Transcript of Is Israel ACTUALLY God’s Chosen People… or just Christians!? | Live Free with Josh Howerton New

Does the Bible command Christians to support the modern state of Israel?

We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. No exceptions. We're not saved by our ethnicity. We're saved by faith in Jesus.

There are roughly 2,400 verses about the second coming of Jesus Christ. Jesus talked about this a lot because he wanted us to think about it a lot.

Well, hey, Live Free Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Pointe Church in Dallas, Texas. Texas, but the Live Free Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this, we want to invite you to take a simple next step, and that is join us for church online. Every weekend we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook, and our church online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you, and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, Church Online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Pointe. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend. And now enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free Podcast. My name is Carlos Araso, and today I'm here with Pastor Josh Howerton and Pastor Paul Cunningham.

I'm gonna make a prediction. This is going to be the most interesting episode we've ever done. That's not hyperbole.

And no tinfoil hats today.

No tinfoil hats, but we can— we could— we could do it.

I was gonna say we could.

Today we're going to be talking about the end times. We will be answering some questions such as: are the Jews God's chosen people? Should Christians support Israel? Is the rise of Islam ushering in the biblical end times prophecies?

Bro.

And we have a special guest joining us later today. Jon Bevere will be joining the pod.

Legend.

In just a little bit.

The first half of the episode is for Tucker Carlson.

And we got, that's right. We're also gonna be reacting to a Tucker Carlson video as well on the subject. By the way, guys, this week Live Free Podcast hit number 2 on the charts.

Show it.

We got a little visual here.

Look at that. Boom. Me and Father Mike.

Side by side.

Father Mike, let's go.

Listen, we're Martin Luther knocking on the castle door of Wittenberg. We just can't get Father Mike.

Someone needs to turn you into AI with the, with the nail in your hand, the hammer and everything.

It's hard to beat those, you know, Oh, devilishly good looks and the trillions of dollars that the Catholics have to throw at promoting their podcast.

When we get there, we'll Photoshop PJ's face on Martin Luther and it'll say, "Nailed it." Nailed it.

Yes, dude, we gotta do that. Oh wait, before we get into all the spicy things, I discovered this week, a Live Free listener actually educated me where the phrase "let's kick this pig" came from. Okay, so wait, before we show this, I didn't know this. So this was a phrase that just like a bunch of the dudes that I ran with in high school, we would say, okay, then I went to camp. Shout out Patrick Greer. I worked youth camp with Patrick Greer as a counselor, and he would say it, and I just thought, oh, this is a rural— this is like a Kentucky thing. No, apparently not. This is a 1996 Kelsey Grammer Down Periscope movie thing. Roll that beautiful bean footage. Here it comes.

All right, gentlemen, let's kick this pig.

And we're done.

That is hilarious.

That's the original canonical appearance.

What year did you say that movie came out? 1996.

So I was a, uh, I think I was a sophomore.

We can tell.

Carlos, our resident, because movies, look at me. I'm a young No, I'm actually not that young.

The lives today are so much better than the '90s. So no. All right, dude, that's hilarious.

Hey, before we get anything else, I also just want to— when we recorded the last pod, we had not finished all the Easter services. So let me just brag on Jesus real quick. 53,000 people attended in person. That does not include our digital disciples at Lake Pointe's insane. But here's the biggie, man. Over 2,700 people indicated a first time decision. Made a decision to follow Christ. And dude, I just sat there when I was done. My body gave out on me because of everything with grandpa's funeral and everything. I sat there wiped out and I was reading these comments of people afterwards and it was just hundreds of comments like this. And I just sat there as a pastor. I was just, my heart was, tears were, eyes were leaking, heart was overflowing. One, our prodigal son was one who raised his hand. It was unreal. He literally glowed the rest of the day. Oh my gosh. Here's another one. As my wife and I sat there, I checked A. So that's like if you weren't there, that's how somebody— I'm already a Christian is what they were saying. I've given my life to Jesus.

He has made such radical changes in and around my life at Lake Pointe. Lake Pointe being our home is one of them. Now here's where it gets awesome. I didn't look at my wife's card, but when Josh prayed for the Bs, that's the people who wanted to begin a relationship with Christ, and I felt her hand raise. I love my job. Uh, my heart cried out to our Father, rejoicing in praise. God is so incredible. Feeling his holy presence every time we step foot in, uh, Lake Point campus is something I will cherish until my last breath. Amen. Come on, Jesus.

Amen.

Praise, praise Christ, bro.

We had so many people visiting as well, literally from like all over the place. Like, I, I think I spoke to people from, uh, Miami, Spain, Colombia, California, Michigan, literally just that weekend. It's amazing. So hey, if you're part of the Live Free Nation and you come visit us in person, we got a gift for you. Come say hi, find us in the first-time guest tent.

As well.

Uh, also, if you want to, we got some merch for you as well. Find it at livefree.shop or text the word hat to 20411. We've already— I think we had over 1,000 hats already.

Are you serious?

Yeah, yeah, it was fun. We got a female hat as well.

I just work here, I don't know what happened.

And, uh, to find our daily Bible reading plan plus the weekly sermon plus an early release of the Live Free podcast plus the discipleship guide, download the Lakewood Church app, text the word app to 20411, or go to Apple or Google Play Store. Pastor Josh, Thank you.

Wow.

Yeah.

The tension right now.

How you feeling?

I'm doing pretty good. I'm 80%.

80%.

I'm 80% back.

We'll take it, man. Welcome back. 80% is good.

Thank you.

Hey, I want to ask you something.

I will allow it.

Thank you. What did it make it to the sermon?

I'm going to make this— so first of all, for listeners, we're going to make this front half. It's actually going to be less than half as fast as we can, because honestly, the conversation with Bevere on end times and eschatology is stupidly good. It's literally maybe the most mind-blowing conversation I've had in years. So we're going to make this front half abbreviated so we can get to that. Let me just say, studying for this message, what we did this week, we're in a series called Investigating Jesus. If you don't know why, let me just, for new Bible readers, people who are listening, the book of Luke is written by a guy that was a trained medical doctor named Luke, had a radical conversion, started following around primarily the Apostle Paul. The book of Luke and the book of Acts, if you didn't this are two parts. It's a compendium of two parts, one story. So it's like Avengers Infinity War and Endgame, kind of the same thing. Both Luke and Acts are written— here's why we're calling it Investigating Jesus. Both Luke and Acts are written to Luke's one more dude named Theophilus, did know Jesus.

And he specifically says at the beginning of Luke, he says, I have carefully investigated all these things concerning the man Concerning Jesus Christ. So he's trying to answer all his buddies' questions. So what we're doing during this series is what are the questions people have about Jesus? And not surprisingly, one of the biggest questions people have is Jesus said he's going to come back. When will that happen? And what's he going to do? That's what we talk about here. That's what Bevere's going to talk about on the back half of the pod. Actually, to keep this concise, I'm only going to share two quick things. So first of all, what we're doing is we're in Luke 20, Luke 20 corresponds with Matthew, I think it's 23 and 24. It's called in Matthew 23 and 24, it's called the Olivet Discourse. Right before Jesus goes to the cross, he's standing on the Mount of Olives, which is why it's called the Mount of the Olivet Discourse. And his disciples ask him essentially like, hey, is now when you're going to restore the kingdom to Israel? Are you going to do it now? Interestingly, Jesus responds with the longest response to any question he was ever asked, and it's about his second coming.

