Transcript of 2 Pastors DEBATE If Christians Should Watch Movies About WITCHCRAFT & MAGIC?! | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Should Christians watch magic, witchcraft, and demonic-themed movies?

Here's a key question. Am I truly free to stop? If I love this TV series or this movie series or this book, and I began to feel convicted, do you really think you could stop? If not, it is beginning to have a hold on you. And because of that, I think you should stop.

What you consume most is what you conform to. Romans 12: 2, Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind. Check out your inputs and then evaluate your outputs. Well, hey, Live Free Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas. But the Live Free Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, Man, I wish I could be part of something like this, we want to invite you to take a simple next step, and that is join us for Church Online. Every weekend, we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook, and our Church Online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are a live host in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you, and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, Church Online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point.

We would love to see you in the chat this weekend. And now, enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, welcome back to a bonus episode of the Live Free podcast. Man, this episode is going to be a little different. I'm here. My name is Carlos Orazwen. Today, I'm here with ChatGPLC, Paul Cunningham.

What's up, bro?

What's going on, bro?

You good?

What you doing?

Man, I love. You got the chemo shirt. I got the camo hat.

Let's go, man.

We're going to be hunting pretty soon.

We're going to be hunting?

We're going to be hunting pretty soon. Oh, sure. A lot of people don't know you and I went hunting together last year.

One time?

Didn't get anything.

Nothing?

It's going to change this year, bro.

Okay.

We're going to get you an animal.

Well, I'm ready, clearly.

Come on.

Hey, today is going to be a little bit of a different episode. So for people joining right now, this is not your usual Monday Live Free episode. We're test driving these bonus episodes where basically they're going to be a little shorter. Sometimes it's going to be maybe, I don't know, 20 minutes. Other times it's be 4 minutes. We're trying to pick one, maybe two, but mostly one question, and we want to zoom in. We want to go a little deeper. And basically this is going to be the bonus episode of what did it make it to the Monday Live Free episode. So people know this. Obviously, every single Monday Live Free episode, we ask, Hey, what did it make it to the sermon? Occasionally, Paul, there's a lot more to say, and we run out of time.

Yeah. And so some of these might be questions that we run out of time for because we do. There's so much we don't cover. So even sometimes I've seen the comments, Well, why didn't you guys talk about this? And a lot of times we were going to, but we just ran out of time.

We literally run out of time.

So if there's anything like that that you hear about as we're discussing it on the podcast, man, send it our way. Hey, could you guys bring this up on that midweek? But other times we might take a topic that's huge in the culture that moment or maybe that time of the year, or maybe it's just like what we call an evergreen question, something that people are always asking. And we may dive into those. And like you said, sometimes it may only take us 20 minutes to respond to it. Sometimes, like today, it may take us closer to 35 to 40 minutes, depending on how tricky or nuanced it is.

Or more.

Or you may just make this- I was going to try to trap me.

That's what he said. That's what he said.

Today, Carlos is going to beat me down with the Bible, and it's going to probably only last 15 minutes because I'm going to submit after a while.

This is going to be really interesting.

All it means, what are we covering today?

Before we go there, hold on. Again, we're test driving this. For people joining right now, the way we know this is helpful, if you go on YouTube or Spotify, let us know in the comment section if this is helpful. Also, the way we know, just by engagement, if you want to share, like and comment, that tells us that this is actually helping people. And again, we're test driving it right now, so we're trying to figure out if we're going to do it long term or if this is like, That's not the great idea or not the best idea.

Maybe one more caveat, especially if people have never seen an episode with just you and me. So for a little bit of behind the scenes perspective, when you and I are hanging out, even off the podcast together, we have fun by just literally going back and forth and bantering and debating, often on things we actually agree on, but we're just fighting for fun.

We argue a lot.

Yeah, but for fun. For fun. Sometimes. We went to a cowboy's game a few weeks ago, and I think in the car, we started to talk about two or three different theological topics that we pretty much agreed on, but we were just going back and forth for fun. And so just know, especially, I'd say, on this episode because we've landed in different spots. But on other ones, we're like, Man, Carlos and Paul are Carlos and Paul still friends? Yes. When it's just the two of us, we have a little bit more friendly back and forth, and we make some jokes at each other's expense. Just know that's not when it's just the two of us.

And if you have a question that you're like, Paul, you said this, but if you have a question that you would like us to cover for future test drives, let us know in the comment section as well. Okay, so here's where we're going today. Here's the question. And by the way, I didn't check with you before, so maybe you disagree with the frame of the question, but I think it's fine. The question for today, as we are in the month of Halloween, is, should Christians watch Magic Magic, witchcraft, and demonic-themed movies.

Okay, here we go. Is that a fair question? Movies that have magic and witchcraft. So movies like?

Harry Potter.

Harry Potter. That's a big one. We may have been frame it around, Should Christians watch Harry Potter? That may be an easy one to pick on. But there's a movie coming out next month called, I think, Hext.

Hext.

Things like that. But you also got Wicked. Wicked. Kids' movie is like Hocus Pocus, which is really big at the time of Halloween. But also you've got Magic, where maybe it's not the central thing in the movie, but it is in the movie, like Lord of the Rings, Chronicles of Narnia. So even there, it's not just movies, it's books. So should we watch those? Or in the case of a book, should we read those?

So here's what we're going to do. We're going to first start by sharing some helpful biblical frameworks as to how to think as a Christian, not just about this particular topic, but really about any entertainment, especially, obviously, we're going to focus on Halloween-themed ones. Paul, you will share here what the apostle Paul said in Romans 13:14 on how do Christians disagree well. We're going to take a second, and basically, we're going to pick on Harry Potter and we're going to use it as a case study. I'm going to tell you what I think about it. You're going to tell me what you think. And we obviously disagree on how we see this, and we'll figure out who's right and wrong.

Right now, Even if you're watching this right now, go ahead and vote for where you think each of us are going to land.

You're going to wait for the argument. What are you talking about?

I got to wait for the argument? Okay. I was just trying to drive some interaction, bro. But then what we're going to do at the end, and I think if we stick around for this because there's going to be some people that probably want to line up with you and more like with me. By the way, that's part of what we want to show that that's okay. But what we're both going to do at the end is say, hey, regardless of where you land on this, whether you're coming just for yourself or as a parent, we're going to give some good questions and thoughts about, hey, here's some things you need to be thinking about when you're about what you should watch, read, take in. We're going to land on that at the end to say, hey, no matter whether you agree or disagree with us on some particular things, we can all agree that we should be thinking about some specific things as we're watching what we watch.

If we have time, we're going to rapid fire real quick some popular movies just goes yes or no. And it's going to be fun if we have time. And then we're going to close with pastoral thoughts as well. So let me start here, Paul. Let me share one of the most helpful frameworks that I think I've heard on really Christians and culture culture and how to see entertainment and culture in general. That's good. So I'm pretty sure I heard this from Pastor Mark Driskill, I think over 10, 15-ish years.

Yeah, maybe. I think I heard around 15 to 20 years ago.

I've heard other people share it. This is who I heard it from first. So if you're a Christian, here's what you need to know. When it comes to culture, you can do three things. You can reject, receive, or redeem. So let me explain real quick what these mean. So one, if you're a Christian, we reject what is sinful. Ephesians 5:1 verse 11 says, Hey, take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. Which, by the way, this is what I'm hoping to do today. Paul might disagree, but that's okay. Let me give you an example. So obviously, the Bible says, Some things are sin. Sin separates you from God. And so, again, sexual immorality, gossip, false religion. If something is inconsistent with who you are as a Christian, it's okay to reject those things.

