appointment with Dr. Von Haller, Anneliese spent her evenings looking out at the mountains and praying the rosary. and trying to call up that feeling of warmth that she had a week before.

Mm-hmm.

And it was during one of those late afternoons, as she was sitting by the windows praying, that it happened. Eyes closed, she ran through the prayer she said countless times before. Then, without warning, something came over her, she said, like a flash of lightning. She opened her eyes and looked out the window, and she saw a Fratzen, or a huge, cruelly grimacing face on the horizon. Which is the scariest shit I could conceive of.

Like, in the distance?

Yeah, like, on the horizon, a huge, cruelly grimacing face. Oh.

Yeah. Hate that.

The terrifying face disappeared as quickly as it had appeared, but it left her with so much unease.

Yeah.

She had always found solace in her religious beliefs and prayer, but now every time she attempted to pray, she thought of that horrible, evil face and found herself unable to finish a single prayer. Now, in addition to the stress of her illness and this, like, chaotic shared living arrangement she was in, she felt super bad anxiety and, like, a lot of fear, especially associated around prayer, which used to be her, like, solace.

That's really sad.

And she really wanted to pray to try to, like, restore that sense of order into her life because that's like her routine. She's out of it now. Like, that's hard. But she worried that what was going to happen if she tried to do it. Okay. And a few days later, she put her rosary in her bedside drawer and didn't retrieve it again until she left. The sanatorium.

That's really sad.

It is really sad. Now, she remained there for 6 more weeks, and every day was filled with loneliness and dread. It was not good. Although she had stopped praying, that didn't stop the face from reappearing every once in a while. Some— and it was always without warning or her doing anything that would bring it about. Each time the menacing thing showed itself in different places, she would feel sick and like a pit in her stomach.

I don't know anything about anti-seizure medication or anti-convulsant. What is it? Anti-convulsant medication. But makes you wonder, because the fact that that doctor, now we know he prescribed it, makes you wonder if she was even on anything previously. And now if she suddenly is, could that be a potential side effect?

That's what I'm wondering. I'm looking at them now because I need to see.

Yeah.

It's a very rare side effect, but it can happen.

Okay, so like hallucinations?

Yeah. So it, it very well could have been just she was one of the rare people who got this.

Because I mean, she already has a rare case to begin with, it sounds like.

Yeah, that's the thing. So, and she said every time she saw the faces, it looked like it— or the face, it would look like it felt like it wanted something from her.

Oh, that would scare the shit out of me.

Yeah. One, one afternoon, not long before leaving the sanatorium, the face appeared again, and this time it was accompanied by a terrifying thought. She said she wondered to herself, what if that monstrous shape were really in me? Oh.

Yeah.

Now, after being discharged on August 29th, 1970, she returned home, but the family immediately noticed that something was different.

Yeah.

She was moody. She was irritable, more withdrawn than she had ever been. When she went to the doctor for a follow-up a few weeks later, She told Dr. Von Holler that she had been experiencing some dizziness, but she did not say anything about the face that she was seeing.

Well, she was probably worried about sounding, like, silly.

Yeah, that's the thing. Um, and she really didn't say anything about the depression having gotten worse since the last visit, so she wasn't giving the full picture. Returning to school that fall proved to be also something of a disappointment. Anneliese told a friend, I thought I was going to be happy going back to school, Now I'm worried.

Oh.

She'd always seen school as kind of like a happy place. Yeah, like her happiest friends. She had fun in school. But now that she was at least a year behind her peers, she felt like there was no way she could catch up. And then since she'd been at the sanatorium, there were several new additions to her social circle, and she kind of felt out of place. Like she was behind everyone.

And she's already spent so much time feeling that way.

Yeah.

At the sanatorium, like—

And now she's home feeling that way.

It's all— that's also just a fucking tough age to be a girl.

Yeah.

In general.

It's a mindfuck too.

Oh yeah.

That'll really get you.

Social situations like that.

Yeah. Her friend Karen Gora said she was quiet and serious, a loner if not an outsider, introverted and dreamy.

Aww.

Her friend Maria said after her illness, Anneliese was changed. She was quiet and withdrew from her friends. I also noted that she kept wanting to carry on mostly religious conversations. Eventually, the new girls in her friend group began labeling her as, quote, a religious nut.

Okay. Now, that's not really a nice thing to call someone.

That's not great. Now, by the end of the first semester, Anneliese's sullen and withdrawn emotional state had become obvious to pretty much everyone around her. Once a really great student with a promising future, that first year back at school, she was just getting, like, average grades. She wasn't, like, tanking.

