Transcript of Pastors CONFRONT Top 5 Megachurch Myths (ft. Joby Martin) | Live Free with Josh Howerton New

I don't care if you have oceanfront property in Ponte Vedra Beach or you're in cell block D in Marion Correctional. If you put your faith in Jesus, he'll change everything about everything about everything.

The unspoken rule with the world has with pastors, you take it easy on us, we'll take it easy on you. And the second a pastor breaks that rule, all hell will break loose on your life. But that's the moment that all of heaven starts to break loose in your church.

Amen.

Well, hey, Live Free Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Pointe Church in Dallas, Texas. Texas, but the Live Free Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this, we want to invite you to take a simple next step, and that is join us for church online. Every weekend we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook, and our church online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you, and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, Church Online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Pointe. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend. And now enjoy the podcast.

Bishop J.B. Martin, welcome to Live Free.

Pastor Josh Howerton, it's always a pleasure.

Dude, this is awesome. So we're actually recording right here from, uh,

the retreat

center. Where are we? Where, where, what city am I? Woodbine, Georgia. Yeah, this is awesome, man. We're leading a cohort with some great The

future is bright in the local American church, brother.

Yeah. So you want to— because they don't know what I'm talking about— well, give the— what's the postage stamp to what we're doing right now?

Do you mean with the pastors?

Yeah. Yeah.

Uh, we're doing for some other people what some other people did for us, man. Uh, it was— this was your idea. I had finished something at Lake Point and we were hanging out at— by your fire pit, and you talked me into getting together some of the young guys that God's just got his hand on and spending some time with them. And so I said, if you'll do it with me, I'll do it. And here we are.

It's awesome, man. Yeah. Um, this is your second time on the pod.

Yeah, I know.

I'm excited about it. Uh, let me just— I'm gonna say something, and then every time I— every time I have you on, uh, I'm gonna say the same thing because I want people to know it. And it probably makes you uncomfortable. I'll do it every time. In 2019, here's my little thing. In 2019, for people who don't know, I had 8 months of pretty aggressive anxiety attacks. And way back then I decided to hear preaching. I needed a preacher, and I decided on Joey Martin. And so when I was— 2019, for those 8 months, every single Monday I would just wake up, walk down to the bass pond, open my Bible, get my coffee, and listen to you preach. And I heard a million times things like, what's propitiation? It's a payment that satisfies. Right. What's condemnation mean? It's a builder's term meaning unfit for you. I can do all the things.

Yeah.

And, uh, dude, um, you know, I don't know why I can't talk about it without my eyes sweating, but the Lord used you to pull me out of the hardest— it was the hardest season of my entire life. And, uh, I'd take a bullet for you. And I'm very, very grateful for your friendship and the way God's used you in my life. Thank you.

You're welcome. I knew about you before I knew you. Um, I had been watching from afar because I knew Stroop so well.

Yeah.

And I was just cheering you on when you took over and took off and So it was kind of crazy that it had any kind of impact in your life whatsoever. So I've been a big fan of all the things you've been doing for a long time.

Well, significant, bro. I tell my church this all the time. Literally this last week's sermon, I went through this whole thing. I was like, Joby, he's like if Billy Graham and Larry the Cable Guy had a baby. And I was like, hey man, he's my preacher. 10% of everything you hear came from Joby Martin. I tell him all the things.

Well,

you pastor at my church vicariously.

And Lake Pointe is an amazing church. Yeah. I mean, the thing is, the people that criticize those of us that quote other preachers and don't spend 45 minutes just footnoting our sermons, I mean, we give credit often and we sprinkle it in there. So I've said it before, you can't steal what's freely given. And so I've learned from so many people. I use your stuff all the time. I try to say, my friend Josh Howard said, but You can't say that like 9 times in one paragraph. You know what I mean? I've heard you do this, and I've done this too before. Occasionally I'll just stop and I'll say, much of this sermon came from one of these 4 people.

Yep.

You know, but it's kind of sad that we live in a day and age where we, um, I mean, I'm all for giving credit, that's— but, but just to even have to change anything because of what the naysayers will say.

Well, uh, that's One of the things I want to talk about, so let me just, if you're listening, let me give you a heads up where we're going to go. First of all, both of us, by God's grace, and we say this, I pray with the most amount of humility before the Lord, we're seeing unique things happen in our churches. And I want to talk about, I think both of us baptized, we baptized almost 900 people last week. You guys, how many people did you baptize a second ago?

927.

Yeah, man.

Last Sunday for us.

I don't even know how to describe it. And when I was a kid, I could not have even fathomed it. So I want to talk about what we're seeing around the country. I want to, if we feel comfortable, maybe we'll edit this out. I want to talk about new realities facing pastors where it's like there's a whole online industry of pastor critique, which is new, bro. That's new to us. That's a little new to me.

It's kind of weird, isn't

it? It's a little weird, man.

Some things the Bible calls sin, other people call ministry. That's weird.

Well, we'll get there. We'll get there. Because dude, I will say, for listeners, I'll probably only do this once, is I want to help people who are in churches because they don't know how to think about it.

Correct.

They just see crap online and they're like, is that true?

And I'll double down on Live Free. I don't know when this is coming out. So for me it was Monday.

Yeah.

Because you talked about calling out sheep in wolves' clothing.

Yeah.

particularly in your state, man. You got a crazy person trying to be in charge.

Just a smidge.

Bro. And his—

You know, God has 6 genders.

Quote unquote pastor.

Yeah.

So anyway, there is a place for that.

Yeah.

But the Bible talks a lot about disunity. It doesn't say good things.

We'll get there.

Okay.

We'll get there. And then dude, I just, we'll do our best to be as wise with it as we can.

Okay.

One of the most frequent questions we get, Because Live Free is a lot of people, but it's a bunch of young dudes. So one of the big questions guys have is they're looking at demographics and it's like, man, young women skewing hard left, young men skewing hard right. And then honestly, dude, there's a bunch of young guys going like, where do I find a good wife now?

Well, didn't you find your wife from a demographic study?

I did not. We'll get to that too.

Oh gosh.

And then last thing I want to do is we'll just try not to step in it. is rapid-fire megachurch myths. Great. Objections that people do. So let me start right here, man, because I like hearing the stories of the people that influence me. Give me the 3-minute, how did a kid from maybe a rougher background from Dillon, South Carolina, go from there to pastoring? I'll just say it. I'll say something you won't say, the fastest growing church plant in American history.

Well, my daddy said the best thing ever come out of Dillon, South Carolina is I-95, and that's a fact, bro. Uh, we didn't grow up in church at all. Uh, we would go on Easter only, and, uh, great church, I'm sure, and I just didn't connect. It just wasn't part of our world. I got in some trouble in high school, find myself at a camp run by one of the deacons, Coach Bulley, from that church, and, uh, that's where I met Jesus. the counselors reenacted the crucifixion of Christ. And for the first time, when Jesus says, it is finished, I knew it counted for me. And this was old school Baptist, so we sang Just As I Am about 18 times around a campfire on the last night of camp. And then Coach Lee gets up and says, I think there's one more. And it was me, and I got saved. And then I started working at that camp, um, like just cutting the grass and stuff. And then one day, I'm like 18 years old and I'm in the back of the room, maybe 19. And Coach Lee said, boy, when the guy's done singing, you're up.

And he was singing I Am a Sea with an overhead projector.

Hand motions.

Yeah. You know, you had that dude, you had to have that one person like hold the words and like move

'em up

and down.

Oh yeah, I was that guy in the youth ministry.

Let's go.

Yeah.

And I was like, Coach, Anyway, I told him I wasn't comfortable. And just imagine 1980s hardcore football coach. He said, boy, did you say comfortable? You think Daniel was comfortable in the lion's den? He's preaching me a sermon back there. You think Paul and Silas are comfortable in prison? Boy, do you think Jesus Christ was comfortable on the cross? I was like, uh, no. And I said, coach, what do I talk about? He said, boy, that's easy. You talk about Jesus. You talk about 30 minutes. Go. And I preached my first sermon and some kids got saved. And when I got done, he put his finger on my chest and said, boy, when you teach the Bible, I see you come alive and I see them come alive. Hmm. And then a few months later, I'm just serving at my church while I'm in college, leading 10th grade boys. And we were doing a Disciple Now weekend, and the guy gives a salvation invitation and like a rededication opportunity. And then some of you may be called to full-time vocational ministry. And I was overwhelmed with the presence of God. I had to go to my dad and say, Daddy, I'm not going to seminary.

I mean, I'm not going to med school. I just got accepted to the Medical College of Virginia. And I said, I'm not doing that. I'm going to seminary. And he's like, what is seminary? And I said, well, it's like school for preachers. And he's like, why the heck you need a school to be a preacher? You only study one book and work half a day a week. And I was like, I don't know, but I feel like that's the next step. Bro, it's funny.

That's like what half of our churches actually think.

Yeah, 100%.

I actually think that.

100%. So that's what I did. And then I was a youth pastor and I thought I was going to do student ministry forever.

Well, wait, let me do something real quick. Didn't you go to a pretty liberal seminary?

No, I went to a very liberal seminary.

Oh,

okay. Very, very, very.

It's like, am I allowed to ask it if we need to edit anything out?

No, we don't have to edit anything.

What was it? And then what was it? I've never heard you tell this.

So it was Baptist Theological Seminary of Richmond. And a part of the problem, when you don't grow up in church, you don't know what's happening in church world.

Yeah.

So all of the professors that did not believe the Bible, when they got fired from the Big 6 Southern Baptist schools because they were heretics, they assembled together with great animosity and started Baptist Theological Seminary of Richmond. And I thought, well, I'm working at a Baptist church. There's a Baptist school right here. I mean, I visited Southwestern and Southern and Southeastern. I thought that's where I'd go. And I loved those students that I was serving and I just didn't know. And it's all my responsibility and nobody told me. Yeah. And I showed up on campus and I'm like, what the heck? And so we're about, it's like my third week and my professor is, she's talking about the resurrection as if it's a myth or a story,

bro.

And I'm like, hold on one second, I got a question. She said, what's up? And I was like, it sounds like you don't believe in the bodily resurrection. And she goes, well, what ha— so what if I don't? I said, well, when I get to heaven, you won't be there.

You said this in a class?

I'm 3 weeks in with this professor who has a PhD in Johannine literature,

okay?

And I got saved at summer camp. single-digit years ago and had done many quiet times. And so my whole seminary experience and the Lord, things were going so well in the student ministry. And I also thought that these kids will never leave me. I didn't realize they graduate every 4 years and that kind of thing. And so I was just so in love with what I was doing. So I had to go to war every class. I had to get permission to write papers twice as long. And I would literally say, and I've got, I can be a bit antagonistic. And now I'm 53. When I was 24 or whatever, it was bad. And I would say, this is the heresy you've been teaching. Because basically for a paper in school, you just have to regurgitate what they've been telling you. And then I'd say, and this is biblical Christianity.

Bro.

And I had to petition the president to graduate.

No.

Because they failed me. Everybody failed me.

Seriously?

Seriously. And I just had to be like, listen, I've done the work and y'all just disagree with me theologically, me and Jesus, but that's fine. And then I finally was like, do you really want me back? And he said, congratulations, you can walk.

So did you stay all 3 years? Yep. I'm just curious. I've never asked you. What made you stay 3 years when it was like, I'm surrounded by actual heretics?

The churches I was serving.

You're like, I got to stay with these people.

That's it. I was just serving the local church.

Dude, what's interesting to me about that is, I think it's Dark Knight Rises where they throw Bruce Wayne down in the pit and he breaks his back. And then the whole process of him climbing out is how he becomes Batman. It's a little bit of like, well, that's a little bit of how Joby became Batman.

Yeah. I was a little bit of an apologist before I even knew what that was because I had to argue orthodox Christianity against people that were exponentially more educated than me.

So this— we didn't even plan to talk about this. I'm curious, what were like the other like main things that they were pumping out in that seminary? It was like, I had to deal with that.

Everything that you call progressive Christianity.

Oh, it was that,

bro. But this is the mid-'90s, so I started in '95, so nobody had ever heard like sexuality kind of up to you and it's biblical. Dominique Crosan and the Jesus seminars where they're voting on what Jesus may have said, may not have said. That was like—

Yep.