Can I give an example? The idea here is that even if in a particular culture it is acceptable, we as Christians have to reject it. And by the way, this is a dilemma that Christians have had to face since the beginning. I read a book in the last couple of years on this of how different heirs of Christians had to wrestle with different things. And one, in the early Roman Empire, it was very common for men and women to bathed together in the same spot naked, nude. And a bishop, actually- Who did this? In the early Roman Empire, this was a very common thing, if men and women bathed in the same place as completely naked. A bishop wrote a letter basically to Christians saying, We do not do that. That is impossible for us. We reject We reject that. So it's not that they rejected everything from Roman culture, but they said, Hey, that particular thing we reject. So at every point in history and in every culture around the world, Christians have to say, Hey, there might be elements of the culture that even if they think it's acceptable, we can't accept it.

We have to reject it. Okay, so there's reject.

We reject what is sinful. Number two, we receive what is good. Philippians 4:8 says, Whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, think about these things. So as Christians, man, we believe God is good. We believe his creation is good. And we like beauty, creativity, truth, excellence, and goodness wherever we can find it. Even if it's not necessarily explicitly a quote unquote Christian thing, if it is true, if it is beautiful, if it is excellent, it's from God. And so we receive what is good. Any other thoughts on that?

No, that's a good one. Great. Number two. That's usually the easy one.

We reject what is sinful, we receive what is good. And number three, we redeem what can be used for God's glory. So this is my favorite passage Which of all time in scripture, 1 Corinthians 10:31 says, Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, you do it for the glory of God. So something that was not necessarily originally meant for good has the potential of being used for a different purpose, and that's called redeeming something. So for example, social media. People could look at social media right now and be like, Man, that's a terrible place to be at. It's hurting society. And it's true, there's a bunch of things from social media that can be detrimental to a society and to a generation. And yet I believe Christians have a responsibility to get in there and redeem the purpose of social media. So what people use the Internet or social media for things that are evil, Christians can get in there and use them for things that are good. That's called redeeming something.

And what's tricky about the redeeming category, and this actually leads well into our next helpful framework to keep in the back of our minds as we're discussing today's question, is that reject is usually pretty obvious in terms of what we have to reject.

Receive is- Although not so much for some, but it's It gets me to this.

Receive is usually pretty obvious. I don't have to pray whether I should receive a beautiful national park. It's beautiful. God made it for me. I can go and enjoy it. That's right. Redeem, though, usually has a mix of both good and bad. And so we might have to reject part of what is bad, but then we can receive part of what is good or change it and redeem it. So you gave some good examples, but another one, and we might refer to this again later in this episode, is the apostle Paul in the Book of Acts quotes a pagan poet who writes a poem, and in this poem, it says, We are his offspring. Here's the tricky thing. The poet in the original context was referring to Zeus, a pagan God, which, by the way, Paul says in other parts of the Bible that these pagan deities are actually demons. And so he takes that and you think, Okay, that's bad. Is Paul advocating that we believe in Zeus and worship? No. Instead, what he's saying is, Hey, your own poets have said that we are God's offspring. He's like, in a sense, you're right, but in another sense, he said, Hey, you're wrong.

It's not Jesús. It's actually the true and living God that I'm here to proclaim to you. So that's an example of how Paul could actually take something that had a lot of bad in it, but redeem it and end up using it for good. But here's the tricky thing.

And he uses it to share the gospel, by the way.

Yes.

He's telling people about Jesus.

Yes. He literally uses it. What's tricky about this one is that there might be certain things that some Christians are more comfortable redeeming that others aren't. That leads us into another helpful framework in terms of how we have these discussions and why sometimes it can be really tough for people to have them. And that is, man, Christians have to figure out some certain ethical dilemmas and that there are some places in scripture where says things that are very clear, Hey, we should do this or we should not do that. In other places in scripture, it actually leaves it open that some Christians may be feel convicted not to do something, but another Christian can do the same thing. In fact, what makes this most tricky is that this is actually chapter after chapter in the Book of Romans, one chapter after another. I've got some verses for us that we'll put up on the screen for those who are watching via video. For those who aren't, you can just listen along. In Romans 13, Paul gives a list of instructions of things that, Hey, there's no room for debate. We can't agree to disagree. 3, this is just it.

It says, Let us walk properly is in the daytime, not in orgies, in other words, don't go have an orgy, don't get to debate that, or drunkenness, not in sexual morality and sensuality. But then what I love is, at first, it's talking about very obvious sins that most people would agree on. But then he says also not in quarreling or jealousy, what some people would think of as low-level sense. He's like, Hey, there's no space for that. And so even, guess what? If you say, Hey, well, my conscience doesn't convict me of those things, the apostle Paul and God, through the apostle Paul, say, I don't care. You don't get to do those things. Those are off limits for us as Christians. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh to gratify its desire. So in Romans 13, we get very specific things we can't do. Go one chapter over, and even Pastor Josh said, I believe in a recent podcast and sermon, we have to remember in the original text, there were no chapters and verses. So this is literally just a few verses later. Paul says this, As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.

One person, in this case, one Christian, believes he may eat anything, including meat, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats. So you had some Christians who they thought they could eat whatever they want. Another group thought that if you ate meat or a specific kind of meat, you were sinning. And so you had one group who is passing judgment. The other is saying, Hey, you guys are sinning for eating this. The other group is saying, Well, whatever. We're free in Christ, and you're a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites. And so it can be hard. There's some areas that are very clear that no Christians should do. There's other areas that we call areas ideas of conscience, where it might be wrong for you to do it if your conscience is convicting you of it, but that doesn't make it wrong for everyone to do it. Following so far. So can you actually give some examples of these? Please do. For example, let's even go to what it says here in Romans 13.

Carlos, is it a sin to get drunk?

Yes.

Okay. Is it a sin to have a drink?

Not necessarily.

Why do you say not necessarily?

Because the Bible doesn't say that having a drink is a sin.

Yeah. But for some people, if their conscience convicts them that they shouldn't drink, either because they have a history with alcohol or just for them, they just feel like if they do it, it's wrong. Is it sin if those people drink? Yes. And then later in that passage, Romans 14, Paul is talking to both groups of saying, Hey, if that is you, don't drink. But also, don't judge those who do drink as long as they're drinking responsibly. But then he would also say to those who do drink, Hey, don't drink in a way that makes those people stumble in their faith, or that's wrong, too. Let me give some other examples. These will be silly, but just track with me for a second. I think this also, I'm going to give my hand away a little bit. This will help us track where it gets tricky when we begin talking about works of fiction, either in reading or in watching. Carlos, would it be sinful for a man to kill 77 people out of revenge for killing his puppy, for one of those people killing his puppy? Would that be sinful?

Yeah, it would be.

Yes, it would be.

I know where you're going.

No one should go out and kill 77 people for killing your puppy or your dog.

That's right.

Would it be sinful to watch John Wick, which depicts that very story?

Not necessarily.

Hey, by the way, Are you a fan of John Wicks? It's okay to have a general...

Hold on, bro. I'm about to answer the question. I am a fan. I've seen all the John Wicks, and I do like him.

Okay. By the way, I didn't make up that 77 number. I looked it up, and for sure enough, that's how many people he killed in the first movie.

In the first movie, obviously, because it's a little more in the other movie.

I think his kill count is in the high 400s of all the movies. It's pretty- I would nuance that, but go ahead. No, I was actually going to say, when you say not necessarily, help nuance that, because I think this is going to help set up for some of the things we're going to have to do later with this other question. Why do you say not Hey, it's a sin to go do it, but it wouldn't be necessarily a sin to watch the movie where it shows that guy doing it. Why not?

I'd have to go back and check, but I think when it comes to movies like John Wake or the Equalizer, they're all basically the same movie. There's a sense of justice. The people that are being killed in this case, they're bad guys. There's like, Mafia or people that are deep in corruption and justice. And so here comes one guy and be like, Well, I'm going to put an end to your injustice. And so, again, that would be an example of a redeeming aspect of I love that you said that.

That's exactly where I was going to go. What you just did is you said, I do not approve of murder, and I'm not sitting there gloaring in murder. And by the way, if you were, if you're there as a Christian thing, Oh, I like that he's just murder his people. That would be a problem. That would be a big problem. That would be a problem. That would be a problem. That would be a big problem. That would be an example that if your conscience isn't convicting you, that's an issue.