Yeah.

She wasn't doing what she was, you know, what her promise was. Acting on orders from the doctors at the sanatorium, Anneliese's mother took her to a follow-up appointment with a lung specialist, where she again failed to mention her declining mental health and hallucinations, telling the doctor she was fine. That said, during the exam, the doctor had some concerns about Anneliese's circulation and wrote up a referral for yet another specialist.

Oh, man.

A Dr. Packhauser in nearby Miltenburg. The mere mention of another new doctor was more than she could handle at the time.

Yeah.

She said to her mother, all I ever do is sit around in doctors' offices. I wish I could be rid of the lot of them and just live like other girls.

Yeah, it's depressing.

It, like, breaks my heart. Now, during the 1970s, the medical field's understanding of seizures was definitely undergoing a significant reevaluation.

Okay.

Once, it was believed to be the product of mental illness or some other external thing. By the time Anneliese began seeing specialists for her condition, the general consensus was that seizures were a neurological condition and were treated by a neurologist.

Right.

So this wasn't the time where they were like, you got demons in ya.

Yeah.

Yeah. But when it came to Anneliese, it seemed like every doctor she saw, regardless of their specialty, was more interested in her seizures than they were the problem she had gone to them to have treated. Like, they just kept referring back to a seizure.

Yeah.

Dr. Packhauser, for example, dismissed the concerns about her circulation. And she was sent to him for that.

Yeah.

And instead wrote a letter to the family physician, Dr. Vogt, in which he overrepresented the number of seizures that she had that year.

Why would you do that?

There was only 2 that she had technically had.

Uh-huh.

And he over-labeled their severity. He labeled them apoplectic, which is, like, very violent.

Yeah.

Now, as is sometimes the case in situations like this, the tragic outcome is usually the result of multiple failures.

Oh yeah. We've seen that happen how many times?

Both institutional, social, familiar, familial, and just like poor communication.

Yep.

Whether it's intentional or not. Like, that's the thing. It's— I'm not saying everybody had this like malintent here.

No.

It's just things are starting to spiral a little bit.

It's like a bad game of telephone.

Exactly. Now, Anneliese had several health problems, which may have exacerbated one another, but they weren't necessarily related. So, it's like, you gotta treat these things how they come. And in some cases, the problems didn't mention, like, the depression— that she didn't mention, excuse me, like the depression and the, you know, the hallucinations. They were, at times, far more concerning than the physical ailments, but she wasn't saying anything.

I would think the hallucinations would be the biggest deal. Yeah.

And I mean, I think maybe she wasn't saying it because mental health at that time also wasn't taken as seriously as it is today.

Mm-hmm.

But it's also possible that if she did mention it, that they might have been more interested in the neurological side.

Right.

You know?

But then you have to think too, she is being treated at a time where you just said the belief of seizures is just starting to switch over.

That's the thing.

So she already knows about the stigma beforehand.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

And that's the thing. It's like, so—

She doesn't— There's a lot of things that— She doesn't want to be seen as, like, losing her mind. Exactly.

Yeah. Now, when Dr. Vogt received the letter from Packhauser urging him to refer her to another neurologist, the doctor dismissed the recommendation, assuming it wasn't necessary. And instead, he prescribed another anticonvulsant medication.

Oh, man.

The drug may have helped to prevent any new seizures, but it didn't do a lot to help her growing despondency, which was growing worse by the day.

And if it's a stronger medication, which I'm assuming here, but I would think it is because then that previous doctor had, like, overdone the amount that she was having in the prescription, it's like, is that then just making— exacerbating everything? Yeah.

That's the thing.

She—

Anneliese told a young doctor at the Institute for Psychopathy during an evaluation in the fall of 1973. In the last years of school, 1972 and 1973, I just didn't care beans about anything anymore.

Sometimes I don't care beans about things.

Honestly, I was like, no truer words sometimes. I've never heard that and I love it. Now, despite having graduated and been accepted to college, Annalise found that she was apathetic about everything.

Which like, to take a step back and to realize everything she was going through, the fact that she—

And she got accepted to college.

Graduated and got accepted is huge.

Yeah.

Like, good for her.

Well, and what she's experiencing and what she's describing, like, just like the whole, like, I just feel apathetic.

Yeah.

And I just didn't care.

Mm-hmm.

It's so, like, relatable to a lot of people.

Absolutely.