I just think that's interesting. I'll be honest. I'm going to confess something to pod listeners. Honestly, man. So big theological word here. This is called eschatology. Eschatology comes from two Greek words. Eschaton means end, right? End or last. And ology just means study of. So when Christians use the word eschatology, it just means the study of the end. I'll be honest, I have always hated eschatology. It's just not my thing. It's super confusing. A lot of times I'm like, why does this actually matter for my life today? He's coming back. And I would always make the joke, some people say they're amill, some people say they're premill, some people say they're postmill. I'm panmill. I'm going to wait and see how it all pans out. Honestly, just public repentance. I don't think that's a biblical attitude to have. And really studying this week, it really landed on me. Jesus talked about this a lot because he wanted us to think about it a lot. There are roughly 2,400 verses about the second coming of Jesus Christ because, and here's the big idea, the emphasis is not as much on what's the sequence of events, although that's fun to study and talk about.

The emphasis is, in the words of the great theologian Conor McGregor, just let that go. If you stay ready, you don't got to get ready. And what Jesus tells all these parables, like, hey, the 12 virgins, keep your lamps lit. Hey, stay ready.

Stay ready.

And he wanted us to think about it a lot because he's like, hey man, I'm coming soon. Stay ready. Stay ready. Now, Trinity. So here's what happens in this passage. Here's a quick overview. I'm going to call for the rocks, the big stones. I'm going to call for that in a second. So basically what you got in Luke 20:20-28, Jesus essentially divides all of human history into 3 epochs, and Christians are not good at thinking about this. So first of all, he— I'm going to read it real quick. He says, but when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, he's making a prophecy that has already been fulfilled right here. Then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let those who are inside the city depart. Let those who are out in the country enter it, for it is in those days of vengeance to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and those who are nursing infants in those days. I'm going to talk about why this matters. For there will be great distress on earth and wrath against his people.

They will fall by the edge of the sword, be led captive among all nations, and will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles. This is really important right here until what Jesus calls the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled. So what Jesus does in Luke 20 is he prophesies, by the way, before it happened, Jesus prophesies there's going to come a day very soon in his day when the temple would be destroyed, Jerusalem would be destroyed, and the Jewish people would be scattered among the nations. Now, so this first epoch of history was just called Judaism. So what he's talking about is the end of the epoch, E-P-O-C-H, epoch, the epoch of history that was Judaism. And he's saying that's going to come to an end. That happened. Trinity, this is review, so I'm just going to do it real fast. That happened. So exactly what Jesus said happened, happened. I hit this on a pod before, so I don't need to talk about it a ton again. In 70 AD, a Roman military leader named Titus comes, besieges Israel, And literally exactly what Jesus prophesied in Luke chapter 20 happened. So they literally, he said, would surround Israel.

They surrounded Israel. Siege warfare is a form of warfare where they're like, hey, we don't got to fight you. We're just going to starve you and dehydrate you and good luck to you. So they siege Israel or they siege Jerusalem. They cut off all the supply lines. And that's exactly what happened. The Jewish historian Josephus says a million Jews, a million Jews in Jerusalem were killed in that siege. Tacitus, a Roman historian in the 3rd century, if I understand correctly, 3rd or 4th century, said, "Maybe it was more like half that, 500,000." Either way, massive slaughter of the Jewish people. The other prophecy Jesus made was that the temple would not be left with a single stone upon one another. And again, we've hit this before, but if you go with me someday to Israel and you look over the, I think it's the western side, of the Temple Mount. That's what you're going to see. And what you're seeing right there is exactly what Jesus said would happen.

You took that one?

Happened. I took that. Yeah. I took that. And so what you're seeing right there is the Roman army comes in and I don't got to tell the story again, but they literally cast down every single stone. There is not one stone on that Temple Mount ever again.

Wow.

So let me just highlight this. If what Jesus said would happen did happen, then everything that Jesus said will happen is going to happen. All right, so here's what you got. You have the end of the epoch of history known as Judaism. So we'll get into this in a second. What I'm about to say raises a lot of questions. Judaism is done. Judaism as it was practiced is done. It's fulfilled. We are not anti-Judaism. But we are, it's fulfilled. It's essentially, the New Testament word is it is now obsolete. It was a type and a shadow of things to come, fulfilled, Judaism's done. The next epoch of history Jesus calls the time of the Gentiles. That's where we are right now. The reason it's called the time of the Gentiles is because in both the Great Commission in Matthew 28, he says, now I want you to take the gospel to, quote, all nations. Well, guess who all nations are? Gentiles. Gentiles. And throughout the book of Acts, especially in Acts 10, what you have is the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles. So essentially God going, hey man, this ain't just a Jewish thing anymore.

Every tribe, tongue, nation, language. So that's where we are right now. We're in the middle of the time of the Gentiles. And our job during the time of the Gentiles is to see every nation, all the Gentiles come to know Jesus Christ. Then, and this is what we're going to talk about primarily on this pod, Then next, what he says is, after the time of the Gentiles, where we are right now, will come a third epoch of history that we have yet to experience, but I believe is near. And then he says, and there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of the nations and perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear, foreboding what's coming. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in Lord, haste the day.

Yes.

And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads because your redemption draws near. And that is— I just want to go ahead and say this. We're going to talk about this later in the pod. Some people, when Christians start talking about end times, Very frankly, there's some things that are kind of freaky. But the big emotion for a Christian when we talk about end times is like, come on, Lord, haste the day. It's like a wedding day. It's like from the 4 months me and Jana were engaged, all I could think about was the wedding. I can't wait to get to the day when we're finally fully united. That's what God wants every Christian to feel like, oh, come on, man, let's go. I'm counting. That's what the Lord How much you feeling? I'm going to give only one thing that blew my mind a little bit and honestly sent— I'm kind of speaking out of both sides of my mouth— sent a chill down my spine when I was studying this.

And then we're going to transition to answering— there's a lot of questions in our culture right now about the Jewish people. What should Christians' relationship be with the nation of Israel? We're going to answer some of those. And then Paul's going to give a quick overview of what are called eschatological positions that Christians have. We're going to have some fun little spicy debate among the three of us because we have some disagreements. That'll be fun. And then we're going to talk to old Bevere. Let me just say one thing that honestly sent a chill down my spine. Okay? And I'm going to ask Bevere what he thinks about this later, and I'm fascinated. So you want something I deep dove this this week. You want something that'll send a chill down your spine when you're talking about biblical end times? Here you go. If you start doing a deep dive on Christian beliefs about the end times and Islamic beliefs about the end times, I'm going to show you some things that are A, going to blow your mind and B, going to send a chill down your spine. Okay, now just stick with me.

So in John 16, Jesus says about the end, the time is coming when they will kill you and think they are offering service to God. Now, for the last 30, 40 years in America, Christians have been really focused on, man, secularism, atheism. It's a big problem. We got to oppose it. And they're right. But what that verse says is that the final boss in the end times is not going to be secularism. That verse says the final boss is going to be some form of religion. That when they kill Christians, they think they're doing something holy and that their God is pleased with. Clue number 1. Now, number 2, fast forward to Revelation chapter 20, and John is given a vision, an eschatological vision. This is what he says he sees: the souls of those who had been beheaded. Beheaded. He specifically mentions the type of death these people, these martyrs experienced. The souls of those who had been beheaded because they watched Watch this. They refused to worship the beast. In John 20, the beast is the Antichrist. I'm going to come back to that. That's going to send chills down your spine. Now, can I point this out?