That's right.

But what you can say is, Hey, there is maybe a broad theme of saying, hey, evil people being brought to justice of some kind. I'm not going to say revenge is good, but that broad theme is good, even if I don't approve of everything that gets it there.

It's the justice. Agree. You're right. And we can distinguish that when we see that, hey, the Bible actually forbids you to take personal vengeance. But there's a sense inside of you that when you do feel like, man, something feels wrong, and then you see that justice satisfied, it's That's a good thing.

Exactly. And so right there is an example of redeemed. We have to take some of the good from it, but also leave out the bad. I'll use a personal example for another one. This would be silly, but would it be sinful for a high school chemistry teacher who gets cancer and needs to support his family as he thinks he's going to die to start selling crystal meth on the side? Would that be sinful?

It would be illegal.

It would be illegal, which then definitely would mean it would be- It would be sinful. And in addition to all the harm that would cause others. But man, is it sinful if I like to watch the show Breaking Bad, which literally depicts that exact same story.

Honestly, I have not seen the full show, so it's hard for me to speak on it.

I would go and say it. I would literally say exactly what you said. You would say no. Well, I'd say not necessarily. It depends. Hey, if I'm watching that and I'm beginning to root for the bad things he's doing or think he's a good guy, hey, that might actually not be good for me to watch. But part of the show, and I won't try to give too many spoilers away for those who haven't seen it. And by the way, I'd be careful to watch it. This is part of what we're saying. This is not everyone should watch these things. Is part of what you get to see is sin's effects. You see him by the end of the saying, this is where sin will lead you. I can redeem that part of it, make it good while leaving out the bad. But guess what? If watching Breaking Bad led people to some bad areas or desensitized their conscience, they shouldn't watch it. So my point is this.

That's where I think we can debate. I'm not I haven't seen Breaking Bad completely. I just saw the first episode and I stopped.

My point in doing this is that it shows how, man, on the one hand, doing certain things can be definitely sinful. But when we start getting into fiction, works of fiction, it can get tricky because now we're going maybe into an area of conscience. I want to actually wrap up this section, then we can get into the specific thing of magic and movies and sorcery and witchcraft and movies. I want to put up a spectrum, I think, on the screen, because when we're talking about areas of conscience, in my experience, people fall on one of two sides. Again, if you're just listening to this, just imagine a line across the screen and there's a line down the middle and into two signs. One side is more restrictive. And even on that side, by the way, there's a spectrum. So there's some people that are extremely restrictive in an area of conscience. So going back to alcohol, it's like, Nope, I will never drink a sip. I won't go into a bar. I'm not going anywhere near it whatsoever. And actually, I'll get back in a minute to some watchouts these people need to think about, not just with alcohol, but with anything.

Other people are more permissive. They don't feel that restriction. It's not wrong for them if they have a drink or let's go to Breaking Bad or John Wick. Some people say, no, I cannot watch those movies. And they would even say, you know what? I don't think anyone should, because for them, if they were to watch that, they feel awful because it depicts murder and violence and so on and so forth. Other people are saying, you know what? I can watch it and I can take the good and leave out the bad. So you have more restrictive people and more permissive people. Here's what I want to say, and then let's dive into this specific topic of the day, and then you get to lay out your devastating case of why I'm wrong and you're right. Why you're wrong. Yeah. All those things. Anyways, here's what I would say, some watch out for people on other side. Again, this is not just for things like, should Christians watch Harry Potter? This is for things like any type of show, video games, music, anything like that.

Rampetado. Rampetado.

Is if you're a person who you have an area of conscience that's more restrictive, you need to watch out for a few things. Number one, that you don't become judgmental of those who are more permissive, that you don't think, Oh, well, those people are sinful. If not sinful, they're definitely not as holy as Because if they took... No, I'm better. Yeah. And also, usually the hard thing is the more restrictive people seem to have more clear Bible verses or principles on their side. So this can be hard for them because like, Well, wait a second. They're disobeying the Bible. You got to be really careful not to judge those who have a more permissive stance on this.

Consequently, on the other side- By the way, we're not talking about sinning.

No, no.

We're permissive. Oh, yeah, I do this single guy with a girlfriend. That's not what it's called.

No, no, no. On the more permissive part, here's the watch out for them. You can also be judgmental. You can think, Oh, those stuck-up self-righteous pharisees. They think they're better. They think you're better than me. I don't even want to ask you if you know what movie that comes from.

No, but it's on an Italian.

That was a little bit of a compliment. Wait, is that- That's not Italian. It's more of a... I'll explain it later. Mafia? Yeah, a little bit of a... Yeah, there's a few movies and references I was referring to.

Anyways- Is that Robert De Nira?

No, not at all. Actually, he may have said that in one movie. All right, we're getting distracted. This is what you and I do when it's just you and I together. I think it is actually. I know what's that. Oh, yeah.

You think you're better than me? Do you think you're better than me? Okay, go ahead.

I hope they think this is funny. Do you know what I think this is? Anyways, here's another issue. If you have a more permissible stance towards an area of conscience, you need to be really careful that you at least do have a line somewhere. Because if you get to the point where nothing ever pricks your conscience, you have one of two options. You're either as holy and mature as Jesus or your conscience is numb. And so if you do have a more permissible stance towards whether it's magic in movies or violence in movies or drinking or whatever it is, at some point, if you don't have any lines you want to cross, that should be a flag that maybe you've gone too far in that direction. But what's fun, though, then, is that when Christians are doing life together on these issues, we may be in different spots. And because of that, sometimes we can have disagreements. And in fact, today, you and I land on different spots, we're in different lines of the spectrum on this issue.

Very much so.

Here's what we'll do. Carlos, why don't you lay out in terms of... If someone asked you, Hey, if I came up to you and I said, Hey, Carlos, can I, as a Christian, or should I, as a Christian, watch Harry Potter or movies that have Magic Consortium, where would you land? What would you say?

Let me just say one more thing on the little chart here that you brought. On the side of permissible and restrictive is the terms that you used. Christians usually tend to ask questions such as, Is it a sin to blank? Is it a sin to watch John Wick? Is Is it a sin to watch Harry Potter? Is it a sin to... And then they'll just fill in the blank. Sometimes, Paul, honestly, that's the wrong question. 1 Corinthians 10: 23, Paul says, All things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful, but not all things build up. And in this passage, he seems to be quoting a slogan that was going around in the Corinthians church of basically saying, all things are lawful. We have freedom in Christ to basically do whatever we want. Paul is saying, Yeah, that's what people say, but actually not all things are helpful, which means something can be permissible. When you look at that chart and you see permissible on this side, you're like, well, I land more on the permissible side because I'm a little more mature on this or that, or perhaps or whatever.

And you think if something is permissible, something could be permissible, that same thing might not be helpful.

We've said this on a recent podcast, but it applies here, too. There's a difference between can I and should I.

That's exactly.

So even as we're getting this conversation, there's a difference we got to realize between can a Christian, but also should you as a Christian do that?

That's right. Which is very important. Now, with that said, before we go into the Harry Potter thing, let me give you four questions that I usually ask. And this does not just apply to Harry Potter. This literally applies to every piece of entertainment or art form that I consume. And I want to be intentional. We want to be mindful. We're not passive consumers as Christians. We are intentionally discerning, Hey, is this good for me? Is this shaping me in a way that is helping me become more like Jesus? Those are questions that we ask. And so first question real quick that I ask whenever I'm consuming music, movies, whatever it is. Hey, number one, what type of content am I consuming? So if you are on social media and all of a sudden you go on X, for example, and you see that when you go on X, people are not friendly, generally speaking. Everybody's like, hitting on each other. Everybody's to own the other person.

No.