Like, especially— and we know a lot more now about what those feelings mean.

Depression.

And like, like she said later, I was able to perceive but not to experience.

Oh.

That's depression.

Absolutely.

Like, that's deep depression. And now we know so much more about it. To be able to handle it. And you just want to put her in a time machine and bring her here and be like, we'll take care of you, babe. And obviously she was depressed. Not that we're really killing it in mental health now. I'm just saying we know a lot more.

No, we're— yeah, we're doing better than we were back then, I think.

Now, by the fall of 1973, her anxiety had become almost crippling, yet she continued to insist to everyone around her that she was fine. She was trying to blend in, like, go through. Despite her insistence, though, her mother knew something was wrong.

She's always known.

Um, she said, how about all those times when all of a sudden you become stiff or when you no longer know where you are? And her mother's comment about stiffness and disorientation indicated that regardless of what she said to her doctors or her family, she was still experiencing seizures, and they were happening clearly with increased frequency for her mother to bring it up like that.

Yeah.

But that was just the beginning of her ordeal, and the worst was definitely yet to come. Now, through the later part of 1972 and into '73, Anneliese saw several more specialists, but little came out of the evaluations. In September 1972, she saw Dr.— Dr. Luffy, the neurologist again, who performed an EEG, because remember, he had wanted to do that again, but found nothing and ultimately increased her anticonvulsant medication.

Which, why would you do that if you haven't found anything?

There was also an ear, nose, and throat specialist, a pulmonologist, psychotherapists and psychiatrists, and several more visits to Dr. Vogt.

Okay.

Yet in all those appointments, Anneliese gave little more information than necessary and often omitted important details.

She probably just wanted to get the fuck out of there.

For instance, according to Goodman, uh, who's in the show notes, Anneliese saw Dr. Luthy several times during that period of her life, and she never once mentioned the fact that the medication he had prescribed seemed to be making her symptoms Okay. She also didn't tell any of them that she started smelling a horrid stench not perceived by others.

Oh.

And we'll get to that.

That's interesting.

Now, in the spring of '73, things continued changing for the worse in the Michel house. One afternoon, Anneliese told her mother that she had been hearing strange knocking noises in her room at night that she couldn't explain. Her mother was like, Okay, I, you know, you must have been dreaming. That's your first thought, you know?

Yeah.

When Anneliese persisted, her mother sent her to see Dr. Vogt, saying, if you did not dream it, maybe there's something wrong with your ears.

Okay.

When Dr. Vogt couldn't find anything wrong with her ears, he referred her to a specialist.

Oh, man.

But he, too, couldn't find any problems with her ears.

I'm like, she already saw an ENT. Yeah.

In the days that followed, her parents began speaking to one another in private about their concerns. The doctors thought Anneliese had epilepsy. And her mother said, so maybe it had something to do with that.

Okay.

That seemed reasonable to Josef, but he added, she's a bit off her rocker, that's all. Oh, that's a quote.

That's sad.

Yeah. The thing was, it wasn't just Anneliese who heard the knocking in the bedroom at night.

Oh.

It started with Anneliese, but a few nights later, the other girls started hearing the noises too. Her mother worried that if there wasn't a rational explanation for the noises, it could be something supernatural.

Okay.

But Josef wasn't willing to entertain that thought.

Yeah.

He told his wife, Anneliese's sick. And as to her sister, well, young girls are sometimes hysterical. Everybody knows that. Josef!

Josef!

Josef!

Josef!

Yeah.

No wonder Anneliese didn't want to talk about her symptoms too extensively.

It's giving no.

Yeah.

It wasn't just the noises that had Anneliese concerned enough to tell her parents. Eventually, she started telling them about the faces finally, because they were still happening.

She still saw them.

Before, when she'd seen the Fratzen once or twice a year, it was easy to dismiss that as a symptom of maybe the medication she was taking or something else. And she—

but—

and that was like, she really only saw them when she thought she was gonna maybe have one of those seizure-like experiences, she was thinking.

Huh.

But now she wasn't just seeing them during that stuff.

Okay.

Like, at the sanatorium, she would see them frequently, but, like, home, It felt like it was always related to some kind of thing. But now she said she saw them when she did normal tasks like making her bed, playing the piano, reading a book.

Okay.

Uh, and now she said the voices spoke to her.

Ah, that just gave me chills down my neck.

Yeah, or the faces spoke to her in low, menacing voices.

No, it also just got darker in here. Did you notice that?

It did get darker in here.