Says they were beheaded. There is one religion and one religion only whose quote unquote holy book specifically prescribes beheading as the preferred way to kill infidels. It's Islam. The Quran calls it striking necks. There's only one religion.

Wow.

That does that. All right. Now, number 3, let's go a layer deeper. If you go to 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, Paul is telling this church about what's going to happen at the end. And he talks about something that's called a strong delusion. Now I'm going to read it. Listen really close to how he describes this. He says, the coming of the lawless one. That's another New Testament name for the Antichrist. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refuse to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason, listen real close, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie And so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth, but have delighted in wickedness. Now, what he's talking about right here is what theologians will often call the passive wrath of God. Romans 1 talks about how the wrath of God is poured out on all mankind so that he gave them up to their desires and their delusions.

So one way that God pours out wrath and judgment on a people is when people decide, you know what? I hate God. I don't want to have anything to do with him. In fact, I love rebellion against God. The word of God says that he will not strive with man forever. Eventually what God does is he goes, you know what? You want nothing to do with me. You want to rebel against me. You want to walk away from me. Your will be done. Yeah. Romans 1, your will be done. You get exactly what you want, brother. This says in 2 Thessalonians that in the end, that's what God will do. And a mass number of people will be given over to a strong delusion to believe a lie that the Antichrist promulgates. States. Okay, now can I just point this out to you? There are things that I'm already seeing in our culture right now with regard to Islam that I'm like, the only word for that right there is delusional. For instance, this whole deal where there's this weird unholy alliance between progressivism and Islam, it makes no sense. No, it is literally delusional.

Okay, so I'll This is a side note, but I just want to point— I'm just, I'm connecting dots. Stick with me. So progressivism, these are the people who are supposedly about women's rights, LGBT rights, sexual liberation, free societies, let everybody do what they want.

Okay.

And they're partnering, they're partnering with Islam. So the people who are about women's rights supposedly are partnering with the people who make women wear burkas and beat them if they don't cover their hair. The people who are supposedly about LGBT rights, it's like Queers for Palestine. It's like saying Queers for Palestine is like saying chickens for KFC. It's like the people who are supposedly about quote unquote LGBT rights are partnering with people who throw them off buildings in Gaza if they come out. The people who are supposedly for sexual liberation are partnering with the people who give death penalties to people in predominantly Islamic nations for sexual expression. And the people who are supposedly about free societies are partnering with the people who want bring in Sharia law. Okay, that makes no sense. Do you know what it is? It's delusional.

Yes.

Okay, now dude, here's what this week— here's what, like, I'm studying this and I'm like, holy Moses. If you start studying what, um, in Islamic eschatology, Islamic view of the end times, is called the Mahdi. In Islamic eschatology, there will be an end times messianic figure that's called the Mahdi that comes in and ushers in these end times events that usher in the end of the world and paradise in Islam. Now, what I'm going to do is I'm going to bullet point for you what Muslims believe the Mahdi will do. When I read these, if you are a Bible-aware Christian, you're going to have a whole bunch of flashing red lights in your head going, whoa, whoa, whoa, that sounds familiar. And I'm gonna tell you why here in a second. So in Islamic eschatology, the Mahdi will emerge as a charismatic messianic world leader during global chaos. He will take control of the world and destroy everyone who resists him. He will invade many nations. He will rule and reign for 7 years. He will broker a 7-year peace treaty with the Jews. He will conquer Israel and massacre the Jews. He will establish an Islamic one-world government headquartered in Jerusalem.

He will establish Islam as the only acceptable religion. He will come on a white horse. Hello. He will come on a white horse with supernatural power, doing signs and wonders. He will be assisted by a powerful prophet. Now listen, if any of that sounds familiar, it is because it is a precise description of the Bible's Antichrist. So think about this: Islam's Mahdi is the Christian Antichrist. We know that the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6 is the Antichrist. They use that verse to describe their Mahdi. Now let me go one last layer deeper. Now old ChatGPT may disagree with part of this, but that's his problem. We'll talk about that in a second. If you view Ezekiel 38 as an eschatological prophecy, which yeah, if you view it that way, a lot of Christians do. Then what you're waiting for is that at the end, a bunch of nations in the world will gather against Israel. They will wage a multi-front war. Everybody aligns against Israel, and it's going to look like Israel is going to be destroyed. And that at that moment is the moment that Jesus Christ will return. War horse tattoo on his thigh, fire in his eyes, sword out of his mouth, and he will destroy them and put down the enemies of God.

Now, dude, here's what's insane. If you go back to Ezekiel 38, 8. Here are the nations that it lists again. Now it's using the names for those nations in the time that Ezekiel was written. So it uses the names Gog, Magog, Meshech, and Tubal, Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer, and then I'll get this pronounced wrong, Beth Togarmah. Okay, now the modern-day equivalents For those nations are Gog and Magog corresponds to primarily Russia and Central Asia. Meshech and Tubal, that's Turkey. Persia is Iran. Cush is Sudan. Put is Libya. Gomer is Turkey. And Beth Togarmah is also Turkey. Now let me point this out. All but one of those today are Islamic nations. And guess what is the fastest growing religion in the only one of those nations that is not yet an Islamic nation? Russia.

Islam.

Islam.

Wow.

Islam.

Some are predicting that it'll reach 30% of the population in the next 10 to 15 years.

Listen, I'm just telling you, man, I don't know how to read these things without at least wondering if Islam The rise of Islam is ushering in the events of the biblically prescribed end times. I don't know how to do it. Now, listen, Christians, I always want to say this. Christians should love Muslims because God loves all people, wants to save all people. They're Gentiles too that God wants to save. Christians should love Muslims. Christians should hate Islam because it is a demonic ideology and religion that destroys and enslaves the people that adhere to it. It. Okay, so there you go. Listen, man, that'll send a chill down your spine. Wow.

It's almost as if, uh, you know, Paul might disagree with this, uh, but it's almost the same. It's almost as if, like, what we're seeing today, it seems like it's connected to a lot of what scripture has already spoken into and ties into our expectation as Christians for Jesus to come back.

Uh, you're gonna hear a lot about that from Bevere in a couple minutes.

And for the record, my view would allow it.

Oh, okay.

All right, like, my view allows that My view would say it could be, it just doesn't have to be.

We'll go there, we'll go there just a little bit.

For the record, because I feel like I'm already getting ganged up on here.

So here's what we're going to do. We're going to, we're going to address some common questions. And basically, honestly, right now, especially on social media, there's a lot of conversations on really the role of Israel for Christians. How does the Bible say and command Christians to relate to Jewish people? And how all of this really fits into end times biblical studies. And so we're going to have a— we're going to show a video here in just a second for is basically Tucker Carlson setting us up. And then we're going to listen to the video and then we're going to be responding.

I don't know what's going on with this guy. I don't know what's going on with this guy.

Going off the deep end.

That's right.