Then people are angry and bitter and complaining. All of a sudden you're there and you feel like, man, you start feeling a little bit of anxiety in you or like, Oh, man, I'm now becoming the bitter person. If that's you, I would say to you, Hey, maybe it's time for you to take a little bit of a break from social media. And you're like, But it's not a sin. It's not a sin for me on social media. You're right. It's not a sin. It's also not helpful. Again, so you need to be asking whatever it is you're consuming streaming, whether it's music, whatever it is, what type of content? Is it leading you to become something that you are not necessarily wanting to become? That's one. Number two, what is it glorifying? Somebody might be listening to, I'm just thinking a lot here, for a Taylor Swift song. And And it's catchy and super melodic, whatever. It's a beautiful piece of art, but it's glorifying, betrayal, heartbreak, revenge, glamorizing, brokenness in a relationship. Again, is it a beautiful piece of art? Yes. Is it a catchy song? Yes. Is it fun? Perhaps. Is it glorifying something that basically the Bible says, Hey, that's not who you are called to be.

And so if so, what is it glorifying? Same thing you could say applies to a story or a movie or whatever. Number three, who is the author and what's his intent or purpose. So, bro, people don't realize this. Movies are sermons.

Good.

Tv shows, songs you're listening to and you have on repeat, they're discipling you.

Yes.

Everything that you consume is shaping who you are. It's either forming you to become more like Jesus or deforming you from the character of Jesus. So show me what podcast you're listening to today. I bet you I can have a good idea of who you are because, again, it's shaping you. Now, what you need to understand is when you consume art or entertainment, there's somebody behind it, the creator of it, with an agenda, whether you realize it or not. So I want to know, when I listen to any music, I want to know who's the artist. Generally speaking, I'm curious, especially when it comes to some of these conversations, I want to know who's the director. So let me give you an example. This is pretty recent. So you know that there's a new Narnia movie coming out, right?

Yes, that's true. You have to dive into that one another time. I've got a lot of questions.

I'm sure. So for people that don't know, there's a new Netflix Narnia movie coming out. So what you'll see on social media is that Aslan, and this is confirmed, Aslan will be voiced by a woman and it will be inspired. Aslan will be inspired by David Bowie. So you're looking at that and you're like, huh, this is the Narnia. You mean the one from C. S. Lewis? So you're telling me that the Christ figure in Narnia will be inspired by a British artist who identified as bisexual and experimented with androgynes gender expression. Why would that be? Oh, here's why. Well, the director is the same director of the movie, Barbie. All of a sudden, that makes a lot of sense. Why? Because whoever's behind it as a creator, they have an agenda. They have intentions. They have a vision, a worldview of what is good and what is not good. And so to a degree, sometimes more explicit than others, that's going to leak into the piece of art. And then what we should not do as Christians is to just passively consume it.

And real quick, it doesn't mean we can't take anything good from those who are non Christians, because I said earlier, the apostle Paul took something from that pagan poet who didn't have good motives.

That's right.

Yet what we do have to know is you have to be way, way, way more careful and mindful when that is the case. I think that's what we both say is saying, Hey, you got to really turn your thinking on whenever you're watching that if it's the wrong person making it.

Which leads me to the last question. Is it redeeming that which the Bible might call a sin? So for example, to your point, Paul, what you don't want to do either is basically just see everything through the lens of sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, sin. No, I'm good. We live in a broken world, and the Bible talks about something called common grace, which means that God can use a non-Christian to bring about a beautiful piece of art or a movie that is good or a story. Again, maybe they're not Christian. Maybe they're not trying to point you to the Bible. But within it, you can find elements that are true and worthy, and potentially it's a redeemable thing that you can actually consume and be blessed by it. And it's not necessarily a Christian song or a Christian movie or whatever. So probably the easiest example would be superhero movies. Again, most superhero movies, Marvel, for example, they're not necessarily... It's not a Christian coming together, unfortunately, coming together, that I know of at least, and say, Okay, how do we do this thing and point to Jesus? That's not happening. But we can watch these movies and be like, that's justice.

That's a hero. That's somebody who is accepting responsibility and sacrificing themselves out of love for other people. That is a very biblical, righteous, good, virtuous thing. And so, again, is it redeeming that which the Bible calls a sin? Maybe a movie has elements that are like, Well, we would disagree. We would say that's a sin. Back to John Wick, I would argue, yes, you're killing a bunch of people because of your puppy, that's not good. That's a sin. But there's a redeeming aspect of justice to it. And so that's the question that I want to ask.

And with that, we can finally get your view of Harry Potter and you can begin to put me in my place.

Sure. By the way, he's ready. He's about to trap me here in just a couple of seconds. I know it so much.

I felt so nervous about it today because you definitely have the high ground because you'll show some verses here a little bit. How do I respond to these? But we'll get to that in a minute. I do want to go and give the caveat now. I think we've hinted at this enough, but I at least want to say it now and we'll come back on this end. As we're talking about movies like John Wick, Breaking Bad, Hairballers, you really got to think through, Hey, just because you might be able to redeem John Wick, I'm not going to tell your age, I was about to, as someone in their 30s, doesn't mean that a 13-year-old should watch John Wick. Just because, by the way, even I love- Permissible versus helpful. I love the Marvel movies. I love Avengers's Endgame, Tony Stark at the end, laying down his life. At this point, I feel like Paul is a spill alert. You've had time, bro.

You've had plenty of time.

You've had plenty of time.

Yes.

But I wouldn't show that to a 6-year-old. They're not ready for that. There's too much mature. So again, I want to say in part of this is even though something's going to be redeemed, you do have to keep asking the question, Hey, what is appropriate for each individual person at their individual stage of life and their stage of their faith. I want to go and throw that in there real fast.

Permissible?

Yes.

Helpful.

That's good.

There's a difference.

Can I? Should I?

That's right. Okay, so now let's dive in.

We go.

Harry Potter.

Okay.

Let me start here before I give you what I think about it, where we disagree. So first of all, you got to clarify this. The Bible is not against the use of imagination, epic fantasy, creativity, fiction stories, supernatural themes. The Bible is not against those things necessarily. But it is against witchcraft, divination, sorcery, necromancy. And again, when we have these conversations, because we're not just going to talk about Harry Potter, we're going to talk about some of these other things that also have elements of, quote unquote, magic. And what does that even mean? We have to define what those terms mean. Here's why I don't like Harry Potter and why I would not want to bring that into my life or into my family. My argument, Paul, is not necessarily, oh, Harry Potter has magic, therefore it's demonic. That's not what I'm saying. My general argument for this conversation would be, Harry Potter glorifies something the Bible explicitly condems, and the specific things that glorifies, I believe, is spiritually dangerous. That's my argument. So again, I just want to clarify, it's not because it's got magic in it, therefore demonic, automatically discarded. That's not what I'm saying.

I would say, Harry Potter glorifies something the Bible explicitly condems, and the specific things it glorifies, I believe, are spiritually dangerous. Let me just read Deuteronomy 18: 9. 2: 12. And I want to show you for a reason.

This is where he begins to lay the hammer down on me.

No, no, no, hold on. We're just reading the Bible. And then you tell me why the Bible is wrong. Okay, go ahead. I'm just kidding.

Here we go.

That's a joke. We're having fun.

Here we are.

Deuteronomy 18: 9-12. There shall not be found among you anyone who practices divination, and I bolded that on purpose, or tells fortunes, or interprets omens. Omen or amen?

I say omen, but you say omen. It's fine.

Or interpret omen. What did you say? Omen?

I say omen.

Omen. Or interprets omen, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a necromancer. That's somebody who talks to the dead, or one who inquires of the dead, for clarity. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. Okay. As Christians, when we see those things that the Bible explicitly condems, back to our reject, receive, redeem. We reject those. Okay. Agree with that?

We owe that specific point. We reject doing those things?

We reject the things that God rejects.

Yes.

Great. We're agreeing.