They would say things like, this isn't the word of God, this contains words from God. Yep. Things like that. And in fact, you were required to attend chapel and I would go. And then somebody from the chapel stage gave this very, very disparaging comment. comment on Adrian Rogers and people cheered. And I was like, I'll never be back.

If you're listening and you don't know who Adrian Rogers is, legend.

Legend.

One of the greatest preachers in the history of America.

Right.

Bible believer, 10 toes down.

Yeah. And so I'm back in the president's office. I'm like, you have to come to chapel. And I was like, that is a house of gossip. Can we just walk through the epistles on what the Bible says that we're supposed to be doing in there? So funny enough, I have preached at most of the Southern Baptist seminaries as a guest chapel speaker. I've never been invited back to— and if I did go, I would go on a mission trip to share the gospel. Yeah.

What would you preach? Do you, like, off the top of your head? I would preach this passage.

Just probably straight Romans 3.

Yeah,

just the gospel. Because honest to goodness, they,

they need to get saved.

They need to get saved. They need to surrender their life to the lordship of Christ.

All right, so I'm sorry, I dovetail this. So, all right.

The good news is none of 'em work at

church. Yeah.

They all work at coffee shops and they always made fun of me 'cause I was always like, I gotta go lead a youth group. But it's a great way to do seminary 'cause the whole, you'll be like, that won't preach 'cause it's not true.

Yeah.

So it was helpful.

All right, so you get outta there, then I just wanna get from there to I'm pastoring the fastest growing church plant in American history, it's 35,000 people.

I graduate and then it finally dawns on me, oh no, nobody's gonna hire me. I wouldn't hire me from this place. And this incredible godly man named Dr. Bill Ross hired me, and I go to work at Vinton Baptist Church just outside of Roanoke, Virginia. And it, it was just the time of my life, man. Student ministry's growing and blowing. He's showing me how to be a man, um, in the ministry. I meet Gretchen in the gym about 4 months after I get there. Mm-hmm. Within a year and a half, we're married. And then he, Dr. Ross, says, I'm going to Athens to work at a church there, and I want y'all to come with me and run students in college. So we get there. Most of the people in that church are liberal, and I didn't realize that. And the only people that really wanted like Bible-believing, Bible-teaching folks was the committee that hired me and Dr. Bill. And so—

God bless 'em.

But boy, we got beat down. I came this close to leaving ministry in 2003. Gretchen talked me into staying in and giving it one more chance. That landed us in Jacksonville, Florida. Florida at Beach Church under Pastor Jerry Sweat, the best Christian I've ever met in my whole life. Did that for about 10 years. We started a service that started at 11:22 AM on Sunday mornings, and I just called it that so that people would know what time to come. And I'm not creative. In about, I don't know, in less than a year, our services, it turned into 4 or 5 services and it outgrown the church we were at. And he came to me and said, I think you should plant a church and we'll plant you. And then they let us live there for another year and a half while we got everything together, renovated and all Walmart. And we launched 1122 September 23rd, 2012.

14 years ago.

Yep.

Dude, for people who are listening, they don't know how rare— Jerry Sweat was his name. They do not realize no one does what he did. No pastor anywhere looks at a massive service in his church and then says, hey man, you know what you ought to do? Take all these people in my church and leave so that the kingdom can advance. Nobody does that.

Yeah. And at that point, that church was a part of the United Methodist denomination, but it wasn't like your United Methodist guy's running for office. It's not like that. Yeah, dude, we went to one of his conferences one time. I should tell you about that.

Who you talking about?

What's his name? You just talked about—

James Talorico?

Nope. The other guy that you mentioned, Adam.

Oh, Adam Hamilton.

Yeah, him.

He's a heretic running for— literal. I'm not saying that to be mean, like an actual literal heretic.

An actual heretic. I went to the first session and the whole session was about how his church is for thinking people because normal church people aren't smart enough to tell them how the Bible actually got put together and stuff.

You went to his—

Well, Beach Church was a Methodist church and it was a big church. And so our team was trying to— I didn't sign up. I'm not a Methodist.

Yeah, you don't know.

And so I just show up with the team and I was like, I'm not going to this crap.

Yeah.

And I didn't. I went and shared the gospel on the street and worked on my youth talk while everybody else was in these. Anyway, so I'm not surprised that that was the beginnings of it, but it was terrible. So anyway, Beach was a Jesus-loving, love lost people kind of church.

Love the Bible.

Love the Bible. And since then they have left the United Methodist Church when they went just complete apostate.

Yeah. Again, for people who don't know, the United Methodist Church made an actual decision decision to just actually institutionally embrace heterodoxy and become LGBT affirming a few years ago.

And not just affirming, but in positions of leadership and pastoral positions. And I mean, just—

So when he's talking about them leaving the denomination, he's not saying that is a bad thing. He's saying that is a very, very good thing.

Well, here's what happened. That denomination left the Bible.

Yes.

And Beach Church stayed with the Bible. Bingo. That's a better way to say it.

We didn't move. Correct. You moved. We didn't move.

It's a great church, man. It's still a great church.

That's awesome, dude.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Pastor Jerry, we just did a church leader summit at 11:22 and had almost 2,000 pastors. We told Pastor Jerry's story and he opened the whole thing in prayer.

I love that you did that.

Of course.

That's awesome. Yeah. Okay, let me transition, but it's real lit. So right now, for real, you're the— I tell people this all the time, Church 11:22, which by the way, I think it's absolutely— people ask me all the time because I quote you all the time. What's the Bible verse behind 11:22?

It is in Mark 11:22.

Oh, really?

Oh, I proof-texted one. It's hard to find.

So you came up with it afterwards?

Yeah. Yeah. We picked the time first and then a guy started making bumper stickers and handing 'em out. So when we started the church, Gretchen was like, are we really going to call it 11:22? I'm like, what are we going to do with all the bumper stickers? It's kind of a thing. And so there's not a lot of good 11:22 verses. Proverbs 11:22 says, like a gold ring in a pig snout is a woman without discretion. So that was almost our thing.

That's the 11:22 Women's Conference headline.

Mark 11:22 says, Jesus answered, have faith in God.

There you go. Yeah. Good. We found something.

Yeah.

All right. So man, both of us are seeing— honestly, in my wildest dreams when God called me to ministry when I was 16, I could not have imagined being a part of what we get to do right now.

Totally.

I honestly, I think we baptized 882 a couple weeks ago. And dude, I just sat in the back and honestly, I cried like a little baby. I did. I was just back there. My eyes sweating. You guys baptized, bro.

We've baptized—

Baptized 4,000 people this year.

It's like 5,084.

Dude. And if you're lit, I don't think you understand in all of church history, there may be a small handful of churches who have seen that. So let me just ask a question. We'll just get right at it. Both of us are seeing really unique moves of God at our churches. Honestly, man, I don't know about you, but I feel like we're breaking— I feel like I'm breaking a lot of the rules everybody told me what you needed to do and not do to grow a church. Like, hey man, never preach above a 6th grade level. Anything that's any controversial, has a little edge to it, just keep that private. We'll handle that in conversations, not from the pulpit. Be a mile wide and an inch deep. And bro, you, right now, What week of preaching verse by verse through Matthew are you in? How many weeks are you going to do a Matthew total?

However many weeks there've been in the year. We started the first week of January. We'll take it all the way to Thanksgiving.

Yeah. A couple years ago, I listened to every single one of them. You started the year and you went, hey guys, hope you like the book of Romans because the entire year we're in Romans. You're going to love it. And so it's like, man, you guys, my favorite, I say this all the time, I said this to Phil Pantheon Mitchell, There's 2 ways to preach. You can preach like a feather duster or you can preach like a jackhammer. I like guys who preach like a jackhammer where they just sort of open up the word and the word is the sword in the word and they just choose violence.

I love me some Philip Anthony Mitchell. Yeah. God has blessed our generation with his voice.

Yes.

He's a godly man. Yes. And you only get to see a glimpse of it on stage. Like, the real Philip Anthony Mitchell's best days are in that prayer closet just getting after it. But mine's kind of normal routine now because our first service starts on Thursday nights, and I'll— at 5:22. And so I'll try to get everything buttoned up by 2, run across the street to the gym and listen to a Philip Anthony Mitchell sermon just to like—

That'll get you a good workout.

That's it. It just— I just need that little extra fire. as I'm going in. And so he's been an incredible blessing.

All right. Well, honestly, all 3 of us, it's like, and this is no shade at anybody, people do it different. But honestly, it's kind of like all the stereotypes of megachurches, I kind of feel like y'all, you break all of them.

We don't do any.

It's like you don't do any of that stuff. It's not a mile wide and an inch deep. You're preaching verse by verse through Romans for 45 weeks. So here's the question. Okay. You're breaking all the quote unquote rules, and yet you're seeing an outpouring of the Spirit. It's like an open heaven over 1122. Why do you think some of the churches that are breaking all the rules are the ones that are seeing the most kingdom advance right now?

I think some of it is just the favor of God. There are people that preach better than me and know the Bible better than I do and pray harder than I do. And in God's sovereign plan, he's just decided to put his favor upon us. I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. We sing all the same songs. We all teach from the same Bible. I don't know. I appreciate the guys that have gone before us that fought all the worship wars, and we can preach in jeans and not take ourselves seriously. I have a great appreciation for that, but I'm glad we've gone beyond that. Yeah. And I'm not in the crowd business. We're in the disciple-making business. And I think that's the difference. I think the seeker has changed. And I think folks are saying, okay, if I'm going to show up and give you an hour and a half at a church, then just give me the goods, man.

Yes, dude.

Just put, what are you asking? What is he asking me to do? Just tell me what it actually says. And I don't need a bait and switch. Just tell me what it says. And I think, and then ultimately Jesus said, if you lift him up, he'll draw all men unto you. So I can't save anybody. And I'm not in the crowd business. I'm not just trying to get bigger attendance. I'm trying to make disciples. That is the imperative in the Great Commission.

Yeah, dude, I think there's really something too. There's a spiritual aspect and there's a human reality. There is no— the thing that I'll tell churches all the time is, hey man, The Spirit of God authored the word of God. And so the preaching the word of God attracts the presence of God.

And

if we get the presence of God, the presence of God will attract the people.

Amen.

And so it's like, man, if you just— there's a— listen, dude, I don't care who you are. There's power in that book.

The other thing, man, is a lot of guys, they're preaching for the audience of their favorite famous Christian pastor that they hope's listening. First of all, he ain't listening. Or they're preaching to impress their dead seminary professors.

He ain't listening,

bro.

He ain't listening.

I'm just preaching to the man and the woman that I see sitting right there in the second row. So if— because I'll tell you, there's been a couple times where I feel really intimidated because I'm preaching a conference with like John Piper, and I'm like, he is going to laugh at my illustrations. and think it's silly. Because you're right, there's a lot of Larry the Cable Guy in there because it's just who I am and how I grew up and a lot of that stuff.

I use all your jokes.

But the reality is, is what Dr. Piper actually did the first time I met him is I walk up to him. There's— I mean, of all the preachers, I got to have dinner with Billy Graham one time and then shake hands with Dr. Piper and share a stage with him, like back-to-back preaching. And I walk up to him, I'm like, Dr. Piper, I know everybody's told you this a million times, but I just want to tell you again, I'm Joby Martin from 1122. And he goes, I know 1122. And I was like, hold on one second, Gretchen, come here. Can you say that last part again? Okay. Nothing but encouragement. Nothing but encouragement.

Do you know how he heard about you?

Probably Matt Chandler.

Ah, yeah.

Just because they're real tight.

Yeah.

And then he says, uh, will you sit with me in this service? So we're sitting together on the front row. His leg is touching my leg and I'm like, Lord, would you pass the double anointing from Elijah to Elisha on me?

I believe in impartation in this moment.

Then he said, will you pray for me before I preach? I'm like, yes, sir. So anyway, but I'm not trying to preach to John Piper. I'm trying to preach to just the people that show up that God brings to 1122. People in struggling marriages and prodigal kids and people that have been a Christian a long time, but they feel stuck, whatever it is. And I think a lot of times too many preachers are trying to go viral instead of just be faithful to the text and just preach the word.