Do you have the lights off or the sun? I think like it's just a cloud, but that was really creepy. crazy timing.

Like, I think it's just a cloud, but it's scary.

I don't like clouds.

And they would tell her she was damned and will go to hell forever.

Oh, this is so spooky.

But they would say it like, you are damned and will go to hell forever, except they didn't smile at her like you just smiled.

Maybe they did. You weren't smiling.

That would be menacing.

You weren't smiling as, oh, that's a scary smile, don't do that. All right, stop it.

Now, the family may have lived in a very rural environment, but it was still the 1970s. And devout religiosity notwithstanding, there were— they were pretty modern people. Like, it's not like they were like, you know...

Devout religiosity.

Uh, their daughter had spent most of her life battling one illness after another, which would definitely take an emotional and psychological toll. on someone that young. As far as Josef was concerned, the hallucinations and increased talk of devils and demons was nothing more than another manifestation of her illness.

Okay.

And once she got over that, it would all be over. Which I can understand why he thought that way.

Yeah. And also, like, sometimes it's like when people are, like, really struggling and it's inexplicable, the, like, logical person just wants to logic their way through it, and that's almost like a coping mechanism.

Exactly.

I mean?

So I think it was just like, we're gonna be fine. Yeah, we're gonna get through this and then it'll all be over. Yeah, yeah, uh, yeah, yeah. You know, Anneliese's mother accepted her husband's explanation, but privately she couldn't help but believe there was something more sinister happening in the house. Now, the changes to Anneliese's personality weren't just noticed by family. In 1973, her old friend group from school began noticing that she was becoming very more sullen. and more depressed. The more she pulled away from her old friends, the closer she became with a new social group who some described as religious zealots. Oh.

Similarly— Wait, is a zealot a bad thing?

Zealot is you're, like, over the top.

Oh, okay.

Zealotry is not something you want to be—

Aligned with?

Yeah.

Awesome.

Similarly, in discussions with her psychiatrist, she routinely made concerning statements like, someone else is manipulating me, and my will is not my own.

Aye.

It wasn't just the voices that, you know, it wasn't just that the voices Anneliese heard were telling her she was damned. It was also that she was beginning to believe it now.

I mean, wouldn't you?

Yeah, I guess. Now, in 1973, her relationship with religion suddenly had a dramatic transformation. So again, she was devoutly—

Again?

Again, yes. Because, like, she She was devoutly religious growing up, and then she became super devout, and now it's going to change again. Now, what's beyond zealot? Again, once, once as devoutly Catholic as any other member in her family, and then zealotry coming into the situation. She now couldn't seem to tolerate being in proximity to religious icons for more than a few minutes.

What?

In one incident, Anneliese's mother claimed, quote, I happened to walk through the living room and saw Anneliese looking at the Mother of God statue, only it wasn't with respect or adoration. Her face was like a terrible mask full of hatred. Her eyes turned black, jet black, and her slender hands, they twitched and seemed to turn into thick paws like claws.

It's weird that the girls at the sanatorium described it as claws. And that the mom did too.

Yeah.

And that those are 2 completely different accounts.

2 completely different accounts.

Like years apart. That is really creepy.

That is creepy.

Because I don't know how to— I don't know how to rationalize that.

I don't know how to rationalize all that, yeah. Years later, the family would recognize this as one of the spells that often came over Anneliese, like the one she experienced at the sanatorium. However, the spells no longer left her with that, like, feeling of euphoria or calm.

Doesn't seem like it.

It was a feeling of dread.

Yeah.

In a 1976 recorded conversation with Father Renz, Anneliese described the experiences in some detail. This is what she said. Oh, Herr Pater, you cannot imagine that most awful dread. It is a terror that goes through all my limbs and settles there. It is a dread that makes you think you are right there in the middle of hell. You are totally, utterly distorted. You can call all you want for help, to the Mother of God maybe, but they are all deaf.

Oh!

Isn't that debilitatingly horrifying?

Yeah. It sounds like the Sunken Place.

It does. It sounds like the worst kind of situation I can imagine.

Yeah.

By that summer, her mental health had continued to decline while her religious paranoia grew. Not only had she become convinced of her own damnation, but she had also come to believe the world was going to end.

Oh honey, I've been there.

And unlike years earlier when she carried the burden of her thoughts silently, she was now more than happy to discuss them with others. And by then, the hallucinations had become way more vivid and way more detailed. She believed she had personal visions of the future, and she communed with the Virgin Mary.

To clarify, I have not been there.