Now, let me- For the record, I don't think anyone should practice sorcery or get into it. Great. That's your clarity. Yeah. That's bad. Just for clarity. That was not clear before. I just wanted to go ahead and say that right now.

We agree on that.

The reason I hesitate is because I thought you were trying to trick me right there. I thought you were playing a Jedi mind game, which, Jedi is just magic without the wand.

But- We're just... Hold on, we're good there.

Keep going. I'm sorry. I'm interrupting you.

We're just reading the Bible. Trina, can you pull it up So here's what I want to do. I want to grab the word and apply it to the world. And in this case, I want to grab the word here, Deuteronomy, and just put it side to side next to Harry Potter. So here's what I would say. I'm just going to go in order. You see those if you're watching on YouTube and Spotify. I'm showing the verse, and I've bolded the words that the Bible uses from the ESV. And then I just want to compare it to Harry Potter. So let me start with Sorcery. The central characters in Harry Potter are explicitly witches and wizards. People know that in Hogwarts, it's a school to actually teach you how to do that. That's in the Bible. So spells and incantations. That's one of the fundamental skills students are taught in Hogwarts. And when they exercise those things, they're seen as heroic. Divination. Divination is literally a class at Hogwarts, including crystal balls, tea leaf reading, palmistry, dream interpretation, attempts to predict the future. Bro, this is like, by the way, when people hear this, it's like, this is real stuff.

This is not made up. Like that list I just read to you is not something's like, Oh, what could we... How could we be a little fantasy star? Those are real things. And so let me keep going. And by the way, I'm just grabbing the words from Deuteronomy. Interpreting omens. That's one of the things you do in divination class. Harry encounters the Grim, maybe you're familiar, which is interpreted as an omen of death. Let me keep going. Charms. It is literally a Hogwarts subject where students learn magical incantations to produce supernatural effects. Being a charmer, a medium, a necromancer that's talking to the dead with spirits. Harry uses the resurrection stone to summon apparitions of his deceased loved ones. And there's an ongoing communication with ghosts at Hogwarts. Now, the problem, somebody is like, okay, what's your point? The problem is not necessarily necessarily that these elements are in this particular story. The Bible also has elements of witchcraft. When you read in multiple parts of the Bible, there's witchcraft, there's sorcery, there's necromancy as well. But the whole point of the Bible or the whole point of those elements being in there is that this is bad for you.

This is not something that we do or we emulate or we copy, or this is not something you want for your life. And so when I see Harry Potter and I see these elements, one, they're everywhere. Two, Harry Potter portrays all of these elements as good, exciting, and heroic. And in many ways, we are invited to love these characters, see them as heroes, and love what they do. And so as a Christian, I reject that. I don't agree with that. And so if that is And by the way, dude, everything changes when you become a parent. One thing is for you and I to be like, well, what about me and you? We're like, that's fine. We can debate that. But then you have a son or a daughter, and then you're thinking, okay, what am I bringing to my family? And it's my job to to figure out what that is.

It's even talking to parents real quick on this, we don't have to put it up on the screen, but that spectrum of more permissive, more restrictive. You and I, as parents, of what we consume, we might be able to be more permissive because we are more mature, but we should be more restrictive with our kids than we are more permissive. So by the way, that should change over time because we have to help them learn to discern for themselves. But I do want to highlight that as a parent. I don't want people to think, oh, because I watch that, they can watch that. Because I read that, because I read that. We got to really make sure and highlight that. Keep going. Keep going.

So let me just wrap it here, and then I'm going to let you tell me why I'm wrong. So when I see all of this, and I know, and by the way, I know we have different backgrounds, Latin America. When you see some of these things, these are real practices in real life. And if this is true about Harry Potter and it's portraying it as something good and virtuous when it is not, why would I even want to expose my family to something that is glorifying something that is spiritually dangerous and that God hates?

Yeah.

I'm going to leave it there. I got more, but I'm going to leave it there.

Paul- I told you all week, and I told you today, I was afraid of this because you got the high ground, bro. I mean, you got the verse, by the way, good job walking through those and connecting to Harry Potter. Like, dude, if we were in a court of law, I'd be in a lot of trouble right now. So tell me. We're in the court of public opinion on all the different platforms this is on, and it's just you and I hanging and chatting. We all have. You want to give you some thoughts, and then I'll keep this tight.

Tell me if you agree or disagree.

I agree on certain things, but let me poke holes. And just follow me for a second.

Wait, what do you agree on?

I mean, I definitely agree we should reject witchcraft and that many of these things are done in the real world. And I would say if someone watches movies like Harry Potter, not just Harry Potter, anything that has magic in it, including Lord of the Rings and Clones of Narnia, and that leads them towards real-world magic. We'll talk about that. We should reject that. We should get away from it. But let me ask you questions. I'm taking you somewhere. Just trust me here. Just trust me.

By the way, for people listening, because I don't know if that was clear, we will address the difference between what I think is between- I think we'll win or weave it as we're having the Narnia and Lord of the Rings in just a second.

Is killing and murdering a real-world activity?

Yes.

Is murdering in John Wick?

Yes.

Does the movie explicitly glorify that murdering?

You could argue that.

It does. And yet you said earlier that you liked it and can watch it.

Yes.

So you made my argument for me.

Keep going.

So my point is, and by the way, and again, just to remind people, you and I would both, I think, say this is an area of conscience. Not a simple yes, no. And the reason is because you've and I talked about this off camera before. Because there are some people, Carlos, who would say, hey, Carlos, because you watch Lord of the Rings and Carlos, because Narnia, you're a hypocrite. Not like people from the more permissive side. There's people more restrictive than you saying, not only should We shouldn't watch Lord of the Rings, and we shouldn't watch Lord of the Rings, and we shouldn't watch Cronoscus of Narnia. And what would you say to them? Well, that's good for your conscience, right? But don't impose it on you.

Sure.

I think you're like me in that we would both say this is a conscience issue, right?

What, specifically?

Can a Christian watch Harry Potter and it not automatically be a sin? Would you say that?

Correct. I would not say that if anybody ever everywhere watches Harry Potter, then they're in sin. I would not say that.

Yes. Just to clarify for people, and It's your clarification. It's that, again, on that spectrum, you're more restrictive than I am. I'm more permissive. And by the way, what I want to clear up for people right now is I'm not saying you're wrong. In terms of you have a wrong view, I'm saying this is an area of conscience. You're clarifying personal conviction of conscience. It's not necessarily on me to say, well, hey, if that's where God is convicting you, it probably would actually not be good for me to twist your arm and to try to change your opinion. So when I give what I'm about to give, I'm more trying to explain why, even though I've heard everything you've said, I still land on the more permissive side. I just wanted to give that context of what this is really about. The reason, and I set you up a little bit, Carlos, I'm sorry, of why I set you up earlier when I asked you about the John Wick scenarios of how you can not do those things, but you can watch them and not immediately be sending and take them in. If you use that train of logic, I think you have to land at the exact same place with Harry Potter, because both John Wick and Harry Potter, Breaking Bad in so many other places, it has things that happen in the real world and can happen in the real world.

In those movies, it glorifies them. And yet, you would say earlier in those other cases, you can still watch them. You said it was possible. You didn't say Christians should, but you said at least, Hey, it depends on the situation. I would argue this is the same case here. We can go back a little bit forth more. And again, I'm not saying, again, for clarity's sake, for everybody and for you and me, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that this is why I still land in probably the more permissible camp because I'm going to say, Hey, if we use that logic in so many other places besides magic, then we should be consistent in its application. Does that make sense?

Yes, we should be consistent, but I do think there's differences.

Okay.

Let me just point out. When you compare Harry Potter to a John Wick, for example, back to what I said before, I'm not sure that I'm seeing that. I'm seeing, Man, I'm glorifying murder here. It's more of a... There's a sense of like, there's a justice sense. There's corruption being eliminated or injustice being eliminated.