That's right, man. Yeah, it's really interesting. So I'm reading a Charles Spurgeon biography right now.

Let's go.

And because I listen to you so much, I'm reading the stuff about his preaching. And there was a sentence I read the other day that I was like, that's Joey. Because what the guy said, the biographer said, if you don't know who that is and you're listening, Charles Spurgeon is generally considered the greatest preacher since the New Testament era. It's called the Prince of Preachers. He was pastoring a church of 10,000. I just read the other day, he preached to 24,000 people at one time without a microphone. Wow. And this is mid to late 1800s, no mic, and the dude was just a baller. And they said this about his preaching. Well, I read it, I was like, that's Joby. Is they said the 2 things that marked Charles Spurgeon's preaching is he had an extremely high Christ— he had a very high theological awareness and undergirding his Puritan, all the things, all the things. Yeah. But because he experienced, and I'm not saying this is why you do it, I'm just talking about what you do. Because he experienced extreme suffering, his wife was an invalid. He had extreme, I think it was Bright's disease is what now they think it was his whole life.

They said he had this thing where his preaching would go really high doctrinally, But then really low at the compassion level where it just felt like it's a man just crawling up right next to your hospital bed. And there was a tenderness to him. And when I read that sentence, I was like, that's Joby Martin. That's that.

Well, I love Jesus and I love people. And I want the people that I love to love Jesus because he first loved them.

That's right.

And so I just tell them about it.

Now, dude, I got to do this. We didn't plan to do this, but I got to do this. Will you tell the Billy Graham story?

Oh man, I'm on a mission trip, uh, and this guy calls me and he's a doctor at Mayo. And Dr. Graham would come to Jacksonville and go to Mayo to do all of his checkups and stuff. And he was attending 11:22 and he's like, hey, I need you to pray about something. Would you and Gretchen like to have dinner with us and Dr. Billy Graham? And I'm like, bro, some things you don't pray about, okay?

Bro, I literally can't even imagine.

I have prayed for this. So I'm like, of course. So we show up, and this is not like you're invited to a dinner with, and there's a hall of people and the guy's up on stage. No, no, no. It was the homeowner, his wife, their daughter, Dr. Graham at the head of the table, me, Gretchen, and then Dr. Graham traveled with a travel companion and a nurse. That's it. At the family dinner. dining room table. So I read 2 of his biographies in the couple of weeks going into it just so I'd be all fresh. And I walk in the door and there's Billy Graham. And he had met— in one of his biographies, he met like Joe DiMaggio or some famous player, and he was like, oh, it's the greatest day of my life. And so when I met him, I was like, Dr. Graham, I was reading about how when you got to meet, I think it was Joe DiMaggio, This is that moment for me. And he says, oh, Pastor, tell me about your church. And I was like, babe, did you hear that? He called me Pastor. And she's like, it's because he probably don't know your name.

I'm like, woman. So we had just baptized, I think it was 126 people the weekend before in the ocean. And I was like, well, we just baptized 126 people. He looks shocked. He backs up and he goes, I've never heard of such a thing. And I was like, you know, I think you have. I read that you had 75,000 people in Seoul, Korea get saved 3 years ago. But okay, you know what I mean? Yeah. But here's the thing, dude. He never compared my ministry to his ministry. He just celebrated what we were doing. So we sit down at dinner. We were together maybe like 4 and a half hours. And we sit down at dinner and we're just kind of chatting. And then he looks over at Gretchen and he goes, Miss Martin, I understand that you're a worship leader at the church. And he was like, she said, yes, sir. And he said, will you sing me a song? And Gretchen looks at me and I was like, if Billy says sing, woman, you better sing. You got it. So she gets up. He couldn't hear very well, see very well at this point.

And she comes over and kneels down and she just starts singing this song and he closes his eyes. And he just lifts his hands at the table. Oh. No show. He's just, okay. And then she looks at me and you know how when it's just slamming at the end of the service and the altars are flooded and you're like, I know we scheduled one song, but— and she looked at me and I did the just like, let's keep it going. The buses will wait. And so eventually she gets done. He looks right in her eyes and he goes, I believe that's the most beautiful song I've ever heard. Now listen, my wife can sing, but he's heard some songs, man. But again, there was no comparison. I asked him to pray for our ministry. He grabbed my hand and Gretchen's hand and never mentioned the ministry. He said, God, I pray for this man. I pray you'll protect him from himself. I pray for his marriage. I pray that he would love his wife and he would make disciples and you will build your church. And when he— we were driving home and Gretchen was like, something's different in my life.

And she had been leading worship and kind of reluctantly, she had all the talent, but she didn't want to be on stage. Everybody look at her. That was gone and broken. Man. And then right before dinner was over, I said, Dr. Graham, if you could preach one more crusade, what would it be? And I mean, before I got the sentence out, he said, that would be Galatians 6:14. Now, at that point in my life, I had yet to memorize Galatians 6:14. I didn't even know what it said. So I was just mooing, like, I was like, mm, mm, Galatians 6, mm, that is so— and I pull my phone out and go to my YouVersion Bible app because he can't see.

Shout out Craig.

And I go to Galatians 6:14, which says, far be it from me to boast in anything except the cross of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the man that's got the right to brag about everything. Yeah, man.

Bro,

that was our time together.

That's a story.

No doubt.

Dude, what's so interesting about that is like So 2 guys that have influenced both of us significantly. It's funny, you and me have a similar story with the John Piper sermon from Passion One Day. By the way, my XP Tim Smith, shout out. He helped, did you know he helped quarterback that Passion One Day?

No way.

Bro, he's the one that did a bunch of the, he set up all that stuff. So he was there and everything.

I have the, not the one that Dr. Piper was holding, but I have the Reader's Digest that he reads from.

You showed it to me when I preached at Logos.

Yeah. Somebody heard me preach about it and they had it at their, grandma had it at their house. They brought it to me. me sitting on my desk.

I think we have a— we don't even— we're going to move on and talk about what we're going to talk about. But I think we got a similar thing. Shout out, his name was Lewis Curd at Union University. He handed me a burned CD of that dadgum sermon, and I bet I listened to that thing, no joke, 200 times. I literally could have quoted that sermon, I think, word for word. When Janet and I started dating, we go on a blind date. I think it was our third date. I was like, hey, instead of music, let's listen to this. And in my mind it was kind of like, if she's out on this, I'm probably out on her.

Yeah.

It was like, it just— I don't think I'd be doing what I'm doing if it wasn't for God pouring out his Spirit on this girl.

I was leading a college ministry at UGA and we had a Bible study that night and this kid comes in and he had a bootleg DVD of the event and he was like, can we watch this? And I was like, okay. And I remember, man, Like, all the cool people were there. It's like David Crowder and Louie. I mean, all the coolest Christians ever. And then out comes this man who looks like he works at Blockbuster.

Ill-fitting Dockers.

Yeah. We watch it beginning to end. It's only like 42 minutes. And then everybody's undone. And the whole point of it is just don't waste your life. That's the whole point. Don't chase after the things of this world. Chase after Jesus, find your joy in him by being on mission for him. It finishes, everybody looks at me because I'm like the college pastor. And I just said, play it again. And we watched it 3 times.

Geez. What's interesting is the boast only in the cross. So you got that from Graham. That's like Piper's thing. I think he mentions it in that sermon. It's either that or the other one. But it's very interesting. Galatians 6:14, there may be something too. Hey, real quick, can somebody look up what people, if people want to search that sermon on YouTube, can somebody tell me what to search? Because people are going to, you will want to pause this podcast to go listen to that. So just tell me whenever you find it. But dude, that just, it wrecked my life completely.

It's still wrecking my life.

I mean, I still, well, nevermind. We'll move on. Okay. Anybody get it?

Boasting Only in the Cross, John Piper, Passion One Day

2000. Boasting Only in the Cross, Passion One Day 2000. Worth your time. Correct. Worth your time. Okay, let's fast forward and talk about this stuff. Okay, so I just, I want to see what you think about this. So almost every pastor I know, I think probably both of us, but almost every pastor I know, they're experiencing 2 things simultaneously at the same time, more salvation, more outpouring of God's Spirit, more baptism, and more opposition, more honestly, just sort of viciousness, and then more sort of attack. And I feel like both those are happening at the same time. I'm honestly just curious, you got any thoughts why you think that is?

On the last Live Free, you talked about the 50-year cycles of revival and the communication breakthroughs that accompanied those things. I triple stamp that. No takebacks, man. I'm into it. I also think in the— I remember COVID, all the race riots, everything's burning down, all of that that was going on in 2020, and we're all freaking out. I happened to be with Larry Osborne and he's like, guys, this isn't new. Y'all don't remember the late '60s? And we were like, well, we weren't born yet, so say more. Very, very similar. And out of that comes the Jesus Revolution.

That's right.

Dude, it's interesting. About 5 years ago, 6 years ago, I did a series for like, for a long time at our church called Gospel Awakenings, where we just studied the ingredients of revival and we began to pray for 11:22. Why not us? Why not here? Why not now? Interesting. Yeah. And,

uh, did you do just like revival texts in the scriptures? What'd you do? You go like Nehemiah.

This is from memory. It was more like some of the things that— some of the ingredients, according to really smart people, was a pursuit of holiness.

Yeah.

Uh, there was a repent— like serious, serious repentance. People getting serious about evangelism, not, not as a strategy, but like the people they loved. Um, and then there's the unexplainable Spirit of God shows up. And so we did a week on each of those and we were praying for a revival. Hallelujah. And we are in it.

Yes, you are.

And so are you. And then you're right. And then the— I mean, I reached out to you a couple weeks ago. By the way, thanks again for that, you and Philip talking. It ministered to my soul at just the right time in just the right way. And so I appreciate it. But yeah, man, people have become more and more vicious. And one of the things you've reminded me of is that that's not new, man. It's just, you know, same demons, different days, that Paul would go into a city, revival would break out, and a riot would follow. And the internet has just made normal people really mean.

Bro, yes.

I mean, I heard Pakluta said this at our place last week, but when I was growing up, if somebody said something about you, you'd say, say it to my face. And there were some consequences involved there.

If

you can't say it to somebody's face or you wouldn't say it that way to somebody's face, then you probably shouldn't type it,

bro. It's been interesting.

Text it, tweet it, any of that.

Something. Yeah. I think that there's a little schema that I just, I did, I think I did 44 weeks in Acts. And bro, here's a little exercise for if you're a listener or you're a pastor, here's a little exercise for you. So obviously this, I've heard somebody said, whatever God creates, Satan counterfeits. So God does the Holy Spirit, Satan counterfeits with unholy spirits. Yeah. The Bible calls demons. So wherever there is an action of the Holy Spirit, there's always going to be an opposite reaction of unholy spirits. The Bible calls demons, bro. I did it when I was studying for Acts. If you go through the book of Acts and you take 2 highlighters, And every single time there's a revival or outpouring of God's Spirit, you do one color. And then every time there's a riot or a Christian gets murdered, you do another color. Literally the entire outline of the book of Acts is revival, riot, revival, riot, revival, riot. And bro, I don't know if you feel this way. I don't think we talk about this. I literally will tell my team now, I knew, I was like, we're going to baptize minimum 700 people this week.

Yeah.

I will literally start telling my team the next week, I have no idea what it is. The next week you are going to see some massive opposition. Be ready. And I have never been wrong. Not because I'm right, because the Bible told me so. Well, you got any thoughts on that?

Well, you see it in the scriptures all the time. Last, so we do this thing called Saturated in the fall.

Bro, let me just say, I'm in my workout room. I listen every year. It's amazing.

It's incredible. Robbie Gallaty, Jenny Allen, JP Pecluta, Jason Shepherd, and then me on Sunday. We baptized 900+ people. The following weekend, I started with, wasn't it awesome? Get ready.

Yeah.

The enemy. Here comes the enemy. And I said, to quote my friend Josh Howerton, the birthmark of the believer is the bullseye.

Which I got that from somebody else.