Yeah, you haven't.

I have been scared of the end of the world, and I did go to therapy about it.

Yeah.

The Virgin Mary never— Never had that. Never made an appearance, no.

She also began likening herself to Barbara Weygand, a 19th-century Catholic prophetess who also claimed to have visions of the Virgin Mary.

Okay.

By the fall of '73, Anneliese's parents finally convinced her to return to see the neurologist, Dr. Löffler, and to tell him—

Everything. Everything.

She told the doctor, I often see Frotzen. The devil is in me. I am all empty inside. Years later, during the trial, Dr. Luthy testified about this appointment with Anneliese, and he said, she could not get her mind off these things. She had no power of decision, and everything was empty in her. But while thoughts of damnation and the end of the world seemed to be consuming her every waking moment, She seemed unable to provide a lot of detail about the hallucinations or what she believed to be visions.

Okay.

She was unable to describe the Fratzen with a lot of detail other than to say they were ghastly. And when asked how she knew it was the devil, Anneliese, quote, remained silent. Which is almost scarier.

Coming across a person suffering like this, like, to be the doctor on the other end, or like the mother or the father or the sister, This would fuck you up.

Yeah.

This fucks me up just hearing it right now. I can't imagine being in the presence of somebody experiencing this.

It would be horrifying.

That's a night— it's not even a nightmare, it's worse.

And for them to be like, how do you know it's the devil? And she just stares at you.

I would, I would pee my fucking pants.

That would ruin me. Now, throughout the investigation that occurred in the late 1970s, many details about her medical treatment would be fiercely debated.

Okay.

Among them was Dr. Luthy's reaction to Anneliese's description of her symptoms. Her parents would later insist it was Luthy who said they should take Anneliese to see a priest, but Luthy had strenuously and repeatedly denied those allegations.

I don't see a doctor.

Yeah. Dr. Luthy said, when I have a patient whom I cannot handle, I always refer that patient to a clinic and not to a priest. Yeah.

Yeah.

Also, Dr. Luthy didn't recall any talk of demonic possession at this time, though he did recall Anneliese feeling as though, quote, she was being molested by satanic beings.

Oh.

Regardless of who said what, the outcome remained the same. Dr. Luthy felt Anneliese's symptoms were a matter for psychiatrists and referred her to a clinic.

Yeah.

Yeah. In the fall of '73, the same time, Anneliese finally realized a dream she'd had since childhood when she enrolled in college. And started studying to become a teacher while dealing with all of this.

What? Yeah.

While everyone thought the start of her college career, maybe this was going to lift her spirits, this is what she's dreamed of.

Yeah.

They were surprised to find she was remarkably indifferent in all of her courses. The pills Dr. Luthy gave her did little, if anything, to control her psychiatric symptoms. And the thought of having a hallucination during a class or a lecture increased her anxiety by tenfold. Oh, I can't imagine. It was during this time that Anneliese's mother saw an opening to bring up the priest again.

Okay.

She said, if Dr. Luthy's medicine is all that useless, maybe we could talk to her priest about those. Now, for reasons that are, like, still kind of unclear, it seems that Anneliese and her mother would become very fixated on locating a Jesuit priest.

Okay.

Under the belief that the doctor had directed them specifically to a Jesuit.

Okay.

There's no church doctrine or other directive that specifically identifies the Jesuit order as being more knowledgeable on the matters of, like, demons and demonic possession.

Yeah.

But Jesuit priests play a prominent role in The Exorcist.

So they had maybe seen the movie?

Which was released just 2 years earlier. The novel was wildly successful. and led to the equally successful film, obviously, in 1973.

Yeah.

Both the novel and the film would have a significant influence on how people all over the world understood the rite of exorcism, a concept that up until this point had been pretty phased out of church practice.

Yeah.

Although it's merely speculation, they— the family's insistence on finding a Jesuit priest could be explained by the influence of Peter, you know, uh, William Peter Blatty's novel.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, and it is interesting timing, is all.

I'm just looking into it, and I guess because you said they're Catholic, right?

Yeah.

So a Jesuit priest is a type of Catholic priest, and it says they answer to their religious superior and take a special vow of obedience directly to the Pope for worldwide missions.

Interesting.

Just to give like a little more clarity. But yeah, I don't know if they just seem like, like top boss.

Yeah, like it seems like it's like in their own religion, so I guess that—

but it's like they're a little bit more than like, like your, your typical Catholic priest, I guess.

They're, they're, they're more than your average Catholic.