Now, again- You're not what the movie is. And how it shows those killings, it's pretty It's doing it for a wow factor.

I think it's debatable. It's debatable that what is being really elevated at the highest level. Is it murder or is it justice? What do you think? Is it murder or is it justice?

I would say it is There's no way around it.

Is it glorifying murder?

Yeah, he's murdering them.

But is it at the highest level? Is it glorifying murder or justice?

This is where I'm going next. This is where I'm going next. What it can do, if you do it, it doesn't matter. I think it's justice, by the way. Is that you can redeem it. I'm going to use the word you use. It can redeem it. I'm going to actually put a pin there and I want to hit something else and then we can keep going on.

But just because we're moving on, I think it's justice that is highest. This is where I would compare and say it's a little different to Harry Potter.

Now, actually, I want to jump to that here in just a second. In terms of those saying, Hey, it glorifies them as heroes, The Lord of the Rings glorifies Gandalf as a hero, and he is a lizard. I've made this joke with you off camera. It's like, so you're telling me that if we showed Gandalf in Wizardry School, it would be sinful, but now because he's a full-grown lizard, all of a sudden, it's okay? My point is to say- That's different. Yeah, Well, but my point is to say they're both doing things that you just said the Bible explicitly says it's sinful, and yet he's doing it, and Christians have no problem with it. I'm more just trying to... Again, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying this is why I'm more permissive in it.

Hold on, before you go So Gandal, first of all, he's more like an angel. He's called Wizard, but if you research it- Yeah, he's a Valar. He's more like an angel.

That's the name in the- Isn't it Maiar? Well, Maiar, there's Maiar. Yeah, he's not Valar. He's Maiar. He's Maiar, higher being a Maya, a lower being of him.

Okay, so he's a Maya.

But he's called a what?

He's called a Wizard.

Yes. He's a staff and says spells.

Hold on. This is why I think it's important to define our terms. Because he's not a human seeking to use supernatural forbidden which is the definition of sorcery. So again, I'm not saying, Therefore, everything is fine. I'm not saying that yet. I'm just saying they're different.

I would say- And- Hold on.

I guess we're now in the conversation. This is the fun part. With Lord of the Rings? You got to zoom out for the whole story. So first of all, you mentioned Gandalf, not really a human, more like a spiritual angelic being, I suppose. Somebody might say, well, it does have elements of witchcraft. You're right, it does. The mouth of Sauron is a living man who learned sorcery. He's a villain. The witch king of Angmar is a human king who became a sorcerer. He's the villain. When token talks about necromancy, domination of wheels, dark sorcery, corrupt spiritual powers, communicating with evil powers, those things are associated overwhelmingly with evil, which that is true.

So real quick, if you put Gandalf in Salem, in the Salem witch trials, and he had a staff and he was doing spells, would they consider a witch or a lizard.

Yes, absolutely.

Would they consider that sin?

The people condemning them?

Clearly they have because they're- So my point is that, yes, there is bad magic, but that could make the same counterpoint with Harry Potter, where people, there's bad magic that's used for bad, but there's good magic that's used for good. And it's the same. Anyways, the next point, here's what I'd say. And again, I'm going to keep clearing around this.

Number one, again, for people watching, I hope what, by the way, we're exhibiting is that we can passionately and funnily disagree and both get some good points from each other, but we can actually talk But I will say, because we need to keep going here, they're different in the sense that one glorifies and elevates wizardry and sorcery. Everything I just read from the Book of Deuteronomy, it seems like it was just straight from the book. What I just explain about Lord of the Rings. Do you agree with that?

Yes, and I could say the same thing for Gandalf. I think it elevates... I'll put it this way. Everybody says this day, You shall not pass. If there are kids who go around dressed up as Gandalf, if you didn't know the character Gandalf, you think, Oh, they're just a wizard. My point is, is it- That's true. So real quick, I'll respond to this one other thing, and I'll just lay out my case of why I'm a little bit more permissible. Again, we're both people who say this is an area of conscience. You're going to be more restrictive. Here's how I maybe summarize your view. You're going to say, generally, you would advise people not to. I'm going to get this a little bit more. I'm going to say, Hey, generally, it's really case by case, both by movie and by person and family. Sure. Before I get to that, and you talk about how it redeems it, those other stories redeem it, a person who's a fan of Harry Potter can say the exact the same thing. In fact, there's an interview with JK Raling who says, There's a lot of Christian imagery in her books that's undeniable, but I never wanted to talk to her openly about it because I thought it might show people who just wanted the story where we were going.

She's saying in this that she had a specific place where we're going. I will say, spoiler, if you've never seen them and you don't want to, not because you don't want to watch him ever, but because you don't know where the story goes, now might be a good time to skip ahead. In the last book, The Hero, the Story, in order to defeat the Dark Lord, the Evil One, gives up and raises from the grave to defeat him. That sounds a little familiar. In fact, I would argue that that is more explicit Christian imagery than it is in Lord of the Rings, and I'm a massive Lord of the Rings fan. Could be. I'm not trying to say then, Oh, it's a Christian book. I'm trying to say that in the same way that you made the argument earlier with John Wick, that you can exclude the bad things because it's pointing to a higher value of justice and you're redeeming it. I'm saying that someone could, not that they should, they could watch Harry Potter and do the same thing. All right, you want me to have a quick case? We'll make this fast.

We'll make this fast. What's fun is, dude, you and I could go for 2 hours. We're going to be so careful.

I'm trying to decide if I should play moderator or if I should be like, Oh, wait, hold on.

I know you're right. I'll tell you, man. There's a guy named Jason Howardon who's on our team who we've actually called sometimes behind the scenes, filming us, like venturing back and forth for fun because it's quite a show.

Okay, hold on. I want to push you back a little bit.

Push back on me. Push back.

Okay. So you're saying, Oh, there's a Christian story, therefore it's okay.

I would put it this way. I'm just going to be real with you. I think that the Harry Potter movies have more overt Christian themes than Home Alone, which I'll say later was a Christian movie. Earlier this year, it was a Christian movie.

Well, great. More overt themes. Okay. So what about... So let's say... I'm trying to figure out what direction I take this one, but let's go here. Where do you draw the line, Paul? What about Hex, for example? Good question. I don't know if you know this. This is like a movie. This thing is coming out with this movie. A 16-year-old girl possesses supernatural magical abilities. She enters, quote, unquote, Hex, secret magical realm inhabited by witches that uncovers family secrets. Her magical abilities become central to her journey, discovering her identity and where she belongs. Where do you draw the line there?

That's a good question. So I can't speak to X because I haven't watched it. Sure. That's part of my argument.

You got the idea.

I would be more reticent just because I haven't watched it. And I was, by the way, more reticent in the early days of Harry Potter. In the early days of Harry Potter, man, it was a big thing in Christian circles. It's like, Don't watch this. This is evil, this is demonic. But then as the story was told, especially the last one, when they see what happens, it was noticeable that Christians became more open to it because it was a pretty overt Christian theme that were in those final movies. With Hexon, but I will say, I forget the name of the movie, but there was a movie that came out when I was, I think, in middle school high school that had Neve Campbell in it about these female witches, and it was not good. It was like, you talk about glorifying bad. It was lorifying bad witchcraft and really based in the real world.

Good witchcraft is fine. Bad witches is not okay.

Well, no, but I would say in that one, it'd be harder to redeem is my point. You got to let me make my point here, my case here in a minute. The world that was depicting in was like, it was not as much based in fantasy. It was more trying to base it in reality. It was way darker. It was just way darker.

My point is- I disagree with what you just said.

There are some movies, but I could reverse it on you. Can Can I tell you why this is a- Lord of the Rings, witchcraft is okay. Even like, there is witchcraft in Endgame, in Avengers Endgame.