And so, I mean, look at it in the Bible, man. Jesus gets baptized. That's a high holy moment. He has not been connected to the Father the way he has eternally because he is incarnate in here. And he comes out of the water, the heavens open up, and God the Father says, behold my Son in whom I'm well pleased. You think you feel good when your dad gives you an attaboy? How about when the Heavenly Father speaks?

Awesome.

High moment. The next verse, he's in the desert for 40 days going nose to nose with Satan himself. You look at the mountain of transfiguration, that's a High Holy moment. I mean, Elijah and Moses and Jesus is displaying his glory, whatever that means. I mean, this is awesome. Then they go walking down the mountain and what's happening? Jesus gets to the point where he says to the disciples, how long am I going to be with you? Because they get into a denominational argument about something. Meanwhile, there's a dad there with a sick kid and they're not doing anything about it. That's a valley. Hmm. You see it in Paul's life. You see it at the Lord's Supper, man. Here are the disciples, this high holy moment. He's washing their feet. He's connecting all the dots for them. And then just a little while later, he's in the place of crushing, getting crushed. Yeah, this is the biblical paradigm, is mountain, valley, mountain, valley.

Dude, I don't know about you, but it was really— it was about 2 years ago, When we had— and dude, I'm not— I'm— I refuse. I'm not a victim. I absolutely refuse, correct, to think of myself that way. I'm not saying I'm not a victim. Um, but we had— it was like our first like actionable death threat. And then you had the Charlie Kirk thing the next year and that kind of stuff.

Didn't that make you feel a certain way when you got up on stage the next time?

Honestly, honestly, it did. Yeah, honestly it did.

It was the first night of Saturated last year when he got killed that day. And Willie Robertson was kicking it off for us. And me and Willie walked up there like, hmm.

It would— that honestly, it did something weirdly good in me. I really do thank God for what it produced in me, because it was the first time in my life I really had to stop and go, if I get— and Lord willing, this never happens to anyone, but it was the first time I thought I could walk out and get shot in the neck.

Yeah. If I got to go.

Am I prepared for that? And it was really good for me because there was a day where I was like, yep, I would definitely give my life to do this. And it was really good for me.

Yeah, no doubt. Amen.

Really good. All right, so here's the— and depending on how this spot goes, if either of us feel uncomfortable with this, we'll edit it out later. So here's the reality that goes with the opposition and all this stuff.

You would be amazed at how comfortable with uncomfortability I am.

All right, good. Then this is going to be great. Yeah, no problem. This is going to be great. So dude, I'll be honest. Okay. One of the things I'm trying to learn at our scale, and then with the internet becoming what it's becoming, is honestly, dude, people can lie about you faster than you can respond.

Yeah. I just read on the internet I'm supposed to mark and avoid you. We're not supposed to be friends.

I think I'm a false teacher for 11 different things.

Well, one of the good things to do when you get on the false teacher list is see who else is on the list and ask, do I want to be— are these my guys? The first time I ever made the false teacher list, Matt Chandler and Matt Carter were on there with it. And I was like, Christian, look at the list I'm on. And all I did was name the name. She's like, that's awesome. What is it? And I was like, oh, false teachers. So if that's what a false teacher is, sign me up.

All right. I'm just going to— I'll just give some examples. Yeah. And don't talk yet. I'll give the examples and then I'll do my little thing here. So actually I'll do me first and then I'm going to do, fun ones with you. So for instance, dude, I'll give— so here's an example. I'm going to ask you, how do you think about this as a pastor? And then for people who are listening, it's like they're church members. And by the way, I think what both of us figured out is 99.9% of our church, they don't care. They got lives and jobs. We're actually— they have real problems. But it is so like, well, I don't even know how to do it quick. there's this stuff that'll float out there like, oh, Josh lied about his house being a gift, like that all. And it's like, I've never said that. What is 100%— here's an example. What's 100% true is we could not have gotten into the house that we're currently in without the help of some generous Christians and church members.

Right.

And so that's what I'll say. Then somebody on the internet, it'll do the telephone game and they'll be like, oh, Josh's house was a gift. And then 30 people on YouTube will be like, Josh Howerton lied that his house was a gift because we dug up the The mortgage. The documents to his house, that kind of thing. And there's stuff like that. There was a deal where somebody saw 3 different numbers that I dug. This is the kind of stuff we deal with.

On the feeding thing?

Yeah. So they dug up 3 different numbers that Josh lied. He said that the food pantry did 1 million meals a year, and then he said half a million, and this webpage only says 250,000. And it goes viral. That stuff goes viral. And I'm like, well, actually in 2020 and 2021, the food pantry did 1.2 million meals. That's the number that a guy named John Lovell, that's where it came out of the podcast. You know John?

Yeah.

Bro, John's awesome.

Legit.

Bro, John is the best.

No doubt.

So that's the number John uses on his podcast. And then we have one food pantry at our broadcast campus that that food pantry alone does 300,000 meals. And then what we also do is we help facilitate and run 3 other food pantries and collectively The number between all 3 of those is $750,000. So what somebody— it's like, this is what we deal with. What somebody can do is they can take that stuff, they can make it look like you lied when actually it's all totally true. So what I'm dealing with is people can lie faster than a pastor can respond. So Joby, I've heard your net worth is at least $35 million. That's what the internet has reliably told me. Reliably told me.

My favorite part about that one is when it came out, somebody sent that to my wife. And she texted the team that I work with and it just said, can somebody tell Pastor Joby to share some of that money? My wife. That's hilarious.

That's

funny. She's funny.

And then, man, I heard you were using inhumane brainwashing techniques. And so, and bro, so here's a deal that I'm driving at that most people probably don't realize that we have to figure out how to navigate. People can lie about you faster than you respond.

So here's the thing. So even if you take time to explain, so my net worth is not even close. I wish it was $24 million. I hope it is one day.

Lord bless him.

So there's this one website that lists the top 10 richest pastors in the world, and it's got me on there.

Wow.

Yeah. With my net worth at $24 million, it says I was born in 1984. Thank you. It's only 11 years off. Says I was a graduate of Southern Seminary. I was— I didn't go there. It's got a picture of me and Gretchen actually at Tim Tebow's wedding, and under it it says, here's Pastor Rick Warren and his wife.

Okay, bro, no way.

That's what it says. I'll show you the website.

What?

And because somebody posted that one—

Can I show it on the podcast?

100%, please, please, please.

Somebody— will you guys send me the link so I can show it? That's hilarious.

And, uh, so not a reliable source, but somebody put it on the internet, and now other people just Go and grab it and blab it. Now, here's what I think happened is that when we moved into our broadcast location, we started leasing it. And then a few years later, we had a guaranteed purchase price on the whole thing by a godly man that I love so much named Tony Slavin. He helps us plant churches. And so we bought it. The purchase price was $24 million. And I bet if you go into like jacks.gov, government things, legally, organizationally, I'm listed as the president and they just associate me with that purchase price. Now here's the thing, those people don't know how math works. But even if I explain

it, yep,

here's what happens to the people spewing it. They're like, okay, well, and then they just move to the next one and the next one and the next one.

It's like trying to grab water.

I've never heard the person come back and go, Oh, my bad. I had the wrong information.

Yeah. No, I didn't have it.

The inhumane brainwashing techniques.

I'm reliably informed, Joby.

This girl and her girlfriend come walking down the aisle at 11:22 a bunch of years ago, and they were like, we love this church. It's a movement for all people to discover and deepen their relationship with Jesus. Will you do our wedding? And I go, how about we do dinner? I didn't just say no. I said, how about we do dinner?

That's wise.

I just sit down with the Bible, and the first thing that I said— Chantel was the girl's name— and I was like, first thing I need you to know is I love you. God loves you. I want you here. He wants you here. The second thing I want you to hear is we live in a world that's going to lie to you and tell you that me and you can't be friends. So don't believe that lie. I love you, and the world's going to say that I hate you. So you can either believe them or me, but I love you. And we just walked through what the scriptures say about marriage, about sex, and about sexuality. And so long story short, Chantel surrenders her life to Christ and breaks up with her girlfriend. They have to sell the house and figure out what to do with the dog. Come on, man. Now listen, theologically, it costs us all the same to follow Jesus. It costs her more. That's right. So when she was sharing her testimony, she just shares that. She's like, yeah, Pastor Joby said you can't do that. And then we sent her as a missionary to Uganda for a bunch of years.

And so this is a girl—

Are you kidding me?

No, I'm not kidding.

What a testimony.

Right. Now today, what the enemy has done is they call that conversion therapy.

We call that discipling someone.

I'm just, do whatever you want to do. I'm just telling you what the book says. If you don't want to do it, and particularly somebody that's coming to me saying, I want to align my life with the scriptures. I don't want my feelings and attractions to be the Lord of my life. I want Jesus to be the Lord of my life. Pastor, can you help me? I can help you. And what I'm going to help you with is the Bible. And so that was the accusation and that's the reality.

So dude, but here's the problem. So here's what I'm— for me, for people who are listening to all this stuff, the deal, the problem is the internet can lie faster than you can respond.

Totally.

So then it's like, what do you do? What do you think?

Well,

what do you think?

Jesus makes it pretty clear that the motive of the question asker matters a lot in the book of Matthew. The scribes and the Pharisees get together and they come up with a way, they devise a plan to trick Jesus is what it says. And so they say, all right, we've got this situation about marriage and the guy dies and she marries another one. And no, no, no. All right, whose is she in the kingdom? And Jesus is like, well, let me ask you a question. John the Baptist, is he from God or not? And they're like, Don't hold on one second. They huddle up and they're like, man, you can't Jesus juke Jesus. He got us. So they come back and they're like, we don't know. He goes, then I'm not answering your question, bro. So, because what's actually— if somebody actually wanted to know the truth before they posted on the internet, they could just reach out. That's right. And say, hey, I got some questions. And by the way, any covenant member of 1122, that has any questions about anything can meet with a staff person or an elder anytime. Yeah.

And

we gladly just say, here, man, what do you want to know? What do you need to know? Whatever. Because what's actually happening is people just want you to fight them online because they're trying to gain popularity. Because they typically, they're either selling data, they're selling some kind of offshoot product that they want more attention towards.

Bro, let me just interject here. This is my pet peeve and it makes me laugh. So half of those articles are like, look at this megachurch that's all about the money. Please click this link to my monetized website.

So Paul talks about it in Titus 3:10. As for a person who stirs up division after warning him once, and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful, and be self-condemned. Or I look at Nehemiah. Nehemiah had a call of God on his life. Yes. I have a call of God on my life, which is to lead a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And Sanballat's trying to disrupt this call, and he's calling these meetings and calling these meetings, and he's got ill motives. And Nehemiah says, I'm doing a great work. I cannot come down. Right, man. What do you want me to not do in order to be a keyboard warrior, to just get in the comments and start fighting with people?

Yeah, dude.

So, yeah. And again, it would be different if somebody reached out and said, man, I got some questions, and the intent was clarity and clarification. That's right. No problem.

That's right.

Because what's happened in my own life is I heard something, And then I talk to somebody and I go, oh, I didn't know that. That makes a lot of sense. But if you are just assuming the worst and trying to play gotcha, you'll always have some angle that you can go after, bro.

And here's like, I'll tell you, I'd love to know what you think about this. Here's what I learned is you think, I got this from Larry Legend, Larry Osborne. You think by responding, you think you're putting water on a fire.

Yeah.

and it's putting water on a grease fire. So this has happened to me before. So here's what I don't think— because what I think happens is people in churches, they're like, why won't you respond?

Yeah. We demand a response.

Why won't you respond? First of all, I don't have to show up to every fight I'm invited to. You don't get to put things on my to-do list just because you're mad on the internet. This is not how it works. But the other thing is, bro, here's what happened to me when I was a kid trying to figure it out. The first time this ever happened to me, I was like, you know what? I should respond. And then what I learned is before I responded, 1% of my church had been exposed to a lie.

Correct.

And then I responded and 100% of my church went looking for the lie.

This is a great line. Somebody was sending mean emails to me about my preaching, about whatever I'm not doing right. And Pastor Britt grabbed it, my executive pastor who I love to death.

He's a good man.

And he sent back, And it said something like, of all the responsibilities that God has trusted you with, the teaching ministry of 1122 is not one of them.