They're like priests worldwide. The priests worldwide, like Mr. Worldwide. That's their mission.

That makes sense.

Probably just offended a lot of people. That makes sense.

We're just, we're just trying to get through it. I don't know, this is a lot. There's a lot going on.

I'm just trying to understand.

There's a lot going on that we have no idea what's going on.

I'm simply trying to understand.

Now, whatever the reasoning may be, uh, they did manage to track down a Jesuit priest through one of the retired priests in their church.

Hell yeah.

Uh, that priest was Father Ernest Alt, who had— and he had already been given some background on the family, so when they finally sat down, he knew what to expect.

Okay.

Um, although he had been told of the various disturbing experiences, Father Alt's main impression was that Anneliese was a relatively normal, if shy and withdrawn, young woman.

Okay.

Uh, he later said, there was nothing that I could see that would indicate possession. At the conclusion of the conversation, I advised the family to take their daughter to a physician and have her examined. Wow, good for him. Yeah. Father Alt's recommendation was not what Anneliese or her mother wanted to hear.

Because they already went to a bunch of doctors.

By that point, Anneliese again had been seen by an endless stream of doctors from General practitioners and psychiatrists to neurologists, even ear, nose, and throat, you know, specialists. All of the above. None of them had been able to help. Anneliese's mother was open to the possibility that a new specialist might know something the others didn't, but Anneliese remained convinced that only a Jesuit priest would do.

Okay.

Now, Anneliese might have felt like she was running out of options, but fortunately for her, one of the parishioners at their church had another idea. Thea Hein had helped Anneliese and her mother find Father Alt. And as one of the biggest gossips in the village, she was invested in Anneliese's story and determined to help.

Absolutely iconic.

After doing some research on her own, Thea located Fadder— Father— uh, Fadder.

Fadder.

Father, um, Adolf Rodewick.

Okay.

That's an unfortunate name.

Yeah.

Um, he was a priest in Frankfurt.

Okay.

Father Rodewyk was not only a Jesuit, but he was also something of an expert on Satan and demonic possession.

I would think that a priest would be an expert on Satan.

Well, he had written several books on the topic.

Ah!

So, Thea reached out to the priest on Anneliese's behalf and explained what was happening and how they were certain that exorcism was the only possible solution.

Of course.

And the priest wrote back, on the basis of that letter, I then answered that I did see some indication in what she had written that the girl was possessed. However, considering the great distance between Frankfurt and Klingenberg and my advanced age, I could not concern myself with the matter.

Sir, that's too far. Won't go.

Too far, much old, can't go.

Sorry, possessed. Sorry, possessed.

Too far, much old, can't go.

Sorry, possessed. What the fuck? That's the shorthand version of that letter.

Too long to read, too far, much old, sorry, possessed.

Like, brother, father, fuck. I'm like, aren't you supposed to like help my neighbor? I guess they're not your neighbor. They're near— they're not your nearest neighbor.

Yeah, I guess, uh, Damn.

Did he have any advice? He did. And you know what he did? Did he offer literally any?

So, he did do a— TL;DR, too far, much old. Sorry, possessed. But he did refer her to Father Hermann, a retired priest in Aschaffenburg.

Which they'd already been to for adoption, I recall.

Aschaffenburg, yeah. While Anneliese's peers and family believed she was suffering from some sort of demonic infestation, Doctors and other specialists who she sought out during this period clearly did not agree with this whole treatment plan that was going on. Like Dr. Luffey, most listened to Anneliese's description of the events she was experiencing and thought she was having a mental health crisis.

Yeah.

She described feeling alienated from her own free will, and as though she was not making her own decisions. At one point she said, I'm not my own ego anymore, which is like— it's really—

That's deep. Yeah.

Her descriptions of the hideous faces she saw were similarly vague, like I said. And the messages were all just like, you're damned to hell.

Yep.

But she interpreted them as having some kind of, like, malevolent source. But again, she was never quite able to articulate why that was. And based her descriptions— based on her descriptions, there was nothing outwardly evil about them. It was just like a face that was like— That felt malicious. That felt malicious, yeah. Even the priests and religious figures during this time that they kept seeking out, obviously, like, he was completely, like, apathetic to the whole thing.

Yeah.

They seemed entirely unconvinced that she was possessed. Father Herrmann, who they referred to, said, we usually talked about her problems— her problem for half an hour to an hour. And he saw Anneliese about 10 times between the fall of '73 and the summer of '75.

Oh, wow.