Let me tell you why I disagree with that. Because you said this is difference between reality and fantasy is what you said. This is why I think Harry Potter is different than... We joked around before because I said that C. S. Lewis is a Christian author, and token, it was a Catholic as well. But I think that matters. So I'm not saying that, therefore, they can do it and JK Rowling cannot. But I will say, again, here's my concern, and coming as a dad and as a pastor. My concern is some of the stuff that JK Rowling portrays in Harry Potter, they're not fantasy. They're 100% real. These are her words. So this is an interview, JK Rowling in 1999, she said this, and I quote, I'm mentioning a creature or a spell. They're asking her about the book, what's real and what's not real. She said, Hey, I'm not into witchcraft. Good. But then she said, I'm mentioning a creature or a spell that people used to believe genuinely worked. Of course, it didn't, she says. But then I will find out exactly what the words were, with the words, talking about spells or incantations.

And I will find out exactly what the characteristics of that creature or ghost was supposed to be. About a third of the stuff that crops up is stuff that people genuinely used to believe in Britain. So here, in addition to the fact that Harry Potter uses the same terms from the Book of Deuteronomy, the same practices, and the author saying that at least a third is legit, real stuff, I'm like, I will say no to that.

We could go in circles in this. I probably should get to the point where I make my view. My point would be, you could again make the same accusation with Gandalf. And again, literally, you love Avengers Endgame, what's the best scene in Avengers Endgame? The very last end. No, it's at the end of the final fight. What's the best part? There were clips where people were cheered when, guess what? Everybody comes back. What did they come back through? Magic Portals created by who?

Dr. Strange.

Dr. Strange, who is literally termed as Sorcerer Supreme. My point is that- And I would be against that. And by the way, not created by, to my knowledge, a Christian. So my point is, but in that moment, I don't think that all of a sudden you cross in front of you trying to ward off the demonic. I think in that moment, you could sort out. In fact, my guess is in that moment, you were happy that everybody's coming back. I don't even know that you...

On your left?

Yeah. Oh, it's the best scene, bro. My point is just simply this, and then we got to start speeding this up. My point is that, man, even if all those things are true, and I'm about to make this case, it is a fantasy novel and movie. You said earlier, what am I watching? That includes the genre. Because I would ask you, why do you think- With real stuff in it. I'm jumping ahead a little bit for a second. Well, how do you know that some of this stuff? Because they do their research that you had from Tolkien and C. S. Lewis. It wasn't from the real world as well that people actually did those things. So real quick on that, why do you think... Actually, I'm going to wait for that point. Can I just make my case? Please do. Can I make my case? Yeah, we said it would be like 35 to 40. This would be like 50 to 60. We apologize for that one. So here's my thing. My position is not that Christians should watch Harry Potter or should watch any movie, because I would actually, to your point earlier, I do think there's a spectrum and there's certain things that would say, Hey, I would slower to watch that or read that than others.

For example, I would have no qualms with a Christian parent reading Chronicles of Narnia, even though it explicitly has the word magic in it. I would have no qualms.

Although I will say, personally, I don't love it, but I would agree with it.

But Guys, so my point, there's this spectrum. I'm not saying that they should. I'm more saying that they can. I'm going to be a little bit more permissive for you than you, I should say. But here is what I would say. It's a matter of individual conscience, because while these things are forbidden in the Bible and we should not participate them in the world, It is different when we approach fiction. You laid this case out earlier for me when I asked you about John Wick and about Breaking Bad. I'm saying if we use that same logic, you have to apply it to this, too. That a book or a movie can take something that the Bible condems as sin, and then it appears like in the movie, it's glorifying it, but it can be, if done rightly, redeemed. So a few reasons why.

I agree. Just not with Harry Potter.

Number one, depiction and consumption does not equal participation. So depicting something does not mean participating in it, and consuming it does not automatically equal participating in it.

I don't disagree.

Well, if it does automatically mean that, then an actor who portrays Judas is also betraying Jesus in real life.

I agree with you.

You got to really follow that logic for a second. It means that when Jesus tells parables that contain sinful actions and the people hearing those are participating in them, I don't think any rational person would make that argument.

And yet it does matter what you can choose.

It does. But I'm saying it doesn't mean, I mean, automatic participation, because, for For example, can we get the clip of actually when they come back in the portals? So real quick, because if you make the argument, it puts you in an awkward spot. I told you I'd do this if you ever kept coming out strong. So you know where I've seen this before? It's not just in movies. I've seen this scene, I believe, in our church because we showed Endgame. And so if you're telling me that this has been a participation in magic- I'm not saying that. But you see what I'm saying. But there are people who do. My point is that it doesn't necessarily mean it. It can mean that, but it doesn't oddically mean that.

I agree with you.

Number two. That's point number two. Point Number one, participation. I mean, a consumption or depiction does not automatically equal participation. Point number two, we have to watch or read something according to its genre. I would say that Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Crock of Scenario, so many things that we've talked about today belong to the fantasy genre. And in fantasy genre, the idea is you have a secondary imaginative world that does not exist, that contains supernatural phenomena, including magic. And in that style of literature, they're using things from that world to teach us about themes that still apply in this world. And so here's the question I'd ask is, C. S. Lewis and Tolkien were devout Christians when they wrote Chronicles of Narnia and Lord of the Rings, which had magic. Why did they feel the freedom to include things that the Bible forbids?

That's a good question, first of all.

I think I can give the answer.

Go ahead.

Is because they were professors of literature and they knew that fantasy genre is not the same world as the real world. You can use magical elements and things that would be wrong here in the real world, but they can use that to point to deeper themes and stories and things, sorry, themes and ideas that do apply in our world. Now, people can disagree on what I just said. Where's the line? Again, what I'm laying out right now is not why I'm right and you're wrong. Again, that's not the point. The point is this is why I'm a little bit more just permissible because I'd say, Hey, if someone, here's a key thing, can watch Harry Potter, and remember, this is fantasy and not that, Hey, this happens in the real world. Should even, by the way, if it borrows some things that some people maybe tried in the real world. If people remember that, then I say it can then be redeemed.

And yet those two guys, they also tend to portray anything that's, generally speaking, related to witchcraft and sorcery and magic, dark magic, especially, as something evil and bad, as opposed to Harry Potter, that's the opposite.

I think it's equal. Anyways, a final few things. Enjoying the story doesn't mean approving everything as characters do. I don't have to spend a lot on that. We've already hashed this out. But here's what I will say, given all those things, again, this is just why I'm laying out the case that Christians can, not necessarily should, then I would be a little bit more permissive, specifically with Harry Potter. Christian freedom still requires discernment. I think it'd be helpful in a few minutes for us to begin talking about, Hey, even though we land in different spots, I think it'd be helpful for us maybe Because I've written down some questions. In a few minutes, I think it'd be helpful to get some questions to our listeners and our viewers, either for themselves or if their parents or their kids. Like, hey, before, not just Harry Potter, before you let them watch anything or you watch or read anything, here's some helpful questions for you to ask. We'll get to that in a second. But any thoughts on what I shared? I know you actually agree completely, and we've already hashed out a lot of this already, but any general thoughts?

Yeah. And again, I go back to what I said at the beginning. Again, the Bible is not against imagination, epic fantasy, creativity, fiction stories, supernatural themes. Sometimes, Paul, and I think this is important, especially because we talk about Marvel. If somebody asked me, is Marvel okay? I would say it depends. It's sometimes the line between those things, like fantasy, fiction, and things the Bible explicitly calls a sin, they get blurry and they get intertwined now more and more. And honestly, that's where Marvel is going for the nerds out there.

It is true.

So it is harder to distinguish, oh, that's good, that's not good. So then if you mix it all together, then you're like, ah, but then... And so just something to keep in mind. But, man, I agree with you. I disagree on the fact that Harry Potter is the same as Narnia and Lord of the Rings. Disagree there. But I agree in the fact that, hey, regardless when you consume content, man, we are called to exercise discernment.