Now, we're not talking about heresy and heterodoxy. No, no, no. You're just talking about preferences, that kind of thing.

Yeah. And the heretics you have pointed out, if nobody was listening to them, then there'd be no reason to point it out. Okay. And so we have a local church, we have a board of lay elders, and they're actually all old men that I am submitted to.

Same.

So in regards to whatever, whatever the purchase of the retreat center, whatever it is in my life, I have authority in my life that I am submitted to.

Yeah. Yep.

Yeah.

Well, it's just—

I actually, any negative things that I get, I just immediately forward it to the chairman of the board of elders.

Yeah. That's brilliant.

Here you go.

That's brilliant.

You have all the information.

Yeah.

So I'm not hiding anything. If you see truth in this, you let me know.

Yeah.

My favorite is my last one I got. This guy's like, you're an empty suit. I was like, I don't even wear suits.

Except on Easter.

On Easter only.

Except on Easter. All right, let me transition to a hard emotional gear shift. So I think both of us, interesting thing is 11:22 reached a lot of dudes. It's like both of us kind of grew up in an era where the church actually a lot of times skewed 70/30 female/male. And it's like 11:22 reaches and disciples a lot of dudes. Same with Lake Pointe, same with Live Free. So I'm going to show you, they're going to see it on the screen. Okay. So dude, here's what— I get this question a lot. Okay? So this right here, dadgummit, this right here is a graph that people— I'm going to point it out right here. So what it's showing is that in the last 10 years or so, you have this actually 20 years, you have this weird thing going on where men in general are skewing conservative and then women in general, obviously not all of them, are skewing radically progressive. So you're getting this increasing gender divide thing here. Now I'm talking to a pastor trying to pastor not just men, I'm trying to pastor everybody that walks in my door. Okay? Yep. So you got that.

So that's number one. So first of all, actually, do you have any thoughts on why that's happening? If you don't, we'll just move on to the actual question I was going to ask.

In regards to the women going liberal, I think that it's a bit of what you talked about. Satan can't create, but he will corrupt, commandeer. And so oftentimes he'll take a good thing that God put in there with this deep need to care for people.

Yes.

And then he'll begin to twist it to an unbiblical kind of messianic complex. Yeah. And that happens. I also think it's a reaction to the lack of good godly male leadership.

Yeah.

Jenny Allen was on Deep End and she was— Kyle Thompson was on there with me and he asked her a question and she said, I'm not making an excuse, but for one of the things is that In the church, men have not treated women like co-equals and partners for a long time. And a bit of it, maybe in an unholy way, they've kind of fought for their own. And so now you've got this overreaction. And again, she wasn't blaming anybody, but every man should take responsibility because where men lead and love well, everybody flourishes.

That's right, man. That's right.

And so before I go after the women, then all of us got to hold up the mirror to our own self.

That's right.

And say, what kind of environment have I created? God doesn't allow Adam to have a wife until he gets his house in order. He names all the animals and then he gets a wife,

bro.

And so the responsibility of the house being in order is us.

Okay, so here's the question. This is a very common Live Free YouTube comment.

Okay.

You got a young single guy who's like, hey man, especially if they're in a college town. So college town, probably a little more progressive on campus, probably a lot less Christian on campus. They're watching this little thing happen. I'll give you one more, Grant. This'll blow your mind, dude. So this was CNN. I'm going to put it up here for them, but this is us. So this was CNN and they did this deal where it was Gen Z men and women and they ranked the things that people counted as success in life, what they were most passionate about. And so, bro, it's like young conservative men, the most important thing in life, they ranked it number 1. Now this is CNN. It's not like Newsmax. It's like CNN. Young conservative men, most important thing in life for them, I want to have kids and a family. And then dude, it grabbed young progressive women, single progressive women, and they ranked it having children literally last. Literally last. Number 12 out of 12 of most important things in their whole life. Yeah. So here's the question. that I get a lot on podcast comments is, hey man, I'm a young single guy.

I believe the Bible, love the Bible, love Jesus. I really want to have a family and a good wife. We talked about this earlier. But he is like, where do I find one?

1122.

Boom. We're done here.

They're there. That's where they all are.

For real. Tease it out. Click on it. You're a young single guy. You don't live in Jacksonville.

You live in Jacksonville.

That's the answer. You live in Dallas. Come on over.

But even in Jacksonville, dude, at our church, here's the thing. I see all the statistics and the diagrams. But when I look at the actual humans, it's like a dozen to one godly women looking for a godly man in our church.

Same. Same.

I've got some dear friends of mine, one of them sitting right there, and we have this conversation at our house. How in the world is there not a line out the door of godly men chasing this girl down, bro? She's the best.

Yes.

The literal best. I don't understand. So I think these things have killed us.

Yeah.

Because the follow-up question ought to be, because your desire is to have a family and have kids, question 2, so what are you doing about it? Brother, shoot your shot, man. Just ask somebody on a date, like a real date.

Tell 'em how to do it.

You go up to 'em, you say, hi, my name is, and you hold up your Bible. I believe this. You hold up your wallet. I'm working on this. Can I take you to dinner at, and I will pick you up at, name a time and both of those things. Then you take a shower, you put some nicer clothes on, like nothing with a team logo, something with a button, maybe a sleeve, and you drive in your car and you pick her up and you open the door and you go to a place and you tell her, get whatever you want. And then you pay for it. And if you enjoyed that, then you ask her again. And if she enjoyed it, she'll say yes. And if you ask her and she says no, suck it up, buttercup.

That's right.

Just shoot your shot, man.

That's right, dude.

Yep. Just swing for the fences and go for

it. So if you're listening, it's like, well, I just want to give, let's rapid fire some practical tips.

All right?

Yeah. So number one, it's the same at Lake Pointe. I'll see stats like that and I'm like, well, maybe it's like that out there. Ain't like that in here.

Correct.

In my lobby, I'm praying for young, single, Bible-believing women—

All the time.

To find good dudes. Now, honestly, I am starting to see it get fixed at Lake Point because we're reaching tons of young guys.

So

it's starting to do this.

We did a whole— I mean, we spent our whole year last year calling men to stand firm and act like men. And a part of it was quit playing the role of the boy and be the man and stand up, act like a man by getting on your knee. and inviting her to join you in this great adventure. And there's a bunch of people that got engaged. So way to go, boys.

Amen, bro. Okay, so here's my— I'm going to give 5. And then while I'm talking, you can be thinking if you got anything else. All right, so where can a young Bible-believing guy find a good wife? Number 1, you attract what you become. It's the thing we say all the time. Become the type of person you're looking for is looking for. Hey man, if you get a vision for the type of young woman you want to attract, Then the next question you need to ask yourself is, would that girl like me? And if you're all weed, porn, and jobless, she ain't gonna like you. So I was like, hey man, you gotta become the type of person that she's gonna be into. Any further comments or I get it?

I get it. The bar of what it means to be the elite alpha male now is so low.

So low.

That if you could just get outta bed before 10, not wear pajamas in public. Yeah. And have some— and love Jesus and have some kind of direction in your life, bro, you were like a blue chip, 5-star.

If you got a job, that's even better.

Oh my God.

Even better. Yeah.

Yeah. So, all

right, so that's number one. Number 2, I'm not joking, dude. I don't think a lot of you guys that are listening believe us. Our churches are— there are hundreds, if that, probably actually thousands of young single Bible-believing women who will make Unbelievable wives.

Amen.

It's like, I like to fish. Y'all know you like to fish too. It's like, hey man, it's like you got to fish in the right pond. If I go to a salmon stream, I'm not going to catch a bass.

Correct.

So find the right pond. Guess what's the right pond? A Bible-believing church who actually preaches the Bible.

Correct. And don't you be showing up to my church just trying to like, it's a dating site. You come and submit and you serve. And while you're pursuing Jesus, you got your eyes fixed on him, running the race that he has marked out for you. Then every once in a while you look left and you look right and you see if somebody else is running not just your same race, but at the same pace. And you ask her on a date.

Bingo.

That's it, man.

Bingo. All right.

I mean, the Bible says he who finds a wife finds what is good.

Finds.

Not waits for one to be delivered from heaven. Chandler used to say that. He's like, you don't just wait for God to bring you lunch, you go get it. And so we just need boys to just put a little steel in their spine and just shoot your shot.

Go find 'em.

Yeah. All

right. Once you get to the Bible— he already hit the— he got to the 3rd one first. Once you get to the Bible preaching church, you have to actually be present where the young women are. And what I'm saying is coming in 15 minutes late to the service and leaving 5 minutes before it's over is not enough.

Correct.

You need to actually become a disciple that's actually part of the church. You need to serve. You need to be in a life group. This is a pro tip at Lake Point. I'm like, if you wanted to serve somewhere where young godly women are, you want to be in students, kids, young adults, or a greeter.

Amen.

Anything else?

No, that's a good call.

That's it. But you got to serve. You can't just show up and be like, nobody, I didn't find anyone. Well, you didn't do anything. You didn't do anything.

Yeah. And make sure you're worth finding.

Yep. Number 4 for me, this is how I got married. Blind date.

Amen.

I'll say this, dude, the number of young guys at Lake Point, we do the Rooted thing, the discipleship. By the way, if you've never done Rooted, you're crazy. Everyone needs to do it at least once in their life. Rooted at Lake Point, we're like you. We don't stick a bunch of 25-year-olds in the same room and be like, disciple each other.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We try to find somebody whose age starts with a 5, 6, or a 7. To lead those disciple groups, discipleship groups for the 20s and the 30s. So dude, here's what I tell people. This is how me and Janet got married. If you're single being led in a group by a godly couple that's married, literally just tell them and literally tell them, if you come across a godly woman you think would be good for me, would you please, please put a bug in? That's how me and Janet got married. Anything else? Good.

That's a great idea.

All right.

Yeah. about to be 17-year-old daughter, the idea of arranged marriages makes a lot more sense to me today.

Huge fan. Big fan. And then last one, I will say this because there's 2 guys I've discipled from a distance that after a long time I finally was like, hey man, you need to pray and ask the Holy Spirit if this is what you should do and do whatever he tells you. And if he tells you something different than me, ignore me and listen to him. If you're in an area where honestly geographically, socially, culturally, Honestly, it really is. It's legitimately going to be hard to find even one. You are not wrong to consider moving to an area where you can, like Pastor Joby said, find a good wife. That is not wrong for you to consider. Agree, disagree, additional comments. You're not going to hurt my feelings.

If Gretchen Martin currently lived in Chernobyl, Quit my job, sell everything, and if I had to live in a tent with that girl, I would do whatever it took.

That's right.

So it'll be worth it. It'll be worth

it.

Amen. And be a man worth following. Listen, Pastor Britt and I talked about this on Deepened. Reagan is 17. So when it gets to the point where some young man is truly courting her for marriage, I'm gonna look at 2 things, 3 things in his life. I'm gonna look at his phone, I'm gonna look at his calendar, and I'm gonna look at his checking account. Because if he's a pervert, it'll be on his phone. And my girl ain't marrying a pervert. And if he cannot manage his own life through his calendar as a single man, there's no way he can lead a home. No way. And if he doesn't bring his first and best to the Lord, he's a thief. My daughter ain't marrying a thief.

Bro, that's fire.

So be the kind of man that— because one of the questions I'll ask these guys, I was like, hold on a second, if you were God, would you let you date one of his daughters right now? I mean, you live at your home there, bro. I mean, I get it, you're, you're, you know, you're killing whatever video game you're playing. That's great. But— and I know you're waiting for that next YouTube, you know, trick shot to go viral. Good luck with that. But if you're not on the journey to be able to provide and protect and be prophet, priest, and servant king, then you haven't done your part. And if you'll do those things, they will make it— the girls will become easy to find.

That's right, dude. Bro. And what's so— it's like a lot of times people are doing Bible verses and they don't even know they're doing Bible verses. Literally what Pastor Joby just said is literally a Bible verse. That's if you notice in Genesis, what you have is God puts Adam in the garden to work it and to keep it. And then Genesis, I think, is it 2:24? A man shall leave his father. I think it's 2:24. A man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife. The 2 shall become one, and then they shall become one flesh. So bro, here's literally the biblical pattern.

Yep.