And although he had no reason to disbelieve what she told him, or the reports of Anneliese's poor reactions to religious iconography during that time, he said he never saw any of the behaviors that Anneliese and her parents described. He never saw them.

Okay.

He said, these symptoms never occurred when we were together, although quite frankly, I said the rosary with her. During such instances, she always behaved calmly and with piety and showed no such negative behavior.

Which is interesting because this all started with her saying saying the rosary and having that terrifying experience.

And that's religious iconography of the highest order. So it's like you're literally praying with religious iconography and not having a negative reaction to it.

Yeah.

So, like, what's that? After all that time with Anneliese, he concluded her problems were a matter for doctors, not priests. He said, I suggested that she go to a neurologist.

Well, at least the doctors want to help. But the priests, like— I'm not saying they don't want to help, but I don't think they know how to.

I think they're acknowledging that this is not their expertise. Yeah. Which is—

Which is neurological.

Which is wild because usually priests are like, let's go! I think we need an exorcist.

I think it's a lot of American stories. Maybe other countries are much more— Yeah.

Maybe German priests are just like, I can't do this. This is doctor time.

It's cray cray. This is doctor time.

This is doctor time.

Hasn't he seen Scrubs?

No. A significant problem in Anneliese's case is one of reporting. That is, Anneliese and her mother frequently reported experiencing or witnessing supposedly supernatural symptoms.

Yeah.

But those symptoms were typically not evident when she was in the presence of doctors or specialists. There were, of course, the hideous faces she saw, the voices she heard, but no one else ever heard or saw those. So it's like, it's hard.

Except the knocking.

That's true. There was also, like you just said, there was the knocking, which again, her sisters claimed to have heard. But that could also just not be verified.

Well, it could also— I hate to say it, but it could be confirmation bias.

Exactly. And it's like—

They probably feel very badly for her. Their sister—

A feedback loop can happen in a room. So it's like, it can definitely happen.

And she's the oldest, right? Yeah.

Yeah. So it's like, in fact, were it not for one particular symptom, it's likely the case would have been nothing more than that of, unfortunately, this poor young woman rapidly kind of decompensating.

Yeah.

At the time.

Yeah.

But years earlier, and this is where the smell will come back.

Okay. I was wondering when that was gonna come back.

Anneliese had occasionally experienced a type of hallucination known as phantosmia. Okay. And that's smelling things that aren't there? An olfactory hallucination in which one smells something that isn't there. Like her other hallucinations, she was never able to describe the smell with any detail other than to say it was It was foul and rotten.

It's like when I smelled hot dogs at Paranormal Activity.

Exactly.

But I swear somebody fucking brought hot dogs into that theater.

She was absolutely convinced. And I believed her.

Yeah, I, I was believed by a few.

Yeah, I was gonna call a Jesuit priest, but I decided to just let it go.

Thanks. Yeah.

Now, in time, though, others started to smell the odor when they were in Anneliese's presence. Once on a church trip, Thea Heinz said Anneliese, quote, exuded a stench like Frau Hein had never smelled before, like fecal matter or something burning. Everyone in the bus could smell it.

I would like to state that those are 2 very different things.

Yeah.

Fecal matter smells a lot different than something burning.

Unless it's something gross burning.

Well, yeah, that's true. Like, that's— I guess that's a bit meaty.

You know, meat burning or something like that. Similarly, when Father Hermann interviewed Anneliese's parents, He— her mother described, quote, a stench of dung or of something burning in the room where Anneliese was. But Hermann himself never smelled anything unusual.

And we need to remember that Thea wanted very desperately to help them.

Yeah. With one priest after another having come away from interviews with Anneliese unconvinced of any supernatural basis for the problems, the case should have ended there, probably. Yeah. And were it not for one young priest, it probably would have.

You're gonna end there, aren't you?

And we're gonna end there for part 1.

Splat on your fucking face.

But I need you to know that part 2 is absolutely bonkers.

Part 1 was absolutely bonkers.

And it's a sad case. It's just tragic.

Well, you're talking about police investigations and trials, so...

Yeah.

I'm really confused about where this all goes.

It's very, very sad. It's just a lot. Any exorcism case, gets gnarly very quick.

Yeah.

It starts out being like, oh my God, that's so crazy. And, you know, seeing faces and all that. And then it's slow. It very quickly degrades into like, what the fuck am I listening to? Yeah. So just please be prepared for that in episode 2 because it's not going to be— it's not going to be the too far, much old, sorry, possessed. We're not going to be able to have as much. Yeah. So hold on to that one.