I think we're out of time to list all the movies. I think it's probably more helpful to get to the questions. But just for clarity, I'm not saying they're the exact same, but I am we're saying they're close... You and I would maybe... I would not land where you do in terms of how far apart they are. They're closer. But I would also... Just clarity. I don't I don't think they're the same. My point is more as, Hey, if they have some common elements, we have to use the same standards for each. And again, we just disagree on that. And by the way, part of why we do this is to show people, That's okay. That's okay. It's okay because, again, this is an area of conscience. And here's what I would tell you, what would be wrong right now? Actually, we use you, me as a test case. What would be wrong, and I don't get this from you at all, by the way, is if you were like, Paul, you're such whatever. In a sense, we both think we're each other wrong. We've been arguing. But where we would be wrong is this, is if You were looking at me saying, Oh, Paul, you're so unholy.

In fact, you're sinful the fact that you held this opinion, and you think you're better than me because of it. It'd be wrong for me to look at you and say, Oh, you up type person. You need to lighten up. It'd be wrong for me, by the way, and I love that you even asked, Is there a line? Because that goes back to our original conversation when we were talking about the watch out street side. I just want to highlight that for people. Now, I think it'd be helpful to give some people some questions to think about for themselves and their kids. What do you think?

Yes, and then I have some additional thoughts. Just to.

How about I'll just give a few questions. These aren't exhaustive. And I'll try to do these a little bit more rapid fire, and then you can end this on a pastoral word. Okay, I'll give you just a few questions for yourself, although this could apply to your kids as well. Anything you're watching, whether it's Harry Potter, Hext, but any other type of movie, John Wick, whatever. Man, what is drawing you to it? What is actually drawing you to it? Are you primarily looking for an opportunity to indulge lust and curity or another sinful desire, or are you looking to take something good while leaving out the bad? How does it portray evil? Does it portray evil as something bad and be redacted? I don't What does this mean, evil acts. I mean the idea of evil in general. What is this encouraging me to admire? What effect does this actually have on me? I'll just be real fast, real quick with me on this. I started to watch Game of Thrones when I was younger, and after four or five episodes in, I had to stop. For me, it was because I noticed that when I watched these things, it was filled with a lot of violence and nudity and just some other bad elements.

I literally just felt awful afterwards. I felt like I'd eaten two extra large pizzas. For me, I'm like, Hey, this is not having a good effect on my soul. I'm going to stop. Now, other Christians might have been able to handle it. I couldn't. For me, that was a conscious thing. I had to put it down. What effect does this have on me? Does this fit with any particular weaknesses or your season of life? For example, we joked about parting movies and drinking movies. Hey, there might be some movies that a Christian can watch and not even think about that. But if you're coming out of a parting lifestyle, a drinking lifestyle, probably not good for you to watch movies or consume content that glorifies that or has that in it. Here's a key question, am I truly free to stop? So if I love this TV series or this movie series or this book, and I began to feel convicted, do you really think you could stop? If not, that is showing that it's beginning to have a hold on you. And because of that, I think you should stop. All right. So for parents, here's just a few things, a lot of more overlap.

Is your child ready to process this? Not just, magic, anything with magic, but any movie at all. I'll just be honest, I would not have young kids watch even the older Harry Potter's because it has some pretty dark things like murder and death in there that they're just not ready for. So you got to be like, is your child ready to process that? When it comes to fantasy movies, can they distinguish fantasy from reality? That's a key one. A few other things, then I'll give a review of some pastoral counsel. What conversations will this movie or show or book require? And are you prepared to have Because I will say it is parental malpractice if this is going to open up some questions or some things in them that could potentially get in them that you don't want in them, and you're not willing to walk through them with it. And I'd even say because of that, are you willing to have conversations with them? Are you willing to read the book with them and watch the movie or show with them? If not, it's probably wise for you to not let them do it.

Probably wise for you to not let them do it. Then finally, hey, how is your child actually responding to this? So let's say you guys begin to watch a show, and again, not just magic, but anything, and you see them responding poorly or it's having a bad effect on them, are you willing to say, Hey, we're going to actually stop this, and we're not going to watch this anymore? I hope those are just a few helpful questions that people can ask us. Just some good filters through what you consume and what your kids are consuming. What you got for a final pastoral.

Just to land the plane here. We had an hour because we thought it was going to be 30 minutes. Hilarious. So just want to echo what you said, Paul. Something might be permissible for one Christian, but the same thing might be unwise for another. So it is that they're like, God, can I do this? And God's like, Others can, you can. It is possible. I think, again, this is a conscious thing. This could be also a specific calling. Like, hey, maybe It could be permissible, but for you and your family in this season, whatever that looks like, God's like, not you. It is possible. Number two, what you consume most is what you conform to. Romans 12: 2, Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal your mind. Again, check out your inputs and then evaluate your outputs. That's good. Right? So if you're wrestling with fear and anxiety, probably not the best idea to bring a horror movie into your life.

Great point.

Probably not the best idea. Again, if you're depressed, you got to evaluate what you're consuming, what you're bringing into your home. Parents, especially husbands, you have a responsibility to figure out, Hey, this yes, that no. Last thing, number three, just because it's popular, doesn't mean it's for you. Hey, man, we're word people. What we just did with Paul right now is we want to wrestle with the text and say, Hey, what does that mean? And how do we apply the text to real life context? And so we're word people, not worldly people. Maybe everybody else out there is a thing that doesn't mean it has to be a thing for you. And so, man, we want to be sober minded. We want to be biblical. We want to be humble. Like you said, this isn't about, well, I'm right, therefore, let me go on social media and tell everybody why they're wrong. That's not what we're trying to do. And And ultimately, we want to be spirit-led. So we are, especially in this season of Halloween, just a final warning. Bro, there's some dark things out there. And again, I would say things are more spiritual than maybe people realize.

And so, again, we want to see the world through the lens of the word.

Love it, man. Well, hey, as we're wrapping up, a couple of things. Number one, we'll make a commitment right now that next week's episode will be 20 to 30 minutes. This is long. We'll only do 20 to 30 minutes to fulfill our word. I'm going to go for it. Over 2 weeks, we'll average out to the right amount of time.

20 minutes?

I said 20 to 30.20 to 30. You got to say at least 30.20 to 35 minutes. Point is, average the first 2 weeks of these together, and it'll equal out to what we promised. Number two, I just want people to say this. What I love is that even though you and I land on two different places, and this man, I love you as a brother and as a friend, as a co-pastor, and I think you're a good and godly man, and I learned from you. So even today, you challenge me with some things to think about. And again, part of that is I just want to say that in front of everybody, but part of that is what I'm hoping that we're doing today is modeling what I hope Christians will do with other people and areas of conscience where you disagree that you can have these kinds of good and uplifting and sharpening conversations. It's going to get tense at some points, but listen, as I like to say, if iron is sharpening iron, sparks are going to fly.

That's good.

But that also just means that you're both getting sharper and better.

And I want to say, man, I agree with you. I enjoy. People don't even realize this is like tame. This is nothing compared to some of the conversations you and I get to have. And bro, I learn from you every single... This is why I enjoy having conversations with you because I genuinely don't have these conversations with other, quote unquote, normal people that are not ChatGPLC. But when I do, I'm challenged and I'm like, Man, this guy, I need to learn. I'm learning all the time from you. That's my point. And I appreciate. In addition to you being super smart, you're super humble. And I mean that. And you're a great pastor.

Thank you, sir.

So thank you for wrestling with me here a little bit. All right. And yeah, man. That was the episode.

That was it. All right. Been next week. Live free.

Live free, brother.

We'll see everybody next week. Well, hey, thanks so much for listening. Lake Point Church is a movement for all people to know Christ, live free, and change the world for God's glory. If you're already a member of a local church, we want you giving there. But if you'd like to make a donation to help this message go further, faster, it genuinely helps us boost getting out to more people. If you'd like to make a donation, you can text the word give to the number 20411, and then just choose Church Online from that drop-down menu. To find out more about Lake Point, you can visit lakepoint. Church.