Yeah. All right. So by the way, here's how this ties in. Let's go ahead and pull up that Tucker clip. Here's the reason this ties in. The reason this ties in is because we just finished reading the passage where Jesus says that the epoch of Judaism is done. So that raises a bunch of questions. And it's the questions we're going to answer. It's kind of the questions that are circulating in our culture right now. So we want to roll the Tucker clip. Let's play that. Let's do it.

There is no chosen people. The chosen people are people who choose Jesus. That is the Christian message right there. It's not an anti-Semitic message, by the way. It's the Christian message. It's the core Christian message. And yet there are many self-described representatives of the Christian faith who are daily sending a different message. And we should be very clear, whatever this is, it's not Christianity, it is heresy.

And among the many examples we could pick, we're going to go with Lindsey Graham. Okay, so go back to the beginning of the Lindsey Graham clip, but first let's pause and answer, because there's something Lindsey Graham says here in a second we're going to answer. Let's answer the first question.

Yeah.

Okay, so what Tucker's saying is he's gone, the Jewish people are not God's chosen people, Christians are now God's chosen people. ChatGPT, what say you? Is it true that in no sense are the Jewish people God's chosen people anymore?

Absolutely not. Tucker's 100% wrong. Jews are 1 million percent for sure still God's chosen people. But we do have to clarify what we don't mean, what we do mean by that. Yes, this is important because I think sometimes you see stuff like this and even the conversations can be so tough. Because we're trying to give really simple and easy answers to really complex questions. We got to give clear answers, but we got to make sure we don't give too simplistic answers. Here's what we don't mean. We don't mean that by the Jews being God's chosen people, that they're automatically saved. No, 100% not. We've covered this before, that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. No exceptions. We're not saved by our ethnicity. We're saved by faith in Jesus.

So for clarity, before you go on, You are clearly saying, as we've covered before in this podcast, modern-day Jewish people who reject Jesus as Messiah but practice faithful Old Covenant-type Judaism are or are not saved.

They are not saved.

They are not saved. That's correct.

They're not saved.

They're not saved.

So we don't mean that they're automatically saved. And to that point, we don't mean that Judaism is a legitimate substitute for faith in Christ.

Correct.

It is not. As you said, it's not a false religion, it's a fulfilled religion. And so it's now obsolete. A third thing we don't mean is we don't mean we'll cover this maybe in a bit, that we have to support everything that the modern state of Israel does. That's part of what he— I think is setting the stage for— I just want to go ahead and say that at the beginning. We'll get into why in a bit. Here's what we do mean. We do mean that God chose Israel to be the people that would bring the Messiah into the world. We do mean that God's covenant promises to Israel are not completely erased. Literally, scripture says this in a way that could not be more clear. Romans 11:1-2: This is the Apostle Paul speaking. He says, "I ask then, has God rejected his people?" Speaking of the Jewish people. "By no means! For I myself am an Israelite." Listen to how he describes himself. He says he's an Israelite, even though the nation-state of Israel did not exist at that time. "A descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew." That word foreknew right there is not really talking about God knowing the future.

That's another word for those whom he He chose his chosen people. Later in that same chapter says, as regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but as regards to a lot— Go ahead.

Let me just— I'm highlighting this. That right there is one of the many reasons in the New Testament we know that Jewish people who reject Jesus as the Messiah but practice a faithful form of Old Covenant Judaism aren't saved. You literally just read it. I literally just read it. You just read it. As regards the gospel, they're still enemies.

And Paul in these chapters, even go back to chapter 9, says, "My heart's desire for them is that they would be saved." That's right. Which, why would he say that if they were already saved? Kind of thing. So no, backs up exactly what you're saying. But since, but as regards election, which is another word that we would just say as regards to their being chosen, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers, for the gifts and calling of God, or the chosenness of God, are irrevocable. Now there's some debate amongst Christians about how those promises are fulfilled. Some would say, nope, the promises of the land have to be fulfilled Others would say no. But what all Christians should agree on is that there is still hope for a mass Jewish conversion as part of God's redemptive plan, which we get to later in Romans 11. So are they chosen in the sense that they're automatically saved? No. That Judaism is a legitimate substitute for faith in Christ? No. But they are in the sense of God still loves them. He chose them and he still has a plan for them specifically that one day there would be a mass conversion of them to Jesus Christ.

That's it.

So if you go back to the original question, let me summarize and make sure— you tell me if this is a good way to say this.

This.

If you go back to the original question, are the Jewish people God's chosen people? The answer is yes and no.

Exactly.

So it's basic logic. The law of non-contradiction is something— two contradicting things cannot be true at the same time and in the same sense.

Exactly.

Well, these are not in the same sense. So they're not God's chosen people from the perspective in a salvific manner. So they are not chosen in the sense that, man, they're saved.

Exactly.

Okay. But that ethnic Jewish people are the— these are roughshod words. I would massage this if I had time to think about it. The ethnic Jewish people were chosen for specific promises, purposes, and plans of God that are still in effect and yet to be fulfilled.

Exactly. And one of the ways— and there's some debate amongst Christians, but one of the ways we know it'll be fulfilled is later in Romans 11, Paul says, "In this way, all Israel Jewish people will be saved. The overwhelming consensus is the belief that towards the end of time that there'll be a mass conversion of Jewish people to Christ. Now he doesn't promise that for every other people group in the world, but he does promise it for this one.

That's right. I'm going to read that verse and then let's move on to the next part. This is Romans 11, starting in verse 25. The reason we're hitting this, if you're listening, you may not be aware of this. There is extremely contentious debate in sort of media world right now about this. And there's a lot of really bad teaching like we're responding to right now that's causing a lot of confusion and division. So here's the passage, Romans 11, starting in verse 25. I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited. Israel has experienced a hardening in part. Now I'm going to pause here, and this is why that part's important. In a second, when it says all all Israel will be saved. What hard— it's called supersessionism. What hard supersessionists believe, that's a big fancy word for what's called replacement theology, that really now the church has completely replaced Israel and they're exactly the same in a covenantal sense. The reason that cannot— what hard supersessionists do is when you read the part that I'm going to read here in a second where it says all Israel will be saved, they go, yeah, of course.

But the book of Galatians says that we're the church is Israel now. Well, it's not talking in that obviously in this part of Romans 11, because he says Israel has experienced a hardening in part. It's clearly referring to ethnic Jews. Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in. And then here's the wonderful promise, and in this way, all Israel will be saved. So what most theologians have said is that in the end times before the return of Christ, you will see a massive revival and turning to Christ among the Jewish people. And so many of them will get saved that somebody could colloquially say, dude, it seems like every Jew everywhere is becoming a Christian. It's going to be awesome.

And hasten the day.

Lord, haste the day. All right, let's see the Lindsey Graham thing because that's going to lead to the next question. A word of warning. If America pulls the plug on Israel, God will pull the plug on us.

God will kill you if you don't support Bibi Netanyahu.

That's what he said. Little brother would do. He did.

Like a quadriplegic in intensive care. You're going to flatline unless you support the secular abortion-on-demand government of Israel. That's the Christian perspective.

Okay, there's two questions just brought up, and let's ask them. So let's ask this question. Does the Bible command Christians to support the modern state of Israel? I'm going to start with you, ChatGPT. Carlos, feel free to chime in here.

I will.

Yeah, man. Yeah.