Okay. Well, that was interesting.

Yeah.

I'm very excited for part 2.

It's gonna be crazy.

And I think now we should maybe get to the fun fact.

Let's go.

This segment is brought to you by State Farm. I have the most fun fact for you that I think we'll ever fun fact on this show. I'm really excited. Okay, so this is— I'm gonna start off. This is from the Guinness World Records, uh, website.

Okay.

The average lifespan of a goldfish is about 10 to 15 years. Some varieties live, you know, like into their 30s when they're properly cared for. Hell yeah! But one male goldfish named Tish—

Tish!

Lived to be 43 years old!

Tish!

Lived to be 43 years old!

Tish, what the heck?

Isn't that crazy?

Tish!

The oldest goldfish ever.

Dang, 43 years with a pet?

43 years! He, he was born in 19— which I wonder, I wonder how they know like exactly when he was born.

I know.

But he was said to be born in 1956 and he lived until 1999.

That's bonkers.

He was totally Rufus, bro.

He was totally Rufus!

He, um, he lived in the UK, North York— I believe, and a 7-year-old won him at a fair with his family. Oh my God! And then Peter— Peter, the little kid, like, won him at the fair.

Peter!

And then he grew up with him his whole life. Peter—

Yeah, Tish and Peter.

You know, not his whole life, but a lot— all of his childhood.

Yeah.

All of Peter's childhood, Tish was there. And then when he— when Peter got married and, you know, moved out, his mom Hilda just took over care for Tish.

Oh my God, so he didn't take Tish with him?

No, because, well, Tish was like, he had lived in the same house forever.

That's true, it probably would have been stressful.

Tish was specific, too.

Oh, good for Tish!

Apparently, he only liked it— like, he really liked quiet areas.

Me, too!

Noisy areas stressed him out.

Same, Tish.

So he lived in a hallway.

Good for him!

Yeah!

And honestly, in your 40s, you should be able to get that. You want quiet, you get it.

Yeah, I think so, too.

Tell people what you want, Tish!

Hilda told the, uh, Daily Express, he has a healthy diet and has always enjoyed a peaceful place I love that they just like, respected Tish's wishes as well. Yeah!

Like, they were like, what you need, Tish?

That's probably why he lived so long.

Probably.

Also, one time, like, 10 years before he actually did pass away, he almost died. He leapt out of his bowl, and nobody was home.

Oh, no.

But then Hilda, the mom of Peter, came home like, a short time after that, and she found him, and she plopped him back in the water. And he just started swimming like everything was fine.

Dang. I wonder if he was like—

Can't do it anymore.

If he was like, I've been around a long time.

You know what, though? Would he know? Because goldfish have really short memories.

Oh, yeah. Aren't they supposed to have really— it's like 10 seconds or something.

I think it literally is like 10 seconds.

Is that real or is that— How short is a goldfish memory? Let's fact check during the facts segment.

I think it is pretty short. Oh.

Yeah, that's, that's fake. It is fake? I have a feeling that was fake.

Not me lying during the fun fact segment.

Yeah, they, um, oh, weeks, months, even years. They have a memory.

Oh, why are we selling them short?

And Live Science says what's baffling is that it's the same wherever you go in the world, this myth. In some places it's like 2 seconds, others it's 10. It's always really short.

That's funny.

Yeah.

I wonder if that's like from like literature or something that we all just—

Yeah, somebody just made it up.

There's got to be something about Britain though, because before ticks, The oldest goldfish was another British goldfish and his name was Fred and he lived to be 40 years old. Look at him. So Tish only had what, 3 years on him?

Oh my God. And he, he like is silvery.

Oh yeah. That was the other thing. When he got older, his, his scales start, uh, they started to turn silver.

Oh my God. He had like, he's like a silver fox. He's a silver fish. He's a silver fish. I love that.

So that— I think that's one of the most fun facts.

I really like that one.

I think we needed that.

I know Tish is dead, but long live Tish.

Long live the memory of Tish.

Yeah, long live fish like Tish. Fish like Tish.

That would be a great children's book, and it will be ours. Don't take it. Yeah. Thank you again to our sponsor State Farm for sponsoring this segment. All right, well, thank you State Farm for sponsoring our fun fact segment. And weirdos, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you— Keep it weird. But not so weird that you don't try to make your goldfish live 44 years so that you can get into the Guinness Book of World Records.

It's true. Bye.

Bye.