The first thing Adam gets is a job, and then he leaves. So now he moved outta mom and dad's house and he was self-supporting. Leave. Then he cleaves. That's the KJV. So then he got married and then the 2 become one flesh. That's the lay with each other part.

Yep.

So that's the order.

And here's— and speaking of order, and it says, leave, cleave, and they were naked and unashamed. That's right. But what happens in our culture is people get naked, then they get married, and they wonder why they bring all this shame into their marriage. You carried some demons up into your bedroom. And so listen, if that's you, 'cause at Lake Pointe and 1122, it happens a lot, right? Couples, they're dating in college or whatever, and they're sleeping together. And then they end up at our church married and come to know Jesus, and they wonder why their sex life was amazing when they were dating and now it's stale. 'Cause you carried some demons up into your marriage.

Bro.

So husbands, this is your responsibility. You take your wife by the hand, you go get on your knees. First of all, you repent 'cause the Bible says love is patient. And you say, I am so sorry I didn't love you 'cause I was impatient. I took something that wasn't mine. Will you forgive me? And then you go before the Lord. And the good news is that he is faithful and just to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. And you need to cast that demonic shadow out of your marriage because there is freedom and wholeness and joy that God wants you to experience in that area of your life.

Right, man.

Yeah, it's a big deal,

dude. So this is not in my notes, but I just want to ask you. So you see the same thing, 11:22, Who we're really reaching right now is like that guy that's like 24 to 30, you know, to actually up to my age, 40-ish.

Mm-hmm.

And it's that guy that's like, man, you know, he's excited when hunting season starts and he likes NASCAR and football and, you know, and he likes it when I use a, a bass fishing illustration. And he was kind of that guy that until he got to Lake Point, He called himself a Christian because when he took the census in high school, he is like, well, I'm not an atheist. I'm not a Muslim. I guess I'm a Christian.

Yep.

And then he comes to Lake Point and he actually meets Jesus. I love watching it, dude, is he just wrecks their lives. But then somewhere along the way he got married. He did it wrong. So he gets into— so here's a— I'm going to throw a question at you. I get a lot at Lake Point. He did it wrong. So he gets into his marriage, he led badly going into the marriage. So honestly, because he led badly, she didn't respond goodly.

And

that's not her fault. That was his fault for leading badly. So then he's like, man, now I'm trying to lead my family, but dude, I set it all up wrong. Honestly, I'm trying to lead. Why would she trust me? How do I even do— so what would you say to the guy that's like, man, I want to lead my family and be the godly leader of my family.

That's good.

But I was such a jacked up guy on the way in, She very understandably is like, I don't know about you having the steering wheel.

So I think I know what you mean when you use the word lead, but I think when your average guy that's been going to church for a few years hears us say lead, he's not thinking what we mean when we say lead.

This is good. This is good right here.

Because Ephesians 5, right after it says, wives, submit to your own husbands. And again, there's a lot there. I know the word submit's not popular, but neither is staying married. So you might want to try it. And women don't submit to men.

Very important.

You're right. Wives, submit to your own husband as unto the Lord. That verse comes right after the verse says, submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Then it gets to the men and it doesn't say, so husbands, lead your wives. It says, love your wives as Christ loved the church. So when Josh says lead, what he means is like John 13, every single day you get up, dress yourself as a servant, and wash your disciples' feet. If that's what you mean by lead, It's not like I'm the boss and I'm the man. A great way to— 1 Corinthians 13, I mean 16:13-14, the passage on act like men. We love it. The men love it. Watch out, stand firm. That means fight, act like men, be strong, but you better keep reading.

That's right, bro.

Verse 14 says, look, let everything you do be done in love. So if you want to know what that means, go to 1 Corinthians 13. And what's good about this is Paul Paul doesn't tell a story. He's not like, love is like a butterfly. And no, it just says, love is, then it's going to say a word. Love is patient. Love is kind. Love is not arrogant. Love is not rude. Love is not self-seeking. Love keeps no record of wrong. This is what we're supposed to do. Yeah. Then in that context, this hit me when I was writing the book. I'd never noticed this before. In that context, Paul says, When I was a child, I acted like a child, but when I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. So you're impatient, rude, self-seeking, beating your chest, demanding your own way.

Childish.

You think you're being tough? Paul says you're being a toddler.

That's right. That'll preach.

So serve your wife, love your wife. The places that you need to start leading, Be the lead repenter. Be the lead apologizer. That's it. Just own it all. I'm so sorry. There it is. You're right. And then just serve her and love her. And then quite honestly, what ought to happen is, this is true of either spouse, the more you know and love Jesus, the more your spouse should benefit. And now you're not into a theological argument. She's just like, yeah. Whatever that thing has happened to you at church and that group you go to, my whole life is better.

Keep doing that.

Maybe I'll come with you.

That's right. That's 1 Peter 3.

Yeah, no doubt.

That's 1 Peter 3.

Yep.

Dude, I'll add. So first of all, I think what a lot of guys don't understand, if you're in that situation, what you either purposefully or inadvertently did is honestly you shattered your wife's trust. That's what you accidentally— so that's what you're up against. You're not up against, not necessarily, some of you are, but you're not necessarily up against, she won't submit. What you're up against is you broke her trust. And man, what I always tell guys is, man, if you break your wife's trust in marriage, she's got a job and you got a job. Her job is to tell you what targets you need to hit to regain the trust, and your job is to hit the targets.

That's good.

So you need to, at some point, you need to in humility do exactly what Joby just said. You go and with probably some sweat in your eyes, you realize what you did and you apologize. And then you say, I'm so sorry. You ask her if there's any area in which, man, have I lost your trust? You ask her. And then what you do is you ask her the question, tell me exactly what I need to do to regain your trust. You listen to the words that come out of the mouth and you remember exactly what she said. And then your job is to hit those targets.

Amen.

So I'll just, this is a little, you get what you pay for and this is free. So lower your expectations. But at that point, he's got a job and she's got a job. Your job is to hit her targets. Her job is to let you hit the targets and slowly give you back the trust that you lost. But you got to do your job and you can't micromanage her job.

And to the ladies that are listening, We're not nearly as complex as you think we are. Men are like puppies. They repeat what is rewarded. So when he gets it right, if you can respond, Hercules, I'm just telling you, he'll be like, okay, that was good. That's how you taught your puppy to not pee on your carpet. You gave him a treat when he did it outside, right? So yeah, man, all very true. One other thing I would say, because you mentioned a guy going, she won't submit. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That verse starts with wives. If you're quoting it, it's over, bro.

Yeah,

it's over. You should go ahead and skip down to the husband one and just do everything it says and trust the Lord with the verses that he wrote for her.

There you go.

Yeah.

Yeah. All right, let me, uh, let's close this out with some rapid fire.

Let's go.

All right, we're gonna rap— we're gonna rapid fire close this out. Well, here's what we're gonna do. We're going to rap. Both of us are in church, 30, 35,000. We're going to rapid-fire objections to megachurches.

Yeah. Who? Don't you hate those?

What?

Yeah. Boo.

All right, so here's what I'm going to do. I'm actually, we're going to show it up here. So this went viral. You probably don't know this because you're not playing around on Instagram. You're actually doing things.

I don't do anything right now.

All right, this went viral last week. All right, so we're going to show it up here. So here it was, a little carousel post, went crazy viral. So here's what it says. I'm just going to read it and you can respond. That man is probably not your pastor if he doesn't know your name. Toby Martin, if he doesn't know your name, not your pastor. If you can't even shake his hand, not your pastor. If he doesn't walk with you, talk with you, pray for you, or know the least bit about you, not your pastor. We could keep going, but Toby Martin—

Let me just ask this. So in the Greek, Pastor and shepherd are the same word, right?

Correct.

And Jesus says he was— he is the Good Shepherd.

Yes.

And David says in Psalm 23, the Lord is my shepherd.

Yes.

So, so have you ever shaken Jesus's hand?

Whoopsie daisy, bro.

I saw one says, you ever seen him on eye level? Uh-huh. All right, so they're just— they're conflating things is what they're conflating. So how many names do you think you could remember? Minus your— leave out your family.

I don't know, dude. 500, 1,000. I don't

know. You think you can get to 500?

I think there's probably 500 people on planet Earth whose names I know.

Okay.

But hey, listen, that's on a good day, and that's across my whole life.

Well, you got to unlearn whatever. So what this person is saying is once you get over that number, you can't be the pastor of those people anymore. I mean, it's just, there's not— okay, just show me the text.

Yeah.

Just show me the text.

Bro, that's my thing.

Like, what, what it's like, it's easy for somebody to criticize. Can you imagine if we were just criticizing small churches?

Yeah.

You know why you don't hear that? Because I'm not critical of small churches.

That's right.

Praise God for small churches. Just be faithful, man.

Amen. Amen.

So that guy can feel that way, and if he doesn't like it, he can shoot me an email at jimmycragscorning@gmail.com. Now I will say that I, although I don't personally shepherd all the people.

Yeah, this is important.

But all the people need to be shepherded.

Amen.

So we have about 70 pastors right now and 420 staff members and an army. We have, I want to say it's 2,400 people that went through a 6-week training to be on the care team. We love, we care, we accomplish the roles of the shepherd. We're not caught up in the title of who gets the badge.

Yes. Right.

And so the sheep need to be loved and cared for in those things.

Yeah.

Sounds like this guy has to have a title.

Yeah. So I think that's really important. Hey man, does every single pastor need to know every single person's name? Hey, that's dumb because we literally, unless the Apostle Peter memorized 5,000 names in the first 4 chapters of the book of Acts, we literally got a Bible verse that says the opposite of this.

Correct.

But so does every single pastor need to know every single person's name? No. But at Lake Pointe, you can be known by a pastor.

Amen.

Absolutely. Yes.

I think part of the myth is if you got a big church and then people, they'll be like, well, it's all about you.

Yeah.

Well, actually, I have diversified responsibility maybe more than any. It doesn't have to all go through me. I am not the single point of contact on things. I'm actually, the reason I do that is because we're like one body with many parts. And I might be okay at the talking part, and I'm not as good at this other part. So we've got some other people that could serve you better in that area, and maybe I can serve you better in the teaching of the Bible kind of area.

Yeah. All right.

So it's not about me.

Yep. But Joby.

Yes.

Your church is too big. You should just be planting churches.

We are.

Okay. Talk about it.

Well, please don't fall into the tyranny of the or.

That's it, bro.

God always works in the genius of the end. Yeah, because guess who all the church plants come to? The big churches. But that's where you fund us. Yeah, it's just true. We have planted and partnered to plant— by the end of '28, we will have planted 1,000 churches around the world. There are more people that attend the churches that we have planted today than how many people attend 11:20.

My gosh.

So it's not either or. Who said either or?

That's right.

We plant staff people, we partner with people all over the world, Africa and Brazil and Scotland, all over the place. So yeah, we do that.

Yeah, it's the same at Lake Pointe. This is, well, I'll get this every now and then. Most people are smart enough to realize that's a dumb question, but every now and then I'll get this.

There are no dumb questions. There are lots of dumb people.

All right. But it's like at Lake Pointe, we started Strategic Launch Network. It's like we have literally personally funded, coached, and planted, it'll be over 100 churches in the hardest to reach urban centers in North America by the end of this year. I think what honestly, what people who don't do what we do don't understand is, hey man, just because we plant a church doesn't mean that A, everybody from our church is voluntarily going to choose to go do that.

Right.

And B, hey, newsflash, when we plant a church, thousands of people don't magically stop trying to come to my church.

Yeah. Well, what actually happens is they get a whiff of the Great Commission and they're like, I want to be a part of a church that is a conduit of the grace of God, not a cul-de-sac of it. And it's Jesus's Great Commission. And I'm just telling you, when you are about his mission, He will fully fuel and fund his mission. And so he just keeps bringing more people and more people and more people.

That's right.

And we keep sending more people and more people and more people.

Y'all are the best at it. But Joby, all the megachurches, they're just a mile wide and an inch deep. Joby, you don't disciple anybody.

Man, I would love to introduce you to our 1,000 or so disciple group leaders and let you tell them that to their face.