So let's start with Chet Chippalti. Does the Bible command Christians to support the modern state of Israel? And this, let me just set the table. This goes back. Lindsey Graham is referencing the Genesis 12 promise that God gave Abraham and his descendants, that those who bless you, I will bless. So when he says, hey man, if the United States pulls the plug on Israel, God's going to pull the plug on the United States. He's referencing back to the Genesis 12 promise. Bless you, I'll be blessed, that stuff. So Chad G. Balti, let's begin with you. Does the Bible command Christians to support the modern state of Israel?

Well, hey, Live Free Nation, one of the reasons we're so passionate about conversations like this is because we believe real discipleship doesn't just happen in isolation. It happens in relationships. It happens around tables in honest conversations with people walking together toward Jesus. And if you've been listening to this podcast thinking, man, I want more than just content, I want community, this right here is for you. Our next Rooted experience begins Tuesday, April 21st, and this is an in-person only 10-week discipleship journey designed to help you grow deeper in your relationship with God, build meaningful relationships, and discover the purpose God created for you. And so if you're already part of Lake Pointe Church and haven't gone through rooted yet, your next step is to sign up for Rooted at your campus, and we'd love to help you take that step. Just text the word Rooted to 20411. And since our Rooted groups are an in-person only opportunity, if you live outside the DFW area, your next step is to get plugged into a local Bible-believing church and step into a discipleship pathway there. Because here's what we would say: real spiritual growth happens in community, not alone.

And so I want to invite you to real faith, real community, and real freedom in Christ. And now let's dive back into the episode.

You're gonna hate my initial, my initial answer, and that's because I have to answer the question is, what do we mean by support?

That's it. That's important.

It's really important. And again, this is where it gets so hard to have good faith conversations with people, because if by support you mean I have to completely agree with everything they do, then I'd say, well, of course not, because the Israelites in the Old Testament were sinning left and and people shouldn't have agreed with their behavior. And also just, we got to point out, the modern state of Israel is a parliamentary system. And last time I checked, the prime minister has a 45% approval rating. So the own people in his country don't fully support his policies. So if they don't, I sure don't have to as well. That being said—

Wait, wait, before you go on.

No, please go.

So yeah, what you just said is important. So dude, in the same way that if you were in Israel in the Old Testament, during the reign of a wicked king like Manasseh.

Yeah.

Of course you're not supposed to support every single thing that the wicked king of Israel does like Manasseh did. Yeah. In fact, half of the Old Testament is God prophetically decrying incorrect sinful actions that the government of Israel took in that time. So we're obviously not saying, well, you have to agree with anything that the government of Israel does.

I think it's been said too, this is why some apologists would say, Jewish apologists would say this is how they know that the Old Testament is not made-up fiction, because no other people in history would have a book that is holy basically saying, we got it wrong, we got it wrong, we got it wrong, we got it wrong. Prophet after prophet after prophet, literally all over the place, it's a prophet after a prophet basically calling out the nation of Israel to repent. And so there you go.

Yeah, by the way, I misstated— it never says your country sucks, but just like, hey, you're doing— hey, you guys keep doing dumb stuff.

We need to—

that's the message. It's the message.

Sorry, that Passion Translation. Keep going.

It's even better.

No, no, no, not you, not you. You, Chad Giponti, you keep going.

So, okay, with that massive qualifier out there, even though I personally would not equivocate the modern state of Israel with the ancient nation of Israel, I would still say Christians should— I wouldn't use the word must, but I would say should— broadly support Israel in the sense of we should wish them well, We should want them to succeed. We definitely should want them to exist today. And man, when they are living according with God's designs, man, we should cheer them on. And yeah, we should side with them against your thing earlier, Islamic regimes who would want to exterminate them if they could have their way. And so we should broadly support them, but it does not mean that we have to personally agree with everything. And to your point, in the same way there are prophets in the Old Testament who had to call them out when they were going wrong, we should be willing to do the exact same thing. I know that wasn't the most hard answer ever, but I'm just saying that's, that's how I would nuance it.

I think a lot of the times the context of some of these conversations also is basically a little bit of a, hey, we're Christians because we got Christ as King, we're better. And there's a little bit of a, a sense, it seems in some cases, of superiority towards people that have not trusted Christ that are Jewish people. Romans 11, Paul literally warns Gentiles to not look down on Jewish people because even though they may have rejected Christ, Jewish people remain beloved by God. This is what the Bible says: for the sake of their forefathers. And the gifts and the callings of God are irrevocable. So Paul is basically anticipating, hey, you know Christ, you are not allowed to look down on somebody that is Jewish that does not know Christ yet.

That's literally the words in Romans 11, in the— I think it's the KJV— boast not against the branches. In fact, we just read the verse that says, so that you do not become conceited not overstated. It's literally warning readers, hey bro, watch out. You're going to have a temptation to look down on unbelieving Jews and think them uniquely evil. And it's literally warning, don't do that. That's the warning.

Exactly. And the last word I give in this, and we probably need to move to the next question, is I think as people are just coaching some people on how to have these conversations in a good faith way, is if they're being like, no, we shouldn't support them at all. They do evil things. The thing I would often want to ask, what would you have them do? For example, if Hezbollah is just throwing, like raining rockets into their nation, so you would just have them sit there and do nothing? So if people were doing the same thing to us, that's what, like, you would have us do nothing in response? So I think that's part of, we speak in such broad terms. I think it's just really more helpful to say, okay, we don't have to support everything they do, but then what would you have them do? And if you can't give a good answer to that, and if it's not consistent with what you would have every other nation in the world do in terms of defending themselves, you're probably being a little hypocritical.

I'll just say it. So Paul, do you think— so Lindsey Graham is hearkening back to the Genesis 12 promise, essentially, those who bless you, I will bless. And then what people do is they'll translate it to, hey, so those who bless Israel, I will bless. Is that promise still in effect toward the people of Israel in any way? What What do you think? I got thoughts. You got thoughts?

I would love for you to go first.

You want me to go first?

Yeah. And then I'll come back.

Here's how I would say it. Here's how I would say it. I'm going to read. So Romans 11, 5 times uses the phrase grafted in. This is really important. So Paul already read the passage where he says, hey, the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. The argumentative flow of Romans is that none of the promises will ever fail. That's the whole thing. None of the promises will ever fail and none of the promises are revocable. So you'll see some hard, sessionists that'll do this thing like, hey man, in AD 70, what happened is God divorced Israel. He was married to Israel, but then he divorced Israel. And then they'll go to Romans 11 and they'll read passages that say things like, man, some of the branches have been broken off. And they'll go, see, God broke off the people of Israel. And da da da da. What I would say is no, no, 5 times it uses the word that we Christians, we are grafted into the promises that were given to them. So what I would say is that that promise, like every promise God gives, is still in effect. I would say that it refers to both ethnic Jewish people and Christians who have been grafted into their promises.

So I would say that in general, yes, that there is blessing that Christians should expect to accompany blessing ethnic descendants of Abraham. And people get into a million questions about the Ashkenazi Jews and da da da. I'm just like, hey man, here's all I know. The greatest concentration proportion of descendants of Abraham in the world, they live in Israel. I think it's 45%.

It's around 45% of the world's Jewish people live there.

So we are not— again, everybody wants simple answers to complex things. We're not saying, oh, you always have to back any decision that the government of Israel takes. That's literally— no one is saying that. We are saying we should seek to Bless them. Yeah. Agree, disagree, additional comments?

I'm very much with— it's exactly what I say is that on the one hand, again, I'm very always just careful to say, I don't believe that it's the exact same Israel, but that's point two. In terms of how I best fulfill that commandment today is what you said. Hey, 45% of the Jews in the world are in the modern state of Israel. Modern state of Israel, I think, is 75% Jewish. So while I would not equate the two, to me, if I'm going to be generally for them and generally for them just as a people, then it seems like I should broadly— that's the keyword I keep using, is broadly support them and support them in general. But like I said, and be willing to call them out when they're not living up to God's calling on them. And so now I think what Lindsey Graham is getting is just the idea of like, hey, if in terms of pulling the plug on America, I really, if you asked Lindsey, what do you mean by this? Like, hey, God has blessed us as a nation. We should not think that that's going to continue if all of a sudden we oppose them.

I think that's probably what Lindsey would say. So Carlos, what are you going to say?

No, no, you're good. That makes a lot of sense. In these movements as well, in Psalm 122, there's a prayer prayer that says basically you're praying for the peace in Jerusalem.

Yeah.

And so that's also used in connection to the Genesis promise. Um, question for both of you guys: if somebody's saying— well, I've heard somebody say, well, we should, as Christians, we should pray for the peace in Jerusalem and there will be blessing coming your way because of that. Yes, no, agree or disagree?

I'm, I'm pro praying for peace. Peace in Jerusalem is a good— I'm great.

Let your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.

Again, I'm always like What's the alternative?

I'm anti-peace.

And that's where I guess in these conversations, it's like, so what's the alternative here? Like, what do you want me to do if not that?

Yeah, but they would say, you know, like a specific prayer for— like, we don't say, you know, we don't say pray for peace in, I don't know, like Minnesota, or I mean, I guess some do, but you know what I mean? Like, but then generally speaking, they would, they would just ask, oh, that's in the Bible, and so therefore I have some sort of responsibility to include it in my, my regular prayers. Prayers, peace in Jerusalem?

I would say in one sense. So here's my first thought. I would want to think more and massage this maybe, but I was saying first thought is in one sense, yes. In one sense, no. Again, so what I would say is, number one, if you're talking about praying for the peace and blessing on the Jewish people, yes. But when you're talking about praying for the peace in Jerusalem, if you're talking about specifically the parts of Jerusalem where the Old Testament practices of Judaism that included the temple, the priests as mediators, and the sacrificial system, that's all done. Yeah, it's done. I'm using Bible words. You can get mad all you want. It's obsolete. It's fulfilled. There is literally nothing spiritually helpful about any of those things anymore. We have Jesus now.

There you go.

That's right.

Jesus is the temple to end all temples, the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. And we have one mediator between God and man, the God-man, Jesus Christ. There you go. All that's done. It's done.

Exactly. One other thing is I'd say this is like what you do see in the New Testament is while obviously we've just said for this entire time, God still has a heart for his chosen people, the Jewish people. What you do see in the New Testament is a reversal in the sense of it's no longer about Jerusalem. It's about going to the ends of the earth.

That's good, Paul.

And so with that being said, I actually think, let's just contextualize this. I'm a resident of the DFW area, specifically of Royse City. And so I think I should pray prayers of blessing on the places where I live. And so even to pick up though, on what you were saying is I'm not going to pray prayers of blessing on places of sin within our city. No. When I'm praying prayers of blessing, I'm praying that God would be for us, that there would be favor, there'd be economic development, all the things that also his kingdom come and will be done on earth as it would be in heaven. People would come to know Jesus, all those things. And I think that we should, you should do that wherever you live. And because God does have a special heart for the Jewish people. And since most of them, or at least the majority of them are right now within the state of Israel, I should still do that for Jerusalem, for those people. So it's a both/and.

Yeah. And I'll piggyback on that. You even see that in the mission strategy of the New Testament. What's it say? To the Jew first and then to the Greek.

Exactly.

So you even see that heart reflected in the missiological strategy of the New Testament. We're going to prioritize trying to bring salvation to the Jews. And then next we're going to go to all the Gentiles. So the Jew first and then to the Greek. Yeah. Because by the way, I'll just shout out, that is why among Lake Pointe's international partners, Guess what we have? We have a Bible-believing, evangelical, Jesus-preaching church partner in Jerusalem that is reaching lots of Jews for Jesus Christ, to the Jew first. And then we have 21 other international partners among all the nations, then to the Greek.

There you go. That's awesome. We're going to—

Yeah, keep going.

Keep going.

Really? That God loves some people more because of their DNA? That is not the Christian message. That's the opposite of the Christian message. The Christian message is universal. Universal. That's the whole point of it. The chosen people in Christianity are those who choose Jesus. The entire New Testament is that story, and anyone who says otherwise has not read it.

The entire New Testament, but he's forgetting Romans 9 through 11. Like, oh man, it's like the one thing that is like, you just gotta watch out for this. So Tucker started being like really overt about like, I'm a Christian.

Yeah.

2 years ago, and now he's everybody's resident theological expert. You just got to watch out for that.

And as a teaching point is, I think it was G.K. Chesterton who once said, "Most heresies are an orthodoxy that's lost its counterbalance." And so on this as an example, because he actually earlier basically accused other people of heresy, is that what Tucker is doing is he's highlighting one part of the truth, but he's leaving the other part off. So it's actually him that's beginning to wade into heresy. So just a teachable moment for us.

That's good. Let's finish it.

Or is lying.

There you go.

Okay.

Okay.

All right, so what questions have we not answered yet?

Yeah, so here's another one. Is the 1948 founding of Israel prophetically significant?

Let me pull up, let me pull up the passage. Come on.

Yep. Isaiah 66:8.

Yeah. Uh, it's hard to type when everybody's staring at you. Okay, here we go. So the reason, if you're listening right now, um, 66. There it is. Okay. The reason, if you're listening right now, the reason this is a theologically significant question is in a theological system called dispensationalism that we'll talk about actually more on the pod, especially with John Bevere. There is a prophecy in Isaiah 66:8 that especially people from a dispensational premillennial view of eschatology, we just— that's a lot of theological words. Sorry. That they view Isaiah 66:8, and more people than them do—

Basically people that like the Left Behind movie series.

That's all I know. That's a good way to say it.

There you go. Good job. They view the following verse as a prophecy that was made that was fulfilled in 1948. Here's the verse. Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day? Day, or a nation be brought forth in a moment. Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. Now, the reason that people ask this about 1948 is that after World War II ended— I don't have time to go into all the geopolitics of it, but here's the succinct, uh, after World War II, in 1948, uh, I think it's called the Balfour Declaration if I remember right— we looked Look that up. Balfour Declaration. B-A-L-F-O-U-R. Balfour Declaration. Is that what I think it is? It was in 1948, literally in a day.

Declaration of Independence, basically.

Boom. In a day.

Yeah.

After not existing for, I don't know, thousands of years. Israel was reestablished as a nation state in a day. And then I'm going to tack onto this. And then in 1967, I think it was the Six-Day War, Jerusalem came back under the control of the Jewish people, of the Israeli government. So a lot of people look at that and go, man, that was the exact specific fulfillment of Isaiah 66:8. So back to, was it Balfour Declaration?