Let me brag. Before you finish talking, let me brag. And I'm wearing the Built for More hat right now. Oh yeah. So we recorded Built for More. By the way, the conversation we had on that pod is one of the best conversations I've ever had on any podcast. We went some places I've never gone before. If you're listening to this, when they release that episode of Built for More with me, you, and Denny, you're crazy if you don't listen to that thing.

And before we start, because you listen to Built for More all the time, just like I listen to Livery all the time, I told you when you meet Denny, what you're going to see is just a product of the discipleship processes of 11:22.

Bro. And he's a guy that's just like, he's like a drink a beer, watch a game guy, lost guy before stumbles into 11:22. And now, dude, here's— I seriously, I was sitting there stunned at what a great disciple that guy is.

Amen.

And guess where that happened? Omega Church.

Amen.

Omega Church.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anybody that ever says that, I just know they've never actually attended or watched.

Yeah.

My sermon. Because I mean, we just are going verse by verse through Matthew.

Yeah.

What else do you want me to do?

Yeah.

And honestly, I don't care what you want me to do. I'm not doing what you want me to do because I'm not trying to live my life for the approval of man, but for the approval of Christ. Because if I was trying to do what you want me to do, then I cannot be a servant of Christ.

Galatians 1:10.

Thank you.

Yeah. Well, but Joby, all All the megachurches, they're just big personality cults, Joby. That's all they are. It's big personality cults.

Man, like I said, we know 'em all. And are there some bad actors and some guys that have been terrible stewards of platforms that God has given 'em? Man, sadly, the list is long.

Yes.

What you don't know is the list is also long of churches that you've never heard of because they just don't make the news. And like you've said a million times before, planes that land safely, they don't make the news.

Right.

Um, man, I don't know what to tell you, dude. I am the person God created me to be, and I wrestle through the parable of the talents all the time. And I don't know if I'm a 2-talent guy or a 5-talent guy, but I refuse to be a 1-talent guy. Amen. And the whole point of that— shout out Dr. Piper— is don't waste your one and only life. I got one and only life. What do you want me to do? Preach less or tone it down or cap it? The number of people that want to hear the gospel, say it out loud. Give me the alternative. I'd be happy to hear it.

So I'm curious, when somebody says, hey man, this church, it's getting too big, what do you say?

Who do you want me to uninvite? Because I got a list and right now you're on the top of it.

That's that thing.

So look through the Gospels. This would be a good magic marker study of the Gospels. Look at every time the disciples turned inward on themselves, they get in trouble. They do. They're like, kids, get out of here. Get out of here. Well, he's too busy for you. He's like, what are you, fool? Unless you change and become like them, you'll never inherit the kingdom of God. Hey, can my 2 sons sit at your right and left? He's like, you don't even know what you're asking for. for. Okay? It never goes good when they're trying to cap the room. Look at the times where they turn outward. They get a high five from Jesus. Feeding of the 5,000. Okay? So what kind of disciple do you want to be? Because our vision statement at 1122 is we're a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus. My experience and my understanding of the scriptures is the number one catalyst to help you deepen your walk with Jesus is to help other people discover theirs.

Bro.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So if it's all just about me and mine, you have lost the plot.

That's right, man. Yeah, dude, whenever somebody says that, so number one, it's the same thing. What do you want me to do? What are you asking me to do? Are you asking me to tell all these lost people, hey, y'all go home. It's too big now. But the other thing is I'm like, nobody ever drives past a hospital and is like, man, that hospital is just getting too big. They're just healing too many sick people.

Yeah. Right. What are you wanting?

What are you wanting here?

What would be better if somebody could just say, hey, God bless that ministry. And my own preference based on my own experience is that's not the kind of church I'm looking to be connected in. This is the kind of church I'm looking to be.

Nothing wrong with that.

Praise God for it.

Nothing wrong with that at all.

I know.

Yes. Yeah. The other one that's like, well, I'm riffing on it is you probably get the same thing and I might be a little I might be a little overaggressive, and so don't put this on Joby, but sometimes people want to— I'll celebrate. After baptizing 182 people, I'm like, absolutely, I'm sharing that. I want every person in the church to know the grace that we have to live in the window of harvest that we get to see. Amen. That, by the way, parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents in that region prayed for for decades, and we are reaping their harvest. Yeah, I want everybody to know about that. But what people do after that is they'll be like, man, you're just all about the numbers. You're all about the numbers. And number one, I'm like, well, there's literally a book of the Bible called Numbers. So let's start there. Yeah.

How many got baptized on Pentecost?

3,000.

How do you know that?

Because they wrote the number down. Acts chapter 5, or by Acts chapter 5, there's 5,000.

Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And we try to also tell as many individual stories as we can. We celebrate every single one of these baptisms. baptisms, man.

I mean, there's a story, there's a life there.

There's actually a book with these names written in it. That's what we're celebrating.

Amen.

That's what we're celebrating.

That's right. Lamb's Book of Life.

That's it.

That's it, man. And by the way, what you said this earlier, I think this is really important, is that nobody's moralizing a church size because what you do, I have seen it. I have seen guys who pastor churches more like ours, And they actually do sometimes talk like small churches are bad and evil, and the only reason they're small is because they're bad and evil.

Now, if nobody's gotten saved, it's a—

That's a problem.

The gathering of 125 disciples and y'all haven't made one.

That's a problem.

But I mean, that's the thing, man. You're outside of— here's the thing. I shared it on Built for More. I'll just go real quick. Gretchen's grandfather, Lloyd White, pastored a church called Lone Star. It might have 125 people in it. Mm-hmm. But you know who one of the disciples they made is? Her name was Gretchen Nicely. I met her in 2000. It became Gretchen Martin. And in 2003, when I was about to leave the ministry, that disciple of Lone Star talked me into giving it one more chance. Also, when Pastor Jerry said, you should plant a church, I was getting calls from a bunch of big, very well-established churches to just come be on the teaching team. I went back to her again. I was like, it would be way safer. And she was like, I feel like God called us to make disciples in Jacksonville. And I was like, I just need you to know what you're risking. If this doesn't go good, I don't know what we're doing. And she quotes to me Ruth. She just said, baby, I'm with you. Your God's my God, your people my people. Where you die, I'll die.

Wow. Yeah. And so she put courage in me. And then 1122 is doing what it's doing. We've had over 5,000 people proclaim that Jesus is their Lord for the first time this year. And we baptized over 5,000 people. Okay, so all of the fruit of 1122 hangs on the tree of Lone Star Church in Clifton Forge, Virginia. And when Lloyd White got to heaven and when I get to heaven, God's gonna say, well done, boys. Amen. Well done. Amen.

Our mutual mentor, Bishop Steve Stroop, he's got this fire line. He says, hey man, big isn't bad and small's not bad. Bad is bad.

He's so quick.

He said, bad is bad. There's big good churches and big bad churches, and there's small good churches and small bad churches. Why? Big's not bad. Small's not bad. Bad is bad.

Here's the thing I don't like about the word megachurch. One, it's a comparative term, and I don't think we should be comparing churches to one another. Amen. Would you compare your kids? You know what I mean?

Not at

all. This is my mega kid. This is my mini kid. No, man. It's just God designed that kid that way and that kid that way. So, I mean, let's talk numbers. In Jacksonville, let's see, on a good weekend right now, 35,000 people in the rooms. That doesn't count online and all that kind of stuff. Okay, 30,000 people. Jacksonville has— greater Jacksonville has about 2 million people in it. 2 million people. Bro, bro. And then we just looked at the 2020 census, and the most charitable look at it is about 25% of Jacksonville checks the box Christian. So let's just give it to 'em and say every single one of them have actually repented of their sin and surrendered to Christ. The most charitable, about 25%. Yeah. So we have— we only have 30,000 at 1122. We're not a— our city is mega lost, bro. That's the mega. And again, it's not up to just 1122. Let me name some churches, man. You want to hear the gospel? Go to Celebration Church with Pastor Tim. Come on. Go to Chetts Creek. They just got a brand new pastor. Go to Beach Church because Pastor Jerry's still preaching there.

I mean, bro, there's churches all over the place and we're not in competition with— we have an enemy. He's the devil of hell that wants to steal, kill, and destroy. So again, I mean, the mega thing, what are you talking about mega, bro?

Compared to what?

Compared to the lost people, we're mini church. We're barely— I mean, it ain't Ephesus.

That's right.

They're not shutting down sinful industries because of the influence of the believers in town.

That's right.

Everybody's still drunk at the Jags games.

That's right.

We got a lot of work to do.

Dude, I'll say that to Lake Point a lot is, hey man, the only reason anybody ever thinks we're a big church is because they compare us to other churches. We don't compare ourselves to other churches. We compare ourselves to the size of the mission God has given us. What's that? To reach all people. So we're not a big church. We are a really small church with a really big vision.

There's 2.5 billion people on the planet right now that don't even know the name of Jesus.

That's right. That's right.

I'm not just talking about the lost people that are still parked in their driveway on Sunday morning in Jacksonville and in Dallas.

That's right.

They at least have access to the gospel. There's 2.5 billion, with a B, people that have no access to the gospel. It's about megachurch.

What are you talking about?

That's pitiful.

All right, let me finish with 2 things. 2 final objections here. This one's fun because the weird thing about our lives is we know these guys.

Yeah.

So this is why, Joby, all these megachurch pastors, they're just greedy, abusive hypocrites behind the scenes. All of them.

Yeah. You've never met one of them.

Or if you met one, it was one of the rare bad apples.

Can you go find Some bad ones, man. There's no doubt. There's no doubt about it. And man, it puts a blight on the name of the bride.

And I fear for that man when he stands before the Lord. I fear for that man. Yeah.

Here's the thing too that people just don't know. I mean, did you set out for this?

No, dude. I was, we talked about it. I started pastoring a, I grew my dad's church plant at first from 120 to about 76.

Let's go.

And that was the first year or so. And honestly, man, I remember having a moment where I was like, Lord, if I am here to faithfully pastor these 76, to reach as many as 76 can, I'm in.

Yeah.

No, I didn't. In my wildest dreams.

I remember when we hired Pastor Britt, we were running about 4,000 people and we're talking about all kind of stuff, multi-site and all that, which I— dude, if you cut me, I believe evangelism. I mean, I just want to see people come to Christ.

On the— this is a side note— on APEST, apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers, Ephesians, Are you primarily evangelist? Which one is that your strongest foot there? Apostles, prophets, evangelist, shepherd, teacher?

Yeah, I'm strongest evangelist with some serious apostle in there.

Definitely. I agree. Yeah.

Which in regards to that, people will always put up with the sin of the teacher and the shepherd, and they'll crucify the sin of the prophet and the evangelist and the apostle.

Bro, that's a bar because the shepherd and the teacher, they sin gently.

That's it, dude. You could completely cut the Great Commission out of your Bible and keep the people in front of you comfortable and nobody's going to complain. Still good wedding and funeral. Keep the shawlman short enough so you can get to lunch on time. No problem. Now, Jesus is going to remove his lampstand because that's not a church, but you'll be fine. You'll be fine. It's that thing that you say, the unwritten rule.

The unspoken rule with the world has with pastors, you take it easy on us, we'll take it easy on you. And the second a pastor breaks that rule, all hell will break loose on your life. But that's the moment that all of heaven starts to break loose in your church.

Amen. Yeah, man, this wasn't my idea to begin with.

Yeah.

Coach Lee made me do it. Then Pastor Jerry made me do it. And ultimately the Lord commanded me to do it. And then I would've been totally fine being the youth pastor at Beach Church for the rest of my life. I was living the dream, just making disciples of who the Lord put right in front of me. And then he spoke to me through a number of people and through his word. And so we started 11:22. So when I brought Britt in, Pastor Britt, I think we were about 4,000. And I pulled him aside and I was like, okay, I think we're going to continue to grow because new people are the best evangelists. Nobody's told them you're not supposed to talk about Jesus at work yet. So they're going to tell everybody. And I think God's on the move here in that way. But listen, if the rest of our lives we get to care for and disciple 4,000 people, what a life well lived. That's right. Or if that number is 100 or 150 or whatever, it doesn't matter because it's not a number. It is a It's actually a family. You see, the church is not like an event you attend or an organization that you're a part of.

It's a family you belong to.

That's right.

And Jesus is like, there's still some more lost kids out there that belong to me.

That's right.

And I'm asking you to let me partner with you to go get 'em.

Get 'em. Go get 'em.

And then not convert 'em, disciple 'em.

That's right.

Because the moment you get rescued, you become a part of the rescue team. Amen.

Dude, the weird— let's say one thing here and then I want to finish on our last question here. The hardest thing when somebody says stuff like that or people imply stuff like that is the weird thing about our lives is we know all those guys.

I know.

And we know what they're like behind the scenes. And it's like, bro, there's stories we're not even allowed to tell about sacrifices their families have made.

In generosity.

Oh, bro. The generosity story. But I'm going to give a couple examples without— actually, I'm going to use a couple names that I know I'm allowed to, and I'll give some examples that I'm not allowed. So I'm going to do Philip Anthony Mitchell. So dude, that guy, it's the dumbest thing. I see some of the things people say about that guy online. I'm like, you idiot. Literally, I have a righteous anger. What an idiot.

Yeah. They don't know it.

Dude, that's the most— honestly, he's probably the most well-known pastor in America right now. Correct. He comes, hangs out on the Live Free episode. That dude, I'll get my eyes sweat thinking about it because he felt like a big brother in the faith to me.

Mm-hmm.

And he prayed for— that guy has texted me almost every day since just to tell me that he prayed for me and what he prayed for me. So I'm going to text him and ask him if I need to edit this out, I will. I'm going to give an example. I wake up and that guy texts me in the middle of the night, which means he was up praying for me in the middle of the night. I'm just a young pastor that he wanted to pray for. Josh, this morning I saw your face in my time of prayer. I saw the tears in your eyes when we sat across from each other, and I was deeply moved by the Spirit to earnestly intercede for you. I pray for you. I pray that you would continue to be bold, a bold voice for truth, no matter the cost. I pray that you would see your highest reward as the crown you lay down at the feet of Jesus. I pray that you would see the fleeting nature of this life and all that will be dissolved, including the words of the da da da da. I pray that God would continue to burn your heart with a holy fire to warn, to proclaim, to awaken, and to stand for Christ in this perverted and crooked generation as time is running out.

Bro, he just took time just to encourage a young, younger pastor. And bro, here's what can bother me. Nobody tells that story. That doesn't go viral.

So When I listened to you and him, I was up here, headphones in, filling up feeders with corn, doing chores. It's been an intense season of attack. And I sent you what I sent you, and both you and him— Mm-hmm. In kind of a Spurgeon-esque, not like thumbs up emoji, praise hands, praise hands, fire, fire. Not that. Like some sentences that take a minute to write. Mm-hmm. One of the neatest things about getting to sit in the seat that I get to sit in is a bunch of my heroes have become my friends. And I'm telling you, man, Matt Chandler, he's a better dude than he's a preacher. He might be the greatest preacher of our generation. He's a better man. You know, the other thing, can you ever remember, like, when we all get together, nobody's been like, so what you running? That's not—

Literally nobody.

We don't talk about that.

Literally nobody. How's your daughter? That's the kind of question. That's it, dude.

That's it. What's God been teaching you? Stuff like that. So

it's like you got the stuff like Phillip, and here's names and no names. It's like one of the pastors of the largest churches that has ever existed. He's a guy that I know. He and his wife have every year worked up so that they, first of all, well, I won't say that. They tithe 60% of their income. Nobody's ever going to know that. One of the pastors of the largest churches that's ever existed in America. He got to the spot where he wrote a bestseller, one of the bestselling books in all of human history.

Mm-hmm.

paid the church back every dollar they'd ever salaried him and then decided to reverse tithe. I know another guy who his family just decided early on that they wanted to fund, personally fund 100 adoptions in their life. By the way, that ain't cheap. Let me tell you that. I've done that a couple times. Yeah. And they set aside a massive part of their income. I know, I'll just shout him out, man. There's a guy named Larry Stockstill is a legendary charismatic pastor, huge church down in Louisiana. And this number of stories I'll hear about, you know what happens if you walk into the auditorium at 5:00 AM on a Sunday? There's Pastor Larry and he spends 3 hours in prayer before he preaches. We got a guy on our team, Mike Bro, a total legend. Yeah. Complete legend. Pastored Southland in Lexington. Then he was over at Willow for a minute. That's a different podcast. And dude, you know how that guy does? Mike Bro literally could have pastored any church in America that he wanted to. But back then, you know what he did? He moved out to California to plant a church, help his daughter plant a church where there wasn't one.

He spends his free time now mowing the lawns for widows in his neighborhood. And every Thursday morning, there's about 15 addicts that have no idea who Mike Breaux was, that he was one of the most famous pastors in America. And he leads a little Bible study at Starbucks for recovering addicts. And listen, here's what I say is that none of those stories ever go viral. That's who those guys are. And I'll say this, and almost every small church pastor in a little country town where he's got 280 or he's got just 50 or 80 people showing up, he's doing that stuff too.

No doubt.

And so it all goes back to that sentence. Why don't I ever hear about those guys? Planes that land safely don't make the news.

And listen, man, if you don't like me,

yeah,

because of me, that's on me. This is who I am. I'm not going to change. But, but if you don't like me because of the position God has put me in, that's on you.

Yeah, that's right.

Like, what does that have to do with me? So let

me give an example. This is my last question. So Joby, I'll just, let me phrase it like this. Megachurches, they're just all about the money. Joby, if you're just all, 11:22 is just all about money. I know this because I know how it works. You are spending and receiving not a single dime, enormous amounts of money, time, energy, resources so that you can be discipling people in correctional facilities. That's politically correct term for prisons. All over the country. You receive— you spend an enormous amount and receive not a dime. Why?

Hmm. We have received a little bit of money. One time a guy made a commitment of $2.25. Think about that. I don't know how hard it is to make $2.25 in the prison, but he did it. He was paying us with his canteen money. So that's about what it is. I think that's the income so far. Here's the thing, because we're a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus. That's right. And there's no asterisk, and all means all. And every one of those men and women is somebody's one more. They're somebody's husband, somebody's wife, somebody's dad, mom. And so we moved in, man. We decided to start a campus at Baker Correctional Facility. Part of the reason why, is the guys at Baker have less than 5 years on their sentence, and they're all coming back to Duval County where Jacksonville is.

That's awesome.

And so our, like, state senators were like, if you want to change our city, if you can get a hold of these guys before they get home, make them better men. And then all we do is we just do church. We have a campus pastor, have a worship team comes in. It's just like all the other campuses. I'm on the screen once a year. I preach live from the prisons.

Bro, I watch it every year, bro. I love it so much.

It's our most watched.

So much.

So we go to Baker and we're doing Saturated. We do Saturated in Baker. And me and my friend Jeff Kopp go in there to baptize guys at the end of Saturated. There's about 250 men out of 1,000 in the population that attend that campus. And we baptized 67 men that day. There had never been water in that baptistry the whole time any employee had ever been there. Bro. One of the second, third guys we baptized was the leader of the Black gang. Now, I wasn't super familiar with gang culture in prisons. I mean, I've seen some movies, but I don't know anything. And apparently, regardless of what your actual gang is outside, when you get inside, you kind of just click up by race. And so the leader of the Black gang goes, he's like second or third. We get to 66 baptisms and I do the same thing Coach Lee did. I think there might be one more. And this skinhead white dude, with the cuss word, the whole word, F-U, on his forehead right there. You wanna talk about intimidating while you're preaching? He's got a swastika on his head. Behind this ear it says, if it ain't white, it ain't right.

Whoa. He gets up bawling, and you don't cry in prison. I've learned that too. He gets in the water. I ask him if he's ready to renounce the sins of his past, the ways of this world, anything dark or demonic he's ever been connected to, and pledges allegiance to Christ and Christ alone. He said, yes, sir. And I said, who is Jesus? He said, my Lord and Savior. And I dunk him and he comes out and dude, he's yoked. I mean, he could have killed me right there. He comes out, hands up, soaking wet out of the tub. He steps out of the tub and the guy from the Black gang stands up and they start walking towards each other. All the security is getting weird and they hug. They freaking bro hug in front of 225 men. The guy that leads the Black gang looks at the group and he just goes, it ends today. That's all he said. I'm like, what ends? You ending me? What are we ending? He just said, it ends today. I may be off with a position or two here, but Baker was something like the 2nd most violent prison in Florida.

18 months later, it was second from the bottom. The governor's office, which we have a wonderful governor here in Florida, if you're a thing for things like life and liberty and, you know— Shout out. The Constitution, things like that. His office calls me and says, what are you doing in prison? I was like, we're just doing church. He's like, what about recidivism? I go, that's your problem. That's not my problem. We just do church. He's like, what do you mean? I was like, we show up every week, same group. We just teach the Bible, help people get in disciple groups, take next steps of obedience. He says, you can have every prison in Florida. DeSantis, you can have everyone in Florida.

Bro, he's like a disciple disciple, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

All right, you keep going.

And he's also, I mean, he's an incredible legislator. Like he wants to get stuff done.

I think he might be the best one.

Yeah. Yeah. So we're like, okay, cool, let's do more campuses. So then we start 2 more campuses, so we have 3. And then we start one for a women's prison. And then the guy that was the assistant warden at Baker, the original, Warden Kish, he didn't even want to go, but he just drew the short straw and we held services during his shift and he was the manager on duty, so he had to sit in Well, the gospel got all over him. He gets saved in prison as the assistant warden. He gets credit for the turnaround in the lack of violence. He gets promoted to Marion Correctional Facility. And then he calls me one Thursday. He's like, hey, Pastor. I'm like, what's up, Kish? What are you doing? And he said, well, I just wanted to introduce you to the newest campus pastor of your newest campus here at Marion Correctional Facility. I'm like, say more. He goes, I'm the warden, I do what I want. So we stream live your 7:22 Thursday night service. So that pops off. So they run a couple hundred men there. About 6 months later, he calls me, he says, will you, will you do baptisms here at the prison?

I'm like, yes sir, of course. So I hop on my bike, I head down to Marion Correctional. We baptize, I don't, I mean, a hun— I don't know, a ton of people. I can't remember, 75 or something. Wow. Oh man. You know who number one in the tub was? Warden Kish.

Bro, what?

In front of all of the inmates.

What?

Warden Kish gets in the tub, renounces the sin of his past, the ways of this world, anything dark or demonic he's ever been connected to, proclaims Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, and he gets up. Okay. After this, he starts calling all of his warden friends that he's known his entire life. And now we have 27 prison outposts around the state of Florida that do 11:22 every weekend.

Come on, man.

Because every one of those men are a trophy of the grace of Jesus Christ.

Amen.

And I don't care if you have oceanfront property in Ponte Vedra Beach or you're in cell block D in Marion Correctional. If you put your faith in Jesus, he'll change everything about everything about everything. That's right. And he told me to tell you about it, and that's why I do what we do.

Um, that's like the book of Acts. That's a good place to finish. Pastor Joby Martin, would you pray for the people listening real quick?

I'd be happy to. Josh Halton, I'm proud of you, bro. God has A real unique anointing on your life. And thank you for handling it in such an honorable, biblical way. So you may have critics here on earth, but there is a great cloud of witnesses in heaven cheering you on, bro. Don't stop.

Thank you, my friend.

Let's pray.

Thank you.

Our good and gracious Heavenly Father God, we love you more than anything because you first loved us. Lord, we just kind of sit here amazed that you would use a couple of nobodies from nowhere at just the right time. You would rescue us and redeem us, and then by your grace, put us on the rescue team. God, may we never get over the gospel. I pray it in Jesus' name. Amen.

Amen. Thank you, Joe Martin.

Love you, buddy.

Well, hey, thanks so much for listening. Lake Pointe Church is a movement For all people to know Christ, live free, and change the world for God's glory. If you're already a member of a local church, we want you giving there. But if you'd like to make a donation to help this message go further, faster, it genuinely helps us boost getting out to more people. If you'd like to make a donation, you can text the word give to the number 20411 and then just choose church online from that dropdown menu. To find out more about Lake Pointe, you can visit lakepointe.church. lakepointe.church.