That's right.

That's correct.

Oh man.

Good job.

It's nice when I get one right. Look at you.

Did you get the spelling right too.

He did.

So go back to the question.

What was your— yeah, so the question is, is that thing that happened in 1948, the founding of Israel, prophetically significant? Basically, does the Bible— does the Bible predict that?

What do you mean?

Paul disagrees with—

it's hard for me not to go yes. I don't know, dude. It's hard.

1900 years of Israel not existing, just like that, in the 1900s it's a nation?

What's wrong with you, Nick Fuentes? Wow! I'm gonna start calling you Nick now. No please don't— that's a joke, that's a joke, that's a joke.

Yeah so a few things here again and this is— I've already said this multiple times— it depends on what we mean by that. So for example do you believe that had to happen for Christ to return?

I don't know, you just answer your own questions.

No no not because God can do anything well but if you say yes then That puts you in a problem because Jesus and other people in the New Testament make it pretty clear that he could come back at any time. So if you're saying that had to happen for him to come back, that kind of lays—

No, no, wait, I would object to what you just said because all of that discourse, Luke 21, they gave, you said nobody will know the day or the hour, but they did say, but I'm going to give you enough so that you know the times or seasons. So it's like, hey man, just like a fig tree, when you see the da, da, da, da, da, So I don't think we would ever say that from the moment of Jesus' ascension until now, nothing had to be fulfilled in order for Jesus' return to be imminent because he gave us signs of the season of his return.

There had to be something. So obviously, for example, the tearing down of the temple and stuff like that, but then I would renew it. So then you're telling me from the year 70 till now he could not return because then he talks like the verse is like, oh, I'm going to come like a thief in the night. So be ready at any moment. Well, if he can't come back until they're reconciled, constituted, then I don't have to be ready if I'm born in between those years. So point is, is I'd say if you mean it had to happen for Christ to return, I would say no. But if you mean that it happening could help the mass turning of Jews to Christ happen sooner, then I would say then yes, it could be. Because if there is going to be a mass conversion, it would seem much more easy for that to happen if they're all located, or at least many were located in one place. But, and God forbid this ever happen. God forbid this ever happen. And this is my own eschatology view. If God—

And you're amillennial.

I'm amillennial. If God forbid the state of Israel ceased to exist in a week, I believe Christ could come back the next day. So on terms of Isaiah 66, a few things. Number one, no one interpreted that way for almost all of Christian history. That's a very new and novel interpretation that it was about the refounding of the Jewish state.

Now here's my objection to what that— So what my little counterpoint to that is, is that it's the— I'm going to read it when I talk to Bavir here in a second, but it's— hang on, hang on.

Say that one more time, Paul.

So that would be a very new and novel interpretation. So for the first roughly 1,800 years of Christian history, Christians would not believe that the Jewish state had to be reconstituted.

I don't think that's true because when this came up recently, I was reading, I think it was— yeah, it was Charles Spurgeon. Charles Spurgeon did believe the nation of Israel had to be reconstituted. That's not the first 1,800 years. Oh, first 1,800 years. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I said. Because actually there was— well, I won't get into all this.

Yeah, because it hadn't happened yet. Right?

Well, so a few things. I want to give some alternate possibilities.

Wait, before you do that, let me finish my point. My counterpoint to that is—

I love this, by the way.

Me too. This is helpful.

We're going to do it more often.

Go ahead.

My counterpoint to that is 1 Corinthians 2 says that all the prophecies about the first coming of Jesus were intentionally vague so that you could, before they happened, would not— basically, here's the gist of it. You go read it later. It's 1 Corinthians 2:7-8. Actually, let me read it. It says, no, we declare God's wisdom a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age, talking about demonic principalities and powers, understood it. If they had, they wouldn't have crucified the Lord of glory. Now, what that's alluding to is that the prophecies about the first coming of Jesus were intentionally vague so that you would not have been able to predict them before they happened. But then after they happened, you would look at it. Yeah. You would look at it and go, whoa, dude, that was that thing.

Yeah.

So I think what I would say to that is it's okay that nobody ever predicted that for 1,800 years. Hang on, hang on, hang on. Because the prophecies are frequently written so that you will only recognize them after they happen.

Exactly. And that is, by the way, a good response to that specific one. The reason I bring that one up is that I think a lot of street-level evangelical Christians in America think that this is just the Christian view. When actually it's a very new and novel one that doesn't, to your point, that doesn't mean it's automatically wrong, but it does mean that you shouldn't just swallow it. You have to ask, hey, why did the same people read these same verses and come to very different conclusions?

So strongly agree.

And so two other possible interpretations for this passage though. So number one would be, man, was there another people? And in a sense, I guess you could say in the same nation that were born in a day in Jerusalem. Jerusalem. Oh wait, yeah, that's called the church. That's called the people.

Yeah.

So that's the thing.

Hey Paul, not either or Paul, not either or.

Okay. For listeners, I always want to bring, because I don't want to assume when Paul's saying that the church was born in a day, first of all, you're right. He's referring to Acts chapter 2, the coming of the Holy Spirit, the birth of the church, Acts chapter 2. Yeah.

Here's the other thing. Hey, what comes before Isaiah 66?

Isaiah 65.

I love that you did that. I was really hoping one of you would do that.

You're a really good teacher. I know.

I've been been doing this for a while. Do you know what's in Isaiah 65, right at the end of it? The new heavens and the new earth.

Oh.

Which happens at the very end of Revelation. And then guess what it talks about coming out of heaven?

New Jerusalem.

New Jerusalem.

Ah, there you go. Is that a possibility?

And it comes in, in what? A day, in a moment.

What's that theological term where like multiple things can be true at the same time?

So there's a few sometimes people use. Sensus plenior is the idea that there is an initial— Sensus plenior.

Look at me, I'm checking my Greek. I don't know what language that is.

It's Elvish from Tolkien.

Sorry, I had to go with the geek thing. So that's the idea of it can have more of a meaning. So like Psalm 22, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" David was talking about himself, but he also didn't know that the Holy Spirit was inspiring him to talk about way more than that. There's also the idea of a telescopic interpretation of a prophecy, that there can be multiple fulfillments and/or that it could look like it's all one thing when it actually could be multiple things or vice versa. Sorry.

No, that's great. I think honestly, those are really good answers. Here's what we know, man. The Jewish these people were scattered for 1,900 years after AD 70. No other ancient people in history has returned to its ancestral homeland after such a long exile and maintained its ethnic identity. That to me seems like—

I think it's dramatically significant. And just again, for clarity, because I feel like I can come off as Debbie Downer on this—

no, you're good, you're good.

It could be in the sense of— this is what I love about— and this is why, by the way, it's one of the reasons why, even though it's a good thing, I actually think, to point out is even though we may come at it from different angles or have slightly different conclusions, at the same time, we really land in a lot of the same place, which this is one reason why we should support the modern state of Israel, because I would say it's prophetically significant in that there is a prophecy at the end of Romans 11 about them being turned. This seems like that is a huge part of it. So yeah, just know that in a sense we come at it from different angles, but we land in a lot of the same spot.

Okay, let me— we're going to go one more here, and then we got John Bevere coming in just a minute. Does the church replace Israel.

No, I don't like the way that's worded. That's hard. Supersessionism is what that's called. Replacement theology that, oh, now Israel doesn't matter anymore at all. In no sense does God have an affection for the Jewish people. The church completely replaced that. The problem with that is it's Romans 11. Again, it's Romans 9 through 11. You have specific promises about about the ethnic descendants of Abraham. And again, the whole argument of Romans is God's promises don't fail.

No.

And so I would say no, does not completely replace.

It doesn't replace, it expands. It expands it.

It's like grafted in. Grafted in. It says grafted in, not canceled or removed or replaced.

Let me read Ephesians 2. We have a few verses, but stick with me. It's really important. Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles— so this is Apostle Paul talking to Gentiles— Gentiles in the flesh, in other words, by ethnicity. Remember that you were at one time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of what? Israel. And strangers to the covenants of promise, having no faith and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus, you who were once far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Now get this, for he himself is our peace who has made us both one. One. And so I would say church does not replace Israel, it expands it in the sense that now the people of God are not just people who are Jewish in descent and who believe, but also Gentiles who actually believe this?

A lot. A lot of people, particularly— isn't it a common Catholic view? I believe.

There's been some, yeah.

I think the Catholics believe that the Jews are a "sign people." I do know that. It's also like, I come from like Reformed theological world, and among hard Reformed team, hard supersessionism is Common. Yeah, it is common. The other thing I would say in response to this, and then we can rapid-fire more questions, is I'll give you another one. Acts chapter 1, the apostles go, hey Jesus, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? His response is not, oh, hey man, hey dummies, Israel didn't matter anymore. He goes, no, no, no, you're going to receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you and you'll be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth. So there's No, no, the answer to that is no.

Yeah, so Eastern Orthodox Church, generally yes, they believe that. Uh, Roman Catholic Church historically have believed that, that was the mainstream view apparently. Uh, Lutheran churches historically, yes.

Yeah, although just for clarity, they would not say that, they, they would not necessarily use the word replace. That word is frankly often put in their mouths by people that are more premillennial dispensationalists.

Last question.

All right, Judaism is a false religion, it has nothing to do with Christianity?

It depends which— I would say it depends which kind.

By the way, that's what people say.

I'm not saying that. Yeah, that's right. You're asking. It depends which kind. There are forms of Talmudic Judaism, and even I'm not aware enough to answer this intelligently, so I'll speak broadly. There are forms of Talmudic Judaism and things like that that are stinking nasty. They're nasty, nasty, nasty. That I'd be like, yep, out.

No, no, no.

And let me go back to what we said earlier, No, this is why Jesus said the Judaism epoch of history, done. So Jewish, again, just want to keep saying this, man. The only way to be saved is faith in Jesus Christ. What I would say to your question is it depends which kind. So the nasty demonic forms of Talmudic Judaism, out. If you're talking about faithfully practiced Old Testament Orthodox type Judaism. I think the better way to say it is that it's not a false religion, but it's a fulfilled and obsolete one. What do you think? Is that a good way to say that?

That's exactly how I would say it. I mean, literally, I was going to say it's a fulfilled religion.

So I would say it's not saving.

No.

It is not salvific. So in that sense, it is—

I think distinguishing a few things here. One is when we use the word false world religion, to me it carries the idea of this is the completely wrong God and its practices that were never instituted by God. Whereas we would say the Jews worship Yahweh and we do too. The practices were instituted by God. But to your point, they've been fulfilled. So the reason I say it that way is I would never want to equate Judaism with Islam or any of the other world religions. It's different. It's a fulfilled religion. The second thing I think—

and this is— let me just go ahead. Here's why that's important. You'll see some people be like, hey man, because Judaism Judaism is not saving. We should oppose Judaism in the same way that we oppose Islam. What I would say is, hey, both of them are non-salvific. You go over there and yeah, you're going to end up in hell. Yep. I'm going to shoot you straight. Yep, you are. But man, they're not symmetrically evil. It's like there's a radical asymmetry between the worldwide effects of these two things.

100%.

Biblical Judaism is the root from which Christianity grew. Uh, Islam came 600 years later, basically denying the core elements of Christianity. Denies the crucifixion, the resurrection, the divinity of Jesus, the Trinity, the need for atonement through Jesus's death, and reliability of the New Testament as we have it. Very different.

And by the way, there were early Jewish Christians—read Romans—who, they were not practicing the sacrifices or anything like that, but they were actually still practicing parts of the Old Testament law. They just didn't believe they saved. They just were practicing their faith in Jesus. So we got to be really careful. Only thing I'd say here in this conversation, because it's another example of how we conflate two different things, I'll do do this fast. We do in these conversations have to be careful not to conflate all Jews with the practice of Judaism. Of the 75% of the Israeli population that is Jewish, half are secular. Yeah, they're mostly atheists. 20 to 25% are very active, but another 20 to 25% are mainly only nominal, maybe like their version of Easter Christians kind of a thing, Christmas/Easter only Christians. And so I think we do need to be careful to not conflate those those two things. That's the only other thing I would add on there.

Last thing I'd say on this is we're going to link to it in the show notes. There's a lot of just misinformation or wild exaggerations or a one side, almost like cherry picking of data to exaggerate the evil of Israel and that kind of thing. First of all, I will say this, let me pull this up real quick. Well, let me just, I will say this. There are two verses in the book of Zechariah that are eschatological, that are end times verses that seem to clearly indicate that one of the signs of the end times is an escalation in hatred of the Jewish people. I'm just going to throw that out there. This is Zechariah 12:3. On that day when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her. I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations, and those who try to move it will injure themselves. And in Zechariah 14:2, I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem. So a lot of Bible scholars will point to that and go, hey man, one thing you need to watch out for is that's going to be a sign of the end, is an escalation in hatred of the Jewish people, which we're kind of seeing in some spaces that we have not seen it before necessarily.

Absolutely. Now, last thing I just want to say is we'll link to it in the show notes. There's a lot of information. You watch the comment, go watch the comments on this pod. You're going to see bots. A, you're going to see bots out the, out your ears and you're going to see some very vicious, like, hope you enjoyed your $7,000. You're going to see that stuff. So by the way, I'm still waiting for that check.

From this video that we did like a year ago. Yeah, that's right.

So we're going to link to it in the show notes. Jeremy Boring, smart smart dude, evangelical Christian. He just put out a 20-minute video kind of going like, here's a really popular on social media accusation about Israel or about our relationship with Israel. And here's what's actually true. And it's very fair-minded and it's all data. We're going to link to it in the show notes. So if you're like a super nerd that's aware of this conversation, you need to go watch it.

That's amazing. We have Jon be here coming up next. Stay tuned. Well, hey guys, thanks for checking out this Live Free episode. Hey, we had John Bevere coming in as a guest for this episode to continue the conversation around the end times, but the conversation was so good it went extra long, and so we didn't want to shut it down. So here's what we're going to do: we're going to release this special segment with John Bevere as its own full episode later this week on Wednesday, April 15th. And so we'll have a special episode with Pastor Josh and of year to discuss end times, what the Bible actually says about Christ's second return, and how as Christians we can be prepared for the second coming of Jesus. It will be great, and we're also going to be answering your questions submitted on social media around this topic. Trust me, you do not want to miss it. We will see you then.